From Cabernet to Cognitive Dissonance

Welcome to Tell Me Something You Don't Know, where we explore curiosities without credentials. We're your factually adjacent hosts, Maddie and Sarah. Every week we exchange random topics with just enough research to keep things interesting and slightly accurate. So lower your bars and let's learn something you never knew you wanted to know. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:00

You can say something. Okay, I can barely hear you. Okay. You might need to turn my volume up.

SPEAKER_01 0:09

Yeah, you probably have to turn your volume up. All right then. There we have it. Great. Well, so as you know, it's recording us now. We can turn off. Well, let's keep the uh Yeah, no, keep the picture on for a few minutes.

unknown 0:23

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 0:23

We'll keep the video on for a moment. We can turn it off later. Um, if you say anything that you're like, I don't love that I said that, I can delete it. But also if it's funny, I'll probably keep it in.

SPEAKER_03 0:35

Okay. Oh, now at first I have to Okay, I don't love that this is in here. Um, I just need to be able to see where my notes are.

SPEAKER_01 0:47

Your notes are? That's okay. You find them. I'm gonna, while you're finding them, I'm gonna do a little intro. Welcome back to Tell Me Something You Don't Know. My co-host is in Boston, too busy to join me for a call today. So for this week's episode, we have a special guest.

SPEAKER_00 1:08

Welcome to Tell Me Something You Don't Know, where we explore curiosities without credentials.

SPEAKER_01 1:13

We're your factually adjacent hosts, Maddie and Sarah.

SPEAKER_00 1:17

Every week we exchange random topics with just enough research to keep things interesting and slightly accurate.

SPEAKER_01 1:24

So lower your bars and let's learn something you never knew you wanted to know. Special guest, please introduce yourself.

SPEAKER_03 1:33

Hello. My name is Michelle Shears, and I am the maker of these two. You're welcome. You're welcome.

SPEAKER_01 1:45

I was wondering how you were gonna say it. That's perfect. So yeah, we Sarah and I plan to have some special guests here and there. She rudely decided to go to Boston for a work trip. I think the first and obvious choice was always gonna be our mother. So here she is. She's brought her fun fact. So it's gonna be great. How about do you want me to go first or do you want to go first? Oh, I think you should go first.

unknown 2:13

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 2:14

You want to put it off for as long as possible?

SPEAKER_03 2:17

Yeah, that's part of my ammo. So for sure. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 2:23

All right. Well, I knew that she was gonna be the special guest, so I decided to go with a topic that she actually does know quite a bit about, but I still don't think she'll know these facts. So today I'm gonna be talking about wine. Oh my we somelier. That's right. Everything that I know and love about wine, I probably got from my parents.

SPEAKER_03 2:52

So both interesting and disturbing.

SPEAKER_01 2:56

No, it's great. Big fan over here, but I didn't know, like, I don't know a lot of the history. Well, like vaguely, like some historical facts. I know it's been around forever. I know there's like a lot of religious elements to the history of wine as well. But I thought I would just share a few specific facts and we can all just learn a little bit about wine.

SPEAKER_03 3:17

I like it. I like it. Let's go. Let's let's I wish I had a wine.

SPEAKER_01 3:21

We should have. Oh well, next time. All right. Do you know where the earliest traces of wine were ever found? Or and what would you guess if you don't know?

SPEAKER_03 3:31

I feel like it must have been in Europe somewhere. And and of course, my thought would be like Italy. Rinny have some good memories of wine drinking in Italy.

SPEAKER_01 3:43

No, it's a very good guess. So I had to look up how to pronounce this word, but the earliest known traces of wine were found near Tbilisi, Georgia. Oh, 6,000 BCE. And the earliest evidence of grape and rice mixed-based fermented drink was found in ancient China, 7000 BC. And then the earliest winery is from 4100 BC. And it's been named I hope this is right, Arini One Winery in Armenia. Super old. The interesting thing is that, first of all, this was only really found in 2007, so not that long ago. The excavations of it are located in a three-chambered karstic cave along the Arpa River. And this excavation began in 2007 and concluded in 2010. And the cave's stable microclimate with minimal temperature fluctuations and low humidity preserved organic remains exceptionally well. So unlike people's basements say. Yes, correct. Yes, nature was able to just naturally preserve these things. Archaeologists unearthed a well-preserved winery in the cave's first gallery, including a 60 centimeter deep, which is like two feet, fermented vat, a one-meter-long clay basin wine press coated with malvadin, which is a red wine pigment, large storage jars, and organic remains such as grape seeds, pressed grapeskins, desiccated vines, prunes, and walnuts. The winery's proximity to burial sites, including pots containing human skulls. One of the skulls actually had some preserved brain tissue as well. So that's fascinating. So these findings suggest that it was used for like sacrificial rituals or funerary rituals. What a waste. Something else is the ancient Romans discovered that burning sulfur candles inside empty wine vessels kept them fresh and free from a vinegar smell due to the antioxidant effects of sulfur dioxide, which is still used as a wine preservative.

