Crash Out With Me: When The Strong One Breaks

One day you’re traveling for work, celebrating the mission, and showing up as the person everyone depends on. The next day, it’s a Zoom invite, a cold script, no severance, and benefits ending at midnight. That’s where Monikka Mann and I start and we don’t look away from what a layoff like that does to your body, your confidence, and your sense of safety in a brutal job market.

Monikka is a two-time Stanford grad with an engineering background and a PhD path, plus the kind of “think on your feet” presence that’s literally won her game shows. None of that protects you from a system that can auto-reject your applications, punish you for short startup stints, or treat experienced talent as “too senior.” We talk about why being the fixer becomes identity, how servant leadership gets misunderstood by executives, and why so many of us keep asking smart questions about cash flow and runway only to be dismissed until the crash arrives.

We also go deeper than work. We name career grief, family grief, and the invisible load of being the strong one at home and in the community, especially for Black women. We get honest about healthcare anxiety, the guilt that shows up when rest feels “indulgent,” and what burnout looks like physically when rejection emails keep coming. You’ll also hear what Monikka is looking for next, including remote-friendly chief of staff and program leadership roles where operations, communication, and deep tech translation matter.

If this conversation hits home, share it with someone job searching, subscribe for more Crash Out With Me, and leave a review so more people can find these stories. What part of burnout or job loss do you wish we talked about out loud more often?

Transcript

Welcome And Why We Crash Out

SPEAKER_01 0:03

And we're live. Happy Wednesday, everyone, and welcome back to Crash Out with Me. If you're new here, my name is Madison Butler, Maddie B if for friends. And this is Crash Out With Me. I created Crash Out With Me as a reminder that every single person you know is going through something. They have something that they are crashing out about. They have something that is taking up a lot of space in their brain. And so I want to be able to showcase all different kinds of people who tell me what they're crashing out about and we talk about it for a little bit. And today I am so excited to have Monica with me. Could you introduce yourself a little bit for the people?

SPEAKER_00 0:35

Oh, sure. Hello, people. My name is Vanika Mann. Happy April Fool's Day. Definitely do not plan on playing any pranks while we're chatting. I currently live in Houston, Texas. I have a background in engineering. My bachelor's and my master's are from Stanford University, and I'm currently a PhD candidate at Texas Tech University. So I'm here crashing out about today's job market. This has been crazy. I was unfortunately separated from a job that I really enjoyed when I think the CEO woke up, woke up and looked at the financial statements and realized wait a minute, I don't have enough money to pay all these people. So

The Layoff That Came Overnight

SPEAKER_00 1:18

I just gotten back representing my company on a trip to Riyadh and was planning the next week to fly out to meet one of our customers or partners in Portugal. And then just happened on a Friday, I get an invite for a Zoom call. And I'm like, okay, cool, company updates. Ooh, maybe we're going to be talking about something cool. We got funding, something great. And it was, oh hey, we can't continue if all of you are on payroll, basically. So this is a message that just says no severance, benefits are ending at midnight. You'll get paid through today. And so long and thanks for all the fish. It must have been really terrible for the people that were in the office because our CEO was like, oh, hey, leave your keys. Don't worry about taking your stuff. We'll pack it up and send it to you. So yeah, that was the day after I was on the local news talking about our company, as well as my episode of Trivial Pursuit, hosted by LeVar Burton, had aired the night before. I had a big watch party, noticed like nobody from work came. And then we had this, you know, the next day this happened. And I'm on both medias, like talking so great about my company and what we were doing and our mission and why I was like super passionate about it. And then, you know, the next day it's like, oh, bye bye. You know, one of my friends even wrote me and said, Oh my gosh, they should be paying you for like promos for talking about them because they just got a bunch of free local and national publicity. But what I got was a Dear John letter instead. So that was going on, it'll be six weeks on Friday. I have not had a single interview. I have applied to I don't even know how many jobs, just nothing's happening. And it's it's been rough. So, you know, we were, we were, I think the title this week was something about, you know, what happens when the strong one burns out. And that's and that's where I'm at right now. Like it, it's it's rough and it's hard to stay positive in in this current environment.

SPEAKER_01 3:33

Also, number one, I'm so sorry for mispronouncing your name.

SPEAKER_00 3:35

I oh no, no worries. You're all good.

SPEAKER_01 3:38

No, I'm I'm always gonna call myself out on things like that. So appreciate you for correcting me. Um, it's funny that you, I mean, it's not funny that you say that, but I think we all saw probably yesterday, Oracle sent an email, right? And look at that. Oh, yeah. Like, and I am a little bit crashing out about like, how are we still doing this in a way that feels so inhumane? You know, again, I I recognize that like sometimes these are things that have to happen either because people were bad at money, the economy, but oh my God, I cannot imagine waking up to a 6 a.m.

SPEAKER_00 4:08

email being like, sorry, today's the last day. Yeah, I was reading through that yesterday, and it brought up, it actually brought up a lot of feelings that I had about my separation from my last job because it was so in my lane. The kind of things I like to do, it was uh, you know, serving public safety officers, which is something I'm super passionate about. We had all kinds of great publicity with helping people and you know, lives that we've saved, et cetera. And then it was just that. So to go in like 24 hours from, oh my gosh, I'm really proud of what I'm I'm doing at work and what our mission and vision and values are, to 24 hours later, like, oh hey, you you don't work here anymore. And the worst was the people that just started that week. Like we had several people that had just started that week, hadn't even been there a full week. Only been there like two or three days, because I think Monday was like president's day. So they started on Tuesday. They worked three days. Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday. Then Friday, they were let go.

