Trickery Is Afoot: Birthing Rabbits and Brownie Wise

Welcome to Tell Me Something You Don't Know, where we explore curiosities without credentials. We're your factually adjacent hosts, Maddie and Sarah. Every week we exchange random topics with just enough research to keep things interesting and slightly accurate. So lower your bars and let's learn something you never knew you wanted to know. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Also, I'm worried that I'm echoing. Bop bop bop bop to the top. Test test your inhibition. Inhibition. I don't know the song. Kate, I think it's fine. Alright. I like your glasses. Oh, thanks. Welcome to Tell Me Something You Don't Know, where we explore curiosities without credentials. We're your factually adjacent hosts, Maddie. And Sarah. Every week we exchange random topics. With just enough research to keep things interesting and slightly accurate. So lower your bars and let's learn something you never knew you wanted to know. There's a new place for glasses called Kits. I've been contemplating purchasing from there. I'm exclusively purchased from iBuy Direct. I really like kits because I've bought from Zenny, I buy Direct, clearly. I like kits so far the best because also let me know if you can hear that. There's a little bit of construction happening in my building. The way the glasses fit are so good. Like which I really enjoy. Like I've really struggled with trying to figure out what kind of glasses I need because I hate when they like slide. And I'm like, nope, you just needed, I guess, a certain kind of ones that weren't five dollars. Yeah. Yeah. They're still pretty cheap and affordable, but they're yeah, and there's not as many options as I buy direct, but I think that'll change. I think they just started with a smaller inventory, but there's still lots of options. I got these ones, and then I got other ones that are just straight up clear, and I love them both. So yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I need to, you know, what I've discovered is that my head is lopsided. Like my ears are like one is lower than the other. And I don't know if this has happened over time. Like one is going up and one is going down. I'm sure that's not a thing that is real. But my glasses, like if right now I have headphones on, so you can't really tell. But like if I wear certain glasses, they're like this. And I'm just like, oh, that sucks. Like, I've never noticed that before. Are you sure? Maybe it's just the maybe it's also I do purchase from more frugal sites. So maybe it's the joints, but I'm like convinced that it's my ears. It's your ears. Well, I don't know how to test that theory, except for wear glasses that look lopsided and be like, wow, that's how do you how do you how do you even fix that? You can't get like a I don't even think there's like a surgery that I could be like, oh, I would like to be able to wear glasses and not have them be lopsided. I mean just move an ear. I'm sure in this day and age, though, there's something you can do. Maybe it's like you gotta add a little something or like put just a pull out. I don't think I don't think anyone wants to add a little something to their ear. Just a little extra padding in the top. No, I bet you look like it's the same thing, probably as like a facelift, except on the side of your head. So like whatever one's low, you just make an incision and pull it up because I know that's how they easy peasy. Probably could also adjust the glasses, maybe. Like I've tried to even bend them to be like, well, if this ear is lower, and then I like bend the thing. So maybe I also think that this is happening because one day I slightly thought it, and now I've just twisted all of my glasses out of shape. It does sound like maybe you're applying an amateur solution to an amateur problem. But which is this podcast? I'm going first. Okay. I'm like, I was mediocrely excited, and then the more I kind of like dove in, I was like, all right, okay. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that happens with me too. I'm like, I feel like I'm really half in on any topic because I well, there's been a couple where I'm like immediately stoked, but it gets harder, obviously. We have not uncovered all the facts of the universe, but I mean it does get a little trickier when you're like the apparent ones are gonna be on the first like 20 pages of Google, and I'm past that point. So we've we've already skimmed the surface at episode what are we on, like 14. No, I think we're on, I think this is episode like 16 or 17, which is really, really impressive. I for truly for us. I mean it is. I was just gonna say we haven't been consistent with one single thing in our entire life. So no, and this is the thing that is seeming to keep us going, and it's just listening to our own voices, which is hilarious. Um, but I also was just going to acknowledge that we tricked everyone this past Tuesday. I know. Well, we tricked everyone except for mom because she messaged me being like, uh, I think you posted incorrectly. I tried to listen to the new episode, but it's just going back to the last episode. Yeah. Like, oh. That either indicates that we only tricked mom, or mom is our only listener. Yeah. We pulled a little switch. I think honestly, we need to let Mary Shelley breathe a little bit. It was like such an impactful episode that we needed time to decompress and let the people who are running the simulation rewire things because clearly we figured them out. Also, we just got super busy, and that is more so the reason and couldn't get our lives together enough to record. So now we're here and we're gonna try and record multiple times so that that doesn't happen again. Yeah, big, yeah, we really need to do that. It's gonna be quite busy for both of us for the next like two to three months. So today I'm going to introduce you to a woman named uh uh yep, okay, Mary Toft. Okay, I thought you were gonna be like Mary Shelley, and I was like, uh-oh, we need to go to the hospital. You are unwell. Oh god. Okay, Mary Toft. Okay, okay. Yeah. So Mary Toft lived from 1703 to 1763. So 18th century, obviously. This is very long ago. I've just realized. Yeah, yeah, it is very long ago. So I'm gonna paint a little bit of a picture here for you. Love it. So she was a 25-year-old, I hate the way this sounds, illiterate servant. Um real rude right out the gate. Yeah. Married to Joshua Toft, a journeyman clothier.

SPEAKER_00 6:39

Oh.

