One Wanted To Save Souls And The Other Wanted To Sell Cereal

Welcome to Tell Me Something You Don't Know, where we explore curiosities without credentials. We're your factually adjacent hosts, Maddie and Sarah. Every week we exchange random topics with just enough research to keep things interesting and slightly accurate. So lower your bars and let's learn something you never knew you wanted to know. 

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How am I doing? Well, good. I good. I can't believe you. I am. I am. I'm doing good. I'm I don't sound convincing. I'm good. I'm just tired. I committed to working out. Um yes. I need to do that. Yeah, and it's been going like decently well, but I also have like added in these, I've realized that I'm more inclined to do something. Wait, I can hear myself echoing. Oh, I can't hear you echo at all. Okay. Well, trust that that's not a problem. Um welcome to Tell Me Something You Don't Know, where we explore curiosities without credentials. We're your factually adjacent hosts, Maddie and Sarah. Every week we exchange random topics with just enough research to keep things interesting and slightly accurate. So lower your bars and let's learn something you never knew you wanted to know. Yeah, I realize that I'm more inclined to do something if there's like a practicality around it. So if you're explaining. So like if you're like working out in some way or or being active while also maybe getting from one place to another or uh like doing something that needs to get done is what you're talking about. Yes, but another version of that is taking the stairs up my condo. Wow. So wait, sorry. So your workout regime is walking and taking the stairs. No, no, no. So I go to the gym, but like to add to add like another level. I'm like, you know what? Oh yeah, like literally pun intended. Um, yes, I am like, okay, well, you have to get back up to your home, your apartment. So instead of waiting for an elevator, let's take the stairs. And I'm just more inclined to do it because I'm like, I'm I'm going home and I work it out. Listen, I am older than you, so I got this reminder when seeing, oh my god, what are their names? Joanne and body breaks. Does that ring any bells to you? Does that jingle do anything to your heart? It doesn't, but I enjoyed it nonetheless. Is you need to look up body breaks when we are done here. And it basically would be these like commercials where this man and woman would be like, hey, you know what's really important? Moving your body intentionally. And they'd be like, take the stairs instead of taking the escalator. Like basically what you're talking about. So like I already, I already been educated in the ways. It's not very revolutionary of you. No. I mean, fair enough. And yes, that is a good assessment. Like, you do have to get home. Yeah. Well, and I do kind of like what you just explained. I do like when you're at the airport and they have those like fast walking sidewalk things. I'm like, no, I'm gonna, like, I'm literally about to, or have just sat down for probably a chunk of time on a plane. Like, I'm gonna push a move my body, or if yes, there's an escalator, like I'll try to take the stairs. But I do live on the 19th floor, so it's quite damn. Yeah, that is that's good. Yeah, by the 10th one, I am like, kill me. But now I've realized that I've done it a few times. There's you know, there's other people that do that, and I think people going downstairs that don't want to wait for the elevator, so I'm there literally dying, like like struggling so hard to breathe. Yeah, uh, so that's always fun. But anyway, do you track your steps? Like, do you have a step track? I don't, I don't. I I feel like you should get one. You also feel like the type of person who doesn't want one. That's correct. That is correct. But here's the thing is that if you I've in my old age, uh, because I'm turning into a 40-year-old this year. Oh wow, which obviously means I'm incredibly wise and and provide sage advice, is that you these are like good ideas, but literally nothing at all matters unless you were doing it consistently. You could literally stop saying literally. You could stop saying literally, Sarah is what you could do. But what you, Madison, could do is just do 10 jumping jacks a day. And if you did that every single day for a whole year, it would be more beneficial than having like these spurts of like, I'm gonna take the stairs. Not saying that it's a spurt and to put down your enthusiasm around it. But I feel like consistency is key, which is also not revolutionary. We're basically just saying stuff that everybody knows about everybody. You know what you should do? Take the stairs instead of the elevator. And you know what's important? Consistency is key. No, it's it's very true. I definitely agree. I just don't have A, I guess I just don't want to invest in a device. B, not that they're, I mean, not that they're like crazy expensive. B, I do track, so I have like um, oh, it's like a whole thing, but I won't, so like a bullet journal, but like I've figured out a system for like tracking things like two liters of water a day and making sure I walk 10 8 to 10k steps and like and then I check at the end of my day, I do check so like I track things getting done so that the consistency is there. I just don't track in a way that's like you know if you did eight to ten thousand steps. Oh, because well, because you I mean you can measure those things without a device. Like I know that well, eight kilometers is about that amount of steps. Oh, okay. So you know Yeah, like I just most people do this, I think. I just don't I it's mostly that I just don't have a device, and I'm like, uh yeah, like maybe eventually. And I know I know that about 10,000 steps is like my if I walk to work and back, that's about half of that goal. So then I'll I'll try and go down by the water and walk like another like four or five. It feels like the olden days, just like knowing how many steps are in a general area. So like good for you. Yeah, I mean, I uh yeah, I'm horrible, as you know, with self-discipline. So I need to me and me and Matt bought watches and I think I've worn them. It's probably been like a month, I'd say, maybe two. And I've probably worn it like so. Here's the thing about me is I'm a preacher. I love to tell people, like, I'm like, listen, you know what you need to do, you need to do it consistently. You should track it, you should get a device. Ask me how many times I've worn my device. It drives Matt