SPEAKER_01 5:25

Which to me feels like I've always felt this. I feel like that is such a terrible case of planning, right? Because when you are doing a major riff, you should know more than three days beforehand, right? So in theory, you knew that you were hiring these people, only to let them go, which means they can't apply for things like unemployment because you have to be employed for 90 days. All of these things that make it so complicated. Yes, you knew that. You knew that, and you still chose to do it, knowing that this is people's livelihood, right? Because again, I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 5:52

I don't think he knew that. I don't think our CEO knew that. You know, I'm I don't mind asking questions. Everybody knows if I have a question, I am gonna ask it. And and Chelsea, yes, what I later discovered after this call, and I'll go back to what I was saying before, is that every African American employee at the company was let go that day. Every African American employee. So, yeah, it is what it is, right? But, you know, I remember asking in company meetings like, hey, what's our runway? What's our funding situation look like? And getting answers like, you know what, that's not important. You have to have, you know, this positive mindset that we are going to make this life-changing money. And, you know, I have every faith possible that this company is going to be a success. So based on that, you should feel really good too. And I'm like, my youngest kid is in college. I have a family, I have three fur babies that, you know, need to live in the lifestyle to which they are accustomed. So I just need to know. And it's not something that should be hidden because I've worked at other startups. I've worked a lot with startups. And, you know, you know, as the whole company, this is why we need to execute. These are the milestones we need to hit, or else in six months, nine months, eight months, you know, the lights are shutting off. And with this company, I can say every time I asked that question, it was either diminished or not discussed at all.

SPEAKER_01 7:33

Well, and it's funny because we actually, I was on a different live yesterday. We had this conversation about unspoken labor. And I think as women, especially women of color, black women, I am always also asking the questions. I am incredibly nosy. And so I was laid off last year. And before that happened, I was asking a lot of those same questions like payroll isn't making sense compared to cash flow, payroll isn't making sense compared to what we have in the bank. What are we doing to do this? And instead, we kept hiring people who made six figures. And I was like, I don't think we should keep doing that because the math is in fact not mapping. Only for in a couple months for me to be laying off half of the company, including myself. And so I think that is also something for me that leads to that burnout is like I also anticipated this, right? Like part of my nervous system could feel this coming, but it's like watching a car crash. You can't stop it because you are not that you're not behind the wheels.

SPEAKER_00 8:27

Yep. And for this, like we were already being dramatically underpaid compared to our peers, which was why we had a really hard time even like bringing people on in the first place. You know, I did it. I took personally, I took a 20, 25 grand pay cut when I started in the company, but I saw that it was a startup, I was very passionate about it, and I was sort of sold

When Layoffs Turn Inhumane

SPEAKER_00 8:52

on this room to grow. Like I came in early during the interview, and they're like, oh, where do you see yourself in five years? Like, I want to help to grow this company via success, and I would like to eventually move out of engineering project management into more of a COO or chief of staff type role, right? Like it was very clear. And I'm like, let me get in here, let me build these systems, let me show them my value, let me grow with the company, and then eventually, you know, I will get my reward at the end, which I got one promotion, but it didn't, it definitely didn't turn out the way I wanted to be. And it's like another less than two year stint on my resume where people are gonna be asking, Oh, why do you have a short stint? I'm like, because I work for startups that do not have boards. We had one member on our board, the split baby member, which I was like, we should have more than that, but hey, if they got a system that works, let me not because you know, you start asking those questions and people you start getting a stink eye from people, like, no, okay, no, I'm not a rabble rouser. I'm just trying to understand. And, you know, it it really sucked because you know, a lot of my identity was wrapped up in my role. I remember my husband and my daughter saying, Mom, it is 10 o'clock at night, stop working. And I'm like, nope, this one more email needs to go out. I need to get this to our partners in Portugal because they're six hours ahead, so they'll see it first thing in the morning. I need to schedule like it was always my identity was the one that was going to make this a success, right? Like I tell people all the time, went to engineering to be a professional problem solver, right? That's what I think engineering as is. So it was like I would see problems. Hey, there's not a process in place, there's not a procedure in place. You know, I was writing PTO policies, I was organizing workflows and managing the workflows in Jira. At one point, I was buying laptops for new employees and getting them enrolled in Acrobat, Microsoft Word, and Jira, and you know, and so it really hurt because so much of me was like invested in the company. So, like I consider myself a high-achiev person. And you don't realize how much of your identity gets tied up in being that reliable person, being that one that people can come to for answers. Because when the CEO tells the entire company, if you are blocked on anything, Manika's role is to unblock you, right? So then you feel that burden of responsibility that, like, okay, if I'm not available, I could be really messing something up for a customer or one of my coworkers or someone. So yeah, it it has been really tough because you tie your value to being that useful, helpful, capable, needed person. And then when that's gone, you're lost a little bit sometimes.

SPEAKER_01 11:57

Do and so I'm gonna ask you kind of a vulnerable question so you can tell me to, you know, go where I have to if I need to. But do you regret wrapping your identities up so much in this thing? Only for this thing to turn around and be like, you don't matter to us.

SPEAKER_00 12:15

Yeah, I I do. Like there's definitely, I just lost my mom like right before Christmas.

SPEAKER_01 12:22

I'm so sorry.

SPEAKER_00 12:23

And so I think I'm I was still dealing with some lingering grief, but then decided, and either consciously or subconsciously, I don't know, ended up throwing myself more into my role to sort of, you know, take my mind off of it, not worry about it. Like two years ago when my dad died and I went to HR, I'm at a previous role. They said, Oh, well, bring your laptop with you. Maybe doing some work will take your mind off of it in those spaces where all you're doing is sitting and dwelling on your grief, right? And so to me, I was like, okay, yes, I'm focusing on work. If my brain is busy doing work, I don't have time to think about this. And then all of a sudden, I'm grieving the job, and that's tied up with grieving my mom. And I'm grieving my role in my family as being the provider, the sustainer. You know, my husband's a teacher, he's a high school teacher. So I'm sure, you know, that comes with a lot of stress too, because teachers are also desperately underpaid. So if anybody on here is in the department of world, uh, world wrestling, I mean education, y'all need to do something about paying these teachers. I'm sorry. Just as a spouse, as a parent, as an outside observer, that isn't a crime in this country. But, you know, the emotions come up with it because you can't solve feelings. So do I regret it? Absolutely. Do I regret some of the behavior that I tolerated? Oh, of course, because I accepted it knowing or with the belief that, you know, you have to work, you know, my grandparents, my parents all told me, being who I am, I gotta work twice as hard to get half as much. So just sucking it up and moving on, yeah, it it really did, it really did hurt.

