Should Christians cut ties with toxic relationships—or always keep the door open

Forgiveness is biblical—but what about boundaries?

We’ve all been there: relationships that slowly turn toxic, draining, or even unsafe. As Christians, we’re taught to forgive, reconcile, and love like Jesus—but does that mean we’re required to keep everyone in our lives no matter the cost?

Is it ever okay to step away from a toxic relationship? What if the person is a parent, child, or someone we don’t feel safe around? Where does the Bible actually talk about boundaries, and how do we balance grace with wisdom?
In this episode, the Three Chicks wrestle with these hard questions, exploring what Scripture really says about forgiveness, reconciliation, and healthy relationships.

Join the conversation as they discuss how to honor Jesus’ words without sacrificing emotional, spiritual, or physical well-being—and how to set godly boundaries that reflect both love and truth.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:05

Welcome to Three Tricks in the Bible, where we did get the easy answers, roll up our sleeves, and wrestle with the hard stuff in Scripture. We're talking about the real questions, the messy part, and what it looks like to follow Jesus. No fences, no filters, just three women chasing after truth, beauty, and the wild, unashamable price. We are so glad that you've joined us today.

SPEAKER_02 0:36

Today we have chosen to talk about the question: should Christians cut ties with toxic relationships, obviously with people who create toxic relationships, or always keep the door open. That's what we're going to be discussing. We don't even pretend to have all the answers. Like nobody here is a licensed mental health person. Nobody here pretends to be an expert in relationships, but we're going to go at this from our life experience, from our understanding of the Bible. And uh and we have a lot of experience with this. So in some of it's some of us here today have very personal experience with this. So we've wrestled with it from all angles. So, you know, we we have a faith in Christ that is built on a foundation of forgiveness, of a ministry of reconciliation and loving the unlovable. We are called to love even our enemies. So, in light of that, is it ever okay, in your understanding, your experience, to cut ties with people who have created toxic or, you know, like, and I guess what we could say, like, let's talk a little bit about how we how each of us defines toxic relationships. Um, you know, or should we always keep the door open, or is that uh like a is it not an either or? Is it a both and? So um anybody have a wanna like eager to jump right in on that?

SPEAKER_03 2:13

Or I don't know about eager, but go ahead, Julie.

SPEAKER_05 2:21

I guess I will.

SPEAKER_00 2:26

All right, so um this is Leslie Vernick, she's a wonderful author, and uh has actually a book called Um The Emotionally Destructive Relationship. And um I use it all the time, not for myself, but you know, for people I counsel. But anyway, uh pervasive and repetitive patterns of actions and attitudes that result in tearing someone down or inhibiting a person's growth, often accompanied by a lack of awareness, a lack of remorse, and a lack of change.

unknown 3:01

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 3:02

Yeah, I like that.

SPEAKER_00 3:03

But I think the key thing there is pattern and then the tearing down.

SPEAKER_02 3:08

Yeah, I mean, I think that the and they my I worked with someone once who talked about um unreasonable people.

SPEAKER_00 3:15

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 3:15

People with a certain level, you know, there are some people who are unreasonable, but but they have a certain amount of self-awareness, they're able to own their, you know, at times they're able to own their behavior, they apologize, you know, reconcile. But then there's a level of unreasonableness where they're not aware and they continue in their unreasonableness, no matter how many times you try to talk through it. Um, and then there's a level of unreasonableness that's actually unsafe. And that would be like you know, you know, so that would constitute abusive relationships that are, you know, like I think toxic sort of is the step before abuse, and then it it includes abuse, abusive relationships, certainly accused those relationships where the power structure is completely out of control and someone's being physically hurt or held emotionally hostage. You know, and it can have any spiritual abuse too.

SPEAKER_03 4:14

Yeah, definitely. I would definitely say both of those are good uh definitions of it. Sometimes I wonder though who get our um psychology enters into Christianity and um you know these boundary things. I have to have a boundary for everything. Well I wonder yes, never be abused, never, never, never um Jesus wouldn't want me to be abused. But I wonder also um if we put these words like boundaries and toxic in to uh make us not want to deal with the situation instead, you know. I I just I'm gonna sort of set up a boundary. I mean I don't want to deal with this. I don't want to have to deal with this person or you or me, I mean so it my honestly, ladies, this is tough for me. This subject is tough for me, so I'm gonna have to just um tell you from feeling if I was counseling on a person as a pastor, and it's not really counseling, so I'm not a counselor, not a licensed counselor, but as pastoral talking like so I can see a situation for them, but for me, I have a really hard time seeing and delineating um a line, you know, and I constantly say, Okay, well, is this about me not wanting to die to myself and my you know self-centeredness? Or is this me wanting to honor God? Is this me people pleasing? Is it you know, so it's just I'm constantly having to ask myself that and I haven't got the answer yet. Yes, I do believe Jesus doesn't want us to be abused ever. Um, I believe he set boundaries. Now, I can love my enemy really well, but when it comes to say my family or something like that, or someone I love, it's really hard. It's really hard.