insane. He's just like, we bought these Mother F and watches, and you're not even wearing them. It's like charged. And the reason that we got these watches is because I lost my other watch, and Matt's like, okay, like let's start tracking our steps. We'll get brand new updated watches. I'm like, yes, that's totally gonna help. I really think that's like one of the blockers, is that I don't have a watch to like see how many steps I've done or not. And then I got the watch, and I think it's been charged and used probably five days out of a month. So this is hilarious to me because you made me feel genuinely like. Yeah, that's my vibe. That's my vibe. I like to just be like, listen, here's really good ad yeah advice, and then I don't follow it. I mean, fair enough, but this is exactly why I think because I would be the same as you. Like, I don't think I would wear it, and I don't think I would do much with it. So I feel like I just need to instill things like that. It's a really bad idea. You're just gonna feel bad about yourself. Um, you're gonna feel bad that you don't wear the watch and that you spent money on it. Yeah, like I've been, yeah, I think exactly. I don't think I would like actually get good use out of it. I think my best bet is to just like incorporate the things that I need to get done into like things that need to get done. So like I need to go to the office, I'm gonna get my steps in, I need to get back up to my apartment, so I'm gonna climb those stairs. And yeah, anyway, that's I mean, listen, I work at home and don't have any there's like 10 stairs to get from the bottom floor of my house to the next. So I need serious motivation to move my body. It's the problem. I need to figure out I know it's really hard when you have a desk job, man. I I'm sure you can relate. Sarah and I both worked for WestJet um at some point in our life, and I think about the time where like I was a GSA and then like a CSA, which basically just means I'm walking the airport all the time, all the time, the whole shift about that, and you would just clock 25,000 steps, no problem. And you were a flight attendant, you're constantly on your feet, and like any job all the time, and so any job where you're just moving constantly, like that was for sure with the least amount of effort, the fittest I ever was because for sure, you're just not sitting down for eight hours. So now I'm just basically like my watch now is like, are you okay? So I get shamed by it. Maybe that's why I put it in the corner and was like, enough of you making me feel bad about not moving around. Or it'll be like, stand up. Oh yeah, it's like those annoying little it's like when Netflix is like, Are you still watching? How about I'm still watching, okay? Yes, I watched five episodes in a row and I'm still going. Yes, I am. Oh, goodness. Good times, good times. Anyway, how uh how are you doing? I'm good. I have insane allergies. I've like developed allergies since having kids, which is just another joy to look forward to. Um super in the magic that is creating life, and I have terrible allergies. I basically look like I'm going through a mental breakdown at all times, which in fairness, like I'm always on the brink. So it's not, it's just the outside is matching my inside a little bit more accurately, but the the re like the reason is I assume pollen or just stuff flying through the air. My eyes are so itchy, my nose is runny, it's just not a good time. And I don't know when it ends because this is all new to me. I've never had allergies before. That sucks, man. Because I was just having this conversation with a friend the other day because we were walking and there was like it was kind of windy and there's just lots of like pollen blowing around. Yeah, just hair. Yeah, and I was like, my goodness, this would suck for people who have allergies. And I was like, thank god I don't have allergies. Like, what a miserable me. I went outside to have, I'm like, oh, it's so nice out. I'm gonna have like my morning coffee outside, had a couple sips, had to go inside and nearly like scratched my own eyeballs out. It was so itchy. And then the other day, me and Matt went for dinner and I was like, ooh, let's sit on the patio. And the whole time my nose is just like pouring, and I'm like, this is so nice. Like, I'm positive every time the woman came to like check on us, she basically was like, Oh my god, blink twice if this man is abusing you. Like, there's you know what I mean? Like, I just looked a hot mess, and like Matt's like, I'm a nice guy, I swear. So my gosh. And then while we were there, there were uh there was a couple that was definitely on their first date, which is such a gift, don't you think? Like, what are you like the concept of it? And then no, to get that I get to witness it. Oh yeah, that is a gift, you know. I'm like, wow, thank you. Thank you for providing because they sat down and right off the bat, I'm like, you two are not going to work out. His just outfit was not not to be rude, but it just wasn't, it didn't match hers. And she was like very prim and proper, and he had like gray jeans that had like rips all the way down, very brightly colored sneakers, and just was different from what she was wearing, which was like pearls and like very put together, just two obviously completely different vibes. Yes, and they sat down and like kind of started talking, and then she's like, I don't even think I can finish my drink. Um, I like I really have so much to do. I'm like, oh my gosh, she is took real time turning this man down, and it is, and I felt so bad because he seemed like a really nice man, but like she's also like, I'm not gonna waste my time, we are not gonna work. So, you know, she basically they paid, she didn't finish her drink, he finished his, and she was like, We could maybe go for a walk, and then like I have to leave. Oh my lord, this is god, the world of dating really just absolutely terrifies me. That sounds horrible, but I mean, I guess well she knew what she wanted, and it was not that, I guess. Poor guy. It's like okay. Honestly, he's like, Well, I know what is happening here, so yikes. Well, I'm glad you got to witness that. I thought honestly, it was so fun. I'm not for him, obviously, or her. Like, it was not good for either one of them, but it's just like, wow, I love that you were like, Well, what a gift. I thought I thought you were gonna be like, because it was such a cute situation. No, what a gift, it was horrible. It was horrible to get to witness