Harbingers and Omens

Banshees. Shadow figures. Strange warnings that come before tragedy.
 In this episode of Voices From The Attic, we explore harbingers and omens—and the unsettling stories that make people wonder if something knows what’s coming before we do.

Kathi Kresol – Haunted Rockford – 

https://www.hauntedrockford.com/

Ghost Guys Go – Gray Man video -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=37&v=Nl7oZEuYb8M

Contact Us –

VFTAttic@gmail.com 

New episodes released regularly.

Join Paranormal Mystery Author Terri Reid and researcher Andrew T. Reid as they explore ghosts, cryptids, alien encounters, and other unexplained mysteries.

If you'd like to share your opinion, thoughts, or your own paranormal experience with us, please contact us at vftattic@gmail.com. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Most of us really start to worry when Jim Cantori of the Weather Channel shows up in our neck of the woods. But in South Carolina, Jim Cantori isn't the only harbinger of bad weather that gets people concerned. The gray man is a long-held South Carolina specter who appears on the beach or on a pier just before a major hurricane. And the good news is, just like Jim Cantori, he's only there to warn you. And those who see him seem to be spared from the worst of the weather. Legend says the ghost was a young plantation owner returning to Polly's island during a storm to ask his true love for her hand in marriage. During his trip on horseback to her home, his horse was spooked because of the storm, and he was thrown into quicksand and died before he could propose to the girl. The girl, distraught by the death of the young man, began walking along the beach alone, contemplating her lonely life. One day, while walking, she saw a man at the distance who looked like her young man. She ran to him, but he disappeared before she could reach him. That night, as she slept, she heard him whisper that she and her family needed to get off the island because a giant wind was coming. She heeded his warning, and she, her family, and their home were spared.

SPEAKER_03 1:39

Listen closely, old walls still speak. Some things are hidden, not to be forgotten, but to be kept.

SPEAKER_00 1:48

The old house remembers what others forget.

SPEAKER_03 1:51

What is remembered is never truly.

SPEAKER_00 1:55

Listen closely, and you too may just hear voices from the attic. Hi, welcome to Voices in the Attic.

SPEAKER_02 2:17

I am Andrew T. Reed. I'm a researcher, writer, um, editor, and just overall big old giant nerd. And a son. I am also I'm also a son, specifically Terry Reed's son.

SPEAKER_00 2:31

Hi, I'm Terry Reed. I'm an author, um, storyteller, uh, now researcher, podcaster, mom, mom, and grandma. And uh, we're glad you made it here. Um, I don't know if we do this, but like and subscribe.

SPEAKER_02 2:49

Yes. Follow, like, subscribe, comment, tell your friends about us. Do everything. Do the hokie pokey. Yeah, turn your own. I used to be addicted to the hokey pokey, but it's okay. I turned myself around. We got jokes. We got jokes, guys.

SPEAKER_00 3:05

Please forgive us for those terrible jokes.

SPEAKER_02 3:08

I will not ask for your forgiveness for my hilarious jokes. I ask no forgiveness.

SPEAKER_00 3:13

I seek no So my question to you is Is Jim Cantori a harbinger or an omen?

SPEAKER_02 3:21

It's a good question. All I know is whether the weather is cold or whether the weather is hot. Well, whether the weather, whatever the weather, whether you like it or not.

SPEAKER_00 3:29

Oh, that was very nicely done.

SPEAKER_02 3:31

That was from choir. That was a warm-up that we used to do for choir.

SPEAKER_00 3:36

Oh, very nice. So let me tell you a little bit more about the gray man, if that's okay. Yeah. I'll just continue. Yeah. So um I sent you this, so you should include it because they're they're letting us do it. There's a paranormal group called Ghost Guys Go. And they were Triple G. I know. And they were reviewing a video from a live stream webcam. Oh.

SPEAKER_02 3:59

Um so it's it's not added in post. Definitely not. Because it's yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:04

It was from Avalon Pier just before Hurricane Florence hit. And they caught the gray man.

SPEAKER_02 4:13

Interesting. And and interesting.

SPEAKER_00 4:15

They it's i I I sent it to you on a link, but they they already did it.

SPEAKER_02 4:19

Yeah, I'm that you don't look at my stuff. Well, no, I I you sent it to me. I guess what I mean is I'm going to be I'm going to be putting this here so that others can see.

SPEAKER_00 4:28

Yes. Right? And they said you could do that. They they said that as long as you give them credit, which we I I would obviously want to do. Absolutely. But so, and they've even circled it, but you can see the shadowy figure going across the pier, and it's in the evening and it's just before the hurricane hit. That's really cool. It's way cool. So, anyway.

SPEAKER_02 4:47

And and I guess I should I should clarify, I will put that in there so that our watchers on YouTube. Oh, that's right. Because unfortunately, we we're not unfortunately. We are a podcast first podcast. So if you're listening to this, uh, first of all, we highly encourage you to keep listening to it. We love we love for you to to you know keep on, keeping on. We we will put a link in the description of this, but on the YouTube version, we will include it. We'll put the the clip the post here, and then we'll also still include the link in the description so you can see the whole thing if you'd like.

SPEAKER_00 5:24

Excellent, excellent. So um the employees at Avalon. Sorry, go ahead. The employees at Avalon Pier have actually confirmed that it's their video, and they have not they've touched it. And they but they won't commit to whether they think it's paranormal or not. Of course not.

SPEAKER_02 5:42

You can't, as an organization, you can't say something is paranormal without people going, okay, you're just looking for you know um tourism or things like that.

SPEAKER_00 5:52

On the pier right before hurricane. Yeah, that's tourism.

SPEAKER_02 5:55

Yeah, you you don't want to see the gray man as a thing. You it sounds like you if you see the gray man, then you probably want to leave South Carolina for a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 6:04

According to an article by thedailymail.com, he is believed to have first appeared in 1822, but was cited before Hurricane Hazel in 1954, and more recently, um, just before Hurricane Hugo in 1989, there's a number of gray man encounters which have been cited in newspapers. They record how locals throughout the years have seen the silent ghost, and then they and their homes are spared from devastation. So if you encounter him, see him, and I was looking him up and there was like a Reddit thing about him, and one person said that he was um she didn't realize it was the gray man. They walked past him on the beach, and he just was quiet and he walked right by them. But he seemed what is it? Fleshy. I mean flesh and bone? Flesh and bone. Yeah, tangible. Yeah, thank you. That's a good word. Um, so another version of uh the legend says that he is actually Percival Pauly, after whom Pauley Island was named. I think you you pronounced it wrong.

SPEAKER_02 7:10

Percival Pauley at your service. As at least I mean, this is South Carolina, so he probably didn't have that accent, but man, the name of Percival Pauly, he needs to have that accent.

SPEAKER_00 7:21

No, he Percival Pauli. I think he if he said Percival Paul, I I can't do southern right now. That was bad. Well, because there's Percival Pauley. But you don't want that. No, you're not a big thing.

SPEAKER_02 7:32

Yeah, you want the the the more aristocratic Percival Paul. But that's that's a hard, that's a hard name to do that kind of um aristocratic southern accent. Bourigat.

SPEAKER_00 7:44

Yeah, something that kind of an accent. Sorry. We did warn you, we ADHD.

SPEAKER_02 7:48

We didn't warn you um this episode. So this is your this is your warning. We have ADHD. Okay. You've been warned.

SPEAKER_00 7:56

So they say he's just watching over the island and the people who live there, because he it was named after him. Um another version, and a little more dustardly, says that he's actually the ghost of the famous pirate Blackbeard, and he wanders the shores trying to make amends for his life of pillaging and murder. Isn't that sweet? I don't believe that one. I know.

SPEAKER_02 8:18

Well, I feel like if it the gray man, I guess I don't know what the gray man looks like. My my mind imagines that if it was a gray man with a black beard, probably that would be in the description somehow. Gray man seems like he's clean shaven, or at the very least, doesn't have m uh very prominent And he's not wearing pirate uh, he's wearing like a trench coat.

SPEAKER_00 8:42

Right, right. So it's not pirate garb. Yeah. I feel like I feel like black he'd have to say R if he was That's true.

SPEAKER_02 8:49

What is a pirate's favorite letter?

SPEAKER_00 8:51

R. You think it's R, but it'd really be the C. That's the second joke.

SPEAKER_02 8:58

Guys, we got jokes.

SPEAKER_00 9:00

We got jokes.

SPEAKER_02 9:00

We got jokes.

SPEAKER_00 9:01

Okay, so the ghost or the legend actually got national attention when Jim and Clara Moore, who live on Polly Island, saw the ghost just before Hurricane Hugo hit. They credit the ghost with saving their lives and sparing their home. They were interviewed by the show Unsolved Mysteries and told their story. Just two days before Hugo struck, the couple had been walking along the beach late in the afternoon and they saw a man walking towards them. When they got within about fifty feet of the man, Jim raised his hand to greet him. But to their surprise, and probably to most of our surprise, the man just disappeared.

SPEAKER_02 9:37

I would be a little shocked.

