Crash Out With Me.

Crash Out With Me: Be Real, That's The Strategy

• Madison Butler

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The internet keeps handing us the same recycled “insights” with a new filter, and we’re supposed to call it community. Madison sits down with Vanessa Smithers, a narrative consultant, poet, writer, and legacy archivist, to talk about the rise of Substack, the flood of AI-generated writing, and the weird new normal where people copy paste a robot’s voice and charge real money for it. We’re not anti-AI. We’re anti-empty. If you’ve felt your feed getting louder while saying less, you’re not imagining it.

We dig into what algorithms reward, especially for Black creators and anyone who gets boxed into a stereotype for views. We talk about the dopamine trap of engagement, why “authenticity” online can become a curated performance, and how to build a personal brand on LinkedIn or Instagram without letting metrics decide your worth. Vanessa shares the practices that help her stay grounded, including treating hobbies as joy instead of output and choosing what stays offline.

Then we crash out about privacy and consent in public life: filming strangers at the gym, recording run clubs, documenting every trip for “content,” and the way constant consumption kills tenderness. Vanessa also breaks down why being labeled a “content creator” can feel flattening when the work is art, emotional labor, and lived experience. We close with a hard truth about equity conferences and professional events that ask marginalized speakers to work for exposure or even pay to speak, plus what it really means to value your intellectual property

work with Vanessa.

https://www.vanessasmithers.com/

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Welcome Back And Meet Vanessa

SPEAKER_01

And we're live. Hello, everyone. Welcome back to Crash Out With Me. It's been a week. I was away, and I'm working on not working while I'm away. So welcome back. If you are new here, my name is Madison Maddie B if you know me. And the reason I created this is a reminder that everyone has something that they're crashing out about. Everyone has something that is taking up brain space for them, and a reminder to be kind because everyone's got some shit that they're going through. I am super excited about my guest today. This is like a little bit of a fangirling moment, but we're gonna keep it to a middle. But I am so excited to chat with you. Do you want to give us a little intro? Sure.

SPEAKER_00

This is like the thing that I'm not so great at. Maybe I could crash out about that. But, anyways, hey, hi, everybody. My name is Vanessa Smithers. I was just telling Madison. I am originally from Toronto, Ontario, Canada. I've spent a large majority of my life moving through the world and in different places. I was living in New York for about six years, just moved back not too long ago. I am a narrative consultant, a writer, a poet, and a legacy archivist. So I support folks in developing narratives that will outlive them. So whether that be through their nonprofits, their corporation, their individual creative endeavors, professional lives, yeah, that's me. And I'm Crash Out Queen. So really glad to be here because it's very fitting. So what do you want to crash out about first, at least?

Substack Hype And AI Think Pieces

SPEAKER_00

What do I want to crash out about first? So I think the first thing, I know that we spoke about like the content creator situation, but I think that the thing that is weighing heaviest on me right now as a writer, as creative, if you if you yeah, I guess I guess I can apply that here is the rise of Substack. So for those who don't know what Substack is, it's a platform for writers and creatives and really just like anybody at this point to go onto the platform and write articles and notes and share information. And I've been on the platform for quite some time, really just started boosting it up during my past birthday in October because I was like, hey, where else can I write? Where else can I share my writing and potentially generate income and support from that? Because I do a lot of it on social media and just like in my more professional career, right? And so I have noticed lately that there is a surge in everybody being on Substack. And I am all for people trying out things. I'm all for just like creativity, sharing thoughts, being yourself, just showing up. But the problem that I'm having now is everybody is on Substack, and folks are using AI to generate these really long think pieces and then charging people for them to read them. And so, as a writer, as someone who takes hours to write something and who has taken like 20 years to build this very intentional community online, I just have a lot of thoughts around the rise of everyone's a writer now, and maybe I sound like a hater, but that's my crash out. That's my fair, right?

SPEAKER_01

I am a certified hater. We we love a hater. I love that you're gonna be like I use AI to write my no, I am so I tell people I am a hater and I'm always a hater backed up with data. So it's okay to be a hater on the show. We love that, and I get it. I I keep saying I'm gonna do a Substack, and then I keep not doing it. I don't I don't know why. I'm so so the majority of my content, right, is on LinkedIn, and it's super interesting because I have written my content essentially in the same format for 10 years. I use very specific spacing, and over time I started seeing more people kind of using that format, and I was like, whatever, trend and set her. But now I'm also seeing people using that format and it's coming straight from AI, and I'm like, did I program the internet? And I know obviously it's not me, but I recognize where AI can be super helpful, right? To like help you polish a sentence where I'm like, is this spelled correctly? Is my semicolon in the right place? But it is so easy to also take AI if you're gonna use that route, and then like also make it sound like you. And people aren't even doing that, they're truly copy-pasting directly from ChatGBT, and they're not even saying, like, hey, make it sound like me. Like, they're not even going like the full gambit of like what you could do with AI. They're just like literally copy pasting it and then hoping that can be a bet. Right. But I think that is actually so. My crash out is it's not necessarily similar, but same but different. People jump on the bandwagon to make money without fully understanding the bandwagon at every turn. We did this with DEI in 2020. How many people jumped on the DEI bandwagon? And now you look around, you're like, where are those people? And you're like, Oh, you're you're an AI consultant now. What do you know? And that for me is so frustrating that people consistently hop on whatever they think is going to make them money. And this realizing it like actually involves a skill set. And I say that to like we have books, we both have books. Right. I had to write this with my brain, and it took a long time, right?

SPEAKER_00

And this is that's the issue that I have, to where like I have invested my whole life into writing and storytelling and connecting people, and this is another thing too, right? To where it's like a lot of folks that are doing this, they're writing articles about community and connection and all of these things. And I'm just like, but girl, your whole thing is written by a thing, by a robot, that is not, it's not nurturing community, it's not nurturing creativity and connection. And kind of going back to what you were saying, it's like AI can be a great tool, but let's not use it as a crutch. I use AI so often as a neurodivergent person, as far as like brainstorming. Yesterday I wrote like a whole calendar for the rest of the year with like time blocks and all of these things. So, like, it's great for that. It can be great for copy editing if you are using like the right AI and if you know already what you are looking for. So if you are already someone who is relatively well-versed in a lane, at least you're able to identify like false information. You're able to identify this is a sentence structure problem. You're able to identify, like, hey, this doesn't sound like me. Maybe I should adjust this a little bit. So, like, I'm all for even using AI for like accessibility reasons, accommodations, all types of different things. But like, it's the same thing to me as the fitness influencers that get the BBLs, and then they're jumping on the internet telling everybody else how to how to work out. That to me is really wild. And that I think is what is happening with AI. This is not you, girl. Like, you didn't, you didn't you didn't make this. Like, that's be so serious. And then you're charging people $300 a year to read it.

unknown

What?