SPEAKER_01 6:40

And according to reports, despite having had a miscarriage just a month earlier, in August 1726, Mary had still appeared to be pregnant. What? On September 27th, she went into labor. Wait, I need I there were so many numbers. It the way that you're speaking makes me feel like it's tight together, but I need to revisit. So wait. So she had a miscarriage on what day in July. July, yeah, 1726. But she seemed pregnant. Still, and then the 27th, so not so you know, two months later, she went into labor. Okay. Trickery is a foot. It sure is. She went into labor and was attended initially by her neighbor Mary Gill, and then her mother-in-law Ann Toft. She gave birth to something resembling no liverless cat. I have so many questions. And I I my brain can't catch up with what's happening. Okay, let me die. How did they know? I'm just like, how did they know it was liverless? Yeah. How did like how? I have so many questions. Good questions. Let me let me bridge a little bit here before we before we you know dissect this. Literally. Yeah. So this is ultimately the story of a woman who allegedly gave birth to several rabbits.

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Oh my god.

SPEAKER_01 8:24

What is happening in England? Okay. And with that, let's unravel. Just like how heavy of an emphasis is allegedly. I need to understand what the facts what the facts are. I think it's better that we keep you in the dark around that for as long as possible. Um, I love this adventure. This is exactly how I want to be told this story. Yes. Okay, so the family decided, obviously, with a little bit of concern, uh, to call on the help of a Guildford obstetrician, John Howard. Um obstetri, isn't that a no, that's an optometrist. You know what? Honestly, I may I make that mistake so often with just doctor names. I'm like the doctor for eyes, you know, or like the doctor Yeah, let's just we don't need to be fancy. Yeah, yeah. Obstetrics is like pregnancy and babies or no. That's what is that's not PD. Oh no, no, no. Yeah, that's pediatrics and gynecology. What is a obstetrician? Let's look it up. A physician who specializes in pregnancy, childbirth, and the postpartum period. Okay, well, then I'm not okay. Well, so pediatrics is probably technically like maybe for the baby. Yeah, like for the kid. For like the kid. This sounds like gotcha. So we got one of those. Now it's very obviously it's very important to remember that this is 1726. Right. So our understanding of that kind of care uh today would be would be different for sure. Wildly. They probably were like, all right, out into the fields to or like off you go to the floor to wash them. Like they would be, they would have zero sin. I mean, we're like still making progress in that area, let alone forever ago. Okay, so yeah, so this guy, John Howard, comes, he's like visiting with her the next day, was presented with more animal parts, no, which Antoft said she had taken from Mary during the night. So this is her mother-in-law's like, here's some more animal parts that she is uh birthing. Oh my okay. The following day, Howard returned and helped deliver yet more animal parts. No, so like a doctor is involved now, like is actually pulling out. Okay, it's not just like a crazy family. It's like, hey, we're bored, let's pretend that you're okay. Like doctor involved over the next month. Howard recorded that she began producing a rabbit's head, the legs of a cat, and in a single day, nine dead baby rabbits. What is going on? That's sense. Okay, let me first be honest. I read a lot about I read I pieced this together in a very weird way, and so some of this is coming out of my mouth for the first time, and I'm also like, what am I talking about? So here's that's exactly the pocket that we sit in. Correct. At this point, Howard's like, uh I'm not sure, I don't know. So he sends letters to some of England's greatest doctors at the time and scientists, and including the king's secretary, informing them of this miraculous these miraculous births. Is it is the is miraculous the word? Okay. Got it. Yep. So the king at the time is King George I, and he is uh pretty curious. So he willingly dispatches they've got like wars and like artillery units and like all like famine and stuff, and they're like, sorry, read that letter again. Yeah, everything on pause, please. So he dispatches two men to investigate to see what they you know what's going on. Do these men have qualifications, or he's just like Okay, okay. So so one is Nathaniel Saint Andre. He's a Swiss surgeon anatomist to the king. Yes, and then Samuel Mul Molinu Molyneux, who is secretary to the Prince of Wales. Not really sure where his medical uh expertise comes in handy, but he's important. So got it. At this point, also news has spread. And Mary has become like a local celebrity. I'm surprised they weren't like which I was right. So news has spread, and the because she's become like, you know, just a celebrity at this point, they've moved her to a remember, she's like illiterate, and it's not she doesn't have a oh wait, I was gonna say she's a servant, so like lower on the sociological yes, not making a lot of money. So she's been moved now to a different area near Guildford so that she can be monitored more closely by John Howard. So she's uh in a this is a bougier area, I'm assuming. Okay. Also, like interesting. I'm just like picturing a celebrity of this specific. I guess it's just knowing that that's happening is enough for people to just be enthralled. Yeah, like I I guess so. Again, I'm trying the most interesting thing about when when we're reading about the historical facts that we like talk about, it's really interesting to think about how different life would have been back then to now. It's like I guess you would believe a lot, you would be very gullible and naive. Sure. You would just be like, Yeah, I guess so. Like, what yeah, like okay, seems like if a doctor says, then although we're still kind of like that. Yeah, like we always say this. In another 50 years, I'm sure what we're doing now is like the stakes just get higher and more different. Yeah. So yes, on November 15th, so she's been moved. On November 15th, uh, these two doctors sent from the king arrive at Howard's home, the original doctor, and were immediately greeted with the news that Mary was in labor with her 15th rabbit. No, no. Toft gave birth to several more dead rabbits in their presence. The doctors conducted examinations on the lungs and other internal organs of these rabbits. I don't think the lungs are the problems, dude. I don't think the lungs are the problems. Oh, of the rabbits, okay, rabbits, but it's like, wouldn't you be a little more concerned with her? It might be yeah, the okay. It's a choice. It's