SPEAKER_00 9:39

I would be surprised slightly. Hey, how's it going? Whoa. Sorry. I I'd apologize. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:45

I didn't mean to offend you by saying hello. You just ghosted me literally.

SPEAKER_00 9:50

Their entire neighborhood was destroyed by Hugo, except for their home. Which was virtually untouched. They could not believe their good fortune. And later, when the local paper questioned the rare whereabouts of the gray man during this tragedy, they both realized that it was the man they'd seen on the beach.

SPEAKER_02 10:10

You know, it and we're gonna have this discussion, and we'll probably actually we should probably circle back. Now, yeah. Well, no, I mean, because we we have other things we want to dive into before that, but we're gonna circle back on this. There's there this episode though hinges on a core question, I guess. Dun dun dun. So in this episode, we're gonna be talking about harbingers, and we're gonna be talking about what they are, what makes harbingers unique. What are some examples? You know, we we have the gray man as an example of a harbinger. And I guess when I say harbinger, it to me it's a it's a specific class of entity, whether it's a spirit or something else. It's something that kind of, you know, it's a robin. Well, we're gonna discuss that. Right, we're gonna discuss that. But uh, but uh a creature that's sent to to warn, we're gonna dive a little bit deeper into that. But there's also this core question of what is a harbinger versus what is an omen. Are there's there's a lot of overlap there. What's the difference? What makes something a harbinger, what makes something an omen, what makes something potentially both? And my and we'll we'll circle back on this. I won't talk about what my thought is with with I mean I no, okay, I will I will throw this out. I will throw this little thing out. It almost feels like a test, a moral test. If they're the only ones that try to greet this guy and then it vanishes, and then their house is spared, where all the others, it almost seems fail-like where there's some moral things, some some moral ideologies that are tested, and then you're either rewarded or you're punished based on how you how you acted towards this entity or whatever. That's what it kind of seems like to me.

SPEAKER_00 12:01

I don't know, because it sounds like these just happen to be these happenstances that they're on the beach at the same time he's on the beach.

SPEAKER_02 12:11

Where they they try to greet the gray man and he vanishes and then their house is spared. Now you're right, the gray man, generally speaking, uh if somebody sees the gray man, usually it there's it's associated with there's a get out of town. Yeah, there's a hurricane or a storm coming up later on. Um but uh you know t to me that that specific story of their house being spared definitely feels like I said, more of a of a fee adjacent morality test. Yes. They they try to greet them, they try to say hi, they try to be kind, and in turn they were their morality, their you know, whatever was was.

SPEAKER_00 12:48

But there's also other stories, and I didn't include that, there's other stories of people that saw him didn't say hi, just saw him, and their house was spirit. That's interesting. So I don't know, I don't know if the interaction is a very good thing.

SPEAKER_02 13:02

Well then almost was like a harbinger of I won't say good news, but a harbinger of you're gonna be spared.

SPEAKER_00 13:07

Yeah, and you get a house, and you get a house, and sorry, you don't you're not getting a house. You're saying you get to keep your house.

SPEAKER_02 13:14

Yeah. Yeah, we're not, yeah. But but before we dive into more of that, let's first talk about the series of events that led us to talking about because there's actually it's very there's a lot of there's an interesting series of events that led us to this d discussion, this dilemma, if you will.

SPEAKER_00 13:34

What is that the series of unfortunate events, but these were actually fortunate.

SPEAKER_02 13:39

Yeah, they're pretty fortunate, yeah. And we didn't get to meet um Neil Patrick Harris or um why am I forgetting his name? Jim Carrey. Oh we didn't get to meet either of those guys.

SPEAKER_00 13:50

That's okay. That's yeah. Okay, so so the the um in February I got to tell ghost stories with Kathy Creasel. And Kathy Creasel is the owner of Haunted Rockford. She's also um um a librarian for the Rockford um library system. Though she is retiring soon, it sounds like yeah, and uh she's also the author of several books about uh true crime in Rockford and haunted Rockford and It seems like a lot of her ghost stories involve elements of of true crime.

SPEAKER_02 14:24

And so honestly, when I listen to some of her ghost stories, I always get a little sad because it's like, oh man, like because you know, we we when we tell a lot of ghost stories, it's almost like I won't say it's disconnected from history, but we don't always do the research into who this person might have been. Whereas she does. She deep dives it. She's she's like a historian, she really gets good information. Yeah, but unfortunately, with ghost stories, when you deep dive, I mean there's always gonna be an element of tragedy associated with them because hey, they died. Right. How did they die? Why are they still here? And usually it's kind of a sad story or very messed up story.

SPEAKER_00 15:00

Right. So this is a tragedy. A tragedy, um, a sad story. There was uh a woman talked about her house being haunted um by a little girl, and she said the the woman noticed things going around, you know, going on in the house, you know, doors would be opened or cabinets opened or noises and things like that. You know, those usual, oh, my house might be haunted kind of feelings. But and they it was husband, wife, and they had a two-year-old daughter and and a dog, and um Which is always what I personally blame spooky noises on. The dog or the cat. Or the cat. Cats are better because they can climb up on knock things. So anyway, so um it's the middle of the night, and their little two-year-old wakes up screaming, and so the mom goes running to her her room, and the two two-year-old, the little girl says that there's another little girl in their room. And mom's saying, No, you're just and she said, No, no, no. Uh she came down from the attic. I know, and and she's where we that's where we hang out. And so she said, No, she came down from the attic.

SPEAKER_02 16:07

Hopefully, we don't see a little girl in this episode in the attic with us. That would be not great. Especially considering the the description that you're about to give.

SPEAKER_00 16:18

So after that encounter, the sightings kind of grew. The daughters saw this little girl more and more often. The mom did not, but the husband was home. Uh, I think the little girl was taking a nap, husband was downstairs w watching football. And as he snorted closed and he, you know, he's asleep on the couch, and he feels a little hand, first touching his shoulder, then touching his face. And you know, you're sleeping, you feel a little hand, you figure it's your own child.

SPEAKER_02 16:49

Which if children, if you're listening to this, adults don't like to be woken up with hands on their face. I mean, just it's there. Fight or flight happens sometimes. You know, that's scary to me. Not at all. I'm an uncle, so I guess my fight or flight reflexes are a little bit different.

SPEAKER_00 17:04

Dad, it's a different thing. And so he just opened his eyes expecting to see his little brunette daughter. Instead, there is a blonde uh standing there. Oh, and he opened his eyes and he was shocked. Yeah, that would wake me right up. Laughed, and she turned away and she was naked. She was this little girl who had no clothes on, and she laughed and then she ran away and totally freaked him out.

SPEAKER_02 17:30

Understandably freaked him out. Why is there a naked blonde child in my house that just ran away?

SPEAKER_00 17:35

And that disappeared. Yeah, yeah. Why is there a naked blonde ghost child in my house?

SPEAKER_02 17:40

Right. Well, I'm yeah, I'm sure at first his groggy mind was, Why is there a naked child in my in my house? She vanishes. Why did that naked child just try all of those things? I wonder how many times we can say the word naked child before we get demonetized. So we're getting uh we're getting told by Ash. Okay, so we're getting the axe there.

SPEAKER_00 18:04

So unfortunately, right after that he saw that, their dog got hit by a car. And um, and so then the wife finally had her first vision of this little girl. Right after that happened, she was actually mugged in downtown Rockford.

SPEAKER_02 18:24

Well how do you know the distance, uh the yeah, I guess the distance of time between the dog getting hit versus the city?

SPEAKER_00 18:32

It sounds like there were not sightings of the little girl. I don't know how many weeks or months had passed, sure. But there weren't sightings of the little girl in between there. Okay. So showed up with the dad, and then the dog got hit by a car. It does. Showed up to the mom, then she got mugged. So she appeared just before bad things would happen.

SPEAKER_02 18:52

So it's it's a relatively you don't want to see this little girl because you know if you do, then in a relatively short amount of time, you're probably gonna something bad might happen.

SPEAKER_00 19:00

And that's what she said. It was like it was she felt like it was an omen. Right. Well or a harbinger.

SPEAKER_02 19:05

And and I guess two times two times as a coincidence, does it happen three times?

SPEAKER_00 19:12

Is it a pattern? No, it those are the two that she expected. So and then they found out from the neighbors that there was a little girl who had drowned in the bat in the bathtub and like in the early 60s. If I remember correctly, at least the the story that I was gonna go into that.

SPEAKER_02 19:30

Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_00 19:31

So she said that's what the woman found out, but then she didn't deep dive. Okay. So of course Kathy then did her deep dive. Her due diligence. Right, and so she went back to articles and she found out that um an uncle had been babysitting, the little girl, and he had drawn a bath for her, but the bath was way too hot. So he told her to stay out of the bathtub.

SPEAKER_02 19:52

Okay, so he tried. He tried to I will always I mean, I won't always, but I will say uncles do get a bad rep when it comes to, you know, stories involving uh children and death and tragedy. Um sometimes it's well deserved.

SPEAKER_00 20:06

Sometimes I'm like, well, it sounds like this was a he had gone to get something. He had gone to get something for her, who knows what it was, but he left the room and she jumped in the the thing and she drowned and and was badly burned. Yeah. And uh and I don't like almost boiled alive. Well, I don't know if if this was before they started having regulations on hot water heaters. Sure. Yeah, that's fair. Because it was early 60s anyway. Right. She made it to the hospital.

