Crash Out With Me: Not Everyone Deserves Access to You

Some people don’t want a relationship with you, they want access to you. 

We sit down with Aubrey Blanche, founder of The Math Path, to talk about the relationships we outgrow and the ones that quietly turn harmful. We get honest about parasocial relationships, why people who barely know you feel entitled to opinions, and how the block button can be an act of clarity instead of drama. We also unpack the “fixer upper” pattern, survivor guilt, people pleasing, and the way privilege guilt can trick you into tolerating behavior you’d never recommend to a friend.

Then we zoom out and apply a consent philosophy to real life: friendships, dating, breakups, and workplace boundaries. We break consent into a simple framework (well-being, fully informed, free from coercion, ongoing) and talk about what it looks like to revoke consent early, before things get explosive. We also cover how to handle people who name-drop you professionally, how to stay truthful without doing extra labor, and why “I can’t speak to that” is sometimes the most respectful line.

We end with the bigger why: relationship quality is one of the strongest predictors of happiness and health. When you stop chasing approval and start choosing people who genuinely want joy for you, your body notices too.

If this hits, subscribe, share it with someone who needs a clean boundary, and leave a review with the one relationship rule you’re adopting next.

Transcript

Welcome To Crash Out

SPEAKER_00 0:03

We're live. Hi everyone. Welcome to an oddly late version of Crash Out with me. My name is Madison Butler, Maddie B, if you know me. And this is the Crash Out. I invented the Crash Out because I wanted to remind people that everyone has something that they are crashing out about. Everyone has something that is taking up brain space for them. And be nice, be kind, be open-minded to the fact that the world doesn't exist in just the way that you exist. I am so excited because today I don't even have a guest. I have my like long-distance best friend soulmate. And I'm so excited to crash out with her. Do you want to introduce yourself and tell us what you'll be crashing out about today?

SPEAKER_02 0:37

Sure. All right. Hey everyone. I'm Aubrey Blanche, also known as the much less cool version of this duo. But I am the founder of The Math Path, which is an equitable design consultancy. So I advise organizations on issues of equity, especially in people and culture, ESG, and my current neurodivergent hyperfocus, AI ethics. I go to Cambridge studying that as a grad student. So I'm also the nerdier one of this duo, but I also feel really obligated to mention that Maddie has a book that you should buy. One, because it's amazing. I laughed, I cried, I read it twice right there. But also because it's super related to the topic we're talking about today. We're taking our discussion from our spicy group chat onto LinkedIn. But what we're crushing out about is relationships that no longer serve us. So for me, I've been really thinking about it as withdrawing my consent for contact to people who are behaving in ways that aren't cool with me. But I think we've all dealt with that. And we'll certainly talk about exes and about friends, those parasocial besties, at least what they think of themselves as, but also the way we relate to people at work. So let's get into it.

SPEAKER_00 1:45

Oh gosh. I'm it's funny that you bring up the when someone's on acting, right? Because some someone the other day texted me, like, have you heard from so-and-so? And I was like, No, they were weird with me one time and I don't talk to them anymore.

SPEAKER_02 1:57

And I just think so good. I feel like I'm like newly in like this as a skill because I am so susceptible to being guilted into being close to people because I really struggle to like disentangle how do I be kind and compassionate to this person while not permitting them in my space? Like, I just have a history of tolerating people treating me like shit and feeling like I deserve it and just taking it and like yeah, 37 and still figuring that out.

SPEAKER_00 2:35

No, you got one chance to be weird with me. You got one chance to be weird with me, and I am blocking you.

SPEAKER_02 2:40

Oh my god, are you saying I've done nothing to deserve you blocking me yet?

SPEAKER_00 2:46

No, but like the person that I'm even like it's just people who have like weird opinions about my life. And I think, again, that's parasocial, right? Like, we have maybe texted and we're friends. I've never met you in real life. Why do you have an opinion on how I am marking my book?

Parasocial Access And The Block Button

SPEAKER_02 3:00

Weird. Yeah. I mean, a lot of people give me opinions, but like, so let's start with parasocial relationships because I'll talk about something that recently happened to me. To for folks who don't know, like my platform is maybe like one sixth by numbers the size of Maddie's and definitely less cool. So I deal with like way lower levels of bullshit than you do for reasons of platform and also, you know, melanation. Like, I'm sorry, it's real. But there was someone who, someone I I have known in real life who in a previous version of my life had a really close relationship with, but like we haven't been real tight as adults, like we don't regularly connect. So there's just my baseline assumption is like there's a lot of things about your life I don't know about, but I wish you super well. Like I hope everything's amazing. And this is someone who like repeatedly gets really angry when I talk about my own life experiences and how I relate to them. And it seems to be because the things I talk about she doesn't know about or I didn't tell her about 30 years ago. And like I ended up having to block this person on three platforms because I was like, one, you're literally putting stuff on the internet that is factually incorrect about me. But also, like the idea that you're mad that I'm talking about my own life and how it relates to my work is just not appropriate engagement for me. And I actually just don't need to justify it. I can say, I wish you well, I revoke my consent for contact, hit that block button. And for me, that was like, I might as well have climbed K2.

SPEAKER_00 4:34

I was actually impressed when you just said you blocked someone. I don't like three platforms. You don't do that. I do that, I do that swiftly, actually.

SPEAKER_02 4:45

To be fair, my mom also told me she was proud of me for using the block button.

SPEAKER_00 4:50

Well, I just think here's the thing, especially for people who knew you in previous versions of yourself, when you share so much of yourself online, they think that they have stayed with you on that journey. Therefore, they have some say in how you show up in that journey. And it's like I haven't talked to you since I was seven. I don't know. I just feel like knowing me through the internet isn't enough to have a say in how I actually exist in the real world where we touch grass.

SPEAKER_02 5:20

Totally. And something I think like I'd love for you to talk a little bit about is do you have like a particular calculus? Because I know both of us talk about really personal stuff online, but also for me, there's very specific types of content about my life that I don't share online. And that's important because again, part of my touching grass practice is like the deepest parts of myself mostly don't show up on the internet. So the people who know those, it's a sense check. And so for you, like, what are the categories of things that aren't online that are kind of your like you're my person if you know this? You don't have to tell secrets, but like what are the topics?

SPEAKER_00 5:59

I'm like way less of a hater online than I am in real life.

SPEAKER_02 6:04

Like, I mean, I do know that.

SPEAKER_00 6:07

You I was gonna say you you know that for a fact. But because I do my work because I want everyone to do well, I want everyone to be safe, I want everyone to be respected. But for a lot of people, I want you to do that way the hell away from me personally. Yeah. Like I want you to have a good time, but way over there.