a decision, yeah. The results of which showed that they probably did not develop inside Mary's womb. Okay, well, I guess that's why you I guess so. I'm like, I'm like, okay, again, I get we don't have our x-rays, we don't have ultrasounds, we don't have those things. So I don't know how much you can like just without killing her, be like, I I'm going up in like I don't know. Yeah, I guess you can't. I'm very, very concerned about how they are getting in there. Yeah. So Saint Andre is the one doctor who seems like consistently convinced that her case was genuine. He believes that these were indeed supernatural births and took some of the rabbit specimens back to London to show the king and the prince of Wales, which once again it's like, is that the move to make? Like, why is we're just scratching the curiosity itch of these important people? Like, what about this lady that is birthing rabbits? Maybe let's spend some time figuring that out. Anyway, yeah. Also, like, what a weird thing to bring back. I mean, I guess again, if there's no photos, you're kind of like, yeah, I'm gonna need to see. Like, when you're saying a rabbit, like, do you mean a rabbit? And they're like, Yeah, dude, like I'll bring it, I'll bring the rabbit and I'll show you exactly what we mean. It seems insane. Okay, wait. So the saint, the the guy that brings the rabbits is the secretary, not the actual doctor. He's actually not the secretary, he is the Swiss surgeon. Okay, so he is. He is, yeah. The first doctor who is a doctor also is Howard. Was like the town doctor. Yeah, yeah, that's the first thing. For sure, has not seen this before. And then the king sends his secretary and this other guy who's uh you would think an anatomist, although again, there's probably an element of like, all right, we're an anatomist is mostly just dealing with like the regular old body parts and internal organs. So I'm sure part of him is also like, no, no, this is real. Like, this is gonna be, I'm gonna write a paper about this and I'm gonna become famous. Yes. So this is how that's a very I'm glad you said that. Okay, so again, for us, we're like, obviously, this isn't true, but it's like for them, they've got a I mean, Madison, I'm not kidding. I'm like, is it? I I I don't know. Like based on what we know. Yes, I'm like, this is impossible for them. I guess they're like, well, I guess like although you know what? I kind of think that's an important part of science. Like, not to go barreling down, but like a rabbit hole very nice. Ugh, had to be done. But I think it is important to like be open to the fantastical and like the unbelievable so that you can actually because you know, I think that when our science is like constrained and we're so committed to what we currently know, it's limiting. Like you then aren't able to like explore. However, that being said, a rabbit coming out of a lady does feel like there should be a couple more checks and balances. Yes. Yes, agreed. Okay. Um, so yes, as the news spreads, more doctors get involved. More people are like, what are you guys doing over there? Like, let's figure this out. One doctor, Syriakis Allers, he was especially not convinced and was pretty determined to sort out like how we've even waited this long. So on examination of the rabbit parts, he had taken back to London. Again, doesn't feel like where we should be starting, but that's fine. He found that the dung pellets in the rectum of one of the rabbits contained corn, hay, and straw, which proved that it could not have been inside. How duck in there, guys? Yeah. So interesting, doesn't seem like where I'd start, but now it's kind of interesting how they're like making these, they're sorting this out. So right. They're like a fetus of any kind, animal or human is not going to have outside things. Yes, yeah, like that here we go. So the and to your point, this isn't mentioned here, but like to your point about witchcraft, people did at this time, that was definitely something that was possible. So if that was possible to the point where people were being like uh killed at the stakes because they truly believed in witchcraft. I thought she'd be first in line. Yeah, yeah. But if they believe in witchcraft, then maybe they are like, you know, we have to conclude one way or another that this is not, in fact, possible. Right. Also, like you are presented with a medical problem. You do need to like either be like, actually, the problem is mental. Yes, yeah, and not that this woman is producing legitimate rabbit babies. Yes, exactly. So he reports back to the king after these findings and uh d confirms that he suspects a hoax from Mary. Oh my god, this makes me the ending of this is f scaring me. I'm I'm so frightened, but let's keep going. Meanwhile, a man named Sir Richard Manningham, an eminent doctor and midwife among upper class society in London, was contacted by Saint Andre to attend upon Mary Toft. And after observing her and seeing her give birth to what he believed was a hog's bladder, no, he also seemed unconvinced. But he was persuaded to keep his doubts to himself by Howard and Saint Andre until there was proof of any fraud. So at this point, we have like multiple doctors getting involved who are starting to speculate. Like, I think that this lady just might need some mental help. Or she's just pulling off a massive hoax because she's bored and is like, screw you guys for calling me illiterate. Like, watch me just anyways. It seems that Howard and Saint Andre at this point are trying to save the reputations. They're like, oh, we did say this, and now that's the and that's the other thing I think that happens in these. That's so funny. This is so long ago, and I feel like this is exact, no one wants to say, whoops, I'm wrong. Like nobody ever wants to just be like, you know what? We did go a little hard in the paint, and uh, I am gonna walk it back for the sake of knowledge that is true. Yes, exactly. Like, don't be disruptive to the truth, just be like, humble yourself, calm your ego, and be like, yeah, I'm I did, I did mess that up. I did get a little excited. Yes. I'm sorry about that. Yeah. So on November 29th, Mary Toft was brought to a place called Lacey's Bagneo, which is a bathhouse in London's uh Leicester Fields. I think I'm saying that right, where she could be observed more closely. Saint Andre contacted another fellow named Dr. James Douglas, who is the respected uh anatomist and man midwife, and asked him to come to the bathhouse to observe Mary's. Rabbit births. Ew, I hate everything about this. Yep, yep, it's it's it's not pleasant. When Douglas arrives, there's a huge crowd of doctors and medical men who had been summoned by Saint Andre. Unfortunately, for Saint Andre, who was desperate to have Douglas validate