SPEAKER_02 20:36

Yeah, because really, I mean, nowadays you shouldn't expect uh a hot water bath to be scalded on the hot. Right, and you shouldn't get potential skin problems. You shouldn't any degree burns from from hot water like that from a yeah drawn sink bathtub.

SPEAKER_00 20:54

So yeah, so they she made it to the hospital. I think she lived a day or so, and then she finally succumbed to and so that's that's probably that little girl. Right.

SPEAKER_02 21:06

So we Which is yeah, why she doesn't have any clothes.

SPEAKER_00 21:09

Right, because she was in the bathtub. And so um, so on the way home that night, um, Andrew and I were talking about that story. It was obviously a story that stays with you. Right.

SPEAKER_02 21:21

And um But kind of I I guess partially for different reasons. I know for you it was because uh it was it's funny because you had heard that story, but you didn't know where. Oh yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:32

Yeah, well, okay, I'll tell that. So I'm listening to Kathy tell this story, and I'm thinking, this is so crazy. It's deja vu. So familiar. So familiar.

SPEAKER_02 21:42

I just heard Kathy telling the story. Which when she was telling me this, I'm not gonna lie, I got a little nervous because I was like, does that mean something bad's gonna happen?

SPEAKER_00 21:50

Well, it was and I did and I went up to Kathy afterwards and I said, I I know we haven't because Kathy and I do generally two events, one in October. October and one of February. And we we, because of our schedules, usually don't see each other except for those two events. And I specifically sad.

SPEAKER_02 22:07

And hopefully we have her on the podcast if she's willing to be fine. That would be awesome if we could have her on the podcast if she'd be willing to come over. Because I'm sure she has a lot of interesting stories.

SPEAKER_00 22:15

She's amazing. Yeah. And buy her books. Yes, absolutely. Hauntedrockford.com is where you can find her information.

SPEAKER_02 22:22

Also, if you're ever, you know, in the area, go to Haunted Rockford, go to some of their ghost tours and things like that.

SPEAKER_00 22:28

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:28

Because they have they have ghost tours.

SPEAKER_00 22:30

The website will show you the tours and the events. Because yeah, they they do really cool events. Really cool events. So anyway, so I knew that I hadn't seen Kathy in several months. So, but this was so familiar. It just so and it didn't hit me. And so I'd gone up to her and said, ah, this was like crazy deja vu. I remember you saying everything, just like you just said. And she said, Really? And I I couldn't, and it did freak me. It's like, am I supposed to be learning? Is it a Roman? Is it a dream about this story recently? Something bad happened afterwards. So um, so then we get in the car and it hits me. The car hit you? No. That was the bad thing. It was a hormonal. It was a no man. Um, no, I realized that to publicize for this, it was called uh The Dead of Winter when we told ghost stories. To publicize for this, Haunted Rockford had made a video of one of the other times that Kathy and I had been together telling ghost stories, and they had just put it out on Facebook like a week, two weeks beforehand.

SPEAKER_02 23:41

So you had seen it recently.

SPEAKER_00 23:42

And I had seen it recently, and I had her to tell this story. And uh, was like, oh, I I'm old, I forget stuff. I yeah, it was I did let her know, so she didn't have to worry about a deja vu event.

SPEAKER_02 23:55

Yeah, she's she's not worried about her friend Terry Reed, you know, getting hit by a car tragically.

SPEAKER_00 24:01

Yes, or getting mugged and downtown. Yeah. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:06

But for me, the reason why it stuck with me as we were leaving this event, this the story of this little girl, the pattern of this of this little girl going and telling, talking to people before something bad happens to them reminded me a lot of actually uh the banshee. A very similar thing, but the difference is obviously the banshee is not necessarily a ghost. Now there are a lot of other iterations, you know. The Banshee is is the Irish example of this. There are other iterations that we you know might talk about later on, um, Scottish, Welsh, where they are actually ghosts, spirits of of some kind. Um, but the Banshee specifically is she, that's why it's the Banshee. It's it's you know, f fairy. Um but you know, I thought about that and I was like, you know, are there are so many interesting and unique examples of spirits or other entities that are harbingers? And and so we started talking about it, but then as we started talking about some of these things, I was like, well, is that really a harbinger or is that more of an omen?

SPEAKER_00 25:22

Okay, and so let me tell you my really, really cool description between the two of them.

SPEAKER_02 25:27

Yes, yes, and then yeah, go go for it, and then I'll I'll do a little bit more of a of a deep dive, but with this idea in mind.

SPEAKER_00 25:33

Okay, sorry. Ah, here it is. An omen is a sign we notice. A harbinger is something that notices us. So dun dun dun.

SPEAKER_02 25:50

Which is really cool, but also a little spooky to think about. Yes. I don't want things that I don't notice noticing me necessarily. Um unless, you know, it's our wonderful viewers, in which case I do notice you. I love you and I appreciate you. That was a little creepy. So a robin. I'll love them in a in a in a strictly platonic overall love world. Yes, in a in a podcaster to audience kind of way.

SPEAKER_00 26:17

I love you guys. I wish you all the best. A robin instead of a harbinger of spring, because it's not noticing us, we're noticing it. It's just going around its its life doing its thing. So a robin is an omen of spring.

SPEAKER_02 26:30

Oh man.

SPEAKER_00 26:30

Oh man. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 26:32

So what are what are harbingers? Well, I did a fun little deep dive because that's what I like to do too. Um, Kathy does deep dives into history and and true crime. I can do that, but I like deep diving into random weird things. So according to Google AI, which got its information from the Oxford, from Oxford languages, a harbinger is a person or thing that announces or signals the approach of another. The term itself comes from the old French word herbenzer. Now, you would think it might be herbenzer, but we had an argument about that. I looked and and from all the pronunciation guides that I have seen, it says the pronunciation is H-E-R. Well, H like upside down.

SPEAKER_00 27:24

Oh, is that what it's yeah, it's a schwa schwa.

SPEAKER_02 27:26

H- schwa r schwa r than z-h a y r or like a soft z. So it's it's herbagre. Herbiger. Herbager. Which, yeah, when you say herbager sounds a lot more French. Um, so this term was used, um, both herbagère as well as harbinger. Uh, it was used first started around 1175, circa seventy uh 1175, and it continued on to about 1503, meaning uh referring to someone, excuse me, referring to someone who provides lodging, like a host or a harborer. That's probably, I would imagine that might be where some of the root also comes from, the the the word harbor. Um your boat would spend the night. Exactly. We're your boat, but also, you know, a harbor as well. I mean, that was uh it's also a way a lodging, a type of lodging.

SPEAKER_00 28:21

That's true, safe harbor from the storm.

SPEAKER_02 28:23

Exactly. Exactly. Um around 1386, the definition started changing a little bit to refer to someone who was sent to scout for lodgings for an army or royalty. Uh, or probably in a more realistic sense, somebody who let the owner or keeper of certain lodgings know, hey, we're gonna be using your lodgings. We found your lodgings appropriate. Get ready for us to show up. Um, because I would imagine that, you know, if you're a royal army or you're royalty, you don't necessarily ask somebody to, yeah, hey, you just inform. Yeah, you let them know. You don't go, are you guys available? Like, is there a room available uh during this time? You say, Hey, we're gonna be here. Make sure there's a enough rooms available. Right. Um you don't really need to say the or else, but I mean, I'm sure the or else is implied.

SPEAKER_00 29:18

Right.

SPEAKER_02 29:18

Um, and in fact, there was an official role for the royal household called the Knight Harbinger, uh, which until 1847, which this is when the uh when that role was discontinued. Okay, the Knight Harbinger was in charge of arranging housing for the king and his retinue during the royal progress. So yeah, so they he'd he'd be the one he he's essentially like uh I guess a travel agent almost. Right, but a forerunner.

SPEAKER_00 29:49

Right, yes, yes, a forerunner, um, an official travel agent that's also very he goes before w the the royalty or the army or so when people see him, they say, Oh, there's an army coming. Yeah, or the king's coming.

SPEAKER_02 30:05

Exactly, exactly. And which is why the definition would eventually evolve to what we have, which is one that goes before and announces the approach of someone or something. Um so we're fairly clear that a harbinger is is a a person or event or thing that signals the approach of something else. So now the question is what's an omen? Well, once again, according to Google AI, who all you know like before, guided sources from Oxford languages, an omen is an event, an event regarded as a portent, meaning sign or warning of good or evil, with a secondary definition of an event with prophetic significance. The word omen is pulled directly from um, I guess more of a recent Latin omen, meaning foreboding or augury. And I think I I want to point this out specifically, the fact that augury is listed in multiple I I went to a lot of different etymology sources, and augury is listed multiple times in all these different sources, and it's interesting that it's listed because in ancient Rome, an augur was a religious official who observed natural signs, especially noting the behavior of birds, and would interpret these signs as an indication of divine approval or disapproval of a proposed action.