SPEAKER_01 14:20

So, you know, I would love to maybe linger on the topic of grief, because I don't actually think it's something that we're talking enough about, right? In 2025, 400 to 600,000 black women were so kindly escorted out of corporate America, with many of them not being able to find their way back in. Now, so many of us, especially in the millennial age range and a little bit older, like this has been our lives for the last 15, 20 plus years. And you built, you built this thing, right? You worked so hard to build the thing, especially as a woman of color, as a black woman, you have to work 10 times harder than the average person to get where you are, to have it ripped away, to not be able to find your way back in. And I don't think enough of us are having conversations about what it means to not just grieve that piece, but to also grieve how much of myself I gave to this thing that turned around and said, you don't matter. And that's heartbreaking, right? Because I I'm a little bit further past the grief process where I was like, you know what, I just don't want to do this shit anymore. Like, I do not want to do this shit anymore. Like the idea I got to this point where I wanted

Runway Secrets And Leadership Failure

SPEAKER_01 15:28

to physically crawl out of my skin thinking about logging into a slack. Because life is so big and beautiful, and we build our lives because we want to make more money. And you say, once I get to this place, I'll be good. And then once I make this amount of money, I'll be good. And then you get there and you're like, well, just a little more. And you do it to build this life, and then you can never touch, right? Because you're working till 10 p.m. or you're too tired when you get to Saturday, or you know, you just keep the compiles and compiles and you're on PTR. And so I would love to just talk about for you, you're still very new in that grief. And so, how are you navigating that today? What does that feel like for you?

SPEAKER_00 16:06

It feels heavy because you're also not just grieving your work identity. It was like, I'm home pretty much by myself with my dog, my cat, and my rabbit, like sometimes 12 hours a day, depending on if my husband has something to do after school. My kids are all out of the house. My youngest one was here and left because her spring break ended about a week ago. So she's back in California at Stanford, where she's trying to finish up her education, my alma mater.

SPEAKER_01 16:37

So, you know, definitely can we just repeat that that you're a Stanford grad? Can we just can we highlight that?

SPEAKER_00 16:42

I mean, could I could I repeat that I'm a two-time Stanford grad? Oh, yes, I'm a two-time Stanford grad. Like I have a bachelor's in material science engineering and a master's in mechanical engineering, and my focus was on thermodynamics. So, you know, I'm clearly not a dumb person, like to toot my own horn. And I was not even talking about the like five game shows I've been on and the six figures I've won being on game shows, right? So it definitely hurts because that grief ties into that. Like all the effort I put into school, like I could have just, you know, if I'm just gonna be unemployed, I could have just had like a great life in my 20s and 30s and partied and like was very irresponsible. Instead of like, oh no, I have you know a problem set. It's Friday night, I'm gonna stay in and do my homework, right? So that's that's one thing, grieving that who you could have been, grieving and like I was saying, being home so much. I'm not getting pings on slack from my coworkers. We're not going out to lunch together anymore. So it's almost grieving that human contact, that connection and feeling like, you know, you're seen or that you're like a part of something. There, you know, is the grief of the plans that we had. Everything that, you know, you're saying, okay, we're saving up for this. The, you know, I live in a house that was built like almost 50 years ago, right? Like someone came over the other night and tripped on our front walkway because the concrete blocks are like not flat anymore. That's a project. I don't know when I'm gonna fix that now because my plan was to fix it this summer, but who knows, right? And it's it's all those things that you're it's the potential that you're grieving as well. You know, it's knowing that even from my daughter, who's you know, another black female who, you know, is very independent, very unique, sort of forging her own way. I can't send her care packages every week or two like I used to, or you know, slip her, you know, five or ten bucks on Cash App just to say, hey, I know it's exams week, go have lunch, go have a coffee, you know, those sorts of things. You know, so it's it's a grief, not just tied to not having the job. It's almost feeling invisible, like all of a sudden, because no one's seeing you for your capabilities and your potential anymore. And then you're also looking at jobs that are so outside of what you want, but you're doing it because it's something you need to do. And then you worry, okay, if I settle or if I go down this path, will I ever get back to being the person I thought I was? So yeah, it's it's very humbling and very vulnerable. And you know, the the the job market is not helping. It's not like why are we going to war right now? And no one's giving me a clear idea of where the clear and imminent danger was from Iran. And I personally think, you know, having a kid all the way on the west coast, and I'm in Texas, and this foolishness that this man is doing is telling Iran's like, oh, we're gonna stop start bombing the West Coast. Of course, they're gonna go for Silicon Valley, where my baby is, right? And it's like you feel vulnerable, you feel like there's nothing you can do, you're powerless, your voice is taken. So, yeah, I think there's a huge grief component of it. And, you know, it's like the guy at Epic Games that had brain cancer, right? No life insurance. You know, what is what is his family gonna do? Those so much of our ability to live a quality life in this country is tied to employer-sponsored benefits, and I think solving that problem would be more valuable to the American people than picking a fight with another country halfway around the world. 100%. Well, I don't know if we had universal. Yeah, sorry, go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 21:09

No, I was saying, I just wanted to remind you, someone else said in the comments like, I hope you know you're not invisible. I see you. Everyone here sees you because you're not your job. You're you. And you know, I get it though. So when I got laid off last year, of course, like life, life at the same time, right? So I also want to feel like a really ugly breakup, like right at the same time. I'm also craving like contact, but almost like not with my friends, because I felt like they were asking, and they love me, right? So they were asking lots of questions, and I was like, I just want to go somewhere where someone sees me and doesn't ask any questions. And I was truly getting like a massage a week just to be in the presence of someone else, but quietly, silently, actually. So I I I resonate so heavy, but I hope that you know that like your value is not in your job. And even if it means you never go back to this thing, it doesn't mean this thing wasn't valuable. It was a thing that you did and you loved, but and maybe life looks different. Different moving forward, and that's okay. But I hope that you know that nothing about your value and your worth and your ability to be a beautiful human being has anything to do with companies making crappy decisions.