SPEAKER_03 6:00

Well, there you go. And which probably gives us headaches.

SPEAKER_01 6:05

Well, definitely one of the contributions, I'm sure. Speaking of headaches, a standard bottle, so like 750 milliliters, takes roughly 600 to 800 grapes to produce a single bottle. Okay, what? Okay, that is a fact I knew, and it's really upsetting to know. Holy smokes. So every time you and I like easily share a bottle, maybe even two, please take comfort in knowing. We've had about 2.5 pounds of grapes. It's a lot of sugar, as we know. Yeah. Something interesting. Studies suggest that women, particularly during the reproductive years, have a more acute sense of smell, giving them a natural edge in identifying delicate aromas in wine. Oh, so yeah. A couple more things. California is the fourth largest wine producer in the world, but ahead of them is France, Italy, and Spain. So, like in modern day, obviously, yes, when we think like Italy is probably one of the most popular geographical locations to make wine, like that's correct. France, Italy, and Spain, which I think makes sense. Portugal in now, so it's not in the top four.

SPEAKER_04 7:25

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_01 7:26

But maybe it's five. And then also I would think Chile. And then I I don't know the order, but those are the top four.

SPEAKER_03 7:36

Just thinking through your head, going up and down the aisles.

SPEAKER_01 7:39

Hey, New Zealand. That is quite literally what I was like Sauvignon Blanc. That's exactly what I was doing. I'm visualizing the liquor store. So that's great.

SPEAKER_03 7:50

Well, you'd have to, and let's be on. Oh, I know. Fun interjected little fact. Found White Haven Sauvignon Blanc in Winnipeg. Oh, did you?

SPEAKER_02 8:04

I do.

SPEAKER_01 8:05

That's a really good white wine that we love.

SPEAKER_03 8:08

Is interested. So I because you we don't have it in Nova Scotia. We don't have very good Sauvignon Blanc. We don't have good variety of choice here at all when it comes to wine. So we just drink what they give us. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:25

Or you make your own, which you guys do. Well, we do do make our own, yes, that's true. Okay, this is a super random fact, but it is connected to a wine, and I thought it was hilarious. So King Charles III, so current king, although at the time Prince Charles, he owns a classic 1970 Aston Martin DB6 Volante, uh, which is a super nice car.

SPEAKER_02 8:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:50

That was gifted to him by Queen Elizabeth for his 21st birthday.

SPEAKER_02 8:53

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 8:54

It's famously eco-conscious. And in 2008, he had the car converted to run on E85 bioethanol, which is uniquely brewed from surplus English white wine.

SPEAKER_03 9:10

Wow. What does that say? Okay, no good British white wine. We can use it for fueling cars.

SPEAKER_01 9:18

It's also more sustainable, though. I looked it up because I'm like, this just sounds like a bougie like flex. He was like, you know what? Only cool cars run on wine. But then I realized I looked it up and it actually is like it's better for the environment. So there you go.

SPEAKER_03 9:36

I mean, imagine, okay, one bottle is what did you say? 800 grapes?

SPEAKER_01 9:43

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 9:44

Imagine a tank of gas. How many grapes is that? I don't know if that's sustainable.

SPEAKER_01 9:50

Honestly, that would be it would be a lot. At least 80% of Italians in 1880 made their income from the flourishing wine business. That would have been pretty cool. 80%, that's a lot of the population. Red wine is helpful for heart health because it includes resveratrol, an antioxidant that is largely found in grape skin.

SPEAKER_03 10:14

Yeah. So we have the question would be is it better to just eat red grapes then or drink copious amounts of wine?

SPEAKER_01 10:25

I think it probably depends on who you ask. I'm sure if you're a wine drinker, uh the latter. Definitely the wine. According to two recent studies, the polyphenols, polyphenols, in chocolate and wine, dark chocolate specifically, improve blood flow and oxygenation to the brain, which enhances cognitive function.

SPEAKER_03 10:49

Smart, healthy. I mean, where's where's this poison they talk about?

SPEAKER_01 10:55

I know, I know. To me, uh what I'm hearing is that it's important to have wine. Okay, the world's most expensive bottle of wine is a Romani Conti 1945. I'm probably butchering that name, but that's Romani Conti.

SPEAKER_03 11:13

Romani, probably.