the rabbit births, Douglas believed the whole affair to be a fraud. So between the 30th of November and December 3rd, uh opinion was divided among the medical men gathered there. Uh Mary produced no more new rabbits, but continued to appear to go into labor. She was also badly infected and had fits, which made her lose consciousness. So she's sick, obviously, at this point. Shortly thereafter, a porter at uh Mr. at the bathhouse was caught trying to sneak a rabbit into Mary Toft's room. Oh my yeah. Yeah. That's not okay. He had he confessed to Douglas and Manningham that Margaret Toft, Mary's sister-in-law, had asked him to procure the smallest rabbit he could find. Oh, in law toxicity. To say the very I think this might even be classified as abuse. Yeah. So Manningham and Douglas were determined to obtain a confession of guilt from Mary, but decided to see if she would incriminate herself. They didn't have long to wait as she went into labor on December 4th, but produced nothing. On that evening, they called Sir Thomas Clarges, Justice of the Peace, to the bathhouse. The porter, Thomas Howard, swore a deposition before him, and the Justice of the Peace immediately took Mary into custody for questioning, but she would admit nothing. Maybe go to Margaret or Anne. Go to the sister-in-law that you just had a confession. Yeah, that's like clearly. Yeah, like Mary's facilitating this. And like she's clearly sick because you can't have animals inside of you naturally without being ill physically and mentally. Right. So it's like, I don't know that you should be trying to get a confession from Mary at this point, but anyway. No, uh, she would that's not oh my gosh. Also, if sh if if all the doctors get to be like, no, no, it's real. I I I don't want to admit that I could be wrong, then she gets to do as well. Yes, yes. So over the next two days, m more pressure was added on her to confess, and she held out until Sir Richard Manningham threatened to perform painful experimental surgery on her to see if she was formed differently from other women, and she was forced to admit on December 7th, 1726, that she had manually inserted dead rabbits into Mad and then allowed them to. They had a different word here, but I don't like that word. So no, no, no, no, no, no. Yep. Immature and say hoo-ha, and then allowed them to be removed as if she were giving birth. Am I mad at you right now? I'm so sorry. What is happening? This is insanity. Did that whole thing happen over a year? No, so it all happened over beginning in the miscarriage of supposedly a real child was August, and this wrapped up in December. So was that within the same year? Yep, yep. Okay, so really quickly, thank goodness. Yes, okay. Uh, I don't imagine she would have survived much longer. No, no, definitely not. In several different confessions, she implicated a mysterious stranger, the wife of the organ grinder, her mother-in-law, and John Howard. On why? Yeah. Like why why? Yeah, I know. And like, I don't think you I don't think anybody ever knew or found out. Could be so many things. Could be them being like, let's get rid of this chick, or like, but but also make a name for ourselves in the process. I like I I don't know because it seems deeply it's also just sad because you think of a woman who like isn't it? Doesn't have any means or any education opportunity. Yeah. Nothing. She can't trust already in a wor in a society where even if you are educated as a woman, as soon as you say anything that seems incorrect, you're deemed like mentally. So she on December 9th, she was charged with being a notorious and vile cheat and sent to Bridewell prison, where allegedly she was exhibited to large curious crowds by her warders. Um sorry, why is she in here again? The timing of Top's confession proved extremely awkward for Saint Andre, who only four days earlier, on the 3rd of December, had published his 40-page pamphlet, a short narrative of an extraordinary delivery of rabbits. So yeah. Oh, that's hilarious. Um, and it details like all the events. If one assumes Saint Andre was not complicit in the hoax, though some people believed him to be, it was most likely this explanation of Tofts which had him so convinced, tying in as it did so neatly with the theory of maternal impression, an idea popular at the time. Maternal impression, which explained the existence of birth defects and congenital disorders. Yes. Yep, yep, yep. The theory proposed that an emotional stimulus experienced by a pregnant woman, such as Mary's rabbit dreams and her desire for rabbit meat. Oh, which is weird, could influence the development of the fetus. Mental problems such as depression or schizophrenia were believed to be a manifestation of similar feelings in the mother. For instance, a woman who experienced great sadness whilst pregnant might imprint depressive tendencies on. Of course. Of course, it would be the mother's fault that yeah, for sure. It's not not the plethora of hormone changes. That's that's not it. It's definitely the mom just being sad. Yes, exactly. So this is all just what you would kind of expect. Another case of Joseph Merrick, the so-called elephant man, is perhaps one of the most famous instances of the theory of maternal impression. So Merrick wrote in his autobiographical pamphlet the deformity which I am now exhibiting was caused by my mother being frightened by an elephant. My mother was going along the street when a procession of animals was passing by. There was a terrible crush of people to see them, and unfortunately, she was pushed under the elephant's feet, which frightened her very much. This occurring during a time of pregnancy was the cause of my deformity. Of course. That's just hashtag science. But I could also see like a mom being like just trying to be like a little kid being like, why do I look this way? And a mom being like, Well, yeah, you know, a little story. Like, I was afraid. So uh, of course, the aftermath of the hoax, the medical profession suffered a great deal of mockery for what the public viewed as its gullibility. So, and as we talked about as well, part of the reason that her case generated so much interest and discussion was the fact that although babies had been traditionally delivered by female midwives, the rapidly growing field of medical science had recently begun to dominate the area of obstetrics among the upper classes. So obviously we know that's men. And men were being promoted as experts on the theory of reproduction, although they were often viewed with mistrust due to the access they had to women's bodies. So And maybe just the fact that they're out there being like, it is real, she is having funny babies. Yes, the fact that an illiterate woman like Mary Toft had fooled many eminent doctors, some with