Crash Out With Me: Toxic Bosses, Real Consequences

Your boss should never get to be the loudest voice inside your body, yet so many of us live with work stress that shows up as migraines, panic, brain fog, poor sleep, and a nervous system that never powers down. I sit down with Dr. Claire, a leadership and mental health expert, and Sophia, a reinvention strategist, to talk about what toxic leadership and toxic workplace culture actually cost us and how we start taking that power back. 

We get honest about the health impact of poor management, why hustle culture trains us to tie self worth to job titles, and why “resilience” can feel like a weapon when Black women are expected to endure conditions nobody should have to survive. Dr. Claire breaks down why boundaries protect your credibility and your nervous system, and why community care is more than friends, it can include therapists, doctors, and culturally responsive healthcare that finally listens. Sophia shares practical steps for career pivots and exit planning that don’t rely on fantasy advice like “just quit,” especially when the job market is tight and responsibilities are real. 

You’ll leave with concrete boundary ideas, a clearer way to separate identity from work, and a reminder that joy, rest, play, music, and your people are not extras, they’re protection. If this conversation hits home, subscribe, share it with a friend who’s burned out, and leave a review so more people can find support. What boundary are you ready to hold this week?

Dr. Claire Green-Ford LCSW: 

ttps://www.linkedin.com/in/dr-claire-green-forde/

Sophia Husbands:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/sophiahusbands/

https://sophiaworld.co.uk/

 sophiaworld.substack.com 

Transcript

Welcome And What We’re Crashing

SPEAKER_02 0:01

Okay, and we're live. Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Crash Out. My name is Madison Butler, Maddie B for short, if we're friends. And this is my show. The reason I started the crash out was to remind everyone that everyone has something that they're crashing out about. Everyone has something that is burning their beans today. And all of that comes to work with us. And so today I am so excited to talk about some of my favorite topics. But first, I would love for my guests to introduce themselves. Would you like to go first, Dr.

SPEAKER_01 0:32

Claire? Sure. Thank you so much for this opportunity. My name is Dr. Claire. I am the founder and CEO of Dr. Clare Speaks, a thought leadership advice and advisory that helps organizations and leaders become worthy of the people inside of their workplaces. That's my whole mission. I firmly believe that leadership is a pivot point, and I speak and train at the intersection of leadership, mental health, and organizational culture.

SPEAKER_02 0:58

Thank you. And what are we crashing? What are you crashing out about today?

SPEAKER_01 1:02

There are so many things to crash out about, but I'm crashing out about his poor leadership and the impact on people's overall health and mental health.

SPEAKER_02 1:09

We love to see it. Thank you. And Sophia, could you give us a little bit about you?

SPEAKER_00 1:13

Okay. Hi, I'm Sophia and I'm a reinventured strategist. So I help people typically who are like um mid-life, had like a corporate career, change from you know being corporate to being like a service provider, or maybe they want a downsize of their life. So maybe they burnt out and they realize, you know what, life is short. I want to travel and work. And I also help people who are unemployed too. So I work with larger big sector charities or organizations, helping people bridge the gap with their skills and encourage people that you do not need to typically go for the corporate type of work. It could be service-like skills, skills which are not adjacent to what they were doing in their day-to-day job. And I'm also a writer, too, as well, a lifestyle and wellness writer. Um, what am I crashing out today? It's a really good question, but it's to do with you know the action against the hustle. So I'm I'm for anti-hustle type of culture because I've noticed this in feeds, people feeling really pressurized, saying this post has to do this, that person, and it's affecting some people's nervous systems.

SPEAKER_02 2:39

Well, thank you. And listen, nothing burns you out faster than having a bad boss. I think one of the most tragic things of the last 18 months is we've seen such a hard pivot in what war kind of felt like in 2020. In 2020, it kind of felt like there was this bright light of like, oh, they finally realized we're people with families and pets and lives and feelings. Because all of a sudden, all of us were having this collective experience where we were light selling our groceries and

Bad Leadership Harms Your Health

SPEAKER_02 3:05

trying to work with our kids, we're trying to work with our dogs. And also there was collective fear. Everyone was experiencing the same emotions at the same time. And so there was this like spot where I was like, yes, we've made it, all of this work that I've done. We've we're here. However, in the last 18 months, we've seen a really hard pivot back into obviously employer-dominant landscapes, a really big push for the hustle. And in turn, watching people burn out paired with watching black women be not so quietly exited from corporate America in really, really large numbers, only to be invited back in, if invited at all, at much lower levels than they left. So I would love to talk about what it actually means to your mental health when you work for a toxic boss or you work in a toxic environment. And so I guess Dr. Claire, when we think about what that means, what is the impact on us when those are the systems we're navigating?

SPEAKER_01 4:00

Our life. That's the best way I can say it. I mean, to just start, I think often we think if we keep pushing through, it's gonna get better. But you know, globally, 70% of people say that their managers impact their mental health more than their doctors and their spouses. That's global research. The fact that your boss impacts your mental health. And that when we look at those, we're talking about brain fog, we're talking about early mortality, we're talking about for especially for women and black women, we're talking about reproductive health challenges, autoimmune disorders, the onset or exasperation of hello, I have them. We're talking about depression, anxiety, we're talking about literally someone's lifespan. And this is epigenetic. It is passed down from generation to generation. We have been told so much to just keep grinding. And that's not possible. We are not flower to be ground, but yet we keep grinding ourselves and thinking that we're gonna get some reward from it. And the only reward that we get is an early gravestone or the conditions that are debilitating. There's a reason why we have higher incidence of depression, there's a reason why, when you look at the black diaspora in particular, and if my go beyond that, we have higher incidences of fibroids. Our body is responding to the violence of this society and this world, and toxic bosses and horrible bosses and his poor leadership is absolutely accountable for it. It should, if we made toxic workplaces and toxic leadership a crime, we would absolutely see the reduction because people have literally died and continue to die as a result of this. So that's what the impact is on a high level, not even talking about systems and families and people's livelihood.