SPEAKER_01 11:14

Romani is probably correct. Rome, that sounds way more elegant. Romani Conti 1945 sold for an eye-watering $558,000 at an auction. Wow. Over half a million dollars.

SPEAKER_04 11:29

Do you think people drink it?

SPEAKER_01 11:30

I would have to assume so. Although maybe it's just sitting on a shelf somewhere.

SPEAKER_03 11:36

I don't know what I that's another rabbit hole, but I mean, I would love to know what's the difference between like aging wine for you know decades and decades, and then you age other wine and it's vinegar.

SPEAKER_01 11:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 11:54

Like what's that a combination of like temperature?

SPEAKER_01 11:59

Like, I don't know. I did come across a few things talking about that, and that there are actually some wines that aren't meant to be like aged, right? That yeah, like they're not, and then certain ones are, but then like there's very specific conditions in which it's needs to be stored. Yeah, so that's the most expensive bottle of wine to ever be sold. And then, Mom, what is your favorite kind of wine? Oh, Cabernet Sauvignon. Okay, yeah, I already knew the answer to that, so I went ahead and proactively looked this up. It too is my favorite red, and it is the most planted wine grape in the world. There's approximately 840,000 acres of that specific wine grape being grown. Another fun fact about Cabernet specifically is why does it taste so good with steak? Well, actually, I feel like I've learned something similar to this from you and dad, but anyways. That'll lead into my topic. Great. Oh god, are we gonna get psychoanalytic and like deep? You know it. You know it. Oh Jesus Christ. Maybe we should have ended with wine. Okay. Researchers studying the effects of certain foods on the tongue found that the tannins in Kab Sov act as quote unquote scrapers to fats and proteins that collect on your tongue from the food you eat. So because steak has higher levels of proteins and fats, um, this wine like cuts that really well.

SPEAKER_03 13:32

Oh, okay. Okay. I do like a full-bodied wine.

SPEAKER_01 13:37

It is really, I agree. It is really good. I also found out that you guys are always like, you want a wine to have good legs. So when you swirl it in your wine glass and it like has a slow drip, that means it has good legs. Good legs. That's gonna be I was gonna say that's when it has long legs. But yeah, I uh the reason though for that is that it generally has to do with the sugar content in the wine, which I guess makes sense. So probably more sugar means fuller bodied and longer legs. So was that your laptop or your phone?

SPEAKER_03 14:22

Laptop.

SPEAKER_01 14:23

Okay. Do you know do you know what that sound means?

SPEAKER_03 14:26

It meant something came into my to my um my email.

SPEAKER_01 14:33

Okay, good just checking. And also, while we're just off track for a moment, did you I'm just checking, did you plug your laptop in? I sure did. Okay, good just checking. I can see us being mid-conversation and you just disappearing. So like not to be rude, but again, into my topic next. Okay, well, actually, that's a great segue then, because it was just a short one today, folks. From my end, I wanted to share a little bit about wine and where it comes from, and that's it.

SPEAKER_03 15:08

I love that. I did not know those earliest times, so yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:13

So Georgia, Armenia, Armenia, and then also Iran. Those are the first locations. So over to you.

SPEAKER_03 15:23

Take it away. So, as I said, for the few points that you were making there, I'm going to be talking about memory and decision making. Oh. So the exercise is incorrect. How I did this. There's not a lot of fun facts or anything.

unknown 15:46

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 15:54

Okay. So I was like, um, are they coming becoming a big deal for other people too, or am I just an anomaly?

SPEAKER_01 16:04

A messy anomaly. So this is so wait, before you okay, so before we start, this is your so it's factual to you because you're experiencing it.

SPEAKER_03 16:14

Yes, well, and plus I did I did research, like I did look things up and stuff.

SPEAKER_01 16:19

But yeah, yeah, okay, okay, okay.

SPEAKER_03 16:21

I was like, as like, oh, the first time of memory happened in 1400 BC or anything like that.

SPEAKER_01 16:29

No, no, it doesn't have to it okay. Well, clearly you have not listened to all of our episodes. So I'm gonna go ahead and forgive you now for that. There's no way because not all of our there's not all of ours are like quick facts like I just did wine.

SPEAKER_03 16:46

Although Yes, they all have some factual things in them that people would be going, oh, I didn't know that timeline, or I didn't what?

SPEAKER_01 16:56

That group of people or that yeah, I guess I guess we do, I guess we do. And your yours is based on your own experience first, which I think is a different experience, but also research that yeah, no, no, that's yeah, yeah, that's good. I I like the format though that you're that this is something you've experienced, and then by extension, you've now researched it. So take it away.

SPEAKER_03 17:19

Yeah, okay. So the thing is is that I keep wondering how much of what we decide is really a choice in the moment, and how much of it is memory, memory like guiding us from the background, shall we say?