SPEAKER_01

So I just found out my favorite fitness influencer got our body done, and I was broke. And I was like, how dare you? How dare you think make me think this was achievable? Damn it. Like, go ahead, do you? Like, do you and I love that, right? But like be honest.

SPEAKER_00

Tell the truth. Like, that's where I have the problem. And I crash out. So now I'm in this process of taking my things off of Substack for even just other reasons around Substack that have come out as of recently. That I'm not gonna jump into that, but I'm also all for like ownership, really, to the best that we can as far as like using our own domains to house our blogs and our thoughts because like we can control kind of like what happens there, and it's just it's just there. So I'm leaving because it's just too much of the same shit every time I log on.

SPEAKER_01

So well, and I think that goes, I say this a lot. Like, I built my platform here on LinkedIn, and it literally leaves me up to the whims of LinkedIn, right? Like, I have to watch what I say, watch what I do because they own my platform, which for me is how I make money. Um, it's my access to clients, it's my access to platform, like being platformed. And so I also agree, like the more often you can house your content literally anywhere else, or a place that at least you own, like it's actually yours, right? Because nothing I do on this website is actually mine, right? And I think people forget that a little bit is like there's I don't know if anyone else uses it, but there's an app called Shield where you can like look at your usage data for LinkedIn, right? Like how many followers you've gotten, but it also has like cost per click, like how much money you've made them by your platform. Okay. And everything I do, I'm like, I'm nauseous.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, say, don't say so.

SPEAKER_01

So one of the things that you would want to crash out about that I actually think ties in is the emptiness

Empty Social Media And Lost Critical Thinking

SPEAKER_01

of social media. There's so much stuff and very little substance. And obviously, some of that has to be because so much of it is AI created. And again, like I'm not anti-AI, but I have seen the same post. There is a post that I saw today that I was like, didn't you already post this? And I was like, no, somebody else posted this. And it was like bar for bar, and it's like hiring is broken because of AI. And I was like, it's the same post, and y'all used AI to write it, and you're talking about shit about AI, but you wrote it with an AI like fuck the circles. And so as a true writer, like as a true creative, we're like, you understand the process is it's time consuming, it's not just regular labor, it's emotional labor. What do you think the impact of filling the internet, filling blogs, filling social media with fluff? Like, what is the impact of that on the people who consume it?

SPEAKER_00

So as someone who, as like a consumer, I so I guess, yeah, as folks that are exposed to these things, as somebody who is exposed to these things, I think that it really has the potential to create disconnection, a fake reality. And like it's it's like everybody has an opinion that isn't necessarily theirs. So it's like people are just becoming even more so like sheep, as far as just like flocks of people just moving in the same direction. And it's like, where's the critical thinking? Where's the authenticity? And for a second there, I thought that we were moving a little closer to people craving authentic connections and community and and just like wanting more real bodies on the internet and like real conversations and just like the ability to show up as themselves. But I think with all of these things that seemingly are the same, it's just we're back in the melting pot again. And in I think the world is ending personally, and so if the world is ending, is this how we're gonna go out? Like, did our ancestors, especially as like black folks, like, is this what they did all of that for for for this? And so I find it just like a really wild experience, and just like as somebody who prides themselves on being a transparent person, as someone who has worked through hell and high water to show up as this person, because I haven't always been this person. I was I was always like very shy and very quiet and very, should I say, can I say, can I go here? Should I go here? Should I post this? Can I talk about this? And then it's like now at 37 to be this person that is authentic in a world that seems like it is so fake, it's just like also a mental, it's like a mental mind fuck for like lack of a better term. So yeah.

Algorithms Reward Stereotypes Over Real Life

SPEAKER_01

I mean, even if we take AI out of it, right? Like if we use the algorithm of TikTok, right? Like what the algorithm likes is like white girls opening their fridge, and they're like, and I'm like, why does that have 12 million views? I'm like, you I can open my fridge, I can I can do it. And I think that's really interesting, right? Is like the algorithm also plays a giant role in what you see because the majority of platforms, you're not just seeing the content of who you're connected with, you're seeing what it feeds you. And so I've also noticed as a I do a lot of video creation as well. Like, I only hit the algorithm when I fulfill the stereotype as a black woman.

unknown

Yes.

SPEAKER_01

When I make a video about being angry, I pop off. When I make a video about being like sweet, tender, and cutesy, no. Like, you want to hear about how much I love my partner? Three views. Uh you want to hear about how I had to get walked out of the gym because men are creepy, a bajillion views, but it's all men being like, you're not hot enough for men to be creepy. Like, so it also feeds your content to the wrong audience. And so that I think is also such an interesting topic in a world where we say we want authenticity. It is almost like this pre-packaged version. It makes it reminds me of that episode of Spongebob where he's like really smooth. Um, like they want the like smooth, curated, controllable version of authenticity. And so I would love to know like how you have combated that within your own writing, in your own journey, because that's something that I also have, right? Is like I haven't always been this version of me. I also used to test the waters. Like, can I post this? What can I post? I would do this. I would like post something that I would think is spicy, and then like close my laptop. And when you send a dirty text, you're like, okay, I sent that really spicy text. I'm gonna go do something.

unknown

All right.

SPEAKER_01

And I don't do that anymore. Like now I just don't care, but I also know that it doesn't necessarily benefit getting my content seen. And so, how have you navigated that without internalizing how it reflects on actually how good your content is?

SPEAKER_00

So for me, so what you're asking is like how have I like moved past like all of these, like what we should be doing or like what the internet says, right? So I have tested, so like I've been on social media and Facebook Memories is always notorious for reminding me how long I've been on the internet, like talking shit. And so so I have been testing these waters for quite some times, and the things that I used to say on the internet are like so outlandish in comparison to what I say now, especially like moving back through like college and whatever. So it's like I feel like I've been on this journey of putting my foot out and seeing like what works best, right? And so I think for me, I've like tried the curated version of Vanessa. I have tried like the fancy pose and the get ready with me and the come to the gym with me. And like, there's nothing wrong with any of that by any means, but that's just like that's not me. That's not who I am. That's not stuff that I enjoy. Like, that is stuff that I will begin to loathe if I turn it into content, right? And so for me, it's like I feel as if I built this really beautiful community online and also offline just through being myself. And so just through like testing that out and seeing, hey, what would it look like if I just like did the things that I want to do, and not because I should do them, but because I want to do them, talking about the things that I want to talk about. And that so far has brought me the most like success, if you want to call it that. And that is like how I think I've been able to sustain my business because it just it just feels like I just wake up and I just do it, where people are like, oh my gosh, it looks like it just takes so much work. You're always posting, you're always this, you're always that. And I'm like, well, as a neurodivergent person, I'm always thinking about like 9,000 things at once. So it's actually very easy for me to like not have to curate and to be able to just like mind dump on the internet all day. And that's what brings the people that I want to work with to me, because the people that come to me, they are typically folks that might struggle a little bit with wanting to put themselves out there and then they meet me and they're like, Well, I see how you do it, like show me the way. Or it's already people who are like very solid and able to kind of just sit on or stand on, like who they are at that point in time. So it has just brought all the people, whether it be friends, romantic relationships, clients, it's just brought the people that I need my way because they need me too. So yeah, it's just I just can't. If I was to spend so much time thinking about all the ways in which the internet says I should show up, I would have like no no life. Like I can't get on TikTok because I'll have a mental breakdown, I'm pretty sure. And so I just stick to what I know and what is comfortable. I'll take risks in other areas, but with things like this, if it's not broken, why fix it? I can just show up, and that's good enough. And I really want people to hopefully get to a point, whether it be back to a point or to a point where they understand that you can just show up as is. Like this, for all we know, is our one life. Why show up as anything but you? Why? Why are we doing this?