SPEAKER_00 31:32

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 31:32

So they would they would Excuse me, the you know, Roman politicians would propose an action, and then they would go to the augur, and depending on how the birds reacted, the birds interacted with things, he would determine whether or not the gods found this favorable or not.

SPEAKER_00 31:51

Or he'd say Mercury's gonna be in retrograde, so you don't want to do that.

SPEAKER_02 32:00

Uh in fact, so if we if we look at all this, and uh an omen is basically excuse me, I'm burping. An omen is basically an event we give we give meaning to. We look at a sign, and based on our own ideas or knowledge, we interpret that to mean something. So like astrology, it's it's an omen because we're reading the stars and divining what the future, uh, the future of what like a person will will be like, what their personality will be like, depending on what the stars look like when they were born. That's an omen. Um, but also if you look at you know daily astrology type things, it it determines what your mood and what other people's moods might be, depending on how the stars are. Um and you know, while astrology might be looked at as superstitious, we should also be very clear if you use the broad um definition of an omen, which is a perceivable sign of a future event. Right. There are a lot of scientific examples of omens as well. For example, a halo around the sun or a moon or or the moon uh indicating rain approaching. There's a scientific explanation for it, but it's an omen. It's a sign that there's a storm coming. There's also rapid cloud growth and cooling temperatures. Um, those are omens for severe weather coming. Uh rotating wall clouds indicate that a that a tornado is in the potential, very probable near future. Um and so now that we've talked about omens in science, are there any Harbringers in science?

SPEAKER_00 33:40

That's a that's a good question. You know, that there's a a song that you probably wouldn't know. And I think it was from like uh the 70s. Okay. Yeah. Maybe you're probably right though. I probably wouldn't know. It's called Wildfire. I've heard of the song.

SPEAKER_02 33:56

I don't know. I probably have heard it. I just it's been a long time.

SPEAKER_00 33:59

Okay, so it's it's about a a horse. And and in the song, he sings, By the dark of the moon I planted. But there again, uh dark of the moon was a superstition. You know, you plant by the dark of the moon because then there's no gravitational pull on them. So by the dark of the moon, okay.

SPEAKER_02 34:21

So so now it's it's things that were ancient omen or yeah, ancient omens that now we have a scientific explanation for. And there are examples of the opposite as well, but go ahead. Sorry, so sorry.

SPEAKER_00 34:32

So by the dark of the moon I planted, but there came an early snow. There's been a hoot owl how calling out from my window now for six nights in a row. She's coming from me, I know, and on wildflyer, we're both gonna go. So I think it was girlfriend horse got stuck in a snowstorm and both died. It was one of those die things. It sounds like a country song. No, no, no.

SPEAKER_02 34:58

It's my horse and my girlfriend.

SPEAKER_00 35:02

No, it was it was like a soft rubber.

SPEAKER_02 35:04

I believe you just I believe you. It just it sounds like it has a lot of the same common staples of a country song.

SPEAKER_00 35:10

There was a whole slew of uh I lost my girlfriend. Usually it's uh I lost my you know, my boyfriend, leader of the pack, I was dead, you know, or or uh the sweater one, you know. I lent her my sweater and then I found it on a grave. I mean, there was a whole lot of relationships with dead people kind of. Oh, gotcha.

SPEAKER_02 35:33

That's what we're talking about.

SPEAKER_00 35:33

Okay, so that kind of so wildfire was kind of Oh, so he's he's continuing to have this relationship with well, he knows that she's coming back. She went out with the horse, and there came an early snow, and the horse and she got lost in this blizzard, and they both died, and now he's alone in the cabin planting under the dark moon, and he's hearing the hoot owl, which he's assuming is her is snow saying you're gonna die soon, too.

SPEAKER_02 36:00

Oh, so he's gonna be seeing her.

SPEAKER_00 36:01

Okay, so he's he's gonna fly away on the dead horse.

SPEAKER_02 36:04

So he's interpreting the hoot owl as an omen of his own impending death.

SPEAKER_00 36:08

Boy, that was kind of long for me just but it is yeah, okay, yes.

SPEAKER_02 36:15

I and I like that. I like that. I mean it's very tragic, but it's kind of re it's it's reinterpreting tragedy as a positive thing. He wants to see her again. Right. You know, he wants to die. It's it's it's sad but beautiful and tragic. Um Harbingers and Science. Harbingers and science. Uh here's an example. It's a medical term called a prodrome, uh, which is an early symptom or set of symptoms that occur before the full onset of a disease or illness. So it's like yeah, it's it's you're these symptoms are showing themselves to you, basically announcing that, hey, you're sick, you're gonna get more sick. This is this is just you know and so it it's it's a more active thing as opposed to just an observation. Uh similarly, uh four shocks before an earthquake. So little little earthquakes are harbingers potentially of a bigger earthquake, uh either there or somewhere on the fault line. Right. Um but I think one of the best uh uh dis distinctions and depictions of an omen and a harbinger um are actually found in the New Testament in the Gospels specifically. If you wanna grab these ones.

SPEAKER_00 37:39

Oh, sure. Okay. In the Gospels, there's a lot of events that people look at that are the precursors to the main character of the New Testament, Jesus Christ. Before his birth, there was a significant before his birth, there was a significant astronomical event, the star. It served as a sign or omen that points the wise men to to find the king, to find the baby. John the Baptist, on the other hand, is a very definition of a harbinger. He's not a sign, he's a living herald who explicitly stated to be coming before and preparing the way and the people for Jesus and his ministry. Yeah. So we have both of those.

SPEAKER_02 38:25

Yeah, so so John the Baptist is a herald, and the star is an omen. Um there are a lot of examples of other heralds and omens in the book. Harbingers, not heralders. You're right, you're a herald and the herald is kind of a harbinger. Okay, I would say a herald is is an example of a harbinger, though I guess they serve similar but maybe slightly separate purposes. So you can see there's a lot of overlap, but there's also differences there as well between omens and harbingers.

SPEAKER_00 38:53

Yeah, so harbingers are more personal. It's looking for you, as we said, and an omen is just out there and we're looking at it, and we're um we're making the assumption. Right.

SPEAKER_02 39:04

So so for instance, based off of this definition, to me, the gray man might be considered more of an omen and less of a harbinger. Because they're not, it's it's there. If you see him, then you know that there's a storm coming, but he's not going out of his way to look for you necessarily by the beach.

SPEAKER_00 39:23

Unless it is one of those situations where you're walking down the beach and he appears in front of you, and then he is a harbinger because he is specifically warning you and saving your house.

SPEAKER_02 39:33

I still wonder that though, because it's it's still you're seeing something that's not actively I mean, he's he's showing itself to you. Right. But does that mean that he's going out of his way to warn you specifically? I don't know. Or or are you just seeing the gray man and now you're interpreting that as a sign that your house could potentially be saved from a hurricane? And so that and that's and that's that's some of the fun. Right, right, right. So that's silly. That's kind of where the mo the rest of our podcast is gonna be going. It's gonna be a fun hurricane.

SPEAKER_00 40:06

Harbinger or omen? You decide.

SPEAKER_02 40:09

Or both. Or both.

SPEAKER_00 40:10

Okay, so neither. Mark Twain. I'm gonna talk about garbingers or omens of uh Earth, of material things. Sure. Um, Mark Twain was born on November 30th, 1835, two weeks after um Haley's Comet came through.

SPEAKER_02 40:30

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 40:30

And Mark Twain would always say, I came in with Haley's Comet, and he said this in 1909. Uh it's coming again next year. The Almighty has said, no doubt, there are two unaccountable freaks. They came in together, they must go out together.

SPEAKER_02 40:45

I like that.

SPEAKER_00 40:46

He died on April 21st, 1910, one day after the comet once again reached its, they call it a perihelion. So it it must be the ape. Yeah. So, but I want to talk a little bit about then comets as omens slash and or harbingers.

SPEAKER_02 41:07

I feel like they're to me that reads more of an omen than uh than a harbinger, because everyone sees it, but and interpreted it in a specific way, and he was correct, which is kind of crazy.

SPEAKER_00 41:17

So comets were uh so first of all, I gotta say Ohio. Oh, oh. So a seven-ton meteor, um, which a meteor is a fragment of a comet. So I'm including meteor in the comet. Sure, sure. Comet thing.

SPEAKER_02 41:32

Giant um extraterrestrial rocks that fight from or near the sky.

SPEAKER_00 41:42

A seven-ton meteor exploded over northeast Ohio this week, on March 17th, 2026.

SPEAKER_02 41:51

That's that's dating the episode where because it's probably not, but okay, the week that we are recording.

SPEAKER_00 41:56

On March 17th, it did it. So, yeah, the week we're recording at nine o'clock in the morning, causing a bright daylight fireball and a loud sonic boom heard across the region, according to NASA officials. Interesting. The object, roughly six feet in diameter, broke up near Valley City, potentially leaving fragments in Medina County. And this is by the Akron Beacon Journal. So again, I gotta say, Ohio.

SPEAKER_02 42:24

Assuming you believe Ohio exists. I I I still have yet to be proven that it does, but you know.

