Christians, Politics, and the Question of Loyalty

What does the Bible really say about government, political involvement, and Christian responsibility?

In this episode, we tackle some of the most challenging questions believers face in today’s political climate:

What passages shape the Christian understanding of government and authority?
What does “No King but King Jesus” actually mean in everyday life?
How should Christians respond when government policies conflict with biblical convictions?
Can believers engage in politics without compromising their faith?
Is it possible to stay faithful to Christ without becoming consumed by political identity?

From the Roman Empire of the New Testament to the tensions facing Christians around the world today, we explore how Scripture calls believers to live with wisdom, courage, humility, and allegiance to Christ above all else.

Whether you’re politically active, politically exhausted, or simply trying to think biblically in a divided culture, this conversation will challenge and encourage you.

Key words:
Christianity and Politics
Government
Christian Re
sponsibility
Authority
Romans 13
Church and State
Faith and Politics
Political Engagement
Christian Nationalism
Biblical Worldview
Kingdom of God
Christian Living
Biblical Leadership
Political Polarization

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:05

Welcome to Three Chicks in the Bible, where we ditch the easy answers, roll up our sleeves, and wrestle with the hard stuff in Scripture. We're talking about the real questions, the messy parts, and what it looks like to follow Jesus. No fences, no filters, just three women chasing after truth, beauty, and the wild, untamable Christ. We are so glad that you've joined us today.

SPEAKER_04 0:36

Is it possible for believers to engage in politics without being consumed by political identity? Let's talk about it.

SPEAKER_01 0:46

Before I ask the first question, I'm just gonna preface this whole conversation with um part of our intent in doing this podcast was to, you know, because we want to talk through these issues like mature believers, right? And we want to be in the habit of not hiding from things, from wrestling through things. You know, we are disciples in progress, so we don't know everything. And as things develop and we mature, we may modify or tweak our understanding of, or sometimes completely change our understanding of the application of certain passages. But um a lot of conversations are happening around our country right now about a Christian's responsibility toward government and politics. And personally, I think they're um starting in the wrong place. They're they're first of all, they're happening in the wrong places, they're happening over social media, which is not the venue necessarily for to have to imagine you're gonna have a productive conversation. But they're also not starting with, hey, let's start by making sure we all understand the words, what scriptures we're referring to, what we think is sort of the overarching, what the Bible says in an overarching way, before we get into specific topics in this category. So um probably today, um, who knows where the conversation will go because we never map that out. But probably today will be more of an overarching conversation about what our understanding is of what the Bible teaches overall about government and a Christian's responsibility. And we may touch on some individual topics, but we're not necessarily we may have follow-up podcasts to this to get into the nitty-gritty of some of the more um specifics. Always a good practice to make sure before you jump into a conversation, there's always time to say, hey, if we're gonna talk about this, let me understand what you mean by X and do you think the Bible is an authority? You know, it's fine to talk to people who don't think the Bible is an authority, but it's good to know um in the in the front whether they do or not. All right. So, first of all, women, let's just share some of the passages we believe relate to today's topic about a Christian's responsibility regarding government and politics. Um, and from what passages or overall biblical teaching do we get our understanding of the role of earthly government and our responsibility toward it? So, where do we go first in the Bible for these um for this conversation? Who wants to start?