SPEAKER_01 17:40

Oh shit.

unknown 17:41

Oh shit.

SPEAKER_03 17:42

This is a big this is a big philosophical moment. I'm really I'm very curious. That question fascinates me because memory is not just about the past, because what it does is it helps build. Take that out. Okay, so what memory does is it builds the present and it strongly influences the future. Okay, and research has shown based on Frederick Bartlett's classic work of 1932, all the way back to that. So I guess that is a fact, really. Um and then into modern neuroscience with uh Nader Schafe and Ledoux, that never you're gonna have to take this out too. It's okay, it's okay. Just keep just find your okay, you're good, you're good.

SPEAKER_02 18:41

Right.

SPEAKER_03 18:42

So uh the researchers Frederick Bartlett and Nader Schaefe and Ledou, both uh like from 1932 up to 2000, and then Nader and Hart in 2009 showed that memory is reconstructive, not photographic.

SPEAKER_01 19:04

For everybody, yes.

SPEAKER_03 19:06

Oh, okay, there are there are people that do have like the photographic memory and they remember, they remember certain facts and whatever, right? There's there's that, but when people think of memory, they often imagine like your brain's a filing cabinet, right? Like so just like a little fella sitting at the desk that stores all our memories. Then we recall one and he just scribbles out a new version of one because what they've discovered is that as you recall your memories, they do not come up necessarily as accurate.

SPEAKER_01 19:44

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_03 19:45

It's more about the meaning of the memory than the actual memory, because every time you recall a memory up, the version of it changes. Oh wait, so it's proven, like it's like it's it's proven.

SPEAKER_01 20:00

Okay, this makes sense to me because the further back the memory that you're trying to recall, right? Yeah, like that it's gonna be hard to like remember exactly what happened. You so you're saying that, like, let's say I recall a memory like today, right? From like when I was five, right? And then in like a couple weeks, I have another reason to recall this memory or to bring it up. It's likely that I will say it differently.

SPEAKER_03 20:26

Yes, and you will actually believe it differently.

SPEAKER_01 20:30

What that makes me not trust my own mind.

SPEAKER_03 20:33

Yes, this is the whole point. So, what that is, that process is called reconcil recon my god, reconsolidation. Okay, so it just it just calls it up and adds new things, takes some things away, and and so if the memory can change every time we access it, how much can we trust it? So, what researchers discovered was that you can trust it for meaning, but not always for the perfect detail of it. Okay, so the science of that is the brain does something remarkable. The hippocampus helps organize and store new memories, and when we remember something, that memory can become editable again. Scientists call that reconciliation.

SPEAKER_01 21:25

Okay, yeah, interesting.

SPEAKER_03 21:28

So this is probably making you feel much Oh yes, oh every memory. I'm just sitting here recalling memories all day long. It's like, well, is that accurate? Is that accurate?

SPEAKER_01 21:40

But does this give you comfort then? Are you like, okay, everybody this is applicable to all people?

SPEAKER_03 21:46

It does, yes, it does give me some comfort, but then like for instance, things that you are so anchored in your beliefs about based on memory, are they true? Like, are you right? Absolutely not.

SPEAKER_01 22:02

And then it's like, okay, but I'd have to imagine that, like, depending on what you're remembering, like for what reason you're tapping into a memory, I would have to think that like the main elements of the memory are still intact. Like I you can't be well, embellishing isn't the right word, but you can't be changing it is though, kind of, right?

SPEAKER_03 22:26

But I think embellishing comes more from like, well, let's make the memory exciting, shall we?

SPEAKER_01 22:33

Well, right, but that's a conscious decision. So like I might do that to like add a little flair to something, but there's a difference between a little embellishment versus like a full-blown lie. So I would have to think that a memory, you're if if I if I for the purpose of a conversation need to tap into a memory very specific to the situation which prompted me to tap into that memory, I'd I'd like to think that the the main thing that draws me to that memory is accurate. So it's like Right. You know, I would like to think so.

SPEAKER_03 23:04

Maybe the fine details are like not necessarily what those researchers discovered is yes, the meaning is there, but the details of it are what gets edited over.

SPEAKER_01 23:20

Okay. Okay, okay, okay. All right. I feel like that does make sense. I can kind of make peace with that because I do think like it makes sense. I think we but then you know what's weird is like I'm imagining that little file cabinet that you're that you described for this. And it's you know, when you have a memory, you know, when you something pops into your mind and you're like, where did that come from? Or you're like, How did I even retrieve that memory? Like for the first time, maybe you're remembering something and you're like, how far back was that stored?

SPEAKER_03 23:54

And how did I how did I have precisely and where did that come from? Yeah, just you would.