SPEAKER_00 42:32

Have you never been when Mary lived in Dublin?

unknown 42:35

No.

SPEAKER_02 42:36

Did I? Okay. I've never I've I personally have never been to Ohio. Okay. Yeah. Well, we'll have to go to There's also a long-running internet trend or joke that Ohio doesn't exist. We yeah, there's a lot of people in the internet that that deny the existence of Ohio because it's just too crazy. It's just there's too many things that happen in Ohio. Ohio doesn't make sense. It's an anomaly, it doesn't exist. It was it's a fabrication by the government to keep the man down.

SPEAKER_00 43:02

We have somebody who likes Ohio, but he is an Ohio fan. Cedar Point's in Ohio. I know, right? Cedar Point, he was just saying Cedar Point, Cedar Point, King's King's Island.

SPEAKER_02 43:13

King's Island. They don't exist. They're fabrications made by the man.

SPEAKER_00 43:18

Okay, so in ancient and medieval belief, comets were widely seen as omens of disaster, war, or regime change. Um the Haley's comet first appeared in 1066. That same year, King Harold II died, and the Norman conquest began. Ooh. In 1910, Earth passed through a comet's tail, and scientists detected cyan cyanogen C Y A N O G E N. Cyanogen.

SPEAKER_02 43:52

I believe you, but let me find out.

SPEAKER_00 43:54

Um, it's not cyanide. Spell it one more time. C Y A N.

SPEAKER_02 43:59

I'm gonna first type. How do you say pronounce?

SPEAKER_00 44:03

I've been doing this a lot recently because we're gonna some of the things that I talk about how to pronounce C Y C Y A-N-O-G-E-N. Let's see what they say.

SPEAKER_02 44:20

Um cyanogen.

SPEAKER_00 44:26

I said it right. Cyanogen, yes. Okay, so the scientists detected cyanogen gas, and the public reaction was panic buying of gas masks, and somebody was selling anti-comet pills. Of course. On the internet, but there was no internet.

SPEAKER_02 44:43

Of course. The moment somebody sees an opportunity, that's right, like, I'm gonna make a supplement.

SPEAKER_00 44:49

We're gonna give you a supplement.

SPEAKER_02 44:51

The FDA can't regulate this supplement, boys.

SPEAKER_00 44:54

So then we have the Mark Twain thing, obviously. But then indigenous and cultural, cultural uh harbingers, the aboriginals believed in Australia that comets were associated with the people.

SPEAKER_02 45:08

I know I know what you mean. The Aborigine the Aboriginal tribes in in Australia. I just I thought the abor the Aboriginals believed in Australia.

SPEAKER_00 45:19

No, I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_02 45:20

I hope they did.

SPEAKER_00 45:21

They did, because they lived there. They lived there. The Aboriginal tribes in Australia believes that comets were associated with death, evil spirits, and sorcery. So are carbon are comets harbingers or are they omens?

SPEAKER_02 45:39

Again, I think that's that to me reads a lot stronger as an omen.

SPEAKER_00 45:43

I agree with that.

SPEAKER_02 45:44

Because yeah, it's an event in nature, which it seems like they're somewhat accurate omens. Like that does an omen can be accurate, you know, like like also the idea of the the full moon. Okay, good.

SPEAKER_00 45:57

I was just thinking that too.

SPEAKER_02 45:58

Yeah, it it can influence people, or it seems to, I guess, influence people.

SPEAKER_00 46:04

I think that there is enough anecdotal evidence. Uh the the word lunatics it comes from luna, meaning the moon, but there is enough anecdotal evidence from law enforcement officials and hospital people and teachers and teachers that the full moon does affect people. Yeah. I totally believe that. Whether it's the gravitational pull, whether whatever it is.

SPEAKER_02 46:26

That's the interesting thing, because I mean, I guess I don't know because science hasn't figured out why. And because of that, because science doesn't know why, they science is like it doesn't exist because it's it's a placebo effect. Even though the the the interesting thing is what I've seen is is I've um as people have talked about full moons affecting people's moods, often the conversation is man, my usually it's child. My child was very wild over the past weekend. They couldn't sleep, they were just out of control. And then somebody else would say, Well, it was a full moon during that time, and they go, Oh, that makes sense. So it's less of a it's a full moon, so I'm looking for the effect. Exactly. It's yeah, it's it's not you're not looking for it. It's more this is awful. This also happened to take place during a full moon.

SPEAKER_00 47:22

And I can tell you, I don't sleep well during full moons. And and I just sleep well, period. Okay, well, for me, it is specific. It's like, oh, I didn't sleep well. And then I look and it's like, oh wow, it was a full moon. So I do think that that happens.

SPEAKER_02 47:34

So yeah, I believe it.

SPEAKER_00 47:35

We're gonna segue now to okay. Yep, we're gonna do that to banshees. Yes. Is that okay? Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. You probably have I have a lot of information about banshees. So banshees are part of the the she that it's the the she is, which is the fae fairy, but the banshee has um a very specific job. The banshee foretells death. And generally Banshee. That's from W Gill and Little. Just like that. And um the Banshees are actually associated with certain families. Only certain families have the Banshees with them, and they are the O'Neills, the O'Brien's, the O'Connors, the O'Grady's, the O'Longs. So the O and Mac pattern um are kind of the old Gaelic families, which is of. Of, and Mac is son of. So dis O is descendant of, Mac is son of. So no O'Reilly's uh are Maybe O'Reilly.

SPEAKER_02 48:52

It's not mentioned in that specific because it seems to be there are specific families or clans that it's associated with. Because a potenti I my guess is that it's probably a potential I won't say royalty, but like a tribal leader.

SPEAKER_00 49:13

Well, but then they said over time banshee traditions were also reported in a few non-Gaelic families, especially those long established in Ireland, the Fitzgeralds.

SPEAKER_02 49:22

Well, and that's where harbingers sometimes become omens a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 49:27

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 49:28

Well, and and go ahead and reading it. I'll I'll if if I hear it.

SPEAKER_00 49:31

So the Fitzgeralds are of a Norman origin, and so the Banshee isn't strictly genet genetic, it might be tied to land, legacy, or status.

SPEAKER_02 49:41

Now, did the banshee present to that family specific or to like because that's because the harbinger, you know, implies that it's going to them specifically. That's what it sounds like. Okay, so so that family was The Fitzgeralds. Yeah. The Fitzgeralds had a Banshee that okay, okay.

SPEAKER_00 49:58

Okay, so it this is what a Banshee does. In these traditions, the Banshee doesn't cause death, doesn't harm anybody, uh, served as a messenger or a herald, as you said. Uh, the typical behavior is wailing or keening outside the home, appearing near windows, rivers, or trees, sometimes seen as a young woman, sometimes a veiled lady, or sometimes an old crone. Yep. And I think more often than not, it's an old crone.

SPEAKER_02 50:27

Yes. Generally speaking. Because I mean that's also a little bit scarier as well.

SPEAKER_00 50:31

And this is a uh encounter, if you don't mind, I'll read it, with one of uh the the O'Brien family. Okay. This is an ancient encounter that they had. It was late when the sound came, just past midnight, when the house had gone still. At first they thought it was the wind coming off the fields, but the sound didn't move. It stayed low, rising, then breaking into something that was unmistakably a woman's cry not shouting, not screaming, keening. Mrs. O'Brien was the first to say it out loud. That's no wind. The others heard it then, clearer now. Right outside the window, one of the sons pulled back the curtain and there she was a woman in grey, her hair hanging long and dark, her face turned slightly away, as if she didn't want to be seen. But her mouth her mouth was open and that terrible, mournful cry. He let the curtain fall. No one spoke after that. The sound faded slowly, as if it were being carried off across the fields. By morning, the message arrived that Mr. O'Brien's brother was gone in the night, and no one in the house ever again said that the banshee was just a story.

SPEAKER_02 52:12

So there are a couple of interesting things in that story. First of all, creepy. Creepy terrifying. I mean, well, and and I love so keening is one of those interesting terms and verbs. We don't really use it as much in in it's not something in in most modern societies.

SPEAKER_00 52:32

We now say ugly crying instead of keening.

SPEAKER_02 52:35

Right, yeah, because and but keening in in a lot of especially more ancient cultures, um, was was I won't say it was performative necessarily, but it was expected. Nowadays it's like, you know, when during during funerals and things like that, we're expected to put on a uh a brave face. You know, we're not really we're not supposed to cry as much. We we want to be comforting towards especially depending on the culture, because I've been to I'm talking about sorry, I'm talking about like more uh an American, Western American, you know white.

SPEAKER_00 53:09

Because I have been to some uh African American funerals where Keening was um appropriate. I mean everybody the emotions were allowed, unlike us who who have to pretend right like nothing affects us.