such awkward moments and not have to be part of them. Like, have fun, and just and then we're just like listening in a little bit on their conversation, and I'm just like, oof, this is so awkward. Oh, see, yeah, like I don't know that I would enjoy it. I think I would I'd want to like sink into my seat and be like, help. I can literally picture you. I can picture you in my mind's eye of what you would be like. Yep, yep, yep. Like he is hunched over, pretending to look at Matt, and we're pretending to talk to each other, but both of us are listening to the conversation. Very intrusive. It's so funny. Okay, well, with that, I think we should jump in. And you, my friend, are first this week. Oh, baby, buckle up. I'm buckled up. Very excited. Uh please everybody know that Sarah messages me almost ahead of every single recording to be like, I'm so excited about my topic. Just not talking about random things. No, it's incredible. And I am too, but it just gets me so nervous because I'm like, she's bringing the bacon, you know. Oh gosh, don't think that. I feel like I'm just excited to talk to you and just talk in general about random shit. So I get excited about it. Don't ever no, no, no, don't ever feel bad. Oh gosh, should I need to be a issue? Now I'm nervous. I'm like, no, no, it's gonna be great. So first and foremost, I want to do like an intentional callback because our previous episode, they're on the tail end of my topic. I feel like I left us with more questions than answers around World War One. So I did just want to clarify a couple things. One of which I was gonna say is hilarious, but like it's not, but like it kind of is. So we talked about Franz Ferdinand, the Archduke Franz Ferdinand of Austria-Hungary and his and how he was assassinated. But like I completely skipped over slash did not know the again, terrible wording, but the best part of his assassination. Listen, that's this is who I am. So we just need to be okay with it. Yeah, okay. So in his assassination, so again, wait, here's a test. Do you remember when World War I was? It is from 1914 to 1918. Madison, excellent job. If you had asked me that, I don't think I would have been able to answer it correctly. And I'm the one that did the topic. So kudos to you. Okay, so on June 28th of 1914, Archduke Franz Ferdinand and his wife, Sophie, arrive in Sarahevo, is how I'm gonna pronounce it. However, that gives it a Spanish flair, and I do not think that that's correct. However, there's a group of young Serbian nationalist assassins, and they are waiting along his route, and it's go time. So the first assassin loses his nerve. He's like, ooh, yikes, nope. The second assassin gets his chance and he throws a bomb at the Archduke's car and it explodes under a vehicle behind them. So doesn't work out. Several people are injured, but like all in all, it's a fail. The assassin himself tries to swallow cyanide. He's like, uh oh, that did not work. I don't want to go to jail and like you know, be tortured to give up information. I'm swallowing the cyanide. Doesn't work. So he's just just very sick. So then he's like, oh no, I'm gonna jump into the river. The river is only a few inches deep. So now he's just very alive sick and getting arrested. So at this point, the assassination plot has it's like a complete fail. It's not it, they're like, Well, we tried, that's terrible. So the Archduke continues on his way, he's all like, All right, silly assassins couldn't even get it right. He goes to uh scheduled during his day. He wanted to go visit the wounded victims in the hospital. So his strive his driver starts going, but he like takes a wrong turn. He's like, Oh shoot, I well discombobulated. They pull over to try and like get their bearings of where they need to go. So the car slows down and then it stops. And it is sheer coincidence that the 19-year-old assassin that lost his nerve originally was just at a nearby cafe or delicatessen, just lamenting over the fact that he failed at this assassination. He's like, Oh man, what am I gonna do with my life? You know, I was gonna be an assassin, but it didn't work out. And then he looks up and he sees the Archduke right in front of him a few feet away. So he pulls out his pistol, he kills Franz Ferdinand, and he kills Sophie as well, and they they die. So which is nuts. Like, if you think about it, they basically took a wrong turn and then just pulled up in front of the assassin and was like, oh, well, I'm getting a second chance. And that's how the Archduke, France Ferdinand, dies. That's assassinated. Crazy. It sounds like a comedic spin off. That's what I mean by it's so funny. And obviously, death is not funny, however, we're so far away from it, and it does seem just so Scooby-doo-ish, you know? It's like total. And then the other question we had was like, well, okay, if if Austria-Hungary is fighting with Serbia, then like how on earth did we come into it? So I'm gonna give you a quick rundown. And when I say we, I mean America, because I did not actually look into how Canada got involved. I assume America was like, we're going, and we were like, all right, here we come. You know, but but here's how it goes. So Austria slash Hungary, who claim the archbishop archbishop, um, is that arch nope, archduke. Why am I making him a bishop? Anyway, they blame Serbia. They're like, guys, you can't be trying to, well, effectively killing our Archduke. So Austria-Hungary has Germany backing them. Germany is like, we got your back, don't you worry. Serbia has Russia backing them. So Russia mobilizes, they're like, shit feels like it's gonna get bad. So like let's mobilize, which I believe just means that you're like getting your troops together, getting your ducks in order, which to the outside world of Ger Germany, they're like, uh-oh, they're preparing for a fight. Let's get ahead of it. We're declaring war on Russia. So Germany and Russia start things off being like, we're going to war. So France is allied with Russia, and Germany declares war on France. Germany's like, listen, France, if you're gonna back Russia, we don't like you anymore. We're gonna invade Belgium to get to France. Then Britain's all like, hey, we did pledge to protect Belgium, so I guess we are in this. Britain declares war on Germany because they're like, we have to protect Belgium. You're trying to attack Belgium to go through for to get to France. So, like, we gotta get in the mix now. So now it's sort of like a regional crisis becomes a continental war. Like, so now the United