Sin, Shame, and the Church

Does the Bible’s teaching on sin heal people—or harm them? Why have so many Christians been wounded by the way churches, leaders, or families have talked about guilt, shame, and “being a sinner”? And what happens when churches stop talking about sin altogether?

In this honest and thoughtful conversation, we wrestle with difficult questions many Christians quietly carry:

How have Bible verses about sin been misused to control, shame, or wound people?
Why are some churches avoiding the topic of sin entirely?
What did Jesus and the apostles actually teach about sin, guilt, repentance, mercy, and grace?
Is there a healthy, Christlike way to talk about sin that leads to healing instead of condemnation?

Join us as we explore the tension between truth and compassion, conviction and mercy, and how the church can speak honestly about sin without crushing people in the process.

sin
grace
guilt
shame
church hurt
spiritual abuse
healing
forgiveness
repentance
mercy
condemnation
wounded by the church
shame culture
restoration
legalism

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:05

Welcome to Three Chicks on the Bible, where we ditch the easy answers, roll up our sleeves, and wrestle with the hard stuff in scripture. We're talking about the real question, the messy part, and what it looks like to follow Jesus. No fences, no filters, just three women chasing after truth, beauty, and the wild, untamable Christ. We are so glad that you've joined us today.

SPEAKER_00 0:35

Is there a healthy Christ-like way to talk about sin that leads to healing instead of condemnation? Let's talk about it.

SPEAKER_03 0:45

All right. Welcome to Three Chicks and a Bible. And here's the Bible. Here's the chicks. We have them. Here's the chicks. And sometimes when we're done with um recording a podcast, we think, oh, like man, one or all of us think, we should revisit that topic. There's probably more to say on that. So this is one of those revisit the topic. The topic we're revisiting is sin. And uh we're titling this, Do we even need to talk about sin? Uh or you know, or do we not? So that's what we're gonna cover today, and uh we'll see where this takes us. Might be a bit of a wild ride, we'll see.

SPEAKER_05 1:26

Giddy up.

SPEAKER_03 1:27

There you go. All right, ladies, girdle loins. All right, so when we talk about sin, especially in our times, we got to ask the question um what are some of the ways that people have been hurt? Um, sometimes people feel that they've been abused by Bible verses about sin by church leaders, family, other Christians, or I think particularly authorities in Christian settings. It's not always a pastor, it could be like the head of a ministry team or you know, the woman's leader or something. What are some of the ways that churches are trying to support individuals who have been needlessly wounded through um scripture, especially around the topic of sin? So thoughts?

SPEAKER_01 2:15

Well, we had a big time thing happen at our church a few years back. Somebody who was in leadership um turned out to be pregnant and not married, and so um there was uh it was a it was a shock. And um, and so we we didn't jump in the next day when we found out, but we were praying about it, trying to figure out how we're gonna handle this. But one member of the church got it in his head that he needed to go and confront this person, a woman, and um obviously he he went he went after her and um I mean stomped out of the room, angry, mad, kind of that kind of thing. And uh she was a wounded bird before that all happened, uh, because um she had experienced some serious trauma. And so she was trying to get herself together. She struggles with mental illness sometimes, and so it was just it was just a thing. And I just remember watching her limp out of there and um and wonder if she'd ever return. And she didn't for quite some time. Um, and so it was it was really bad. And he was just, and then he went around telling everybody that the elders had been um negligent, that they hadn't pulled her off the stage immediately when they found out the day before. And um, and so they, you know, he was going around saying, you know, they're not worthy of being in leadership. And so it was just like this thing. I was just like, seriously, what and and um it was bad. It was bad. But you know, of course there's a verse for that, of course there is, and so you know, he brought up fornication and you know, all the other things. Um, but I I think that God um that people can take the Bible and use it as a weapon, and and uh and so it is it is pretty it can be very devastating in how it's handled, and so I think it's good we're talking about that today.

SPEAKER_03 4:14

So you're citing that as uh an incident where you feel like someone you know needlessly hurt someone around the issue of sin.

SPEAKER_01 4:23

I felt it was.

unknown 4:24

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 4:25

Well, because first of all, you don't rush into anything, you give it time prayer, you give ask the Holy Spirit, what are we doing here? You know, it you can't just jump up and say, That's it, you're gone, you know. You know, because there were a lot of extenuating circumstances. Not that I'm excusing sin, I'm not, but um, because it has it has to stop because it's damaging. But uh, you know, just the way it was handled, and um, it was just not it was a very bad scene.