royal connections and patients, put the debate between science and the old traditions sharply and focused. So it is satisfying to think that a bunch of men got on the case um instead of a midwife. Yeah, and was like midwife would be like, bitch, this is not giving you these animals. And ma'am, please don't stuff them up there. Yeah, that's not what it's for. That's not where those go. Men are like, this is my chance to write a paper and become famous. And you know. Yep. Oh my gosh. Well, I don't know how to feel. Oh, sorry, is that the conclusion? That is that's pretty much it. Just the the result is that Saint Andre lost favor with the court, his reputation plummeted, his patients deserted him, he retired from London, eventually died in poverty, and then see, and I guess that's the problem too, is that you need to create a safe space for people to make mistakes as well. Yeah, like you need to be able to like fail and be like, okay, that wasn't correct. Let's go back and see why. Let's like if if it's if it's like, well, you have to be right or you're gonna die in poverty, of course, you're gonna do absolutely everything in your power to like drive that home. You're like, well, I'm already hitched the wagon. So I either try my absolute best proving it, or I'm going to be homeless anyway. So it's true, it's true. Although I will say, if it was his ego that took him to that point, then it could be his ego that brought him to poverty, unless the fact that he didn't have other options. Like he probably as a man could have figured something out, but maybe his pride was so but who knows? I think that goes all the way up the line. It's basically like whoever he's reporting to doesn't want to be viewed as dumb and not managing his like functions properly. So, like, there's it's like, okay, well, you messed up by yeah, and then as for Mary Toft, the case against her was dismissed. And she was like, All right, back to the country. Yeah, not for lack of proof of guilt, but probably because of the further embarrassment to the establishment that would ensue the case were pursued any further. So they're like, Can you please just go over there and be quiet? Yeah, she spent a few months in jail and then returned to um relative obscurity. And the question as to why she and her family went to such extraordinary lengths to convince the nation that Mary had the ability to give birth to rabbits is perhaps not too hard to answer. Monstrous or deformed people had been exhibited at a price all over Europe for hundreds of years, with poor and wealthy alike equally fascinated. Ironically, for Mary, although the hoax was not successful, she did succeed for a while in becoming an object of curiosity. So, in the years that followed the scandal, the Duke of Richmond um sometimes showed her at dinner parties for the curiosity of his guests. Isn't that just lovely? And again, like what does that even look like as a vibe? You have like all of these people just so properly like down nabby style dressed. Yes and like this is like the Hunger Games. It's like when it's like when movies and stories put the the biggest fascination with the ultra wealthy. It's like, aren't you bored of like being that disgustingly wealthy and powerful? It's like, yeah, they are. They are, and this is what they do to serve their curiosity. That is nuts. Yeah, man. It's pretty crazy. My brain is struggling to absorb it. Um, but I'm so happy that you brought it forth. We are gonna take a very hard left turn. So lighter. I'm excited. It is lighter, but like maybe similar in a way. We'll we'll see why, but like similar through line, perhaps. Question. When I say leftovers, what are some of the things that come to mind? I absolutely love when you kick it off with a question. Um, well, food. Of course. Absolutely. I am gonna guide you a little further to give me the answer that I specifically am looking for. Perfect. If you were going to, okay, you've cooked your meal and you need to put your leftovers in something. All right, yes. Tupperware. Yes, so it's so good that you organically came to that. That's very well done. So, Tupperware, when we think about it, is very much like Kleenex or Band-Aids. Like the brand itself, Tupperware itself is the brand. It's not like it's a food container. But everybody calls it Tupperware, obviously, similar to Kleenex. Okay, my next question. Have you ever heard of Brownie Wise? The person? Brownie wise? Yeah. Okay, first of all, no. Secondly, what an incredible name. I know. I know, I know. I had to read it a couple times and be like, wait, what? Is that a person? And it is. So, yes, they're both incredibly intertwined with each other. And today we are going to talk about the history of Tupperware and the woman who may have accidentally invented influencer marketing about 70 years before Instagram existed. Oh, okay. So before we introduce Brownie Wise, we have to meet Earl Tupper, which I'm sure you can assume is the inventor of Tupperware. Yes. So after World War II, manufacturers had figured out how to make durable plastic on a massive scale. Probably talk to our oceans. It's like the beginning of the end. Most people hated it. Plastic felt cheap, disposable, inferior to glass, which I kind of agree with today. Um yes. It would be so much better if we just used natural glasses, fine. But Earl disagreed and he believed plastic could become part of everyday life. And his biggest invention wasn't actually the bowl or like the container itself, it was the lid. So inspired by the airtight seal on paint cans, he created a flexible lid that forced air out and sealed food inside. And if you've ever quote unquote burped a piece of Tupperware, which is just a disgusting way to say it, that's Earl Tupper. So, like that specific action of like, you know, having your lid and you like pluck it on and it just seals to the thing, that's his invention. So it worked brilliantly, food stayed fresh. And like if we're thinking of World War II, obviously that's a lovely thing to have for people who are putting away leftovers. They're like, okay, sweet, we get it. The container stacked neatly, which I would disagree. It's like I doesn't matter how much Tupperware I purchase, I probably only ever have a whole drawer full full, but like only one that actually is functional. Yep, yep. Bane of my existence. I don't like this Earl Tupper now that we're talking about it. So it really should have been an instant hit, but it wasn't. Almost nobody bought them. It was a massive failure. So the product wasn't confusing to Earl. He was like, obviously, this is the best. It keeps food longer. Why on earth is no one else getting it? It was confusing to everybody. People had never seen flexible plastic. So they're like, what is this? They didn't understand