The Dark Side of Creativity in Music. It Can be Beautiful.

This episode dives deep into music, creativity, and the evolution of legendary bands. From Metallica and Deftones to Alice In Chains and Queens of the Stone Age, we break down how artists evolve, why fans resist change, and whether pain and struggle are actually necessary for great art. This is a real, unfiltered conversation about music, emotion, and what makes timeless albums.

🎙️ In this episode:
 • Metallica’s evolution from thrash to mainstream
 • Deftones’ album progression and sound shifts
 • Why the Black Album is considered a “pinnacle”
 • The controversy behind Load & Reload
 • Alice In Chains Unplugged and raw performance energy
 • The role of pain, addiction, and creativity
 • Personal stories tied to music and memories
 • Queens of the Stone Age & rock influence

🧠 What you'll learn:
 • Why artists must evolve to stay relevant
 • How different sounds connect to different moods
 • The emotional power music holds over memory
 • Whether struggle fuels creativity
 • How fans often resist change—even when it’s growth

⏱️ CHAPTERS / TIMESTAMPS
 00:00 Intro
 00:20 Deftones vs Metallica album debate
 01:10 Why bands change their sound
 02:15 The Black Album as a turning point
 03:10 Passion for music & audio engineering
 04:30 Alice In Chains Unplugged breakdown
 06:00 Creativity vs addiction discussion
 08:00 Does sad music help or hurt?
 10:30 Music and memory connection
 12:00 Queens of the Stone Age influence
 14:00 Dave Grohl & band dynamics
 16:00 Metallica history & band struggles
 18:30 Jason Newsted controversy
 20:00 Finding your passion in music

📢 About the Podcast
 Anything & Everything with Matt Reyna is a podcast where real conversations happen—from business and mindset to music, life, and culture. No scripts. Just authentic dialogue.

📌 Connect With Matt Reyna
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mattreyna2023/
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TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@mattreynaspodcast

#podcast #anythingandeverything #mattreyna #musicpodcast #metallica #deftones #rockmusic #creativity #musicdiscussion #realconversation

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Dude, uh, me and my friend were just having an argument before here. I don't know if you're how familiar you are with the um the Deftones catalog. I don't know. Uh so it was adrenaline around the fur and then White Pony, right? So White Pony was obviously when they like they just a series. So I know that you're a Metallica historian. Yeah. So uh you're uh kill them all, write the lightning, right? And then it's in just Justice for All, right? Justice for All. And then the Black Album. Right. So which how is your take on it? I know that what what I and it's crazy too, because there's one of the things I I was in the closet about too. Yeah, that I was um I'm a load reload fan, exactly. I love you. Don't know what I'm talking about. Uh load reload garage ink, dude.

SPEAKER_00 0:41

That those albums got like a lot of flack when they came out. Yeah, they cut their hair and everything. Yeah, it was like people were like, dude, they're they're changing their image, they're cutting their hair, you know, they're they're changing. And then the sound was really changing from thrash to more of a it was a different sound. They were, they were just, you know, uh, I think you have to evolve as an artist. I never, I don't think I ever anyone that I've listened to, I mean, different sounds, and I get it, dude. Life changes, you want to try something different. A lot of them write from experience, something they're going through, something more melodic, something heavier. I get it.

SPEAKER_01 1:13

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 1:13

Right? So yeah, I dude load, reload, I'm right there with you. I love those albums. Well, obviously, like the benchmark is the black album, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:21

Well, anyway, I was telling my friend, man, because um, I don't know if you're familiar with Around the Fur, but that has like Be Quiet, be quiet and drive, and it also has like my own summer and stuff like that, right? So the Deft Tones, it was like it's it's remind me. Is that the one with the the girl on the cover? Yeah, it's perfectly right between Adrenaline, which is the first one. That's a great album. Yeah, it's it's raw as hell, right? It's awesome. Um, you know, these are 10 out of 10s for me, but that's my favorite band. You know, uh, it's right in between that and and um like uh in uh White Pony, the way that they sound, but then White Pony comes and it's very, very like atmospheric and stuff like that, right? Yeah, then you uh had Frank Delgado, which is their DJ, and he just brought this like change in the house of flies stuff and all of that, right? Well, to me, that's like their pinnacle. Is that the way you see the black album? Like, is that I was telling Xavier that right now. The black album is the the holy grail of it's the black album, bro. There's only one black album, right? Jay-Z tried to have a black album, I was like, nah, nah, nah. Yeah, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, it don't work like that.