SPEAKER_01

So well, so I

Escaping The Dopamine Content Trap

SPEAKER_01

think that brings me. I have so many questions, but I think one of the things that we see happen, right, is like we recognize that the internet, especially when you have a following, can be a dopamine source. Yes. And everyone is chasing that high. They're chasing the likes, they're chasing the shares, they're even chasing the angry reactions, even if they say they're not. And one of the things when you show up as you, right, like content is easy because I'm literally just talking and I'm already talking in my head, so like I might as well just out loud, whether it be through writing or through video. But I think for a lot of people, rather than being themselves, they truly think of themselves as a content machine, which means they're making content that isn't necessarily authentic to them, but what they think is going to feed the algorithm, and then you're back in this like cycle of like crap, you know, that video didn't hit, I didn't get any likes, my content is bad. How did you kind of escape being in that cycle where what you posted or how you felt about what you posted wasn't necessarily determined on how many people liked it or shared it or engaged with it?

SPEAKER_00

Because what like for me, I think at this stage of life that I'm in right now, is like I don't really care about much unless it's like, unless it's directly related to my community, unless it's related to like the bigger picture of the world, unless it's connected to, you know, like things that actually like matter to me. And so the internet to me, while it's a source of community, it's a source, you could even say, yeah, like of dopamine, it's a source of connection and being able to share. It's like my world won't end. And like I just am able to, I don't know how, but just like just exist in the fact that like if you like it, you like it. And if you don't, well, that's okay. And I've also noticed, too, is that a lot of people that come to me, they might not necessarily even follow me on the internet. They're like, I've seen your content, and like, so who engages with our content might not necessarily, or sorry, the people that see our content might not necessarily always be the ones that like engage with it, but they might recognize us off the internet. So it's like you just never know how things are landing for different people. And if that's what I'm basing my livelihood off of, well, like I'm doomed. Like I'm doomed. And I just know for me, the trajectory of my life, a large part of it was spent so deeply being concerned about what other people think. And like, well, what who do I need to be? What do I need to be? I want to be like this, I don't want to be like this. But then I'm like, yo, even like as far as the internet is concerned, like I am doing myself a disservice. I'm doing like the creator, whoever, whatever that is. I I that's like an insult. Like, I was put here as myself. Why am I like on this rat race to be anybody but me and to base my value off of what's happening on the internet? Like, I love the people on the internet, don't get me wrong, but like, oh yeah, right if the internet doesn't show up, like you can like it. And sometimes I have 40,000 followers on Instagram. Some of my shit, it will get like 12 posts, 12 likes, and I'm like, okay, like cool. I don't care.

SPEAKER_01

Same very, I mean, I don't have 40,000 followers, but sometimes I'm like four likes.

SPEAKER_00

Nice. Thanks, Mom. It can't be a machine because even like it's national poetry month, right? April. And so at the beginning of the month, I said to myself, hey, I'm gonna do 30 days of poetry. No, I quit today. I made a post. I was like, listen, I'm done. Because as soon as it starts to feel like a machine, like as soon as I start to feel like I need to keep doing this for something outside of myself, like great. I understand the people love the poetry. They want to read it, they wanted this and that or whatever. Like, I love that. But like, I don't want to do it. Now the thing that I find so enjoyable is not enjoyable anymore. I don't want to write a poem. So I'm leaving. Like, I'm not doing this. Like I can't.

Hobbies Without Monetizing Everything

SPEAKER_01

Well, that's why I think one of the like phrases, like, find what you love and never work a day in your life. I actually think that sometimes doesn't work, right? Because when you turn the thing you love into what feels like a facet of capitalism, you actually learn to hate it pretty quickly. Um, like I played college soccer and I didn't enjoy it at all because it became Not fun because they were like, I was getting yelled at. And I was like, well, why am I getting yelled at? Like, why that that no longer is fun for me. And I think people forget that. Like, I try to tell people, like, when I'm coaching, you don't have to turn everything that you love into a monetizable hobby. That's capitalism telling me that. You do not, everything you create and produce does not have to even be seen by the rest of the world.

SPEAKER_00

Like you could have a hobby. It's okay. Like you can have hobbies, you can have things that you love. Like it's fine. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And your hobby doesn't even have to produce something. Like I try to tell people all the time. Like, I have people who like they need it to have an end, right? Like, they need to make a wooble because at the end you have a wooble or whatever. No. And I'm like, what if you what if you just had a hobby that didn't have an outcome?

SPEAKER_00

Just enjoy yourself. Like I do random stuff all the time. And like sometimes I do fall into the trap of like it needs an outcome. It needs an ending. Like, even when I go for walks, I'm like, at the end of this walk, I need a treat. It's like, no, you don't. Like, you can just take the walk. Like, you don't need a treat. But it's like, yeah, not everything needs a needs an ending. Like, stay curious, immerse yourself in things. Try things. It

When Everything Gets Recorded

SPEAKER_00

doesn't have to be. And this also brings me to like a like another crash out that I have as far as like taking these things that we say we love, these like intimate relationships that we have with things, people, places, whatever. And now everything is being photographed and videoed and for like public consumption. Like, what happened to keeping some shit for yourself? Like, I wanted to go to a run club last weekend, right? And I couldn't go because some shit came up and I was like, I can't go. But after, like, I guess it was like the afternoon, I log on to Instagram and I'm seeing these people like videotaping the whole, I just said videotaping. That's like really old, but like video record, video recording the whole run club. And I'm like, thank God I wasn't there because I'll be there huffing, puffing now on your social media. Like, I came here to feel safe. I came here, it's a black women's like run club. I want to be safe, I want to be held, I want to feel vulnerable. I haven't run in like six years because I had a knee injury, and now I'm gonna be out here on your on your Instagram. Like, what happened to just being able to show up as yourself? Like we were kind of saying before, and not feeling like I have to have all my shit together so I can go. I just want to go.