SPEAKER_02 5:49

So when you think about what that means for us, right? So I think one of the big problems is it's not illegal. Some people thrive in being a bad boss. They love that proximity to power. They love what it means to them when they make you feel bad. Um, I wish that wasn't the case, right? But there are some people who truly get a thrill out of that. You and I were just talking before this call. One of the things I know about myself is like I really do this shit. I do it well, and I'm very smart. I've always been that way. And I think I just told you I had a boss that kept telling me they questioned my intellectual capabilities because I asked questions. And A, I ask questions because I'm I'm neurodivergent. But two, I like answers, right? I like information. But that was the response to them being threatened by me in some case, in some capacity. And they enjoyed making me feel bad. But there's nothing you

Toxic Bosses And Power Dynamics

SPEAKER_02 6:35

can do because of the power dynamic in the situation. So, Sophia, what are some of the ways when you're thinking about, okay, I have a toxic work environment or I can go do this thing by myself? How do you help people navigate the grief that kind of comes with deciding I'm gonna lead this career that I've put so much of myself into?

SPEAKER_00 6:55

Yeah, so it's it's a good question because I also experienced this myself in terms of being in corporate world and what you were describing, Madison, about speaking to your boss, because I'm a person who's very inquisitive. And one of the reasons why I left accounting years ago is because when my last project, I had a manager and he's really rude. So when I was coming up with suggestions and how we could pre-processes efficiently, he would just shush me, which is you know quite rude. And that was one of the things which led me, you know, to leave that career. But in terms of my clients who come to me who feel a little bit anxious or stressed out, is one of the things I say and I recommend is you know, acknowledging, you know, that the trauma, because it does sink into you, because I think that's the thing, especially culturally, in terms of you know, people of colour, women of colour, that we're meant to be strong. And I've heard words over the years like stoic, which you know used to annoy me a lot, too, stoic, you know, it's almost like they make it out like I'm a superhuman, superwoman, and I have feelings too, and it does take an impact on you. And in terms of perspective of what you were mentioning with the opening, towards the statistics, you also have things to do with like perimenopause in terms of women too, as well, because that had that affected me too, as well. In one of my corporate career, is my confidence started to get affected because I realized I couldn't operate in the way I used to, like working evenings, working weekends, and then I had an ill parent too as well. And so, in terms of the demographics, the middle, you know, midlife women. So I'm talking about maybe late 30s onwards, who come to me. Sometimes they're very burnt out. And what I tend to do is I advise them, you know, to speak to someone, a professional, because I always say speak to someone who's skilled in that area. I'm never some areas I'm skilled with in terms of the coaching around it and the mentoring, but I always say that you need to address the emotional health and don't blame yourself too as well, because often we could get into that sort of guilt in terms of oh, I have to step away. So I would say number one, address your emotional health because it does stick there, and if you don't deal with it, it could come out in different ways in terms of what we know with burnout, exhaustation, people not being able to operate, you know, for example, in terms of work. So, in terms of my clients, I re recommend that they focus on emotional health, be kind to themselves, you know, be gentle to themselves about the situation, and then I help them like look at you know, what is it that you like to do as the next step. So it might be the case that they want to stay adjacent or in the industry they're in, and that's fine. So there's two ways of doing it. People, if if the workplace is very toxin, it's detrimental their health, and I would not recommend they're staying there in that environment because you want to feel safe. But of course, people's circumstances are always going to be individual, like they might have commitments, which would be children, maybe, or even to elder parents. I'm just saying hypothetically. But what I recommend sometimes is doing like testing, so start maybe they sideline or picking up that work because it then gives them that confidence rather than that exit of abruptly leaving their industry. So I would never advise someone just to crit like that. We'd we do different factors and look at safeguards, and if it's best for their well-being to leave, then we could start mapping their exit route. So that's part of the work I do my clients sometimes, depending on the situation, is look at their exit routes. So it could be maybe looking at their pension, because we have to be practical and then go through steps. So I hope I hope that wasn't you know too long an explanation. But I do I'm I'm like what someone, a journalist, said last year, interviewed me in the UK, the pragmatic one. So I like to look at things and not be like one of these gurus online who sometimes give misinformation when they say, quit your job. And that's not very responsible at all, because can imagine leaving your job and not having a backup or buffer that of course more mental health issues, you know, because of anxiety. So that's that's the sort of steps I do. So number one is emotional health, and then let's number two, let's look at your exit plan. Is it gradually or is it abrupt, depending on your circumstance?

SPEAKER_02 11:34

I love that. And it's really it's been really interesting. I feel like my algorithm understands me these days because I've been fed a couple of interesting articles. One I got yesterday that was quitting your job for a boring job is actually very good for your mental health. And then the other one was a woman who was a product manager who she made well over six figures in corporate and was she's a black woman and was just so burnt out that she quit her job kind of cold turkey and became a barista at Starbucks. And originally I thought we were in the wrong place because she was like, all of the terrible things that happened to me after I did this, and all of them were like, I don't have any stress anymore. I don't think about my job at night. And I wonder, oh my God, what is that like? One of the things that I noticed about myself over the last year was I was actually getting really terrible tension headaches. And I was like going through a bunch, I was like, is it because I sit with my laptop on my lap? Is it because I'm not wearing blue light glasses? And I just got to this point, probably somewhere around September of last year, where

Grief And Planning A Career Exit

SPEAKER_02 12:30

I was just like, I need to care less. And I don't mean care less about my craft or the work that I produce. I need to care less about outcomes that I cannot control. I have to care less about if these people like me or not because I don't really like them either. And we're not hanging out on Saturdays. Why do I require your acceptance? You're just my boss. I just need to be like, yes, you did the right thing. No, you did the wrong thing. And that that's as far as our relationship actually needs to go. And what do you know? When I got into this space where I started caring less, my headaches went away. So, Dr. Claire, when we think about obviously there's tons of emotional and physical detriment to being in a toxic work environment. However, so many of us can't leave, right? Obviously, because the job market is not great, super not great if you're a black woman. And entrepreneurship isn't for everyone. And I'm never gonna be the person that's like, go start a business, even though I think you can probably do it. But what are some of the tips and tricks for people who are navigating toxic work spaces? How can they kind of find more space for themselves and keep themselves well while still having to navigate?