SPEAKER_03 4:51

And so and and and just to frame for our people that might already be triggered by what the even what we're talking about, you're not in any way saying that the pregnancy was a sin, but that it was uh it was evidence of her having had sex outside of marriage.

SPEAKER_01 5:09

Yes, yeah. We would we would have she miscarried, but we would have loved that baby.

SPEAKER_03 5:15

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:16

So big time and her. At least most of us. Maybe not this guy.

SPEAKER_05 5:23

Well, what's the bigger sin there? You know, we talked in our last podcast about is there a degree of sin? What's the greater sin there? What did he do? Right, he shamed her, he belittled her, he hurt her, he wounded her. He did not handle that in any way that is Christ-like at all, even though he might have been quote unquote right, maybe. I don't know what he said to her, but quote unquote right, he was wrong because he hurt her, and that's when Jesus gets the most upset, is when people are wounded, that's when whips and tables get overturned, you know. Whips come out and tables get overturned is when people are being hurt.

SPEAKER_04 6:01

Right.

SPEAKER_05 6:02

And, you know, so what is the greater sin there? People, people being hurt, people being shamed, people being labeled, that they are a sinner, not this is a sin, but you are a sinner, you're a Jezebel, you're you know, all that, and people put it into a uh context of you are bad. You are bad, and that I think could be would be the greater sin.

SPEAKER_03 6:31

Yeah, so yeah, so I think that there's been there's plenty of room. I don't think anybody here would disagree that um Christians through the ages have misused scripture at times really used it as a weapon, right? Like, and sometimes people even are well intentioned. You know, one of my favorite shows on PBS is um Grandchester, and you know, there's like the uh like the uh there's a woman, I can't remember her name right now, but she's she's um like she takes care of the priest and the and the curate. And she's got she starts out being very like, well, that's just that's just wrong. That's you know, and just saying hurtful things to people. And and yet as she grows, even in her faith, she becomes more gentle about the way that she says things and approaches things more, you know, she sees she becomes aware of her own you know fallibilities, and so she, you know, so I like that because I think that some people really do feel like they're doing it out of love. They feel like, no, this is just the truth. We're just telling you the truth, and the truth is this, and you're and that's sin, and you're entering sin. Um but you know, so you know, I think that the so people are are being hurtful, not because they're trying to hurt people, but there certainly has been a lot of abuse or hurtfulness because people use Bible verses to control others or to make them feel lesser than or to, you know, like Jesus, Jesus certainly said to the Pharisees, he was very they were hypocrites. If I'd been a Pharisee, I'd have been hurt. Like, so I don't know that necessarily having hurt feelings is the test for whether it's abuse because Jesus wasn't abusing them, he was right on, and they were supposed to be the leaders, so he was handling it in a certain way. Yeah, whereas he wouldn't necessarily handle it that way. He didn't, you know, the woman that was caught in adultery, he didn't like call her names or scream at her, he just said, you know what, now go do it anymore. Yeah, don't do that.

SPEAKER_05 8:38

There's a better way, yeah. There's a better way for you to live. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 8:43

Right. Like I live live with my my son's family, shares our house, and this well, all boys. I have all grandsons, so I got two older ones and a little one. If if they broke something that like I had saved up for, or it was a family heirloom, I don't have family heirlooms, but if it was, you know, or I'd saved up for it a lot of money, you know, like my computer. What if they broke my computer? I'd saved so much money, there's no way they could replace it and they broke it. Um, you know, I would expect them to come to me and say they were sorry, and I would forgive them and I wouldn't, you know, lose my mind over it. I might have a different approach to the teens than I do the two-year-old. But um it would not I would not unload on them the extent of the pain, like they would not understand what they'd done, the extent of it. They wouldn't get it. And I think that a different, you know, like we don't always understand as God's children, when we even as adults, when we ask for forgiveness, we don't see the ripple effect of our sinful choices or our sinful attitudes. Um, the Lord sees it, but I don't think He, you know, depending on our maturity level, again, when we're new to the faith, he certainly didn't dump all over me everything that I did. You know, I wasn't suddenly like, wow, and now that's wrong, and that's wrong, and that's wrong. I'm a loser. That's not, you know, that was the message I was receiving from the Lord. That's why leaders get a different approach than someone who already feels separated from God. I don't know. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_05 10:23

100%. 100% makes sense.