States stays out of it. They're like, ah, you know, we're not hopping the pond for that. It doesn't really have a whole lot to do with us, we're not worried. So then Germany begins unrestricted submarine warfare, sinking ships in the Atlantic, including ships carrying Americans. And we know how Americans feel. They're like, okay, well, if you're gonna mess with our people, now we are automatically involved, you can't mess with Americans. And then Britain intercepts a Zimmerman telegram where Germany proposed an alliance with Mexico against the United States. So the United States are like, okay, feels like you want to fight everybody, and like We aren't the ones. So in 1917, which as we know, World War I came to close in 1918, the United States enters the war, which means millions of people ended up fighting because of alliances, treaties, political calculations, and one astonishingly unlucky wrong turn. Oh my god. So listen, I just felt like my goal was to tell people about World War One in an overarching way, and I did not achieve that in the previous episode. If you have absolutely no idea what is going on, it is because you didn't listen to the previous episode. You should do that now. And I probably should have told you to do that before I just rambled on about how World War One started. That's all right. This is a good time to let the audiences know that we will do this from time to time when it feels like we've missed some significant information. But not consistently. Like if you feel like significant information and you're like, oh, they'll probably cover that next episode. Don't lower your bar. Lower your bar. For sure. But now and then it'll happen. Every now and again. So that's World War One, but that's not at all my topic, nor is it even remotely similar or related to the topic that I am going to cover. So here we go. When I say Kellogg, what do you think of? Kellogg. Yeah. Well, cereal. Yes. Correct. Correct. So I originally was gonna do a little bit of a like quick hit fun facts of like food origins that are just kind of like silly and bizarre. And then I came across this one and was like, wait a second. This is gonna be a whole topic. I'm like, this is absolutely meaty enough to be a whole topic because it is so bizarre. So I'm gonna tell you about John Harvey Kellogg. So we're in late 1800s, America is industrializing. We're like growing at a rapid speed, cities are growing, modern medicine is beginning to emerge, and into the world steps John Harvey Kellogg. And so he's a doctor, he's a surgeon, he's an author, a public speaker, a health reformer. At a glance, he sounds very impressive. And like he is, he's you know, he's got a couple titles and a couple things under his belt. And he also becomes one of the most influential wellness figures in America. So like he is one of the original influencers without obviously social media, because we're in the late 1800s, so none of that existed. So he's essentially the wellness influencer of the Victorian era, which is so interesting. Like, as I was reading this and it refers to the Victorian era, and I'm just thinking about it as a moment in time when you think about the war, not to like be crazy about the war, but like I don't think of World War One as close to the Victorian era. That's true. Do you know the exact date in which we're or we're just we're just late 19th century, late century? I think it's like 1890. I think I might got some I might have some dates in the in the in the future. Okay, okay. Yeah, I'll wait, I'll wait, I'll wait it up. Yeah, but um it is it's late, late. It's like in the 1890s. Yeah-ish. I mean, that's crazy because if you think about it, like 20 years ago was 2006, which also doesn't feel that long ago. Yeah, totally. So anyway, continue. So he was so focused on health before he started this serial empire. He became a superintendent of a place called the Battle Creek Sanitarium. And it wasn't like a small clinic. At its peak, it became one of the most famous health destinations in America. Which I was like, what does this mean? Famous. Like when we're thinking about fame in this time, I'm like, what do you, I mean, how do you how do you gauge fame? Yes. So it is where the rich, powerful, and well-connected would travel hundreds of miles just to spend a few weeks there. So people like the former US president William Howard Taft visited, industrial titans like Henry Ford and Harvey Firestone were connected to Kellogg's health movement as well, as the inventor Thomas Edison spent time there as well, as aviation pioneer Amelia Earhart. Which again, when I think about these things, like Henry Ford, yes, understand Ford motors, obviously, Harvey Firestone tires, I'm assuming. I don't think of Thomas Edison at in the same era as them. Yeah, it's so interesting. Same with like Amelia Earhart. I didn't realize like Ford and Firestone were maybe that old, or even Kellogg for that matter. No, I definitely didn't think that about Kellogg. So, and I'm sorry, he founded this place. He was a superintendent, but I do think that he was like integral in bringing it to where it was. Like it was his methods and like way of thinking that made it made it so influential. So basically, people came seeking better health to live longer, better digestion was a big thing, more energy. And once they arrived, they just they entered this his world. And it was basically strict diets, exercise regimes, hydrotherapy, fresh air, go figure, colon cleansing, electric light treatments, mechanical massage machines, what yogurt to enemas, like it was very focused on gut health. Like, does this not sound like a modern day? Like, this is something exactly like how something would be pitched today to the masses. And they would have like a bunch of these Instagram influencers oh yeah and staying like some celebrities that have a gone. Yes, yes, totally. So they had thousands of patients pass through the doors every year, newspapers wrote about it, magazines covered it, and people talked about it uh the way that people today talk about exclusive wellness retreats and celebrity health clinics. So it all sounds like above board, and you're like, yeah, that's amazing. People are, you know, we're closing out on the Victorian times, apparently. Is it Victorian Times? Is that what I said? I think so. But like I'm also the wrong person now. We're going with it. We're closing out on Victorian times, we're entering like high industrial era, moving towards World War I. So, you know, this health retreat with famous