Crash Out With Me: Privilege Is the Most Protected Class

DEI doesn’t fail because people “don’t get it.” It fails because the people with power won’t share it. Maddie B sits down with award-winning learning development and global talent management pro Jasmine Mosley Beale, founder of Virtue Key Consulting Group, to name what a lot of workplaces avoid saying out loud: diversity, equity, and inclusion without authority, budget, and decision rights is just PR.

We talk about the difference between looking diverse and being equitable, why headline diversity numbers can hide a leadership gap, and why attrition tells the truth when culture doesn’t. Jasmine breaks down what to examine beyond the org chart, including who drives strategy, who executes it, and how the “mighty middle” can either reinforce bias or move real change. We also dig into employee resource groups, sponsorship versus mentorship, and why so many DEI roles burn out when they’re set up with titles but no leverage.

Then we go where most conversations stop: performative allyship, proximity-as-credibility, getting lowballed for expertise, and the exhausting expectation that marginalized people must overperform while accepting the bare minimum. If you’re building a DEI strategy, leading HR or talent management, or interviewing a company and trying to spot the red flags early, you’ll leave with concrete questions to ask and a clearer lens for what workplace inclusion actually requires.

Subscribe for more real workplace conversations, share this with a leader who needs to hear it, and leave a review with the one change you want to see at work next.

Follow Jasmine: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jasmine-m-beal-2190b327/

work with Jasmine: www.virtuekey.com

Transcript

Welcome And Meet Jasmine

SPEAKER_00 0:02

And we're live. Hello, everyone. Welcome back to the Crash Out. If you don't know me, my name is Madison Maddie B. If you know me, and the reason I created Crash Out with me was because I recognize that everyone has stuff going on, and everyone around you is crashing out about something, especially in the lovely year of 2026. I am super excited about my guest today. We are going to crash out about one of my favorite topics. But would you like to introduce yourself?

SPEAKER_01 0:28

I sure will. What's up, Maddie? Hi, everyone. My name is Jasmine Mosley Beale. I'm an award-winning learning development and global talent management professional, and I own Virtue Key Consulting Group, where we change chaos into clarity through transformational efforts and performance management, talent management, and leadership development. I am based in Richmond, Virginia, and I operate globally, but also too, I always like to do the professional stuff, but I like to do some cool stuff as well. So I was born in Hampton, Virginia, raised in Newport News. So all the people from the 757, hello, what's up? And fun facts about me. I'm a mom. I am a wife. And also, too, I mean, I love fashion, all the cool stuff, but I'm an avid gamer. So I'm a Resident Evil fan, played since it came out in '96. And also am an Assassin's Creed fan, too. So a lot of people get shocked when I say that. So no wonder I'm big into strategy and all things that involve strategy.

SPEAKER_00 1:30

I love that. And I feel like all my favorite people are from Virginia. Hibbett's from Virginia, Sarika's from Virginia, also both in HR, both women of color. Okay. Maybe, maybe I'm living in the wrong part of the East Coast. It's something in the water over here, you know. I don't know. But what do you want to crash out about today?

SPEAKER_01 1:49

Yeah, so the topic that we all want to crash about, because I mean I'm going to crash out about this too. It's about D E and I. And you might have seen the title, but D E and I without power, without intention, it's just PR. And I am so excited to get into this topic because that's something that's probably been on our mind for years. And I mean, more so now in 2026, with all the things that are going on within the United States. So yeah, I'm ready for it.

SPEAKER_00 2:16

Yeah,

When Racism Shows Up Nearby

SPEAKER_00 2:17

speaking of, so I'm on the East Coast, and this has nothing to do with the topic at hand, but a little bit. So I'm on the East Coast, and I think there's this perceived notion that if you live in a blue state or a blue city, like everything is good, everything is peachy. Well, I live in a very quaint New England town, and in the town over from me, two nights ago, someone was walking around in a KKK hood. No, like, what? Oh my god. And I wish that was the biggest problem I had because whatever, one person, an individual is an individual. My issue actually is that everyone in the comments is like, I don't, what's the problem? That's his that's freedom of speech. He's not breaking the law. Why is this news? Oh my goodness. And it's it's such an interesting topic in the way that it intersects with this. Because how can you truly do this work, right? When it's deeply personal. So you can do all the DEI work in your organization that you want, but if these are the same people that come to work in your organization, how can you actually move anything forward?