SPEAKER_01 13:34

Boundaries of your friend outside of the space of abuse and exploitation, the only person that can violate your boundaries is yourself. So my boundaries, I only work till 5:30. Unless there's some emergency or some coercive something. If I choose to stay till seven because I feel bad or there's pressure, I'm violating that boundary for myself. And I know that that sounds sometimes hard because we often feel but what if? But the reality is that the what if sometimes never comes. But what absolutely comes is this stress is catching up with your life. This stress is catching up with your sleep. This stress is catching up with your productivity, this stress is catching up with how you interact with your family and your loved ones, you snapping at your children, you snapping at your partner, forgetfulness, lack of productivity, lower innovation. Your brain, as many people, I just want to also demystify right now, we do not multitask. There's no such thing as multitasking. Literally, it is a misnomer. We switch from task to task very quickly. Executive functioning cannot do multiple things at once. It's why texting and driving is not recommended because you can't do these things. And so one of the things I say is putting some boundaries in place. And that may be that you are giving yourself five minutes. A lot of times we think we have to go to the extreme. It's the diet that you want to do, it's the working out, it's the I'm not gonna speak to this toxic family member, and we think it's all or nothing. You can put some buffers in place, and it's something I'm still learning. There's never I've arrived at this because every time you arrive to a level, there's a new devil, and people are gonna people go try it. People go try you. And sometimes you have to recognize that the best thing that you can do for yourself is put some boundaries in place. So, what does it look like to say, yeah, no, that's not my issue? I work so you talked about toxic workplaces. I have worked in a lot of spaces, and when I tell you, there's one person in particular, there's many, but I call her Satan's daughter. I have one of those like Satan, like this woman was Satan's daughter, and I am a mental health practitioner by training, even though I don't do direct practice anymore. My work is system level and organizational level. This woman got joy out of tearing people down. I mean, we were working in a space where we have to be there at seven in the morning. When she was firing someone, she was there with her Starbucks, she was all peppy and cherry, all of this stuff. I mean, just demonic. I had never in my life experienced someone that loved to tear someone down like that. And I remember us getting into an argument. Then I also found out about the secret file she had about me when I was helping her take stuff to her car. It her the box dropped, and then there was a secret folder. She was trying to keep all these things about me. Interesting enough, there was a woman who, so I'm in New York City, the Brooklyn and the Bronx.

unknown 16:24

That's far.

SPEAKER_01 16:25

That's two hours on the subway, depending on how the number two training wants to run. And we had a staff member. We are in Brooklyn. The staff member lives in the Bronx. Her mother and her were passing ships. The long and short of it is we had an audit coming up. This woman literally wrote this staff member up and to terminate her because she was unable to stay late. And she said that that was a lack of effort and team. And I said, Do you think she should get a child welfare case? She has to travel an hour and a half, an hour, two hours to the Bronx. Her mother, she has to be home by four. Her mother leaves at 4:30. So they're literally passing each other for child care. Her mother takes care of her son during the day. Once she gets home, she's on. Her mother goes to work for a four to 12 o'clock shift. She should risk a child welfare because she had boundaries. And I remember literally arguing with her, like, you are like, this is evil. But I said to her, you're angry about the boundary. But sometimes when we've put boundaries in place, and I'm saying this story to say, I know it's hard, but what is it worth? Was it worth this person potentially getting a child welfare case for leaving their child unattended? Who was four, by the way, and cute as a button? Because some woman wanted you to stay late because we're being audited. I tell organizations audit mode is all day, every day. If you operate as you're in an audit mode, when the auditors come, all you do is say, Hey, here's an office you could be in. You want coffee, you want water, here's the bathroom, peace out. You operate like that. But boundaries are so important. And so I know that's been a while, but this is boundaries for yourself and for others, for your mother, your brother, your partner, your honey, the person you don't boundaries. They're not that hard. No is a full sentence, and it doesn't even require a full stop. It doesn't just know we feel bad about things that we're not able to do. But the only person that's suffering from that is you. You're the person losing sleep. You're the person with the headaches. I've had migraines since I was 14. You're the person with the autoimmune disorders. I got diagnosed with autoimmune disorders after navigating toxic workplace cultures for years as a black immigrant woman. I can tell you right now, all of the advice I got about keep showing up and grinding and you're gonna have to work five times as hard. What that has left me with is losses that are so unimaginable relating to my health and well-being, it was not worth it. My womb wasn't worth it. My mental health wasn't worth it. The pain I'm physically in right now is not worth it. I continue to live with this gift of toxic workplace cultures because I didn't have boundaries and because even people that look like me, while well-intentioned, gave me bad advice that they got because we were trying to survive in a system that was never built for us in the first place.

SPEAKER_02 19:18

1000%. And it's funny as you're saying that over the last year, and so it's interesting. And in a couple of episodes ago, we talked about luteal phases and how terrible they are. But over the last year, my period has gotten way, way, way, way worse. Like physically, like my cramps make me want to actually like call an ambulance. And now I always chopped it up to well, I got a tubal, and so like maybe I have scar tissue. And now I'm like, wait, maybe it's because people are mean to me at work. So, you know, it's interesting that you say that because boundaries are the key. But I would love to hear your take on what happens when you set a boundary and then you ignore that boundary. How do people respond to that, right? Because you say, Oh, I'm only gonna work till five, but then every other day they're like, you're here till six. So, how does that actually impact you negatively when you set a boundary and then you ignore it?

SPEAKER_01 20:05

You're not trustworthy. If you can't trust yourself, why would anybody else? That's really what it is for me. If you cannot trust what you say, if you can't honor yourself, why would somebody else honor you? Humans by nature will exploit. That's by nature. We have to go beyond our selfish nature to become people that are incredible and caring and kind, because at the core, we're wired for survival, and it's it's gonna be you versus me. But you diminish your credibility and your voice every time you say, I'm not gonna do this, and you do it because you feel bad, because someone made you, they're not making you feel bad. There is no button that somebody is pushing literally on you that says, make Madison feel bad, make make Claire feel. There's no button. We don't have buttons. We are not machines. But we absolutely do have nervous systems that are wrecked. We absolutely do have reproductive systems that are being wrecked. We absolutely have lifespans that are being wrecked, and we absolutely have families that are being wrecked. Your lack of boundaries is impacting your credibility, not just with the world, with your own self and your body and your nervous system. Your nervous system needs to know that you're a safe place too.

SPEAKER_00 21:24

Yeah, you're you're right about that. It's like that book and that phrase, your body knows of school. And I always have this conversation with people how stress is a silent killer. And I had that experience health-wise. I think one of my biggest wake-up calls in recent times was when I thought I was having a heart attack. You probably recognize it's a really bad, severe panic attack. And what went through my mind, and this is the changing point, is when I thought, you know, I can't go out like this. Because I honestly thought, because my heart was, you know, I had to call the doctors and, you know, I had to go for scans of my heart. That's how severe the stress was. And as soon as I decided to leave this project, I didn't have uh heart palpitations anymore, having to,

Boundaries That Protect Your Nervous System

SPEAKER_00 22:10

you know, to use a spray, but that was like a big wake-up call for me when that happened by experience of experiencing really severe panic attacks, you know, looking at reality. I was thinking about people I love in that moment when I thought, you know, I was gonna die. I wasn't thinking about work, and I was thinking this is not the way I want to go out with work, and it was work which triggered that you know, really severe attack I had.