SPEAKER_02 53:27

I will say, you know, on a similar but but side tangent, I think that's just I think a cultural difference between, you know, white America versus African America. Right. Uh because it's it's very interesting that as a gross generalization. A gross generalization, typically African American groups especially are a lot more emotive than, you know, I one of some of the best audiences that I've ever performed in front of. I I have um I I do acting. I love I love to act. Uh I love you know going on to to live stage performances. And there was one of the performances that I did, and this was when I was in middle school, um, was for A Raisin in the Sun. I was Mr. Linder. Because, you know, there are very few roles in that show that a white person can perform. But it was one of the it was one of the most emotive audiences I have still to this day I have ever performed for. When I said certain things, and it's funny because they had to, you know, I was I was very young, very naive. Um my director uh had to teach me how to say things in a more racist kind of way. Because she's like, you know, because there are certain like yeah, I I I'd never heard of the the the phrase, you know, you people use in a derogative way before. Okay. I was I was saying it, you know, like, oh, you know, just oh you people need to do this and this and this. You know, I wasn't I wasn't saying it like you people and she was like, no, no, no, you need to you need to be more aggressive with yeah, you know, you you it's not you people as in you know everyone here, it's you people as in you're different than me. And I was like, oh, okay. And I knew that that had worked because on stage, when I especially when I use that term, you know, you people, the audience was it was a it was a wave of mmm, mmm mmm, mmm. And you know, it's it's it's just it's very interesting. So I I do that makes a lot of sense that Keening is is more appropriate in those. I feel like white America takes a lot of our cues from uh the classic, and I I think we're more emotive than this, but the the classic portrayal of of English aristocracy. Yes, yes, where you know we have to stiff upper lip and all that.

SPEAKER_00 55:55

Exactly. Yes, yes, yes.

SPEAKER_02 55:57

We can't we can't show any emotion. Now Americans show a lot more emotion than that, typically speaking, but we generally only show positive emotion.

SPEAKER_00 56:07

Right.

SPEAKER_02 56:07

We don't like to show negative. That's why, you know, when when uh in comedies, you're not gonna hear the mmm, but you're gonna hear a lot more laughter from white audiences, because white audiences want to portray that that happy, but when bad things happen, they become quiet. Again, gross generalization, generally speaking.

SPEAKER_00 56:27

Okay, so let's bring it up. Going back to Keening. Yes. Or or to Banshees. Debanshees. So there's also um there's uh several other cultures that have um the banshee-like thing. I know you've got a couple. One that I found was somebody somebody called a keenak or a queenak, and that is a Scottish parallel. And she, but the difference between um her, she's a weeping spirit who cries to foretell death or disaster, but she's not seen, she's just heard.

SPEAKER_02 57:06

So it's interesting that you say that because and and that's I guess when I was gonna say where that's where the difference between like an omen versus uh uh uh a harbinger comes in, because the banshee, there's tales of that as well, right? Where they don't see the banshee, the banshee doesn't come to them, but they hear the wailing of the banshee over the winds, which kind of becomes more of an omen. You know, somebody it's gone to somebody. Right.

SPEAKER_00 57:34

So the people in the town would could hear the banshees cry. Exactly. But the people in the house could see her. Exactly. So for her, she's the harbinger for them in the house, she's a harbinger. But but for the people in the town town, she's an omen.

SPEAKER_02 57:46

She's an omen. That that yeah, someone someone from the O'Brien family has passed.

SPEAKER_00 57:52

Yes, or will or will pass. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 57:54

Yeah, we'll be passing that diamond.

SPEAKER_00 57:55

So yeah, so the kiniac, uh, the sound carries across Glens Hills and open highland spaces, and it short it shortly after you hear that sound, uh, death occurs or a tragic event unfolds. And and the most famous is the massacre of Glencoe in 1692. It says tradition holds that keening was heard before the massacre, interpreted later as a warning of the slaughter of the McDonald clan.

SPEAKER_02 58:27

Interesting. So yeah. So really old McDonald did used to have a farm. Not anymore.

SPEAKER_00 58:36

Not anymore. Yeah. I'm sure I'm don't mess with the McDonald clan. No, I have there.

SPEAKER_02 58:40

There are a couple of McDonald's in our local community who I would not want to mess with. They're they're they're a really strong family.

SPEAKER_00 58:46

Okay, so what are some of the banshee likes that you have?

SPEAKER_02 58:50

Yeah, because you know, there's she mentioned a Scottish one. There's there's a lot of different Banshee type Harbinger like um in in um Scottish folklore, Welsh folklore. I'm gonna I'm gonna go to the um to the Scottish, another Scottish one. It's a different, similar but different. It's the um the bania, uh, which is spelled like bean uh N-I-G-H-E. Bin-Y. Yeah, biny, but it's ban banya. That's what that's at least when I googled it, that's what they said it was. I could be wrong. So in this so the the yeah, the the the benia is related to the Irish banshee, and also uh according to this, has a French equivalent, which I'm not gonna try to pronounce that because um I'm not very good at the French accent. Uh something like Les Lavendeurs, maybe something like that. That sounds good. Uh sounds good, could be wrong. Um she is seen wandering near streams and pools where she washes the blood-stained clothes of those who are about to die. Not necessarily wailing, it's it's an omen. I I consider this more of an omen because you approach her. You have to be near the Highland streams. Okay, and you approach her. Um, but I guess she could be considered a harbinger because she's washing your clothes or whoever's gonna die, exactly. And it's and they're blood-stained clothes, um, which is terrifying. Yeah. Uh so yeah, she's okay, so yeah, she's seen as an omen of death just like the Banshee. The legend has it that the Banya is the spirit of a woman who has died in childbirth and is cursed to carry out her role until the day her life would have normally ended, which is very tragic. Um also, she you know, you talked about how the Banshee is can be uh a young woman, can be an old woman. The the the Bania is not a young, beautiful woman. She is always so she's described as a small and very ugly woman with a hooked nose and one large nostril. She has a large protruding tooth, webbed feet, and long hanging breasts. Uh so you she's already gonna be scary enough to approach, especially at night by a stream. But then she's like I said, uh like we've mentioned, she's washing blood-stained clothes of someone that you could potentially know. That doesn't sound uh great to me personally. That sounds a little scary.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:39

So while we're still talking about women and um a lot of women are right, harbingers. Harbingers. So there's a group called the White Ladies. Uh I mean, they're each individual white ladies, but there's a so yeah, the white lady is is a recurring figure across uh they're saying European folklore, but I know that it's it's South America, it's it's I mean, yeah, because I guess you could you could say if Spain is considered a European culture, it could have been brought over though some of the research that I've done that is not necessarily the case.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:18

Right. And we'll we'll you know, once it gets there, we we'll talk about it.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:22

So a woman in white, often in flowing or old-fashioned clothing, appears on roads in castles, near bridges or water, usually tied to water. A lot of water. Yes, often coming out of the water, as I recall, usually tied to tragedy, betrayal, or death. Um so it it it's not uh she could be considered a ghost, um, but the white lady often appears before something happens, which switches her from like ghost into harbinger territor territory. Right. Um the roadside white lady, it's a common account. A driver sees a woman in white on a dark road. She may cross suddenly, she may stand silently, or appear briefly in the headlights. Then a crash occurs, or the driver narrowly avoids a crash. So it's a warning, potentially a warning manifestation tied to danger ahead. Or a cause.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:21

Or a cause of a which if it's a cause, I feel like that's no longer a harbinger.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:25

No, that's a bad person. Yeah, that's just a jerk. Yeah, the jerky ghost.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:29

Yeah, neener, neener. That's right. Uh that's so it's interesting because you know, there are also other white ladies. Right. Uh I this sounds sounds sounds like an interesting uh club. Um but there's uh there are other white ladies that aren't necessarily associated, like for instance, Resurrection Mary. It's true. Is you know, she has a lot of those same characteristics, but she's not a harbinger.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:53

And I don't think she's dressed in white. She's dressed- but she was. No, she is dressed in the ball gown that she wore.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:58

Uh I always pictured that as as a white ball gown. Yeah. No, I don't think it's a good idea. Which I guess you wouldn't necessarily wear a white ball gown unless, you know, you're gonna get married in a ball gown.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:07

Right. Yeah. It was from I think she's dressed in what she was dressed. I'm gonna go. Okay, so I'll continue. I believe it, but I'm not sure. There's castle white ladies. In older European traditions, Germany, Ireland, Scotland, a white lady appears inside a castle or estate, seen by servants and family members shortly after a death occurs in the household. She doesn't interact with anybody, she just appears and is seen. And then bridge and water apparations, another recurring pattern. The white lady appears near rivers, bridges, and lakes. And you go ahead, because I have to find something.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:44

So let's see. I'm trying to find I did I'm on Wikipedia, so take this source as as credible as you believe Wikipedia to be. This young woman is dressed somewhat formally in a white party dress and is said to have light blonde hair and blue eyes. So she is wearing a white party dress.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:03

Okay. Oh, white party dress. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:06

So she could be considered. But she's she's a maybe she maybe because she's considered a vanishing hitchhiker. Okay. That does that that puts her in a different kind of classification than what the Harbinger white lady.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:19

And she's not she's not um forecasting, she's not predicting something.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:24

She's just getting a ride. She's getting a ride from from one end of resurrection uh cemetery to the other.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:30

So the the reoccurring pattern, the rivers, bridges, and lakes white lady, when you you see her, a drowning or an accident or a disappearance happens. And the folklore with her is it's often tied to her own past death, but her reappearance signals new tragedy. Hmm.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:50