SPEAKER_01 24:02

Oh gosh, okay, continue.

SPEAKER_03 24:04

Okay, so then let's talk about decisions because this is another thing that I well, I I guess I want to say it's getting worse as I get older. But I actually think I've always been a person that has struggled making decisions that runs into procrastination and all the things, right? So this is what I found. We all believe we are the ones making decisions, but then I discovered why are some decisions so easy for some people and completely overwhelming for others. And do you find that? Like some people just snap out, yeah, like, oh yeah, no, no, we're gonna go here tonight. And other people are like, oh god, I don't know. I I'm the I'm the latter, of course, and I would love to be, you know, the first.

SPEAKER_01 25:02

Well, I I find big the bigger the decision, the easier it is for me. And then the smaller the decision, the harder it is. So, like a restaurant or what movie to watch, I really struggle with making that choice. But like, where am I gonna live next? Or like, I'm gonna I want to take a class on something, what's it gonna be? Like, I'm pretty quick to make those choices. You are actually Maddie, and but the little ones are still so hard for me, and those can be extra frustrating. Like, I'm sure friends of mine are like, could you make a freaking decision ever? I'm like, please somebody take those decisions away from me.

SPEAKER_03 25:34

I know, I know, and I mean there's there's so many rabbit holes that I ended up going down that it was man, this is going bad. No, it's not, it's going so well. Well, because my notes are all over the place.

SPEAKER_01 25:54

Oh my gosh, this is also how I know that you haven't listened to all of Sarah and I's we say on almost every single episode. We're like I know, you guys do, you do, and you don't have to you don't have to talk in one like smooth like if you need to take a minute to clearly that's not happening.

SPEAKER_03 26:16

Okay, so you're doing great. Thanks, thanks, Maddie. Okay, so we did already cover this example. One person can pick a restaurant in 10 seconds, another spirals for 20 minutes over a menu. Because science suggests something strange around this phenomenon. Your brain is constantly weighing past experiences, emotions, risks, rewards, predictions of the future, which means every decision is really just your entire life history trying to guess what happens next. So the unsettling science of that, some neuroscience research suggests that brain activity related to a decision can appear before we are consciously aware we've decided. Oh like that's kind of freaky.

SPEAKER_01 27:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 27:08

Because you think you're like in perfect control of making a decision. But it's like your brain is already busy making it for you before you've actually consciously that you're consciously aware that you've done it.

SPEAKER_01 27:21

Okay, but but see, that's both scary and comforting somehow.

SPEAKER_03 27:25

It's both scary because it's like someone because someone else is in control. It's like, oh, just a minute, my brain's got it. Don't you worry. I'm just gonna catch up in a few minutes.

SPEAKER_01 27:41

Yeah, that part's a little concerning for sure. But like it is comforting to know if you're if you struggle with making a choice, it is a little comforting to know it's still your mind, it's not somebody else's who's is contributing to the decision before you're even consciously aware. And likely that would have to be based on like your mind and your brain and your memories and your you know, your intuition ultimately. It's not like it's somebody else that's doing it, it's still you, it's just you're not necessarily consciously aware of it.

SPEAKER_03 28:10

Right, right.

SPEAKER_01 28:11

But so still very crazy, like that is crazy to me.

SPEAKER_03 28:16

Yeah, um, so then how do the two meet, you know, or actually collide? Let me go back into my notes. You're really cute. Yeah, yeah. It's funny. Okay, so how much of a decision is logic and how much is memory? I think memory is in the room every time we make a choice. If something hurt us before, right, memory will remember that. If something worked out beautifully, memory remembers that too. So if we made a mistake once, our brain often files that away and uses it the next time a similar similar situation appears. So decision making is never just about the moment, it is often about the past reaching into the present. The prefrontal cortex plays a big role here. That's the part of the brain involving planning, weighing options, self-control, and thinking ahead. And Miller and Cohen wrote a paper describing the prefrontal prefrontal cortex as central to goal, directed behavior, and cognitive control. But when stress enters the picture, things can change fast. Research by Amy Arnstein shows that stress can rapidly impair the prefrontal cortex function, which makes it harder to think clearly, regulate impulses, and weigh options carefully. That's why some people will say, I don't even know why I did that. Sometimes the answer is simple. They were tired, rushed, afraid, overwhelmed, or emotionally flooded. So then you have to ask, when I make a decision, am I responding to what is happening now? Or am I responding to what my memory says might happen again?

SPEAKER_01 30:07

My guess would be, but obviously you're gonna tell me they're it's the same, they're both.

SPEAKER_03 30:12

It is.

SPEAKER_01 30:12

It is both.