SPEAKER_02 22:36

Um I I say that really often, and it feels morbid, right? But like this all ends. No matter how we flip this coin, this all ends, and I promise no one gets to the end, and they're like, Oh, I have an unsent slack message. Like, no one gets there, and that's and that's what they're thinking of, right? Like you're thinking of you didn't have enough time with your partner, you didn't have enough time by the ocean, like all of these things that have nothing to do with work because work doesn't matter. One of the things that we are sold is this terrible, terrible idea that work is the center of our universe. When in actuality, work is the thing that sustains our universe, our homes, our families, our hobbies, the things that fill our cup. Well, work tends to be the thing that empties it. But we are sold this idea that like you have to hustle, you have to hustle, you have to hustle. We share it with the fact that work basically strips you of your serotonin and your dopamine. So now you're looking for dopamine and you create this lifestyle where you're like, I need to shop or I need to travel or whatever it is, and I love it. Don't get me wrong. But I also know that in my worst moments, I was dopamine searching by buying really nice bags, but like a nice bag, but it's a trick. But then you trap yourself in it's cyclical. Yes, you don't know how to exit from this lifestyle you've created. Yes. So I guess my question, and this is for either of you, when we are trying to talk about putting down hustle culture, it is something that is so deeply ingrained in us because we end up tying our worth to our ability to produce, our ability to climb the ladder, our ability to earn $100,000, $200,000, $300,000, $400,000, whatever the thing may be. How do you help people unpack that?

SPEAKER_00 24:05

I think um it's a gradual thing because I've been listening to what you're saying, and I've been there, and I say that life is a continuous learning process. And what I mean by that is I have to check in with myself sometimes, you know, to do the boundaries as you were mentioning. Because I think I think going back, I think it's in a word you said you mentioned there, Maddie, in terms of how we are programmed to go after and chase things, is to do with also inbuilt stuff to do with our childhood. So talking about from the perspective of being a person of colour, when I was growing up with my family, it's like you have to be very good. You couldn't be mediocre, and that's part of thing which pushed me in terms of work because I had like Colleen saying, You're very hard working. So it's like what I'm trying to explain here is how we could put ourselves under extra pressure in terms of coming up with some goals which people other people are not expecting with us, and it's also goes back to the mindset or concept which I have. I call it SIP, which is SIP, I call it SIP, you know the African, which is single potent person. And what the whole core of this method is that at the end of the day, it all just leads back to us you matter as a person, an individual. It doesn't matter your relationship status, you know, your gender, you matter as a person, and it's also a reminder that it's not selfish, you know, to you know, put your needs, you know, first, analyzing when I don't want to do something, you know, say no, as you mentioned, a full start, because we have all this programming from when we're younger about pushing, pushing, pushing, pushing all the time. So my answer to this, I don't think it's necessarily very easy to snap out that habit if you're you know that minded, it's a gradual thing which you need to do. And one of the ways I do this or what in terms of the clients I work with is I look at what are your core values. So I encourage people to whittle it down to about three because the thing is when we have a long list, you I don't know what your thoughts are. Like if I say visa 20 things I attain to, it gets a bit scrambled. So when I come to make a decision, it's almost like a decision pillar. So, for example, one of my core values is autonomy and play. I'm just using I said two, not one there. So when I'm looking at decision, I'm looking at from that prism. Do I have autonomy or control over this? If not, then this is not a good path for me to take. And it's a case of, you know, when I'm feeling something out of sync, so I feel a bit resentful for saying yes when I didn't want to say no. So it's just a practice thing you have to keep doing all the time because the reality is it takes a while for us to shift from one behavior to another, you know, X mile times. It's like a ritual, it's like for sample, if you've been on a fitness journey, say some of you were not into doing workouts, lifting weights, or you know, I I always recommend to people, I'm not a fitness expert, by the way, so I've mentioned that disclaimer, but I like walking, so I do lots of walking. So because it's like second nature to me, if it's raining outside, for example, code, then most likely I do that because I got into that habit and I'm doing something which I enjoy. So I think the message I want to pull out there is not to be hard on yourself, you know, be kind to yourself because a lot of us could do that where we're very hard on ourselves and we're you we have that internal dialogue going on all the time. That's one thing you can't escape from yourself, and it's not selfish to prioritize your well-being. Because when we look at the word selfish, we have like negative connotations, don't we? About putting other people down, and it's like programmed. And I remember once I did have a you know, someone did say to me, You're being selfish, and this is after I've done some work on myself, and I thought, you know what, that's not bad at all, because I'm prioritizing myself. So that's that's one of the things I you know, things I would suggest to people is it's a gradual process and not try to do things. So, in terms of boundaries, it's it's it's a thing which you need to keep practicing, and then it comes second nature, it becomes easy. And with other people who like to push you, like the sibling, the younger sibling who might want to get away with do something with you when you say no X amount of times and they get used to it because, as you said, correct correct me early on, is it's human nature to want to push buttons, a bit like children in a school. I've worked with children before, as a teacher, where they would try to test you.

SPEAKER_02 28:54

I heard you mention a little bit about play, and I actually think that's a really important part of this. So I am a fitness professional, I am a certified personal trainer. Um, and for me, one of the things that I try to work with my clients on is fitness should actually be a form of play. It shouldn't be another crappy thing on your calendar where you're like, oh my God, I have to go do this thing. For me, like that is my best part of the day, whether you're choosing to lift weights or do Pilates or go for a walk or do parkour, like whatever the thing may be, right? I think play is such a fundamental part of self-care and taking care of yourself. But also, at least to me, like I go to the gym because I can't think about my crappy boss if I'm trying to just like not die under a weight. So I'm like, oh, I can't think about emails. I'm just thinking about like, don't girl, don't die. Dr. Claire, what about you? What do you do in terms of play? Like, what's important to you to get your mind out of, you know, work mode into play mode? How do you do that?