So So we I I'm gonna go to this one because you go right ahead. You mentioned it. I'm gonna eventually come back to some of the other ones, potentially, but um Uh you mentioned this this trope, and then we kind of talked about we we danced around the idea of La Lirona, which you've described essentially. La Liona is uh is primarily Mexican slash Hispanic folklore of the same exact thing. Uh uh a woman wearing white. Let's see, uh there are a lot of different uh stories um of that, but but basically it's yeah, La Ron La Yaronia. Man, this it's hard because it's right, you gotta roll the tongue with the R. Okay. But I I'm not very good at rolling the tongue. But the double L is ya, so it's Yaronia.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:41

That would that was good.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:42

Thank you. Well, I'm just gonna stop then. Okay, and uh literally means the weeping woman, beautiful. I I think she typically, at least my mind, she she generally wears white. Okay. Let's see. Um I I did just kind of print off an article, so I'm just kind of looking through to find little bits that I feel like can describe these a lot of some of these are explanations of where she kind of came from. Often it's it's the the stories are similar to kind of what you said. It's a woman who has has essentially drowned her children.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:16

Some kind of tragic death.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:17

Yeah, yes. Yeah, I mean, I know this this one, one of the the big ones that kind of recurring stories that I've heard is that it's a woman who, for some reason, maybe she was cheated on by her husband, or something else happened where she kind of snaps, yeah, and she takes her children into a body of water. Yes, and you know, she she dies with them. Right. And because of that anger, and also because of of the way that her spirit was when she died, she stays and she, whether or not she's a harbinger or she causes as well.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:56

See, and that's I've always about her, I've always read that she is uh an evil uh entity that tries to cause rather than be a harbinger and say, hey, something's gonna happen, she is a I'm gonna make something happen to you kind of thing.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:13

Which is interesting because there are some researchers. Yeah, um, there are some researchers who believe that the La Yorana legend actually comes from the um Siwa Si Wakotl. Siwakotl. Uh thank you. I I I put a pronunciation down there. I could be wrong again. Um come at me. No, uh, I'm kidding. Don't please don't. I'm very sensitive. But um, so it that is is uh a native um a native, I think, goddess of the Aztecs. Oh, okay. Uh yes, one of the most important goddesses of the Aztecs. So she's associated with small children. Okay. And a crib or cradle tends to be one of one of the the things that she's associated with.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:04

So how did that get changed to somebody who drowned her drowned in the children? Well, I'm sure it's it's just killed her children.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:09

It's it's I'm guessing it's the image that came first, and then they had to find a story to match it. That would be my guess. But um, so here's here's one uh description and uh in uh I'm not gonna try to pronounce his name. Um well I am gonna try to pronounce his name. Uh Sahagans, potentially, but it doesn't sound Spanish. Okay. But it he he he wrote a book about a lot of different things, but he describes um Siebel Cottle. He says, quote, and they also say she carries a crib with her, as someone would who carried her child in it, and she goes to the market among the other women, and disappearing, she would leave behind the crib. When the other women discovered that the crib had been forgotten there, they would look to see what was inside. And there would be a flint, like iron, of the rough kind with which they killed those they sacrificed. By this they understood it was Siwokadl who had left it there. So I I guess that could be potentially where some of that, I guess, infantide parallels coming from, maybe a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:21

Maybe because they sacrificed her baby, and that's why she has that.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:24

Right, well, she's she's a goddess, so I think more of she the I maybe the implication is that either she sacrificed her child to herself, or I don't know exactly how sacrificing to the to the gods and goddesses of the Aztec world worked necessarily. But um so later on, um uh later on in the same book or or or in a similar book, um uh it's written in this in his time it came to pass that um the demon that in the uh that the demon that in the form of a woman, so he's talking about Sibokadl, um walked and appeared by day and by night and was called Siakadl, ate a small boy who was in his cradle in the town of ate a small boy? Ate a small boy in the town of Azka Potzilko. Is a Potzelko. That sounds good. Sure, we'll go with that. Um so yeah, I guess maybe that's the association then. So so maybe it became actually sounds like a little less gruesome as time went on. Instead of eating a child eating children, which I guess that's what if you're sacrificing are you're sacrificing, yeah, uh people to to gods and goddesses. What do you think they're gonna what do you think those gods and goddesses are gonna do with the people who are sacrificing? I mean, uh I guess makes sense, but I guess then that idea maybe could have turned into La Girona, which is a similarly an uh emphaside type Harbinger who instead killed her own children for due to some madness, I guess. Um so yeah, a lot of scholars believe that there are parallels. Um, but I guess the idea is that if you see her, then there's a good chance that somebody might be sacrificed or your child might perish tragically. Oh, yeah, but I don't know if that's I mean, I guess I don't I don't know if that's necessarily a harbinger either, though, or an omen. Because I mean she if she's going in there with the cradle, I I know, because she's actually also actively laying putting the cradle there. So I guess it could be both. I think maybe we could interpret that one as both.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:45

Okay, I'm good with that. So I was thinking, let's move into more modern day or and more people. So I've got some, and it's very interesting because I never thought of these as harbingers, but let me read you some. These are Reddit um experiences. Um, so the first one. So I worked as a cardiac nurse. One day a patient died. Me and my colleagues were waiting for his family to visit and say their goodbye. On the phone, they said they wanted to talk to me when they arrived. Anyway, fast forward, I asked my colleague if they had arrived. She said she wasn't sure. So we both looked through the window. Um, we could see the end of the bed as the curtains were pulled and saw a man in a black trench coat and top hat. We could only see his back. She apologized and said it must be his brother. So we went straight in together and there was no one else there. Freaky. Many more stuff has happened over the years, but that still freaks me out. And I think um I started to look into the Hat Man.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:52

It sounds like there's a lot of Hat Man stories, but we could probably do that as a different Yeah, because that that almost starts to get into the round uh realm of shadow people's sleep paralysis. Right and yeah, because the Hat Man is heavily associated with that. But it's interesting though that they saw it while they were not having uh sleep paralysis.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:09

Right, they were up and watching. Yeah. No, I've seen as I was looking into it, there's a lot of Hat Man people up and looking in Hat Man soap. But this is uh the thing at the foot of the bed. A user described waking up in the middle of the night to see a figure standing at the foot of their bed, not moving, not breathing, just watch it, watching. They said it wasn't sleep paralysis. They could sit up, move, speak, but the figure did not react. Uh it felt like it wasn't there for me, like it was waiting. The next morning they got a call. A close family member had died during the exact same time they woke up.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:48

I don't I think I've shared this with you. That's similar but different because it wasn't a harbinger for me. But man, the imagery of something at the foot of the bed, yeah um, where I could move as something I don't I I experienced that here. Um actually in the same room that I'm in right now. Okay. Um, but you know, the it was angled slightly differently. The foot of the bed was towards the direction of the door.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:16

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:17

And I remember when I, you know, I was I don't remember exactly how old I was, but I was single digits. Right. And I was I wasn't yet asleep. But it was pretty late at night. I I think I've always had a hard time falling asleep, maybe. I don't know exactly. But I remember not being fully asleep, trying to trying to fall asleep, and then looking at the foot of my bed. It wasn't a shadow person though, because it was it was a silhouette. It didn't have many distinguishing facial features, but it was white.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:48

Interesting.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:48

It was like very, yeah, I I guess it could be either opaque or some of the some of the features were defined by shadow. So it was like it I guess it was, you know, maybe contortion with with you know some some black, but it was it was basically super pale white. And I remember it was, like I said, I was at the foot of my bed, but it wasn't standing like his. It was actually kind of started out, you know, level with uh it was like crouching a little bit, level with the that would creep me out, yeah. Well, and and I remember the face started out like a normal face, and then it just it slowly morphed and disfigured into just I don't I just I don't remember exactly. I have vague, I have a vague recollection of of what it the general thing it it it started to morph. I don't I can't fully recall it anymore, except the beginning part. And I remember being terrified and I I'm pretty sure I actually I called you know out. I called out for for you specifically because but on you know, we're on opposite sides of the house. Right. Uh Katie was the one that actually, you know, they're right next to me at the time. And she she came in. But but the fact that I could scream and call out.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:06

So it wasn't sleep paralysis.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:07

It wasn't sleep paralysis. I was also, I remember I was holding the blankets and I was like, you know, pulling it closer to me. Um yeah, so it and and that's one of those it it's one of those events that I remember every once in a while. Uh triggered, yeah. Yeah, but then I forget until somebody triggers. And it's not like I'm I, you know, it's I don't think it's traumatizing necessarily. I mean, maybe, depending on who you talk to, but like I yeah, it's not something I'm actively trying to repress, I just forget. Yeah. And then stories like that remind me.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:37

You know, that's interesting because that room ended up being for a little bit my office. And I remember it just when dad and I were empty nesters for a while. And um my desk was probably where your your bed was. And I remember having the door open and I was writing, and you know that, you know, when somebody's watching you write, they're standing and why and I hate that. And you feel it's like, and I'm trying to write it's more when I'm editing.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:06

I don't want people to see because it's not it's not finished yet. Isn't that the look?