SPEAKER_00 22:11

Oh yeah. I mean, it's just you know, and then you know, right? You can think about something logically and say that, but there's always a part of you, those little, you know, middle of the night intrusive thoughts or you know, that are just saying the the complete opposite. So absolutely, but it's just and I and I don't think people realize how hard it is to lose a job. It it's it's in this country, so much is tied up, you don't get rewarded for good works, right? You get rewarded for good work at your company. And the fact that I've spent 25 years volunteering with First Robotics as a coach and a mentor to help underresourced kids find their own pathways into like STEM and you know, decent careers, that doesn't that doesn't help when Comcast is like, oops, you know, hey, you owe a bill. Or when, you know, a light falls down in your kitchen. Oh, actually, I have a real one. My dryer is not making hot air anymore, right? So I'm on YouTube, like, okay, I gotta get a multimeter and go in and try to figure out how to fix this myself because buying a new dryer is not in the cards right now. If I was working, that's a whole different story. So it's like those things don't care about your self-worth or how you give back to society. But that's really what we should be, we should be valued on, not just how much money we make for someone else.

SPEAKER_01 24:00

Well, and I think that's one of the interesting and like worst things about America, right? So when you look at many other cultures, they're very community focused. And America is a very individualistic culture. I think it is so much of why we tie ourselves to our job, because it is truly like how we say, look, I'm a person worthy of talking to, I'm a person worthy of value, all of these things, because we are a very individualistic society. And that to me is one of the worst parts about this, is because it means our work is tied to everything, our benefits. And then obviously entrepreneurial stuff is not for everybody, but being an entrepreneur is no easier, right? Because now benefits are four million dollars.

SPEAKER_00 24:37

Um yeah, absolutely. And people are always like, You're so smart. You went to Stanford, you should start your own business. And I'm like, heard. Your perception is noted. However, everybody in my family tells I am not the creative person. I am not, you know, the only reason, like, while we have decorations and stuff is between my husband and my mother-in-law, I am not gonna lie, is not that is not the ministry God gave

When Work Becomes Your Identity

SPEAKER_00 25:06

me. God gave me the ministry to take something and make it work, right? That that is what I enjoy doing. That's why it was like operations and project management. And you know, I don't need to be the one, and I struggle to come up with ideas. You know, we got a dog last year, and it took us almost two days to figure out what to name him. All right. And I'm like, Do you look like buddy or a yeah? Oh, his name's Rocket, but that's him. Yes, I said, well, I call him my little buddy. So we heard him. He's like, I'm not buddy, and he's barking, like, mom, mom, is it time to play? So yeah, it's it's just I know, and I think there's value in knowing not only what you're good at, but what you're not good at, and knowing what energizes you and what drains you. And for me, I always teach, like I was even teaching management classes at my last job to the new people managers. And one of the things I really talked about was servant leadership. Like for me, I am energized when the people around me have what they need to be successful, they feel like they're fully supported. And so me striking out and doing something for myself inherently feels kind of selfish to me. And I really sort of on the fundamental level struggle with that because it's like, oh yeah, go start a business. Okay. A business doing what? Well, the sky's the limit. Okay, well, what do you like to do? Read on my Kindle Unlimited, which I don't have anymore since I'm not working. And, you know, I like reading books, I like playing with my dog, I love building Legos. Like, that's the stuff I like to do. Can I make a career out of that? Probably not. If there, if someone knows of a way I can, please let me know. I'd be happy to pursue it. Like, really, I'll take pretty much anything right now. But it's it's a struggle. And yeah, that, and I think that's why some of us, not everybody is the big picture thinker. Some of us have to be practical. And I think a lot of us more practical-focused people see our jobs as our way of providing value to society. And then when that's gone, you do kind of feel like, okay, well, what am I supposed to be doing now?

SPEAKER_01 27:30

100%. I also want to kind of circle back to when we first started this conversation. We talked a little bit about when you are the person that's relied on, it's even more central to your identity, right? Because not only do you do this thing, you're also used to people kind of needing you. And I often feel like in many situations, that is always a black woman. It is always a black woman that we are using to rely on everything to keep everything functioning moving forward. I'm looking right at America. Um, and so for you, I would love to talk about what that feels like, obviously in the after, but how does being the person that is always relied on also contribute to a little bit of that burnout?