SPEAKER_04 3:21

I I found about 10 pages of verses. Oh wow. Okay, glad you know, okay. Bringing examples up to me, and um, and so I just um but I think I think I would start with Daniel. And uh Daniel made it very clear. Um, he says, uh, it is he, God, who changes the times and the periods, he removes kings and appoints kings, he gives wisdom to wise men and knowledge to people of understanding. And so we have to acknowledge before we do anything else, the big principle is God is sovereign, God is in control. Now, sometimes that's hard to see because some things look really bad, and you think, Where are you, God? You know, where was he during the um Holocaust or you know, all the atrocities that have been committed? You know, why did he put that guy in charge? You know, but he has bigger purposes than we can see. And uh, I'm reminded in in Habakkuk where he was saying there's so much injustice, and he was just talking about in his own country, but terrible things are going on, and I know you're a God of justice. Why are you allowing this? And basically, God says, You can't see what I'm doing because it's way bigger than just you and your country. And he talks about the Chaldeans and he's bringing them in, and and then Habakkuk is like, wait a minute, wait a minute, they're worse than us. So it's hard to understand sometimes what you know, what God is doing when you look around at the circumstance, but there's an underlying fact that we have to acknowledge always, and that God is in control, and there's nothing by accident. So, even the worst of the worst, you say he's going to use that in some way to bring about his purposes, which is a great comfort to me because things happen and and you feel like, you know, God, where are you? You taking a nap? I mean, what's happening here? And of course, I know that's not true, but you know, and then and then you say, Well, wait a minute, I see this much, and God sees this much and and knows the future and has his purposes, and he will he will finish what he started. So, you know, hang on for the ride. So that's the first passage. And of course, Daniel um objected to Nebuchadnezzar's order about eating, and so he asked if he could, you know, eat the the kinds of foods that they were supposed to eat in in their own um obedience to God's word. And so they did that. Um the he was told to worship Nebuchadnezzar, and Daniel refused, and they put him in the lion's den. Then he cursed Shadrach, Meshach, and Bendigo, this golden image he put out in the desert, um, King Darius, and and they said, We're just we're not gonna bow down to you because you're not our God. And and so there's times when if you're ordered to do something that goes against what you know God is not for, but this is personally your decision to do that, then there's a conflict, and then you got to figure that out, which is later on in the discussion. So, anyway, that's my first my first scripture I went to is Daniel.

SPEAKER_01 6:30

So, for those who aren't familiar, like you so Daniel's a great example, it's a great book to read, it's in the Old Testament, and Daniel was uh an Israelite, and the Israelites were taken over by another country, and they were essentially enslaved by them. So, you know, not a lot of choice. Not you know, so Daniel's way of approaching that was to generate, he he worked for the king, he did, he did cooperate in that work, he stayed alive, he was just a probably a teenager when he was taken with his um friends. But when um the law of the land, when the king's orders clearly um came across purposes with God's orders, Daniel did refuse to do that and accept the consequences. And so um that's that's you know, we're not under a king's government, we're not under, we're not enslaved or oppressed. So, like we can learn from that, but it's a different I always want to distinguish with people like be sure when you're talking about Bible passages, you you think about what government was that were they under then, and what government are we under now? There are Christians around the world who are under those kind of governments, and they have to figure out their response. But uh the other thing that you said was that we understand from scripture that God establishes um kings and governments. Um, but I think that you're all you didn't say it specifically, but my understanding from scripture is that doesn't mean that he approves of all of their behavior and all of their choices. Right. So to say that God set someone in place or allowed someone to become the leader of a country is not to say that he um that that person is living the way God wants them to.

unknown 8:18

Right.

SPEAKER_04 8:19

One good look at world leaders and say, oh, that can't be true. Right, right, right.

SPEAKER_01 8:24

But I think there's a lot of misunderstanding about that when we say that God put the authorities in place. Um, he put them, you know. So anyway, I won't I won't keep answering about how about you, Stacy? Where do you what's a scripture where you well?

SPEAKER_02 8:38

I think it's funny because I've asked, you know, I talked to people about this. Do you think Christians should be involved in politics? And it always, well, not always, but it it's obvious what political line they fall on when they answer the question. It's really interesting. And we've been talking about this for centuries about should believers be involved, and the Essenes decided to pull completely out, the Herodians jumped completely in, and neither one of them could be um influential in um the kingdom. So what do we do? Well, I go to yes, I've gone to Daniel and stuff, but my main focus, I think, I go to Titus. Titus is a really good example, and it it there's no verse to say do it, there's no verse to say don't do, you know, don't get involved, but it does say to be peaceable, yes, and um to let's see, let me read my verse, to be subject to rulers, to be obedient, to be ready to do what is good, be peaceable, and avoid foolish controversies and quarrels above about the law because it's useless, it's it's just useless. So I am more concerned about are we being um attractive to others for the gospel? Are we being attractive for that? Are we advocating for justice? Are we being salt and light? And I don't think there's a yes or no. Do you get involved? But um, are you doing the stuff of Jesus in your life? Are you living that life? Do you get involved? Maybe God calls you to get involved, maybe he doesn't. I mean, I know of a time I was very much involved and wanting to be involved in politics when I was younger. I was just that person. I was gonna be the first woman of the first woman president of the United States. That's what I was gonna be. Either that or a major league baseball player. Either one. But there's still time to do both, Stacy. No, no, no, because I was gonna get involved and I was very much gonna run for council, and I prayed, God, is this what you want me to do? And one time I was at a council meeting and I was talking to a councilman that really wanted me to get involved, and the two of us were talking, and a big wind came and threw us back apart. And I'm like, got my answer. You don't want me involved because there is another path you want me to do to show who um you are, Jesus, through me. So, but there are so many great people that can run for office, and he calls for office. I mean, Joseph, he wanted to be involved in the Old Testament. Joseph ran Egypt. So, I mean, there is no right or wrong, it's just if that's what God has called you to do, you better be on your knees. You better be on your knees. So, my my focus is mostly Titus. Are you doing the stuff? Are you living peaceably? And sometimes politics is ugly, and is that where God wants you? Maybe not. Maybe not.