SPEAKER_01 3:13

Exactly. It's like when people want to say that racism and all the other isms aren't real. And I mean, what you experienced not too long ago, it's like, no, this is definitely real. And, you know, I just think about the trauma too that ensues. I mean, someone walking down the street, somebody is traumatized, including me who was not there.

SPEAKER_00 3:36

A hundred percent. And I mean, even further than that, like I think there's this notion that you can come to work, right? And be a different human. But the thing is, racism doesn't get tracked at the door. You don't get to be like, okay, well, I'm gonna fold that little jacket up and pick it back up at five. I'm not gonna be a racist at work, but like at the grocery store, fine. On the internet, fine. I think that's why people take such issue with me when I say, like, if you get wild on my LinkedIn posts, I'm happy to let your employer know. Because all that tells me is if you are unsafe for me, a random stranger on the internet, what does that say about the people who have to work with you day in and day out?

SPEAKER_01 4:12

Yeah, absolutely too. It's just like, you know, everybody talks about their whole selves, right? And doing that is detrimental, it's problematic. We want to be able to go to work. We want to be able to thrive, not just survive work. And, you know, thinking about this topic too, and when we're setting all of this up, you know, I had to really do some deep work before going on this podcast because there's so much internal work before we get into the work stuff, just things that I've personally gone through, other people color, women of color have gone through as well. And when I think about it, I'm like, yeah, in my own personal life, you know, dealing with racism at an early age, dealing with tokenism, dealing also not only with racism, colorism, being a dark-skinned black woman, and thinking about in terms of the ways of the world in that way, how we're portrayed in media, like being the best friend, and how that translates to within work as well. So those things that people say is not a big deal. It really is a big deal, and especially for the trajectory of our lives and also to our livelihood for our families as well.

SPEAKER_00 5:22

A hundred percent. It's really interesting. So I had someone, so I have like a couple of frequent flyers on my page, and I have one frequent flyer who he actually argues all the time in my in my comments that racism and being a racist is no different than being black. And every day I like want to yeet my computer right out the window, right? Because I always have this, I have this, you know, concept I talk about is like I don't get the option of being black, right? Like I wake up every morning, I am black, but I do get to wake up and decide am I a kind person and am I an open-minded person? Am I loving? Am I compassionate? Am I an asshole? And I feel very similarly, like as a fully formed, fully frontal lobed adult, you get to choose do I wake up and cause harm, or do I wake up and choose to be better? And he is convinced that that is not a thing that adults get to choose. You just are that thing. And I am being I don't know what the word would be, being racist. Oh, I'm being biased towards racists when I talk about them. And I'm like, well, yeah, actually.

SPEAKER_01 6:21

I could flip it and reverse it. Like he was just like, I am biased against racists, actually. Now that you say it, you're right. Like, okay, no, like I'm gonna be the victim now, even though I am incredibly, incredibly wrong here. You know, and you mentioned that too. And I was thinking about a time that a few times has happened, twice in a year and a half, where I was in a work setting in a meeting, and it was like an MA meeting, and I had a leader, white male leader, try to compare him being growing up poor and white is the same as me being black, no matter what socioeconomic status I was. And I just turned my head, I'm like, interesting. I'm just like, you know, it's not the same. And the reason why you brought it up was because you know it's not the same, but you're trying to make it like, oh, like everything I did. No one's saying you didn't work hard, but you know, everybody navigates life a little bit differently. And one of those things, too, and I purposely do this too when I do any type of DEI work because DEI talent and performance also that collides together whether anybody likes it or not. And one of the things I do when I workshop, at any point, I said, okay, we're gonna do an activity. I said, this is nothing you need to share, you know. I mean, like just get your pen, get your paper, you know, do your thing. But I start off by saying, write down five of your closest friends, just write their names down. The next thing I do, I said, okay, are they male or female? What is their racial, ethnic background, education? And I keep going down in terms of families. Do they come from a nuclear family? And when you look at that paper and you're seeing in terms of the people who you call friends, and I'm not talking about acquaintances, like, oh, someone I met, like, oh, I know, you know, I know a black person, I know an Asian person, but they're not within your circles. You don't see them at weddings, you don't see them at christenings and things like that. That really shapes about how you move at work as well. And I'm not saying for people to go and find, you know, a friend of color or find somebody that is different in terms of sexuality or whatever that may be, but you have to realize too that your lens is different.

