The Day Caroline Hales Surrendered

What happens when the life you pictured is not the life you are living?

On her 18th birthday in Ireland, Caroline Hales survived an accident that should have ended her life. In the aftermath, she encountered something she still finds difficult to define: a sense of light, presence, and a clear internal shift that brought her back toward living.

From that point on, life felt different.

In the years that followed, Caroline discovered yoga, travelled to Australia as a backpacker, and met the man who would become her husband. Together they dreamed of building a family, but the path to motherhood was marked by heartbreak. Miscarriages, fertility struggles, and the devastating loss of a longed-for child tested everything she believed about herself, her future, and her capacity to keep going.

Through it all, Caroline held onto the idea of becoming a mother, even as each loss reshaped what she thought her life would be.

When she stopped forcing a future and began to surrender to the reality she was actually living, life opened up to her.

This is a story of survival, love, grief, and the quiet transformation that comes when life no longer follows the plan you made for it.

For more information about Caroline, visit her website: https://www.carolinehales.com/ 

Follow her on Instagram: @carolinehales_  

Facebook: Caroline Hales - Integrative Energy Healing 

⚠️ Our episodes contain conversations about difficult life experiences. Some episodes include coarse language and themes such as childhood trauma, sexual assault, infant loss and references to suicide. Please take care while listening and prioritise your wellbeing. 

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Production assistance from John Hresc at Sydney Sound Brewery 

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:01

Life can change in a day.

SPEAKER_00 0:03

A betrayal, a diagnosis, a devastation, a breakdown. This is That Day, the podcast where women tell real stories of the moment life changed, the chaos that followed, and the strength they found along the way. No subject is off limits. I'm Jack, a former coronator and impairment coach. And I'm Kylie, once an HR manager, now a published author. Together, we help women tell the stories that matter. By the end of each episode, you'll feel it, you'll learn from it, and carry it with you. Welcome to that day. This podcast contains conversations about difficult life experiences.

SPEAKER_01 0:42

Some episodes may include coarse language and themes such as illness, suicide, infertility, or childhood trauma. Please take care while listening and prioritize your well-being. Help lines are listed in the show notes.

SPEAKER_03 0:58

Today's guest is Caroline Hales. Caroline is an intuitive healer and somatic therapist who helps people see themselves and their lives with greater compassion. With over 26 years in private practice, she brings decades of experience in healing, counseling, meditation, and yoga. But long before this work, there were two defining moments that shaped who she would become. On her 18th birthday, a night that began with celebration ended in a near-death experience that would stay with her for life. Years later, after multiple miscarriages, she faced another unimaginable loss, the death of her daughter. That day brought her to a place of deep surrender where grief, love, and acceptance coexisted. These moments didn't just change Caroline's path, they became the foundation of her work. Today she helps others navigate trauma, loss, and healing with honesty, compassion, and a profound understanding of what it means to rebuild a life. Welcome, Caroline. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 2:04

Welcome. We're so excited to talk to you. Take us back to your 18th birthday that was just a couple of years ago in Ireland. Can you set the scene for us? What was life like?

SPEAKER_04 2:16

So I was 18 in December in the early 80s, and Ireland as it was then was so different to the Ireland we have now. My celebrations circled around pub life.

SPEAKER_01 2:30

Yep.

SPEAKER_04 2:30

So even though technically I was just at the age of legally being able to drink, I remember that it was quite uh common practice for me to be in the pub with my friends in the afternoon. Having crack. Yes, having laughter, you know, singing, dancing. And um I there was a group of us who were all in school together, and we used to go and mostly travel either through um hitchhiking or on bikes, the back of bikes. Well, motorbikes, motorbikes, oftentimes with no helmets, I'm guessing. I'm not sure about the helmets, that wouldn't have been an important aspect of the bike. It was the colour of the shape of the bike, the brand of the bike, and the voltage. They were really important. Okay. And the guy that was and the guys. So there was so yeah, so that was our Sunday afternoon haunt, and it happened that my birthday was on a Sunday. Okay. So we met, and I remember, you know, the fun and the laughter, and where we used to meet was away from my where I lived, so it was about 20k. So I remembered that we came back and we got back into the city, but for some reason three of us decided to go back down there. So this wasn't a formal party that was organized by your family? Nothing. No. So this was m my my ability to to celebrate me.

SPEAKER_01 3:54

Right.

SPEAKER_04 3:54

So I'm not sure why my family hadn't celebrated. Maybe people didn't celebrate their 18th.

SPEAKER_01 3:59

And you're one of many? How many siblings do you have?

SPEAKER_04 4:01

There, I've I have seven siblings.

SPEAKER_01 4:04

Wow. And where where do you come in the order?

SPEAKER_04 4:06

A third.

SPEAKER_01 4:07

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 4:07

Third child, second girl.

SPEAKER_01 4:09

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 4:10

And so in Ireland, I think your 21st is a bigger deal than your 18th. So I'm assuming that's what it was. Right.

SPEAKER_01 4:17

But did you feel at the time that your parents weren't celebrating you and this was a little bit of rebellion, or was this no, I'm just it's my birthday and I'm gonna go to the pub?

SPEAKER_04 4:28

I I think it's probably it wasn't ever a rebellion against my parents. I loved my parents. Yeah. And I saw the big task that they had in their lives with eight children. Yeah. You know, even at that young age, I mean, I was very connected to financially helping out, you know, I had part-time jobs. So it was like it wasn't really a rebellion. Maybe the rebellion was the bikes. Right. The motorbikes might have been a rebel the rebellious part and been with bikees. Yeah. You know, that could have been it. It could have been the drinking.

SPEAKER_01 5:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 5:01

But alcohol was fairly, you know, it that wasn't a big deal in my family, as far as there was no big deal if you were drinking.

SPEAKER_03 5:08

You're Irish. There was no shock. There was nothing like that. Cultural. Yeah. And before you go on with the story, can you tell us what part of Ireland? Just to so we can see. Yes.

SPEAKER_04 5:17

Yeah. So I was born and raised in Cork and in Cork City. I grew up in a beautiful community of people, all with big families, very connected to each other, looked after out for each other. And my mom was one of eight children as well. So we had a great kind of extended family and lots of love for my aunties. So even though my parents were always overwhelmed and had a lot of responsibilities, we found love in all different ways.

SPEAKER_01 5:48

And you were all in, all of you. Yes. Just expectations that you were all helped out financially, physically, when you could. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 5:57

Do you know when you could. And take care of the younger ones. Of course. And plus we we had a family where, you know, friends were welcome. We had other children that would come and be with us and stay with us. And like that was the community.

SPEAKER_01 6:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 6:09

Really. Um, but to be fair, it was also like it was a dark time too financially for the country. You know, we hadn't had the Celtic tiger that came later when I was an adult there. They were tough times. And the church ruled a lot and made a lot of decisions for the families. Catholic? Protestant. Um I was brought up Catholic. And I remember the kindness of people and the generosity of people. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:34

And the spirit of the art.