SPEAKER_01 29:49

I love reading. And so it's also recognizing when I'm not reading a lot that something is wrong. There's currently four books that I am trying to go through. I identify my faith and it's really important to me. So prayer and connecting with God is really, really important to me. As I told you before we started, I'm an island girl. The ocean is where I find my peace, where I find God, where I find calm, and where the noise of the world is drowned out. So when I'm able to, I do that. I go to therapy consistently. My therapist, listen, shout out. And I have, I, you know, I have what I call my black and brown sister circle. A group of women who I am so blessed to have in my life, including my twin sister, who literally remind me of who I am when the world tries to tell me that I'm nothing, who refuse to allow me to overwork, who say, sit your butt down and don't get up. And I'm I was editing myself because we're on LinkedIn, who literally are part of my joy, part of my soul connection. These are women that I just spoke to one of my friends. We literally spoke from 11 o'clock at night till 5:30 in the morning. We were both going through a lot of stuff, and literally it's that's what I'm talking about. Like that's that's how I come back to play and joy because we're also kikiing and we're sending memes. One of our friends, we abandoned her because the memes that she sends, we're constantly spitting water out. But she's pulling things from threads. That is how I engage joy because joy is an act of resistance. And I know we say it, but I'm like, I need you to embody this, and I'll be damned if I allow you to take my joy. This world is trash. Uh-uh. Nope, nope, nope. I am a lover of gospel, I'm a lover of soca, carnival girl all day, every day. So I'm gonna put on my carnival music, I'm gonna walk it down like that. This is me. And so I think that we have to find the things that give us joy. But I also want to say a boundaries. Again, I find my joy through my boundaries. They are family members and loved ones that I am no or low contact with because they were stripping me of my joy. It's abusive, it's toxic. They are colleagues that I am no longer in connection with because it was stripping me of my joy. If everything you do is constantly remind me of what was or the drama and the trauma, I don't need to know about that. Tell me something good. What's your favorite flavor of ice cream? I always ask people that because I genuinely care because I'll remember that more than I remember what your job title is today. You know, I think finding connection with people and like you travel. I love traveling. I listen, my dream job is to just be traveling to let me specify all the warm countries with nice beaches because I am I'm a beach snob, unapologetically. I'm from Barbados, our beaches are clear, and so if your water don't look like this, don't even come to me because unapologetically, not sorry.

SPEAKER_02 32:45

So that's how Jersey Shore isn't doing it for you.

SPEAKER_01 32:48

Listen, I'm okay. So very clear. I again, I am again, I'm an immigrant, and I remember the first time I went to an American beach, and my friends were like, Oh, the beach. And we got there, and I kid you not, I was honestly on the work, it was a work-related trip. And I said, What is this? And they're like, What do you mean? And I would I didn't understand the sand. And they're like, Oh, you I was like, No, no, no, I don't, I don't want to get close to that. I'm like, this it looks dirty. I don't, I don't, I don't understand. It looks like you washed your clothes in it and the dye and the dye came out of your clothes. Like, I'm from the islands, we hand wash clothes, so I'm just like, this one is giving it giving dirty water. No, if I cannot see through the water, if I can't see my feet, if I can't see my feet, if I can't see the fish swimming, no and no, thank you. Unapologetically, I'm a beach snob. Again, the beach is a five-minute walk from my house, one straight walk. I don't even have to cross the street, just go.

SPEAKER_00 33:40

So I love the beach for you as well. I don't think you I don't think you are like uh Brighton Beach in the UK because I it's pebbles. If you've been there, I don't call that beach or pebbles.

SPEAKER_01 33:53

No, I'm like so many of y'all don't know what a beach is, and I am my heart breaks for you because you don't know what a beach is. My heart breaks, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:59

I I know I I I know I know beaches. I could be a bit like that myself. That's why I don't like Brighton. People say you want to go to Brighton. I say it's not a beach because it's it's pebbles, and when you go canaries, the sand is like more light black because of where it's based volcanic. So you I don't think you're like the black, you know, the gray sand.

SPEAKER_02 34:20

No, I'm not for it. So, you know, one of the things that you mentioned that I really want to pull out because someone else commented on it. I think one of the things that I tell people the most often is when you're in a toxic work environment, it is so important to have your people. Because one of the things that happens when you're in a toxic work environment, right, is you put on the mask. You show up however you need to, you turn on the phone voice, you do all the stuff that you have to do. And eventually that part starts to not just become second nature, it becomes nature because now you're viewing yourself through the lens of this is the version of me that is worthy of respect, of kindness, of a paycheck. And so I think it's very important to have community who calls you out of that, right? Who's like, this isn't you, you need to sit down, take it off, like you need to like stop. So I would love to hear from both of you how community has played a role in a being able to separate yourself from your work, but also just in your own mental health and wellness journey.

SPEAKER_00 35:15

Do you want to go first or you could go first? So I have a think about it because it's been a while since I've been in that environment because I'm more independent on my own body.