SPEAKER_00 8:36

So it's interesting. I actually do that same exercise, but I don't do it with friends. I do it with the people that you trust the most. So your doctor, your dentist, your accountant, the people who handle like your actual like the business operations of your life. And the outcomes are very similar as well. And I always ask, was this intentional or by design? And we get into the conversation about what happens when you only trust people who look like you. What does that teach you about trusting the outside world? Or people look different than you. And it's really funny that you bring up the example with a white male boss because I had a funny example, but backwards. He once told me I had a white male CMO chief marketing officer who told me that he was the diversity hire because he was the only rich white guy and no one knew what it was like to be him.

SPEAKER_01 9:26

Run that back. I'm the only rich person out here.

SPEAKER_00 9:30

Well, he said, I he at the time he said I'm the only one here who owns two houses. And both me and the other woman in leadership were both like, we both own two houses.

SPEAKER_01 9:39

You know what? Oh, you're you're on something right now. What made you assume that I didn't have two homes? We're gonna get into the five whys. Let's go break it down.

SPEAKER_00 9:49

And he was like, But it's different. And I was like, But but is it?

SPEAKER_01 9:54

Is it different? Oh goodness, you know, this is like mental torture because I was raised by a police officer. My mom's a retired cop. And so I go through it, like in terms of you know, seeing how people move, seeing how people, you know, react and act. And right here, I'm like, okay, let's get into it. Like, why do you think this way? So I can't believe someone said that. Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_00 10:20

You know, I feel like at this stage, I am not shocked by anything that anyone says out loud. I'm disappointed for sure, but shocked never.

The 2020 Boom And The Grift

SPEAKER_00 10:27

So I think that DEI had a really big loud moment in 2020. And as someone who was doing DEI work, long before we got to 2020, it was really interesting to watch all of these new people hop on the scene with exactly zero background, zero context, zero data, and zero lived experience hop into it because they saw what we know is a money play, right? Those are the same people now who are like working deeply in AI suddenly or suddenly trying to take down the patriarchy because they saw the news article about the 62 million. But for you, when did you start to think that maybe the way that we had framed DEI in 2020 wasn't working the way that we were supposed to think it was working?

SPEAKER_01 11:09

Yeah. So when I first and I have I hate to laugh because when I first heard about, you know, everything that happened with 2020, George Floyd, like it was devastating, right? And the mental space that I was in and others were in was just it just felt like doom and gloom. It just felt like the sky was just black every single day. And then when you were approached and asked to do this work, it's heavy work. But at the same time, it's like, is this work that all these senior leaders really want to do? Or you're just doing that to make sure that you get your bonus. Because one of the things that happens is that, okay, well, people started asking about diversity numbers. And then people are excited and they're like, hey, guess what? Our company's diverse. We have 35 to 45% diversity. And I'm sitting there, like this, you know, and say, hey, let me ask you a question here. So we need to break this down further in the org because if we're operating in places where brown and black people are prevalent, then yes, your number is going to be 35 to 40 percent. What does your L1 in terms of your C-suite look like? What does L2 look like in terms of your vice presidents and your executive directors and leaders? So that 35% is not reflected back into leadership. And we're talking about leadership that has strategic weight in the organization, strategy formulation, not just individual contributor, or I gave you a manager title, but the work that you're doing doesn't reflect it. And also the compensation part, too. How many folks in those titles from a compensation standpoint are highly compensated? And, you know, then everybody's just like, well, you know, go and backtrack and like, no, no, no, stop. This is what it is right now. And I've always had an issue with that working at global companies where we are globally diverse and most of your global diversity is within direct labor. But when it comes to leadership, everybody is white and American. And I'm like, well, let's talk about how that happened.

SPEAKER_00 13:21

Well, and I think that's it's even further than that, too. Like, so for me, I work specifically with companies that are really like series D and younger because I feel like that's where you can make the most impact. And so then I have to ask the question, okay, well, what does your board look like? Who's at the cap table? And how about this? Give show me show me your investors. Because at the end of the day, when you are beholden to what they want and what they believe, guess what? It doesn't actually matter how diverse your workforce is because there's someone else holding the strings. Right. And you know, the other thing that I think a lot of companies didn't think through because a lot of the data we got was like, here's our diversity data, right? But no one was showing us our attrition data, they weren't showing us our health data because you can be diverse as hell and then still traumatize everybody there. Oh, yeah, for sure. How do you help companies understand that in order to have healthy diversity, you have to embody inclusion?