SPEAKER_04 6:35

Yeah. And the care in the hardships. I remember the women showing us how to care for other women and how to look out for women. Um, you know, in the times that we lived in, like 1981, 82, you know, it was a very different time in the world. Yeah. Um weren't complaining about menopause or no, that menopause might have been a relief. You know, menopause might have been a relief for some more babies, you know, because there was no more babies, because that option wasn't there. So you have to change your lens when you look back, because it it was a different world then.

SPEAKER_01 7:13

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 7:14

And you know, I find value in that because it helps me understand why I love community, I love people, because I grew up, you know, with women who just looked out for other women and cared for them.

SPEAKER_01 7:28

You were shown.

SPEAKER_04 7:29

Yeah, that's what the women did for us. Um, and if you didn't have it, somebody tried to give it to you. You know, if you were lacking in something, then you were certainly, you know, somebody tried to to to support you with that. Yeah. Girls weren't really raised to be educated, to be honest. Like girls were raised to get married and have children. Be the caregiver. Yeah. And to continue that. I mean, I loved education, I loved studying. Um, I got a full-time job when I was 15, like say between November and January. So literally I didn't go to school then, but then I go back and catch up. So I loved learning. I still love learning, you know. I I love the idea of learning about people, but also learning about situations that that I mightn't understand unless I keep an open mind and an open heart.

SPEAKER_03 8:19

Yeah, I just wanted to set the scene because bikes, the 80s, um, the rebellious Caroline getting on the back and riding around, celebrating her 18th. So we're back there now.

SPEAKER_04 8:31

So what I remember, and it is over four decades, you know, but what I remember was obviously having drunk too much, and it wasn't my first time having alcohol or anything like that, but having drank too much, and also there was three of us in the car, and I wasn't driving, I didn't know how to drive then.

SPEAKER_01 8:51

So this is when the three of you came back.

SPEAKER_04 8:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:54

So you'd had a celebration, people had left on bikes.

SPEAKER_04 8:58

And cars.

SPEAKER_01 8:59

And cars, and then three of you decided to go back to the pub.

unknown 9:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:03

Fair enough. I mean, it's your birthday.

SPEAKER_04 9:04

It's my birthday, and um, on the way home, we were all fairly intoxicated, and there was no seatbelts.

SPEAKER_01 9:11

No.

SPEAKER_04 9:12

And we all fell asleep in the car.

SPEAKER_01 9:14

Oh, including the driver.

SPEAKER_04 9:16

Including the driver. Wow. And so luckily for us, I learned afterwards that he woke up as we were going towards a wall.

SPEAKER_03 9:24

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_04 9:24

And it was probably like one or two in the morning. And um I woke as we as the car turned over and went down the side of the road, and uh, the person that was in the back with me fell on top of me, and the pain of that woke me.

SPEAKER_01 9:39

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_04 9:40

And from there, what I next remember was just excruciating pain going right through my system, and this most beautiful light appearing in front of me. And I was out, I was out of my body. I I I knew I wasn't on the earth. I I could feel like I was out somewhere, but it was somewhere that was safe and beautiful and quiet. And I remembered there was a choice given to me of either to stay or to leave and to go further towards the light.

SPEAKER_01 10:12

And that was the leaving to go towards the light was the leaving.

SPEAKER_04 10:16

The leaving.

SPEAKER_01 10:17

And it was a very welcoming feeling.

SPEAKER_04 10:19

Beautiful feeling, calm. I remember the quietness and like I can still feel it as I talk about it. Now it's it's not something that's really foreign to me or left me. It's just I often will get it in meditation where it's just this oneness. And I can't say it was a voice, but it just felt like there was an option for me, there was a choice for me. And I remember right through my physical body, I felt this power come through me and I chose life. I chose to be here. And you like you gotta remember, I was asleep, I was already drunk, and I was a young girl.

SPEAKER_01 10:59

So I this was and and unconscious, clearly. Yeah, but resisting that feeling, that pull and that warmth and that welcoming. How do you how did you do that? Or was it the power that overcame you? It was the power from within me. Right.

SPEAKER_04 11:15

To stop that really it was a deep choice in me to choose life. And that's something that's not left me. Like that's something I I do a lot. I choose to get up, I choose to try again, I choose to live. It's it's it's something that was birthed in that moment that I am still familiar with. Can you explain how it felt in your body? It was like an enormous power. So the I had the pain come through, but when when I came to this, it was just the most beautiful, serene place. And it was quiet and there was light, and it was it it didn't feel like it was nowhere but somewhere. And when I made the choice, when the choice came through me to live and to choose life, it wasn't to live actually, it was to choose life. It was just in it was like there was um a lion's roar, it was just like a full-bodied like through me. And I remembered waking up and climbing out the side of the car and gone up the side of the ravine to get out of the car as it was on its side and to get some help for us.

SPEAKER_03 12:28

So you just had this energy to save your life then. You made the choice and then you did extraordinary things to get out of the car despite the pain, just despite your.

SPEAKER_04 12:38

It just didn't even exist really. It was just more there was this power to survive and go, and and also the intellectual understanding of I gotta get us, I gotta get out of here before it topples or if it topples, and also to get help for the others in the car.

SPEAKER_01 12:55

So were they unconscious as well?

SPEAKER_04 12:57

I don't know. I don't remember. I think no, because we all got out. But I think it was just more the shock. I mean, they might have been asleep, but obviously the driver woke, but it was more the shock, and then I remember a car stopping, a woman stopped and picked us up and brought us back to one of the houses. And um were you injured? My back was injured from I think the impact. Um, my face, my nose was broken. Like I had a lot of facial injuries because I had no hands to support myself. I just literally flopped over. The other thing I remember clearly was I didn't go to the hospital. What? I wouldn't go to the hospital.

SPEAKER_01 13:34

Why? Because you'd chosen life?

SPEAKER_04 13:36

No, because I didn't want to upset my parents. I didn't want them to get that call in the middle of the night to say something's happened to her. Because I mean I wasn't a wild child, but I certainly would have been someone you'd be keeping an eye, you know. So I didn't want to upset them.

SPEAKER_03 13:52

Wow. Oh my god. Did you ever go to the hospital the next day?

SPEAKER_04 13:55

Oh, the next morning, yeah. And did you have breaks? And um, I was actually I was meant to have plastic surgery, but on the day when I did go, they decided I'd healed well enough and that it wasn't going to be that they might have done further damage with just the impact once my eyes stopped. I mean, my whole face was blown up. So I ended up getting out with surface kind of and muscle damage. So there was nothing severely but the impact, the impact of that person like landing on you with landing on me him asleep and me asleep, and just that's something that I have worked a lot on energetically to clear from my body. Because that is lived experience that we store in our body.

SPEAKER_03 14:39

Right. And does it come back occasionally? Does pain ever come back?

SPEAKER_04 14:44

No, no, I I have no pain. That's amazing. Amazing, because I'm sure um my like if I was to get X-ray now, my you know, my neck would have taken a lot of it too.

SPEAKER_01 14:55

Yeah, I'm wondering if you you so you didn't break your back or no, nothing like that.