SPEAKER_03 30:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:14

Okay. Yep.

SPEAKER_03 30:16

And so then you have to, which is why probably I get very laden with decision making because it's like, okay, where did this come from? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Is this something, you know? I I go through the whole. Did this happen before? I actually, this is how I think in my head, real fast, but it's like, uh, yeah, I did that before. That didn't, that didn't go well. New decision. I can't, I can't repeat that sort of thing. You know what I mean? Which goes into like the fear and all the right things.

SPEAKER_01 30:48

Well, but then so then I would think that maybe you might be somebody who has a good memory. Because this is what it makes me think, which is funny for our family to say, because my our mom, my mom, this special guest right here, she is so intelligent. Well, see, you're constantly talking about how you're like, my memory's going, my memory's going. But if you're constantly in decision making, taking the time to think about you're like you're stopping yourself from making a choice because your brain is like, let me tap into like the past, then it's thinking that there's something there to pull from. I feel like maybe I don't have a good memory because I don't know that I like I don't take any time at all. Like, or it could be it could, I'm sure it's a combination of things. I feel like I've had a fairly like privileged, no, I've had a very privileged and then fairly like easygoing life. So maybe part of it too is that if you've had some challenging experiences in your life, or like right, the more challenging experiences you've had, maybe you are a little bit more conscious.

SPEAKER_03 31:55

Right.

SPEAKER_01 31:56

When you're yeah, like maybe I'm sure it's a combination of things.

SPEAKER_03 31:59

I think absolutely, which is essentially what this is saying, right? So it goes on to say memory can be incredibly useful, it helps us avoid danger, helps us learn, recognize patterns, but memory can also mislead us. One painful experience can turn into a broad rule, and that's what I was saying about it's like this thing happened to me, therefore, this is always this way, and it can never be changed. And anybody that challenges that, nope, absolutely not, you're wrong, whatever, right? So one rejection can become this always happens. So guilty of this. One mistake can become, I'm just not good at this. Also very guilty of this. Oh my goodness, yeah. Betrayal can become I can't trust anyone. And that is where memory becomes tricky because a memory can contain truth, but not the whole truth. It may describe a moment, but not a future. It may capture pain, but not necessarily possibility. Emotion also plays a major role here. We tend to remember emotional events more strongly because the brain marks them as important. That idea has been explored extensively by James McGaugh in research on emotional memory and the amygdala. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. And on how emotion shapes what gets remembered and how it is remembered. But vivid does not always mean accurate, which that that really sort of stopped me for a few minutes. And I was like, what? Like, oh, so if it's like how you describe as something being a very vivid memory, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:47

I would think, yeah, I would totally think the opposite. I'd be like, this is the most accurate memory I have, probably.

SPEAKER_03 33:52

That's a hundred percent how I viewed it. So it's one of the most fascinating paradoxes about memory. We can remember something very clearly and still not remember it exactly as it happened. And then Elizabeth Loftus did some research on that and said that memory can be altered by misleading information after the event. A major reason her work remains so important in psychology. So then another question you could ask yourself is Am I using this memory as evidence or am I using it as a warning? Those are not always the same thing. And the funny part is memory is the only thing that can confidently say I remember it perfectly, while being completely wrong and somehow still sounding offended if you question it. That was actually a little quote. And I thought that was so funny and appropriate. Okay, let's add in the role of aging, because that's funny.

SPEAKER_04 34:51

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 34:52

Well, that's for everyone. Yeah, well, it gets pretty interesting here. As we get older, some things do change. Recall can take longer, word finding can slow down. Yes. Some kinds of memory may not feel as sharp, uh-huh. But that's not the whole story. Aging often brings something else, perspective. And perspective is powerful. Research on aging and decision making suggests that older adults may rely more on accumulated experience and in some situations make especially strong decisions when choices are tied to meaningful life knowledge. Manes Larkin and Knutsen in 2015 explored how effective and motivational circuits change with age and how those changes influence decision making. There's also a useful work by Bruin De Brun, Parker, and Fischjoff on decision-making competence in older adults, showing that older adults are not simply worse at decisions, they can be quite strong in many real-world decision contexts, which made me feel real good. So while speed may change, wisdom can deepen.

SPEAKER_01 36:07

Nice.

SPEAKER_03 36:08

Yeah, so maybe younger brains are quicker to leap, while older brains are better at asking, wait a minute, what's really important there? And and I I think that's true.

SPEAKER_01 36:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 36:21

It's interesting how a younger brain might leap into their decision making and how older brains leap into it, right? No, definitely. So, yes, aging is not just simply loss, it's also accumulation of experience, context, and understanding. That's nice. Context matters when you're making decisions.