SPEAKER_00 2:20

I think so. I I would agree with you on that one. Yeah, um, you know, as much as I like their um older stuff, like Anjustice for All, Ride the Lightning, because of the thrash, because I I I like that thrash sound. I'm a big Megadeth fan too.

SPEAKER_01 2:34

I know you are, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:36

So uh there's there's a certain sound, but I I again there are certain days where if I feel like listening to that sound, that's what I think makes them great. Is you can wake up one day and be like, you know what? I feel like listening to a thrash album. And you could say that about Deathtones too, is I feel like listening to this sound today, and then this sound today. You know what I mean? I think that's that's great. So, but I would agree with you on that. The pinnacle, yeah, black, because again, to me, it was kind of this kind of like transition from okay, maybe not always so thrashed to more of a I don't know, a different sound, a different metal, a different rock.

SPEAKER_01 3:13

Can you can you tell? I I can, man, obviously, but like I I wanted to go to school for audio engineering, like that was my thing. That was my I which I'm still gonna do, man. Yeah, one day. I talk about like the the things that you're like, man, if if I if I want a million bucks or 10 million bucks, you know, didn't have to work anymore, what would you do? You know what I'm saying, for free. Right. And I would be part of like uh a recording process, yeah, right. That's what I've fell in love with. And remember how we would always like talk about um uh some kind of monster, and like when we geek out on that, right? Yeah to see the recording process that they had, stuff also too. Um, which one was the other one, bro? Saint Anger. Yeah, that one was crazy too. Yeah, but can't you see or can't you hear the um the budget? Like the budget in the black album. I was like, No, no, no, no, no, like it's just like who uh who produced that one? Bob Rock. I knew you'd know that. Yeah, it's kind of like uh Nevermind uh Nirvana Butch is is uh is doing that one and it just sounds so like grand grandiose, you know what I'm saying? Right, and um oh so also too, I was listening to uh what was it unplugged the other day? And you were like, dude, that's Allison Chains? That's your shit, right? That's your shit. And it goes back to that. Xavier, you uh the one that I was listening to, I was like, this is my homeboy Omar. This is his shit right here. The one that does um what does he walk out to?

SPEAKER_00 4:42

It's you had to ask me in the beginning. It's um I don't remember off the top of my head.

SPEAKER_01 4:49

Mm-hmm. Uh if I could find myself um damn it. What what is it? Uh anyway, so uh they're unplugged. It's um wood.

SPEAKER_00 5:10

How does wood go? Uh no, that's a heavier song. I was on a line.

SPEAKER_01 5:23

Uh that's like in the middle of the song. Okay. Um anyway, that was like your you said that that's your uh your version of Unplugged, right? Like I'm aware the Nirvana. Nirvana Unplugged.

SPEAKER_00 5:38

That's a great one too. I have, dude, I've had those DVDs, like they're worn out.

SPEAKER_01 5:41

That that's what I told you. Which one's which one uh which one would I choose?

SPEAKER_00 5:46

Oh dude, uh Allison Chains. Allison Chains? All right. The other thing, you know, it's crazy, dude, because like it's it's like super raw. Like you see um Lane Staley, the singer. Dude, he's in a bad way. Tell me about him, bro. Because I So I mean, addiction problems his whole life, man. Like uh drug problems his whole life, right? His musical career. I mean, and it was kind of like I think it was one of those, he was one of those guys where he couldn't really create without it. It was kind of you know what I mean? Like again, what kind of what he was writing, what he was putting together, he was either on something, or maybe speaking of you know, the experience, the drug experience, I guess. So you take that away and it's like, well, where's the creative outlet, right? Kind of like Hendrix. So yeah, dude, but in that if you watch him in that in that uh DVD, in that special, he has his his uh glasses on the whole time. I mean, he's skinny, and then he he fucks up, but he messes up at some point. Oh, does he? Yeah, and uh I think it's Wood, you know, he messes up, he messes up the words. And so Lane Staley, I'm sorry, uh Jerry Cantrell, you know, the guitarist, which a big fan of his if you ever listen to his solo stuff, Jerry Cantrell.

SPEAKER_01 6:59

I know you're Cantrell. Uh you know Jerry Cantrell produced the Depthton's album, right?

SPEAKER_00 7:03

Yeah, so that's crazy. Anyway, so uh anyway, so he messes up on the on the words and he's like, damn it, you know, and he's he's all pissed. He's like, hey man, it's all right, you know, we're good, we'll start again. And everyone starts kind of cheering because you know he's kind of kind of messed up, right? So like real self-consciousness. Yeah, and that was really, I mean, he puts his heart and soul into that into that performance. It's it's pretty cool, man. Because he, you know, you would think where he was, I guess, physically, like, I mean, he was strung out, you know, whatever. I think he could have very much just said, you know what, forget this.

