The Day Mary Howley Trusted Her Intuition

What happens when the carefully made plan falls apart and all you have left is your instinct?

Mary Howley has never been interested in living a small life. When the pull to travel across Europe took hold, she planned it meticulously—researching routes, mapping contingencies, preparing for every possible outcome long before the internet made it easy.

She and a friend set off together, but the trip changed early. Her travel companion decided to stay in London leaving Mary to continue the planned trip alone.

What began as a shared adventure became solo travel through unfamiliar cities, each step demanding more instinct than planning.

In Athens, Mary got into what she believed was a taxi to her accommodation. Instead, the driver continued far beyond the expected route, taking her away from the safety of the city streets and into a situation that quickly felt wrong.

In that moment, everything came down to intuition.

Relying on her instincts and a steady kind of courage, Mary made choices that ultimately helped her escape a situation that could have turned fatal.

And yet, for years she told no one. As the daughter of immigrant parents who had never wanted her to travel, she carried the story quietly, not wanting to add to their fear or confirm their worst worries about the world.

This is a story about solo female travel, intuition, and the constant, invisible negotiation women make with safety everywhere they go.

For more information about Mary, visit her website: https://www.maryhowley.com/ or follow her on instagram @maryhowley_

⚠️ Our episodes contain conversations about difficult life experiences. Some episodes include coarse language and themes such as childhood trauma, sexual assault, infant loss and references to suicide. Please take care while listening and prioritise your wellbeing. 

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Production assistance from John Hresc at Sydney Sound Brewery 

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:02

Life can change in a day.

SPEAKER_02 0:03

A betrayal, a diagnosis, a devastation, a breakdown. This is That Day, the podcast where women tell real stories of the moment life changed, the chaos that followed, and the strength they found along the way. No subject is off limits. I'm Jack, a former coroner-turned empowerment coach. And I'm Kylie, once an HR manager, now a published author. Together, we help women tell the stories that matter. By the end of each episode, you'll feel it, you'll learn from it, and carry it with you. Welcome to that day.

SPEAKER_01 0:37

This podcast contains conversations about difficult life experiences. Some episodes may include coarse language and themes such as illness, suicide, infertility, or childhood trauma. Please take care while listening and prioritize your well-being. Help lines are listed in the show notes. Today's guest is Mary Howley, a Melbourne native with a passion for many things. She is a published short story writer, an avid gardener, and a lipstick collector. Mary has always believed in adventure and pushing herself beyond her comfort zone. But on a solo trip through Europe, a late-night taxi ride in Athens became a terrifying fight for survival. Stranded alone in a foreign country, Mary had to rely on instinct, preparation, and quick thinking to escape a situation that still sends tingles down her spine. Since that day, she's carried the lessons of intuition, resilience, and self-trust into every part of her life. And now she shares them with her own children as they explore the world. Welcome, Mary. Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 1:41

Welcome, Mary. Mary, tell us about growing up in Australia.

SPEAKER_04 1:48

Well, I was a daughter of migrants. My parents left a country that had been decimated by World War II. They were children in the Depression. Where were they from? From Malta. Okay. So Malta's in the middle of the Mediterranean, and it was a place that was bombarded by the Germans and the Italians, but also used by the English as a place to land and depart their planes. It takes decades and decades to rebuild a country. And even though the war was well over and they were teenagers at that stage of the depression, there was a sense of hopelessness for them and the sense of community that they knew had gone. And just as an example, so every morning people used to go and buy a loaf of bread from the local baker, and they'd all meet there, and then they'd go and talk in the town square. And when all of that was gone, the baker was gone, the town square was gone, people had nowhere to meet and talk. And you just don't realise just the societal implications of a war. Yes, war um buildings are bombed, the infrastructure's gone, but people lose the very foundation of their community. And connection, right? And connection. And they're totally displaced. It's as if there's nothing there for them. So my parents migrated to Australia. They were in their early 20s. Were they already married? They were married. They were neighbours. Oh. Yes. How convenient. We always say it's lazy. How lazy was. Careful who you live next to. How lazy was dad. And married the woman next door. What year are we talking? Um well they came in the late 1950s. All they wanted to do was have safety and security and community. So they saved and they worked really hard. Um and they bought a house. And to them, that was just exactly what they wanted. And they had community around them because, like a lot of migrant groups, they bought a house close to aunts, uncles, siblings. Yeah, they built a community all over again. And it was a beautiful community. And people would grow vegetables and they'd uh share what they had. And I honestly think my husband would go back to this time. Well, it's a beautiful time. And I think even as a child, I looked at it and and saw the beauty of it. And when I say it's a simple life, I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with it. I'm saying it's it's beautiful in its simplicity. You know what I mean? We're so far removed from the we are so far removed. Um, and my father used to say, Oh, we have enough, you know. And I look back now as an adult and I think to be able to know that you have enough is a gift. Because we we always want more, don't we? That's the way we've we're entrenched now. But I saw the beauty of it, but I felt that maybe if I just had that, it would be a tiny life for me because I was a very restless person in that I wanted to be wise from a very young age. And even now as an adult, I don't think I'm wise enough. I want to learn more. And my idea of becoming wise was travelling. Wow. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 5:05

In in what sense? Can you explain that?

SPEAKER_04 5:07

Um I I felt that I wanted to know a more about people. I wanted to see countries. I wanted to eat different food. Um you wanted to open your mind. I wanted to open my mind. And um Did you want to learn about your parents' heritage as well? Or did you go back to Malta? I did. I've I've been back to Malta Um and I understood their mentality because when I started talking about traveling, they were like, Oh, really? My father said to me, We've got a set of encyclopedias. Why don't you just read those? It'll give you wisdom.

SPEAKER_01 5:41

Those old days. And this is the days before internet, mobile phones. Like, yes, it wasn't easy to get information about other countries. You did look it up in an interview. Yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 5:53

And so um I I started to build a little stash of money because in my teenage years I had a number of jobs, and my sole purpose was to save money and travel. And the more I talked about it, my parents were very reasonable. Um, they just wanted us to be happy. Like we want our kids to be happy. But my father used to say to me, um, well, maybe buy a house first, you know, and and have that to come back to. But I thought buying a house and having a mortgage would just anchor me. I wouldn't be able to travel. So um I I saved the money and I started talking to a travel agent because in those days, and I'm talking now late 1980s, we we went to travel agents to get our holidays um together. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 6:40

You couldn't get on the internet.