SPEAKER_04 14:59

I mean it was it was a muscle that he hit. Okay, but I think anyway, because I just remember the pain. And what did your parents on the right side. You see how my hand went like my my body remembered. Our bodies always remember. Yeah. But it's also the memory, it's the imprint of the memory. It doesn't have the intellect to kind of understand what it's about, but it's just an imprint, you know. My poor parents were shocked, you know, they were devastated. They were devastated.

SPEAKER_01 15:27

Were the other two passengers okay as well? They got out of the car.

SPEAKER_04 15:30

Yeah, so they were two boys, men, and so they were fine.

SPEAKER_01 15:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 15:34

They were rugby players, they were big men.

SPEAKER_01 15:36

You had a rugby player land on you. I mean, obviously, listeners can't see Caroline. Irish tiny, like tiny. I would not, I would not like a small child to fall on you, let alone a rugby player. My God. An Irish rugby player, yeah. And toppling down the side of a road. I mean, wow. Okay, so how did this kind of change the way you went on then? Like you just turned 18. You've had this major accident, you've had this incredible life force, really. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 16:06

Were you a kind of believer before that? Were you No, I've always been connected to energy and been able to kind of see it and feel it. And uh it was something that my I grew up with my mother, you know, she was very that was our conversations. We'd we'd talk about those things. So it wasn't foreign to me. But the I suppose what it did for me was that what I seen in hindsight is be before that I was lost. And this this this incident helped me to find myself and my deeper nature and uh brought me on the path towards yoga. Because that was when I, after the pain, you know, when the subsided and also the shock for my body, I went from a real kind of wild child to a very quiet, introverted woman who didn't work. I took time off work, I didn't socialize, I didn't really go out much. I didn't like traveling in cars. I had a lot of what they would now call panic and trauma in me, but and I tried medication and was it also shame?

SPEAKER_03 17:15

Did you feel shame that you were celebrating and having fun in in defiance of potentially, I don't know, I'm just wondering if there was a sense of, oh my god, I I did this to myself.

SPEAKER_04 17:28

I wouldn't have had the awareness. I think what it was was I regretted maybe. That's maybe I was at that level of regret and also confused about like life as I knew it had ended for me, but I didn't know what my life I didn't, I was in between in transition. So I knew that there was something that I'd experienced, and it also kind of helped me to see how precious life was, because things can change.

SPEAKER_01 17:59

Yeah, it could have ended very differently.

SPEAKER_04 18:01

Yeah. And also, I suppose when you look at like taking responsibility for your behavior, you know.

SPEAKER_01 18:07

I mean, you were 18. I know.

SPEAKER_04 18:09

You were young, it's you know, I'd already and I'd already finished school, you know, I had done my final school exams. So it was that transition that I see in young people where they don't know who they are yet, you know.

SPEAKER_01 18:23

And what path did you think you were on that changed? Like you said, you knew that the life you had had now closed, that chapter. So what where did you think you were headed? Just working full-time, you were a bit lost, but yeah, I didn't know.

SPEAKER_04 18:38

I really didn't know. Yeah, and all I knew was I didn't want to stay on the medication because it only worked short term, and that wasn't going to work for me and my personality. Uh it just wouldn't work that I in terms of pain management, pain and also the anxiety, just the anxiety of the panic. I think it was the shock. And so luckily, my mother found a yoga class that was starting up in the city, like that was in January of 1982.

SPEAKER_01 19:06

That would have been incredibly rare, I would imagine.

SPEAKER_04 19:09

A yoga class in Ireland in the 80s. They just had started to bring yoga in. Wow. So I was in a hall.

SPEAKER_01 19:16

Wow.

SPEAKER_04 19:17

And to be. It was meant to be, and she came with me.

SPEAKER_01 19:21

You told her about the light. Um did you tell anyone about that? Because I feel like depending on your audience, that I'm not sure I told anyone about that.

SPEAKER_04 19:30

Yeah, to be honest. Even your mum, who you knew, kind of No, I'm not sure. I couldn't say for definite that was. I mean, the thing was I had survived. Yeah, I was probably just trying to survive and get through day to day about what am I doing? How am I going to manage these sensations that were coming through me and the fear of being on a bus or a car or you know, I mean, I didn't learn to drive till I was 28. I was gonna ask actually, did you ever get your license? Yeah, so I did. Do you know? I but it was in Australia.

SPEAKER_01 20:02

Right.

SPEAKER_04 20:03

Yeah, so so you I had worked out I could walk places and you know, our lives were quite small, so it wasn't like you needed a car like here. Um, but I'm forever grateful for my mother for reading me and understanding me enough and knowing how determined I was even then that I was not I I wasn't gonna do one thing, but I didn't know what I was gonna do. And she was okay with that. Yeah, well, I mean, there was that was who I am. I'm who I was then. There wasn't whether she was okay or not, that was the way it was. It is what it was. You know, it is what it is.

SPEAKER_03 20:37

And so she heard about the yoga class. She found it somehow. She thought, let's go and try this.

SPEAKER_04 20:42

Why don't you try this, you know? Also, for clarification, yoga was like meditation then, and it was Hatha, and it was probably like 90 to 120 minutes of a class. It was in a cold room. We probably had our jackets on because it was so cold, because it was January. Yeah. So it's nothing like the glossy magazine versions. No. But it worked. I can tell you, it worked.

SPEAKER_01 21:07

So, what what about yoga tapped into what you needed at that time?

SPEAKER_04 21:11

It just it calmed my system, which now we call the nervous system. It calmed me, it changed it, it really helped me to come back into myself, but with light. And we end when we used to only go once a week. We went for a while and your mum did the class with you.

SPEAKER_01 21:29

I love that.

SPEAKER_04 21:30

Yep, she did.

SPEAKER_01 21:31

And did she enjoy it?

SPEAKER_04 21:32

Yeah, well, we used to they used to separate us because we used to laugh so much. I mean, if you think about it, she'd five daughters, three sons. So to have a one on one time with your mother, yeah, having at 18 was so special.

SPEAKER_01 21:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 21:45

And I remember she came for the first term. I stayed on. It was very much towards meditation, mindfulness, affirmations, and movement.

unknown 21:54

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 21:54

And so it became a much bigger part. I used to um help out there, take the Money at the counter eventually before I left for Australia. So it became a big part of my next life.

SPEAKER_01 22:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 22:07

You know, so I think that's what I got from it was that I was in a an in a lost place, and then I found myself through adversity. From what I went through and I found myself. And my yoga sustains me to today. I mean, it's not like the traditional yoga we see around now, but I mean I can still do those classes and love them. But my yoga is inside me. It's the philosophy, it's how I look at people, how I care for myself, my breath meditation. That's my yoga practice. Yeah. So it's not something like you do, it's something, it's who you are.

SPEAKER_01 22:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 22:46

It's the life force, the prana.

SPEAKER_04 22:47

Yeah, the philosophy of yoga.

SPEAKER_01 22:49

It started off as a physical healing, really. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 22:52

And then it became much more the integration of body, mind, soul is phenomenal. And phenomenal. Once you get that feeling, you can't ever go back. You can't not have that feeling. And then you need it. You kind of know that you need it to sustain you as a life force.