SPEAKER_03 10:27

Um, so what are some ways churches are trying to support individuals who've been wounded by other places? You know, like we're hearing this. I think the church is hearing this from people. We're not in church because of X. You know, one of the big X's is we're not in church because people have uh have abused, you know, like shamed people or you've done things that were terribly wrong. Um, so what are, you know, what are some of the ways that churches are looking to be supportive?

SPEAKER_05 10:57

Well, I think they're some churches are starting to change their language about how they talk about um sin instead of it being shame-based. You know, they're they're changing their wording and changing their, I don't know about their theology, but how they approach it. They it's whole person centered as opposed to topic, you know, sin topics. Do you know what I mean? So they're not just relating to, you know, sexual sin, which gets the most, the most um, I don't know, talking about whatever the word is. Yeah. We're talking over coffee here, right? I don't have to be like theologically imperfect in my words, right? So, um, so I don't think I think they're now a whole person and how it affects how a sin affects you, how it affects others, it hurts you, it hurts others, and I think they're bringing that, some churches are bringing that to the forefront instead of you're wrong, you're a sinner.

SPEAKER_01 11:58

I mean, I I think hopefully, at least our church does, we're looking at the end game. You know, we don't want to just deal with, you know, the immediate reaction of, you know, shock or condemnation or you know, whatever you would get right away. Um, and saying, What we what's what are we trying to do here? We're trying to get them off this path they're on. And it's a loving thing to do because sin leads to destruction. The Bible's very clear on that. And so, you know, just to stand by and watch it happen would be ridiculous because we know what's going to happen. It's not going to end well. So we want the end game to be that they get restored, you know, get off of that path and and and start, you know, uh, leaving that behind them. Um, so it's it is important. And so so there's that. And I think that that that reconciliation, I mean, that's God's goal too. Um, I think of uh the Pharisees in Luke 15 talking about, you know, why are you eating with sinners, you know? And Jesus said, Well, actually, the sinners are the ones that need saving. You guys must be okay, you must be righteous enough, which they weren't, but but you know, and just the idea of the rejoicing that goes on in heaven when someone who's on that path turns away and says, I need to get back with God, like the prodigal son, which was one of the three stories Jesus told, and said, You know, I I don't, I'm I'm just gonna go back. I can't live like this. I know I need my father, and I'm just going. And and what did the father do? He not only waited for him in the field, but he ran to him, which was a big thing of honor that that um that he ignored, that the son should have come and you know visited him, and uh, but he ran to him with open arms, welcomed him back. You don't hear one word about his sin, not one, from the father's mouth. And so uh that's the kind of God we have. You know, he wants reconciliation, he wants them off the path. Why? Because he loves them, and you know, so sin is not something that we would treat lightly because we know that it's ramifications in terms of how, like, like you said, people it's gonna hurt the person who's sinning, it's gonna hurt everybody around them. Who knows how far the ripples will go? And um, but Jesus is the hound of heaven, he's searching out those people and bringing them back in the fold, which I just love that idea.

SPEAKER_03 14:31

Yeah, yeah. I love that a lot of churches are reclaiming, you know. I think Stacey mentioned it last time, and I love to start here with people that we were created good, we were created in God's image, and that you know, like that's what He's you know, I think there's a homesickness in us for that. That you know, when you see something beautiful and there's just that ache in you, that's that ache for like, oh, I remember it. It's a ping back to the garden. Like, I remember that there was beauty and that I was part of that beauty, and that I was you know, included, and I want to be included again. And I think a lot of churches are reclaiming the language of um how wondrous God is and how amazing, you know, that that's not that that for a while, you know, the church lost that, and and yet to reclaim that and talk more about that is important. Um and and yet, like within that, to introduce, you know, to probably to have more um individual dialogue about sin, to present the Bible and let the Holy Spirit work, and then have individual conversations that you know, smaller groups are probably better places for discussing individual sin, one or two people, or you know, within a small group to talk about sin and what it looks like. But I was I've been thinking about um King David and how you know we love David and God loves David. The Bible says God loves David, and there's so much, and you know, it it's every Christian, every Christian refers to uh that David was forgiven for his adultery with Bathsheba and for you know however that came about, she had no power in the situation, so everybody knows that he was forgiven. We don't talk very much though about how A, you know, there were people that didn't survive his sin. Yeah you know, Bathsheba's husband did not survive, their baby did not survive, their son, yeah, there were consequences, and I also think about the fact that his sin is still what Satan whispers to people, uh, Christians, in the temptation to adultery. David was forgiven, remember that? You can, you know, you have a heart after God, and if you do this, he'll forgive you like he forgave David. I think that's part of the consequence of David's sin is this really long-term ripple effect of Satan being able to pull his sin out and use it as a tool with um, you know, with believers. And we have to know that that tool is coming and we and we have a way of escape if we need it from that. But um, but you know, like so anyway, I just wandered into a bunch of crisis. Let me get that.