SPEAKER_01 6:41

No, no. You know what? I've gone back to a travel agent now. Yeah, because they make it my head in. And half the time they can get you better deals anyway. Yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 6:51

And half the time they know, you know, try this place, this is a really good little taverna you can go to, etc. So yeah, I went to a travel agent and she said to me, Oh, you what you're thinking of traveling on your own? And I said to her, I really don't want to travel on my own because I felt really naive. I felt that I wasn't travel savvy because my parents didn't travel, you know, they were happy just to stay where they were.

SPEAKER_01 7:16

But also traveling was for people who had money. You know, I grew up with parents who were born here. Yeah. They had no money, so we didn't travel anywhere. And my parents didn't see it as a tangible thing.

SPEAKER_04 7:27

You know, they said to me, You'll have memories, but you'll come back and you've spent all that money.

SPEAKER_01 7:32

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_04 7:33

But to me, the memories were more important than, you know, having that money in the bank. And broadening your horizon. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 7:41

So where did your sense of wonderlust come from?

SPEAKER_04 7:43

Look, I have to be honest, my father travelled a lot before he um got married. He um stowed away on a container ship at the age of 14.

unknown 7:53

Wow.

SPEAKER_04 7:53

He had a real sense of adventure, and he said that was the loneliest time of his life, being on a container ship with a whole lot of other people. Um he said that there was no real connections between the people. It was a very transient thing. People do one job on a container ship, the chip lands, and then new people get on the ship and it starts all over again like that. But what was his goal? Was it to see other Um His goal was to earn a living. Oh, okay. So he he worked and he often got off the ship. He worked in America in um they had camps. He was a maintenance man for a period of time. Um says as a 14-year-old. Yeah, yeah. He came back to Malta in his early twenties and then married my mother. But um he really saw the world, and we had a suitcase on top of a wardrobe, and if you opened it up, he had all the stamps from places he'd visited, you know, stickers inside the suitcase. And back in those days, we had maps. He'd pull out a map of the world, and I was fascinated by the colours of the world and the different places, and he'd talk about it. And I think he, as much as he was concerned about me travelling, I think he instilled it.

SPEAKER_03 9:06

Oh my god, I'm sitting here. He traveled. Yes, the whole reason you wanted to go for that suitcase.

SPEAKER_04 9:11

And even he had a really good general knowledge.

SPEAKER_03 9:14

Um, if we saw something, he could tell us where that place was, and you know So he ignited some interest in you in and that suitcase served a little um sense of adventure and and may have been the reason why I think that's a good idea. I think so. Yeah. I think so.

SPEAKER_04 9:30

Um and the way he talked about it, his eyes would light up. So I knew that I wanted what he'd had a taste of.

SPEAKER_03 9:38

And even if he'd had that taste, he couldn't actually accept that that might be something that you wanted.

SPEAKER_04 9:44

Well, I think he was a man travelling on his own and he might have seen things happen, and I think a woman travelling on her own was a concern for him. It was a concern for me. So I started planning this holiday. How old were you? Um oh it was between um it was between finishing teachers college and then thinking about getting a full-time job. So those early twenties? Yeah, early 20s. So um I you don't have internet, didn't have sat nav, so I bought a whole lot of Lonely Planner books for each country, and I read them over and over, and I made spreadsheets of um where I want to go and places to see, but it still bothered me that I'd be travelling on my own. I'm I'm a person who likes to be with people and share experiences. And then a woman that I had worked with said to me, I'll come with you. And I didn't know her very well, to be honest, but she had travelled a lot with her family. Her family were because she was wealthy, uh, same age. Okay. And she said to me, I don't plan anything. She said, We'll just book places as we go. But I I'm not that type of person. I need to know that we've got somewhere to sleep that night. Yep. So with her help, I booked everything and with the help of the travel agent. I also wrote in my research, I wrote places that I we were going to stay at on little business cards so I could show taxi drivers and say, if I didn't know the language, I'd say, can you take us to this place? That is so organised. I knew very well prepared. And I still knew that. I knew distances between the hotel and the airport. I knew how much uh cab fares would cost, taxi fares would cost, so I could negotiate around that price. And I did that because I I I was, I am organized in that area, but more so because I felt that um I needed to empower, and I hate that word empower, but I needed to have at my fingertips some knowledge that I knew, you know, the confidence. Otherwise, I felt if I was going to a situation where I couldn't speak the language in a country, I didn't know the locations or geography of the country, I was at a real disadvantage. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 11:59

Well, you had wisdom early on because a lot of naive travellers would just land in a country and hope for the best.

SPEAKER_04 12:05

And I I didn't want someone to say, oh, you know, just there's a backpackers place down the road, come with me. And I I I just wanted to know that I had a bit of control in the situation.

SPEAKER_03 12:14

And it was a risk management tool for you in a way. Absolutely. Just thought I've got a backup plan.

SPEAKER_04 12:20

And I I remember getting on that on the plane and thinking, I've done what I can to support yourself. To support myself. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um so that was. Are you excited or you wouldn't have Oh trepidation, yeah, um, butterflies in my stomach, but I was excited. And look, there's two parts to me, and I think a lot of people are like me. There's one side that says, why do you do this to yourself? You know, you could live a comfortable life and you don't have to take yourself out of your boundaries. But there's another side to me that says, you you can't have a tiny life. You've got to be out there, you know, you've got to try and taste things and feel things. And and I'm constantly battling within myself. I have that conflict of do you really want to do this? And the other part of yes, you've got to do it. I was always like that. And that's how it was when you say, How did I feel on the plane? I had these mixed feelings. Yeah. That wow, I'm doing this, but at the same time, oh my God, you know.

SPEAKER_03 13:19

Yeah. And it seems that courage always seems to have its way with you and and you choose the hard path despite the fear and worry. I do. What drives that?