people sounds great and adorable and revolutionary. But John Harvey Kellogg himself is a slightly eccentric doctor. So it's not just like, oh, I want to help people live longer and be healthy. He was obsessive about his beliefs and uh basically that food is a huge part of like negative human emotions and feelings. So he was promoting a healthy living, but he was really trying to solve what he believed to be one of humanity's greatest threats, which was sexual desire. What an absolute turn of events. Because the the entire time you've been talking, I'm like, when when in the world are we is this is this guy about to he's gonna create this sugar-coated cereal and like then his reputation is gonna nope, we're gonna talk about we're gonna talk about wanting to really uh fix the world through suppressing sexual desire and not like excessive sexual desire, like weird kinks or anything like that, just like true sexual desire in general. Oh my god. He believed that sexual urges were responsible for an astonishing number of physical and mental problems, like weakness, fatigue, poor health, moral decline, even insanity. So to him, self-control wasn't simply a virtue, it was the foundation of health itself, driven by like this obsession that sexual desire could be controlled by food. And okay, so also many Victorians, this was also some of what led it. I feel like there was sort of a movement going on in general within the Victorian era that genuinely believed that stimulating foods uh could stimulate behavior. So he believed that spicy foods were dangerous, rich foods were dangerous, alcohol was dangerous, coffee was dangerous, like all of these different things would lead to sexual desire, would like uh just mess you all up. So being as boring as possible was the point. Like his fitness regimes, his diets that he would have everybody on were just very bland and like very, very simple. How sad. And like, I know, I know. He he reportedly slept in a separate bedroom from his wife despite being married for decades. The couple never had biological children, and instead they adopted dozens of children over the years. Some sources say more than 40 passed through their care. So, like whether it was adopted or like, oh my gosh, what is the other one? Adopted or when you have kids. Like a surrogate? No, no, no, no. Like when kids stay with you for a short time. Oh, foster. Yes, foster care. Yeah. Um surrogate back in the disregard. That wouldn't make any sense for that. You never know. You never know. So he saw himself as like not a businessman, not a food inventor. He was a reformer, someone trying to reshape human behavior. And it was just a very weird obsession that he had. So now Q cornflakes. So breakfast changed forever when Kellogg and his brother Will Keith Kellogg were experimenting with grains, which as we know are very boring and bland. So just right in line with his like pledge to save the world with boring bland food so as to not stimulate sexual urges. According to the story, they accidentally left cooked wheat sitting too long. When they tried processing it, it formed these flakes. So eventually they experimented with corn as well, and most people would have thought that's pretty good breakfast food. Like we like it. Kellogg saw something else. It was bland food, it was simple food, it was food that fit perfectly within his philosophy. So cornflakes weren't designed to excite people, they were designed to calm them down. And the original cereal wasn't sweet at all, it wasn't fun, it wasn't intended to be indulgent, it was just a means to an end to fuel your body in the least exciting way. Oh my gosh, this is crazy. And Will is like, no, this is revolutionary, but it's revolutionary because we can make this into a serious business. And John, he's like, Well, I want it to be a health movement, I want it to be a morality movement. Will is like, no, we need customers and we're adding sugar. Yeah, that'll do it. John hates it, and the brothers fought and fought and fought, and eventually the relationship completely deteriorated. But Will understood something that John did not, that people like food that tastes good. You know? So fair assessment. He had the version that won. He basically was like, I'm turning this, I'm taking it, I'm turning it into a multi-trillion billion dollar company. And that is where the Kellogg dynasty was created. One wanted to save souls and the other wanted to sell cereal. That's nuts. I also just think it's hilarious that the one who wanted to save souls thought that like this is it. This is it, this is the answer, and like no sexual desire is part of saving souls. Yeah. Isn't that nuts? And now Kellogg is just everywhere, it owns everything. That's so crazy. And so that's my introduction to the crazy Kellogg dynasty creation. That's a good one. Did you ever like Kellogg? Did you ever like cereal? Like frosted flakes? Um, frosted flakes. They're great, right? That's those kids, right? Yeah, I think so. They really he went all the way. He was like, not only are we going to add sugar, but a talking tiger is also gonna promote these motherfuckers. Did I ever like them? I kind of, I guess. I liked rice crispies with sugar, and then I also really loved mini wheats, those were really good. And then obviously the like toasted cinnamon crunch was delicious, clearly. And I just like I also like not anymore. I don't eat cereal now just because like it is incredibly unhealthy for you. But I also just liked a like Cheerio, like honey nut Cheerio, just simple basic. Yep. Stacked fruit fruit loops. Oh, cereal is so good. But it is a dessert. It's so it is absolutely a dessert, and not even like a yeah, it's so bad for you, but it is delicious. Um okay. Well, that was that's very interesting. Like I it makes you wonder who's behind everything, the world. I mean, truly, truly, truly. I want to just check how much of the industry does Kellogg own today. And like, what is the industry? Breakfast? I don't know. I feel like it owns more than cereal though. Like, I think it's okay, wait. Today the cereal business is much smaller than it was in the 1980s and 90s because people eat protein bars, yogurt, breakfast sandwiches, smoothies. Okay, so we're like healthier. Oh, the thing that made them so successful is the thing that Kellogg wanted originally is that everybody be healthier, but he really tied it to sexual urges, so that's not actually what he wanted, but it is exceptionally smaller. I wouldn't have thought that. Well, I mean, I would have, I