SPEAKER_01 35:25

Yeah, it's everything. I will say my

Unlearning Hustle And Reclaiming Worth

SPEAKER_01 35:30

community for the win, and then I'm gonna do an additional addendum, black women and brown women for the win, because that is my community, and I don't just mean your friends. So quickly, I've been on multiple medical leaves in my in my career, and my entire medical team is made up of black and brown women because it was the first time I knew that healthcare could be humanizing. And except my dentist, but shout out, brown man, still. But I remember my doctor at one point, and I needed to leave, go out of work, and HR was horrible. I mean, and also a black woman. And my doctor called and she said, Claire, you'd be proud. I didn't cuss her out. I wanted to cuss her out. She's like, I'm so sorry you're dealing with this. And because of what was going on at the time, my doctor was like, I cannot deal with this. I can't, I, you know, I your job is making it so hard for me to write you, like to support you. And I remember just being so like just broken. And a year later, my doctor said, It's your life or your health. You choose, and on, and but you're not gonna have a choice. And that's part of my community because my doctor, when I was trying to minimize it, she was like, Claire, let's go through your labs. And this time, this happened. And then you told me this was happening at your job, and then your labs are showing this. And you remember when this happened at your job? And then this, like, she the amount of tears streaming down my face because this woman is seeing God knows how many patients. And she literally was recalling for me incidences and mapping clinically what was happening for me. And I'm a healthcare provider, so there's a sense of helplessness because and frustration because I know what is happening on a deeper level than most, and yet I still feel helpless to do anything. Community is not only your friends and family, it's the circle you built. Community in my life has been my incredible black and brown medical team who went to bat, my doctor who was coordinating with my therapist. Shout out to my therapist who's a Middle Eastern woman, like literally, who coordinated to save my life. A lot of times we think community is our family, it's what you build, it's the places you go. It has been so important in my mental health because had that not happened, I wouldn't be talking to you. And I know that because my body was breaking down in a way. And it's why I talk to organizations and leaders about this work, why that's the work that I do. Because they're like, well, why should we care about our culture doesn't have anything to do with this and mental health? And I'm like, the US loses 300 billion dollars every year conservatively due to toxic workplace culture and unaddressed mental health needs. $300 billion. The global economy loses almost $9 trillion due to disengagement. And every organization is losing tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands of dollars per employee. So if you don't care about your people, I need you to care about your profits. And part of the people that are part of your circle to support your well-being in those toxic places can be your doctor, your therapist, your spouse, your friends, your colleagues, your children, the people that will say you're not okay. I've had colleagues who literally, their children are the people that said to them, Dad, mom, whoever, you're not okay. And they left because they're literally teethering on heart attacks. Why do black women have so much higher incidences of cardiovascular disease? Why? Why do we have earlier onset of perimenopause and menopause? Statistically, why why do we again, why do we have more fibroids? Why do we have severe like endometrial? Why? And so your circle is the people that are gonna say to you, nah, this is not worse for life, your health, your value is not connected to your work. And we need people that remind us of that. And lastly, I think that I do want to connect to something you said before. So often we connect our value to our work. That is capitalism, that is exploitation, that is rooted in slavery, that is ongoing, and y'all need to stop because Gallup did a study to about two years ago, and it said that people who tie their worth to their job titles are two to three times more likely to burn out. LinkedIn did a study two years ago and it connected, said 42% of people say that their self-esteem is tied to their title and a promotion. I'm from a country where when I came to America, people would say, What do you do? And I didn't understand what do you do. I'm like, do on the weekends, do for fun. Like, because I culturally I couldn't understand, but they meant for work. And I was like, but that's work. Like I read, I travel, I have like all these other things. When you're from a kinship-oriented society versus individualistic, it makes a difference. Your network has to be, your community has to be people that at the core demand your humanity and hold the mirror up to you to remind you of it when you forget.

SPEAKER_02 40:38

I think you call out such an important point too, which is the what do you do conversation. Because something I've really had to unpack is I go to work and I do work the same way I go to the grocery store, the same way I sit in traffic, the same thing, the same way I do anything else that is just an average part of my life, but it is not who I am. I am not Madison HR. I am not Madison chief people officer. I'm not Madison business owner. I'm just Madison who does things, right? Like I happen to do business, I do HR, but I've had to really separate it from being part of my identity. And that was a really weird shift for me, knowing that I put so much of myself into my work for the last long time, because I'm old now. It feels weird to separate that, right? Because you you spend all of your time. I mean, one of the things that I admit really openly is I gained like 100 pounds when I was at like the peak of my career. The peak of my career was the least healthy for me emotionally, physically, because I wasn't taking the time to go to the gym. I wasn't taking the time to actually be off when I took PTO. I always prided myself on being the person who was available, accessible. And what that did to me was I like didn't recognize myself in the physical sense, in the emotional sense, but I really had to like strip myself of like, you actually have to go find an identity. Go get a personality, please. And that was actually hard. And then it made me think, crap, how many people don't actually have a personality because they rely on work to do that for them. The other thing I really want to call out, because I'm not sure how many people listening will understand how important and how rare it is to have a fully black and brown medical team who hears you as a black woman. And so I would actually love to just hear a little bit about that. Because for those of you who listening, when you are a black woman navigating the healthcare system, specifically in the US, you are not in great hands in a lot of capacities. They don't treat your pain as real. I have an entire medical record about I've had two full knee reconstructions. In my last one, I interviewed five surgeons and it was because I needed a new ACL figure. But he wrote in my chart that my pain was psychosomantic. And I was like, Oh wow, I was ready to I was like, where does this man live? We're we're gonna check. But I would love to hear just where you can speak on it, what that actually means to have a team that supports you versus a lot of what the world experiences, you know, in America as a black woman.

SPEAKER_01 43:01

I don't even know what the word is because gratitude isn't it. I am intimately aware of how these women have saved my life because they valued my life in a way that it never was. My GYN, I text her, I'm like, hey girl, hey. Literally, we are hey girl, hey, like, you know, like I my PCP, I can message her and say, hey, this is what's going on. I spent years going to so many different doctors, being told it was stress, and stress is not the silent killer. You mentioned earlier about stress, like

Play Joy And Rest As Resistance

SPEAKER_01 43:40

it's not silent, it's so loud.

SPEAKER_00 43:41

No, that's what I mean. It's a silent killer. I mean, it does always different things in your body, you're not aware of it until it gets, you know, the sense in the pairs or the illness. That's what I meant.

SPEAKER_01 43:52

Absolutely. Yeah, no, I not that you are wrong. I'm just like, it is so loud, but it I I went to so many different doctors who dismissed. I I am not a I'm a obviously I believe in science. I'm a healthcare practitioner by training, but I also am cultural. My culture carries a lot of it. So having culturally responsive and honoring care is the way that I approach care. And also because actively decolonizing this training all day, every day, forget the white Western European approach of healthcare. No. Um having people that when I would say things to my doctor, like, hey, this is what's going on, and I figured I found out that this helps alleviate this. I've had my GYN, my PCP, others come back to me and say, Hey, Claire, you know what? This actually does work. And I researched this natural remedy for the last year, and I've been recommending this to other patients. Thank you so much for telling me about this, Claire, because we didn't learn about this in med school. That to me is culturally responsive, honoring care. That did not happen. I've had, you know, I remember I switched to my neurologist. I switched three times until I got a black Indo-Caribbean woman because not that all, but my white doctor could not like I kept saying, I am not medication first. What are the natural remedies that can help reduce these migraines? And she kept pushing and pushing and pushing. And I said, You've given me this medication before, it makes me nauseous. Then you gave me a pill for nausea. Do you know what I learned? Ravoflavin and magnesium together have a lot of research to helping to improve migraines. And so I take that every day. And guess what? Within two, three weeks, significant reduction in migraines. I didn't even know how much I was having a migraine. And so, whether it's a sleep study doctor, my rheumatologist is Korean. And so we get to talk about different cultural aspects of healing and practices. And she understands, I don't have to explain. The thing is, is that having a team of black and brown providers, particularly women, I don't have to explain. My therapist, I don't have to explain. My therapist is from the Middle East. And I can let you know right now that she tells she reminds me that I'm a black woman in America. When I'm talking, she's like, Claire, this is because you're a black woman in America. Like this is she reminds me of my humanity. She reminds me that this is not real, when the world will gaslight me. And there is a healing that happens because the sh the shackles that have been passed on from generation to generation as a means of survival are constantly being shattered and broken. Every time I have a healthcare provider or someone in my system, or I say to someone else, I see you. And I don't mean I just see you. There's an intimacy in to me see. When someone sees into you, there's a connection because regardless of where we are on this planet, we are connected by soul, by spirit. Doesn't matter what color, what creed, whatever you are. But in this cultural context, because we decided that the largest organ is the thing that determines everybody has melanin. Just different concentrations. That's it. We decided that the concentration of melanin decided determined the concentration of your humanity. Having a team that is deeply intimate and connected to who I am is life-changing because it's life-saving. And that's the approach I take in my work too.