SPEAKER_01 11:39

Yep. Well, I you know, I think like everybody knows that Romans 13, you know, along with Daniel, along with Titus, Romans 13 goes into um, let every person be subject to the governing authorities, for there's no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. So that's where Julie was getting that. Therefore, whoever resists the authorities, he resists what God has appointed. That's essentially, in my understanding, meaning those who are resisting the authorities in defiance of the law. Um, and there is a time for a believer to do that, but but you know, generally, um, when I read Acts and even when I read the gospels, you know, they were trying to work through the law when they were working with, you know, when they decided to what they were trying to do with Jesus, they were still trying to work in cooperation with the law. Um, John and um Peter were trying to, they obeyed most of the laws, except when they were told not to preach. Right. They're like, who should we, you know, Acts four and five, I think. Yeah, you know, who do who should we, you know, obey? You or the Lord? Like, we're gonna be obey the Lord on this one. We are going to keep preaching. Right now, what I see believers in truly oppressed countries, I don't believe Christians, you know, we have some, there are people who don't like us in America, but I wouldn't say uh not liking us is amounts to persecution. No, like there are people who don't like Christianity. Okay, that's you know, that's they're free to do that. But in in there are countries where you're like the church is dominated by the government and Christians truly are imprisoned or like lose their lives. In those countries, they do try to be law-abiding citizens, except when it comes to we will worship our God, we will talk about Jesus. But when they make those choices, they expect to suffer the consequences. So that's you know, and I John, you know, Peter and John expected to suffer consequences for what they did. So I think that in America we want, we want to do what we want and not have any consequences, um, you know, which is I think is un you know, like the rest of the world is going, uh, what makes you special? Right? Like there are governments in place, but because we have the government we have, we expect a certain amount of freedom because it's in our constitution, and that's the government that we have. So, in any time, even in modern times, we have to ask ourselves, you know, when we are talking about responsibility toward the government or whatever, ours is not the only form of government under which Christians have to operate in this world. So let's look to them and let's look to, you know, let's not just look at Americans, but let's look around the world and say what's the baseline? Because Romans 13 passage, people are throwing that around a lot in ways that are irritating to not just to um unbelievers, but to fellow Christians and stuff. You can't just throw scriptures out there. Personally, I don't feel like it's not healthy, just throw scriptures out there, say, well, Romans 13, end of story. Okay. Well, like even for believers, we need to wrestle with these words. It's not that we change them, it's not that we, you know, avoid them, but we do sometimes have to wrestle with them in the context of the of all of scripture. Psalms talks about God instituting governments, like governments are there, the Lord, you know, we need some sort of order. People of nations need protection, people of nations need defense, people of nations need justice. They are there, you know, obstensibly to do that. Uh, not all governments or leaders within governments do that in godly ways.

SPEAKER_02 15:24

You have to balance it out too. Yeah, we need all that, and they're throwing these verses out, you know, follow your leaders, do this, do this. But are you being peaceable? Are you being attractive? Are you know so there's always this balancing act of um how are we supposed to be as followers of Jesus?

SPEAKER_01 15:46

There's no cruise control where we just go, like people want it to be like, well, just tell me the answer.

SPEAKER_02 15:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:52

Well, that's okay, that's a rules book. The Bible isn't a rules book. The Bible is God's word to us, it's living, it's active, and we have to, he gave us minds, he gave us, you know, he assigned us to these times, he equipped us with the Holy Spirit. And so this is there's no like, here's your rule, here's your meme, here's the you know, here's the little tweet that's gonna settle everything. That's not how it is. You thank God those of us who take the Bible seriously. For me, it's like, look, you have to look at all of scripture and you have to look at the stories, you have to look at the commands, and you have to look at our times with with the whispering of the Holy Spirit. Yeah. And and talk to other believers. Other believers change my mind sometimes. I don't go, you know, like I listen to them and go, oh, all right. The when I say that, that's displays an insensitivity I have to that particular area or something.