SPEAKER_01

I feel that so heavily in so many ways. And the first way I'll say is someone who is like an avid gym rat, I don't want to be on your TikTok in the background of your tripod. Like yesterday, I was on the treadmill and some girl was like taking. And I was like, it's just gonna be my butt jiggling in the background of your video of your butt. Like now our butts are combined in partnership, but I didn't want to be in partnership with you and your butt. I just wanted to do my little silly little incline walk and go home. But like we I've actually had this conversation, I think, on the past two of these chats where we talked about how like now you go to a concert and everyone's just like, I mean, are you watching the concert or are you bragging to your friends on Snapchat that you're at the concert?

SPEAKER_00

Stop. Stop. Like it's all bad. It's all bad. It's all bad, especially at the gym. Because yeah, I go to the gym and it's like I'm five foot ten. So if I walk past your thing, I'm gonna beat in your video. Like, you're gonna see me. I'm bald. So like everybody's gonna know. Like, if we live in the same city, oh, there goes that bother of Vanessa, like, yes, me, hey, like shit. Like, I just don't, I just don't want to do it. And I feel like that has also stripped like community connection, authenticity, because people are just not able to show up. And that's the same thing for like a lot of these wellness events. Like, you are not well if you feel like you need to video record everything. And I understand the need for video to maybe like support things like funding, some like grantor, like some grants they require like video and like impact statements if you're a nonprofit and things of that nature. So I get the value in having like media for certain things, but it's like not everything needs a photo shoot. Like, what happened to just existing? Like, what happened to that? And so there's so many different facets there that are problematic for me in my life.

SPEAKER_01

Well, I think the amount of the amount of times I have tell people on the internet who post something on threads and they're like, is it appropriate to wear a self? Why are you photographing strangers? Actually, the only weird behavior is that you have a picture of a stranger's butt cheeks on your phone. You're weird. Like, get a so weird. And I do not understand, but I think we are like a little bit lost in the sauce night.

Consumption Culture And Creative Legacy

SPEAKER_01

Something that I've really realized over the last year is we all work and work and work and work to make more money. So we can go on trips and do this thing. But then I don't think anyone's talking about the fact that you're taking these trips to put it on Instagram and you're never looking up from your phone, you're on your email. So essentially, you were taking these trips to tell other people that you went on these trips while you are not experiencing the trip at all. And so, what is the point of building this big, beautiful life if you never get to touch it, everyone else gets gets to consume it?

SPEAKER_00

And that's the that's a big that that word in itself, like consumption, is something I have been thinking about so much lately, even as like an artist, as a writer, because even outside of like the things that I do in my business, which is like a lot of technical writing and things of that nature, it's like I'm a big creative writer. And so I've been thinking about even my own work and how I so freely just like give to the internet when it comes to like my creative thoughts and like my poetry and all of these things. And I'm like, it's all just here for consumption. And when we think about like the greats as far as like writing is concerned, right? Like, I think of like Tony Morrison, I think of like Bell Hooks, I think of Nikki Giovanni, all of these like great, beautiful, like black authors and creatives. We were not consuming their things at such high levels. Like it's just always for us, like for me anyway, it's putting it out, putting it out, putting it out, putting it out. There's not even like any anticipation behind it. Like, so it's it's it's just there's more consumption, I feel like, than there is actual like appreciation for things. So that just yeah, kind of goes to these trips as well, to where it's like we're you are on these trips, you are doing all of these things, but are you appreciating your time or are you doing it for like the purpose of consumption by other people and yourself? Like you want to witness your own vacation through a photo, and I can understand like documenting your trip and documenting experiences, especially as somebody who preaches like legacy and archiving and generational wealth in non-traditional ways, because those are photos and video, they are all part of those systems and like those preserving methods, right? But when you're just taking this shit and putting it on the internet for consumption, like what does that say about what you're like leaving here and what you're doing in the first place and the reasons behind it?

SPEAKER_01

So, well, I think even so we were on a trip last week and we were eating breakfast or having smoothies, I don't know. And we could see a couple on the pier, and it was a girlfriend taking a picture of her partner, and it was like, I was like, how many times is this man gonna pose to take this photo? Like, take the photo. He had like 47 poses, and he had to take a shirt off, he had to get another angle. And I was like, How many poses are we going to do to ensure that you look great? But is that really what it's about? And you know, again, you you kind of said this earlier. Like, we I thought we were going in the momentum of like wanting to see real bodies and real people, and we've taken a really hard left out of that.

Body Image, Lookmaxing, And Online Cruelty

SPEAKER_01

A hard left, a hard left. Like, obviously, I could crash out all about the like skinny trending on the internet or that one girl who's on TikTok telling women to not go to the gym because it makes them fat. And the men are like, if you just want to look like her. I don't like people. Actually, don't I literally commented and I was like, sir, I'm black. I'm so good. Thank you. Like, I don't know that I promise. Like, I'm going to the gym strictly for BBL allegations. That's it. That's why I'm going. But I think so many of us want to be perceived in this like light of having no imperfections. And I think we're even seeing that. I forced myself and my partner to watch the Manosphere documentary. Um, and they talk a lot about like the concept of look max, look, looks maxing. I feel too old to say that word. But like how obsessed everyone has gotten with how they are perceived. Knowing that's not that's not what the hell do you look like in person?

SPEAKER_00

Yo, and I think we just see ourselves too often as well. Like, because we're constantly like looking into these cameras, whether it be on calls like this, which are great. I have actually like grown to really like these types of engagements, where at first I did not, but it's like we're so obsessed with like taking even like photos of ourselves, videos of ourselves, other people taking videos, always like these get ready with me, watch me do my hair, watch me do my makeup, and like we're constantly looking at ourselves. I don't think that that's healthy either. So I think like being able to look in the mirror, obviously, and like see ourselves is great, but seeing ourselves from like this angle, that angle, all the angles that all these other people are seeing, and then being exposed to that that has to have like a psychological impact. Like we're seeing ourselves way too much in the same way that we're way too accessible. So, like, there's so many different trends I feel like that come along with the internet and these things that we should be doing. Like, there's a I could talk about this shit all day.

SPEAKER_01

So, well, and especially again, like there is you can't win as a woman on the internet, right? Like, men have been told that the worst thing a woman can be is not desirable to them, which jokes on them. I hope they hate me. But that being said, it's like the first thing they go to. It doesn't matter if you're a size zero, a size 18, a size 26, there's a man on the internet who's going to tell them you're fat. And that doesn't work, he's gonna be like, You're ugly. And I'm like, I don't, why do I? That's okay.

SPEAKER_00

What? And if I'm fat, I already know I'm fat, so it's fine. Like, it's okay. Like, I already know that.

SPEAKER_01

It's okay, it's just such an interesting space for me because when I think about you know, growing up, we didn't have as much accessibility to people, and nobody like if someone saw you in real life, that is not what they're walking up to you and saying, they're not walking up to you and saying anything. But now they're not walking up to you, they're instead photographing you and putting you on threads to be like, look at this fat bitch. And that to me is like a why I don't know how we got here.