Inclusion Means Changing Execution

SPEAKER_01 14:12

Oh, yes. So this is how I help. So anytime someone's working with me and we're talking about executing strategy, and where I think where people mess up is they get confused with strategy execution and the formulation part. So the formulation part, C-suite and the board happens to do that, but the execution is going to be the key. And so, with a lot of those execution meetings, and I've seen this over the past 15 years, where it's just the C-suite and maybe their direct reports, I'm like, this is completely wrong because you're not including the people that are going to drive the change. We're talking about mid-level managers, what I like to call the mighty middle, who are going to be a part of the conversation and who are going to be the ones that make sure we're staying in line. Also, too, when it comes to direct labor and understand the context of what's happening, this is where you include those people who are potential emerging leaders, those rising stars within your organization. That's how you bring diversity into the room. And what happens is people want to feel special. Like I'm a part of this big meeting. And then it becomes very, very filtered when okay, we want to execute out all these things. And it's like, well, what is this? I have no idea. I wasn't even invited into the room. So now I'm trying to gauge from some PowerPoint that you gave me versus when the conversations were happening live.

SPEAKER_00 15:38

Well, and so I think one of the things that a lot of organizations expected, right, was for the work to be bottom up. So companies were like, sure, we'll throw some budget at ERGs, like, go do the work and then bring it back to us. We won't approve any of it, but it makes you feel like you're busy. It makes you feel like you're moving the needle. And for me, that is almost double the harm, right? Because you've asked people to join these ERGs, which all hold a beautiful, wonderful purpose. But now you're asking people to do emotional labor for free and then doing nothing with it, right? Like you're asking to make, like I remember uh last year, maybe the year before, a ERG had brought me in to do a talk for Black History Month. And truly, before I got on stage, like 60 seconds before I got on stage, they're like legal came in and said you can't say diversity. And I was like, What? And it just makes me think that so often again, all of this is for PR. They want people to feel good and not examine what's below the surface. It's like the iceberg theory, right? They want people to be looking at what's above, but never what's below.

SPEAKER_01 16:45

Or when someone tries to tell you, can we keep the meeting light? And I said, What do you mean light? Like my life is not light. So what are you talking about when it comes to diversity, equity, inclusion? We don't want to talk about anything heavy, aka we don't want to talk about the racial disparities, the uh disparities with women within certain parts of the organization, even though it is literally in front of you. And you know, when you think about ERGs too, if executives are not sponsoring that, and I'm talking about showing up physically to those things, it becomes a committee where nothing happens because those that's a good way to see where those potential key players are at and being able to sponsor them in the room. Sponsorship is so important. When people talk about mentorship and sponsorship, I'm just listening to the Rich Lessons podcast, we are overly mentored. It's always about being criticized and oh, well, do this more, do that more. But when it comes to sponsorship and be able to test our muscles, show people in terms of what we have inside of us that helps drive the organization, our name is not being brought up in the room. And ERGs are a great way to do that, but we're not strategically leveraging them either to be able to do that as well.

SPEAKER_00 18:09

And then, even to your point, you don't end up with sponsors who look like you because there aren't any that look like you in leadership. And so they're coming to these meetings without a full understanding of the lived experience because yes, maybe they're bought in or maybe they really believe they're an ally, which we can get to later in this. But it's also why representation matters so much, because it is really hard to advocate for something that you don't understand. So I remember when I was pitching my book, that was actually, and this is going back like five years ago when I was looking for an agent. I I remember I worked with this agent, her and I really liked each other, but she came back and said, I don't feel like I can appropriately advocate for you in your book because I do not understand the lived experience because it's not mine. And I often think that people that is what happens when we have sponsors who don't have the lived experience, but how can you have a sponsor with the lived experience if you have no one in your leadership that reflects your organization right?

SPEAKER_01 19:02

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you're definitely right. And I remember bravely saying this. I was doing a leadership co-work years ago, and I said the likelihood of me being a C-suite within this organization is zero percent because of the fact there is no representation, no matter what the other percentage of diversity within the company is, it no one has seen anybody looks like me in this space. And that's tough. I mean, when you think about it, it's like one of those things where it's like, gosh, that mental battle of I'm doing the work, I'm showing up, I'm in proximity and being visible, but you have to be also careful too, because you don't want to be the person where all of your ideas and the things that drive the company just get taken away and you're sitting on the side somewhere else in a different room, and that's being interpreted without you there.

SPEAKER_00 19:57

So

CDO Titles Without Decision Power

SPEAKER_00 19:58

when we think about power in DEI, I think that was a lot of what we saw was people who did look like us were put into CDO roles, but then it had the highest turnover out of any role in the C-suite for about it had a good 18-month run that we saw the CDO role pop up. But none of those people were given any power. They were given, like, here, look, we have a black woman, here's our stock photo. She doesn't get to talk, no talking. Right. No decision making, but she does sit here with us. And how do you think that was actually detrimental to DEI's movement forward?