SPEAKER_02 16:53

I love that God doesn't just say this, this, this, and this, do it this way. I love that he works with us and through our minds and through our wills and spirits, and we get to work and you know, really wrestle this stuff with him. I love that he does that with us because he respects us then to, you know, do this stuff instead of just boom, boom, boom.

SPEAKER_01 17:15

Yeah, he made us in his image.

SPEAKER_02 17:17

I love it.

SPEAKER_01 17:18

So modern Christians are known to say, which I agree with, no king but King Jesus, we are citizens of heaven. Um, but how does that play out in daily lives, life under various authorities? Obviously, we're more experts on how it plays out under American government. Um, Christians around the world have to apply the Bible to daily life under a wide variety of governments, many of them openly hostile to the Christian faith. So, you know, we kind of we have all kind of touched on this, but you know, what does that mean now for us? No king but King Jesus, that means we're not responsible to abide by the laws of the land because we don't like them or whatever.

SPEAKER_04 17:56

I was reminded when you had that quote, I was reminded of a story in 1 Samuel when um the Israelites were demanding a king. We want a king like all the other nations, you know, and then he'll he'll do this and he'll do that, and we want that, you know. And God said, You don't want that. And let me tell you why. They'll be human, and humans don't do so well, you know. That we always say power corrupts, you know, selfishness ends up even in, you know, somebody like King David, who started off so well, and it just it it they just were no, we don't care, we don't care, we just want a human, and there is that I I it's a fleshly thing, but everybody likes to have somebody to follow, everybody likes a leader, they can put their trust in and their faith in. But the problem is is that we have no king but Jesus, and he's the one who will do things perfectly, and so that's the that's where our loyalties lie, and I get very uncomfortable when I hear people attaching all their loyalty, all of their faith and trust in a human, yeah, because that's not gonna end well. It can't, and and so that's a really scary thing. So to me, first God's in control, second, my my king is Jesus. And and if I can get those things straight in my head, then how I respond to some of these other issues is more in line with where God wants us to be in terms of how we act and how we respond. So that that was I thought of when when I read that quote.

SPEAKER_01 19:34

Yeah. Of course, in our country, um, right now, like we are the king, the people. We have a government for, you know, like I it irritates me when people talk about the president in that role because that is not how our country's set up. We have checks and balances, we are we have a government by the people, for the people, right? Of the people. Um and so we are in the position of king in our country, which is where this, you know, that's where the the rub lies in how what what is our involvement. But um, you know, so like we have a leader, but we can impeach that leader, we can vote that leader out, we can, you know, we have a lot of options um regarding the you know, whatever leadership, and and every four years, you know, we can switch leadership, which is not where many other nations are in terms of their leaders. So we have we have to remember when we do this no king but Jesus, yeah, but like in our nation, we're we're king. So you know, like that's scary. What do we yeah, what do we, what does that mean? So like I agree, like people shouldn't, you know, God is sovereign. Um, and so that's you know, for me, that's my citizenship is in heaven, but I can't just check out either. Like, I can't just like, well, I'm citizen of heaven, and I, you know, like what Stacy was saying about the Essenes who are a group that pulled away, that's attractive to me.

SPEAKER_02 21:04

It's so attractive.

SPEAKER_01 21:07

I well, like I'm my hands going up. Um, it's very attractive to me to check out to like I I looked at baptism, you know, are there Baptist nuns? Like, that's what I was thinking of. Oh, like that's what I'd like to like just. I'm a very happy hermit, so I'd be happy to check out, but I don't see that I have, you know, in love for my neighbor and love for um the Lord, I don't see that option for me. Like I respect that there are people that the Lord, you know, gives that allowance to. I don't see that I, you know, others may, I can't. So um, yeah. Daisy, what's your thinking on this?