SPEAKER_02 6:26

I mean, I think that's it. This is my like the thing my therapist and I are working on is like, and I think you've modeled this really well for me. So thanks for the good influence of like, I wish you well at a distance. Like, I'm no longer accountable for personally participating in like your welfare, but I will also not do something that I know is harmful to you. Even if you've treated me like shit, I'm not gonna take like action to do something bad, but I'm also gonna put a lot of effort into like enabling that, which is the thing that like I'm deconstructing, and you know this because you've seen all of my private crash-outs, is for me, the really particular thing actually is grounded in

Survivor Guilt And Fixer Upper Patterns

SPEAKER_02 7:10

my survivor's guilt. So like I carry a huge amount of survivor's guilt. The short version is I was born into a tough situation. I was abandoned as a baby, but then when I was a toddler, I was adopted by like two of the best fucking people you've ever met, like have ever walked planet Earth. And like the immense privilege of like growing up, like economically comfortable with parents who love me and treat me amazing to this day, is something that I never take for granted. But what I find is that when people have a story that's not as fortunate as that, I am very susceptible to the narrative that I personally owe them whatever they're asking for. And like that is a boundary that I still really struggle with, is like, what is the boundary between my obligation or my responsibility due to privilege that I objectively have, versus like, what is someone manipulating me trying to get something that it's actually not my responsibility to do or solve for? And so uh that has shown up in friendships, it's shown up in work relationships, it's shown up with some like romantic partners in really toxic ways. But that for me is like my Kelly Seal.

SPEAKER_00 8:24

Same but different. So I think for me, I also think this is a little bit Virgo, like a little bit Enneagram eight of me is I have always, in previous iterations of myself, have leaned into people who needed me in some capacity because it felt good to be needed. And a little bit out of an abandonment wound, I think I would in my brain as like well if they need need, they can't leave. And so that has been something that I've had to spend a lot of time on backing because you know what you end up doing? You end up raising whole adults. And I don't want children, so why am I parenting an adult, whether it be romantic or friendly or platonic, why am I raising you?

SPEAKER_02 9:08

That's really good. I have a friend, good friend, and he like is so loving to me, but he's not a guy who's like an immense words, and he's just like, Aubrey, don't care what we're talking about, no more fixer uppers. No more fixer uppers. And and you know, in he's definitely talking about like a very specific relationship that he was close to and witnessed and like saw was not conducive, but like, but that thing of like, I just feel such this like I want to save people, I want to help people, I want to share my privilege, I want to have a positive impact. And so a lot of figuring out how to balance like my definition of being a good person, which is like putting active effort into like making the world work better for people for whom it sucks, like doesn't require that I completely sacrifice my own well-being in personal relationships to do it. That like I literally don't have to walk around emotionally beating myself up because like I can afford to go to dinner. I can also hold that that that is a lucky thing, but like that in and of itself doesn't obligate me to like allow someone to verbally and emotionally abuse me. And I know that sounds really silly when you say it out loud, but that is genuinely the thing that I've had to in my 30s work through is that like just because I'm fortunate doesn't like it does create a responsibility for me to do something useful with that privilege, but it doesn't require me to tolerate actual abuse.

SPEAKER_00 10:38

A hundred percent. And I also think for me, like one of the things that I've no I've learned about myself is the reason I love being an HR and people ops is because I love developing people. I love helping people get better. And what I have learned is I actually don't have to do that in my personal life because no one's paying me to do it. I'm getting paid to do it at work, I'm not getting paid to do it at home. But I think a lot of women end up in those roles because it feels very natural to what we do at work.

SPEAKER_02 11:03

Totally. Oh, I like that. I'm not getting paid for this. Or like I I can think of like one close relationship I have where I'm certainly contributing to her in a way that's like pushing her development, but she's also doing the same thing for me. So we have just like similar wounds and stuff we're working on, and so we're really good mirrors. And so that would be the caveat that I would add is like, you know, the the no fixer uppers rule is like a good one, but I think there's space in there to be like, oh, but it's not that I'm fixing you. In that case, it's she's someone who's actively working on something and I'm consensually participating in supporting that process, but like it's driven by her or my development is driven by me. And that's completely different than like me believing I can just like love someone hard enough into not treating me like shit.

SPEAKER_00 11:56

100%. I also think when we say no fixed rep, is like it all and I'm not talking about people who are like actively trying to be better. I'm talking about someone that you are trying to convince to be better. Because what have we learned about that? You can give people all of the information, all of the education, all of the love in the world, but if they don't want to change, they're not going to. And what's actually going to happen is they're going to resent you because you tried to change them. Even if it's better.

SPEAKER_02 12:21

And I think there's probably a lot of people who like hear that and are thinking about like romantic partners because of how common that dynamic is there. But I actually also see that at work. I think in the work that that we do, kind of equity-focused people and culture, or even, you know, in my AI work. Now, my branding means that mostly people don't call me if they genuinely don't want to like do the right thing, which is a helpful, not profit maximizing, but definitely helpful business development in terms of I get to do real substantive work with people. But but I always say that, you know, my last in-house job, culture amp, um, I'm in my interview with the CEO, and I said, Hey, so, and he said, Why shouldn't I hire you? And I said, if you really just want someone who's a figurehead who can like make you look good for a PR on DEI, like I'm a terrible hire. I can do that. I'm good at comms, I'm good at marketing, I have a degree in journalism, but I am someone who will listen to you about your commitments and your values, and I will hold you accountable to what you have articulated as important. And so if you actually don't want an accountability partner, I'm gonna be the most annoying employee you've ever hired. But if you do want one, I will be the best employee you've ever hired. I mean, I got a job offer, and I can tell you after, you know, six years of working with him that like he genuinely did want someone to push him and have the hard conversations. But I don't think I would have had such a good time in that job if I hadn't on the label up front, then like here's how I am and how I show up and what I expected this relationship. And so it meant when he was opting in, he like did it on purpose. So yeah, I don't know. That that's my new thing is like, I mean, you know this, my like research interest is like consent philosophy right now. So I'm a bit insufferable. But that's the thing is like, how do I create the conditions where everyone is fully consenting to the relationship experience that we're having, like myself and others included. And for me, that means I'm putting all the red flags on the label because you might be into them.

SPEAKER_00 14:25

Well, and that was what I was gonna say. So, like, what if we use that same methodology that we all use in interviews, right? And I tell my clients this all the time set your boundaries while you're interviewing. Because if you teach people while we're flying the plane, it's a little bit harder. But if you're teaching them while the plane is still on the ground, people will actually recognize your boundaries as boundaries rather than suggestions. Who knew? But what if we use that methodology for everything in life, for our friendships, for our romantic interests, for our situationships, whatever the thing may be? How much more evolved would our relationships feel if we were very clear at

Consent Rules For Every Relationship

SPEAKER_00 15:00

the beginning how we needed to interact within them?