SPEAKER_04 23:10

Yeah, it's a reminder of our truth inside us. And I'm so grateful for it. I mean, it's it's the meditation in yoga has been my practice right through my life. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:19

You know, these things are much better than drugs.

SPEAKER_04 23:22

Much better than drugs.

SPEAKER_01 23:23

I mean, some I'd say, I don't know. Depends who you talk to, I guess. And each their own. Yes, exactly. You know? So how how did you come to be in Australia?

SPEAKER_04 23:32

I think it's it's like all of my life, it was a step-by-step process, but I really wanted to go to America. I loved the idea of America, but I could never get the visas when they were released.

SPEAKER_01 23:44

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 23:45

And then someone said, Do you know Australia have opened for young Irish people can go there now?

SPEAKER_01 23:50

Yeah, and like all our convicts are here.

SPEAKER_04 23:52

So come, please. And so that was 1988. And so I waited till my visa was nearly up, and I thought, oh, I better give it a go. So I was never engaged to do it. But once I landed here and I came on my own.

SPEAKER_03 24:07

And how old were you by now?

SPEAKER_04 24:09

24.

SPEAKER_03 24:10

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 24:10

So I was.

SPEAKER_03 24:11

Did you come to Melbourne first? Oh, yep.

SPEAKER_04 24:13

Yeah. So I landed in Melbourne and there were local people that were here. And um they put me up for a week and then I got a job in an Irish pub. And perfect. Before I left, a friend of mine was just back from Australia. I was like, I'm going to Australia. And he said, Oh, there's this guy's name. He'll get you a job. I was like, Oh, that's great. And so I had a few interviews, and then I rang this guy and he said, Oh, why don't you come in for an interview? And I was like, Oh, fine. And so it ended up being Paul.

SPEAKER_01 24:42

Wonderful. And so Paul happens to be who?

SPEAKER_04 24:46

My lifelong partner. That's how I'd see him.

SPEAKER_01 24:49

Yeah. He interviewed you for a job.

SPEAKER_04 24:51

Yeah, and he he got me a job.

unknown 24:54

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 24:54

Does this be a little bit the boss? Is this what you're telling me?

SPEAKER_04 24:57

No, no, no. He worked for an employment agency. Okay. And we we got on.

SPEAKER_01 25:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 25:02

We were friends.

SPEAKER_01 25:03

We got But even though Australia was the poorer cousin to America, you accepted that.

SPEAKER_04 25:09

Well, you see, America is the fantasy, but the reality was Australia.

SPEAKER_01 25:13

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 25:14

And so it it's kind of like what it's what we want, but it's what we're meant to have can be different. So I I did end up going to America with Paul, and I went on my own. But there was something in me wanted that, and I was determined. Yep. And I wasn't giving up. And so then it was like, but life said no. So that's that's how I see it now. Is that we can keep going for what we want and keep banging our heads against the wall and get rejected, or we can surrender and go, oh, here it is. And there's an easier route. Yeah. Because I think too, when life's hard and you get used to hard, you look for hard.

SPEAKER_03 25:54

It's familiar. It's a default. I heard recently someone say um swimming against the tide is just like you're feeling exhausted. You're always going against, against. And as soon as you as soon as you surrender and turn around, you just go with the flow of the river and life becomes very smooth and you find where you're meant to go. And you just trust that you'll be looked after. And it's such a nice analogy to think of and the calmness that comes with that. And then if you turn around again and you're going against the tide, it's exhausting.

SPEAKER_01 26:27

I think something move like that. To be determined and don't be put off by adversity. And a challenge is a good thing. And sometimes we find it hard to differentiate between is this just challenging me now because I need to find something in myself to get through it? Or am I literally banging on a closed door when I could just go through the open door?

SPEAKER_04 26:48

And I suppose that's what discernment is really. Yeah. But when I go back to who I was at 24, I knew hard. I mean, I know what a hard life's like. Like I grew up in Ireland at a hard time. So my nervous system knew hard. So it didn't bother me. I was, yeah, it was familiar. And so it does because you know, if it's all going with the flow, it can be scary.

SPEAKER_02 27:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 27:10

Because it's like, well, who am I now? So it's always about that growth of well, who am I becoming now? Like, what does life want for me now? And I I got that at 24. And I I've had a beautiful life here. And I've I know there's been pain, but nobody gets through life without adversity and pain. And through adversity and pain comes growth.

SPEAKER_03 27:34

If you don't experience that and you try to rush through it or ignore it or suppress it, you miss a golden opportunity to grow.

SPEAKER_01 27:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 27:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:45

So you met Paul, who interviewed you and gave you the job, which you were very qualified for and you were the right candidate. It wasn't just because he had the hots for you, obviously.

SPEAKER_04 27:54

So it was a backpacker job. There was no qualifications needed. Okay. I was packing boxes.

SPEAKER_01 28:00

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 28:00

You know, so to be fair to him.

SPEAKER_01 28:04

And then tell us what happens next.

SPEAKER_04 28:08

Well, I remember that when I met him, like I felt something move in my heart. I was like, he's he's a good person. He's a good man.

SPEAKER_01 28:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 28:16

And he's caring, he's kind. We got on really well together. And I mean, we literally met, and I we've been together since. Yeah. It was easy. We're very different people. So I don't mean it's there's not difficulties, but there was no kind of will we, won't we? It was just we are. We are. You know, we we got together.

SPEAKER_01 28:37

Was your intention to just travel here and see what happens or didn't you have? And were you always going back to Ireland? Always going back to Ireland.

SPEAKER_04 28:45

Right. Always. Yeah. I mean, I was literally on a backpacker's visa and I wanted to have freedom. I did 24 then there was a lot of friends settling down. I was starting to go to loads of weddings.

SPEAKER_01 28:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 28:58

And I just didn't want that.

SPEAKER_01 29:00

No.

SPEAKER_04 29:00

And yet again, how ironic that I got here and and I met the person that I was to spend my life with. Like there's a back-ended joke in that too, because it's like again, I surrendered and thought I'm I'm getting out, I'm getting away from this. I don't want to do this. And he's there waiting for me at the other side.

SPEAKER_03 29:18

Oh beautiful.

SPEAKER_04 29:19

Yeah. So so a lot of this can be unconscious. We're not really aware of what we're thinking. It was it was a learning curve because I hadn't planned on staying here. I didn't have a dream of a house. I I was kind of like free or free spirit. And I'd found my yoga community here in Melbourne when I came. And it just it happened and we happened. And we ended up getting married.

SPEAKER_01 29:43

And did you marry here or in Ireland?

SPEAKER_04 29:46

No, we went back to Ireland. So he was happy to move to Ireland and we went back and got married and then came back here.

SPEAKER_01 29:53

Okay. And so how did the discussions go around where are we gonna settle? Your family's here, my family's in Ireland. We didn't really have those logic discussions. We were just in love. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 30:04

We were just in love and we were going with the flow. We're a couple that don't have that long-term plan. We just go with the flow.

SPEAKER_01 30:11

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 30:11

We we're kind of like we'll see what happens.

SPEAKER_01 30:14

Was he open to living in Ireland if you had wanted to go back?