SPEAKER_04 13:30

My father was like that. Yeah. Um, look, really, he didn't travel because my mother didn't want to travel, but I think um if he was married to someone who loved traveling, he would have been traveling all the time because he had a thirst for knowledge as well. That's why we had encyclopedias. He read them from A to Z because he wanted to know about the world. He used to always say, empower yourself with knowledge because knowing things is is what puts you out there in the world and and you're on an equal footing with other people.

SPEAKER_01 13:59

And that sense of adventure is often a personality thing. Like I traveled alone when I was in my early 20s, I went and lived in Europe for a year. And I remember at the airport, my younger sister was crying hysterically because the idea for her to travel alone overseas was so foreign, she was frightened for me. But I was so excited, thinking, I'm doing this. Like obviously nervous, but I think it is part personality. So obviously, you had those components of your dad's sense of adventure. I did.

SPEAKER_04 14:33

So we started organizing our holiday, and just before I left, another woman that I worked with who had travelled a lot, single woman in her 50s. I used to always think she's so wise, this woman. She pulled me aside and she said, Look, I've travelled a lot, and in some places women are fair game, right? So you need to protect yourself. So she said, one thing I would advise you to do is just buy a costume jewellery, gold ring, have it in the pocket of your jeans, and if you're in trouble, pull it out, put it on, and say, My partner is waiting at this landmark, or my partner is waiting at this hotel. They know then that you're accountable to someone. You're not totally on your own. Good advice. And I took that advice, I bought a cheap gold ring and I put it in the pocket of my jeans. And that was one thing that saved me in this situation. But I'll go back to my friend. So we landed in um the UK. That was our first place. Within a couple of days, she met a guy and was head over heels in love with him. Yep. Two days in. Um her destiny was done. Um we had a one-room hotel and they had sex every night. And I'm like, oh my god, when is this going to end? You didn't go for a walk? That's what I did. Okay. Many times. Yeah. Ate alone many times, uh, went to galleries, and I just kept thinking, oh, is she gonna come with me for the rest of the holiday? And she'd put a lot of money in because we'd already paid for hotels and things, and I thought surely she would. And on the day we were due to leave London, we were gonna catch a train and do the south coast of England, a bit more inland, and then go along the east and further up to Scotland and Island. We're gonna do it all with trains. And um she she looked really sick that morning. She was pregnant. No, I I think she didn't know how to tell me. And and finally she said, Look, I'm not coming. I'm not doing the rest of the holiday. I'm gonna stay and see where this romance goes. Wow. And it was clang. Clang, it was what I didn't want to happen. On the other hand, we didn't have prepared for. Oh. Maybe I saw it coming, but I I didn't think she'd would do that. In a way I understood. Maybe she wanted to follow this. And remember, these are days of no mobile phones. You can't text a person as if you're going, hey, going, keeping up that. I could understand that. So is she married to him with a mortgage? No, it didn't, it didn't work out at all. Spoiler alert. She went back the following year and did the same trip. And she said to me, Do you want to come back with me? And I said, I spent all my money not going back. Not for a while. Um So you continued. So she walked she came to the train station. I remember really well the loneliest feeling where I jumped on the train with my suitcase and the doors closed, and I could see her waving to me through the glass doors, and I thought, shit, I'm on my own. Yeah. Uh for three months. And did you cry? No, no. I I trembled inside, I remember. Um, and I I just thought there's no way I'm gonna just go home now. I can't do I can't. I've got to really make this work. Yeah. And in a way, it was a fork in the road for me because I just thought I'm gonna really rely on my inner strength and I'm gonna make this work.

unknown 18:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 18:03

And not gonna let one person's um disappointing me change my life trajectory.

SPEAKER_04 18:09

And so it was a time of huge emotional growth, I think, during those three months. I was very cautious who I spoke to. I was very guarded with what I told people, but I did meet some really lovely people. I did a lot of day tours. People are very helpful, and I met other people my age, and so it was things were working well. Um and you were growing in confidence. I was growing in confidence, yeah. And did you have fun? I had fun, yeah. And did meeting all these new people. The thing is, you know, when you're with someone, you can laugh a situation off, you can relive those memories. Debrief. Yeah, or you know, I didn't know last night last night was fantastic. But you're on your own. So I journaled a lot and and I wrote a lot about my feelings. Um, and when I read read that, I think, oh, I'm back to being that young girl and fearful but excited, and um that's a book waiting to be written. Yeah, proud of myself for for doing it, but at the same time, every day I I couldn't eat breakfast in the mornings because I was so nervous about what the day would hold. Oh wow, okay. Um, but got through it and had fun. Yeah. Um awesome. So yeah, huge learning experience.

SPEAKER_01 19:28

So how far into your trip did you have have it planned to go to Athens?