SPEAKER_01 20:33

Yeah, I think that's detrimental because when you're placed in a position where you don't have the advocacy, right? Where you can lead in the way that you need to lead, then it's like, at least for me, Maddie, just you know, correct me. But to me, it was like, oh, you're trying to prove yourself right. Like, oh no, well, you you can't do the role because of this, but I'm under-resourced. I am not being advocated for at the same time. It's like you're trying to use this as an excuse for me not to be in the space. And when I think about black leaders, especially CEOs that were in positions, it was like when the company was already messed up and down, and then the blame comes on them in terms of, well, this didn't happen, this didn't turn over in this amount of time. And it's like, really? Come on. It was tough. It was really tough to see that for sure.

SPEAKER_00 21:25

I was on a live with HIBA a couple of weeks ago, and I think she made a really fair point was especially as women of color in C-suite roles, we are always expected to do more with less. And she made a great point that was like, I now do less with less, because you wouldn't ask a white man to perform this with less resources. You would give him exactly what he needs. And now I'm going to either get exactly what I need or I'm going to do less. And I feel like, especially for people in those CDO roles, they were being asked to shift the entire world around with no resources, no ability to have a voice, and exactly zero power. Because again, we all know that decisions really look like CEOs and CFOs most of the time. And maybe sometimes your board gets involved.

SPEAKER_01 22:10

Right, for sure. It is like being under resourced. It's like now I'm getting triggered because that was my entire career. It's like, here, here's a thing, there was nothing there. And you're just like picking and prodding to figure out, okay, what can I do? But I'm always known to make something out of nothing, right? Like very resilient. And I think that's what a lot of us, too, in terms of people of color, we have done just always made something out of nothing. But at the same time, you're right. In terms of white males that get in certain positions, hey, here's everything you need, the team that you need. Okay, you need to go to these different geographies versus when it comes to us. It's like, let's see what you do first in this particular thing. But if I'm operating globally, I need to be able to physically be there just like you know, the white male counterpart is doing within the first 30 days. And yeah, it you can't sit there and say that, hey, I'm not executing in the way I need to, but at the same time, you're giving me limited nothing pretty much to work with.

Why DEI Cannot Live In HR

SPEAKER_00 23:20

I think one of the most frustrating parts, especially as an HR practitioner, is that most organizations decide that DEI is actually the HR problem. It is a talent management problem, it is a PR problem, but none of it is an organizational problem that needs to be solved for at the actual foundations of our business. And how do you help companies understand that this can't just be an HR thing? It can't just be a TEA thing, it has to be an every person, everyday thing, which means it has to be embedded in the decisions that we make day to day.

SPEAKER_01 23:52

Yeah, absolutely. And this is something I was talking to a friend about not too long ago. I'm like, why is everything get dumped on HR? How does being a good human get dumped on HR? Like, this is a business situation. HR is here, you know, setting the tone in terms of the tools you need, if you need to make sure that you can execute that right. But when it comes to making sure that diversity, equity, and inclusion is happening throughout all parts of the organization, that is everybody who's within the organization's responsibility to do that. There's no way that you're gonna sit there and blame HR. Like, I'm sorry, I'm triggered because I was like, there's no way you can blame HR for being like, hey, well, we have these diversity problems. I I wasn't the one that sat there and told you to say certain things to individuals or be biased. I did not do that.

SPEAKER_00 24:48

So, which leads me to my next thing, which was when it wasn't an HR or a TA problem, this was actually because we needed to look like we cared. And that is actually the most harmful stance I think at a company could have taken in the DEI uprising was we don't actually care about our people, but we do care about our bottom line, and customers are buying from organizations that they feel like are equitable, that are doing the work. So we need to at least look like we're doing the work. And I think even now it's still really hard for people to differentiate between who's doing the work, who is trying to do the work and maybe not getting it right, versus companies who are truly not doing it, but they're slapping a pride logo on in June, they're putting the little fist up in February, but they're actually not doing anything. That is an outward manifestation of DEI, but nothing has been internal. How can you help people differentiate between who's actually trying versus who is spending a lot of marketing money?

Spotting Performative DEI Versus Real

SPEAKER_00 25:46

So, in terms of the marketing money, this is what folks doing.