SPEAKER_04 6:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:17

Yeah, I think that's I think that most of us, uh, I've spent most of my life probably with not the greatest boundaries because like I'm like an all-in with Jesus girl, like I think both of you are. And so my, you know, that got kind of mixed up with some dysfunction in my birth family. And I just was like, you know, like I saw a lot of leaving, a lot of leaving over foolishness, a lot of leaving jobs or churches or relationships over nothing. And so I was like always gonna be the girl that stayed. I was gonna be the one that loved. And, you know, like I was like, oh, I'm it. I'm like your Peter, you know, I'm gonna be there. And um, you know, what while and I do believe that for the most part, that is what the church is called to do, to stick with people, to work through things. Um, marriages can go through horrendously hard times and still come out on the other side. And we we need to talk about that more. But I did have to learn at some point, like, oh, okay, see, like that person is actually being abusive to me, or that, you know, not my husband at all. My husband has never been abusive, but you know, in in you know, a couple of unhealthy power relationships, like, no, that's abusive. And um, you know, I need to, you know, at least put up like here, here's here's like I'm you know, be willing to say, you know, I'm not gonna put up with talk like that. And you know, even working with families, I worked with a lot of families in crisis, families that come from all kinds of, you know, from I sat in million-dollar homes and I sat in affordable housing. And there were times when I'd have to say, see, if you continue to talk to me that way or to shout that way, I will have to leave. I'll come back, but I that's not how we're gonna, I can't receive what you're saying the way that you're shouting and swearing at. You know, like so, you know, I learned to set those kind of boundaries. I didn't cut people off. But yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:28

And there is a scale. You know, you've got your you you start over here, using the other hand. Um, and you know, it's it's it's it happens occasionally, it's annoying. And then, you know, it gets to the point where, okay, something's gotta happen because this is really, really bad. And then to the point where, you know, the relationship is over. Uh so it's a spectrum. And so, you know, but so we have to make sure we're not overreacting to something, um, which it is possible, especially if it's a real tender spot for you. But there comes a time where eventually, if the person persists, now it's becoming really toxic. Now it's not just annoying, right? It's demeaning, it's you know, you know, it tears down. It tears down, and God doesn't tear down, he builds. So you know where that's coming from.

SPEAKER_03 9:26

I'm good at that on the outside. It's on the inside that I s I struggle with. There's this constant battle of are you being selfish? Are you you know, can you do that? Should you do that? And it's just this constant constant battle. And with people on the outside, I'm great with it's just in maybe a familial situation. Gotta be honest with you, it's a struggle.

SPEAKER_02 9:54

Yeah. Yeah. You know, well, and I think that, you know, this is a big topic. And so anybody listening right now, like, you know, there's there are um toxic marriages, there are toxic parent-child relationships, there are par toxic relationships child to parent, there and there are toxic people that we encounter in church or in ministry or at work, right? So there are all kinds of different places, and I think that we don't treat everything the same.

SPEAKER_04 10:26

Right.

SPEAKER_02 10:27

And that was something for for me to learn was that, you know, I think it was the first time my son dated a young woman who, like, I would have worked with her in my program. She would qualify for my program. But here my son was dating her. And he and I had a long conversation about like, I was like, honey, she's she's not in a healthy place. And he was sort of accusatory, like, mom, like that's who you care about. That's your whole life, is working with people who are not in that healthy place. Like, right, but like within my marriage, honey, and my close relationships, I work for healthy relationships. So like I feel like it's better for you. You want to, you know, help this woman into a ministry. Great, but like committing to her for life is gonna set you up for some difficulty unless she gets help, unless she, you know, some of it might be a maturity thing. It didn't prove to be that, but you know, like it was just one of those things. So I think that that's there's different different things, different boundaries I would set within my closest relationships than in my ministry relationships. And I think that Jesus modeled some of that with you know, having three that were very close to him and 12 that were a little closer, and then his followers, and then, you know, like he had different, he gave ways.