SPEAKER_05 17:23

I love I love it, I know I love what you said about this calling back to um good because yes, we were created good, and we have that longing to be back in that garden setting, you know, that that wonderful coinia with with um God and walking with him. And so repentance is turning back to that good. And what's gonna get us there is grace. Grace brings us back to that. And how are we doing that with people? Um, is that what we're doing? Or, you know, like the story Julie was telling, you are wrong, you know, that man, you are wrong. Well, that took her away, that didn't bring her in. So the grace is what brings us back to that that repentance of, oh yeah, God made me good. I want to be there, back with him. I love that you said that, Lori.

SPEAKER_03 18:13

Well, and treating everybody, remembering that every human being is made in his image, the image of God. So looking for that in everybody, and you know, these days it's very, you know, there's so much ugliness out on social media, all everywhere. Like it's not even just on social media now, it's uh, you know, when we go to coffee with people, it's just you know, real hatefulness that is rampant. And we need to, like, that's when we need to, the church needs to be speaking more about like, look, we're all created in God's image. And so even when we think someone's wrong, we need, you know, that person bel is not only made in God's image, that person belongs to God. That is God created, you know, everything and He owns everything. And so I need to be res, you know, I need to be mindful of that when I talk about them, when I tr the way I treat them, the way I approach situations, even if there is wrongdoing involved.

SPEAKER_05 19:13

Well, even they're made in God's image, even the person that's not walking with God right now, he's even made in that image. Even the person that you can't stand, he's made in that image. Just like you. Yeah, I love that.

SPEAKER_03 19:27

And the Bible calls, you know, talks about common grace. You know, the Lord allows rain and sun and good things to happen to, you know, there's a common grace for our everyone. You know, so there is that common grace, and then there is the grace that covers our sins that comes through Jesus. So some churches, some Christians have responded to these hurts by eliminating all talk of sin or guilt. Um, you know, and and you get it, because you don't none of us want to hurt people. None of us want hurtful people, we don't want to be abusive, or we don't, and or we sometimes it's that we don't want to be thought of as being abusive. Um, after all, the good news of Jesus is about forgiveness and mercy. That is the heart of that. So, what are the advantages and disadvantages of just not talking about sin or guilt? Just you know, why do we have to talk about it? Stop.

SPEAKER_05 20:20

Yeah, so advantages maybe it um might help people approach God um easier than from this shame-based way of thinking, maybe just a thought. Um it pushes back against moralism, you know.

SPEAKER_03 20:40

So maybe explain what moralism is.

SPEAKER_05 20:43

Well, it's like moralism would be like this is the I'm putting it into very general terms, moralism, this is right, and this is what you're gonna do. So it kind of pushes back against that. If you have a better definition, go for it. That's just my basic one, but it it would push back against someone, you know, moralizing the situation all the time, right, wrong, black, white, but in a way that makes it like good person, bad person. Right, right.

SPEAKER_03 21:17

So I think that that's where it comes from. Like, like we believe there's yes, good and bad or right and wrong, but we don't believe doing first thing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 21:25

Good. Thanks for clarifying. Yes, thank you for helping me with that. Yeah. Exactly. So I mean that could be an advantage. I don't know. That's debatable. We can talk about it, you know, but that might be one of the advantages of it. I think there's a lot of disadvantages of it, though, of not talking about it. I think there's more disadvantages than say advantages because I think you can do it in the right way, which make which would flip it to be an advantage.

SPEAKER_03 21:50

Yeah, yeah. Because that was my question when you were talking like, can can you talk about sin without um using shame?