SPEAKER_04 19:34

Athens was almost, well, it was at the end of my trip. Oh, okay. So, and I was really looking forward to it because um I did an elective at university and even in year 11 and year 12, I did classical mythology, which was all about the gods, and I couldn't wait to go to the temples and see the history, because Australia's not that old, but when you go overseas, you're just blown away by the age of buildings that are still standing. So um I was due to flying to Athens late afternoon, and there was a storm in Rome, and the plane wouldn't take off. Eventually, it was uh late into the night when the plane took off, and I landed in um Athens at about two in the morning. And I got out and I went outside looking for a cab, and there were just a couple of cars there. There was a a guy, he was probably in his 30s, uh early 30s, leaning against a yellow car. He was wearing a yellow t-shirt now that I remember, and he was smoking a cigarette and he said, Oh, he jumped up when he saw me and he said, Um, you want taxi? And I said, Yes. And he said, You you're by yourself? And um I said, Yes. I mean, I couldn't lie, because there was no one else coming out with me. And I showed him I had the card of the hotel where I wanted to go, and I said, Can you take me there? And I knew that the hotel was near the Acropolis, like in the city. And then I mentioned the airfare. I said, Are you happy with that? Yes, yes, yes. The price of the taxi. The price of the taxi, sorry, not the airfare, the price of the taxi. And um he opened the boot and it was dark, like the airport was dimly lit, and he put my suitcase in the boot and he said something about having an untidy boot. Um and I sort of didn't take any notice. And then he opened the car door and I got in the back. So he seemed very friendly initially. And then as we're driving out, I thought, uh, hold on, is he is he a taxi driver? Because you know, taxis had a glass panel between the driver and the passenger, and that wasn't there. There was no identification. Usually they had a photo under the rear vision mirror of themselves with a number. There was none of it. That there was no taxi meter. And so I leaned over it, I was in the back seat, and I said, Are you a taxi driver? So yes, yes, yes, yes, I am. And the reason why I didn't do anything about it is that when I was in small villages in Europe, it was like um the beginnings of an Uber. Like people would just turn up at the airport in their little battered cars and they would offer you a ride. You'd negotiate a price and they were really good because often they'd give you a commentary of go to the market on this day or got to visit this church, and they would take you to where you needed to go. It was based on trust. Based on trust. Yep. So for that reason, I didn't say stop the car. I just kept going with it. Were you feeling a little bit like this is not quite adding up? That's how it started. I I felt yeah, I thought, what should I do? But there was only, as I said, a couple of a couple of um taxis at the uh taxi ranks. I knew the time it would take from the airport to the hotel. And I was looking at my wristwatch and it was dark, and I kept trying to make out the time, and I thought, this is taking longer than it should. And he kept driving and he started driving really erratically and fast around the corners. And I know in some places in Europe they they drive really fast, crazy drivers. So again, I ex I excused him for that, but I felt it was sort of I felt it was disrespectful to uh a fair paying passenger, but I didn't do anything about it.

SPEAKER_03 23:42

So you had this internal monologue fear, anxiety, no, no, it's okay. You were having a conversation in with yourself, yeah trying to make yourself feel okay, it's all right, it's fine.

SPEAKER_04 23:53

And he was getting uh more and more uh quiet and aloof, and I I sensed uh anger. And I think uh I wanted to just de-escalate things. I didn't want to make things worse. So I sat in the back, but I was getting more and more concerned. And as I started looking out out of the side windows, suddenly the geography changed and it was just farming land, um what looked like to me olive trees, because I'd seen a lot of olive trees in the Mediterranean. And I I I said the the city's back there, you know. And he didn't answer me. But he kept driving, and by this stage my intuition is screaming that something is not right. But you know, I didn't know the language, my suitcase in the is in the boot, and that's all the clothes I own. Um just female by yourself. Female by myself. And I just want to point out that um I was not a vulnerable person until I met this guy. I was a person walking out of the airport expecting someone to do what they said they'd do. You know, he would take me to the airport, but he actually manipulated my trust. And that's that that's when I became vulnerable because he put me in a situation where I'm in a car, I cannot get out. He knew the area where he was driving to, he knew the language, and he had all of that over me. So I did at that stage feel very vulnerable. He prayed on you. He did. So he said to me, Um he drove to this big house on a hill and he parked in the driveway and he said to me, You wait here, I'm going to get a friend. And I thought, Oh my God, what is this? And he walked up to the front door. At that stage, I opened my car door, thinking I'll get out. But when I looked out, I didn't know where I was. Again, no mobile phone at that time. You can't call anyone. It's dark. My suits are dark in the morning. Yep. My suitcases in the boot of my car. I did have my passport on me. I had a little backpack at my feet, so I thought I could run away with that, but I had nothing else. And where would you run to a farmland room of and I had didn't have the language to say, you know, I'm in trouble. Um Google Translate. No. So I closed the car door again and I thought, I've got to get out of this situation. This is not right. Anyway, he came back with his friend. His friend put something in the boot. I don't know what they put in the boot, and they got back in, and they were so, you know, cheered up. The mood of the driver just changed instantly. He went from being sullen to suddenly, you know, talkative to his mate, not to me. And his mate got in the car and he turned around and he looked at me, and I remember his yellow crooked teeth, and he was a young guy as well. And I just thought, I felt like a scared rabbit in the back. Yep. And that like I was their prey. And I just thought, no, something's gonna happen here, so I've got to do something about it. There was a flicker, a time when I thought, maybe they're gonna turn around and go to the city. Maybe he just picked up his mate who wanted to go to the city. But no, they kept driving inland. So I thought this is getting further and further away from the city, and I I have to do something about it.

SPEAKER_01 27:23

Yep.

SPEAKER_04 27:24

So I pulled out that gold ring from the pocket of my jeans, and I said to them, When I was in the airport, I rang my husband. He's at the hotel. Right? And I kept showing them the ring, and I said, He knows that I should be at the hotel by now. He's gonna go to the police. And they took no notice of me. And I said again to the driver, People saw you. They saw me getting into your car, they know who you are. What are you gonna do? And he kept driving, and I I was at this stage knocking on the windows, trying to work out how to get out. I was yelling at them. They started yelling amongst themselves, and I I got the feeling that the passenger wanted to go ahead with their plan, but the driver was suddenly, maybe I have been recognised. He had I could see this doubt. And they started really arguing, and the driver was driving really fast. I thought, if they don't rape me, they're gonna kill me because they're gonna have a car wreck in it. Yeah. Um and I just I just thought I'm just gonna persist. And I kept saying these things to them, you know, you you will be recognized, you're not gonna get away with this, you know. So he got it in his head. Got it in his head. Yep. And he stopped the car and he argued with his mate, and then he turned around. And I'll never forget um that relief that swept through me. I thought we are going back to the hotel. And there was one thing that, you know, in reliving this memory, I've never felt fear like that before. Um, I mean, we all know fear, but uh the fear of thinking that you might die. Yeah, all of my senses were heightened. This metallic taste of my mouth. I used to get that as a child when I was naughty or in trouble, but this was like severe. And my my ears I was just I was just I've never felt anything like it. The fear in bubbling inside me and and the the voice in my head saying, get yourself out of here. You need to get out. And then the relief of when he turned around that swept through me. You know, I've I thought, maybe I have saved myself. Were you sure he was going back?

SPEAKER_01 29:49

Well did he say anything or were he just angrily to the car around?