SPEAKER_03 11:54

Right, for sure. And then he said, Who is my mother and brother as well. So meaning what, as far as you're concerned? Well, you know, he had those close relationships, but then with his family, he still said, you know, my family is the ones that do the will of the father. So I don't know, just working it out, and I can't come and say, you know, here's all the answers. I know when I was pastoring, there was people that would come in and I know they would be um abusive to those in the in the church. I'm like, not in my sheet pen. And I would I'm great, I'm on it. You know, it's just when it comes into those that you love, you know, it's harder. It's harder to do. And and I'm better at it than I was when I was younger. I think age and experience help. And um, but I can't honestly say I've got it all together. And here's the answer.

SPEAKER_02 12:50

I'm just gonna jump us to this idea that um we uh uh like tell me if I'm wrong, but I think that even if there was like an abusive relationship, abusive parent or abuse of child or abuse of spouse, you would I like I use David and Saul as my model for that. That it is okay to get out of spear throwing distance, but that you do maintain honor and you do hold out hope, especially you know, hope in Christ. You do keep the door open and hope for change. You don't necessarily invite that person back into your home to abuse you until they're you've seen a change in their behavior, but you do hold out for hope for change when it comes to those. I don't know what do you guys think about that, the always keep the door open factor.

SPEAKER_00 13:42

Depends on what you meant by keep the door open, you know, and depends on how bad the abuse is. Um, and who the person is that's being abused, um, you know, because there's different levels on which we can handle things. You know, the spiritually mature person will do a lot better with you know dealing with that kind of talk or whatever to them um than the young Christian. And so that's a big factor too, because the more wisdom you have, the more the mind of Christ you have. And and you know, and Christ, of course, stayed silent when he was being accused. And so sometimes we're called to do that too. But I I just um I just there's so many ver variations of how this can go in terms of who's being abused and then who's doing the abusing. And of course, you have people, a lot of people that are abusers systematically in their life because they were abused, you know. So sometimes it's all they know. And like they think they're doing a great thing, think they're being a great parent, they think, you know, because that's what they learned from, that's what they had in their own experience. So there's that.

SPEAKER_02 14:56

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I like when it comes to abuse, that's what, you know, I worked with families that were marked by abuse. And for me, it was like a it was about a proven, sustained period of change. That that, you know, especially, but like in abusive marriages, sometimes those were just like, no, that's that's done. And, you know, I remember having to talk to a pastor once of a family that I worked with and just say, you know, because the wife said, Well, if if my husband repents next week, my he's gonna say, I need to let him back in the house. And so I talked with the pastor and said, you know, like literally this family, the children will be removed if that happens. The his man cannot come back in the house. This is not my rule. This is the rule of the state where we live. And um, and the pastor said, Well, what if he like comes in and and repents, walks down the aisle and repents? And I said, Well, can you is it fair to do this? If he repents, is it fair for you to say, that's great, and we accept your repentance, but here's here's what I want you to do for the next six months. And that is live separately and have and respect the no contact order and meet with me. And I said, please try that and let me know what the result is. And it wasn't two weeks later that the pastor called me and said, Wow. As soon as I said, like, this is great, you know, I said the things that you said, he exploded and told me I didn't have a right to that. And he had a right and was like abusive, verbally abusive to me. I said, Well, so that helps you to test is this actually repentance, right? Or is this something that, you know, a show? So I think it's reasonable for us not to just like like when my grandchildren go, sorry, you know, like a lot of adults have learned to go, oh my bad, ooh, sorry. And I think as the church, we can say, well, you know what, like bear, you know, bring fruit in keeping with repentance. Let's let's see how repentant you actually are.

SPEAKER_03 17:09

Yeah, I like that, you know, that's a good definition for toxic relationships, if their rights overpower yours. Yeah. I think that's a good one. And and you're right, it is situational though, too, because if somebody were to hurt, say, my grandkids or my kids, they would never have an option to get or an opportunity for that door to be open ever, ever. That door is closed, slammed. Repent, great, go work on yourself, don't you're not back on you know, doesn't have my any access to my grandkids. So But you know, Jesus did say be wise as a serpent and gentle as a dove. So there are times when okay, if you're repentant, you show me the fruit of that repentance, then maybe I can, you know, trust you again and let you back in. Yeah. Being wise.

SPEAKER_02 17:59

Being wise, yeah, absolutely. You like you said, if someone has hurt a child, you don't let them near children again. That's yeah. Well, you know, there's been a strong recent trend, pe speaking of variations on this, a strong recent trend of adult children cutting ties with their parents, especially Christian parents, because they feel those parents are unsafe. Um, and they're not talking about physical safety. They're they're feeling that their ideas are unsafe. As I speak, you know, and and probably you all when you speak and minister, I see this more and more now. People just estranged from uh, you know, a college-age or adult children because of this idea that your faith is dangerous to me, it's unsafe to me. So, what are your, you know, have you had an experience with this? What you know, not necessarily personal, but in talking to people, um, does this ever make sense for adult children to do? Or, you know, or what and what are parents, what are Christian parents to do?