SPEAKER_00

I don't know either. It's all wild. Like I saw a guy on threads today, and he had like weights, like he had like different like it like weight brackets, right? So it was like 120 to 140, skinny bitch, 140 to 170, you're starting to get fat. And then it just like kept going up, and then it got to like 220, and like you're humongous. And I was like, Well, I'm foot, I'm like 5'10, like I said, and like 230, so I love being humongous. Like, call me, like it's all crazy, like it's all crazy. So that's funny.

SPEAKER_01

I saw the same thing and it started at 80 pounds, and I was like, Oh, it might have been the same shit.

SPEAKER_00

I don't know.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Like, I just it is such an interesting world in a in a way that we have essentially made people yelpable. Everyone gets a grade, everyone has value that is simply based on how they look and how they are perceived, but how we look and how we are perceived essentially through the eyes of like the Eurocentric beauty standard. And so I think that's really interesting as a black creator, especially I'm not a skinny black creator, like I got a whole lot of ass. And that's essential, like it's on purpose, and I used to struggle with that a lot. Like, I used to think I really wanted to be skinny because that's what we were saying in 2004, but I guess for you, how have you navigated having the negative parts of the internet also have access to your very beautiful content?

Boundaries, Hate, And Parasocial Weirdness

SPEAKER_00

So, you know what? And like people are often surprised when I talk about this. I don't get negative engagement on the internet. Like, I think I went like viral once because someone's called me like Dollar Tree Amber Rose, and but like, okay, cool, like whatever. But like, I don't get hater messages, I don't get hater comments, nothing because, and I also think it's this because I it's only been as of recently that I've like started to go on the internet and just like be a hater and like talk about the shit that I'm talking, like when I say like be a hater, I mean like be a hater. So like this morning I made a post about AI and like all the shit that I just talked about. And it's like I don't often share opinions on the internet, so I think that people typically just like keep their mouth shut because they have nothing to like fight me on. But like now that I've started to like speak up on the internet, it's probably coming. But for the most part, people leave me alone. I don't get I don't get any nothing. I don't get it, I don't get anything, nothing. No, I cannot relate.

SPEAKER_01

I got dogs so hard in 2022. Someone showed up at my house. What? Yeah, I mean, and to be fair, I talk about like racial equity stuff. Um, and I'm like pretty my my hard line is you should get fired for being a racist, not only because you are a shitty person, but you're also like a risk to your organization, um, financially and legally. Right. And being a racist is not actually protected as an identity. So like you don't actually have to keep shitty people. Turns out racists don't like that take. They think it's a threat to their livelihood when in actuality, like you could just not be a racist. But I had someone show up at my house. I got so many death threats in 2023, the FBI got involved. So it is very interesting once you stupid do start getting the butt even on LinkedIn. Like, I get called, I mean, not as much anymore, but I used to get called fat on LinkedIn all the time. And I was like, okay, cool. I'm not trying to date you.

SPEAKER_00

Like now I'm gonna call your boss. What the fuck? Like, do you have a job? Like, that's what I love.

SPEAKER_01

I love sending a screenshot, let me tell you.

SPEAKER_00

And I'm gonna call your job. I'm calling, and this is why, then this is and these are the reasons why. So I will share thoughts about like racial equity and like things of that nature, but thankfully I have still not got it. But when it comes to like shit like that, it's like I'm so fast, like I will just blow up everybody's shit. So that's why I also like tread lightly because once I start going, it will take a lot to like pull me back and I'll just be on the internet all day. I won't know how to get out of it. Like, I I I can't, like, I'll just fight everyone.

SPEAKER_01

So I've learned I've learned to stop reading all of the comments. That's something I definitely have to do for myself. Um, I will drag someone when the moment requires it. Yeah, um, especially if your boss is like Yeah, I'm going to your job.

SPEAKER_00

Like, I'm gonna go there. Like, I'm gonna show up like with a printout. No, I'm actually serious because that's how I operate. Like, I will go to that level. Like, there's no in-between Vanessa, it's very like all the way over here or all the way over here. And there might be some people on the LinkedIn right now that are like from my audience that know me, like in the workplace. And this is why I don't have a job because like I will, it's either over here or over here, and it's just best for me to work for myself. Like, no.

SPEAKER_01

So I think one of the things, and I I'm bringing this up for a specific reason because I have a comment here that I'm gonna bring to the stage that I actually I think is a little while, but maybe it's not. I don't know. When you have an online following, like someone in here made a comment, yeah, yeah. The parasocial relationship thing is really interesting to me, right? It's like because people think they know your whole life. When in actual like you're sharing little bits and pieces, I share all of it. I definitely don't share, I share some, but I don't share all of it, right? Because like some of it is mine, like some of it is just like precious and mine, and I don't want to share it with the world. I say that because the question we got, which came from Twitch, which is really odd because I I don't I don't even know if I have a follower on Twitch. Would she ever live stream going on a date if her followers send a Cash App or start a Patreon for content, or should that be private? Which is such an interesting question to be on. Are we on Twitch? Where are we? Where are we streaming? Am I already? That came from Twitch. I do it because it it saves the download. Okay, but I don't have a single follower on Twitch, so would she ever live stream?

SPEAKER_00

So, like, what's the question? Like, who are they asking?

SPEAKER_01

You not me, I don't think.

SPEAKER_00

Oh shit. It's not me. I would never. I and I have a man, so like I wouldn't. Like, I wouldn't live stream a date. No, not unless it was like a joke. But even if it was a joke, like I would just be laughing. Like, I can take that shit seriously. I couldn't, I couldn't. And this is the thing to where, like, as somebody who has like an active online community, it's like I've been contacted even by like brands to like do content and like shoot stuff and all of this shit. And it's like, I can't even do that for like $10,000. I don't want to do it. So it's like to do things like that, like the get ready with me's and like all of the, I don't want to do that. Like if I won't do that, I don't want to do that. Like, I don't want to take a video anywhere. Like, that's how I feel.