SPEAKER_02 15:04

I think that's totally right. And this is, you know, paper that I'm really excited about that I'll be sharing in about a month, looks at breaking down um consent into these four components. And so I want to talk about it because I'm trying to actually, like in this case, I'm applying it to AI governance, but I think it's actually just useful for life. And this actually comes from a book called The Ethical Sled, which is Jana Hardy and Dossie Easton's book about polyamorous relationships, which if you want to be polygrade, I'm not saying you have to for this to work. So, one, the purpose of the relationship is for the well-being of everybody involved. So, like, there has to be an intention that like this is a positive, beneficial thing. Two, it's fully informed. So, like you put the information needed on the table. This is the dynamic, here's how I am, here's the time I have. Like, are you cool with that? Free from coercion. So, like, you're not forcing anyone to engage. Obviously, at work, we got to pay our bills. That's tough sometimes. Because I think you and I both know that we've tolerated some bullshit in professional situations because rent is due. And and then the last one is that it's ongoing. And this is something I feel like I've learned from you that you do really well. So maybe you can talk about it. Is like the idea that you actually have the right to revoke your consent to contact or relationship at any time and kind of for any reason. And and I'm not great at that, but I watch you do that in ways that I like kind of stand and I'm like, I'm I'm attempting to emulate, but probably doing it pretty poorly right now.

SPEAKER_00 16:34

I don't and I don't know when I got good at it. I will say, like, I'll use my I have a lovely, wonderful partner now, but in my previous more messy, icky relationship, when we broke up, I the reason breakups for me don't necessarily linger is because I have two things that are very important to me. Is we are not going to drag this out and have lots of conversation in the middle. I'm not doing that. And we are not going to see each other. We are not gonna spend time together because why would we? And then I'm not going to try to cover up all the feelings, all the wounds with stuff. I'm not gonna go out drinking, I'm not gonna go just buy things on Instagram or TikTok shop because I need I need the dopamine hit. I'm gonna sit in my feelings. I'm gonna be sad, I'm gonna cry till I throw up, cry in a squat rack, whatever the thing may be. But what we're not gonna do is you're not gonna text me and have absolute access to my life when you do not deserve it. So, like when we broke up, I was very quick, I think within a week and a half, to go cold turkey and just never respond. I literally just never responded again. It wasn't even like an it wasn't even a block from the beginning. I would just like look at a text and be like, go do something else. And for me, it initially doesn't feel supernatural, but eventually it becomes second nature. And that is so much better for my brain. And again, like I'm never gonna do something to wish you harm or wish you bad, but you do not get access to my life when all you do is shit on it.

SPEAKER_02 18:00

I I mean, I feel like I've gotten better at that. But looking back at like my like romantic history, kind of like doing an average survey of a bunch of different interactions, not that this applies to every single one of them, but like there's enough of a pattern where for me, I think I've always historically been so tolerant, especially in romantic relationships, but it shows up in other places, of like people treating me like shit. Again, like I said, because I have this guilt about ending up in a really fortunate situation that I'm aware is arbitrary. Like I don't deserve goodness more than anyone else does. I think everyone does. But it means that in romantic and some friend relationships, I have stayed far past the point of like acceptability. And what I'm reflecting on is that that actually treats people that they can continue escalating their abusive behavior. So I also have like a history of going cold turkey, but it's not necessarily because of you, like like you, which is this like principled like distancing, but rather it's because by the time I make the decision to leave, someone has done something so fucking horrible that like I'm just like, wow, even I can objectively see that like no contact is the appropriate way to go. And so my journey is actually about like ratcheting down the sensitivity to be like, I can actually do that step away much earlier in the process. And I don't know if I have like the constitution to do it on the first red flag like you do, but maybe that can be my North Star while I just get to like the first time that you call me, you know, a child or suggest that I'm not a capable adult, like I can just be like, cool, then I guess all of the things I provide to your life, if you assume there's something good that I provide, like is no longer gonna be accessible to if that's your mental model of me.

SPEAKER_00 19:53

But it's interesting because you're you're not alone in that. There's an entire theory on the internet, right? That, and I think it's I want to say it's called like the hate them theory, but like that we don't leave people until we hate them, because then is then it is easy. Because how much easier is it to get to the point that you hate someone, just be like, I'm good, never call me again, cease to contact me, hesitate to contact me, do not do it again. And so we're not alone in that because it is actually the easiest mental model to leave once you already hate them. Because if you leave someone, friendship or lover or work when you still like them, or like you still think there's something that could be fixed there, you go back and you go back and you go back and you go back and you do it over and over and over and over. But is it just easier to stay until you hate them and then it's a clear-cut exit?

SPEAKER_02 20:39

So you're not alone. I cannot believe you're calling me out on a live stream. I mean, I can't. No, no, actually, that resonates so much. I think the other thing that like has been really essential for this, and there's two places it shows up for me. So in like personal relationships, whether like romantic or friendly, because like as a queer person, the boundaries are a bit fluid, but also in like allyship spaces. And and so for me, this idea of like I can just walk away, but I also have to be really discerning about whose opinion I care about. And part of that has been me really thinking about get comfortable being the villain in someone else's story. You can't dictate the narrative that someone tells you about themselves. And for me, that's required me getting really clear on like the ethical criteria of how I behave. So that, and also having a group of people who I know will like call me up if I'm being a shit, like you're one of my humans. That like, if I was being problematic, I absolutely trust you to send me a voice note and be like, you need to fix yourself. You would.

SPEAKER_00 21:50

And so what time is it? I don't know what time it is where you are.

SPEAKER_02 21:55

But like, I think that's really clear because there are people like. I'm thinking of a set of white women here that like definitely think I'm problematic and harmful, but like they're people whose like own practice I don't respect and I don't like ethically align with. So I'm like, your judgment is not the one I'm measuring against. It's people I know personally, who know me personally, who know what my values are and are really rigid about keeping me to them. And so I think that's a part of it is I was such a pick-me-girl, such a people pleaser that I wanted everyone to rubber stamp what I was doing and how I was behaving. And so I've had to conduct like really intentional constructing of a circle of people who meet my bar for integrity and who I have a good enough relationship that they will call me up when I need it.

SPEAKER_00 22:47

And I think the other thing, right, is you have to understand no matter how well you do any body of work, no one, you're never gonna get to a point where everyone agrees with you or even everyone likes you. If I had a dollar for every time I got tagged with a bunch of other DEI practitioners and I'm blocked by someone I don't know, I'm like, you know what? Bless you, protect your peace. You don't, if you don't like me, get me out of there. And I feel the same way. Like, if I am bothering you, if I'm causing causing you some harm, get me out of there. Block me. It's okay, it's okay, girlfriend. Like, do it. And I think that is it, right? Is like changing the narrative to being likable or rubber stamped acceptance, to being like, I'm just gonna do my thing, and the people who appreciate my thing are gonna find me. And the people who don't appreciate my thing, I very much hope you stay all the way over there. But sometimes you do find your way into my comment section. But overwhelmingly, you have to learn that you are not going to be liked by everyone, but you get to control who gets to share space with you.