SPEAKER_00 28:10

Yeah, absolutely. So for me, honestly, the biggest one that I feel like I'm laying my family down is like health care. Like we have terrible health care in America. My husband, you know, we've had all we had all kinds of doctor's appointments and stuff scheduled. But I had to call and cancel because it's like I don't have insurance anymore. So hopefully nobody dies before I get another job, right? And that being relied on, a lot of people, you're in that role at work, and also you're in the same role at home. So, and I think that's something else that could be a whole nother story is the unpaid labor of black women, both at home and in the workplace. And where is where do they carve out of space for themselves? Right? Like, we're not talking about that because that's something I definitely struggle with. And then yeah, you you're losing a part of your identity and you're not that relied upon person at work, and you're also feeling like you're not that relied upon person at home, too. You know, you're having to change your relationship with the people, even in your own families and communities, because you just can't provide the same way that you used to before. And I and I think that's also something we're not, I think, and maybe even for men, because they're you know thought of to be the provider and the head of the household and yada, yada, yada. And I think that's something particularly in black communities, there's an extra stigma when we're unemployed and we feel like we're welcome, you know, mooching off of society when we when it looks like we're not able to contribute what we feel we should be contributing. Like my robotics team is amazing. I love these kids. They have tournaments and it costs money. And a lot we're in, you know, my husband teaches, and we made a choice to go live in an area where the schools are predominantly Title I because it's like we want to give back to people who need us. And we feed these kids every weekend when we have long practices because when they're not at school, you know, I'm always worried that, you know, are they getting meals at home? Some of them aren't. Some of them are, you know, but at the same time, you want to provide for them all. And so I used to cook, I would cook for them every week, like chili or spaghetti, or we barbecue, like we would do all these things for the kids, making sure they had pop and you know, hot a hot meal at least once, you know, once a day on Saturdays, sometimes more than once a day. And now I can't do that because I have to worry about feeding my own family, right? But how do you how do you how do you reconcile that with seeing a child that you know is hungry? Right. So you feel like you're not doing what you can for your community all of a sudden because you just cannot afford to in this economy. And our team is 100% funded by contributions and donations. We don't get any funding from the school district other than being able to use the school on after school and on weekends. And we're pretty sure, knock on wood, we're going to the state robotic championship here in Texas. That's a $4,000 fee on top of the $6,300 that we had to pay just to compete. And then, if, you know, I don't know if it would be a good thing or a bad thing to make it to the world championship, but that's like, hey, you have to give us like five or six grand to hold your spot within 24 hours. I believe it's 24 hours. Nobody, you know, shoot me with arrows if I don't have the times and dates right. But yeah, like within 24 hours to hold your spot, or else it's the next team up. And before, you know, that wasn't as hard because anything that we were short, I could always just fill in. And now I don't have that ability to support the team that way. So, you know, that's another stress that, you know, talking about letting people down when you're the strong one, when you're the person that always figures it out. You know, it's not just at work, it's at home, it's in the community, it's with friends, with family. It it's it's kind of crazy. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:53

Sorry, now I have now I have a barking dog. So one, is there a place where I know it's donation friendly? Are there is there a place that people can donate if they want to that I could I'd be happy to share in like the notes of the podcast?

SPEAKER_00 33:06

Oh, sure. So luckily, we're working with a really great nonprofit organization here in the Houston area called the Innovation Impact Lab. So I can share with you their W9 information. We have a QR code where people can donate via Zell, or if you know someone wants to send in a check, we can give give you guys that information as well. It's 100% tax deductible. All funds go directly to the students. And yeah, no, that would that would be wonderful.

SPEAKER_01 33:37

Yeah, no, I love that. And who doesn't love a tax deduction, right? So I know that one of the things you also mentioned at the beginning of us is that you're feeling burned out, which is fair. Yeah,

Grief After Loss And Job Loss

SPEAKER_01 33:48

big big thing. So, how are you caring for yourself through this burnout?

SPEAKER_00 33:53

Wouldn't the question be, am I caring for myself?

SPEAKER_01 33:56

So I guess let's start there. Are we are we caring for ourselves during this period of burnout? And if not, why has that not happened? And I mean, and yes, of course, from a financial perspective, but just in terms of even just taking time for yourself alone outside.

SPEAKER_00 34:12

It feels like I don't think I'm doing a good job doing self-care for myself. I will just say that. I think one night my husband found me. I was sitting on the couch with my laptop on my lap, dead asleep at like three in the morning, because I was just still tweaking my resume and applying for jobs and tweaking my resume and applying for jobs. I'm not sleeping as much as I like. It's exhausting. Now I feel tired all the time. I, you know, and the things I used to do for self-care, like, you know, go get my hair done, go get my nails done, go get a massage, like you're saying, go get a massage, take myself out for a nice lunch or go to one of these shishy fancy, you know, ice cream places and get like a giant sundae or something, right? When you don't have the fun, oh hey, sweet boy. When you don't have the funds, you can't you can't do those things, right? So those self-care things are out. And then also when even stuff that doesn't cost money, like taking a bubble bath or watching, you know, a reality show on TV, it feels indulgent. It feels like, no, you need to be spending every possible second you can trying to get yourself and your family into a better situation. So mentally, it's hard for me to unplug and tune out. And then every so often say, maybe I take a nap, or you know, I just decide to watch, you know, Age of Attraction on Netflix, which is this crazy show. My daughter, Sidney, if you're watching this, Sid, this is all your fault. She got me hooked on like Love is Blind, and there's like Love is Blind in every country in the world. So I just watched Love is Blind Habivi, which is like in the UAE, and like Love is Blind, Sweden is out now. So it's terrible. And when you do those things, and then you know someone, you know, comes home and says, Hey, what'd you do all day? And I'm like, I kind of just watched TV all day, and I didn't do the dishes, and I didn't sweep, and I didn't scoop the litter box because I was just kind of like not at an executive functioning level where I was motivated to do those things, you know, then it's like, oh, so you just like sat on your butt all day. You know, that's how you feel. And it's so it's it's hard. It's those little intrusive, nagging voices in our head that tell us that we should always be doing more. We should always be doing something. Like, rest is a luxury that we have not earned yet. And I think if there was any way to reprogram black women to understand that you don't have to earn the right to rest and to pause, like that would be life-changing. Because spending time catering to ourselves, serving our own needs and wishes feels so selfish sometimes. And that's just the way you know, I'm an oldest child, I'm an Aries, my birthday is tomorrow.

SPEAKER_01 37:21

Um happy birthday.

SPEAKER_00 37:24

I always wish my mom had gone into labor just a little bit earlier because an April Fool's Day birthday would have been really cool, but no, April 2nd's fine. You know, you have that type A sort of driving, driving, driving mentality, you know. And I think because a lot of us oldest daughters get parentified at a young age, and you get that feeling, even as a child, that you have to look out for your brothers and sisters. You're responsible, you have to take this on. And so it's hard to put that burden, that sense of responsibility down at one point.