SPEAKER_04 29:53

Um he was his his um his passenger was majorly pissed off, but he just turned around, he said nothing. As we were driving, I could see the city lights coming towards us. And when we reached the hotel So he took you to the hotel. He took me to the hotel and I opened the door and I my legs would not move. It was like my whole body had just collapsed. That adrenaline had rushed through you. Yeah, rushed through me, and then and then it was all over. And I I pulled out the cash that we had negotiated for the fare out of my pocket. God, it was good of you to pay him. I feel like I would have just riled from the money. I wanted my suitcase from the boot of my car, and my fear was that he would drive off with it. And then I'd just be left with the clothes I'm wearing, you know. So um we walked to the back and he said, No, no, no. He showed me with his fingers, he splayed his fingers as to how much money he wanted. And that money was all the cash I had for the time I was spending in Greece. And I thought, I'm not gonna give it to him. Wow. And we argued, and his passenger got out, and I they were both leaning against the boot saying, if you want your suitcase, you will pay us that money.

SPEAKER_01 31:13

Well they were these big guys. Big guys. Mary's quite small. Uh yes.

SPEAKER_04 31:17

How tall was he guinea then? Um, five foot three I am, or maybe. So two big Greek Greek guys. At that stage, I went from fear to anger. I thought, you you pricks. Put me through this, and now you want me to pay you for it? Yeah. And I said, I just want my suitcase. And we must have yelled so loudly that the concierge of the hotel, I was staying in three-star hotels and backpack hotel, uh, backpackers hotels. And this was a hotel near the Acropolis, and um, the concierge walked out. He said, What's going on? You know? And I I said, They want this much for a fare from the airport. I said, No, no, no, no. And he said what the fare should be, which is what I had in my hand. So these the driver snatched the money, opened the boot, threw my suitcase on the floor, and they both got in the car and they drove off. And the concierge, who reminded me a bit of my father, I think that's why I felt like, oh, maybe I'm in good hands finally, he took me in and he he said, Oh, you need an uzo. And I I'm I'm not I wasn't a drinker, and I used I did taste ozo before and I thought it tasted like, I don't know, methylated spirits. But at that stage I thought, yeah, I need an uzo. And so we sat down and at the bar and he said, What happened? And I told him, and I could see him looking concerned. He didn't dismiss me. He's like, Oh, that's no good. That's no good. So he said, What are you doing tomorrow? And I said, I'm going on a tour. And he said, Oh, all right, I'm going to upgrade your room. So he gave me a better room, which was nice. And I went to bed, but I didn't sleep. Of course. I was just going through my head as to what could have been, what might have happened, and how did I get out of that car? You know, like how did I do that? And in the morning, I was walking across the foyer and the concierge was there. He said, Oh, look, I finished work an hour ago, but I wanted to talk to you. How are you? And I said, Yeah, I'm all right. And he said, I think you should go to the police because there have been cases of young girls picked up at the airport, girls on their own, driven to very remote areas, raped and left.

SPEAKER_01 33:43

Wow.

SPEAKER_04 33:44

And people won't talk about it because they're worried about ruining the tourist industry and that people won't come here. He said, But I think you should do something. He said, Can you recognise the people, the men? I said, yes. I said, and you saw them too. So What a good man. Yeah, a really good man. He wrote down where the police station was. So I went on the tour. It was a day where I just wanted to be with other people. I often I'm, you know, when I was travelling, there were times when I was really happy to be on my own, but I just wanted to be in crowds for safety. Yeah. Um and then I thought I went through hell and I don't want any other woman to go through this, so I'm going to do something about it. So when I came back from the tour, I walked around to the police station and I couldn't have found a more disinterested guy. And I told him the story and I said, I'm happy. I can if you want to sketch what these men look like. And he just folded his arms and he said, Oh, you you're a tourist, you're here for fun. I said, That's not fun. That's fear. That is not fun. And I don't want anyone to go through anything like that. And that was that, you know. He wasn't interested. I wasn't interested. I thought, well, what else can I do? I felt dismissed. Anyway, I s I let it go. I went home, uh, back to Australia, and I didn't tell anyone about it. I just thought it's something that I'm okay, I survived, you know, telling people about it, I'd be going over it and over it. And I didn't tell my parents because I thought they would just churn over it. And I had two young sisters who I knew would travel. I didn't want them to be stopped from traveling. And I didn't want my parents to think that there's all bad people out there, because that could happen anywhere in the world, you know, that situation. And it does. And it does. But in Australia. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 35:43

Do and didn't want to sort of warn your sisters in a way to protect them, just quietly separate from your parents? Well, you didn't want to scare them.

SPEAKER_04 35:51

I did want to scare them. I I didn't want to bring up that fear that I felt again. I didn't want to feel it again by talking about it.

SPEAKER_03 35:59

I actually wanted to ask, is this the first time you've talked about it? Yeah. Well openly. Yes. Yes. So does your do your family know about it?

SPEAKER_04 36:06

Well, a few months ago, because I'm going to do a trip with my one of my sisters and we're taking our daughters, and I I told her what happened. And she said, Why don't you tell anyone about it? And she's a psychologist. She'd be very understanding. And I said, I don't know, I just buried it. I just didn't want to keep reliving it and reliving it.

SPEAKER_03 36:25

Because when you're telling people, you're going back into that time. Yeah. And that's what I wanted to ask you. So when you t tell us today, are you feeling that fear? Can you sense like you're very descriptive? You can see the colour of the car, you can see the colour of the teeth. You can like are you feeling the fear now?

SPEAKER_04 36:41

I don't feel the fear. Yep. Because I went through, and women do this, I think. I and unpacked it bit by bit, over and over in my mind. Like, when should I have gotten out of that car? When I realized he's not a taxi driver, should I have said, stop, get me out of here? Should I have got out when we started leaving the lights of the city at that stage? Why didn't I? So self-blame was self-blame, and women do that. And now with hindsight and many years in between, I know that it wasn't me, right? I met a bad person who took advantage of my trust.

SPEAKER_01 37:22

Yep. And but also that time, like even when I speak about Euridice Dixon, I remember a police spokesperson stood up in front of the media and actually said to women, you need to not be walking alone at night. And we're like, how about that? But you tell the guys to stop and rape us.