SPEAKER_02 23:36

Yeah.

Being The Villain With Integrity

SPEAKER_02 23:37

So I want to take a bit of a swerve into a topic that I wonder if this has happened to you, because let's just be real, you're a bigger fucking deal than me in so many ways. So one thing I've encountered in my life with my like micro influencer platform, someone sent me an email and called me that once, and I was like, that's terrifying. No, thank you. But is that there are people who like personally don't like me, like they treat me really poorly. But on the internet or like in rooms where they're trying to close a deal or something, they're dropping my name and like name-checking me. And it's really interesting that these people have like interpersonal animus, but then see the value in being associated with me for whatever reason. And I'm curious, like, if that's happened to you and how you kind of navigate that. And then I guess the caveat is like when this is someone with a platform, or this is someone who like has some kind of level of power over you in some way, which might just be like being white or something.

SPEAKER_00 24:40

So I feel like it's actually recently happened to me, and I feel like you you know already. But I was talking to someone, and I was really level setting, and I was like, I don't there's something about this person that like I don't know what it is, but my gut tells me I shouldn't trust them. And the person I was talking to was like, oh, they told me you're best friends, and I was like, I beg your finest pardon. We're we're what? And I was like, don't be wrong, they have my number, but we've never met in person. And so I would I've I would have a hard time convincing myself that someone is my bestie if I've never even seen your face in the daytime. And I think that is again, we're going back to parasocial relationships here. People think that the internet is real. The internet is not real, the internet's not real. I tell you all the time if you have not seen my bare butt cheeks, we're not best friends. And that's fine. And that is fine. Aubrey has seen my bare butt cheeks. I was gonna say, but I think for me in the moment, I wasn't going to, I was just like, I don't know them. And I'm really honest, like, if you're gonna say some wild stuff, I'm going to just say the very bare minimum truth. It's gonna make you look wild, but I didn't do anything except say I don't know you like that. I mean, you know what I mean? Like, what am I gonna do?

SPEAKER_02 25:51

Yeah, anyway, I'm dealing with like a situation like that, and I just like I can't figure in in in this case, like this person has basically put some stuff on the internet about their association with me that's not accurate, and like it's also easily proven false. Like it's something that there's a lot of records for. And then I recently found out that they're mentioning me in like professional conversations, and I did not seek this out, but like people are approaching me and like asking me about it. And I'm doing the same thing. I'm saying the minimum, like, hey, thanks for asking me about this person. I've actually not worked with them in that capacity, so I'm not a good reference, but I'm happy to make an intro for you to someone who could speak to that so that the conversation can continue. But like the problem with that is that makes the person look bad. But the reality is like, I have nothing to say, like I have nothing to add to that. And so it doesn't serve that person to is to sh tell a story about being associated with me because all I can say is like no comment, like good luck to them. I hope they're really successful and accomplish what they're trying to do. But like, I don't think involving me is like net helpful. And so for me, just to be like, I don't have anything to say, but I can be helpful by like, I know someone who could be helpful, and I'm happy to like shoot an email over that way. But anyway, that's a new lesson for me is instead of like messaging them, instead of doing that, just being like, I'm actually just gonna stay all the way out of it.

SPEAKER_00 27:21

But I'm gonna challenge you. You didn't stay all the way out of it. You actually went the step further and said, I'll introduce you to someone. Why is that your labor? It is enough to say, because I'm working on my people pleasing. It is it is enough to say, Hey, I actually haven't been able to work with them in that capacity. I wish them the best, but I can't contribute here. Period, send. Period, send. That's it. You don't owe anyone more labor than that. And that's already too much labor, in my personal opinion.

SPEAKER_02 27:48

This is good. All right, personal practice.

SPEAKER_00 27:50

People will continuously mention your name, my name, people who they think will elevate them in rooms that we have no idea we're even in. And the best thing that we can do for them and ourselves is to just be truthful and honest, and that's for like, hey, I can't comment on this capacity. Best of luck. And I actually think that was even a step kinder than I would have been, because I would have just ignored the email. Not my business. I would have to do it.

SPEAKER_02 28:13

This was like a surprise in-person interaction. And I was like, oh what? Like, hmm, like I know nothing about, I literally know nothing about this. I'm so weird that like I've come up. But like, yeah, so I think that's it. Is like, okay, so I will not do the extra labor of making intros, but just saying, like, hey, I don't know, like it never occurred to me that like, like, I want someone, because I get that people back channel stuff. Like it happens. And so I'm like, cool. First of all, if you know me, if I've worked with someone and I like them, you know that I will be the most effusive. Like, I will go above and beyond to be like, they're amazing. Here's why you should work with them, here's what they did for me, all of that. And so if you're getting a like, hey, I don't know anything, and you know, since we're in HR, it's like it's like the professional equivalent of when someone calls for a reference and you know someone's a red flag. And so you go, thank you so much for calling. Given that I'm HR, I'm happy to confirm their job title and dates of employment, which is HR speak for like we fired them for a cause. Stay away.

SPEAKER_01 29:21

I can't say any further.

SPEAKER_02 29:23

And I can't say anything about it. And so anyway, I just offer that like this is my like, sorry, I can't speak, I can't be a reference in that capacity, is like the the non-HR version of that.

SPEAKER_00 29:34

100%. And I think it is a lesson, and like one of the biggest things I have learned as a recovering people pleaser is to stop going above and beyond for people who would never go above and beyond for me. And specifically people who have proven that I'm not guessing, it is apparent because you had the opportunity to just like show up generally as a decent human being, and you couldn't do that. So, why would I assume you need to go above and beyond? You won't. So, why would I do that?

Reciprocity Without Keeping Score

SPEAKER_02 30:00

I think that's fair. I mean, that just comes down to this principle of like try to give people what they're giving you. And I want to put a caveat to that because it doesn't mean that like it's always bi-directional and 50-50 all the time, right? Like, especially in your personal relationships. I also think there's this like toxic, and it's very like the Mel Robbins, like let them set back, like they're I can't, I do not read that book. Do not read it. It's so toxic. Like, I don't trust white women to tell me how to have healthy relationships as like a basic rule of how I try to human, but like this idea that like if someone becomes more work to you than you are to them at any one point, you cut them off. I don't think that's right either, because the reality is like we have hard times in our life where sometimes we need more than we take. And so for me, I also try to take like a medium to long time horizon with it. Like, I think about you and I both went through heavy shit last year. And I think there were different periods where like I was just a mess and like word vomiting at you and not really checking in with you because I was in my own like deep trauma thing. And you weren't like, oh, you're taking a lot of space right now. Like, I'm gonna cut you off. It's like on average, this is pretty even, but I get that you're in the shit.