SPEAKER_03 19:01

So, yeah, my faith is unsafe to you. There's things that challenge your beliefs, and there's things that you know you might need a change. Yeah, it's unsafe, but unsafe for what? Your beliefs, your feelings, your what is it unsafe for? Big deal. Suck it up, buttercup. Let's deal with it as a family. Let's, you know, I think cutting your parents off, if there's no abuse, this is all if there's no abuse, um, is self-righteous and abhorrent and self-centered and egotistical, selfish. Have I made it clear? I think it's awful. I think it's awful. And God knew that we would have this problem because he put it in the commandments number five for a reason because we would be struggling with this. And um, we do need to honor our parents. And it doesn't mean that we have it never says you have to love them, it says honor them, make sure that they are okay, you know, all that. Honor them. Um, but I think it is a horrible thing to do to somebody that has loved you and raised you without abuse, um, to just say you're unsafe. Okay. Selfish little twerk. Yeah. How do I really feel? Do I uh can I um relate to this? Maybe. Maybe, but it's like I um I did nothing to you, and now you're being selfish, and I I think it's awful there.

SPEAKER_00 20:36

Yeah, that whole cancel culture mentality is a tough one. It was kind of shocking when it first arrived on the scene. I'm getting used to it now, but I still think it's it's really dangerous. Um in most cases, it's a terrible idea. Um, because uh you have to look and say, where do I want this person to be in 10 years? You know, and shutting them down means that you have no more influence on them. Now, like I said, there comes a time sometimes where that has to happen because it's too damaging to continue. So, you know, it's just it's a real, you know, Holy Spirit call. Right. What do I do with this? You know. Um, so um, but this this you know, this triggers me. Well, you know, I know what a trigger is, and mostly that's not it. You know, triggers when you go into a panic attack or can't see straight, you know, not I'm offended. Um so there's a difference between offense and triggering. Um, and there's a difference between being annoyed that somebody doesn't agree with you and saying they're not safe. So it just it gets used too often for me. You know, I feel like it's it's kind of a cop out.

SPEAKER_03 21:57

Yeah. Yeah, because you don't want to deal with yourself.

SPEAKER_00 21:59

Right. Right. And you and you don't want to put the effort into agreeing to disagree, and that's a hard one, but sometimes that's what needs to be done. And um, and then just we're not gonna talk about this subject now. You know, politics is one like that. I have relatives that are just all in, and I I just finally told them, you know what, I I really don't want to talk about it. I know what I think, I know you think I'm wrong, I get it, but you know, you gotta let people make their own decisions and not feel like you have to run everybody's life because you have a certain belief. So anyway, it's just a again, it's a judgment call. Um, you know.

SPEAKER_02 22:40

I mean, I you know, from what I, you know, like there's a range of commentary that I either hear from people or see online about, uh, and and I want to be careful because you know, when we're raising kids, many of us are young. And so we hopefully we grow and we learn. But even the expression of our faith, we can, you know, like I see some of the stuff that's come out about different sort of cultish kinds of Christianity, legalistic Christianity. Sometimes there's like perfectly good teaching that people take in a legalistic fashion and apply it legalistically. And I can appreciate why kids that grew up in an environment where they just felt shamed all the time by by faith, or they felt like they somehow not just that they were doing wrong, but that they were wrong, you know, to exist basically. That that's why they would feel, okay, this is like this ventures into a space where I don't know if I can be or if I want my children around my parents anymore. I understand that. I'm not saying that I support that. I still think that it would be better for people to try to work things out, try to, you know, like you said, set good boundaries. I'm not gonna let my kids stay overnight, and I'm not gonna be unsupervised, but we're still gonna be able to share a meal together. Um, but if parents are not willing to work with that, then then I have to question whether they're using the Bible as a control tool, or if they, you know, if they if it is an expression of their faith. Because I think that there should be, you know, place everybody should be working. So that I do see some of that that I feel like it's fair to set some distance because there's been some, you know, some spiritual possibly abuse. Right. So that so that's fair, but I think that a lot of stuff right now gets swept, you know, Jesse. If you don't wholeheartedly fully support the fact that I live with my girlfriend, then you're unsafe for me and we can't be with you. Well, okay, no, I, you know, like I still, you know, I remember when my son was, again, my son, because he's my lead child, he's my oldest child, right? So the first time he was making decisions that I felt like were sinful, I sat with him and was like, okay, you're an adult. I can't like punish you for this anymore. And you're choosing to do this. Do what do you think I want to say to you about it? And he, you know, I think that's a great question for parents to ask their adult show, what do you think I want to say to you about this? And hear what they think you're thinking. That's great. That was helpful for me to hear his thinking of what I was thinking. And I I could actually back off. Like he was like being sort of stronger worded than I would ever be. So I was like, Well, I don't think I'd go there. But then I was like, So help me, but so you I raised you and you know my faith and my understanding of the of beliefs. So help me understand why you're choosing to do this. And then he talked some more.