SPEAKER_01 7:32

Where does that part of the um oh it's a nutshell, by the way. Nutshell. Damn it, yeah. Nutshell. Yeah, we should have known that. That's uh strikes against us for not knowing people metal heads are all like shit, shame on y'all, not knowing nutshell was first. Yeah, but um do you think that that uh the creativity is part like part of the process of the part of the process of creating something great like that takes like for you to be almost on the edge like that? I think for some people, yeah. For some people, right? Yeah, um, I'm a huge Mac Miller fan. Yeah. And um, some of his best work, man, in my opinion, was when he was a super dark place, super dark place. Yeah, and um, I remember for a while I was like in a very, very dark place, and I remember I would associate kind of the music uh music like that. Like I would listen to more I guess melancholy type of music. Okay, I would listen to I remember when I was at Willita's dude, I would listen to um Deftone Self-titled, which has a has a uh darker mood to it. I listen to Morning View, right? And then I would listen to Unplugged a lot, a lot.

SPEAKER_00 8:32

And it was just like the somber So I'll ask you this like Go for it. Do you think being in that head space, right? Because some people, even like I remember people saying, like, how can you listen to to that? It's it's like such a downer, or it's sad, or so do you think being in that place, like listening to something heavy like that, like like say something heavy or sad, whatever you want to call it, does that help you? Like, you're like, Man, somebody can relate, or this music relates to me, how I'm feeling, or do you listen to something uplifting or more you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 9:04

To get you out of that, that's a very good question, man. And I'm gonna answer it kind of uh in both because there's this part in 11 a.m. X, where you think he's like yeah, he's just uh like 7 a.m. He's just all like the the garbage uh truck beeps up and I start my day thinking about what I've thrown away. She's like, could I push rewind? Right, and then right, but at the end of the song, he's just all like love that song. Yeah, at the end of the song, he's just all like, um, I lift my head up and the phone rings. He's like, I hope it's you. Yeah, and it's like there's like a morning view. There's like a like, oh man. That's morning view, right? Yeah, it's uh it's it's almost like an uplifting part, like and then in that in that album as well, he's got like I wish you were here, and then stuff like that. And it's like, I think that's what music does for you, man. You know, it not only does it it uh it helps you kind of cope with what's going on because you have something that relates in art form, which moves you spiritually, yeah, but it's also like something that can kind of like uplift you as well. Like, like um maybe there's uh there's something else, or maybe there's something there, there's the next chapter.

SPEAKER_00 10:11

Yeah, like somebody could be like, I can't listen to that, it'll make me depressed. And you're like, no, no, no. I listen to that because it it it makes me relate, or I can I can relate to some of the lyrics and it kind of lifts me up. This is the sucky part.

SPEAKER_01 10:22

When I when there's uh when there's albums, man, that I'm very, very like fond of or in love with, but it wasn't during a bad time of my life. Yeah, so when I hear them, I'm like, oh, it gives me like it's gives me like a chill, dude.

SPEAKER_00 10:34

Like that's what I love about music, man. You can listen to something and it takes you back to that place, whether good or bad. But that's why I dude, when I listened to Lullabies to Paralyze, Queens of the Stone Age, 2004. I can remember specifically, man. I was like, I guess, fresh out of high school, pretty much. And uh yeah, dude, it was like some of the best summers of my life. Wow. Uh, and I I remember putting on that album and blasting it either in the truck or my friend's garage driveway. We played pool, and I listened to that album to this day, man. 20 years later, plus. Right. And there's just something I listened to it, and it just, dude, it lifts my mood. I'm just like, dude.

SPEAKER_01 11:18

Which one is it again?

SPEAKER_00 11:19

Uh Lullabies to Paralyze. Lullabies. So Queens of the Stone is just that whole album as a whole. It has uh Oh, I know which one you're talking about. Uh, what is it? So Lullabies is one of the songs. Um, what's the uh In My Head is one of my favorite In My Head, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:32

There's uh let me see which one I like on that one. Is um that's not the one, right? I wanna make it with you. It's not that one, right?

SPEAKER_00 11:42

That's yeah, I think that's threes and sevens, right? Uh got you. Yeah, that's a I know there's uh or Eravaris, I think is the one you're talking about.