how the seal worked, like it required some training. Retail employees didn't know how to explain it. If you didn't burp the lid, it actually felt broken. So it's like there was a motion, a physical motion that needed to happen in order for it to actually work. You know, it's like inventing the iPhone, and nobody teaches anyone how to unlock the screen. It's just like, well, what in the F is this? Now enter Brownie Wise. So Brownie Wise, which is the best name ever. Like now I just want someone to have a baby and call her Brownie because how adorable. And it goes so well with the last name Wise. Brownie Wise. She sounds like a like a witch from Harry Potter. Yes. Anyway, so now we meet the woman who changes everything. So Brownie Wise was a divorced single mother. That alone made her unusual. Oh gosh. In the late 1940s. So now we've got a now we've got a date. 1940s is when where we're living right now. Got it. So think like in my brain, this is very much like madmen vibes. Okay, I've never seen that, but oh my gosh. It's just so good for the fashions alone. I need to. It's on a list, but I'm not sure. That's a gooder. It's a good error. Probably a little bit sooner than that, actually. So she hadn't gone to college. She had built a career selling household, household products. Products through home demonstrations. And she noticed something when she would be selling these household products. Why is that difficult to say? Women weren't coming because they needed another cleaning product. They weren't like, oh, I absolutely must come to your home and tell me more about this cleaning product. That's what I need. They were be coming because they wanted to be together. They wanted conversation, coffee, friendship, community. This is before social media. And then also I'm just thinking it's during a time where like women were stay-at-home moms and homekeepers, basically. So, like, how are you meeting meeting friends? Like there's you know what I mean? Like you, and there's nothing that's yours that's like a time for you, or you know, an excuse to be like, hey, I'm going over to Brownie's to learn about the new, you know, window spray. For many women, their social lives revolved around their homes. Brownie realized something Earl never had because he's a dude. She wasn't selling containers, she was selling an experience. Yep. Very modern day. Yes. So enter the Tupperware party. So Brownie's idea was simple. Don't sell Tupperware in department stores, sell it in living rooms. Friends invited friends. There were games, prizes, recipes, laughter, food, convass, convass, conversations. Conversations. But then somewhere in the middle, someone demonstrated Tupperware that's like, let's create a vibe. And then all of a sudden I'll pull out my Tupperware and I'll be like, hey ladies, don't you hate dealing with cellophane? Like, look at this perfect little container, and all you have to do is this. And then, you know, they're like, ooh, ah, also, you know, I need an excuse as to why I'm here. I'll buy a couple of those. Because people trusted the person showing it, sales almost happened by accident and immediately. So it wasn't the company. Brownie had discovered something decades before psychologists gave it a name. Social proof. We're much more likely to trust people we know than advertisements. The bulls weren't the attraction the gatherings were, which totally makes sense. Yeah. I mean, that's still like the best form of marketing today. So yeah, word of mouth, baby. Yep. So sales exploded so much so that Earl Tupper made an unbelievable decision. He removed Tupperware from retail stores completely. And the only way you could buy it was at a Tupperware party. So Brownie now builds an empire. So in 1951, Brownie Wise was promoted to vice president of Tupperware Home Parties, which is just I mean, amazing. Yeah, in the 50s? Like, come on. So a divorced single mother without a college degree in the 50s becomes a vice president of one of America's fastest growing companies in the early 50s. She built an entire culture, recognition, awards, pins, jewelry, cars, dream vacations, massive annual conventions called Jubilees, thousands of women attend. The top sellers walked across stages while crowds cheered. And like as you're hearing this, I can think of so many things that exist today that are like that, that have every single one of those things, like Arbon and Mary Kay, and all like if you've ever known someone who does those sorts of things, that is what is on their feed. That is what they consistently talk. It's like a cult. Like they basically are in, they try and get other people in, but it works. Although I kind of feel like with the rise of Instagram and like people being able to sell and influence online and not having to have parties and stuff like that, you like create this illusion of, you know, you you feel like you know somebody and trust somebody on Instagram who's like created this footprint, and then all of a sudden, they're like, oh, buy this product. So I feel like now we're kind of getting into a space where it's less that. Yeah, that's true. That is true. It's still like about somebody you know and trust, but like it's trust that's even if it's fake. Yeah, which it is kind of. I mean, that's ultimately what so I think that is what social media influencers do. And it is kind of fake too, even like the parties as well. Like they're their their goal is to hit a sales thing. So like they are working the room, they are you know creating this sort of do you know, is it nice? Yes, for sure. But like there is definitely an element of like pressure, but I Anyways, back to Brownie Wise. So for many women, this wasn't just extra income. It was also confidence, purpose, leadership, community. It was like something that they could do and could be successful at and were recognized for, which is like unheard of, especially during this time. So sales skyrocketed from hundreds of thousands of dollars annually into tens of millions within just a few years. Wow. Wow. So yes. Huge. So she hadn't just built a sales force, she had built a movement and like a completely new way of selling. Yeah. Well, and you know, I another thing I think about is like if for marketing, I have to think about like I don't want to talk about marketing, but I have to think about like demographics and stuff. And what she would have had going for her or anybody at this time. She's like boots on the ground. Yeah, well, and you're tapping into there's a lot of women. Why, why, why have we only ever been selling to men? Like, yeah. And now this is an experience and something that is bringing women together. So it doesn't surprise me that it jumped that high. And now that I'm thinking about all of those setups, actually, they are all