SPEAKER_04 25:46

Right.

SPEAKER_02 25:47

And then finally I said, you know, of course, I would have loved for him to be like, oh, I'm sorry, I'll never do this again. That's not how that worked out. But I said, so I am gonna feel like this is gonna bother me. I am still me. Uh I love you and I want you to be welcome to my house. But like, I can't imagine never talking to you about this again. Like, how often could you tolerate me bringing it up? And he was like, Oh, that's fair enough. I don't want you to like explode. But so he was like, like, okay, like maybe twice a month you can talk to me about it. Like, okay, that's fair. And so I would circle two days on my calendar every month, and like, hey, you so have you rethought like this decision that you're doing. So I kept to that, but then it wasn't like every time, you know, I was bringing it up with him. But I think that there's, you know, we we we have to, I don't know, it helps to have the conversations rather than just to let it get all awkward and weird and just cut things off. Right.

SPEAKER_00 26:50

I mean, you know, somebody tells me, Oh, that triggers me. I'll say, Well, tell me what the trigger is, like and explain, you know, can I can you tell me why? And and I get them to talk about it. Um, and that's I think really important too, because we we need to do a lot of listening when people get you know crazy about stuff and think, well, have I contributed to that? And and so that's maybe a behavior I can avoid. And um, but you know, the the big word there, and Laura, you just said it, love. It's love. We were commanded to love each other. Um, we're not commanded to all think the same, we're not commanded to you know be in total unity on every subject, but we are unified in Christ. We've all been created in God's image, we've you know, Christians have all been saved by the blood of Christ. We're all in, not by anything we've done. And so it's all about what Jesus has done for us, and so that we have in common, and so all the other things um dim in significance to that. So that's kind of my starting place, is is is thinking about the unity Christ wants us to have. He prayed for it, and he prayed and asked God, you know, let them love each other so people will know they're from me.

SPEAKER_04 28:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:12

And so, you know, if if that's the first thing, I think Christians a lot of times when they think, well, how will people know I'm a Christian? Well, I'm gonna be very moral and I'm gonna follow all the rules, and you know, I won't watch porn and I won't smoke cigarettes, and you know, when I was a kid, no dancing, you know, that's how I show them Christ. And it's not, it's love.

unknown 28:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:35

So there's that too. It's complicated, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 28:39

It is complicated because I think like we have like those of us who are helpers who like minister, and there's a part of us that can venture into this idea that our love can fix everything. Yes, our love can fix people.

SPEAKER_00 28:55

Right.

SPEAKER_02 28:56

And and that, like I had to learn that lesson, you know, coming from a family that was, you know, just like I, you know, I experienced all kinds of neglect or abuse growing up. And um, a book by Gary Thomas really helped me. It was called When to Walk Away. And he works through this whole thing. And for the most part, most of this book is about like, nope, you work through it this way. Nope, you work through it this way. But then he did talk about, especially adult children, of abusive relationships or um abusive, you know, physically abusive marriages. He's like, look, there like you have to stop thinking you can fix stuff just because you have Jesus in you. Your love cannot fix people.

SPEAKER_04 29:40

Right.

SPEAKER_02 29:41

So if they don't want to be, if these are people who don't want to be different, they're happy with the way that they operate in the world. That's a situation, and and the way they operate is dangerous to you. That's you know, literally, physically, um, you know, or emotionally or spiritually, then you need to um be cautious. Like I still didn't walk away. It still was they, you know, they walked away from me. But um, but it helped me to have some peace with it and to stop thinking I like stop that magic thinking that I could fix them. My love could, it's Jesus' love that fixes them. And sometimes it's Jesus that has to like let me take them over here, yeah. Like and I'll talk to them now, Lori. Like you, like you obviously keep trying to fix things, and that's not working. So I think we always pray, we always in our hearts hold out hope, um, our hope in Christ for a change, but yeah.