SPEAKER_01 11:52

I don't know uh which one it is on that one, but yeah, man. Um dude, I know that we're both uh big queens of stone uh queen of the stone age fans. I was showing Xavier uh it uh the other day, yeah, and I was telling him, dude, that um Dave Grohl was on the first album. Yeah. And uh I was saying him that I don't know if you know this, but what's his name, bro? Uh the the the drummer of the Foo Fighters, the one that passed away.

SPEAKER_00 12:18

The blonde guy, yeah uh long hair. Well we're just talking about him the other day at work.

SPEAKER_01 12:24

Oh yeah, what I don't remember. Either way, so Tyler, Tyler, something Tyler, that's his name. Yeah, so either way, so um Dave Grows, like he tells Tyler, if I'm not mistaken, I might be messing the story up, but he's like Queens of the Stone Age asked me to fill in, you know, and he's just like laughing. More than Dave this, yeah, yeah. Or they're getting started, right? With Songs of the Songs of the Death.

SPEAKER_00 12:48

Yes, that was that was that would be well. I mean, they had some uh earlier stuff, like it was called like desert sessions, uh-huh. Uh where uh Josh Holm or uh he had just six different people come in, they would just record, he has like a ranch house out in the desert. Oh, cool, and they would go get like high on LSD and acid and just trip out and make music, dude. It's crazy. Whoa. So if you ever have a chance, again, kind of veering off, uh Desert Sessions, the CDs. If you find the music online, it's crazy, it's really cool. But he has a bunch of different people, but then from there, he went into yeah, Queens of the Stone Age, where he got Dave and Gotcha.

SPEAKER_01 13:22

Yeah, so he gets Dave, right? And Dave goes back to Tyler and he's like, Queens of the Stone. And Tyler's like, dude, you're part of our band. You know what I'm saying? And it's like, yeah, who wants to share Dave Groh? You know what I'm saying? And he's like, Well, dude, you can't like pass up that opportunity to do Songs of the Deaf with them, right? So that album obviously it's a 10 out of 10, right? Yeah, he goes, and then he's like, dude, I want y'all to come and watch us play, and they're gonna like debut somewhere, or they're gonna be like on on a it's like on a beachfront. I don't know if they're debuting there or whatever, but they're having a show. It's like in Malibu, I don't know where it is. And um uh Tyler's like, dude, like I'm there and I'm in a pissy mood, and I'm just all like, dude, you're telling me to support you with this this that may be like the like the death knell in in our uh the death nail, the coffee.

SPEAKER_00 14:07

He was getting Hetfield vibes. Like, wait, wait.

SPEAKER_01 14:10

Seriously, dude.

SPEAKER_00 14:11

You know, like the dude said, right? He's like, wait, what do you mean you want to do something else?

SPEAKER_01 14:14

This is what you're doing, and um what's it called? He goes, I go and I watch them play, he goes, and they kick ass, bro. He's just like, dude, they're fucking phenomenal. Yeah, Queens of the Stonies are are awesome, man. You know, I tell people that I'm I'm totally into metal, metal core, hardcore, all of that stuff. But if I could play any style, it would be more of like a rock and roll style, like the way that they play, more alternative, more rock and roll, more um kind of rhythm, rhythmy the way that they play. And I like the way that uh what's his name? Homeboy, kind of like Josh Holm.

SPEAKER_00 14:45

The way he sings, bro. Yeah, it's kind of like just awesome, kind of like psychedelic, funky, weird. Like it's got yeah, it's got a lot of different sounds.

SPEAKER_01 14:52

Xavier doesn't know that story. Um, you said you get the the the headfield vibes. So what was going on is after the uh black album, was it? Yeah, when you want to pull that shit after the black album, huh? He wanted to pull that shit. Oh my god. So uh it's Newstead, right? Right, Jay uh Jason, Jason Newstead, the basis the second bassist, right? Well, first and foremost, um Cliff, right? So he he replaces Cliff who died from Metallica. Did you know that? Xavier don't know shit. So so he thinks it's like well, he doesn't get into it the way that I do. I'm like, like it's a history book. Yeah, what the hell? Yeah, so um, dude, on a tour, their bus flips over and it it it ejects it ejects um Cliff. Yeah, like flew out the window, bus fell on top of him. The bus fell on top of him, right? They were all in there, yeah. They were all in the bus. The original you know that that shirt I have of Cliff? He's like he's like that. Um I have I have a badass Cliff shirt. So anyway, um, yeah, man, Cliff was like, oh, he was part of like obviously like Master of Puppets and you know, all of that. Does that badass solo? What's that solo he does? Uh so battery. No, he's in the jean jacket.