SPEAKER_01 22:00

Yeah. I think number one is that if we are burdened for somebody seeing something that's happening and we want to we want to be loving and hopefully discuss it with them a little bit, um we have to approach as if we're coming alongside, arm over each other's shoulder, we're not lecturing, we're not higher than them, we're not, you know, we're not morally, you know, superior. We're saying, I love you, and I'm seeing this, and it's it's worrying me because I know how this can end. And and you know, just be honest. The thing is, it's it's context is to everything. Uh, my husband pointed out, you know, if somebody said um you're going to die, it depends on who's saying it and why. If it's a burglar who's got you tied up in your house, that's very ominous. The doctor says it to you, he's stating fact. This thing will kill you, right? But it's not nothing ominous about what he's going to do to you or anything like that. It's just the fact. And then um, and then uh there's a third thing, you know, you're in in an intervention with someone you love, and you say, This will kill you. Yeah, that's not you. Yes, yeah, that's said in total love and concern. So it just depends on why you're phrasing it, how you're phrasing it, and the attitude that you have phrasing it. You know, I I used to be the editor of Arise Daily Devotionals, and um, I would not publish anything where anybody looked even a little bit preachy, um, because that's putting yourself on a pedestal. Right. And I'm that nope, not gonna happen. Because when you do that, then you are, you know, what we're the goal is is to get them off that path of destruction. That's the goal. Yeah, and and and it's that's gonna take love and forgiveness. And you know what, that's what Jesus told his disciples freely you've received, now freely give. Yeah, and and you know, there's a lot of verses um that I I found when I was thinking about it, um, you know, uh in Galatians. If a person's caught in any wrongdoing, you who are spiritual are to restore such a person in a spirit of gentleness, yeah. Each one looking to yourself so that you're not tempted as well, bear one another's burdens. So you're you're together bearing this thing, and thereby fulfill the law of Christ, which is the law of love. For if anyone thinks he's something when he's nothing, he deceives himself. And Paul says in Romans 2, hey, you're judging people for the very same sins that you do yourself.

SPEAKER_03 24:40

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:41

And so, no, that's not going to work out so well. And so, um, you know, uh, but each one must examine his own work. In other words, look at yourself first. Jesus said that in the Sermon on the Mount, the log in your eye versus this that splinter in somebody else's eye. Um, and then uh he will have reason for boasting, but to himself alone and not to another, for each will bear his own load. So bearing your own load, meaning understand who you are and what God has done for you. He accepted you, like Stacy said, because of grace. He's forgiving you because Jesus paid for the sin. And and all of that was a gift, nothing that we did. So now we're gonna want somebody else to handle their sin differently. But God's God did this for us, and that's really our bottom line. You know, we don't have the we don't have the let's say right, that's a bad word, but um, you know, we shouldn't be condemning anybody, we shouldn't be judging anybody. I mean, there's lots of verses on that too. And um, and just but come alongside, be gentle, you know, hear them out because you know, they're they're hurting. There's a reason they did it, whatever it was, and um, and we have to kind of help them. It's it, you know, like like with this pregnancy, that was a symptom of a real problem.

SPEAKER_04 26:11

Right.

SPEAKER_01 26:12

And so you had to get to the bottom of the problem. You we're not just fixing these symptoms, right? And that's what that's what bearing one another's burdens is all about.

SPEAKER_03 26:22

Yeah, I liked the whole like guy in the alley or the you know, the intervention or the medical. I liked that because like a lot of times when someone they're drawing blood, they'll you know, someone will say, Oh, I'm sorry. Like, okay, you're not like mugging me in a for my blood in an alleyway. Then you need to apologize. I've you're actually trying to help me, so no apology needed. And that's how it should be in the church. Like, I in an ideal world. Well, a friend of mine once um kind of exploded on me that I don't I don't recommend this. We're really good friends after a prayer service. She was like, I was like, I can tell you're annoyed with me. What is the problem? And she's just like, you know, do you think you're the only one who knows how to talk to God? Like every prayer request you gotta take and you pray forever, and then there's no space for anybody else. And you know, and so like that was sloppy, but like it really did, you know, me. I I realized like, oh man, like, and I knew at that point that like I did because, you know, just because of my past issues, I would talk a lot, but I didn't realize I was bringing that to prayer too. And so it did make me a better member in the church to like be sensitive to the fact that like maybe I don't want to monopolize the prayer time any more than I want to monopolize a conversation with my friends. Um, you know, like again, like kind of a sloppy way, but you know, like we're sisters in Christ. So like I knew she was just, you know, like, you know, I'd like to pray too. I I don't feel like I feel like sisters and brothers, we don't always say things like gently to each other. We we should be more gentle, but we can also, you know, sometimes we can be like, yeah, you're right, you know, that that did make my butt look big, and now I'm glad I'm not wearing it out of the house. Like, you know, those kind of things. But it's you know, it's hard. The whole the whole thing is hard. And some of it depends on how the person responds. And um in hard conversations, I talk about being prepared when you go to talk to someone, not only to be gentle, but also to have thought out. Like too often we put off conversations with people. Like if you guys on the church board had taken, like, oh, we're gonna, you know, we got nine months or you know, whatever, we got three months. We're gonna like, you know, we'll put it off and put it off, put it off. Somebody would likely have blown up anyway. So, like we do that, we put things off rather than saying, okay, I need to have this conversation. I'm gonna set a date in my head for when it's gonna happen two weeks from now, and I'm gonna ask the Lord to prepare me and I'm gonna think about some things.