SPEAKER_01 25:50

You're mentioning you're on the money too when it comes to sticking up the logo. This is what happens. So you're gonna plaster up, you know, the picture, let's say me, picture of me with on within the website, but there's no one that looks like me. So that's just trying, not even trying to do it, you're not doing it at all. You're trying to be performative. That's what it is. Like, yeah, I care that people are here even though they're not really here. When it comes to folks that are actually trying to do it, that's when they're changing up how they operate in meetings. Hey, bring somebody along within X ERG, whether it is, you know, Black ERG, Asian ERGs, LGBTQIA ERGs, those type of things, bringing somebody in that can really contribute to the conversation, not just observe. And I say that all the time. And it might be scary, it could be intimidated for someone to come in, whether it's a larger KPI conversation or an executive conversation, but they're getting the exposure and doing it repeatedly. It's not like a one-time thing, like, oh yeah, like, yeah, sure, come on in and you know, sit in this meeting. And no, no, no. Like, this is the way that you really discover the talents of people. And also, too, kind of going in a different direction a little bit too. When we talk about talents of people, you a lot of people don't discover the talents of our workforce too, because they're so stuck on the same five people that they want to be leading certain things. And then when someone leaves, they're like, Oh, I didn't know this person had X experience and that. I was like, No, because you never cared to know. And you would have known that if you would have done little things like expanding in terms of being president ERGs, sending people into those different KPI meetings, when it comes to any type of conversation about changes within the organization, bringing people along as well. It's you know, it's sad, it's as simple as that, but people don't want to do that because it's hierarchy issues, bias, racism that comes along, and wanting to always tell people, yeah, well, this person's not ready for X, Y, and Z, this, this, and this. Okay. Like what you know what you're really saying, and you don't want whether the person to be up front because you're afraid that you're going to be exposed in terms of competency, or you just don't want someone to have something else. You know what I mean? Have something different, be able to get promoted, all those different things.

SPEAKER_00 28:17

So, for those people who we know, 600,000 black women have been pushed out of the workforce. And so, for those interviewing, what are some of the questions they can ask when meeting with a company to see if this is going to be at least a place who's trying?

SPEAKER_01 28:32

Yeah, in terms of asking in terms of their org, what does your org look like? And that's something you can see. True. I mean, there's definitely one of the things you can see on the website, but a question would be what do you do in terms of diversity, being direct about it. I've always been. And what are your initiatives when it comes to diversity, equity, and inclusion? And talk about career pathing. What does that look like within your organization? What sponsorship opportunities are there within your organization? Those are heavy-hitting questions that you can't really hide behind. And even if you're saying that we need work on this, I feel like that's a better answer than trying to lie and say that you're doing something when in reality it's not like that.

SPEAKER_00 29:21

So for companies who are trying to get it right, and again, I like to remind people like there is no point in time where you've like reached DEI ascension, right? Like you're the mother Teresa of TEI and you never have to do this work again. Unfortunately, and fortunately, you have to do this work forever, right? Because it's not only ever changing, but we as humans, none of us are perfect. You will never get it right all of the time. But think of all the things I know today that are so different from 10 years ago or even five years ago. So for companies who are looking to get it at least kind of right, what are some of the first things you would suggest they start looking at?

SPEAKER_01 29:59

Yeah, I was in that situation too, because you know, I was asked to do work that was big work, it's bigger than yourself, right? And it's going directly to people that you're connected with who have done the work, who have done the work well. And even if they have like a second degree connection to being able to talk about what does that really look like? How can I be truly impactful other than doing something that involves food? Or, like, you know what I mean? Like, I want more than the party when it comes to this. And especially as someone who works so much with performance and talent and leadership, and it deals a lot with career pathing and the trajectory of people's lives within the organization. How can I make sure that collaboration happens? And when I spoke to different people about that, one of the things was making sure to cross-collaborate with organizations, even if it's you know, outside nonprofits and things like that, that's going to help you navigate way better than you know, doing nothing. And I love how you say, you know, trying to do because it's something that you can't get into ascension for. It's going to evolve, it's going to change as time goes along.

Politics And The Retreat From DEI

SPEAKER_00 31:17

How would you say, and again, this is not keeping the conversation light, but how would you say the last, I don't know, 18 to 24 months politically has impacted the way DEI looks today?