SPEAKER_01 38:02

You know, I think that is one of the hardest things I've had to learn is that I actually can't be productive all of the time, even when I was job searching before I was like, no, I don't want to do this anymore. You can't do it all day, right? Like you have to do other stuff and then you have to feel okay about it, right? Like it's okay if you didn't sweep or do the dishes. All of that stuff is going to be there. And it's okay to just spend time with yourself. It's okay to just binge watch Netflix. Um, I just binge watch Secret Lives of Mormon Wives. What a mess, let me tell you. Um but it's one of those things that we have to unpack because white men don't think about that. They sit down and watch their football all day on Sunday without a care in the world about how they're eating or who's cooking or whatever the thing may be, because they were not taught that their life has to reflect production. They get to just exist, and you get to just exist. And so I hope that as time goes on, you start to feel more comfortable with those moments of laziness. On my last episode, we kind of talked about how being selfish is actually a super good trait to have sometimes, right? Because as black women specifically, we give and we give and we give and we give and we give and we give. And people will take and will take and they'll take and they'll take. And then what do we have? Nothing.

SPEAKER_00 39:17

Yeah. Boundaries are not, you know. I think somehow we're so programmed that like saying no is a bad thing. Like you're disappointing someone or you're saying that you're not capable of something. And, you know, that's something else to like setting boundaries is healthy. And, you know, I've even had to tell a lot of like no is a complete sentence. It I don't owe you. If I if you ask me to do something, I can't do it. I don't have to explain to you why I can't do it. You just have to understand that I can't do it, and that's that, right? So yeah, it's it's even a lesson, you know, at my age, I'm still learning, which, you know, is funny. You are never too old to learn something. You always got to have a growth mindset. And yeah, you have to sometimes train the people around you that if they see you finally resting and they know you don't normally just take a nap in the middle of the day, or don't normally spend a day just doing nothing, there's probably a good reason for it. And it's not something to be questioned or ridiculed. It's sometimes people are just at the point of complete mental and physical collapse, and they just have to stop, whether they want to or not. And I think we have to learn how not to work our bodies and our minds into that state of absolute, you know, collapse. We have to rest and recuperate and recharge our batteries before we get to that point. And the people around us at home, at work, our friends need to appreciate that as and understand that as well.

SPEAKER_01 41:03

And so one of the things that I also want to touch on is when we talk about burnout, you just said it, right? Like physical, mental, emotional exhaustion. And so for you right now, how is burnout showing up physically?

SPEAKER_00 41:18

Physically, I've lost a lot of weight since. I mean, not that I couldn't stand to lose a few pounds, but I'm noticing it. I've lost weight. I have like no appetite. I feel exhaust just absolutely exhausted all the time. Like I'm actually kind of happy we had to do this today because I had to brush my hair. Like sometimes something like that, like, oh God, I have to brush my no, I'm just gonna pull it back in a scrunchie or put a hood on. Like, no, I

Healthcare Fear And Unpaid Labor

SPEAKER_00 41:48

I anything else is like way too much effort. Like getting dressed in new clothes every day, right? Like these sorts of things, that type of exhaustion, depression, burnout, you know, it's real. It happens because you may not be doing a lot physically in this job search, but you feel the stress from it physically. I think every time I get nothing but a rejection letter, right? I feel that, not just emotionally, but I I feel like my shoulders are getting tight or my stomach is churning and queasy. And yeah, it's just exhausting. There's there's no other way. It's it's like you're giving, giving, giving, and nothing's refilling your cup. Even if it was, you know, at least if you were getting interviews, right? You'd be like, okay, someone sees my value. Maybe this isn't the right one, but okay, I'm starting to get some hits. I'm getting closer. But when it's just nothing, that's devastating.

SPEAKER_01 42:54

Well, and I also, it's not you, right? Like, I don't think you could have a better resume. And this won't mean as much to you, but my mom was like, it's harder to get a job right now than it is to get into Harvard. And you got into Stanford twice, so not a great statistic to use with you. But the majority of people I know, specifically women of color, specifically black women, aren't getting calls back. And I mean for jobs that they're wildly underqualified for. And I actually just don't know like how in right now, how we fix that. Because again, it's out of our control. I guess I could not check that I'm black on an application, but like you search my name, you're finding me, and the first thing you know about me on LinkedIn. Surprise, I'm black. And so, you know, I think that is one of the things that I've really had to come to terms with is it's not a reflection of me and my skill set and my ability. Because like in my world, I do this shit and I do it very well, and I am very sure that you do your shit and you do it very well. But at the end of the day, it doesn't matter. To the people who aren't really looking at resumes and you know you're getting auto-rejected. And I guess for you, what has been your strategy for job applying so far if there has been one?

SPEAKER_00 44:13

Sure. I wasted a bunch of money when I initially got laid off signing up for all these AI applying services. And then actually looked at what they were sending, and it was, you know, it was not, it was not worth it. You know, I think a better, you know, there's better tools out there to help you find roles, but I still think I do better. I mean, I haven't gotten all I get is nose anyway. But inherently, I think I have a better option if I'm filling out the applications and such myself. So yeah, it's a lot of that. It's like constantly, even when my husband and I are home in the evening and we're trying to watch TV or do whatever, I'm on my laptop. I'm looking to see, okay, what was posted recently? What are all the talking heads saying about, you know, what you need to do to apply for a job? And you know, sometimes it all like I've talked to a couple of like recruiters for contract roles, and sometimes it almost feels like they're looking for more reasons to say no than they are to say yes, right? They're like, oh, well, you were only with your last company for like 14 months. Can we talk about that? And I'm like, how do I say the company was being run by someone who was clearly more in love with being called the boss than actually being a leader that supports, you know, cares about his team and his staff? Like that to me is always, you know, every time I've managed a team, every time I've been a project manager, in my mind, my role is to take care of the people who are relying on me to lead them. And I think a lot of executives and managers and stuff think that the people who report to them are there to take care of them. And servant leadership tells you it's the exact opposite, right? Your company, if you don't take care of your employees, you don't have a company. You can be the CEO of Dirt, right? Like that's what I'm saying. And dudes at Oracle, I know you probably don't watch this podcast, but I just have to say instead of laying off all those people, y'all had no business trying to do this merger with Paramount and Warner Brothers and get rid of Starfleet Academy. Okay, as a diehard nerd, you'd be better served putting that millions and billions of dollars that could you got convinced to go buy CVS and Paramount and keeping that in-house and serving your employees that have been the ones breaking their backs to put you in the situations that you are in now. I'll get off my little soapbox on that.