SPEAKER_03 30:42

And warn. I mean, what's a parent to do if if this is their child who they truly love? You're gonna have to warn it, warn it, pray it, surround yourself with people that um understand and care about you and um leave them in the hands of Jesus. Like you said, sometimes they have to go off and let Jesus love them over there.

SPEAKER_02 31:07

Because yeah, yeah, like the father of the in the prodigal son story, right? Like him, you know, he was ready to receive him, but he didn't go out, he wasn't the one that dragged him out of the pig sty.

SPEAKER_04 31:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:20

So uh so where so where does the Bible, you know, we're three chicks in a Bible, where does the Bible, where do you see it talking about boundaries, um, or demonstrating boundaries and relationships? Where or what where do you draw your guidelines from scripture on this topic?

SPEAKER_00 31:37

It's complicated. Yeah, I see I see many examples of boundaries in scripture, and just to name a few, Paul corrected Peter when he went and sat with the Jews so not to offend, and then of course offended the Gentiles in the process. Um, Paul uh gave these two guys, Hymeneus and Alexander, set them apart from the congregation for blaspheming. Um, in 1 Corinthians 5, this is the challenging one for me. There was a guy who was who was having ins making incest with his stepmother. And so um, but the Corinthian church was running around bragging about how liberal and open-minded they were, and so Paul said, set them aside. He said, hand them over to Satan. Yeah, right? Yeah, and I think to me, it's send him back out in the world, you know, because to encourage him to brag about him, you are only enabling sin. That's Julie, not Paul. But I, you know, I do think that that's that's the real problem. If if we're not reacting in some way to someone who's systematically being toxic, I think we're enabling them to continue. Yeah, and that's a real problem, you know. Like I said before, you want to make sure that you're doing something that you what is your goal for them? You want them to be like Jesus, you want them to honor God, you want them to live for Him. And um, if you're if you're not somehow reacting, you know, you got you gotta look and see is this the right thing for 10 years. Here's an example. My sister was marrying a guy that wasn't a Christian, and my best friend, who was very close with my family, told me I can't come to the wedding because she's marrying she's not a Christian, they're unequally yoked. I said, Well, what's your goal for him? Because you know, if do you want him to become a Christian? Oh, yes. I said, Do you think rejecting him and refusing to come to the wedding that's gonna help him along that road? I don't think so, but she didn't come. And um, but here's the thing he just became a Christian 45 years later. Yeah, so I mean, but you have to look and say, what what consequences would it have, either positive or negative. So there's that too, and I see that, that's the thing. But then you got first Timothy 5 7, he says, Have nothing to do with them. In the past you were full of darkness, but now you're full of light in the Lord. So live like children who belong to the light. Light brings every kind of goodness, right living in truth. You got somebody living in darkness, even though he's been rescued from that into the domain of light. You know, you can't condone it. And sometimes silence condones.

SPEAKER_02 34:24

Yeah, no, I agree. I don't like it when um, like my my local church where I attend, they get sick of me saying this, because some people will say, like, well, that's just so and so, they complain. Like, no, no. So, who's talked with so-and-so about this complaining habit? Who's who's gonna have that conversation? Because, like, that's a way to dismiss a person. That's kind or loving to be like, oh, we don't list, you know, we just let that person complain because that's what they do. No, like, let's how can we help so-and-so to grow a little bit? How can you know, and and you know, there's not a usually a lot of hands going up like, oh, I'll have that hard conversation. That's not what's happening. And so, like, I know that in the church, there have been times when we uh when people have come down too hard on people, when having conversations about sinful behavior and stuff have just become a nightmare. But what happens is when people want to take the scriptures the way they're the the Lord teaches and just have a simple conversation about stuff, Satan like holds up this fun house mirror from the past and says, ooh, you don't want to be like that, and it shuts us down, silences us. And instead, we have to go, okay, so people have been abusive in the past, so how am I gonna make sure that I have a conversation that's loving? Because I love Romans 12, talks about that love should be without hypocrisy. Love should be sincere, and it gives you this whole list of ways to be with each other. There's a you know, I forget maybe Getz wrote a book called, you know, what all with all the one another passages, all the ways that we are supposed to treat one another. There's a lot about it, and we're supposed to have genuine love, not like surfacey love. And that can just like with any family, sometimes that means, you know, we tell you that you smell bad before you leave the building so that you don't go out and smell in public. Like, because we and we think that's a favor. Like that's you know, not really a talk about people's the way they smell, but you know what I mean? Like, like we do have some conversations. I've had people say to me, you know, when I was younger, like, you know, like things that I was doing were immature, or you know, like the way I was responding was just was not healthy. They didn't sit with me and say you're a sinner, you know, so you're sinning. They were like, you know, is there a better way for you to handle that than talking about that person or telling 16 people your problem instead of going to the person who created the problem, like, oh, yeah, they're probably yes, that helped me grow up and mature. Um, but you know, like for the most part, I had healthy churches and healthy relationships. So I know it's been done badly. I know I know that, but that shouldn't stop us from you know living out. Like Peter scolded, you know, Jesus scolded Peter pretty harshly. Um, you know, he redirected Martha. But but then but then they become really close. And it says Jesus loved Martha, uh, you know, and he trusted her with the the truth of that he's the resurrection and the life. So this correction didn't end their relationship. It didn't, you know, forget it. No, he talked to me like that in front of everybody once, and I'm not talking like whatever. Like, you know, he they worked through it. So I think that we need to keep working through stuff.