SPEAKER_02 21:43

Well, I love that that people put that on posters and walk through the streets, no king but King Jesus. No kidding. I mean, that's really easy to say when you live in this country. Duh. Duh, but you know, I work with a group in Pakistan and other groups that you know, missionary groups that they do. Have a king, and we don't in this country even know what it means to live under a kingly authority, what that what that entails. So, um, no king but King Jesus. Okay, is he your king? You're not acting like it. You're not acting like you know, he's your king. What does it mean to live under his kingly authority then? Are you doing the stuff? Are you doing the Jesus stuff? That so frustrates me because it's just a flippant saying. That's brilliant. No king but king Jesus. Great. Great. So I could check out real easy too, or else the other part of me would have been a zealot. I could have been a zealot so easily. I could have taken those scriptures and I could have just beat them into you, you know. So, you know, we have to, and there's people like that today still. There's a church in this area called the Zealots. All right, you know? So there's this balancing act that we have to perform. Is our King Jesus? What does that look like? He's merciful, he's just, he loves others, he cares for the poor. Is that what you're doing? I just have a really hard time with people being flippant about it. Bonhoeffer says, your salvation is free, but discipleship will cost you your life. What are you doing for others? And I think that would be something that Jesus would ask us as our king.

SPEAKER_01 23:26

It's just, it's not easy. We do have a responsibility, like in our America has a unique form of government, right? Christians are encouraged to participate in the system. Every citizen is America is encouraged on some level from praying to voting to um paying attention to knowing what the issues are to serving in local government right up to the presidency? So, Americans, we have a unique form of government. Um, so um, you know, we we can lobby, we can advocate. So, can a Christian be faithful without being political in America? Um, can Christians become involved in politics without getting corrupt, without losing their souls? Um, what are some biblical guidelines that help you with this question? What are some life lessons? You know, for me, I like a lot, I spend a lot of time these days talking to people who are panicked, like a lot of panicking people. And and I understand that the division is awful right now. But you know, it helps me not only to know the Bible and all the things that um believers in the Bible went through, but to understand some some of our history, some Chris, some Christian history, to know we're not even the first Christians to have this kind of division with each other. It's happened from the beginning, from the iconoclasms, you know, back in the early, early days to, you know, when when Chris some Christians came to settle America, others decided to stay, that it was that that they should remain there and work from the inside. You know, so there's all you know, uh Rhode Island was founded by Rhode Island was founded by the the um believers had such weird beliefs they couldn't get along in all the other colonies. So that's our spiritual legacy here in good old Rhode Island. Bunch of rebels, yeah, a bunch of rebels. So zealous, you know, like the the disciples had disagreements with one another and talked things out. There has always been conflict in itself is not wrong, and it is not even always wrong to divide, I don't think. I think there are times when there's truth over here and there's someone that you believe, no, this is really seems untrue to me. So then we cannot worship together in spirit and truth. And so I don't think division is always wrong. I don't think disagreement is always wrong as long as we handle it in a in loving, respectful ways. What are some of you know, you know, like Stacy started talking about it? What are some of your thoughts about what, you know, what do you think every Christian should be doing in our country, or we you know, toward the government and politics, and what are the options, what are the optional involvements?

SPEAKER_04 26:17

I was um reading Kathy Howard's books, uh a book on um the book of Acts that I've been going through for personal devotions, and one of the things she said, and you may have heard it before, but Christians are known for what they don't they stand against rather than what they stand for. And our first uh responsibility always is to bring the gospel and and to uh whether we say it out loud or whether we just live it out, you know, live it for people. But um, and I I was thinking about Ephesians 4, where Paul talks about we have a let me just preface this. We have a uh church, New Hope Chapel in in uh Napolis, Maryland, and we uh we have a lot of different political and some religious beliefs uh represented in in even just a small body. If you walk through any the parking lot at uh election, the big the big four-year election, you see all kinds of bumper stickers that say different things.

SPEAKER_01 27:17

Yeah, same in our church, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 27:19

Right, right. So so then you think, well, how in the world do you have you know unity? But but Paul talks about unity in Ephesians 4, and he says, there's one body and one spirit. You were called in one hope, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of law who's over of all, who is over all and through all. So there's a lot of one there, and there's a lot of things. So we in in our church, we don't allow the podium to be used for political purposes. Um, we just tell them you can talk about that amongst yourselves, but as far as you know what we're putting out there, yeah, same at us, yeah. It just needs to be. We're talking about love, we're talking there's there's a whole lot of things you can talk about that don't have anything to do with politics. And it's not that it's verboten. We have, you know, there are a lot of people that we just had a discussion the other night, one of the groups that meets at my house about politics. But it's it's okay to think differently about some things, but you got to keep coming back to, but we're one, we're one in all of these things, and that goes for the church, capital C. Yeah, yeah. The church of God has all kinds of believers with all kinds of doctrines, and but we're all part of God's family, we're one, and so we have to find common ground, and and that's Jesus Christ brings us right to the center. And so, you know, we we just have to be really careful to not let it become a division. You can agree to disagree, yeah, right? You don't have to set anybody straight, you know. Yeah, you can pray for them after the conversation's over.