SPEAKER_04 30:17

At that time, we wouldn't have been able to live in Ireland. It was like it was too tough. Yeah. And and there weren't many foreigners there. It's different now. But we hadn't planned that. Right.

SPEAKER_01 30:26

Okay. So you got married in Ireland, you came back here, and did you start a family? Or you don't plan? We don't plan.

SPEAKER_04 30:35

Um, we we when we came back, we started to save. We know where to live when we came back, so we stayed with Paul's parents and then we rented and thought, oh, we might start saving for buy a house and settle into our community. And then we thought that we might try for a baby. And I suppose for me being one of eight children and having had babies in my life all my life. I mean caring for the siblings and the cousins, right? And also the philosophy in Ireland was don't get pregnant. Like before you get married, everything don't get pregnant. Yeah, yes. You know what I mean? You know, the the idea of not being able to have children was never around for me. So I remember getting pregnant quite easily. We're delighted. I think my parents were here visiting at the time, and just absolutely on air. I was like, my life has opened up for me. You know, I'm having this baby. I'd um booked into the birthing center because it was going to be all natural. How old?

SPEAKER_01 31:37

How old were you by this stage?

SPEAKER_04 31:39

28. And then I I felt off. And I was I was up with the first pregnancy, I was about 12 weeks, and I just felt something had shifted in me. I went to the doctor and booked in for a scan, and so it was a missed what they call a missed abortion, you know, where the pregnancy had stopped, but it was still in me. So then I had to go for a DNC.

SPEAKER_02 32:03

That's rough.

SPEAKER_04 32:04

Yeah. And you know, that that experience, that that really I think it was such a shock for me. It was like I had no, I had no skills for it. I had no concepts. I had never thought that something of that could happen to me.

SPEAKER_01 32:21

Your your frame of reference didn't include that. And if women had miscarriages in Ireland, maybe they didn't talk about it, did they?

SPEAKER_04 32:27

Or I mean, you like in in those years, there wasn't really, it wasn't wasn't out in the open. No, you just got on with it, too. And I feel I think that's where the shame comes in now because it's like people look to the woman, like, what did you do wrong? Maybe I looked to me and thought, my goodness, like, did I eat some? You know, so it was more that and the embarrassment. Um, you know, that you celebrate it and tell people, and then it's like, it's not gonna work. And then also the you know, the grieving for the dream. Again, like that fantasy of, well, I thought this was in the it was gonna be in that month, and and the procedure was terrible, and and post-it, they put me into um which still hurts my heart. Like they put me into um a ward with women who had just given birth. Oh, had their waves. Wow. And I remember there were six of us in the room, and I just said, Can you please close the curtain?

SPEAKER_01 33:30

Oh, that's horrendous. That just shows the lack of understanding we had.

SPEAKER_04 33:34

You know, back then, and this was in Australia, you know, in um a Catholic hospital, I left within hours. I was like, oh, I'm gonna get me out of here. Get me out of here. Yeah. And I think that was traumat was traumatic. Of course. You know, because just the lack of understanding of how they could put me in there. And also for those poor women who had birthed it, like to have me in the corner with this tragedy, you know. So that was kind of something that's still like oh my heart for other women too, that it must have happened to her. The lack of care and understanding for what that must have been like, you know.

SPEAKER_01 34:13

Well, it's just the body, and the body was getting rid of a pregnancy that it couldn't, you know, wasn't viable or whatever. Like a lot of the language they use around it, I find it quite offensive, really. I think we're getting much better at that. Yeah. But it would have, particularly if it was Catholic hospital, probably run by nuns, was it? I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 34:30

I mean, it probably was, but there certainly wasn't the care.

SPEAKER_01 34:33

No.

SPEAKER_04 34:34

Obviously in that moment.

SPEAKER_01 34:35

And this is where the idea that you don't tell people till you're 12 weeks probably arose from. But my argument used to be, although I have been lucky enough not to have a miscarriage, but I always thought if I have a miscarriage, I want the support around me as well. But I totally understand what you're saying about you make this big announcement, and then you have to make another announcement that is awfully tragic.

SPEAKER_04 35:02

And it's the joy, like you're kind of more vulnerable because you're joyous and it's like, oh my goodness, we did it. And then didn't do it. And again, because of the woman is the carrier, yeah. That that kind of replaying was it like something in me? Was I lacking something? And how why would this happen? And also the innocence, the just the innocence, because you can never be the same again uh in pregnancy. Um, so that happened, and then we had another one after that that was also a miscarriage, but that was a bit gentler because I didn't need a procedure, so and it was earlier, so I felt like that was more private, that was just us, me and Paul. And of course, like we haven't mentioned him because it's his dream too. Yeah, and it's also the person he loves going to suffer. So by the time we came to the next pregnancy, we were probably more grounded and practical around the reality of life, and and that we still chose to go ahead and see if we could have another baby, you know. Once again, you chose life. Chose life. And and yeah, you know, like that the courage it takes and the the vulnerability of we'll we'll try, you know.

SPEAKER_01 36:17

And the strengths because you're putting yourself out there again.

SPEAKER_04 36:20

Yeah, and also the strain on the couple, it's it's it's an extra layer of pressure that sometimes isn't understood. And uh this time for me, I felt the third time I felt much stronger in myself because I had got to know myself through what I had gone through. And um it was a routine scan at 12 weeks that they said was they brought us into a room after the scan. I'd gone in and said, Oh, come here, recording, you know, those times you'd bring a tape and you'd get a recording. And I remember the person doing it was um, and I had I'd moved to a different hospital and everything.

SPEAKER_01 36:58

And um I remember she was quiet, and I thought, oh this is when there you wanted a recording of the Doppler, the heartbeat. Yeah, yeah. And could you hear the heartbeat?

SPEAKER_04 37:10

Yeah, but she had she had a heart, she had a heartbeat, but there was something of, and then they said it's done, but we want to bring into the room. So I I mean most people know what the room is, but I still didn't kind of understand. But the pregnancy had developed, but the baby had Turner syndrome, which is um chromosome abnormality, and so it was it was a girl, and it only happens to girls.

SPEAKER_01 37:37

Right.

SPEAKER_04 37:38

And so like it sounds strange, but it that didn't shock me. But that's all right. So, like, can we ever gonna is it gonna like continue? And of course, they don't tell you all the news in one go, and they were like, Well, there's a possibility we'd have to see how it goes. And it looks like there's a heart defect, and like I remember sitting there going, like, just give me some bit of hope. Just give me one, give me and I'm still like that even in dark times. Give me a glimmer. Just give me one glimmer of to hang on to. And they said, come back in two weeks, and we'll have another look and we'll see what's going on because we'll know by the progress. And so there and then I decided, and I spoke to Paul, that I didn't want to tell anyone. I didn't want to tell anyone about her. I just wanted to keep her between us and that we'd wait and see. And as it happened, it turned out her condition was it was very severe, and we knew like within another two weeks that she wasn't gonna ever survive outside the womb. So basically it was just how long she'd have inside in the womb. And so I mean that just broke our heart.

SPEAKER_02 38:50

Of course.