SPEAKER_01 31:32

Yeah, there's a lot of organizations who are staying in the middle of the road for sure when it comes to DEI because of the current administration. And then there's also the confusion, too, for people who don't do the work. And, you know, a lot of DEI initiatives are stripped as well. And, you know, the last 18 to 24 months have been pretty hectic and chaotic. As you mentioned, 600,000 black women are out of work. There's a lot of conversations about, you know, we can't use certain words like diversity, it's the inclusion effort, you know, and even that, it's like, I get so frustrated because I'm just like, when are we just going to stop this? And it's always going to be something that we're fighting for the end of time, it feels like, when it comes to the workplace. But with our current political environment, speaking about DENI as if it is negative, it's causing people to outrightly not hire anybody that's diverse when it comes to people of color, when it comes to people in terms of LGBTQIA, all of that. So, I mean, Maddie, it's I'm sorry, I don't know if I answered your question, but it says it's heavy. You know, it is really heavy for sure.

SPEAKER_00 32:49

Yeah, I think that is definitely one of the things that frustrates me because in the grand scheme of things, right? Like it shouldn't be political. It shouldn't be political to provide people the resources they need to be successful. And that is so much of what this work is about, right? It's not about uplifting one person because they're better than the other, it is giving resources to this person that they did not have because of the way that the system operates. Right. And I don't know, man. Personally, I don't think being a good human should be a political stance. I want everyone, and like I am, everyone knows this. I'm a hater. Like I am a grade A hater. And I said this in the group chat the other day, like, I'm a hater, but I want everyone to have a good experience. I just want them to have it away from me personally. And that's really how I feel, right? Like, I do not have to like you to want a better life for you. I do not have to like you to want safety for you. I don't even have to understand you to want those things. And so for me, I just don't understand where the connection is missed. Is I just want humans to have a good time. I want humans to have food, shelter, water, the ability to feed themselves and have safe careers and jobs and lives. I don't know where people disagree with that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:01

Right, right, right. Absolutely. It's not like I don't have to be your best friend, but also too, you want things to be fair and equitable as well. And the fact that people think it's okay that you know you can't have certain things, even though you've done the work and you did all the things to get there, it it's baffling to me. And that goes back to when we talk about in terms of why does HR have to teach you how to be a good human to make sure when we think about compensation, you know what, you're in a certain role or a certain level to be compensated fairly and equitably within a band, too. I was like, that affects my 401k, that affects how I show up for my family in the long term as well. So, you know, it's it's baffling to say the least. But at the same time, these are things that I think about when I think about my own career and what I've gone through too. It's traumatizing because of the fact that the system's not built for you, but you're trying to find ways to survive it. And we shouldn't even have to use that word survive.

The Merit Myth And A Troll Gets Answered

SPEAKER_00 35:13

So I never try not to feed the trolls, but I am gonna feed this one because they're mass commenting here. So this person is joining us from Twitch, lucky me. And they say that a lot of people view DEI as bad because it requires setting aside merit and putting skin color first. And I'm just going to say this very, very quickly. No, that is what we have done systemically through history. White men specifically have been given a position in power because they were white men, not because they were good. You want to know what cures that for me, and knowing that, is look at the presidential situation today. I am capable of doing anything because they were capable of doing that. The idea that we are trying to put skin color ahead of merit is laughable at best, um, harmful at worst. And I do try to not feed the trolls, but you're going so fast that I feel like I had to in this case. No one is saying hire me because I'm black. It is saying examine the fact that I am as capable as a white man, and neither of those things have anything to do with skin color. Up until this point, we have lived in a world that we thought was based in meritocracy, and in actuality it was based in mediocrity. I hope you have a good time with that information. This is the last you'll hear from me. Have a great time on Twitch. So moving on. Moving on.

Allyship As A Badge And Proximity

SPEAKER_00 36:26

One of the things that I also think has popped up a lot is the concept of allyship. And my frustration here runs deep and wide. And so much of it is because for me, I feel like when you are truly an ally, an advocate, an accomplice, I don't have to hear about it. You don't have to tell me over and over that, right? Because it's not a badge. It's not like a thing that you slap on your resume to make us all feel good. It is just work that you do. And so I would love to talk a little bit about how allyship became more of a badge of honor than truly doing the work, you know. Around 2020, we saw a little bit different version of allyship.