SPEAKER_00 28:58

Right.

SPEAKER_03 28:59

When I worked with families, some parents who were trying to recover from abusing their children or neglecting them, I would have to say, okay, you know, mom or dad, here are your choices. Here, you know, here's what you've been doing, which got you here. Here are some choices for how you can move forward. Do you see other choices? And they would listen. And then we'd say, All right, let's let's walk those choices out a little bit and see where each one leads. Like, so this one, if you keep, if you don't change anything, like you're free to do that, but then the state's free to step in and remove your children too, because they they have rights, you know, and like in none of that did we do like how awful that you did that, because many times they were had been raised in abuse or they didn't know other ways. But we would just say, okay, so that's what that option looks like. What if you if you tried this one? What would that look like? What kind of support would you need? So I usually came in knowing, okay, what's the serious level, serious level of this issue? Is this an issue where I have to talk about these heavy consequences? Or is this just not a huge consequence issue? And we and there's some leeway for this person to deal with it differently. Same thing in the church. We should be like, okay, you know, so you know, you've been gossiping and they go, Well, I don't see anything wrong with what I've been doing, and I'm not going to change. You should have thought ahead of time, okay, so what's my step if they if that's their reaction? You know, because other usually it's just like, oh, okay, well, bye. And then like they just keep doing it and it's destroying, it's becoming divisive or something. So, you know, some of it is just like really thinking about stuff rather than like, well, I hope someone deals with that.

SPEAKER_05 30:43

I love that. I love like what Julie said, it has to be in relationship and community. I have a friend who's a pastor in Canada, Marg, and I can tell when when she is really perturbed by somebody that is hurting another person, or if they're hurting themselves, their sin is, you know, she'll she'll talk to somebody and she'll say, Hold on to your heart. I need to tell you something. So that's her way of telling you, I need to talk to you about you. Or if they've hurt somebody, you know, their sin has caused damage, she'll lower her glasses and she'll go, We need to have a word.

unknown 31:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 31:17

So you know what's coming. She pre she she prepares you for what's coming. And that's a good way of doing it.

SPEAKER_03 31:25

That's funny, that's pretty honest. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:30

We shouldn't be looking at ourselves as uh an appropriate judge because we're not, because we're as guilty as they are, maybe in a different way, but still guilty. And so we, you know, we're there's equal ground at the foot of the cross. It's all what Jesus did, not what we're doing, not what kind of holy lives we're leading. It's all him. We wear his righteousness, he paid for the sin. It's all him. So to you know, be after somebody to pull up their bootstraps and start acting like a Christian can ring false when you have your own things, you know.

SPEAKER_03 32:06

Right.

SPEAKER_01 32:07

Um, you know, but this is uh in James, he says, Do not speak evil against one another, brothers. The one who speaks against a brother or judges his brother speaks evil against the law and judges the law. But if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law, but a judge. There's only one lawgiver and judge, and it's he who is able to save and destroy. But who are you to judge your neighbor? We just have to keep the big picture in mind. Equal ground at the cross, um, love for God, love for the person, knowing how we're supposed to be helping someone um get out of the situation that they're in, and and you know, and offer that kind of support and you know, encouraging reconciliation. I mean, it's just gotta be that way. Otherwise, we'll be actually working against God.

SPEAKER_03 32:58

Yeah. So I like there's a little pivot that I would make off that, and that's we're we're talking about a lot of everyday sins, right? Like that within the church that we encounter in each other, that we understand, not that that they're not serious, they are serious and have implications. But I think that if someone, if a woman comes to us and says, My husband, who's an elder in your church, has been hitting me and hurting me, and in our council as well, like your sin is no different than his, and we need to work toward, you know, like the you think of the same words that you said that made a lot of sense just then. And you say it to someone who is being hurt, or you know, they're hurting their child, or they're trafficking women, you know, like obviously I don't think at some point we're dealing with, I can't imagine like a Christian trafficking, but like, you know, like it's possible. So then I think that there, you know, like there are times like with Jesus when Jesus was with the Pharisees, when he said, like, you know, if you lead one of these little ones to sin, like it'd be better if a mill, you know, a millstone was tied around your neck and you were drowned, basically. Like that's you know, like, no, like look, okay, you like I think the sometimes the first place to go with people, before we're talking about like, oh, we're all sinners, like that's it where you go with someone who's being victimized, right?