SPEAKER_03 37:46

Absolutely. You know, there's a saying, family is the one that can tell you you have dirt on your face.

SPEAKER_04 37:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 37:52

So, you know, that's what we that's part of doing the one another's you have dirt on your face. You know, and you're saving them from themselves as well. You know, like you said, you know, you're being a little immature there. You know, can you go to God with this instead of talking to 15 people about it first? But we say we constantly think, you know, in this conversation it's complicated. It's complicated. It's complicated because people are complicated. The Bible isn't complicated. It's pretty straightforward in, you know, what we're supposed to do is like, do we want to do that though? We don't want to hurt anybody's feelings, we don't want to look at them, we you know, we don't want to not be in a relationship in anymore. Speaking the truth in love, that's not just the other people, it's about yourself and speaking um about you and your situation and what you're going through in love as well. And um so going to somebody and saying that hurt me is loving. Yeah, you're not gonna be ugly about it and say so-and-so. You can say, Hey, can we talk? But that's speaking truth and love, and that keeps um Jesus in it, and not giving the enemy, you know, some room to jump in and go, shit, I don't like me or whatever, and cause division.

SPEAKER_02 39:11

Yeah, well, when you say like it's complicated, honestly, I feel like we shouldn't, we should really rip the band-aid off complicated. Like there are a lot of things in life that are complicated that we deal with. How what to eat, our finances, how to get educated. There's a lot of complicated things that we navigate. You know, sometimes the Bible, it does take knowledge of more than one verse in order to understand what the Lord wants. It does take some working through stuff to keep relationships together, to keep a church healthy and growing. Sometimes it feels complicated, but we, especially people who are mature in the church, we should be less afraid of complicated. We should be like, hey, you know what? I did figure out how to get my how to buy a car and how to buy a house. Maybe I can figure out how to work out a relationship too. That's you know, even if it gets complex.

unknown 40:06

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 40:07

You know, an important part of love is humility and wanting the best for the other person. And um, I think humility is huge in any in dealing in any relationship. Um, and it's it's not so much about what we want, uh, but and we know that at the cross there's equal ground. We all needed Jesus, we're all sinful, we all have a sinful nature, and without Jesus, we were lost. So that's where we all started. And then we're you know, different places along the journey to becoming like Christ. But the thing is, it's it's humility. You can't uh Paul said in in uh one of my favorite passages is in um Romans, and it's chapter two. We hear about Romans 1 a lot, but not so much about chapter 2. But he said, You have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else. For whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself because you who pass judgment do the same things. I often think that when I see somebody doing something bad and and think, you know, somebody should somebody should talk to them. And but then I think, well, I'm am I the person? Because sometimes I do it too. You know, and just just recognize that um we all have faults. We're coming from a very faulty, broken place, everybody. Um, and and we've been healed by Jesus or in the process of being healed, and um, and but we owe it all to him. And and to try to act like we're superior because we're talking to someone, and I have been talked down to like that many times in my life, and I just I just can't even hear it. Yeah, because there's no humility, it's it's it's a it's pride.