SPEAKER_04 38:52

You know, it just broke, it just broke our yeah, broke us who we were. And I remember naming her. Just kind of I'm gonna name her, I'm gonna make her real for us. And that's what we did. And every day we got with her, it was like, oh my goodness, it's the bestness. What was her name? Rebecca. Rebecca, you know, and so in the scanning uh area they said, look, you don't really need to be coming back because we know what's going to happen. But they said we we'd love to have the opportunity to record for like um research, you know, how long it'll go for and what it'll be like. And I was like, definitely.

SPEAKER_01 39:43

Wow.

SPEAKER_04 39:44

So I used to look he, I mean, I now I think, oh my god, what did they think? I used to get so excited because I could see her every time we went in.

SPEAKER_01 39:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 39:56

And so I used to kind of think, like, oh my god, I'm going for a scan. I get to see Rebecca.

SPEAKER_03 40:01

And I get to see her, and I get to like she didn't move much, you know, she was just um it's a big ask. You're going through loss and grief and knowing that she probably wasn't going to be born alive. Is that what you were told? Yeah. But here, while you're doing that, can we just monitor you and research? I get what you're saying, that you got to be with her, but did you ever think that, oh, this is this is my babies?

SPEAKER_04 40:26

No, no. No, I didn't because the kindness of the people there. Yeah. It transferred. Okay. So they were very generous in their kindness.

SPEAKER_01 40:38

And also, if you can separate it out, I guess, it's a gift to the community of science and development that maybe someone doesn't have to go through this, or if they are going through it, they have some knowledge to be able to brief you on it. Can live with it.

SPEAKER_04 40:55

Yeah, right. So you can live with turners, right? But she couldn't, but there are people in the world because we did the research afterwards.

SPEAKER_03 41:03

Wow. And her life meant something, so she could actually contribute to research and helping others. Yeah. And and helping the medics that were so kind to us.

SPEAKER_01 41:12

So did they say to you how many weeks you might carry to, or or what what were there, or did they make recommendations or no, just we were both strong in that we just wanted to let her be for as long as she wanted to be, and we would wait.

SPEAKER_04 41:26

And so that's what we did. That's amazing. And so we waited. And we chose again not to tell anybody because there was other women in the family pregnant at the time. We I just wanted to hold her. And I think what I got from that was, and I'm still like this, is the protection, the mother, the kind of protective mother. Because unfortunately, a lot of people don't have language for tragedy or they they say the wrong things. And you know, when you're open and vulnerable, things get in easier. So I wanted to protect us and protect her just from ignorance and judgment. Yeah, and people who didn't know what to say, so either didn't say anything, which is making it a non-advent, which is painful, and then saying something that could really be inappropriate because that happened too, you know, afterwards. And it's human nature, so but it's the vulnerability of the person, and I wanted to protect myself.

SPEAKER_01 42:24

Yeah, I mean it made it. You you made it about the three of you. Yes, we were strong. You were a unit.

SPEAKER_04 42:30

You know, we were a strong unit, and then we went in one day and there was no heartbeat. So that was it. I'm so sorry. And then that's another part of the journey. Just saying, you've got to make decisions about how and when and where, and there again, like our strength was just to the fore, and I I knew what I wanted. And luckily the medical staff were amazing. And um, I gave birth to Dora on sunrise.

SPEAKER_03 43:10

Beautiful.

SPEAKER_04 43:12

And you got to hold her and got to hold her and spend time with her, and then my sister, the only person that came in was my sister and held her. I so when I found out that we were I was going to give birth, I instantly went into a baby shop and I was looking for dresses, and I told the woman, I said, Oh, I've got a you know, stillborn baby, so I just need the smallest dress you have. Wow. And like I was just so brave. So I went into the hospital with this tiny little dress, but what came out of me was a tiny, tiny little creature, beautiful being. And um, so we've kept the dress. So we have the dress.

SPEAKER_01 43:56

That's a gorgeous symbol, isn't it?

SPEAKER_04 43:57

So it's kind of again the symbol of what I thought. Would be in what arrived and how you manage life, and this is what we're dealing with. The reality is against the fantasy. And I just again made clear directions that there was no more testing, there was no no autopsy, and she was going to be left intact.

SPEAKER_02 44:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 44:18

Yeah. And we ended up putting her coffin in the back of our car and bringing her to her own cremation. And we got her cremated. So I think when I look back now, I think, my goodness, for a young couple to go through that. But I think that's our strength, you know. Then I I knew after that that um I needed to go home to Ireland. Yeah. Right. So I brought her in my luggage, my hand luggage. So I felt like I needed to bring her back to Ireland, her ashes.

SPEAKER_01 44:48

Yeah.

unknown 44:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 44:49

And so in between that I had to have another procedure because I had complications after the birth. And that was the day. That was the day. Like when I speak about Rebecca and when I think of her, she's still very alive in me. Like I, you know, she's alive. Our children grew up with her because we kept her ashes and they were always in our bed. So in your bed? Yeah. What do you mean in your bed? Down the end of the bed. And our children got used to that. Our children grew up with that. Yeah, there's Rebecca. Okay. So she's a very live part of our unit. Yeah. Yeah. I get that. The day, if I was to reference the day, was when I got sick again, and uh the the doctor said you have to come and we'll have to do a procedure on you.

SPEAKER_01 45:35

This is before you went back to Ireland.

SPEAKER_04 45:37

And I said, I'll I'll do that. But please don't put me into the room like the last time. So he said, Fer he said, um, look, we ain't got any more beds. We haven't got any more beds, but I could put you into palliative care. You know what? I said, I said, that's that's okay. That's it.

SPEAKER_01 45:59

That's better than listening to the babies crying.

SPEAKER_04 46:01

So I was with the real women at the end of their life, and I was I was there and he came in to see me, and that was the day and he started talking about pregnancies, and I said, I've had enough. Yeah. I said, I I I can I can't take anymore. I I need time. You know, that was my defining moment of surrender of I've done enough. I've I've had enough pain. And he was very respectful of that. And um I took the work off and took time and grieved. And you know, the grief we feel is often not reflective of what's happened. Like grief is is it's not like a maths equation. And I think again, misunderstanding of grief that we can grieve for situations, like there's not just grief for one thing, grief can be for many, many things. And the grief I experienced was profound. I mean, I remember the darkness and the loneliness and the sadness, yeah, and the aloneness of my life without children and without her. You know? Um, and I think she, you know, was so determined because they'd be like, gosh.

SPEAKER_03 47:20

Like a mother. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 47:21

I was like, Yay, she's determined. Yeah. And then I went on to have three more determined daughters. Yay, that's wonderful. So that was when I went to Ireland, my family were so kind to me. Yeah, that's what you needed. You know, and and caring and not even understanding. I mean, cremation wouldn't have been in Ireland by then. Not an acceptable kind of thing. You know, but they were just so loving and caring and accepting, and and I'll never forget them for that. The good news was before I went back to Australia, I got sick and the doctor taught me I was pregnant.

SPEAKER_01 47:59

Oh, so was Paul with you in Ireland? So you just came back by yourself with Rebecca?

SPEAKER_04 48:04

I was back for two months.