SPEAKER_00 31:28

So I think yeah, and I think that's like the definition of friendship, of partnership, is like at some point, nothing is 50-50, right? Like some days it's 90-10, some days it's 75-25. I tried to do math in real time, and that was terrible. But that's natural. But when it is consistently 95-5 or 97-3 for long extended periods of time, I think at some point you have to examine what I am doing here. But so many of us take so long to get there, and it's at the point of burnout that we start to examine it.

SPEAKER_02 32:01

Yeah, I think that that's true for me. Like, whenever I've kind of, I'll say come out of a relationship, and I mean that in the broadest sense, like not just kind of romantic, but like whatever. And I've really like done a transformation in in terms of the way I operate, it has almost always been because I hit rock bottom and like bounced off the bottom and had to go up from there. And so my like wish for myself going forward is that I'm able to continue to generate lessons, to like be a better person in relationship and community without having to like get into the suck so much to do it. Like, I just think I'm still relieving myself of the idea that like growth has to come through abject suffering. Like, I don't think suffering is avoidable, but I don't think that like me torturing myself is like the most effective path to actually grow into the person that I am. And I think there was an underlying assumption of that for a long time in relationships that meant that like I carried a lot that I shouldn't have been.

SPEAKER_00 33:02

But I think that is so mirrored to how we all feel about capitalism, right? It feels like money should feel hard to make, work should feel like suffering, work should be the worst relationship I have. But then you turn around and you're like, that white guy sold a fake picture on the internet and he made a million dollars. It wasn't hard for him. So why do I feel like it has to be hard for me? And it's just a learned behavior, but especially as women, we are taught that love looks like suffering. We are taught that struggle, love, like if you just love them into being a better man or woman, like how how you know, how good will you feel at the end when you have this perfect life? When in actuality, like you could just find someone who's already ready.

SPEAKER_02 33:38

Totally. Or I'm thinking back to like a romantic relationship that I had where when I like communicated to this person that like it wasn't gonna work out, they were so angry. Like they were like, I never would have entered this relationship if I basically like vibes-wise was like, if I knew you were gonna give up on me. And I was like, here's the thing, I'm not giving up on you. Like, I don't think you're an irredeemable person, but the way you are treating me is intolerable, and I no longer consent to that. So, like, and in this case, I didn't see that the person was taking ownership. Like their behavior was coming from a place of trauma and struggle, but like how it was showing up was like really cruel and mean to me and making me really unhappy all the time. And so their definition of like relationship was that you like never give up on someone, regardless of how they're treating you. And so that's been a lesson for me to actually communicate like, hey, I want to share my philosophy about the difference between my unconditional love and your unconditional proximity. You are entitled to one, like you are a person, so you're worthy of dignity and my respect and my kindness to the point I have capacity, but like you are not entitled to proximity. Your rights to proximity are entirely determined by your actions toward me and whether they're acceptable. And that's been a huge lesson that thankfully, you know, happened a while ago. So I've been able to carry forward. But that's the big thing is I got tangled. How do I respect someone's dignity and show care for them? And to me, being close to them and doing labor for them was intrinsically tied up with that. And I had to decouple those things to exit from a lot of situations that were very toxic for me.

SPEAKER_00 35:28

Well, and I think, you know, when we think about that part too, is like you are also, you are not to blame for the traumas that you experience, but you are responsible for how you handle them moving forward. And I think a lot of people, rather than dealing with their trauma head on and going to therapy and doing the stuff, they live through them and then justify it through, well, I went through this thing. And so all they do is make the they make their trauma cyclical instead of being like, it ends with me, I'm the last in my bloodline to do this shit. And instead, they make it everyone in their bloodline's gonna do this shit forever. And for me, that is something that I even have to learn, right? Is like not experiencing my own trauma in the way that I behave to other people around me. And it sucks. It's hard. It's hard to call myself out and be like, Dan, you did that thing because of this thing that happened 10 years ago. Um, that doesn't feel good. But the majority of people aren't ready to have that this doesn't feel good conversation because so many of us are running from the darkest parts of ourselves because that feels better than acknowledging that, hey, you are a person who has caused harm.

SPEAKER_02 36:32

Totally. I think there's also an attitude that I try really hard to embody. And I learned this through like understanding the role that like white privilege plays in my life and what that then like gives me as a responsibility of how I move through the world. And I'm kind of talking from an idealized place here, like I'm a human who gets angry and short and like don't always live up to this, but like this is the goal, is like I have to take like my experiences as a given, but they're not an excuse. So, like for me, because of my particular history, I had a hard time reckoning with the impact and the import and the weight of my white privilege because on the other hand, I was like, but I was abandoned and had severe developmental trauma and like many sexual assaults and like abusive partners. And so I wasn't able to hold the complexity of like, I'm really privileged, and also I have this trauma. And I was mostly like in certain situations operating from my trauma place. And so I just want to like emphasize what you're saying that like for those of us who have some measure of privilege, which is most people in some vector, that like it can get really easy to weigh the trauma disadvantaged side of ourselves more heavily than the privileged side. But equally, people can play the trauma Olympics. So I'm more resolved and healed now, so I think I can hold that complexity better, but I still am very susceptible to someone going, well, I'm less privileged than you. And so therefore my behavior is justified towards you. And that's something I have to actively work to not take on because it's not true. It's like, regardless of what has happened to you, and I hope nothing terrible has happened to anyone, like, you don't have the right to be cruel to me. And if you are, what is the minimum thing I can do to get myself like out of the line of fire without disadvantaging you or harming you? And that's been like the thing that's been a practice for me lately is like I can see your pain, I can see that you're suffering and where your behavior is coming from, but I can still take a couple of steps back from it. Like, I don't, I am not owed abuse because I didn't experience a trauma that you did.

SPEAKER_00 38:56

Well, and I think that, you know, I like the old adage, you're free to throw the punch until you hit me in the nose. Um at the point that you have hurt me, I get to determine how I deal with that hurt because now it's mine. You handed it to me. And if I choose to disengage, you can blame it on your trauma, you can blame it on me, you can blame it on your mom. I don't care. I'm leaving. And you can take it up with whoever you take it up with, but I have the right at any point to withdraw my consent. You don't even need to hurt me first, you need to do something weird one time. And I think that is the part that people struggle with is consent is two sides. I get to decide when I leave the room after you've hurt me. I can decide when I leave the room in totality, and so be you. But I do think people struggle with knowing that people can and will leave. And sometimes it doesn't take a trauma or hurt, sometimes it's just not working. And I think I want to go back, I want to circle back to something you said previously when the person said, Well, I wouldn't have done this if I knew you were gonna leave. That's everything, right? Like I can apply that sentence to everything and it would make sense, right? Like I wouldn't have taken this job if I knew you were gonna lay me off. I wouldn't have been born if I knew I had to pay taxes. Like, oh gosh, that is everything. Everything in life comes with some level of risk and without knowing the outcome. People get divorced after 50, 60 years. Like it happens. And so to try and manipulate you to put that onus on you, because that's what that is, right? It's a manipulation tactic. Well, I wouldn't have done this, I wouldn't have wasted three years if I knew you were gonna leave. Okay, well, at least it was, you know, five years or 10 years and not 52 years, right? Like, I'm giving you 52 years back. Congratulations. It's like the end of a Zoom meeting where I'm like, enjoy your two minutes back, have some water. But that for me is just a manipulation tactic because at any point, anyone could leave any situation.