SPEAKER_01 47:05

How much, how many people could they say that they just took a pay cut? And not even a big one, just a minimal one. You took a little, a little, a little slice, right?

SPEAKER_00 47:14

Yeah, no, yeah. Take a pay cut. You you've already got a cabillion dollars in a bank. What's another couple of million, right?

SPEAKER_01 47:24

I want someone here who that was she that was her ask instead of laying off someone on her team. She was like, Can I take a pay cut? She was like, You can readjust them whenever we're back to being normal. She's like, But I'd rather save that person and know that I can live on less. And for me, that's what real servant leadership is, right? Like taking risks to protect your teams. But the majority of people, again, going back to being an individualistic society, aren't willing to do that, right? Like it is very much all for one, one for all. And I will do what I need to do to make sure that I am good. And if everyone else is good, that that does not concern me. And so I think that again, like that is a rare thing to find. I would love to talk a little bit about before we end, I would love to talk a little bit about the what have we been doing? You know, when you were there 14 months or two years, gestures vaguely at the economy. Like, I don't know, have you not been reading the news? Um, how many people have been laid off? And so I guess how do you feel about having that conversation? When people ask you, I hate it.

SPEAKER_00 48:22

I absolutely hate it, and then it automatically turns me off. And that's when I'm saying, okay, you're just looking, you know, I'm qualified for this role. You're just looking for a reason to tell me no, because you don't want me to have it. That's how I feel. And, you know, for me, one big thing with this job loss, right? Because, oh, well, you lost your job. No, my job was taken from me. I've been reframing that in my mind when people say that. No, my job was taken from me because I've never gotten a bad performance evaluation. I even, you know, and people laugh at me about this. I would send out Google Forms at least once a quarter, asking people for feedback on how I could be a more effective or better teammate, how I could communicate better. Is there anything more that you need from me in order for you to be successful in your role? And I would send it to engineers, I would send it to my peers, I would send it to the people I report to. So I know in my heart, I am a great employee. So I did not lose my job. My job was taken from me due to someone else's, you know, lapse in judgment or errors in management.

Community Pressure And Robotics Kids

SPEAKER_00 49:38

And sometimes when I start feeling down, I keep telling myself that that job was taken from me. I did not lose it. I was not careless with my job. When you lose something, it's because you lost track, you were careless about it or you forgot. I never forgot to go to work. I never forgot to answer an email. I never forgot to go to a meeting, right? I'm still having our partners from other companies contact me saying, we've been trying to get in touch with anybody over there. The CEO won't call me back. This person won't call me back. And I'm like, I understand, but I can't help you. I'm not there anymore. Now I do sometimes be sneaky and say, but if you hire me and I'm right here in Houston, then I can go over there and advocate for you. But in the role I'm in right now, all I can tell you is, I'm sorry that this is happening to you. But yeah, being the one that people always rely on, it can feel like a badge of honor sometimes. Like I work, I am people acknowledge me, I'm important, people see me. But at the same time, that can also be a trap because then you're wrapping yourself up in that, you know, look at me, I'm super bomb or super engineer. But the most powerful thing I think this experience is teaching me is that, hey, it's okay if you've been the strong one, you're allowed to take a break, you're allowed to pause, you're allowed to reset, you're allowed to pivot. Like that's not something you should be ashamed of. You know, we all need help. We all need a break. We all need a time out in our lives occasionally. And so the more we can do as a society to not stigmatize that, you know, and the more that we can understand that those things are necessary. I think overall that's just gonna help everyone.

SPEAKER_01 51:34

So, speaking of asking for help, I would love for you to talk to us a little bit about what are you what are you looking for? What's next for you? If you could abercadaber your dream job, tell me what you're looking for.

SPEAKER_00 51:45

Well, ideally it would be remote because this little miniature schnauzer I have has been with me 24 hours a day for the past almost six weeks. And I think it would break his heart for me to leave him home by himself, you know, all day, every day. But you know, I'm open to hybrid, I'm open to an on-site role. But primarily my strengths, my passions lie at the intersection of taking very complicated tasks and projects and establishing processes, clearing the lines of communication and making them more efficient and run more smoothly. Ideally, I've been looking for a chief of staff roles in deep tech companies because I do have a technical background and I've been, you know, applauded on multiple occasions for being able to help non-technical executives or marketing or sales understand what the technical challenges and hurdles are more easily without getting them all bogged down and too much geek talk, right? So, yeah, that's really primarily what I'm looking for is a chief of staff or head of, you know, like chief programs officer role in a deep tech organization. You know, I'm open to relocation or hybrid or on site, like I'm super flexible. I guess that's the one good thing about being an empty nester. And so, yeah, that's really a lot of of what I'm looking for right now.

SPEAKER_01 53:15

Awesome. Well, good to know that you are open to reload because I definitely have seen some chief of staff stuff come across my timeline, but they're mostly here in the East Coast, New York-ish. But remind us, you're based in Houston right now.