SPEAKER_01 28:58

Yeah, they believe something different from you, let them. And maybe you're wrong. Maybe you're so we always target somebody else, but yes, I know. That's right, we should approach it all with humility, right? That we are that we can learn from one another, that we can yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 29:15

Yeah, for sure. I learned from both of you guys. Can a Christian um be involved without getting corrupt? I think that was what your question was. Yes, I think absolutely how you better be on your knees. What did Daniel do? He prayed three times a day, he was very faithful. There's a rabbi that people um used to call camel knees because his knees were so calloused from being on them in prayer. I think if you're involved in well anytime, but especially if you're involved in a worldly thing like politics, you better be on your knees and have some camel knees. Because it is so easy to be corrupted when you go in thinking you're doing the right thing and people are back patting you on the back, look at you look at you, and it's so hard to not become prideful and arrogant and thinking, I got this, and we need one another to say, no, maybe not, maybe not. So on your knees is what we do. And can you not be involved? Be a Christian and not be involved? Of course. Of course, of course, you can. There's no rules, you know. Maybe sometimes even more so. If you're in you can be more influential being quiet and loving and living, you know. So whatever God chooses you to do, follow it and just be on your knees. And what was that one? Laura, you said a uh quote the other day on something else. Don't let your success outlive or outpace your outpace your sanctification.

SPEAKER_01 30:48

Oh, yeah. Tim Challies said that at a conference, and I really respected that.

SPEAKER_02 30:54

That is so good.

SPEAKER_01 30:55

Yeah. See, I think that we have there are for in my mind some non-negotiable responsibilities. So we are called to pray for our leaders. That, you know, that's very clear in First Timothy 2, 1 through 2, that we are to pray for them. So whether that means that we have to pray for them in public ways or you know, we can sometimes that's kind of dicey, like to, you know, in the middle of division, to like because you can't not, I don't know, it's hard to sound really neutral unless you are absolutely neutral when you're praying, you're just talking to the Lord. So, you know, uh like I see that as non-negotiable. We are to submit to the authorities over us. Yes, and I think that that's you know, that's hard at times. That is very hard, but you know, there's mutual submission taught through the Bible. We are to be peaceable, and that means that where we can, we are to submit. So, you know, Jesus said, render to Caesar what is Caesar's? Jesus didn't come and overthrow the Roman government, the Roman government was brutal. And so he was like, There's a different thing happening here, it is a kingdom thing. Um, for me, conscience-wise, I knowing um the little that I know about what the persecution that other Christians in other countries are facing, I feel it's unconscionable for us not to exercise the freedom that we have. A lot of us defend our freedom, but we don't exercise it by worshiping, by reading our Bible, by sharing our faith, by doing the things, you know, that are that other that in other nations they'd be like, wow, you have all this freedom. You must read the Bible all the time, you must talk about Jesus everywhere. What a joy to worship every, you know, whenever you can. That should put us to shame because so many of us take our freedom for granted. So for me, that's not a specific scripture verse, but it's love and respect for my brothers and sisters who are suffering under other governments. That I take my freedom and I use it. I don't just put it on a shelf and go, look, I got freedom, like it's one of my medals. This is something I'm supposed to use because the Lord assigned us to our places and he gave me the gift of being here. So that for me is a non-negotiable in terms of like being involved, like heavily involved, like and I think that Christians should vote. Like, I know that there are Christians who sat out the vote, and I respect that too. Some felt like they couldn't decide, or some knew that they were uninformed. And so, you know, yeah, you know, I guess please, if you're uninformed, don't show up. Don't vote. That's easy to fix. But again, out of love for our brothers and sisters who don't have the freedom that we have, I think that that's something like, you know, consider whether or not you should maintain some form of being informed enough to vote. Um, but then I think the rest of it has to do with gifting. Are you gifted in leadership? Are you gifted? Do God give you the skills and the gifting and the drive and the personality to um be involved in politics, then then yeah. Then, you know, if but like again, do it on your knees, do it with accountability to other brothers and sisters for, you know, for your pride, for all the temptations that can come along with it. Um, but do it without fear, you know, and no, and like we have to really trust that the Lord will work all things together for good. This is what tests us. Let's, you know, talk about both administrations. We've just gone through one administration and we've switched to another. There have been Christians who've been uptight and upset and nervous in either administration. Both sets of Christians have to live without understanding that the Lord will work all things together for good, whether it's you know, all the, you know, letting everybody come in over the border or deporting them. The Lord will work all things together for good for those who love him. Do you believe that or do you not? So, you know, like and and I do believe, and uh, here's one more non-negotiable, I believe. We have to advocate for justice. Chris, every Christian is called to look out for the poor, look out for the oppressed, not to favor the poor. You know, that's God makes that very clear that we aren't to favor them, but to we are to look out for the poor, the widow, the stranger in our land to um to and to advocate for justice. That so when it comes to our vote or our voice, and that you know, so sometimes discerning justice isn't easy.