guess I kind of would have, maybe. Just because it's whether it's because people want to be healthy or not, it's cool to not eat crap. So I sort of thought it was similar to like Pepsi or like you know, like the massive companies that own not just the thing, like cereal, it also owns like everything. So many other like how everything is basically owned by like a couple companies, like big parent companies. Yeah. I kinda thought Kellogg was one of those, but I guess not. It controls roughly 25 to 28% of the ready-to-eat cereal market in North America. I love that there's a ready-to-eat cereal market. Well then, look at that. Okay, well. Interesting that there's like kind of a small underlying screen. Yeah, okay. Between ours. Today I'm gonna talk to you about Project MK Ultra. Do you know what that is? Yes, this is a big one. I know. Okay, yes, it is. So, like, disclaimer, it is huge. And before I came across this one, I was researching in general human experimentation. Yep, as you do. As you do. And I was like, okay, I'll take like a few. And then I came across this one and several others, and was like, absolutely not. It's gonna have to be one because wow. I so you do know about it. I didn't enough to tell anyone else about it, though. Like, I just know that it's a thing that existed and I think has something to do with like the government and mind control. That's all I know. Okay, okay, okay. Cool. Well, let me start off by saying that uh unethical human experimentation, such as like experiments conducted obviously without informed consent or those that just in general cause harm, is strictly prohibited under international law and the domestic laws of most countries. So don't come for us, government. We are stating out loud that you were not technically allowed to do it. Also, not sure if you caught it, but it said most countries. So not all, although I tried to do some research and find like what ones where it's not necessarily banned. And it everywhere just keeps saying not all countries, not all countries, but will not say which ones do. We'll not say which ones do. Um, this is such a rabbit hole that I just live in because Matt is obsessed with this kind of stuff. So like, oh yeah. Also, speaking of like things not being that long ago, it wasn't until 1974 that the US Congress changed the rules in inform and that being that informed consent is now required for any government-funded medical study involving human subjects. 1974. Oh no. Obviously, if you ever, and there's so much about human experimentation, and it's all incredibly obviously like devastating and sad. A lot of human experimentation historically involves prisoners of warfare. Again, it's it is a massive rabbit hole, and it's very sad. And like I I wouldn't recommend reading up on it for like a long time if you don't want to like hate the world. Right. Stay in a good spot mentally. Yeah, and like take a break because it's sad. And a lot of a lot of human experimentation was also conducted on the premise of like racism, homophobia, and other acts of like systemic discrimination, just super awful. And like, truly, there's a a lot of bad bad stuff all over the world. One small example of human experimentation before we dive into Project MK Ultra, just to like because again, this is not that yeah with the whistle, because this is just not that long ago. Anyways, the monster study. Have you heard of this? No, okay. It was a non-consensual experiment performed on 22 orphan children in 1939. Children, Madison, Olivia. This is yeah, I'm so sorry. It's a bit of a dark discount. All right. Listen, we start off with breakfast cereal, so like, you know, balance. Yeah. Okay. This did result in the subjects from negative reinforcement group. Because there were four groups. I won't even go into the full study, but ultimately it was around stuttering. Oh. One of the groups was labeled negative reinforcement. So my God, this makes me want to die. Yes, I won't go into the details. Please don't. Yeah. I just think about how pure children are. Like I think about kids. Correct. Correct. First of all, if somebody is stuttering, like, oh, to even to even be put into even consensually, to be put into something that makes you feel like you are like different. And even on the lightest level of of trying to like rehabilitate, we'll say a specific like behavior is just so sad to me. Like that's just like on a light level of just even acknowledging. It's like everybody, everybody figures things out in their own way, and like just they don't deserve to feel bad about themselves or like hurt. That makes me so sad. And that's Sarah's little speech on the thing. Oh my god, they're too pure. I know, I know. Protect them, not put them into oh gosh, I really yeah, it's really sad. And no results regarding actual stuttering were like revealed. The only thing is that negative the negative reinforcement group obviously suffered from severity lifelong psychological and emotional scars. Oh my gosh. They did receive nearly one million by the state of Iowa for those lifelong psychological per person involved in that group. I wanted to touch on that because some human experimentation, obviously, those who have been involved have their like things have gone to court. There has been compensation involved. It's obviously never enough or like all that helpful. Doesn't like take it away. It doesn't take it away, but it does. And especially for children, because it's just like once something like that happens, their innocence is dead. Like exactly. There's no going back to just being and living in a space where like nothing is bad and every everything, you know. Oh god. Yeah, exactly. So yeah, well, horrible, horrible things. And also keeping in mind that like things that you can find on the internet or read uh about these instances are just like the recorded instances. Yes. Which is the other scary thing about this kind of stuff, is just like, well, what don't we know about? Anyways, on that note, we are going to talk about one of the most well-known examples of human experimentation. So these are CIA mind control experiments. If you're familiar with Men Who Stare at Goats or the Manchurian candidate, then you know there was a period in the CIA's history when they performed covert mind control experiments. I have not seen either one of those movies. Yeah, neither have I. I've heard of Men Who Stare at Goats. I've heard of those. Now I want to watch it. I know, me too, me too. During the Cold War, the CIA started researching