Unconditional Care Versus Proximity

SPEAKER_02 40:40

I think that's right. I think this is also something I'm trying to like, I'm working on this narrative specifically within the context of like my romantic relationships, but I think it's useful everywhere, which is I think there's a social script that we get handed that says that relationships are measured by their longevity. Like, relationships are successful if they last a long time. And I realize that I have ended up in situations that were really harmful to me because that was running in the back of my head. And so I've tried to reorient myself to say a relationship is successful if it was generative and positive for the people in it for whatever time it existed. And I think the reason this is so real for me right now is that, you know, like personally, romantically, I'm with someone currently that like just the way that they show up for me is like everything I've ever wanted. And I'm gonna say this out loud and you're gonna laugh at me because this is so short. It's like they consistently show up and like I know when I'm gonna see them. They chicken on me. When I'm having a really bad time, they show up and let me be a bit of a mess. And like they're really smart and ambitious. I mean, also cute. But like, that's a really short list. But the one is like they have never been cruel to me, not one time. And and I'm like, and I'm completely let go of the fact that, like, I have no idea how long this relationship will last. I'm not in a season where I'm happy to make a commitment to anybody. I'm like, I'm here because it feels good, because you're treating me good. I will try to treat you the exact same way. And it is such a relearning for me to be in relationships. And this has already happened to me in friendships to the point where I only tolerate friends who are great. But for me, this like frontier of healthy relating is in this romantic capacity where I just don't feel like I'd fully locked in until the last few months that, like, oh, people can just like it doesn't have to be paperwork. It doesn't have to be we're gonna be together for 20 years. I mean, maybe who knows? Like, I don't know what the future holds, but like I can just be like, it's great right now and it's positive, and everybody's getting a positive experience out of this. And like that can be the definition of like success. And so I kind of offer that that like success can just be that the relationship is contributing to your life in a positive way, and that's totally valid.

SPEAKER_00 43:13

Well, and I also think, right, for me personally, I am a I like to fail fast. And if this isn't gonna work for me, a success in terms of relationship is we both left before we hated each other. Because how many people stay in relationships because of that idea that longevity is success and wind up dead because of it? Oh yeah. Or wind up miserable or wind up with someone they hated for 50 years, knew they hated them, but they were like, Well, I just gotta, I gotta, I gotta see it through. You don't, you actually don't have to see it through. And I your list is short, but to be fair, the dating bar, it the bar is in hell. The bar is in hell.

SPEAKER_02 43:51

But very similarly, like I will, I will say, like, I've now become the little like dating coach for A little pot of friends. And the reason is because everyone, so everyone is like, the male dating pool is really terrible. And I'm like, actually, I'm having an amazing time. Like the quality of like my dating life is through the ceiling presently. And part of it is that I'm deploying these tactics, which is one, I'm putting all of my weirdness and like conditions and what I'm looking for right on the label. So like you are getting on the first date the full thing. So that if you're opting in, it's like eyeballs wide open. But also for me in particular, with cis men, the like the first whiff of a red flag, I'm like, hey, yo, thanks so much for the drink. I need to go. And so that means that the people who like get through the filters are actually like the most incredible, amazing people. And so I just want to like offer that that you can be like, here's me, here's the terms and conditions. And the moment that you do something that's not aligned to how I feel good, I'm just gonna say thank you next. And so yeah, for me, now that I feel like I'm currently nailing that in my like dating life, I'm like, my friends, I already nail that. What does that look like at work? Like, that's a lesson that applies everywhere. But anyway, I don't know. Like, I'm just really excited. I have like a new skill that is really adding to my life, which to be fair, I think you are part of the origin of me learning that because our origin story is like you're like, How did you meet your best friend? We got seated next to each other at an HR conference once.

SPEAKER_00 45:38

Actually, it was a secret dinner, to be fair. No one knew who was gonna be at my dinner. Yeah, this is where I was I was across from the man with the 10-gallon hat.

SPEAKER_02 45:45

Oh yeah. And do you know the cheese people at that dinner like ended up on national commercials? And I was like, I did dinner with them once. I see them on the Amex commercial all the time.

SPEAKER_00 45:54

I'm like, oh, it's always cheese. But I'm like, I remember them being lovely, so I love that for them. And it's interesting because like I also I can't say that the bar for dating is hell, like my partner is lovely, but I was also very clear with like what I wanted. That I am weird, I don't, I'm not a domestic kind of girly, but I did have like wild dating stories before then, and but like my favorite thing in the world when I'm dating is to tell a man where he can go and how he can get there. And quickly, like I was I went on like several dates with someone over 12 days, like last year at some point. And he sent me a five-page note in the app, like an Apple note, to which I it was so long I recorded. I had to put it in chat TBT, and I was like, Can you summarize this? And she was like, We would danger girl. And then he was like, Oh, I'm driving by your house and I see that there's a car there and I'm crashing out. I was like, Sir, I don't know you. Like you and I literally called him, I was like, You are never gonna see me again. You're never gonna drive by my house again. A, I'm a gun owner, B, I call the cops, leave me alone. And I am really quick, like, I'm not gonna, you're not gonna apologize to me. And I woke up to 161 specific text messages apologizing. I don't care how many times you apologize. That's also wild. The the inkling of a red flag in dating, in friendships, in interview processes, I'm out. Because if you're showing me a red flag now, guess what color the flags are in about six weeks, about nine weeks. They're on fire.

Red Flags Repair And Real Apologies

SPEAKER_02 47:15

Totally. And I think the I to be fair, I don't hard cut at a red flag. I wait to see what happens when I point it out. And the reason for that is because, like, even applying this to myself, like I have really high standards and sets of values about how I want to behave. I do not achieve those standards 100% of the time. Like, I'm a human, I have feelings, I'm petty, like, right? Like, I'm I'm imperfect, but I'm working towards it. And so a big thing for me, and this actually in the relationship that I'm talking about, I was really clear up front. I was like, a non-negotiable for me is that you have to be willing to physically say you're sorry when you've hurt me. I don't expect you to be perfect, but like it is not negotiable because I've been in situations where that wasn't present. And what it does for me, because my initial programming is so wired that like I deserve to be neglected, I deserve to be abused, that when someone hurts me and doesn't apologize, it reinforces that narrative that I am not even worth apologizing to, because like I am so I'm of such low value as a person that hurting me is not a consideration other people should have. And so I said that to this person. I was like, it's okay if you mess up, but like if you can just come back and be like, yo, I'm really sorry. Here's what happened, here's how I'm trying not to do it again. Like real basic apology. But that for me is is something where in some ways someone messing up or hurting me can actually strengthen the relationship. Because if that happens, if someone like looks at what they did, I'm like, oh, but that is a green flag that you take accountability, that you're working towards being a person who has a positive impact. And now, depending on the nature of the red flag, it might just be like, thanks so much, but goodbye. But for a lot of people, I think that's the other kind of lesson I want to take to this is we're talking a lot about setting boundaries because you and I have the particular trauma of like holding on. But I think there's also something in the positive discourse. It's like the first time someone does something imperfect, cut them off immediately. And I think in a lot of cases that's justified. But I think as a culture, we have sometimes gone so far in the other direction that we don't allow people to mess up in a good faith way. And for me, the standard of how you consider that is whether they are owning and actively repairing and taking accountability for whatever they did that had a negative impact.