SPEAKER_04 34:24

Like that's like, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 34:25

So then then you say there's no place in in the planner there where God approves of you being abused or being trafficked, or you know, any of those things. And so our first step is to get you safe, and then you know, and then obviously we need to deal with the abuser on a different level, right? So I just want to honor, like, if people are listening, you know, like there are you know, who have degrees there are degrees of you know, where people should form a line and say, No, we're not gonna let you do that to our sister or brother or this child anymore.

SPEAKER_05 35:01

That's I had to do that as a pastor of a church. We had a man that was coming in and praying on older women, and I brought him in and talked to him one-on-one, brought him in with the elders, talk to him, and he was a he was a drug addict, and we offered him to go get um drug treatment, all that kind of stuff, and he refused, and I got up and I opened the door and I said, You're not gonna hurt the women in our church. And so I called all the churches around and I warned them about him, but you are not gonna pray on these people. That's not okay.

unknown 35:34

Right.

SPEAKER_05 35:34

Not okay. Thankfully, we had a police officer on our elder board, he dealt with that part.

SPEAKER_03 35:38

But because there are situations where sorry is a good place to start, but that's not the whole thing. Like, you know, John says, bear fruit in keeping with repentance. You don't just say, Yeah, that was my bad. Yeah. And you know, okay, we all forgive you and now you go home. Now, no, there needs to be now we need to work through plans and look at change behavior over a period of time. That, you know, so that's you know, I can see still where that can that walking that road still requires anybody who's helping someone through that, we have to remain humble and gentle and yet still say, no, we don't like it's hard to say, like your repentance doesn't seem sincere.

SPEAKER_05 36:22

And yet yeah, but what does Jesus say?

SPEAKER_03 36:24

But clever as a serpent, be wise as serpents, innocent as doves. Yeah, yeah. I mean that and so that's like maybe that's where we can end. What are some of the things that Jesus said about sin? Because because Jesus is the one, like, yes, he gets us. I love the I love the commercials that are out in the Super Bowl that Jesus gets us, but he gets us, but he gets us, right? Like, yep, there's a you know, he does get us. And so what are some of the things I you know, I thought of what Julie had said earlier that you know he didn't you know make any bones about it. I came to save sinners. He's like standing with a group of people, yeah. I came to save sinners. Like he wasn't saying that, like honestly, he wasn't for those who don't understand that he wasn't saying that the Pharisees weren't sinners, he's saying these guys know they're sinners, you don't, right? Like, and so if you don't, like, I guess I'm not here to help you. I'm gonna I will help anybody who admits that they know they're a sinner. I'm here for you, right?

SPEAKER_01 37:22

Right. Blessed are the poor in spirit, for they'll inherit the earth. That was his very first beatitude, because if we're not understanding who we are, what we've done, and dependent on God, it's not gonna happen. Yeah, it's not the kingdom of God. So uh that has to be the first thing is self-realization, right?

SPEAKER_03 37:44

Yeah, that I that I need saving, that I can't save myself, right?

unknown 37:49

Right.

SPEAKER_05 37:50

What's the for there the middle letter in the word sin is I. I I it's all about the the realization that I um am fighting against God's will, I am rebelling, I am doing this. So we gotta first realize it's about figuring out um how I am deciding what is right and wrong. You know, my selfishness before I look over at somebody else and see theirs. That makes sense. But so what did Jesus say? Jesus said, you know, love the Lord your God with your whole heart, soul, mind, and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself. If you're not doing that, that's sin. That's sin. And so that takes on all different um variations of darkness. Each one of us do it differently. What did he say about it? Do this. Do this if you are my if you are a follower of me, obey my commands, love the Lord your God. Love your neighbor as yourself. Are you loving yourself? That's one of them. And how can you love yourself? By following Jesus.