SPEAKER_02 41:49

Um I do remember, I remember I was only 13, so the guy was probably right, but I remember going into a pastor with like a pretty hefty theological question, but I was very emotional about it, and I was crying, and and he said that to me, he goes, Lori, come back when you're not so emotional. And it was like such a solid shutdown that I carried that for a long time. And now, like, I guess I want to say to people, like, look, it's like emotions were not our idea, they were gods, and like we need to like say, like, okay, like you need to deal with all of me, my emotions too. Like, I have emotions. Of course, I you know, as I've matured, I've learned I don't like not everybody has to deal with every one of my emotions. But um, so one of my final thoughts is to like I think that believers, we shouldn't have a couple of people in our lives, like you guys are people like that for me, my my best friend, my husband, who can who you give blanket permission to speak into your life and to say to you, like, ah, you know what, that wasn't such a great, you know it doesn't seem like you're headed in the right direction, or are you, you know, like, are you sure that that's the right approach for that? You know, like people should be willing to say to you, is that, you know, and you should like not everybody, you don't want to open the door for everybody, but for a couple of mature Christians to say to you, like, hey, you're veering off the path. I think that that's the more we have that, the more like the humility grows. And then we can be sensitive if we, you know, are setting boundaries or you know, talking to someone else about their situation. How about you guys? What are a couple of final thoughts?

SPEAKER_03 43:37

As people are listening to this, there's probably a whole bunch of, yeah, but what about you don't know my situation? Yeah, but what about that? Yeah, you don't know. And those questions that are coming up in your head, I I um would suggest going to somebody that is trained and talk talk to them about it. Obviously, pray it through, talk. your pastor, but um I would love if people would actually work through it instead of putting up a boundary saying, you know, you're not gonna hurt me. Sometimes we have to be hurt to grow. And it's it's okay.

SPEAKER_02 44:19

Yeah, no, it is important sometimes to get professional help. People who are, you know, good at this kind of stuff to get guidance from a mature, um, you know, certified believer, you know, like or someone with training, someone you know who really has qualifications. So that is important. Julie, how about you?

SPEAKER_00 44:38

Well I'm just thinking about this set up boundaries idea. Um and you know there's there's certain people who have you know that harp on something when they know most of the room is dead set against it. And I've actually just you know I and I have one family member that just she lives politics and um and it was Christmas. And so she started it was just like three or four of us in this conversation and she brought it up found a way to bring it up and I just I just said hey listen let's not do politics on Christmas. Shut her right down and it wasn't mean it wasn't condemning but I was just letting her know boundary right you're not ruining this holiday for us you know and and she stopped so sometimes it can just be a gentle prod in one direction or can we just agree to disagree here? You know it doesn't have to be I shun you which some people do and and sometimes it might be appropriate like it in in Paul when he was talking about different people you know don't just don't let them enabling somebody to sin is not love. And so I have a friend whose husband was beating her up and she went to the elders and they said you need to pray and forgive him and go back. And they sent her back several times. I'm not kidding you to one day she had to call the police and uh because he had started on her son and that was it for her that was her bound you know and then she left but um you know what are you doing you know when the wives of the elders found out they were outraged that their husbands would have sent her back into something like that. So sometimes you know you do need boundaries to be safe.

SPEAKER_02 46:26

Yeah but you know it like I say it's a spectrum there's a lot of things involved um you just have to depend on the Lord to show you what to do I think yeah and if anybody's listening and you've been told you know like you're being abused by someone in the church someone in your home you are physically or sexually unsafe and you've been told by them that it's you know it's unbiblical or it's against God to get help it is not like you can tell someone you know you can get help you can tell someone safe um that you're being hurt. If you are being hurt it is it is you know God wants you to reach out and get help. And so that's you know I want you to know that that is um that's important to hear and to and to trust and you can talk to us and we'll give you help you get um help that you need give you resources for that on our website we can do that. Yeah. Like as you know in our faith we hold out hope for everybody but just like David and Saul David took distance from Saul when he was throwing spears at him trying to kill him that he you know he maintained love for Saul and honor for Saul and respect for Saul. He didn't try to harm Saul back but he did set a distance so there is occasion for you know a firm boundary um on things that are toxic but honestly the church is about reconciliation about love about forgiveness about working through most situations people can work through but as we I think as we get toward the end of the age right is it Timothy you know in Timothy the letter to Timothy Paul talks about how there will be you know there'll be an increase in abuse increase in people's love for themselves increase in violence and so like sometimes people say oh are we just hearing more about this is it you know has it always existed I I you guys can tell me if I'm wrong but I think that we can expect a rise in abusive behavior the closer we get to the end of the age. And so then we do have to kind of grow up as a church about talking about this and learning how to apply scriptures appropriately and listen to the Spirit as he leads. Yes all right well thanks so much another like complicated intense discussion but I always I always learn for you too so thank you.

SPEAKER_01 49:01

Yeah thank you thanks for listening everybody yeah thanks you have been listening to Three Chicks and a Bible don't stop now keep asking the hard question. Check out our website at threechicksandabible dot com where you can respond to this episode find out more about the three chicks and submit questions for a future episode subscribe to our show from anywhere you get your podcasts as always thank you for stopping by