SPEAKER_00 49:41

I think for me, and obviously like evolved relationships, right? Like if my partner did something to bother me now, I'm not gonna be like, take your backpack and go. No. Totally. But for me, I think as aquarium as well, in the very beginning stages of dating, I am not doing all that labor to like inform you that you hurt me. Totally. How are you gonna figure it out? We're just not gonna figure it out, and that's okay. But I wanna, in our last couple minutes,

Choosing Differently And Seeking Joy

SPEAKER_00 50:05

I have a really interesting question for you specifically. And it I'm also in a very similar season of my life now, is I realized I thought everything I thought I wanted is not what I wanted. And I think there are many ways in which you're also experiencing that too. And so I want to talk a little bit about in our relationships, platonic, romantic work, what happens when you just decide you're gonna choose differently? What is like the moment where you're like, I just don't want to do this anymore? But more importantly, how is it showing up and how does it feel to choose differently than what you thought you had to do previously?

SPEAKER_02 50:41

Yeah, so I am talking kind of about a multi-year arc at this point to like arrive. Like last year was certainly I learned a ton of lessons, but I think like this has been building for a really long time, is the quality of my life has shot through the roof. And I'm measuring it completely differently, but the quality that's different is all of my time is being spent in three areas necessity, which is like paperwork and taxes and the stuff I have to do to be a functional person, payment, meaning I'm getting paid for things that might otherwise be annoying or whatever, or they are just generative and wonderful. And there's crossover, like there's many things I now do to get paid that are just joy. Like, like I'm just thinking of a group of people that I work with that, like we giggle and we laugh and we do important work and we're good at what we do. And like the reason I ended up in that situation is because I was really clear up front about who I was and what I had to offer. And they were like, Yeah, we're into it. We would like to work with you on this thing. And you know, I've got a full-time job and clients, so like that happens a lot. But that's it, is like I had to let go of the people pleasing and the actual outcome of greater discernment and a broader willingness to revoke my consent is that I am like I still have trauma, I still have hard stuff. I am so much happier, but it required me to kind of say fuck you to like the external version of what success looks like. So there are ways in which, from like a normative society perspective, my life is quote, worse. They're just not ways I care about because I actually said, What would I do if I was just trying to make me happy? And so, like, I wish I could hand that as like a package thing to everyone and be like, do whatever you want within the bounds of not punching someone else in the face, right? Like, and I don't know, I a million people are like, Aubrey, this is a really basic realization, but I'm telling you, for me, it has been a phenomenal quality of life upgrade.

SPEAKER_00 52:53

What about for you prioritizing people who wish to seek joy for you and with you?

SPEAKER_02 53:02

Yeah, like so there's this concept called conversion in like ENM relationships, which is like the joy that you get when your partner gets joy from one of their other partners, or like some people call it empathetic joy. Brene Brown has a version of this called Freudenfreude in like Atlas of the Heart. And like, I'm actually really seeking out relationships in every area of my life where when something good happens to me, people around me feel joy about that because that is the relationship I seek to have with other people, is like whatever makes you happy and you get that, I feel lucky just to get to witness that that's something that you have. And I just woke up and realized that I could have like I could require that of the people around me that like you know, I think about you and I, we work in adjacent fields. It would be so easy for us to be competitive. And like, I don't, I don't for many reasons, like we're very different people. So the things that we want are different, but like there's never been that in this. Like, it's always like if you get something badass, even if it's a thing I would have wanted, it doesn't occur to me to like be jealous. It occurs to me to be like, oh my God, I love you. I'm so excited about it. And like, I actually can just demand that people treat me that way. And yeah, I don't know, it's super liberating and freeing. Not that I don't backslide, but like that's the space I'm trying to occupy. But what about you? What do you feel like was an unlock for you that allowed you to sit in this kind of like don't give a fuck space a bit more?

SPEAKER_00 54:42

Um, I don't know. I think it's like a it's again, it's a combination of things, and I think dating someone and being with someone who like truly loves you for like the ethos that you are is wonderful and beautiful, but it also then all of a sudden makes you realize that people previously that you were with hated you, which is also like a terrible unlock because you're like, I did all these things and I uplifted them and I didn't hate them and they hated you. And for me, that was the unlock was you can do so much for people and it never mattered to them at their core. And then there are people who you do nothing for them and they love you at your core. So I might as well just be me and see what comes through. Because the people who love you the most don't care how successful you are. They don't care how much money you have, they don't care if you've done your hair today, they just care that you exist because that is enough. And so, why is that not enough for me? I'm my oldest, longest relationship. Shouldn't that be enough for me too? And that was kind of the unlock paired with like the thing I've been thinking about a lot is we grow our lives, we grow our skill sets to climb the you know proverbial ladder, make more money, buy the house, do the thing, and then you get to do the thing, and then you never get to touch the thing because you don't have time, you're too tired, you're too absorbed in your work, you never look up for your phone. You go on vacation just to take the Instagram photo, but you never mention I haven't even looked up to look at my partner or like at where I am. I just made my life Instagrammable. I made a life that other people could look at, but I could never touch. And what is the fun in that? Why would I want to do that? Well, it's because what we're told to do. I think I've been I've been using the example lately when you go to a concert now, everyone's like with their phone. And I'm like, is anyone watching the concert? Your friends don't want to see this. All you're doing is proving that you're at the concert, so your friends feel jealous that you're at the concert and they're not.