Artist Versus Content Creator Labels

SPEAKER_01

Well, so one of your crash-outs that you had listed to me was like getting called a content creator versus a cre like an artist. And I think that's a really interesting thing because all of us get put in this box. I wish I had a dollar for every time someone calls me a thought leader. Least favorite phrase, unless we're talking about the one woman on LinkedIn who has a thought leader brand, but it's thought like T H O T. I'm glad I can get behind it thoroughly. But talk to me a little bit about that for you and how that feels when someone refers to you as a content creator rather than an artist or a writer.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, that's the stuff that really makes my mind go in spirals. And I understand that it's not ill-intentioned. So, like that's something that I keep like reminding myself. It's oftentimes like people just don't have the language for anything that they see online. So it's like they just put everybody into the same category to where it's like, you're an influencer, you're a content creator. And I'm like, I pray that like the things that I push out are influencing the lives of people because the things that I share really are like heartfelt. They're things that I have moved through, like lessons, learnings, all of these things. So influencer doesn't sit well in me, but I I get it. But like content creator makes me spiral because to me, in my world, and again, this is just like my perception, like the things that I push out, they are it's it's it's art to me. It's like it's creative writing, it's it's and I can understand like on LinkedIn, it's more so like content creation, I guess, to a degree. Because I'm not like pushing out creativity as much on LinkedIn. But when I think about places like Substack, when I'm thinking about Instagram, which is like my most like loaded platform, I get like a little upset because I spend so much time on this. Like this comes from like my heart. This is not just a matter of like waking up and saying, I'm gonna make some content today. Like I'm giving pieces of my soul. And I know that sounds really corny, but it's it's if you read the things that I write about, and you if you understand my journey, which I understand like a lot of people don't, but like what this journey has meant to me is so much bigger than just an internet situation. This has been like a life development. This has been like survival and passion and community and connection. Like I have transformed as a woman because of this journey that I have been on that involves like creativity and my writing. So when I think content creator, I think very surface. And that's not to take anything away from anybody else, but it's like this to me is so as much as it's community, it's it's very personal. So I don't I don't like it.

O2 Be Tender And What Tender Means

SPEAKER_01

So tell us a little bit about your book.

SPEAKER_00

Okay. So my book, and this, yeah, this book, it's the first book that I have written for myself. It's a short compilation of different poems and personal reflections, affirmations, things of that nature. And I am in the process of writing like a big book, like a much more like thorough book. And in the interim, I was like, hey, people are always asking me, like, when are you gonna put about a book? When are you gonna put out a book? And I'm like, I'm working on it, but like I don't work well under pressure, so like stop asking me. And then I was like, you know what? I was in Seattle, I was like, I should not Seattle, I was in Denver, and I was like, there, I was out in the woods, and I said to my boyfriend at the time, I was like, yo, I need to write a book. I'm gonna go home and just write a book. And he's like, Okay. So yeah, I went home, wrote like it's 86 pages, so it's not that big. Yeah, I wrote the book, put it out, and it's from my heart. It's dedicated to my niece and all of my friends that I have selectively chosen in this lifetime and who have chosen me. And yeah, it's it's a cute little, it's a cute little read. What's the name of it? Oh, yeah, it's called O2 Be Tender, and O2 Be Tender came out of my love for D'Angelo. So when D'Angelo had passed, I wanted to do something, but didn't want to make it into like a content creation experience or like something that was rooted in getting money from people to support D'Angelo or whatever. So I ended up creating this like online forum for people to come and write and listen to D'Angelo and share and all. These things and that event was called Oh to be tender. It was initially supposed to be one event, but it turned into five separate events. And then because like my book kind of came in the line with that series, those series of events, I was like, Yeah, I'm gonna call it O2Bender because the passing of D'Angelo is also what kind of inspired this book to where I was thinking a lot about legacy and what I want to leave behind. And I think for me, a lot of what I want to leave behind and what I hope the world remembers of me, like after my time is gone, is very much like through my words and the work that I have done around nurturing spaces, whether that be through books or verbal, like speaking, whatever. I've just like nurtured places for people to feel seen. And so that's where that book kind of came from.

SPEAKER_01

So for you, what does the word tender mean to you?

SPEAKER_00

To me, tender, it just means like, okay, this is a way because I'm like a visual person, right? So I just think of like a stick of butter just in my hand and it's just melting. Like, so in like the physical, like personified version of tender, it would it's more so just like for me, a place where I can ease in and like relax and like relinquish, like relinquish control, relinquish independence, just like exist and like be loved on by whether that be like a partner, friends, family, just like a space that feels safe and vulnerable in the best ways, and just places where I feel held and just places and people that just don't ask much of me, but just allow me to exist. So to me, that's that's like what tender tenderism is.

SPEAKER_01

Do you think most people are good at embracing that part of life?

SPEAKER_00

No, because I think it's a privilege to be able to do so, especially in this day and age in 2026, to be able to be tender is it shouldn't be, but it is a privilege given all of the things that are going on, given like your race, given your ethnicity, given your culture, given where you live, given your economic status, like it's a privilege to be able to be tender. And so with that, it's there are very select pockets that I'm even able to be tender in at this point. And so I don't think a lot of us are good at it because a lot of us just don't have the experience of being able to be tender. Like a lot of folks don't know what that is, and if I'm being so honest, I live in like a tender world in my head, and like that's where like a lot of these like pieces of writing come from. So it's like I ideas, it's it's dreams, it's fantasies, because like my world, as much as I would love for it to be a tender place, it's not, it's it's really not. So yeah, I don't I don't even know if I'm good at it, to be honest.

SPEAKER_01

Well, I think one of the things that has always drawn me to your writing, right? Is that you are incredibly vulnerable. And that is not an easy thing to do. And I think a lot of people, especially people with a platform, actually run from that. They run from vulnerability because maybe it feels weak or it doesn't feel relatable to them. And so I guess when you think about that, what would you tell someone who is trying to really get into being able to write creatively, maybe in a public forum, about that

Writing Vulnerably Without Oversharing

SPEAKER_01

specifically? Because I think that plays into like we're reading a lot of empty content because nobody's being real.

SPEAKER_00

I think if I had to give like someone advice about like being vulnerable with like writing on the internet in like ways that are authentic, it's like it's so much easier said than done. And like I know this, so I feel like anything I say is gonna sound kind of cliche, but it's like you have to do it for you. Like that that is where it starts. And like, I don't even necessarily think that being vulnerable on the internet is like the first place to start. I think like the first place to start is being able to be offline and being able to be vulnerable with yourself. You need to be offline and know what it is to sit with yourself and your emotions. You need to be offline to like write and dig and dive to see then what do I want to publicize? Because you also don't want to jump on the internet either and like hash out your whole life. Like, you don't want to be putting journals on the internet. Like, if I was to put my journals on the internet, like I don't know, it would be a lot going on. So it's like I think the first piece of advice that I would have would be to get vulnerable with yourself offline, and then when you become comfortable with that, think about like these are the things I think about. So, like, what are some things that I might have been moving through lately or just in my life that I can give people with like the right amount of like insight without sharing too much, and like there's a balance there, and I think that that's often what people say to me like you share with the internet, like you share these like lessons and these learnings, but you don't really like divulge your whole life. How do you do that? And like for me, I'm a super introspective person, and that comes from sitting by myself and like understanding what I've been through, what I want to share, how I can share it. I was also a social worker for 20 years, and so I have a very good, I think, like handle on being able to articulate emotion and like articulate lessons without giving it all away. So, yeah, sit with yourself. That's that's the first thing to do, I think. And and do what take like baby steps, like stick your toe in the water, see how that feels. If that feels good, keep doing that for a while and then like evolve, you know, and just do what feels comfortable. Catch me making a video on the internet talking about my life, like I'm not doing that, but I will write, and that's what I'll do.