very female. Like, if you're thinking about the target market, they're all very I can't think of a single like male-dominated. No, the only ones like pyramid scheme type thing that I can think of is like uh for men would be like insurance. There's like some insurance ones. But even then, I don't know that they're I I can't say for sure that they're only or predominantly men, but definitely a lot of them are like Arbon. Although you remember Mum used to have those parties, and I love it. Yeah, Mary Kay. Yeah, Mary Kay, but then also there was a candlelight one, which is which was nice because it was like you just picked out candles, basically. Yeah, totally, it's such a good, and I just think about like ladies just be loving an excuse to have a party, you know, and like be like, it's a girl's night. Like it's just I get it. So Brownie becomes totally famous. She appears on television, she gives interviews, she spoke at conferences, and in 1954, she becomes the first woman ever featured on the cover of Business Week, which is like a huge deal. And again, it's not because she created the invented Tupperware, it's because she knew how to sell it. Like she was a bona fide businesswoman in, you know, to be the first one ever on business week is just feels like a huge deal. That is. So she became more recognizable than Earl Tupper himself. And so, you know, in 1958, I feel like we can all sort of feel this coming. Brownie Wise is fired, just like that. No celebration, no thank you, just gone. So, like, if we think about that 1954, she's the first ever woman featured on Business Week, 1958. So, four years later, she gets fired. So gone. Yes. Some historians believe Earl Tupper wanted complete control of the company. Others believed Brownie had simply become bigger than the brand itself, which is like, who cares? That's I mean, that's why you got so big, but whatever. Whatever the reason was, though, the woman who built Tupperware's success was suddenly out. Brownie didn't own a single stock in the company. So she had built the empire, she was the face of the empire, but she didn't own a single piece of it. Even the beautiful house she lived in, it belonged to Tupperware. So when she lost her job, she lost the house too. She sued Earl Tupper for 1.6 million, arguing breach of contract. The case eventually settled, and she received $30,000. No effing way. Nuts. Oh my god. That $30,000. Very aggravating to me. So aggravating. So that's what the woman who transferred Tupperware. We would not even know what Tupperware is, truly. Like it was failing. It was failing. And then she rolled and she was like, hey, you know what you need to do? This. Hey, you know what? I'll do it for you. Get your get your burping flexible plastic away from me. True. Unless you have somebody like Brownie wise to make it what it is. Oh. Yep. And then later that same year, Earl Tupper Tupper sold the company for $16 million. So like imagine building something extraordinary, like truly historical in business. And then you get fired, you get $30,000. And the person who invented the product, but had truly nothing to do with it being successful, aside from just creating it, got $16 million. Oh my God. That is really, really I don't, I'm mad. I am I mad at you this time?

unknown 48:57

What?

SPEAKER_01 48:58

I'm frustrated knowing this information. I know. Welcome to Women in Business and Baby. Oh God. Oh my. I mean, in those days, in those days. And I mean the thing is, is that like it's wild to me as well that she would sue him and like that she would follow the proper channels and it would still be like, okay, well, we'll kick you 30k. Yeah. When she was very clearly, but this is the thing. You gotta like don't undervalue yourself. Make sure you have your decks in a row. Advocate for yourself in every scenario. It's easy, obviously, for us to think this way now because we are like built off of these lessons, but it is truly such a good reminder. It is true. Wait, so sorry, how long after she sued him or the settlement happened that he sold the company? Within the year. Okay, so what really just even more pisses me off is like he was well aware that he was selling. 16 million is not enough. Like he didn't want to share any of it. Yeah, that's insane. You knew what you were doing, you knew you were gonna sell it, and you can't give her more than you can't give her 1.6. She deserves 1.6. It's like chump change in comparison. Isn't that nuts? That's crazy. Yes. So as we mentioned before, we've seen this sort of like structure. This was the first time that anything like this happened, but it was so influential, is the other part of it, too, that it created a way of selling that we still see today. So like Mary Kay, Avon, Pampered Chef, Epicure, Scentsy, Arbon, all of those different companies, and there's many, many more, um, were all built off of the same premise of you need to like build trust and community, and then you infiltrate and force people to buy things. Really aggressive sales structure. But it's clearly something that's very successful. And when you think about how, like, I would love to know in business. I mean, I guess I went to business school, so but this was not referenced. But I would love to know if it is referenced in any other form of business school. I wonder if her name is mentioned. Do you know what I mean? Like, or if it's just sort of like, oh, this was a way that was created for selling and has totally changed multi-million billion dollar companies and how they sell. It's also such a good business story from like the perspective of protecting yourself and not, you know. Well, and it's also just informative from a business perspective to understand how and why that took off when it did. Because now, of course, those kinds of models are on the they're kind of laughed at. Like, you know, when you you start talking to somebody and they're like, Oh, I want to talk to you. Like, this has happened to me before with Arbon so many times. It's like I actually do like I have my own business with like makeup and skincare, and I'm already in my head, I'm like, it's Arbon, and you're gonna want to talk to me about it soon. And like, no offense, no, if it works for people, and it does. I have a friend who like was very successful in it. She got a Mercedes through it. Like, it works for people that want to sell and like to do that, but there is now a bit of a like you know, stigma. Yeah, and I for sure. And so you gotta kind of see, like, and if you want to maintain that model for what it was back then, then now you have to know how it happened. Like, now what do we have to do to make that kind of model be successful in the future now that we know what we know? But well, I think now what has happened is how people sell on