SPEAKER_02 35:34

Well, sometimes we, you know, we have to decide what justice God wants. Is it repudiate, you know, then is it repudiative des justice or is it mercy? You know, and Mishpat, where he brings people together and love, what kind of justice does he want there? And sometimes I think we're so far on to the excoriating people justice, justice, justice, instead of bringing people together, forgiveness, love, and mercy. So I think we have to decide in this situation what what do what does God want out of this?

SPEAKER_01 36:09

Because you made a sound, you just made it sound like justice is a bad thing.

SPEAKER_02 36:13

No, it's a good thing.

SPEAKER_01 36:14

It's just like sometimes justice, justice. What is like I misunderstood what you mean?

SPEAKER_02 36:18

I'm sorry. I'll clarify sometimes we think justice is to have somebody punished, punished, horribly punished for what they've done instead of this restorative justice that Jesus asks us to do between one another. And I think sometimes we fall too far on one side or the other. So we need to be balanced in that. And what would God want in this situation? Because I think sometimes he's looking down, going, You guys are all getting this wrong. No matter what side you guys are on, you're all getting this wrong. This is none of my uh hopes and plans for you. So I think more, we need to really think about what justice means in each situation.

SPEAKER_01 37:01

Yeah, I was gonna say, because I think like having worked at juvenile justice and stuff, we worked a lot with restorative justice, but we did that with um youth that wanted restoration and want and sought um forgiveness or sought, you know, were like acknowledge what they did. For those that didn't acknowledge that what they did had an impact on other people, or yes, you know, there were some that we could not do restorative justice with. And I see both of that in what Jesus talks about. That there are times when no, that person is just, you know, like when when Simon wanted um in Acts, when Simon wanted to buy the Holy Spirit, you know, they weren't like, hey, how could we work something like they were like no dude, you're out, like no, like that's you know, like you just want power, you see, right? And that's what um, you know, like I and I have to admit, like, I want power, I want I want power to me, it feels personally, I don't want power to rule the world, but I want power to influence people, I want power in terms of being effective, and I have to watch that exactly you know, I have to make sure I'm submitting to the Lord and not just um seeking the Lord for the power of the Holy Spirit. I can be Simon in a heartbeat, and so you know, always watching that, and um, you know, so yeah, I think that justice, you know, we are to advocate for justice, but determining justice takes wisdom.

SPEAKER_03 38:33

Takes wisdom.

SPEAKER_01 38:34

So we need to seek wisdom, and the Lord gives that generously.

SPEAKER_02 38:38

Yeah, without shame, without shame, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 38:42

Right. So anybody want to wrap up some anybody got stuff that they haven't said about our like introductory podcast about government and authority?