SPEAKER_04 37:42

How about that? Alone. And that's why I wanted to say, that's why my point was, I wasn't a vulnerable woman walking out of the airport. I was just someone who wanted someone to take me to my the hotel. Yeah. I just happened to meet the wrong person.

SPEAKER_01 37:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 37:57

But you still beat yourself up about checking if you're and then I buried it and then life went on.

SPEAKER_03 38:04

Was there a part of you also that thought, oh my God, I just saved my life by fighting internally and and actually saying the things to him that I'm gonna get you, my husband's gonna wait for you, people recognise you. Did you actually give yourself any credit for surviving?

SPEAKER_04 38:20

Not at the not at that time. And then I when I came back, I thought, I never want to be in that situation ever again, but what can I do? Because I know I could be.

SPEAKER_01 38:30

So you still wanted to travel, right?

SPEAKER_04 38:32

It still wasn't just you traveling the world. No way. In fact, it made me want to travel more because I thought I could do that, I could do that on my own, I could keep traveling. Yeah. So I did a self-defense course for women. I that's when I gave myself permission to say I actually was really good in that situation. Because in that course, what I learned was um that you need to work out a way of escape when you're in a situation like that. And I know I I'm not gonna, even today, I'm not gonna, if I'm attacked from behind, I'm not gonna be able to pick up that man and throw him over my shoulder. Yeah, that only happens in the movies. I would like to. Maybe if I had a black belt and karate. So what can I do to get out of that situation? And um, I learned a lot of things from that course, and there are a lot of women who'd been through situations similar to mine. Even now, things that I learned there stay with me. Like what? Can you get it? Well, um, walk with confidence as if you know your surroundings. Look around, even if I'm walking walking the dog. You know, I see so many women on their phones, they have no idea if someone's walking behind them or following them, or be conscious of your surroundings. If you feel that someone's following you, and say you're walking past a shop window, have a look at the reflection and see if you can see them.

SPEAKER_01 39:51

You know, my daughter for a while was walking just the block near our house at sunset each night. And I told her, just wear one airpod, don't have them both in. And I kept saying to my husband, is this something we should be worried about? Like it was literally just the block by herself as a young teenager, and she wanted to just have a decompressed moment before she settled down for the night and she liked looking at the sunset. My boys would go running at night. Never once did I tell, like, I would tell them, don't put both airpods because you need to listen for a car. But her, I said you need to look out for other people, like make sure that if anyone is giving you a vibe that they're dodgy or whatever. And it makes me cross that I have to tell her that. It's annoying that we have to constantly have this low-level surveillance of our safety all the time. And also I was worried she was walking the same route route. And maybe the same time, yeah, too.

SPEAKER_04 40:47

She needs to mix it up a bit. Because that's the other thing. Don't walk at the same time because people get to clock you as she's she'll be turning up at this time. The other thing was um I then lived on my own for a number of years. I was very conscious of being on my own. So I used to walk from the train station to my house. I used to walk through a laneway. One of the things that I learnt through the course is um pull out your house keys and have the ring around your middle finger and have the key ready, like a pointing key. And if someone comes up to you, and I'm I'm thinking male perpetrator, for example, um, you attack them in their vital parts, which is their Adam's apple and their groin, which is really vulnerable.

SPEAKER_01 41:32

And I mean, how many women have walked with a key between their fingers?

SPEAKER_03 41:36

I feel like it's a good thing. We we do it. I do it. Don't you think to do a self-defense course to know that we don't I hate walking back through a car park to my car by myself. Yes. I there's a constant fear, and I've had this conversation with my husband. Women walk around constantly, risk assessing, you know, there's not lights in that street, I won't walk down that street, or I can run to that house if anything happens. Like it's exhausting. It's tightened alert all the time. And it is exhausting. It is. And we all walk around like that. And I think when you're young, you think you're invincible.

SPEAKER_04 42:07

It's not gonna happen to me. Yeah. And it's, you know, it's a lovely feeling, but unfortunately, um, that's you know the bubble gets burst.

SPEAKER_01 42:14

Yes. I think it's also I've had a few conversations at like author events because my second book talks about women's safety. And I've had actually men come up to me at the end of some of the events and say to me openly, I've never thought about this. But then I have I had another event where a guy told me he runs along the path next to the train station. And he said, I hate when I'm coming up to a woman because I never know what to say. Like I want to kind of say, Coming up on the right, or I'm not gonna rape you. I'm not one of those guys. Like, but I think some of the things they tell us, or maybe to educate men, is if you're walking up behind a woman, cross the road. Yes. Like just give her signs that I am not a risk to you because we don't know which one of you is gonna be the guy at Athens Airport who takes us in the car. Exactly.

SPEAKER_04 43:07

Because all your other experiences were friendly, happy locals who I mean, you always worry about having your passport robbed or being someone taking a bag, but to be actually confined in someone's car is really scary.

SPEAKER_01 43:22

Very scary. I have said to my kids, actually, not really thinking from that point of view, but you know, young men particularly in a car with someone who's driving erratically or driving in a way they shouldn't. I have told them, instead of saying, like, stop you scaring me or whatever, tell them you're gonna vomit because nobody wants to vomit in their car. So then it might actually get them to pull over on the side of the road. Thankfully they haven't been in those situations. But I'm not sure that would have worked with these two guys. I didn't think of that.

SPEAKER_03 43:53

But what what you did did work.

SPEAKER_04 43:55

Thank you, yeah, God. I and I think what I learned from the course is that What saved me in that situation in Greece was that a perpetrator picks on someone who they think will just cower in fear. But I didn't. Yeah. I I fought back. And I think that's the same if someone's following you, because these perpetrators will not go and attack another man. They attack a woman because they think that she's the weaker sex. So if you turn around and show them that you've seen them, you know what they look like. And if you walk with confidence, they might leave you because they want someone who they know will not fight back. But all that you can do is is trust your instinct and basically try to get away. And defend yourself. And defend yourself. I still check the back of my car before I get into the car, even though the car's locked. Do you remember that? I think it was was it Paul Danya? Yes. In the 90s. If I'm if I go, if I've filled my car with petrol and I'm going to go and pay for it, I lock my car.