SPEAKER_01

So, yeah.

Rejecting The Internet Shoulds

SPEAKER_01

So, one of the things you would say to me when we first talked, or like on the internet, was that you're like one you should away from becoming deeply unserious. And I guess for you, like, how do you navigate people saying how you should be and setting that boundary? Because I think that's one of the other things, right? Like, when I first wrote my book, when my first my book first came out, I was like just hard launching a partner at the time. Someone's like, You shouldn't be dating, you should be out selling your book. And I was like, Okay, thank, thank you. Then I had set the boundaries like you don't people don't get to tell me how to live my life. No, no, no, but how do you go about setting that boundary with people?

SPEAKER_00

As far as like the shoulds, and like this is what you're doing. Anyone who knows me in my life, like personally, knows that I have always been a person, like down to when I was a kid, like my grandmother will still tell everybody like you can't tell Vanessa like what to do, like there's no shoulds. Like, Vanessa does what Vanessa wants to do, and it has been it's like a bittersweet situation because I will do what I think I will sometimes like listen to the shoulds if I trust you. And so, like, it's all like relationship dependent, but it's also how it's framed because if you're coming to me with a should, my first like instinct habitually is to be like, no, like I don't, I don't do that. Like, I don't, I don't do that. So I don't know if there's been like a process with the shoulds because I've just always been this, I've always just been this person, really. Yeah, yeah, I don't, I don't know. And like I feel like every time you log on to the internet or I log on to the internet, it's like you should be doing this, you should be eating all this protein, you should be going to bed at this time, you should be, I don't know, doing shrooms and taking meth. Like, there's all these things that we should be doing. And so for me to move through my life in the smoothest way possible, I need to do what I know works for me. And I've spent a lot of time figuring out what that is, especially as somebody, again, who's like severely neurolike neurodivergent. Like, I know what works for me already. I have the patterns, I have the systems, I have the things that work well. If you want me to deviate from these things, you better give me a really good reason to deviate or to do the thing that you think I should be doing. So I don't trust a lot of people. That's another thing, too. So, like if you tell me what I should be doing, 99% of the time I don't trust you. So kick rocks. Like, I don't, I don't believe you. Like, leave me alone.

SPEAKER_01

Well, that's funny. I had someone who emailed me and LinkedIn and they were like, oh my god, I love you so much. But and I was like, Oh no. And they're like, you should hire an editor for your newsletter, mind you. My newsletter is free, so I'm not paying, whatever. But I don't like, I don't like an Oxford comma. We can I'm I'll die on my hills just on my favor. And she was like, You basically basically she's like, You look stupid because you don't use the Oxford comma and you need an editor. And I was like, You shouldn't have wasted an in mail on me. I will tell you what you should, you should have done. It's not not message for me. And I just think it's really interesting. Again, that people feel like they have, once you have like a platform, they feel like they know you in person. I'm like, we're not friends. I will still say that to my face.

SPEAKER_00

You wouldn't come to me and say that. I promise you wouldn't come to my face and say that. So that's where I will like literally crash out. Like, this is why I'm like, I hope I give people, I hope I give off the like don't message me vibe because I love to chat. Like, don't get me wrong, like I'll talk about the birds and the bees and the things. Like, I'm I love connecting with people, but I hope I give the don't come to me with that shit because that that's where that's where I'll that's where I'm running. Like, and that's yeah, that's just like not gonna go for me. Because who told you to subscribe to my email? Like, who said if you don't like it, you can just click unsubscribe and you never have to see it again. I think that's crazy.

SPEAKER_01

I had someone who responded to my newsletter that they subscribe to you, and they're like, if you don't take me off this newsletter, I'm gonna take legal action. I was like, there is an unsubscribe button, but how did you get here? No, how did you get here?

SPEAKER_00

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I think that's all wild.

Conferences That Demand Free Labor

SPEAKER_01

No, I think. So the last one of the last things that you mentioned, because I want to be your spectrum, but it's a topic that I will also crash out about is the concept of people hosting conferences for people who hold marginalized identity and identities and then not wanting to pay them. I'll also crash out on conferences for marginalized identities and then having speakers who do not fit into that identity at all and actually hold power over that identity because why are you here? But I would love to talk a little bit about that because I think that is really commonplace in even just industry-wise, right? Like HR conferences do not pay HR people, despite the fact that you're like using my brain to get people to buy tickets to your event. But specifically, like when we think about like black focused conferences, queer focused conferences, neurodivergent focused conferences, they want you to come build their brand for your emotional labor as cost, and then they also want you to do it for free.

SPEAKER_00

This is like enough to make me want to put my head through a wall. Let me tell you. Okay, so I had been speaking my whole career, like coming from social services and education, whatever, right? And so when I became an entrepreneur, I was like, you know, I don't really ever want to speak again. So I'm just gonna write for a living and just like mind my own business. But I had met a woman back in like 2023. It must have been 2024, maybe 2023, 2024, whatever. And so she works at Salesforce in Dallas, like such a beautiful, like spirit, great woman, whatever. And she put the she put like the bug in my ear. So he's like, yo, Vanessa, like you need to start speaking. You should start like going to these conferences. Like, I work with Salesforce, so like we should like tour and go on like a like a tour for the whole year, pretty much. So we spent a lot of that year going to conferences, and a lot of the conferences were like in the tech sector. A lot of them were like geared towards black folks and like black folks in tech, which I like really appreciate and respect, especially, you know, going in and being able to chat with folks about how to develop like their career skills and their documents and all of these things. But I'm out here spending all this money, because again, I'm from Canada and I'm going all over the US, like spending money flights, hotel, food, whatever for free. None of these people paid. None, zero. And so while I was never asked to pay to be in the conferences, fast forward now to this year, and a few folks have asked me, like for my network, to go and speak at these conferences, they'll send me the links to the to the thing. And now I'm finding out that the conferences that they're asking me to be a part of, they want you to pay to go speak at the conference. And I'm wondering how the hell that makes sense because a lot of the conferences that are forwarded to me are conferences for black folks and not even just in the tech sector anymore. These are for like education, social work, the music industry, like all types of different things because my skill set is so vast. But all of these places want you to pay, they want you to pay to submit the application to speak. Then they want you to pay to go to the conference to register for the conference. And those are like two, it's like I saw one for like 300 US, which in Canadian is almost $500 to go speak, create all the materials, have tangible materials to hand out. Then I'm supposed to pay for hotel, food, flights, all of these things. So basically, I'm gonna spend $2,500 to $3,000 to go speak at your conference for you to use my materials and just like what? And then your whole conference is surrounding like equitable experiences and like accessible experiences, and we want to bring the black folks out and we want the black speakers to come, especially a black Canadian. That's great. We love it. No, you're not gonna pay me. That's crazy. That's all sick. It's all sick and crazy to me. And so I really have a big problem with I have a big problem with it. I have a big problem with it.