SPEAKER_04 38:53

And uh I was just thinking about how would I determine what's worthy of rising up or you know, whatever. And and there's several verses, many verses actually, where what God talks about what God wants loves, and and I feel like we need to love what he loves. Um, there's a couple really good ones in Isaiah 1, uh 17. Learn to do good, seek justice, rebuke the oppressor, obtain justice for the orphan, plead for the widow's cause. And then in uh Isaiah 58, 6. Um, is this not the fast that I choose? To release the bonds of wickedness, to undo the ropes of yoke, of the yoke, and to let the oppressed go free and break every yoke. And just God loves and and cares for the the oppressed. And when when people ignore it, he reacts very strongly. So, you know, we we gotta look for who we're trying to champion here and and know is this somebody that God would consider us stepping in and and um actually doing something, you know, whatever. Um, it's we just have to know what he loves. And he doesn't weakness. Uh he doesn't love power in us, he loves us needing him. And you know, and and so all of those things when we think about our relationship with the Lord, then that needs to be reflected in the things that we try to champion. Yeah, love what he loves.

SPEAKER_02 40:27

Yeah, and you know, he wants to free the oppressed and everything, except for John the Baptist. So there's times when in his in his plan that you know it's they're not free, right? And it's sad, so we have to find his purposes in that situation.

SPEAKER_01 40:46

Yeah, I mean that was his determination.

SPEAKER_02 40:49

Exactly. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 40:51

So we have to find his purposes to defend those who are oppressed or the sojourn or whatever is not to say, so here's for me the Lord's approach to humanity is the most equalizing approach. We are all sinners, we have all fallen short of the glory of God. We are all we all have a capacity for either sinful attitudes, sinful, like all of us. So it's a great equalizer. Without that understanding, you begin to develop a group of good guys and bad guys, and there are villains and heroes, and there are, you know, and and I've worked in a social service agency. And after a couple of years, the um the man who was my supervisor said, you know, I like I was so nervous about um hiring a Christian, which tells you something about Rhode Island. I was so nervous about the hiring a Christian because I thought you'd be super judgmental. He said, But I feel like after watching you, you're like the least judgmental, and I don't know how that is. And I said, because I start off with the understanding that we're all capable of sin, that we all need saving, all of us. And and a lot of my co-workers have this grid, and I don't and the and the rules change, like that's a bad person, that's a good person, and that for me that's confusing. Like, why is that person a good person? And why is that person that why is that mom a bad one? Like, I don't understand. So I think that that as much as people rail against the idea of sinners, it puts us all on equal footing, and so that like the government who's oppressing um somebody, the person who's oppressed, we understand needs Jesus as much as the uh one who's doing the oppressing. And that we all need that, and that even those of us who are advocating need Jesus to keep us humble and loving, and that's where it comes from, not from our just not because we're just so great people, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:50

Right to begin with. I see it, I like that just a little different. Um, I don't necessarily see everybody as a sinner, as everybody created in the image of God, and that's the starting point for me. That not that we all are capable of sin. Okay, you know, yeah, but everybody is made in the image of God, not one better than the other. That's what that would be my starting.

SPEAKER_01 43:12

Yeah, no, absolutely. We're all my um college professor told me, you know, when you start working with people, you won't be able to relate to some of them, but always look for the thumbprint of God in them because it's there, and so absolutely we're all made in the image of God, we all sin, we all need Jesus. We're you know, the Bible has a very thorough equality to that, and um, his grace, his grace is there, available to all of us.

SPEAKER_02 43:42

So amen.

SPEAKER_01 43:45

All right, well, this is clearly gonna be part one, and um we we just did one on sin, and we're gonna have a part two to that because there's just so much more to discuss, but I think it's good. Like, like honestly, I don't know if um you listening understand that we don't pre-discuss these, and we also don't usually know where each other is coming from on these topics, so we're often surprised or delighted, or you know, I don't know how you like I'm never like devastated or anything by what you guys are saying, but um I mean once in a while, Julie. No, I'm joking. But we don't know where we're going. We have we have a topic and three questions and then we show up. So, you know, don't be afraid to find two other mature believers or one other mature believer and try this yourself because the more we talk with each other, dig into God's word and um and do this in love, the better off um we're gonna be here in his kingdom.

SPEAKER_02 44:47

Yes, that sounds like a book, The Art of Hard Conversations. Huh. That would be a good book to read.

SPEAKER_01 44:54

Shameless plug for you. All right, thank you. We'll see you next time. All right, bye guys.

SPEAKER_03 45:06

You have been listening to Three Chicks and a Bible. Don't stop now. Keep asking the hard question. Check out our website at threechicksandabible.com where you can respond to this episode, find out more about the three chicks, and submit questions for a future episode. Subscribe to our show from anywhere you get your podcasts. As always, thank you for stopping by.