SPEAKER_01 48:05

Oh, okay. And that would have been hard for him to be 100%. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 48:09

Yeah, it was a very lonely time for us. Yeah. It was a very, very tricky time for us as a couple, you know. But yeah, so I ended up not getting back on the flight. I stayed in Ireland and he came from Australia to Ireland. Was that intentional? You thought, I'm gonna have this baby here, or what was the thinking? I didn't want to risk a flight. Yep. And so I literally walked out of my house and my job and never went back to either of them. Well, and he packed up the house and we rented out our home. We'd bought a home by then and we rented it, and he came and we lived in my sister's spare bedroom, and our first daughter was born in Ireland. Congratulations. Yes, and what was her what is her name? Stephanie.

SPEAKER_03 48:55

Stephanie. And then you stayed there for 17 years. Yep. And you had two more. Two more.

SPEAKER_04 49:00

Two more girls, Holly and Courtney. Beautiful.

SPEAKER_01 49:03

I did ask Carolyn, why didn't you give them Irish names? But Paul was quite strong on that, wasn't he?

SPEAKER_04 49:11

Well, it was more protecting them from people not understanding their name and not being able to pronounce it. I suppose at that time that was that was a small thing. You know, we'd been through so much as a couple, and we also had to restart a life there and rebuild a life together.

SPEAKER_01 49:29

And that pregnancy must have been full of anxiety for you, was it? Or had you just accepted whatever happens, happens?

SPEAKER_04 49:36

Well, I had huge complications. So I didn't really have a restful pregnancy. So it was a very complicated pregnancy. Right. But we did get her in the end. That's beautiful. So that is definitely the the the light after the dark, but sometimes we just have to make a boundary of I don't know if I can keep doing this and surrender, and then sometimes it works out like it did for us. Yeah. But the ironic thing is coming from Ireland and then having so many brothers and sisters, and to like we have different learning curves in different times in our lives. And even though I talked to our daughters about this, that that experience changed me forever. Uh it's made me a really great mother. So much empathy, compassion, unconditional love. But also it's it's helped me to understand like pain in a way I couldn't have, and heartbreak. Yeah. And it it helps me to not sweat the small stuff and not to put up with bullshit. Yeah. Other people can suffer their own losses that I might not recognise as a big loss, but it's a big loss to them. Yeah. You know, that understanding of having to leave your own idea of what's a big thing and respect other people's right to have their lives and have their challenges, which look different to my challenges.

SPEAKER_01 51:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 51:01

It's so important that compassion for others. Yeah. And no one knows what it's like to live in someone else's shoes or to see part of people's story, don't we?

SPEAKER_01 51:12

Yeah. This podcast is a really good example. Like our episodes have come out, Jack and mine, and I've known people for nearly all my life that might not know my story. So that's the first time they might be hearing it. And I'm sure there's many people who don't know this part of your story. So that's why compassion is important, because we just we see the tip of the iceberg, don't we?

SPEAKER_04 51:33

Yeah. And that everyone's got a lived life whether they're able to identify some challenge and also some growth and some joy. And and yeah, when I step out and have a broader view of life, I'm able to understand more about myself and other people. Because when we get too involved in the middle of it, we we can get lost and confused about what's going on.

SPEAKER_01 51:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 51:55

But it's to step out and see it.

SPEAKER_01 51:57

Did you accept after Rebecca we might not have children? That children are not in 100%.

SPEAKER_04 52:03

Yeah. So the moment you kind of gave up that. And the fight, you know, that fight in me, that determined fight. That guy, I want what I want, and I'm gonna and and yep. And it was just the same thing.

SPEAKER_01 52:16

What is the difference between giving up and surrendering?

SPEAKER_04 52:22

I think surrender was like if I give up, it's like I'll stuff it. That's my idea of giving up. It's like uh it's kind of like um a backhanded disappointment or anger. It's like I'll stuff you.

SPEAKER_02 52:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 52:36

But if when I surrender, there's a lot more grace and acceptance and knowing as a as a woman, this is what I thought my path would be, and it's not. And some people are really good at surrender. They're like, oh my goodness, this is where I meant to go. And I'm like, I'm gonna fight every bit of the way.

SPEAKER_01 52:54

Yeah, that's me. I'm with you. Do you know that's why I get um I'll feel it. That's why I get fortnightly remedial massage. Because it's all in my muscles. Your rage.

SPEAKER_04 53:03

So the challenge, I suppose, if I go back to the 18-year-olds, the strength that brought me through that can be a challenge if I'm too involved in what I want, if I get lost in what I in the eye. The attachment.

SPEAKER_03 53:17

Yeah, yeah. It's like the Buddhists talk about attachment, and that's what pain is because you can't release yourself from it. But the moment you detach, you can't hurt yourself anymore. It is what it is, and I'll I'll get through this.

SPEAKER_04 53:31

And it can still be painful and challenging and disruptive and all those things, but there's just a layer of pain that's removed from it. I think that's what how I would see it. And I mean, there again, we don't really have a lot of skills and people showing us how to surrender because we live in a world that says get up and do it, especially in personal development. Like you can do it. Yeah, you can keep forcing, and it's like sometimes you just gotta sit it out. Yeah, take a break and see what's really going on and take a broader view.

SPEAKER_03 54:07

So true. Yeah. Very wise advice. It's the best advice, actually, coming from someone who has been a striver and a goer and a hustler. And the moment you do stop, the wisdom kind of just settles, and you can connect with yourself and realize what you need that you can't see when you're like fighting against everything. You're just too caught up in the moment and just being quiet. And um, so yeah, it's hard to do, extremely difficult.

SPEAKER_04 54:38

And it's a practice is to remember. I'm I'm struggling, so I've got to step back and see what's the bigger picture here.

SPEAKER_01 54:47

Right. So Jackie yelling surrender at me is not usually the process.

SPEAKER_00 54:51

I don't think I yell surrender at you.

SPEAKER_01 54:53

Just surrender, Kylie.

SPEAKER_00 54:54

I don't yell at you, maybe as well yelling.

SPEAKER_04 54:56

But that's like saying, like, just let go when I'm I'm on this side of the board, like not wanting to jump into the pool. Yeah, just let go. And I'm swearing, yeah. Yeah, that's not it's not an option. No, that's a good vision. Do you know what I mean? In the op in that moment, it's not an option. Yeah. Because you have to step back. Yeah, you have to step back and go, oh my goodness, I'm struggling.

SPEAKER_01 55:18

Gotta stand on the diving board and have a look down.

SPEAKER_04 55:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 55:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 55:22

And know whether you want to actually do that or whether you want to walk back down and go down the steps.

SPEAKER_01 55:26

Yeah. Your choice. So the light that you saw from the accident, I know you say you carry it with you, but with Rebecca and then all the other hardships you've had, does that come into play? Do you think I I chose to be here? And here's another challenge for me. And I'm choosing, is it that conscious, or is it just something that sits within your subconscious that you carry?

SPEAKER_04 55:52

It's a conscious. It's it's like it's how I live. Right.

SPEAKER_03 55:57

Is it like a flame in you, like a an internal light that just keeps and also that idea of choosing life?