ways they could turn Americans into CIA-controlled superagents, people who could carry out assassinations and who wouldn't be affected by enemy interrogations. It's also important to note that the project began during a period of what English journalist Rupert Cornwell described as paranoia at the CIA when the US had lost its nuclear monopoly and fear of communism was like at an all-time high. CIA counterintelligence chief James Jesus Angleton believed that a mole had penetrated the organization at the highest levels. And so the agency poured millions of dollars into studies examining ways to influence and control the mind and enhance its ability to extract information from resistant subjects during interrogation. Oh dear. Yeah. This was also during Yeah. It was also during a time when other countries were experimenting with the like similar things and like the like truth serums and things where it was like, yeah. Oh my own. Yes. So CIA researchers experimented on unsuspecting American and Canadian, for your information, citizens by slipping them psychedelic drugs, including LSD, PCP, and barbiturates. Um don't know what any of those are except for LSD. And additionally, illegal methods, such as like hypnosis, uh chemical, biological, and like radiological agents. It also went as far as universities participating. What? Mostly as a delivery system, but without their knowledge. So the US. This is why I just don't trust any of you. I don't I know, man. I know. Trust any. We have anecdotal evidence that you should not trust. Oh my gosh. Okay. The US Department of Veterans Affairs estimates 7,000 soldiers were also involved in the research without their consent. Oh my okay, so also, hey, we're signing up to like fight for our country and for patriotism. And also we're gonna have significant mental wounds and PTSD from killing other human beings and being put in incredibly unhuman situations. But also we're gonna without you knowing, have you participate in this wild experiment. Pretty much. What is rot? Who like the energy in the room of the people who make these decisions must be so weird. I know, I know. It would be interesting to study them or just learn, or just like observe them. Never let us know they won't. When you do learn about these things, you're just like, wow, we really do have the ability to be like pure evil. Yeah. So that's pretty crazy. The fact that you would do this to people who are already in like wild circumstances is unfathomable. I just I'm like shook at the fact that people could be this diacophical. Well, and just that people think that they genuinely are better than other people, like that you think they're like entitled to make those decisions. Yeah, they're like, Yes, you can be tortured and suffer this way. I would never be. Like, that's crazy. Yeah. If it's not important to you. Yeah, true. If yeah, if you're the one that would like to figure out this discovery, you put your kids in it. You put your kids in the program and see how eager you are to find out whatever information you would like to find out. Yes. I'm getting real hot under the collar on this one. Yeah, well, it's crazy. Anyways, yes, so a little more about like the purpose behind this project. So its aim was to develop mind controlling drugs for use against specifically the Soviet bloc in response to alleged Soviet, Chinese, and North Korean use of mind control techniques, such as I was saying, like the truth serum. The CIA wanted to use similar methods on their own captives and was interested in manipulating foreign leaders with such techniques. It often concluded with experiments without the subject's knowledge or consent, and in some cases, academic researches were funded through grants from the CIA, but were again like unaware. That is crazy to me. So the CIA, it was obviously like funding, but like full-on organizations that were just somehow unaware of like what the true purpose was. The project endured for more than 20 years. Oh my god. During which the agency yeah, and it cost 20 million dollars. Of course it did. Of course it did. Yeah, I'm shocked. That seems like a low number, actually, of dollars that it would cost. I know. But I mean in 1973, I don't know what the equivalent is, but but still, yeah, it's not a date. I would have thought it would be. So 1973 is when the CIA destroyed what records were kept. Um maybe keep those records and like I don't think you should be destroying records. I think you should keep the records and be like, hey, uh, you know who we should probably keep an eye out for because this was a crazy ass thing that we did for 20 years. It cost the taxpayers tons of fucking money. Let's maybe like keep an eye on those people. Cause like, you know, that wasn't a good call. Like you shouldn't, you shouldn't. There should be records. There should be a record. Well, I think I'm gonna assume that the people who destroyed them or made that call are the ones who were heavily involved and were like, yeah, no, he's gotta go. They were destroyed by order of CIA. Well, there you go, director Richard Helms, which is why it's been someone needs to look at that guy because yeah. But and that's partly why obviously it's been difficult for like investigations to gain like a complete view and understanding of the more than, by the way, 150 funded research sub-projects sponsored by the MKUltra. So, again, like this is just what we know, and and what what I'm talking about today is again, this is like a summary version of the situation. You can go a lot deeper on it, but even if you were to go deep on it, like I think there's lots that we don't know. Yeah, because we only know what they allow us to know, which is crazy. Like, yeah, yeah. Oh my goodness. I just did a quick Richard Helms, like, who's that guy? And it's like, if you're hearing his name in connection with things like MK Ultra, Watergate scandal, Fidel Castro, Chili, Cold War covert operations, like this guy sounds like a problem. Yes, so several known deaths have been associated with this, obviously, project MKUltra. But the most notable one, which is where we're gonna end the story, is on Frank Olson. Okay. In 1951, Olsen was a United States Army biochemist and biological weapons researcher. In 1953, just a few days before his death, he quit his position as acting chief of the special operations division of Detrick, Maryland, because of a severe moral crisis concerning the nature of his biological weapons research. So this is like he's like, hey, uh, I have morals and yeah, I