SPEAKER_01

It's not right. I have gotten a lot of emails lately about like, do you want a penny to speak? No, I literally tell people all the time if you're going to ask me if I'm going to be somewhere, I am not, you are never going to see me anywhere unless I'm getting paid. I am not at a conference on my own dollar, I'm not there for free. If I am there, you can absolutely guarantee that a check clear. And I don't think people quite understand that. Because again, people assume that exposure pays the bills. Like, even this past week, I had someone who asked me to be in like their little online speaking series for free. And I agreed. Um, and I was like, but I'm on vacation for the next week, and so I can't fill anything out until I'm back. When I came back, I came home to a flat tire and I had a photo shoot for the whole day, so I didn't even think about it. And she messaged me and was like, I'm removing you from the thing because you weren't. And I was like, okay, cool, release me. Like, release me. Because again, I do this for free. I cannot prioritize free shit when I have like life going on. You weren't doing me a favor by platforming me. I platformed myself. Thank you. I don't need yours. And I think people forget that, like, exposure, I cannot use exposure to pay my mortgage.

SPEAKER_00

And this is it. And this happened to me during Black History Month. This woman hit me up. She goes, Hey, I run an online community for black women internationally. They like, she no, she didn't say that they pay. She's like, But will you come and speak for free? 90 minutes, workshop, QA, all of these things. And so I said, Hold on a second. So I go to her website, and then I find out what she's charging people to be in this community circle. She's charging them $300 a month, $300 US. And you say that you have all these women in the circle, right? That are paying to be in the community and paying to access all of these like speaking engagements and these workshops or whatever. So I go back to her, I say, Hey, I'm totally down to speak. But first of all, it's Black History Month. Like, you don't like this is the worst month to ask, like, if you're black, like, what are we doing? This is that's a whole separate conversation, but wild nonetheless. And so then she says, I say to her, I see that like your members in the community pay for like these professional development experiences. So how is it that you have no money to pay me? And she's like, Well, you know, everyone who comes and speaks, like, they just do what they can for the community. That's a I'm done. Like, count me out. Count me out. I said, if you want me to speak for like 10 minutes and give like an intro and like a tip, I would be glad to do it. But I'm not coming for 90 minutes when you're banking off of these people, and now you don't you take all that bank and you can't pay me. Bye-bye. Bye. I'm done. No, it's all sick, it's all crazy. And it's it's I expect, I shouldn't say I expect, but it's like I don't expect us to do this, like to where it's like these conferences that are held and hosted by minoritized communities. Like, we need to pay each other. Like, why are we not paying each other? Like, and then you have speakers come in to talk about equitable experiences. Like, you want me to come speak about equitable experiences at your equity conference, your nothing is equitable. Like, so I don't, I don't know. And and some of the justifications that I have received from people, especially when it comes to the conferences, are oh, well, people's workplaces pay for them to come. And so we have to generate money somehow. I'm like, but I'm not a workplace, like, I don't have an employer to send me to the conference and pay the $300 for me to speak. And even if I did, even if I was employed somewhere, like somebody's paying me to do something because this is all wild.

SPEAKER_01

So well, and again, like I get it, right? Like, I'm happy to educate people because I have a good brain, but I do myself and my community disservice if I tell you that my IP is free. I had someone a long time ago who told me every time I undercharge, I set up another black woman to be underpaid. And I was like, Oh, I'm just gonna charge a bag from right alone. But yeah, this this conference thing, it very much feels like the biggest MLM scheme on the planet. It is that it's not just a giant grift.

SPEAKER_00

Like it has to be. And the conferences aren't even good. Like, I'm not even getting any value from them. Like, I'm not like the food isn't good, nothing's good, the partner hotels are not good. So it's like what I like to do what I can for the community, for my community, for the people, but it also has to, it has to make sense, like literally, figuratively, like all the ways. It just needs to make sense for me. And exposure, like you said, doesn't pay the bills. Like, I might meet somebody at the conference that is great, and maybe they'll be a client, maybe they'll be a friend, and like there's cool, like all of those things are cool and they are of value, but at the end of the day, I'm an entrepreneur, like, I don't have nine to five money like that. So anything I do is a risk. Like, it is like what is the return on the investment? Like, I can't be ass out $3,500, go to a conference, and I'm leaving like crickets, like and and two LinkedIn requests. Like, and one could argue, well, you just need to go and like sell yourself and all of these things, and that's the shit that's like pushy and stupid, and I don't want to be a part of it.

SPEAKER_01

So $3,500, I'd rather be somewhere with my ass out in the sun, not at your conference than pants. No, thank you.

SPEAKER_00

Please put me on the beach, take me out. I'm not, no, it's all

Final Takeaway And Where To Find Her

SPEAKER_00

bad.

SPEAKER_01

It's just all so I know we are at time and I want to be respectful of your time. Is there anything if anyone leaves with any nugget of anything from you today? Is there anything specific that you want people to take from this conversation?

SPEAKER_00

Just be you, just show up, just show up as yourself. Like, I know again that it's easier said than done, but like really think about the things that you want to leave the people with, with your like, who do you want to leave the things for? What do you want the world to say about you? And like, I think a lot of that comes down to just being authentic. And I think that a lot of us, myself included, at times, are focused on being consumable and like being digestible and being all of these things that we should be, but like being you is also like good, it's also good enough, it's also fine.

SPEAKER_01

So yeah, and okay, so people want to work with you to build legacy, to build their business. Where can they find you? How can they book you? How can they stay in touch with you?

SPEAKER_00

So you can find me on Vanessa Smithers.com. That's probably the best place, business-wise. If you want to learn more about my creative practices, everything is there. There are links to book calls and emails to see like an overview of what I do. If you want to create with me, but also want to see a little bit of what I have to offer and just like the more creative side of my work, you can go to Instagram. And my username on there is Love Vanessa Smithers. And I'm on LinkedIn, which I think we're streaming on right now, is Vanessa Smithers. And yeah, I like to work with people as people and as themselves. And what you're getting here is what you would more than likely get like while working with me. Yeah, it's been it's been great.

SPEAKER_01

Well, we love that. If you're listening to this on the podcast version, you can find all of those links linked below in the big block of text. If you joined us today, thanks for hanging out. Thanks for crashing out. Vanessa, thank you for crashing out with me. This was like the best way to end my Friday. And I will link all of your things in the comment section of this live. So buy her book, obviously. I would love to give someone who commented a book. So maybe I'll message you for a free book. We'll see if you've commented. But again, happy Friday, everyone. Thanks for crashing out. I'll see you next time. And I hope you don't crash out this weekend. But if you do, I hope it's a good one. Bye, y'all. Bye.