SPEAKER_01 36:43

Yeah, that is a nice way of looking at it, though. It is nice to not feel as though it's just downhill from here.

SPEAKER_03 36:55

It's like, oh yes, all that experience and perspective, it matters, you know? Yes. So here's some important questions for everybody to think about for your audience. When I make a decision, am I responding to the present or to an old fear? What memory am I using as evidence? Am I choosing from fear or from wisdom? Same question. Am I remembering the event or only the feeling? Am I giving one old experience too much power over my current life? Yeah, yeah, that's that was a big one for me, also. Not easy questions, and which I found interesting, because sometimes what we call intuition is actually memory. And sometimes what we call caution is actually old hurt. So when we caution ourselves, it may not be like, oh, you know, any reason other than an old hurt, you've triggered an old hurt. Right. Yeah. So it doesn't mean your memory memory is bad, it just means it's influential and it shapes how we interpret the world. There's also a whole bunch of other things, but I'm gonna end with a little QA. Oh, look at you.

SPEAKER_01 38:14

Just a natural for you.

SPEAKER_03 38:17

Oh when Sarah listens, then she can just make her little notes as well.

SPEAKER_01 38:23

Oh, perfect. Well, hers won't be on the air. So well, no, it won't last.

SPEAKER_03 38:28

But okay, so this question when I was reading through different like researching the different people or whatever, this question came up a few times. Do we miss people because of who they were or because of the memories our brain created around them?

SPEAKER_01 38:46

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_03 38:47

So, like for me, I was like, honestly, like I mean, uh for my grandmother, for one, for both my grandmothers really disliked one and adored the other. But is that because I knew who they were? That I remember who they were, or just my memories of them, right? With one, my memories with one was awful, the other was great. So but what but what do I know of them?

SPEAKER_01 39:21

Right, right. Right? I so that's a super deep question. We definitely should have had wine for this. No, no, it's uh it's good. I I would think that it's our memory of them because uh maybe it depends, maybe it depends. I how well do you know a person, I guess, is the question.

SPEAKER_03 39:42

Even your own mother, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:43

But I well, so okay, the question would be different for me then. Like, if if it was you, then I think it'd be for the person you are, because I feel like I know you very well. Memory, memories I have with you would, of course, like influence that as well. But it's like I if I take myself out of it, if I remove my memories from it and I think of you as like a person in the world, which is strange for children and parents to do. I think sometimes we forget that you like had a whole existence before we before we came into the picture, but you're still not a completely different person from before you having kids. So like I might not have a connection with memories beyond you being my mother and like your life before that, but but you're still a product of all of those things that happened. So I would have to think that like my memories with you are shaped by the kind of person that you are. So I would think that in that instance, yeah, like maybe it's a bit of both. But similar to what you're saying about your grandparents, like I don't even really think I can say, sadly, I don't know if I have either of those with your mom. I don't even really remember feelings being around Nana because I was so young when she passed. And then my other grandmother, who I'm who I was was very close with, I think feelings around her because I don't know that I did know her very well, like to just because of the nature of like it's also a generational, right?

SPEAKER_03 41:17

Yeah, very privately. Yes, exactly. Yeah, yeah. So I think I know them, and so basically you just have your memories that were created with them, yeah. Around them, right?

SPEAKER_01 41:30

Yeah, so I think it's different with each probably person or experience or whatever you're applying the question to.

SPEAKER_03 41:38

Just like you said, you would know me better than you would know my mom or or whatever, as as time goes on. Okay, two more.

SPEAKER_01 41:47

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 41:48

Um, what is a memory from your childhood that you think shaped you, but I might not realize had that much impact?

SPEAKER_01 42:01

These are so deep. You can do it. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_03 42:06

Um we can also just leave it as questions that well, well, they should be questions for the audience.

SPEAKER_01 42:18

I I think that's a question that I need to maybe marinate with for a moment, but off the top of my head, and I don't really know that you would not know that this shaped me, but probably just like moving around, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:30

Moving it, moving around. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:32

Like moving around, probably, but I don't, I think you would have probably been aware of that.

SPEAKER_03 42:36

And also yeah, because it just remember that. How do you remember that? How do you remember moving around?