SPEAKER_03 44:56

Because he was in the back of it. I always look in the back seat because of that case. Yes. Always. Yes. Always. And that's why I like having um a station wagon so I can see there's no one in the back. Like all these things, we factor into our daily lives because of the fear of being attacked or hurt or whatever. No matter how old you are, no matter it still can happen to you.

SPEAKER_01 45:18

Yeah. And this is why when I talk about equality for women, we can't have equality until we're safe. Yes. Because we are so exhausted, our mental load, this is just standard every day for us, isn't it? Like it's just always in the background.

SPEAKER_04 45:32

After the doing the defence course, they said you can always ask police to come in to your house and tell you how to make it safe if you're living on your own. And so I did ask a policewoman friend to come in at that stage. I was having the house renovated. I had tradies who knew I lived on my own. So she said one of the things you could do, and this sounds a bit silly, but it I I did it, is to put a pair of men's shoes out the front. As if someone I love that every now and again comes and stays with you. So I had a friend, he had size 14 shoes and they were out the front. What a really great idea. Yeah. And the other thing was she said, you actually need a screen door that locks. So when someone comes to your door, you're talking to them through the screen door. Just a door means that they could push it open and get into your house because it's often the element of surprise. You don't expect them to do that and they do it and you're caught by surprise. So proactive of you to have initiated all this. Again, it was um it was like the preparation I did for the holiday. Yeah. And it was preparation for living on my own. Because I wanted to be happy living on my own. I didn't want to live in fear.

SPEAKER_01 46:40

And you don't want to shrink who you are because you become this scared person who makes their world small. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 46:47

So then I thrived. I travelled, had a job with um uh Victoria University where I worked on projects and we went overseas, and I still travel a lot. And the memory of what happened in Athens sort of muted. And then there was a situation in 2008 where a young Alban girl went missing. She was um, I think 21. And she was missing for about 18 days, and it was really big in the news. Her parents didn't know what had happened. And that was in Croatia. In Croatia. She was travelling on her own, but she was staying, I think, in a backpackers hotel, and someone noticed that she hadn't come to the hotel, and they they made the alert. Because the problem is when you're traveling on your own, there's no one who knows that you're missing. Yep. So you Especially without phones in those days. You don't have that accountability. But even with phones, like my husband and I travel a lot, there's places you can go to. There's there's no phone signal, so you can still be in danger. And then her body was found. And people said, Oh, she was last seen in a nightclub. And again, it was a bit like what you said about um Eurydice and what the police said about women needing to make themselves not go out. She was almost pillared in the media about being too adventurous and too risky. How dare she be adventurous?

SPEAKER_03 48:03

Keep women small. How dare she go out and have fun at a nightclub? I thought As a 20-year-old. God, that's so unfair. You know, victim blaming. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 48:13

And and that memory just came up for me all over again. Only this time it wasn't fear, it was anger. Good. We like a bit of rage. It was rage. I thought women should be allowed to do what they want. And I don't think she hurt anyone. I I didn't hurt anyone, you know, someone wanting to hurt me or someone who murdered her.

SPEAKER_01 48:36

How disrespectful to her family and her memory saying, well, had she not gone to the nightclub. Rather than say, wow, look at this young woman.

SPEAKER_04 48:43

Yeah, you know in the prime of her having fun, enjoying life and being so brave. So what did you do with the rage? Uh what did I do with the rage? Nothing really. I it was more healing for me and less questioning of what I did. It was moving on. I did have a few nightmares because it all came back. And I saw that man's face and his yellow t-shirt, and I remember he had a he had a hairy back. Remember that pretty well. Um Yeah. It I just sort of let it go. And now my kids are travelling. How do you feel? Well, I just think, good on you, that sense of adventure, but be careful. Do they know the story now about you? I might have mentioned I'm going on a podcast. You're gonna know now. I don't think they were even listening.

SPEAKER_03 49:32

And they might may not listen to this either, but Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 49:36

But I think um I don't want to curb their wonderlust. I think it's great that that kids travel and they feel confident enough to do that. And it's a great learning experience about yourself travel. Very true. Um, but I just just angers me that it still happens that men don't learn. You know, this is generation after generation after generation. And sure there are bad women out there too, but the perpetrator for me was a man.

SPEAKER_01 50:01

And so And an entitlement to women.

SPEAKER_00 50:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:03

I will take you where I want to go, and I will do to you what I want to do.

SPEAKER_04 50:07

To me, her recommended about the ring. She said women can be fair game. I didn't understand what she meant until it happened to me. Yeah. Um thank God for that woman and her advice.

SPEAKER_01 50:18

Yes. Yeah. Her wisdom was passed on to you. And thank God I took it. Yeah. Didn't um probably saved your life.

SPEAKER_04 50:26

Yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 50:27

And I I mean that's the problem when you're young. You don't listen to people. Um, how did the experience um impact the way you lived the rest of your life? Was it always there in the background or did you you said you compartmentalized it. Yes. But it often came back at certain times. So how did it impact how you lived your life?

SPEAKER_04 50:49

Well, I look, I still I still traveled, um, but I wanted to be with people traveling. Um and even now I still love travel. I think that's the way you learn. But but what I learned from that was that I had been prepared in that situation. If I didn't know the the length of time it should take from the airport to the hotel, I would have just thought, oh well, he's just taking the long route. So I learnt that preparation is is important to have that um that calmness in your mind that you've done the best that you can in a situation. So it's a bit like, you know, when you go to a a country that you need to have vaccinations. You go and have all the vaccinations because you know that you've got this safeguard against getting sick. So it's the same with with even now the way um if I take the dog for a walk, I'll make sure it's at different times of the day. I don't do the same time every day. Yeah. Um it's controlling the controllables. Yes. Yeah. And not being laissez-faire about, oh, it'll, you know, I'm I'm an older woman now and who's oh it it happens, you know.

SPEAKER_03 52:01

Um and it happens to good people randomly. Mary, you're a writer and a storyteller. Why is it important that women share their stories?