SPEAKER_02 56:27

Oh my God. I the other thing. I I'm on the other side where I suck at taking photos because I really like to be in a place. And so, like, often we'll be like, I'll go back in my photos and be like, I have no pictures from an entire month in 2023. Like, how is that possible? It's like, no, I was living my life. But I want to maybe punctuate all of this with research

Happiness Research Work Detachment Body Clues

SPEAKER_02 56:50

because you know, in that's who you are. Insufferable nerd is that the longest study on human happiness in history, which was done by Harvard over like 70 years or something. I don't know, Google it, correct my specific facts. But the the key finding was that the quality of your relationships was the number one predictor of your happiness in life. And not only was it like an emotional fact, but it actually showed up physiologically in terms of like risk for heart disease and things like that. Lonely people die earlier. And so, like, whether you care about longevity or anything like that, like really finding a way to improve the quality of your relationships is like the number one thing that you can do. And so, yeah, I just want to put that out there that like you can trust us because I don't know, maybe you think we have something useful to say, but like the empirical research shows that this is actually the key to have having a long and fulfilling life. And, you know, for those people, I don't want to judge who are hustling because they're trying to like maximize their economic contribution. I think that's different than folks who are in survival mode. That is not what I'm talking about. But like I can promise you the data, like if you're if you're pulling in 300,000 a year and you're like crushing yourself to get to five, like your your actual happiness is not gonna be higher at that. And like it is so hard to believe that in your body when everything in the world tells you that's not true. But at least for me, like I read that study and I was like, I feel that all the way down in my bones. And like the cool thing is I'm 37, also fellow Virgo, I'll be 38 in August. It's like I have so much time left to live knowing that like I can build and create and maintain relationships that are generative for me. And like, how much fun does the next like 40 plus years, if I'm lucky, look like? If that's true.

SPEAKER_00 58:48

Well, and I also like remember for me personally, when I was making the most amount of money, I was the least healthy I've ever been, physically, emotionally, and mentally. And very recently I have been really teaching myself the art of emotionally detaching from my work, not about caring less about my skill set or less about my craft, but caring less about the people on the other side. Because every time I'm thinking about my boss at 9 p.m., guess what? I'm taking a pay cut because it's an hour that I'm not being paid to work. But I'm working, my brain is working. So every time I do that, I'm taking a pay cut. But when I start to truly emotionally divest from how these people feel about me, because it is simply a job. It is a thing I do, the way I go to the gym, the way I go to the grocery store, it's just something part of my life. It's not my personality. Guess what? My periods got better. I haven't had a single tension headache. I poop on a regular schedule now, I'm not bloated all the time. Like the I think we all forget how our body, like it's all connected, right? And so when your relationships truly do not bring you joy and they bring you harm and they bring you nervousness and they bring you anxiety, how that manifests in your body. Like when you look at my face in previous iterations of relationships, my face was I wasn't even bigger, but my face was because I was like heavy on the cortisol.

SPEAKER_02 59:56

You were also gray.

SPEAKER_00 59:58

I looked like a sick Victorian child all the time. Like I look back at pictures of myself and I was like, I don't understand because I was in the Caribbean all the time. Why was I so gray?

SPEAKER_02 1:00:07

I mean, I didn't know that until you stopped being gray. And then I was like, oh, Maddie has warm skin tones. Like what? Um different undertones than I thought. But yeah, no, no, no. I've obviously seen that. I mean, it's been years that that we've been close. But yeah, I see that certainly looking at the way I existed, you know, seven years ago or whatever, and and it's shown up in, you know, my weight, in in my face. Like, I look at pictures from a few years ago, and I know what was going on in my my life at that time, and I look at how drawn I look, and like how much I look like I need Botox and like all of this. And now I've had a few people in like the last couple of months who have seen a photo of me from when I was like 22, because it's like the photo from when I set up my Gmail account in college, and I've just never changed it. Weird thing to say online. And someone goes, You look the same. And like, I don't think so. Like, I got a deeper smile, you know, like this skin tone which is like milk. But but like I realized that I'm just in a really good place, and it shows up in my face, and these people who, you know, didn't see the last nine years of of what was going on, like don't know that. And so they don't know that I looked differently in the middle, and I I look younger now, and I think it's because I'm just being really intentional about like great friendships, and I have wonderful people that I work with and do cool stuff with and and all of that.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:46

It's true. What I've learned is I'm much hotter when I'm happy, and it doesn't gym. Like it's it's just it's something about the way you show up and the way you feel in your own body. Like, I feel like I have ownership of my body again because when I was in relationships, work real work, platonic or romantic, where I didn't feel like I was in control because I was always waiting for the next shoe to drop. It is like you don't have ownership of your body because you're just waiting for the next bad thing to happen, and that just bad thing takes over your body and you're anxious again and you're scared again, and you just live in that cycle forever. And now I don't feel that way. I'm brown again. Who knew?

SPEAKER_02 1:02:19

I feel like this is the mic drop is revoke your consent to relationships that don't work for you so

Where To Follow And Final Sendoff

SPEAKER_02 1:02:25

you can be hot.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:27

That's it. Well, we are at 6 03 p.m. And it's actually 8, 9, 9 03 a.m. for you, right? It's 8 03 a.m. I don't know how time zones work. I lied to you how time it was. Oh, god, okay. Well, it's very early for you, and so I want you to go kick off your workday as the haughty baddie that you are. And anything you want to add before I tell people to go away.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:51

Yeah, you can follow me on LinkedIn if you're interested in political analysis and AI ethics, follow me on LinkedIn, launching a new pod project soon.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:00

So and I know that Aubrey said I'm way cooler than her. I'm not, I know nothing of any of the stuff that she does. Like, she has a very big brain, and I have also a big brain, but in a very different way. She's so cool. Like when I tell you, like, there is no one in the world I look up to the way I look up to her. And so if there's someone that you could follow on the internet, it should be her. She should have a bigger platform. I mean, I don't want to be called a micro influencer either or a thought leader, except for that one woman on LinkedIn who has thought leader merch, but it's thought like thought.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:30

Oh, I like that.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:32

Um, I will leave that in here.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:34

Okay, so one of my favorite things about Maddie is that she has as many followers on LinkedIn as Steph Curry, um, which brings two of my favorite parts of life together. But also, yeah, follow Maddie, both because she takes no shit from people on the internet and you can learn from that, but also because I think you are one of the bravest humans online in that you're trying to be a professional who's like a fucking badass in terms of skills that you bring. But I like see the way you show up online as so uncompromising of allowing people to be complex, full humans and not just a name tag. And like that's something that has absolutely contributed to like my quality of life, even outside of the fact that I am wildly fortunate to get to be your bestie. So yeah, following Maddie. Although you probably already do, which is a great life choice.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:23

Also, this is like what your best friend friendship should feel like. Like, no jealousy, you just love each other unconditionally, even if you love nine bajillion miles apart, and it's what time is it? It's I don't know how many hours it is. If it's six eight oh five, I don't know. I don't, I don't even know what time zone you're in ever. I'm in Eastern Standard till Wednesday. Okay. Well, thanks for crashing out with me. Always anything you want, anytime. Well, thank you everyone for a late night crash out. I appreciate y'all. Well, I guess late night, unless you're Aubrey. But thank you for coming. We'll be live again tomorrow at 12 Eastern Standard Time. You'll be able to catch the rerun here and on all of the podcast streaming platforms. But as always, remember people around you are crashing out. And if you're crashing out too, you have a friend and me. Come find me, let's crash out together. But until next time, happy crashing out, y'all.