SPEAKER_00 16:04

He's doing that badass solo, dude. For the uh, so he he would have done that for uh the four horsemen? Is it yeah? I think so. But remember, in so he does battery, the bass solo on that is insane. Yeah, and so if you're looking at talking about um some kind of monster, when Rob goes and tries out, they're like, and he's not even warmed up. And he's like, Did you bring a bass? He's like, No. He's like, What do you got? Well, we got some five string, we got some seven string, and just give me what you got, man. He's like, What do you want to start with? Try battery, and they're like, You want to start with battery? Off the rip, yeah, and then and so he starts playing, and they're like, Uh, this is yeah, cancel all the other appointments as a guy. Seriously, yeah, going back to that, yeah, dude.

SPEAKER_01 16:46

So, um, so then um Jason, um, after so he becomes the bass player of Metallica. Then after the black album, he wants to do his own like side project, he wants to create his own other band, all like Chino and Team Sleep type thing, right? But uh uh James Hetfield's like uh uh it's Metallica dog, and that's it. Like, how could you want something more than Metallica? Yeah, you know what I'm saying? And it's just like he's like, bro, what did he want to make? What was the name of it?

SPEAKER_00 17:18

Uh he ended up doing man, I don't remember.

SPEAKER_01 17:21

It's something weird, right?

SPEAKER_00 17:22

It was it was kind of a weird, funky thing. Uh, he was the bassist uh in that band too, but uh I don't remember what it was called. So um but it in that documentary they show him, they actually go. It's weird because uh Lars and James and Kirk goes to Portal Club there in LA and they're watching it and they're like, Yeah, we're here, and and they're kind of getting ignored. They're like, We're here for Jason, they're like, Oh yeah, and they just no way, yeah, and and and so I don't even think Jason comes out and like says anything to them after the show. They're like, and they're looking we're like, we're looking for Jason. Where's he at? And he's like, Oh, he already left, man. But if you want to hang out with us, like you know, sort of thing. Yeah, like since you seem to know him, yeah, yeah, yeah. You look familiar, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:03

But that didn't pan out very well for him. But I mean, dude, imagine, yeah. But at that point, what do you do? Do you follow your passion project? Like, but you gotta ride the wave of Metallica, though, dude. Like, come on.

SPEAKER_00 18:14

I think it probably had it probably had more to do just the inner workings of it. I think headbutting egos, maybe.

SPEAKER_01 18:21

Well, from what I understand, I mean, their writing process, I mean, it's James Lawrence and that's it. Yeah, well, Kurt, Kurt writes, right? But at the same time, I hear that they were like hazing uh Jason a lot, and they're just like putting him through it because they were like, I I from what James says is that they're like, um, dude, like they're really messed up after Cliff. You know what I'm saying? Like, it's it's like losing a brother or whatever, yeah. The original member or whatever. So like they just start hazing this dude and they start like treating him like the stepchild of the whole thing, and he's just like he never feels included. It's a it's a it's a crazy story, dude. It's a crazy story. He was there a while though. Yeah, he was like more than 10 years, right? Yeah, so then um then our boy comes in. Yeah, uh, Rob through heel or brute Rob through heel is uh basis for Ozzy. Yeah, who else? Suicidal tendencies, suicidal tendencies, yeah, bro. So in uh that doc documentary, some kind of monster, it shows people trying out. There's some prominent people too, right?

SPEAKER_00 19:26

Yeah, like uh what is it, like Pepper Keenan from Corrosion of Conformity, and then uh some uh the homeboy from Maryland Maryland? Yeah, so Twiggy. Twiggy. Uh the guy from uh Jane's addiction. Yeah, there was a I mean there was some big names, they weren't bringing in just anybody, dude. Those are heavy bands, man.

SPEAKER_01 19:43

Like those are top of the yeah, top of the line or top of the list, top of the bill. But once he went in there, he killed it. Then this they're like that's in and he just smokes them. Yeah, crazy.

SPEAKER_00 19:52

They're like, Do you need a pick?

SPEAKER_01 19:53

He's like, nah, man.

SPEAKER_00 19:54

Like it's just yeah, man, he's badass. That's dude, that that's a super good. I I love that documentary. I could watch it, I've watched it a million times.

SPEAKER_01 20:01

It's so funny, man, because I get in that my own little world when it comes to that, and I can only talk to you about it, man. Yeah, yeah.