SPEAKER_04 52:10

I think if if someone's listening to this and nodding, or someone's said, I've had a similar experience, I want people to know that it's not it's not them, it's not me. We're not at fault. Right? We're just going about our business. Women do have a tendency to well, I do, turn myself inside out, going over minudely a situation. And at the end of the day, I did what I could in that situation, and I was fortunate that I got away. He could have not listened to me, and he could have he could have killed me because I'm noisy, I'm trouble, he could have raped me and left me there. I don't know what his intentions were, but I know they weren't good. Yeah. The other thing I wanted to point out, and I didn't mention this, when I got into his car, there was a real strong smell of disinfectant. Why? And that was another thing that concerned me. And you know, when the memory comes back, so does that smell of disinfectant. It's really weird. Do you watch true crime? I do watch a lot of true crime. Um, and I think I watch it too because I like profiling people now. I think what kind of a person does that too? Because we're all born as innocent children, aren't we? Yeah. So what makes a person choose cruelty over kindness, you know, as they get older? What makes them bad? And I think that's why I have an interest in true crime.

SPEAKER_03 53:33

And do you have an answer? What makes someone turn bad? Nature, nurture?

SPEAKER_04 53:38

I don't know. I think maybe some people are intrinsically bad. I've talked to police who say some people are just unsavable. They just that's just the way they are. It's in their DNA. They're evil, they're bad, and it's bad luck if you meet them. And the other thing that that stays in my mind too is that through the course I learned that women will they they have a nurturing, caring instinct and they don't want to hurt people. The perpetrator will want to hurt you. So you have to let that go and do what you can. Like we said, holding the key and trying to hit the mo where it hurts.

SPEAKER_03 54:16

And listening to the intuition, because it sounds like that was key for you as well to help you in the moment save yourself. You you strongly were guided by that.

SPEAKER_04 54:26

I I think that um listen your intuition, your gut reaction is so right. And it's like a little voice inside of you that is guiding you. And I think you do have to listen to it. And sometimes sometimes we don't. Or I want to get out of a car, or but in that situation, you don't for a number of reasons. So yeah, listen to your intuition. It's just so important. And that's what saved me, I think.

SPEAKER_01 55:08

Intuition plus preparation. Yes. Like you say, you knew how far the the hotel or hostel was from the airport. Yes. You knew how long it should take, you knew how much it should cost. Yes. And we're not saying that everyone has to take a spreadsheet with them. No, no, we're not. I mean, it certainly helped in your situation because then you could confirm to yourself no the facts and the evidence were confirming what you were feeling as well. Yes, certainly preparation. You learned a lot about yourself. Traveling alone that forced you, you know, to become a confident person who trusted your instinct.

SPEAKER_04 55:43

Yes, yeah. Um, and I do now. Like I I travel with my husband and I often rely on him for to work out where we're going. And you kind of it's it's really funny. Like you kind of let go a bit and you sort of rely on other people. But when you're on your own, you've just got yourself. Yeah. And you've really got to rely on yourself and do whatever you can to arm yourself with information.

SPEAKER_01 56:09

So if there's anyone listening right now who has a story they've buried, perhaps that they were worried how would impact their family, or what would you say to them?

SPEAKER_04 56:21

I would say when you're ready, talk about it. If you're not ready, let it go um for a bit. Because people will give you a reaction. And sometimes it's not what you expect. And I didn't want to be blamed. And I worried that some people would say, Oh my god, you got in that car. You know, did you check that it was a taxi? And they were all the things that I was saying to myself, and I didn't want to hear them from someone else. Yeah. And you often are very sensitive to people's reactions. So just when you're ready, talk about it. If you need to talk about it to a psychologist or someone, a therapist, rather than churn over it, then go and talk to someone about it. I've always been someone who can put things into compartments. If something is worrying me at four in the morning, I'll just say to myself, I can't do anything about it now. Put that aside and go to sleep. We'll deal with it in the morning. And I've gotten better and better at that. I would like to have that sketch.

SPEAKER_01 57:21

Trying to solve all the world's problems at 3 a.m. Yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 57:24

It's the worst time, isn't it? Yeah. Um and sometimes the mind is too strong, you know, it it it just keeps churning. But most of the time, I think that self-talk of I can't do anything about it now. And when you wake up in the morning, the problems are uh never as big as they were when you were churning them at four in the morning, are they? Like it's just so weird that you get up and you go, ugh, I could deal with that.

SPEAKER_01 57:50

Well, aren't we lucky? Yeah, what a great story. Well, the broader story of women's safety, isn't it? Yes. Like it's still relevant.

SPEAKER_04 57:57

Again, it's not women's fault. No, we are going about our business and we should be left alone.

SPEAKER_01 58:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 58:03

So that's my message. And I think I think the benefit, there's not many benefits about getting older, but the one benefit I find is hindsight and being able to work things out.

SPEAKER_03 58:15

Well, as you said at the start, you're looking for wisdom, but you actually have it. Yeah. Well, that confidence. That hindsight is your wisdom.

SPEAKER_04 58:22

You know, you've had your skin for this many years, so you feel comfortable with yourself and you're like, no, that's not my stuff. And that wasn't my fault, you know? So I think that's that's the best thing about being a woman these days and and having women friends. I think that's just so important to us. So thank wonderful. Thank you for letting me tell the story. Oh wow. And just tell us where you're off to next quickly. Um, going to Africa, Egypt, and Turkey. Oh, wow. Can I come? I've had so much vaccinations, I think, I'd blow in the dark. Uh again. And I've always wanted to go to Egypt. But again, people have said, look, some of those places, despite the war that's going on, some of those places are not safe for women. So we're doing tours. We wish you safe travels and more adventure. Oh, I will never stop travelling. I just really love it.

SPEAKER_01 59:18

So much for your time, Aaron. It's been wonderful. Thanks, Mary. Thanks for listening to That Day with Kylie and Jack. If this story stirred something in you, if you've had that day, we'd love to hear from you. Find us on Instagram at That Day Podcast or get in touch via email. Hosts at thatdaypodcast.com. Your story matters.

SPEAKER_02 59:40

We're listening.

SPEAKER_03 59:42

We record that day in Narm on the lands of the Waranjri Boywarong people of the Kulin Nation. We pay our respects to elders, past, present, and honor their enduring tradition of storytelling.