SPEAKER_02 47:10

I love that. And so this question is also going to be for both of you, but I'm going to ask Sophia first. I think one of the worst things to happen to me as a black woman is the thought that I am supposed to be resilient. May no one ever call me resilient ever again in my whole life. I want to be soft, I want to be cared for, I want to be like wrapped in a warm blankie on a beach with a margarita. But I guess when we're thinking about how do you put that down, how do you allow yourself to be soft, to honor the experiences that you're going through, to honor that stress? Because I think so many of us are taught to just move through it. Like you just have to keep going. And then especially as a black woman, right? You're consistently up against the last best thing you did. And so it forces you to never think about the present. You're always thinking about what next. And so, how would you recommend that people put that feeling of having to be strong all the time down?

SPEAKER_00 48:15

Yeah, I think it all comes down to what I was saying early on about my sick methodology and being kind to yourself because I mentioned early on how it used to frustrate me. I had like an ex who kept saying, You're very stoic, you're very strong. And I I get I used to get really annoyed because it's almost like, you know, I go through pain and challenges, and it could be like you're in a battle sometimes, you know, being a person of colour, like for example, dealing with medical professionals. So when my mum was alive, she she had dementia, so she died three years ago. Years leading up to it, I had to fight with professionals. And I remember I had one incident where I was at the doctor's surgery, and I was trying to explain that you need to, you know, be extra cautious of my mum, you know, her safeguarding. And the lady turned around and said, Oh, she seems perfectly fine to me. And there is that sort of like um judgment in terms of you've you were feeling that they were thinking that there was something wrong with you, maybe you being aggressive or strong-handed, you know, in terms of how you're handling, and that's that's like internal things, which you know, if you're not very careful, you could internalize that. But going going back to you know, how do I, you know, find that space where I could just be soft, it goes back to me accepting that it's okay for me to be vulnerable when I have a you know, like a bad day, I have different mechanisms. Like for some of you talked about your support, your network. So I would talk to my friends, I would do like different sorts of like self-care pampering to myself, which helps me, and a reminder that you know I'm human at the end of the day, it's okay to be annoyed or angry about a situation

Community Care And Culturally Safe Healthcare

SPEAKER_00 50:10

rather than always put up that sort of like strong front all the time because the way the world is, you know, it's not you know, it's not fair, you know, all the time. And I, you know, I upset that's how it is, you know, how it could be very challenging, you know, emotionally, you know, having to deal with people. But then it's okay to talk to your network, you know, the people who can relate to what you're going through, you know, understanding how the dynamics is, you know, like how you have to like speak to yourself, you know, speak to other people externally. So I'm using that example, my mum, where I have to like, you know, talk calmly, because you know, if I'm not very careful at all, then people be saying, you know, this person is for angry, you know, black woman. And that's that's like a big thing, which I think some people do not understand sometimes, that you have to appear, you know, in the outside, like this demeanor, you know, like calm and not, you know, raise your voice or be mindful. So when I, you know, when you get very frustrated or angry or something like that, it's happened to me. I have to make sure I'm aware of my volume. So that's why it's so important to have those people you could talk to, you know, for example, like the therapist, your close friends or your family to explain to them about this is how the reality is, but also be gentle to myself too as well. So it's a combination of self-care. And I also have a system which I created, which is called the green room. So, you know, for example, how on film sets or movie sets, the actors they they take a break in between the scenes. So I have like this philosophy where I step out. So it could be, for example, like going for my morning walk or doing my exercise or watching like a piece of comedy, like watching something online, for example. So that's part of my self-care sort of like um kit. So I think that's the key thing. So, yes, I talked about the different scenarios where it's high stress and you've got the pressure of the outside world, having to have this, you know, sort of like persona, but having a good self-care kit is really, really important too as well, you know, your network, your green room. It could be different things for different people, like meditation or maybe religion, for example, seeking solace. But the most important thing, the core thing is realize, you know, knowing that you're human, it's okay to be angry, it's okay to be frustrated. Because, of course, if we internalize all this stuff, it all masks out in different health ailments, which we've been talking about in this conversation.

SPEAKER_02 53:00

What about you? How do you feel about the word resilient, Dr. Claire?

SPEAKER_01 53:06

Transparently, I hate it. I really do. I do, I do. I'm not gonna lie, I hate that word, and I'm saying hate intentionally, and I know I'm a mental health practitioner, I'm trained, and we talk about resilience. I have a very complicated relationship with that word because I think it's BS, especially because while I respect it and understand it, and yes, yeah, yeah, it exists, it gets exploited and it has been bastardized within black and brown communities and just in general outside of that. Because we celebrate exhaustion, we celebrate people's ability to endure and to push through and to bounce back and adapt. And we praise this, but we never interrogate the heck out of the systems and conditions that require people to do it in the first place. And I always tell people resilience has limits because even a rubber band breaks when too much is put on it. We keep talking about these things as though these are badges of honor. Resilience is inclusive of your self-care, but I also go a step beyond collective and community care because that's necessary. But resilience is bastardized. We are not meant to live and survive, nor can we thrive in ongoing toxicity and stress. A short amount of stress over a long time is worse for you than a big amount of stress over a short period of time. Because we're talking about the chipping away. And we keep talking about resilience as though it's a badge of honor. I am telling you, I in my background and my career, social impact, social work. We talk about this, and we talk about the marginalized kids and the at-risk kids and the in in the workplace. We talk about resilience is the early grave. Resilience is the fact that you got passed up four times for the promotion, even though you have more education, work, no, more degrees in a thermometer, and the person that just was an intern two years ago is now your boss, and you have to swallow that. That is what this demand of resilience is doing. I think we need to look at the word, appreciate the word, but stop bastardizing and abusing and exploiting this word because we exploit the word so that we can exploit the people that are harmed by our refusal to interrogate and tear down the systems that are demanding their resilience, their strength, their life in the first place.