SPEAKER_00 1:18:09

Well, and that's it, and I'm trying to write, and and somebody's watching me, but they're invisible. Yeah, and so I turned to the doorway and I said, I am trying to write here.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:18

Well, and that I think that's your first mistake. You have your back towards the door.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:23

No, it was my side. It was like so I was facing the back window, the back of the house. So the door was to my left.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:30

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:31

And the door was open, and I'm writing, and it felt like somebody was like leaning against the door. I'm sorry, I'm moving away from the microphone. Leaning against the door jam, just kind of watching me. Interesting. It's like, don't you have anything to don't you have somebody to scare?

SPEAKER_02 1:18:44

Yeah, don't you have something to do with your afterlife?

SPEAKER_00 1:18:45

Come on.

unknown 1:18:46

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:46

And so leave it alone. I did. I asked it to leave because I was trying to write, and it did. I could feel immediately like it was gone away.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:54

But the interesting thing about both these experiences as well as as these stories, I mean, I guess maybe these stories are more harbigures. These ones are definitely not.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:00

No, those were just, you know, but we're just ADD.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:03

Yeah, but but but that though, it's interesting. I I mean that Reddit one, I and also the Hat Man, did they say something tragic?

SPEAKER_00 1:19:11

Yes happened. Well, one one that somebody had just died. The next one's I feel like there was a call the next day that it happened at the same time.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:19

Because that one feels more of a Harbinger. The other, the Hat Man one feels more like a I guess I I don't know if it's an omen necessarily, because I don't know what it would be an omen of if they already know the person's past.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:33

Okay, so here's another. A hospice worker describes sitting with a patient in their final hours. The room was quiet, still. Then a shadow moved across the wall, not cast by anything. It moved against the light, slowly, purposefully. The patient who had been unresponsive suddenly opened their eyes, focused on the same spot, and then passed. Um, I guess that one as well, then.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:07

Is that something coming to to carry them home? To carry them home.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:11

Somebody said uh they were sitting in beside their grandfather in hospice. The room had been quiet for hours, machines humming, nothing unusual. Then something changed. The air felt occupied, not colder, not warmer, just full. They said it felt like somebody had entered the room, but no door opened. They looked towards the corner and for a split second they saw something darker than the shadows, not a shape, not a person, just absence. The grandfather Yes. The grandfather took one breath and didn't take another.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:49

Again, I so so it's interesting. You bring these you bring these up. I'm gonna go back a little bit back to Breton. Okay. Um there are two different English Harbingers. I don't know if I classify these as harbingers necessarily though, but we'll we'll see. We'll see. The first one is the uh the Anku. Okay. Which the Anku is is essentially what we think of when we think of the Grim Reaper. Oh, okay. Servant of Death in Breton, Cornish, um, an Anko, uh, an Ankow in Cornish and Welsh. Um Ionga, I think. I don't know if I pronounced that I don't think I did pronounce that correctly, because Welsh is Welsh is wild. Anyway, Anku appears as a man or skeleton wearing a black robe and a large hat that conceals his face or on occasion simply as a shadow. He wields a scythe and is said to sit atop a cart for collecting the dead, or drive a large black coach, pulled by four black horses and accompanied by two ghostly figures on foot.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:04

And it's called there's an Irish word for it, the coach of something, because it was in Gar Darby O'Gill. Death Coach. The death coach.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:11

So that's another one. Okay. Um the death coach, which, yeah, there's there's a lot of similarities between these. The death coach is part of folklore, uh, of the folklore of Northwestern Europe. It's a particularly strong in Ireland. Okay. Where it is known as the Okay, it's got a uh Irish pronunciation guide here. Um that's not very helpful. Umestbier, sure. Also meaning silent coach, but can also be found in stories from British and American culture. It is usually depicted as a black coach being driven or led by a Dulahan. Or Dulahan, Dulahan, I think. Okay, which a Dulahan is is essentially a headless horseman type person. But in this case, it's a it's a headless coach driver. Um, according to the legend, the sight or sound of the coach is the harbinger of death. It warns of imminent death to either oneself or a close relative. In Ireland, in particular, the death coach is seen as a signifier of the inevitability of death. As the belief goes, once it has come to earth, it can never return empty.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:23

Right. Again, Darw Gill. See, that's a documentary. It's not really a Disney show.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:28

It's a documentary. Documentary uh starring Sean Connery. Very young Sean Connery.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:33

Yeah, I've I think it's very interesting that we have examples throughout the ages of shadowy figures that appear just before death.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:45

Because yeah, I mean to me, because I personally I don't find I've never thought of the Grim Reaper, or probably in this case, um uh the the Anka as a harbinger necessarily, not to the person who's dying. Right. To me, I always consider that to be more of somebody who's coming in to guide them to the other the other world. That being said, if their shadow is seen, it could be seen like some of these stories, right? You know, assuming that is something that's like the the on uh the the ankle or or something like that, that could be seen then since it's not necessarily for them, less as a harbinger, more of like an omen.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:24

Exactly. And and then for the nurse, it's an omen. Yeah, that the that the person's there's one more story, and then I think we're we're about at time.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:32

How how are we running? An hour twenty-five. Okay, yeah, we're we're running pretty short on time.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:37

So I want to uh do read this one example. Um in a 2015 TED talk, Dr. Christopher Kerr, CEO of the Center for Hospice and Palliative Care, explained his own awakening to the topic as a relatively new doctor of hospice patients in 1999. He advised a nurse that a terminally ill patient still had quality time ahead if given um IV antibiotics and other fluids. When the experienced nurse, Nancy, suggested otherwise he asked why. She said, because he's seeing his deceased mother. Dr. Kerr related what Nancy knew was that Tom's end-of-life experiences had meaning. They were significant. And um we could go, and we we probably should. We there's there's so many interesting stories about end of life, about people seeing relatives. Yes, and once those conversations go on, healthcare professionals realize that even people who might not be religious realize that once that kind of thing starts happening, the end is soon. Yes, yeah, and so and and you know, often you think of a harbinger as something evil, right? But but these people, yeah, these people look look forward to and they laugh. There's one story about somebody laughing because they were telling they were having such a good time, and this person hadn't he hadn't been, he was in a coma, suddenly woke up and he's laughing about the good time that he's having with all of these people, and he soon passed right after that.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:26

So um and and you know, I mean, because yeah, we we there are a lot more omens. Um, I mean, even in or not omens, uh harbingers. Um even in American folklore and everything, I mean the Mothman is considered a harbinger. That's true, because of the the Point Pleasant situation. You know, either a harbinger or some people consider maybe the the the the cause. I don't think necessarily the cause, but you know, anyway. But you're right. I mean, when you look at when you look at harbingers, I mean the really interesting thing about harbingers is that they're not inherently negative or evil. It's a warning, sure. Or or maybe maybe an announcement. Announcement, a preparation. Yeah. Time to prepare. Yes. And I guess it depends on what your what your interpretation of of that preparation is. Yes. You know, if if you fear death, then yeah, seeing the groom reaper might be a little scary.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:20

But if you're ready to go, I'm thinking even if I'm not fearing death, seeing the groom reaper might be a little bit scary for me.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:26

I just the the scythe is a little intimidating.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:29

I I'll I'll I'll let you that. They're willing to go out and garden, you know, take care of those weeds in the garden. That's why they have the scythe.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:36

The idea is that, you know, it's time to harvest. Your soul.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:39

Oh, I love that.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:40

Your soul is is ready and it's time to harvest. Yeah. Time to time to bring you back because, you know, you're ripe. You're right. You've ripened enough. And so, you know, it's that I think is the entire idea of it being it could have been any kind of sharp instrument. Right. But it's a scythe because of that, I think. Um and so you know, it's it really depends on if you really do feel like your life is ripe, if you've lived a good life. And so, you know, I guess this is one of those fun ones that we could take end on a on a positive call to action, which is always try to live your life in a way that will make it feel ripe at the end, make you feel like when the harbinger for you comes, whether that's you know, hopefully it's not the Grim Reaper because that is a little scary, but more like a a a loved one who is coming to to, you know, bring you back. Um, you know, try to try to live your life so that when that happens, it's less of a of a fear and more of an exciting embrace to see your loved ones again.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:46

And hopefully your harbingers and your omens are gonna be more like the Robin of Spring and uh the rainbow of good luck and all of those really good positive things. So that's what we're hoping.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:58

That's that's fair too, because there are plenty of positive harbingers. Angels could be considered harbing. Maybe we can talk about those guys. Yeah. There are a lot of good positive harbingers out there.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:08

So think about those.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:09

And again, thanks for joining us. Be our harbingers, if you wouldn't mind. Um, let your friends know about this fun podcast slash show. You know, whether you're watching this on YouTube or Spotify or uh Apple Podcast or whatever you're listening to, go ahead and let let them know how you think of us. Write a comment, follow, like, subscribe, do all of those things that make the algorithms happy. Um, because if the algorithms are happy, we're happy and you're happy.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:42

Hopefully.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:42

Hopefully.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:43

All right, have a good day.