SPEAKER_01 42:43

Um, I just feel like things that are cozy about life that like ultimately build nostalgia, I felt like they were cut short like throughout my life. And now as an adult, I can appreciate it because I feel like I have such a spectrum of nostalgic. I think nostalgia is one of the best things that people can experience in life, and I think everybody has nostalgia. I feel like mine feels kind of vast and diversified because there's so many of them. There's so many the smells of various homes or like sweets from like candy from England versus candy from Canada. Like, yeah, I think that I think now I can appreciate what that amount of travel did for me. But at the time, I remember being like devastated leaving Edmonton. I remember being devastated leaving Nova Scotia, like my life was over. But I again like yeah, they couldn't have been that awful because my they couldn't, they couldn't have been that awful because based on what you've talked about in this conversation, that would have like manifested as like a as like a warning for me. And I still love to try. Travel until I f came to Toronto, I preferred to be moving back and forth or to and from different places. Like it certainly didn't become like a trigger or a warning for me. It was, if anything, I was like, whatever sad memories I have from moving constantly, they clearly didn't outweigh like the positive memories I had.

SPEAKER_03 44:19

So that's good. And then last one.

SPEAKER_01 44:24

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 44:24

Yes. My memory fades significantly. And I don't remember all the things we did together. What is one thing you would want me to know about the life we shared?

SPEAKER_01 44:37

Oh god, Mom, these are so deep. Why? Are you gonna cry?

SPEAKER_03 44:43

No, I won't cry.

SPEAKER_01 44:45

It's okay if you do.

SPEAKER_03 44:47

I'll cry when we get off air.

unknown 44:49

Oh god.

SPEAKER_03 44:51

I'll save the audience. Oh my god. Well, I don't know important questions because again, like people's memories do okay.

SPEAKER_01 45:02

Yes. Let's so to the to the audience. Obviously, we're getting personal here, but these questions are for you to reflect on as well.

SPEAKER_02 45:10

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 45:12

Because all of a sudden it's feeling a little bit like okay. It's okay. No, no, no. I like it. I like it. I'm not no, it's no, I like it. I just don't want no no.

SPEAKER_03 45:22

We're all gonna get we're all it'll just go right back because this was my one kick at the can. So I'm bringing some hard questions.

SPEAKER_01 45:32

You're right, you're right. If I'm gonna have my mom on the podcast, there's gonna be some of this. It's very challenging for me to pin one single thing. Like, I I really don't know how to pick one thing. Well, I think probably the one thing, like as a general theme, would just be like long chats, would be yeah, would be it, I think. Because there's countless memories of like taking trips together. I could say when we went to PEI together, I could say different parts of like just adventures we've had, like as a family and stuff. But I think probably what I think of the most when I think of like our relationship, it would be yeah, it would just be like long chats about anything and everything.

SPEAKER_03 46:18

So yeah, I think I would share that same same thing. And I will always remember those long chats, so thank you.

SPEAKER_01 46:26

Well, maybe a version of them, evidently.

SPEAKER_03 46:30

I like them because I I feel like we do share uh depth of not just oh how is your day today? Oh yeah, it's certainly not we do like surface levels of things, and so does Sarah. And then Sarah diff differently, but Sarah also likes to do deep dives. So I mean, I I I that is one thing I love about us. Yeah. Okay, two-hour podcast.

SPEAKER_01 47:04

Actually, the editing is gonna be two weeks. No, no, this this is actually pretty good timing, honestly. Sarah and I usually go for another like five minutes, so this works out.

SPEAKER_03 47:15

Um but yes, I uh just wait. And then the next time I'm on the podcast, wink wink, I I will I will have a I will have facts and a subject not emotionally based.

SPEAKER_01 47:30

No, don't say that. No, no, don't say that. You should bring whatever you want. And honestly, the format that you brought. Yeah, yeah. And the format you brought was really good. Like, I that's great. You something that connects with you.

SPEAKER_03 47:44

Something that's happening for me right now. Memories of decisions.

SPEAKER_01 47:48

Um, yeah, so fair. And hopefully, in my request for you to be on the podcast and research a topic, you've learned a few things about this.

SPEAKER_02 47:58

I think you can good.

SPEAKER_01 48:02

That's the point. We're trying to teach people and ourselves a couple things.

SPEAKER_02 48:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:06

I love that I brought service level winemaking and you brought philosophical, deep emotional. Yeah, it's true.

SPEAKER_03 48:15

Go together.

SPEAKER_01 48:17

That's actually very true. These this could not be a more accurate combo in representing our family. Amazing. Well, thank you, mom, for being on the podcast. Thanks. It was excited.

SPEAKER_03 48:31

I wish Sarah was here also to join us. Yes. Well, we are a little bit of fun away at the moment.

SPEAKER_01 48:37

So yes, definitely. She's on a work trip. I was gonna say well deserved, but it's not vacation. But I do know that she enjoys these kinds of experiences because it's fun. It is fun to travel for work and like have a little adult moment without your kids. So but we will have you back. Dad will be a guest at some point. Um, maybe the four of us would be crazy, maybe a little too chaotic. But that could be fun. That would be hilarious. Yeah. All right. Well, thanks everybody for listening. Bye. Bye.