SPEAKER_04 56:04

So life presents something, and then to choose the the path that's from a broader perspective.

SPEAKER_01 56:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 56:11

But that light is is that that experience is still in me. And I mean, what they would say is that with youth, you have a lot more strength to choose to come back. But when we get older, to really work on keeping our light and keeping our strength and our vitality so that we live longer and don't get old. Because live living longer is different to aging, you know? And I think that's why I continue living the making the choices I make, is so that I can remain light, light-hearted, light-minded, and aligned with what I would call now the intelligence of life, the bigger picture of life.

SPEAKER_01 56:51

You've already imparted so much wisdom. But if somebody's listening who's in that dark phase right now, how would you help them through?

SPEAKER_04 56:58

I would acknowledge it. I would say to them for them to acknowledge this is tough. This is a tough time, it's a tough day, this is a tough decision, and to get real about it and authentic with yourself and honour the toughness of this situation and the challenge, and also to remember it will pass. And then to uh step away from the uh intensity and just uh ask for guidance or be curious or see what's my part in it, how can I bring more ease to myself in the challenge? So it's not about changing the challenge because the challenge is there, yeah, but what could I do or what could I not do that's going to ease the pain of it and help me to relax into it and know that it will pass and there will be light come, and sometimes we just gotta stay in the dark and trust that it's going to shift.

SPEAKER_03 58:00

Yeah. And it's so hard to stay in the dark, so hard. It's so easy to run away and do the opposite.

SPEAKER_04 58:07

And that it's to me, it's part of life to have adversity and challenge in dark times. And it's not because you're bad or you've done anything wrong. It's actually part of being human and and learning as a human being and to watch that self-judgment and that critic and watch it for other people too, that you're not placing it on them to know they must just like stop.

SPEAKER_01 58:33

Stop judging people, like let people alone. Except if they cut me off in traffic, then I'm judging them. Really? Oh, yeah. I want like a loudspeaker on my car. I told my daughter that would be a funny TikTok. She didn't think the same. Do you think you're a frustrated police officer? God, no. No, it's not about that. It's about abusing people. You know how I was talking before about let's have compassion. Maybe they've had a bad day and got bad news and they cut me off. But I don't think that in the Maybe they're in their darkness. Maybe. And maybe I'll try to think that when I drive home today. Maybe it's best I don't get allowed to be grumbling.

SPEAKER_04 59:08

And maybe you just say a little affirmation before you turn the key or press the button that please keep them all keep them away from me. Please just make the path clear for me.

SPEAKER_01 59:20

I like it.

SPEAKER_04 59:20

So I can be kind to myself and kind to others. Yeah. Just move them away from me. Thank you. Yeah. You know, while you're learning.

SPEAKER_01 59:27

While I'm learning. While you're learning. At 51 years old.

SPEAKER_04 59:30

I need to learning. Okay, still learning. I like it.

SPEAKER_03 59:35

What advice do you have for women who do sit in judgment of others every day? Oh, she's got four kids or works full-time or she stays at home. You know, the choices we make, people are projecting their judgment on us all the time. People are projecting. We project onto each other.

SPEAKER_04 59:53

But but the question I would ask myself if I was judging somebody is but why am I doing this? Like what are you doing?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:02

But what am I keeping me off?

SPEAKER_04 1:00:04

But what am I getting from this? Like what what charge are you getting? So if you were to look at the traffic, what charge are you getting? Getting angry and sore neck muscles, to be honest. So you're it's an opportunity because you're connecting to your anger that's in their residue. And you know, you might want to channel that another way.

unknown 1:00:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:22

As enthusiasm, as like compassion.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:25

Put some 80s music on and start singing Cindy Lauper or um Gloria. Yep.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:33

If if women are interested in learning and wanting to expand and and change and become more authentic, like ask yourself, why am I judging this person so harshly? What's the harshness about? Why does it matter to me that she's got four kids or she's doing that? What's what's happening in me? What's the deficit in me? Because we're hooked in when we judge. You know, and it's quite addictive then to get that charge, and the charge is the addiction and the kind of familiar when you think of those of us who've had hard upbringings. Like it's it's easy to get stuck in that familiar pattern. And so how do you stop? Well, awareness is the first thing, and then the willingness not to do it and pull yourself up and click your fingers and say, Stop. Let those let them alone.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:28

Also, the people you surround yourself with is important, I think.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:31

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:32

Because sometimes you do, it's you have these patterns or relationships with people where that's the way you connect. Like you get together, you have a laugh about whatever. And if there's judgment in that, it's it's what you know about each other, and that's the basis of your connection. So maybe as I get older, I'm starting to look a little bit more intentionally about where I spend my energy and who I spend it with. And yeah, if that's a pathway you're on to more self-awareness or whatever, I think that who you associate with is telling. Wasn't that your uh word of the year? Intention. And yours was discernment, right? And you've used discernment today.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:13

So is there any other piece of wonderful wisdom that you would like to pass on to our listeners about life?

SPEAKER_04 1:02:21

If somebody in your life is going through a rough time, whether you understand it or you don't understand it, or there's a reason or there's not a reason, it's really important to acknowledge it.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:31

Acknowledge their suffering or their challenge. It mightn't be what you would how you would respond, but acknowledge them. Because there's the pain of of the struggle, and then there's the pay the added pain is that people avoid speaking about it. Like, but I don't want to bring it up because if I bring it up, it makes it worse. Sorry, I don't want to upset you.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:53

And so it comes from a kind place, maybe, but it it's kind of diminishing the experience of somebody. And it's like just acknowledging you've seen this, I've noticed that. And it makes room for them to be validated rather than invalidated. And let's stay positive. That invalidation, we won't talk about that. You know, so I I think that's what I've learned is to find the courage to just to just acknowledge something just quietly and it kind of validates the experience for the person.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:30

Yeah. And I really just reflecting back on what you were talking about, I love the idea that your concept of that day when we spoke to you about this, which of course we would naturally think is the day you lost Rebecca. But actually, you said it was the day you learned to surrender. And I think that's incredible wisdom because you see Rebecca as a gift, even though it was so sad. That day was a turning point in your life, which is really what we're trying to get at here. And that's what you chose as that day, which I'm really impressed by that. So congratulations on your enlightenment. Thank you, Carly. Well, that was magnificent. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:10

It was beautiful.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:11

You've been amazing. And when I was driving here, you know what song came on my playlist? All that you have is your soul by Tracy Chapman. And I feel like that should be the theme of this, right? All that you have is your soul. You were telling us before that you wanted to tell us the story from your belly. You had to connect the soul, not just from the head and the heart, but your whole being. And you did that. Thank you very much. And in memory of Rebecca.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:39

Yeah, thank you.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:40

Thank you. Thank you, girls. Thanks for listening to That Day with Kylie and Jack. If this story stirred something in you, if you've had that day, we'd love to hear from you. Find us on Instagram at That DayPodcast or get in touch via email. Hosts at thatdaypodcast.com.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:58

Your story matters. We're listening.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:01

We record that day in Narm on the lands of the Waranjiri Boywarong people of the Kulin Nation. We pay our respects to elders, past, present, and honour their enduring tradition of storytelling.