SPEAKER_02 55:23

Absolutely bad. If I if I could snap well with these long ass nails, I would.

SPEAKER_01 55:28

I don't know how you lift with those nails. I'm like, I know you lift up my hand.

SPEAKER_02 55:32

And it's funny, I get asked that a lot at the gym. Honestly, I just got used to it. I actually I need to feel like super bad right now, but I don't know how much get used to it. The only thing that's frustrating is like sometimes when I'm trying to grip a barbell, I like my nails are in my oh wow.

SPEAKER_03 55:43

How do you do it?

SPEAKER_02 55:46

So I know we only have a couple of minutes. So I have one. Well, actually, I have two final questions. This is like a real question. My next question is not nearly as real. I guess it kind of is. But if you had to say one thing to a bad boss you had previously, if you could give them one piece of advice, what would that piece of advice be?

SPEAKER_00 56:04

Yeah, can you repeat that question again? Um what would I would it would be like how I would react to them or no? If you could give them a piece of advice, how they could do better. You know, be human, you know, act like a human being. I know it might sound really simple, but it all goes back to it, be a human being, because it's like that that sample used early on about that that lady who got sacked because she was prioritizing the needs of her child who was four at the time. You know, that that's not being human at all, you know, expecting a person to think they don't have a child, but I'd say be human.

SPEAKER_01 56:50

That being an a-hole, yeah. Um like on it, I mean, like I that's the crux of it for me, right? Like they're it and and and I would add an addendum because it costs, right? We are there's a story that is out right now of this woman, Chelsea Walsh Walsh, whose newborn died recently, and the Ohio jury awarded her $22.5 million. She lost her child because she was denied the right to work from home, even though she had a high-risk pregnancy. Wow. And I'm gonna post about it on Monday because I schedule my things, but like stop being an a-hole because it costs you. And it's not just costing you your humanity. If you don't care about your people, it's costing you your profits, your credibility. Stop being an a-hole.

SPEAKER_00 57:45

Yeah, my being a human being, because that's the thing, people being dehumanized.

SPEAKER_02 57:52

Um my hot tip is as a reminder, karma always spins the block. That part, and it may not be in your next boss, but it will find you. Everything catches up to you. So, my last, not less real question, but you and Starty, I would love to know, okay, what's your favorite ice cream then? What's your favorite ice cream flavor?

SPEAKER_01 58:11

So, in Barbados, there's a restaurant called Chafet, and we have cherry vanilla, and it's vanilla is yellow, it's not white like in America. And the cherries are machinal cherries, so the yellow, the the green and the red cherries. That and rum raisin from Chafet specifically are my favorite ice creams in the entire world. Okay, and what about you, Sophia?

SPEAKER_00 58:33

I like coconut ice cream. I got that really good one in Chobago. I said I'm sorry, and straw, you know, coconut ice cream and strawberry, yeah, ice cream or vanilla if I had to make free. How about you? What's your favorite ice cream?

SPEAKER_02 58:50

Oh god, I'm I'm ice cream agnostic, really. I love all ice cream. Um, but there's a brand called Van Van Lewen. I don't know if I'm pronouncing that right, but they have a mango sticky rice ice cream. Oh that is quite literally life-changing, but might

Resilience Pushback And Final Takeaways

SPEAKER_02 59:05

I also recommend their honeycomb brownie, whatever. All of their flavors are good. They also have weird flavors like ranch and mac and cheese. I'm not that adventurous, but their other flavors are so good. But if I'm going to just like the place down the street, I really like cake better.

SPEAKER_01 59:19

I'm let me find out I'm going to Penn Station because they definitely are in Penn Station. Let me find out I'm going to Penn Station.

SPEAKER_02 59:24

They have a real location in Miami, too. So that's where I tried it.

SPEAKER_01 59:27

I was like, oh, nice and warm. And there's one right in Penn Station that opened up a few, like, yeah. So I'm like, let me find out. I'm about to hop on the train.

SPEAKER_00 59:36

So annoyed after wait to a couple of months to go to this really good ice cream place in Chiswick and London, Italian one and make the best ice cream, but it they're not open just yet.

SPEAKER_02 59:47

Well, I so appreciate the two of you joining me. And last minute, might I add, I put out like a hey, who wants to come crash out with me like an hour ago. So I really appreciate the two of you coming, hanging out with me, talking about topics that are so near and dear to my heart. Starting with you, Dr. Claire, where can people find you, connect with you, and spend more time with you?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:04

So, first, I want to thank you so much for even responding and inviting me to share space with you. I absolutely adore you and have for many years. And I'm so grateful to meet you also as well, Sophia. So thank you. So easy. LinkedIn, I play the most on LinkedIn, but also you can find me on my website, which is linked on LinkedIn. Info at my email is info at drclairspeaks.com, or you can just go to my website, drclairspeaks.com. I provide speaking, training, and short-term strategic advisement at the intersection of mental health, leadership, and organizational culture.

unknown 1:00:34

Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:34

And what about you, Sophia? Where can people find you?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:36

You can find me. My brand or my HQ is Sophia Weld. So my website's www.sophiaworld, like in world and then.co.uk, or you can find me at Substack at SophiaWeld.substack.com, and I help people in terms of pivots making changes in a pragmatic way. And I also write some really interesting lifestyle and wellness articles in Substack. And it's been lovely to be on this show and talk about divine timing because I'm not always on LinkedIn. And it's nice to meet both of you. And I like your blue hair, Madison. And it's been it's been lovely following you for years. Always found your post interesting. And I think I think you're getting used to my sense of humor. I remember like a post a couple of weeks ago, and I thought, oh.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:29

Well, I appreciate you both so much. I will also link out to both of your pages when the podcast part comes out. So you'll be able to find this on iHeartRadio, Spotify, all of the places where spotcasts, podcasts do the thing. But thank you all for joining us. And this is just a reminder everybody's crashing out. Be kind, be nice. You have no idea what people are going through. And if you are struggling with a crash out, you know where to find me. Let's work, let's make your life a little bit dreamier. But until next week, see you later. Bye y'all.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:56

Yeah. Love peace for your lying.