SPEAKER_03 39:13

Well any other thoughts about um sin that we haven't covered today. It's like such a I mean, it is a big topic, it's an important topic. It's one that we don't appreciate. You know, I think that um we talked about this for a moment before we started, the fact that um you know, we have to be careful about all the ways that we talk about all the things of God. You know, we can't be off-handed about it. But we also need to come at things from a reasoning perspective. So if someone not not every twinge of guilt in a person stems from abuse. I, you know, if I if I read the Bible or I teach from the Bible and someone feels guilty and they're angry with me at the end, if they have something, I will listen to them. And if they say, like, you used this story and that was, you know, wrong, like, you know, I I look at it sometimes. I'll I'll be like, I don't see anything wrong with that, and neither do like anybody else in this room. So this seems like the Holy Spirit working on you, and you're not happy about that. There's nothing I can do about that. Um, you know, if you don't want to change that, you know, okay, God will be patient with you. I don't like I've been in that position where I've sinned and I didn't want to change, I didn't want to give up what I was doing. I've been there. You're in for a rough road, you know. Um, but you know, so not every hurt comes from someone being shameful, shaming, or abusive. Sometimes it's just the work of the Holy Spirit, and there's a whole nest of stuff happening in a person, and we can acknowledge that. But I think there's always room for Christians to go before God and say, Yeah, was I wrong? Should I used a different thing, a different approach?

SPEAKER_05 41:02

But you know, and then I think maybe we can flip it too and say that not every guilt feeling that you have is sin. It's because of something sinful you've done, it could be trauma that you've experienced, it could be shame-based thinking. So that is something to bring to God as well.

SPEAKER_03 41:20

Yeah, absolutely. The accusation of the enemy, who then there's no like escape from that except to press into God. Like you, you know, you've confessed a million times and you still feel guilty. Like, okay, you were sip, you were forgiven that first time. So let's look at what the enemy is doing to you while you're letting them still whisper.

SPEAKER_05 41:39

Right. Exactly. Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 41:42

All right. Any closing thoughts, Julie? Are you good?

SPEAKER_01 41:46

Well, I just, you know, the thing about sin is it starts all most times, it starts something, you know, that doesn't seem like such a big deal. And um, you know, it's harmful, but nobody knows, you know, it's not hurting anybody else, just me and or whatever. And um, but then it grows and it uh it it turns into, you know, like an invasive vine. My friend, our friend Debbie Wilson talks about that. An invasive vine that goes into the garden and uh and we don't intentionally let the vine grow, but all of a sudden we look down and say, Whoa, there's a big vine here. We gotta get that out of here. It's killing all the plants. And so, you know, it can slip in like a small sprout, but it can choke the life out of everything around it if we let it grow. Uh, James says sin causes death. So we have to be really, you know, diligent about it. And if we see it growing, and you know, it's something that really does need to be addressed.

SPEAKER_03 42:49

Yeah, yeah. It's just you know, it's deceitful. Hebrews says that it hardens our hearts. The deceitfulness of sin hardens our hearts. And yes, so we don't want hard hearts, we want loving hearts, you know, and hopefully going to the Lord every day, going to God's word every day, praying, confessing our own sins to him. That's the front line for us as individuals, and then being open to mature believers in our life, listening to them and loving them. And hopefully we don't get to that place where someone has to work up the nerve to have a hard conversation with us or lower their glasses at us or whatever. But um, but yeah, I think that you know, to to acknowledge people is that there's genuine hurt out there, there has been genuine misuse of God's word against people. Um, but sometimes it's just um where people, you know, you have to have ears to hear. There's a generation of people now, not the a young a younger generation, but within every age group, there are people who don't have ears to hear. And they have different interpretations of what you know, they're hearing the Bible through this filter of um still being a rebellion against God. And so we have to know that they're there too, and love them and care for them, but but not necessarily expect to receive wisdom for ourselves back from them.

SPEAKER_05 44:11

Right.

SPEAKER_03 44:12

How we're communicating.

SPEAKER_05 44:14

Right. Good. Good point.

SPEAKER_03 44:16

All right. I'm good. Maybe we can pause on sin now for a couple of episodes.

SPEAKER_05 44:26

Pause on sin for a while. We'd love to do something fun.

SPEAKER_03 44:30

We'd love to hear your thoughts. We always want to hear what you want to hear about, and um, you know, we do want you to know that um grace is available in Jesus Christ and that you know, no matter what our sin, his love is bigger. Yeah, and he um he defeated sin and death on the cross and lives forever. Can't out sin grace.

SPEAKER_01 44:50

If sin abounds, grace abounds more. That's right. That's right. All right, thanks, ladies. All right, see you next time.

SPEAKER_02 45:00

Bye. You have been listening to Three Chicks and a Bible. Don't stop now. Keep asking the hard question. Check out our website at threechicksandabible.com where you can respond to this episode, find out more about the three chicks, and submit questions for a future episode. Subscribe to our show from anywhere you get your podcasts. As always, thank you for stopping by.