don't like where this is headed. Yeah, which I he died two days later? Yeah, well, just wait because it's yeah. Um, but this is an interesting one million red flags. Yeah, but see, this is like a common thing that is so fat. Talk about like rabbit holes that I just love to go down in controversies. Like Alice in Wonderland. Yes, like these weird deaths around people who have come forth about certain things, and like it's just like of course you do the Clintons uh chefs and friends. Didn't even know that, but oh man, you look into it, so many people die around them. Which allegedly. Allegedly. Yes. So some of these concerns included the development of assassination materials used by the CIA. Like these were things that were concerning him. So the CIA's use of biological warfare materials in covert operations, experimentation with biological weapons in populated areas, collaboration areas, okay. Yeah, you know what people are living, just living their lives, collaboration with former Nazi scientists under Operation Paperclip. No, it sounds very innocent. Yeah, and LSD mind control research, which is obviously what we're mostly talking about. So this is so he had all of these concerns, and like not, it's not all just under, we're not just talking about the mind control research here. Yeah, it's like the institution as a whole. Yeah, there's a big problem here. The use of psychoactive drugs during quote unquote terminal interrogations under a program codenamed Project Artichoke is correct, is the correct in fact project name artichoke, which is just anyways, in 1953, Olsen's death was described as a suicide that had occurred during a severe psychotic episode. Yep. And where hold on. Yeah, okay. So in 19 no, no, no, no, sorry, I got myself confused here. So in 1994, Olsen's body was exhumed, and no, fucking all over the place. I need exactly how he died. I don't know why, like, why would I not include that? I had it here, so let me just you know what? The government probably hacked your computer and was like, this is a very influential podcast, yeah, and they cannot be talking about this very highly sensitive national security stuff. Super influential, hitting lots of people. Um okay, so in 1953, Olson was given LSD without his knowledge or consent as part of a CIA experiment and died after falling from a 13th story window a week later. In 1953, Olson's death was described as a suicide that had occurred during a severe psychotic episode. The CIA's own internal investigation concluded that the head of the of MKUltra, CIA chemist Sidney Gottelieb, had conducted the LSD experiment with Olson's prior knowledge, although neither Olson nor the other men taking part in the experiment were informed as to the exact nature of the drug until 20 minutes after its ingestion. Oh that's the worst way to take drugs. 100%. And that's from their own investigation. So it's just like, no, no, no, no. He had consent. We just didn't tell him what the hell we were giving him until after it was done. Yeah. The report further suggested that Sidney Godleib was due a reprimand as he had failed to take into account Olsen's already diagnosed suicidal tendency tendencies, which may have been exacerbated, exas exacerbated. Fuck off. Okay, but you know why it's throwing me. I I wouldn't have done a better job. It's because it's too close to expedited, which kind of also means similar. Kind of similar. Oh, okay. Well, anyways, LSD similar. LSD could have really, you know, sped things up. In 1994, Olson's body was exhumed and cranial injuries indicated that Olson had been knocked unconscious before he exited the window. Yep. Yep. This means the forensic evidence conflicted with the former official version of the events by the CEIA. And the medical examiner termed Olsen's death a homicide. And since 2001, the Olsen family disputes the official version of the events, obviously, and they maintain that Frank Olson was murdered because uh especially in the aftermath of his LSD experience, he had become a security risk who would potentially be divulging, you know, state secrets. So wow, that is a little bit those are kind of like scratch the surface of like some of the major players. Yes, yes, yes. Like that's kind of like some of the bones. Obviously, there's a lot more to it. But yeah. And like I think what's also just chilling is that obviously I think in like North America, well, I'm sure all over the world, but like for me, when I hear CIA, you have like a very specific kind of impression of that. And like I feel like when I was younger, I'd be like, oh, CIA, a CIA agent would be like so cool. Not this. And then also it's in response to, although I don't know if I whether it's in response to or like also just at the same time, hey, what if this worked? But in response to like other mind control experiments happening in different parts of the world. So like, oh, those guys over there are experimenting with truth serum, which I'm sure it wasn't like a walk in the park, lovely, just no, no, it wasn't a Kellogg's, you know, spa day at his no, where they're like the worst of it is that you'll have to get a yogurt enema. Yeah, exactly which by the way, Mingen ew. Mingin. Anyways, so very disturbing stuff uh that you wish was like a fictional plot line in a movie, but is in fact just wow and just makes you feel like you know these are definitely the kinds of things where you're just like, wow, I hope that like faith in humanity can still be a thing. Because like, my god, we really are capable of like horrible, horrible, horrible things. I think at like the community level, neighbor to neighbor, that's where you find it. I don't think you find it high up in the in the upper echelon of the 1% of power rich and wealthy. I don't think that's where you find it ever. I think it's all all yeah, because I don't think anybody who's working a nine to five is trying to, you know, it's so unsuspectedly and unwittingly practice mind control on mass amounts of human beings without their consent. True. I'm just trying to I'm just trying to be wrong. No, I'm just trying to climb my 19 floors and live my life over here. I don't think you are in your spare time being like, yeah, but like wouldn't it be cool if I could come up with truth serum or like you know, oh gosh, prey on the vulnerable so that we can experiment on human mass human uh control? Yes, honestly. Yeah. Great. Well, on that happy awesome. Oh god, I'm sorry. I promise my next fact won't be as so sad as that. All right. Well, see you next week. Bye.