SPEAKER_00 53:27

I mean, I'm just in Houston. Funny story, I graduated from high school in upstate New York, just upstate county. Yeah. So I I I love the East Coast. I still have tons of family there. So that's not an issue at all. You know, I have my passport, I don't mind traveling. So yeah, I mean, I'm I I pick so many of the boxes uh, you know, a lot of times that I really do feel like people review my resume looking more for reasons to say no than to say yes sometimes.

SPEAKER_01 54:00

Well, and it's interesting. I recently got the feedback from someone that my resume is, I look too senior, which is intimidating. And I was like, and they said, so just like dumb it down a little. And I was like, what was the point of me being so good if I'm now it's too intimidating and I have to make it look like I've done less?

SPEAKER_00 54:18

Oh, yeah, like it that's so true. And it's like I'm a proud member of Gen X, right? There's no way to hide that. A little bit of hair dye does help occasionally, but I do have a little bit of them snowy peaks in there. So of course, I'm not an entry-level person. And I think, yeah, like you said, I think sometimes that is intimidating to people, especially when they find out like I was on Jeopardy, I was on the chase, I was on Who Wants to be a Millionaire, you know, I just got finished being on Trivial Pursuit with LeVar Burton, you know, people will get like intimidated, but I'm like, no, that is a plus. That means I can think on my feet, I can think under pressure, you know, I have a good television personality. I can represent you well out at trade shows or in marketing videos, right? So again, more senior people look at them as an asset and not, you know, something that is gonna be a problem bringing them in compared to the other folks at your organization.

SPEAKER_01 55:21

It's

Burnout Body Signals And Real Rest

SPEAKER_01 55:22

true. And I I don't know, I don't think you can say you're obviously Gen X, because I was floored when you told me you had a college-age child.

SPEAKER_00 55:29

So that's my third one. I have one that's gonna be 30 next year. See, that's my oldest daughter is gonna be 30 next year. My youngest one just turned 21 in November.

unknown 55:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 55:40

Which is weird when you can go out and drink with your kids. Like that is the strangest, strangest thing ever, you know. But no, it's great. I've been fortunate. I have good good kids and I'm proud of them. And I want to get back to work so that I can support them, you know, when they're ready to get married or when they might need a down payment on a house or something. Like that's how I see myself now is I'm not working just to build up me and my lifestyle because I could live pretty simply. It's me, I want to be able to be the parent that can be there for my children. And having being gainfully employed helps me be able to do that. Like my girls, I still carry them on. Well, the the two younger ones, they're still on my health insurance. And now they don't have health insurance, right? So heaven forbid something happens, but they're young women. I can't wrap them up and bubble wrap, right? They've got to go out and experience the world. And my middle daughter loves working on cars. And I'm like, oh God, I hope you remember to get your tetanus shot. Please don't, you know, get cut or something like, please, oh my gosh. You know, so it's it's, you know, it's one of those things. Like, I want to be in that position where even if something does happen, I'm able to support them in the way that they they deserve.

SPEAKER_01 56:56

I love that. And again, I literally would have never guessed. I know we are coming to the end of our time. Anything that you have learned or you want people to learn from, from you going forth in their job search, going forth in their burnout journey, anything you last words.

SPEAKER_00 57:12

Yeah, don't let yourself get burned out. Take time to take rest. Advocate for yourself. Like when you need those breaks, when you need a rest. It's not selfish to need time to yourself. I would say that, you know, one thing I always pride myself on is that I've been a mom while I was in college, while I got my bachelor's degree, while I got my master's degree. My husband and I just had our 30th anniversary on Monday, so day before yesterday. So we got married in college. And about six months after we got married, we realized we were gonna be mom and dad, right? And so we've had to navigate our our careers, our education. He also is has his PhD in education. So we've been able to do all that while being, I would say, pretty decent parents. Um, I'm sure our kids sometimes would beg to differ. But, you know, you can do those things that you want to do. Sometimes your route looks a little untraditional, like going back to finish your PhD that you started in your 20s, maybe when you're in your 40s, right? But, you know, you can still achieve your goals if you just, you know, have a supportive partner. And, you know, sometimes the straight, sometimes you got to take a little windy road to get where you want to be instead of going straight up the mountain. And, you know, I I really hope that soon I'm back working so that I can help smooth those paths for my girls, just so that, you know, maybe they can learn from some of my lessons and don't have to experience all the avalanches and potholes that that I did.

SPEAKER_01 58:55

Shout out to supportive partners, but bigger shout out to you. You have just like the best energy and the best vibes. And you are just such a beautiful human. And I am so, I feel so lucky to have had like this time with you. And I

Dream Roles And How To Connect

SPEAKER_01 59:10

am very grateful to have shared it. And so, again, if you are watching this, hire Monica, but also hire black women, value black women. This shouldn't be this hard. I shouldn't have to like beg y'all to do this. But if there's anything you need from me, please feel free to reach out to me. Um, I'm gonna connect with you after I hit end, obviously. But thank you so much for being here. And thank you for everyone who's of course and thank you for everyone who watched today. As always, you can find the recording, the podcast on all the places that stream podcasts. We have two more this week on Friday at 12 and 1:30. So I hope I see you there. And again, please remember to connect with Monika. Where can people find you if they want to follow up with you?

SPEAKER_00 59:46

Sure, of course, I'm on LinkedIn. My name is M-O-N-I-K-K-A. So there's not a lot of me out there. So yes, you can definitely pretty easily find me. It's my Jeopardy picture, it's my profile picture. If you guys watch Jeopardy, you can notice the background is that I was never gonna waste that hair, that professional hair and makeup. So sorry, I will use that picture until I no longer look like that. And yeah, and you know, I'm all the usual pace places Instagram, Facebook, but yep, I'm on LinkedIn. And yeah, if you have any ideas or options for opportunities for me, feel free to reach out. I'm always open to new and exciting things.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:29

Awesome. Well, thank y'all. I will see you in a couple days and enjoy the rest of your week. Drink some water, stay hydrated, touch some grass. Love y'all. Mean it. Bye.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:37

Bye bye.