Instagram now. It's like instead of actually having to physically gather, people are finding community on Instagram and trust on Instagram, which again is just indicative of us losing connection with each other, but still, you know, like that, it's being mimicked now and amp amplified with access to Instagram. So it's it's so true. And it will it will come back around. It people, I I'm a firm believer in trends just coming back around. I do think like being ever slow is gonna be, yeah, like it'll that'll be a new that'll be the the cool thing to do because it's like less common. Although I will say for the successful influencers on Instagram, they do actually get a lot of in-person invite event type things that always look like such a treat. But that's for them how they build trust with their audiences. The audiences don't get like validity, yeah. And you're like, oh, this person must be trustworthy if Tarte is working with them or like benefit is working with them, like they must be trustworthy. It's marketing is such an interesting. So, like working in HR, I've usually always supported the marketing teams, and it's like one of my favorite teams to support because it is such a human part of business where you are truly trying to influence people to purchase your product or utilize your product. Like it's so interesting to see the work behind products and how manipulative it can be. Oh my god, because it is, it is, it is, it's like a whole bunch of work that goes into creating this like organic moment where someone is like, oh my gosh, it's so funny. I thought like someone had mentioned this the other day, and all of a sudden it's right in front of me. Like that must be a sign. I should purchase it. Like it's but none of that is organic, it is all targeted and like, and there's just an element of like, I'm just impressed by it almost, where it's like, wow, and also a reminder to just be a critical thinker as well. Uh, most definitely. This is what I this is how this is how I would prefer to educate my stakeholders. Is I don't my preferred method of marketing always is like benefit out of the this is not an official term for the record, is benefit of the doubt marketing because there are people out there that are like, oh, I guess I should get this. But like I have to imagine that we will think critically, and like I want to market things in a way that is so intelligent and is so, but like also simple. And I feel like it doesn't look like a ton of effort went into it, but it feels exactly and like slick, exactly, and also just recognize there are people out there that don't need this and don't want it, so don't try and go after those people. Like this is we need to get, anyways, it's so it's like cheap thrills versus like I remember you talking about I'm not gonna say their name because you don't get free marketing here, everybody, but there's a perfume company, which I'm sure you know, if you think about it hard, that has really good marketing with like just there. I I I love I love businesses that really dial in on what they need to do. Cause I also appreciate businesses that are like we are going to market the shit out of this in a very like aggressive, cheap, and cheerful way, or ones that are like we're gonna pour a ton of money into marketing and really make it an experience for something, that's how we're gonna differentiate it, is the marketing. Like it's just because it can be that awesome. Marketing most of the time is shit, but also sometimes it can be incredible. And if you work for a company that has a really good that values it that way, also when you're working for a company that knows how to get behind things and also stand up for things that matter, like your marketing is gonna be so much more fun and enjoyable to create because you're I'm just thinking of companies that I love, like Patagonia, also that perfume company, like their campaigns are incredible and they know what they're doing, and it's just the best. Also, that perfume company, by the way. I don't know if you know this. Sarah and I follow this account on Instagram because we're it's called uh mudlarking, yeah, and it's just basically when people are going through big bodies of water or streams and finding very old things, and yeah, it's incredible. Like a doll's face, yeah, like a bottle from like a hundred years ago, or like liquor bottles from like so long ago, and she marbles, all sorts of things, so many things. There's this one called shout out to her, uh, my ordinary treasures on Instagram, and she's just this woman who she works in the Thames, but also like other streams in Britain, and she finds the craziest things, like a sword, anyways. It's it's amazing. Check it out. She had yes, and that's her whole thing. That's what she does. She has a massive following, that's all she does. She's not selling stuff. I have yet to see her do any kind of partnership. I think she just genuinely loves it so much. However, guess who hired her to help with the art direction for one of their perfumes in the last year? Really? Yes, that perfume. And they you they they like she was interviewed, they they looked at her collections, like it was inspired. If my boss was like, I need you to get in contact with this woman, this is her Instagram, this is what she does. We want to work with her from a creative perspective. Sign me up. I would anyway, it's just there's cool ways to do marketing, is is my final thing. But back to you and Brownie wise. Listen, that's it. That's all I have. That's that sums it up. It's a it's a tragic ending, a good story and reminder to advocate for yourself and like not give your talent away for free. Um, and also just a reminder of like, you know, the shit that women had to go through back in the day to provide us the ability to be mad about it. Yes, absolutely agree. I feel like now every time I pull out a piece of Tupperware, I will. And be like, thank you, Brannywise. Yeah, I'm thanking her. I'm thinking of her. Screw the other guy. I already forget his first name. Yeah. Well, I mean, the other thing is like, I don't know the last time I've actually purchased Tupperware brand.

unknown 58:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 58:47

Tupperware. So I guess that's like the silver lining is that now there's this like food container industry, I suppose. We all call it Tupperware, and that's not because of Mr. Tupper. That is because of Brownie Wise. So you can think, and that's not generating any dollars, that's just pure recognition. She literally named a whole industry. Yeah. Anyhood. I feel like that's it. So, you know, birthing bunnies and Tupperware direct to market selling or whatever it's called. Yeah. Real up down all around day, I'd say. Yeah. Okay, bye. See you next week. Bye.