SPEAKER_01 37:09

Right. It's one of those things where with allyship, it's like, I want to be a good person, I want to be a nice person and say that I, you know, I like you. But when it comes to you being around, you know, my table, I'm gonna kind of push you to the side a little bit. Allyship is um a very interesting thing because, especially within the last five years, and I'm gonna speak to my own experience on this, you know, people that you think were allies to you really were not. You know, they're not the people that are bringing you up in the rooms, they're not the people who are saying that, you know, this is the person that's gonna drive this. They more look at like allyship, like, oh, you're here to help me in terms of being the uh sidekick, versus, you know what, this is the person that I'm gonna bring up because they have the merit, they have the skill, they have everything that they need to be successful. But I also say this to people too, especially our white male counterparts, is like you didn't wake up and become this executive, the CEO, this person that's driving power. You had sponsors within your life that got you there, that helped you along the way. And we don't have that. So it's like you're saying that, oh my gosh, you're saying a skin color first, but it is not. It's not because you know, I have all the know-how to, I have the ideas that are helping drive that uh revenue within the organization, right, widening those margins, but I don't get the visibility. And it's a real thing. So when we talk about allyship, don't be performative with it. Don't say, oh my gosh, this is so and so. And I know her, so I'm a good person, like I'm willing to talk to you, but to what extent?

SPEAKER_00 39:02

Well, so I think a lot of people are using allyship as just that, right? Like it was the way of it was like the Batman banner, but for like a good white person, like I am a good white person. And then it could be turned around, but I'm an ally. I can't be a racist. So when you were trying to call people out or call people in on, like, hey, that thing you did was harmful, or one of the things that I found often was people were speaking for me. Like they'd be like, you have to be offended at this thing. I'm like, I'm not offended at this. I'm not you don't tell me what I'm offended by first and first and foremost, like stop trying to speak for black women, for women of color, for queer people. If that is not your lived experience, you don't get to actually tell us how we navigate a scenario.

SPEAKER_01 39:36

And say you don't know. It's okay to say, I'm not sure about this subject. Let me get somebody else who can talk about it. I mean, I think that's one of the best things that you can do as well. And, you know, I think about that too with allyship. I've had it within my own career as well, and also personally, you know, where people may say, Listen, that's not my lane. And let me learn, let me hear from you. What does that sound like too instead of doing the reverse where it's like the which way is up rhetoric? You you don't want to do that because then that's how things become harmful, as you said.

SPEAKER_00 40:13

And I think there was a lot of like, like what at least for me, right? Because I have a decently large online platform. One of the things that I learned were people weren't my allies. They wanted proximity, proximity to me because it earned them credibility. If people saw them in the same room with me, they assumed that they were trustworthy, they were safe, they were knowledgeable about this work. Like I found out that people were telling people that they knew me and we were really close friends. And I was like, I don't even know that person's male name. Aubrey, Aubrey Blanche and I have like a rule like if you've never seen my butt cheeks, we're not that good of friends. We had like on vacationing out in the sun. Exactly, exactly. Or sometimes it's just like, you want to see it? It looks really nice today. Can I make these slap for me? But I was I recognized that so many people actually use proximity to black and brown women in these spaces to gain credibility, to build their brand, to build their business, to be able to continue that grift, right?

Pay, Lowballing, And Owning Luxury

SPEAKER_00 41:08

Because now we've been saying, oh, well, you shouldn't be taking the the labor out of on you know on black women, on brown women, come to me, I'll charge you for it. Because I knew a ton of white women in 2020 charging 40, 50, 60,000 for weeklong workshops. But wonder what would happen if I charge 40, 50, 60,000 for week long workshops.

SPEAKER_01 41:28

Why? What are you doing? And this, this, and this, and you know, going back and forth in terms of why should I pay you this when on the other hand, you know, when others come up with these figures, it's like it's okay. And not even knowing, and also not even knowing the content that goes along with it, the value that you're bringing as well. I'm just like, I get to a point too where I feel defeated because I'm just like, come on now, like, why are we going back and forth about why should I pay you more than the next person? It's just like, let's let's stop this. Let's stop this. This is just ridiculous. Sorry, go ahead, Maddie.

SPEAKER_00 42:06

No, but I think you know, that's oh, I listen, I will die on the hill of like talking about my rates because for me, that is the most frustrating part, is we don't actually have to argue about my rates. But my question is, why would you try to lowball me, but you wouldn't do it to someone who didn't look like me?

SPEAKER_01 42:23

Because you're not supposed to have it. That's in your in folks' head, and we're talking about bias, we're talking about stereotyping. Oh no, there's no way that she's gonna get paid all that. And you know, I think about too, I go through the process too with people when they start doing that in terms of why are you asking for so much money? And I I had a conversation with you about this not too long ago. It's because, oh, you get paid more than the average black person, so you should be happy with whatever this is. And it's like, no, I have expertise that will drive millions to your organization. So why should I have to back down on what I'm asking for? And is what you're offering is below the band. That's happening, you know, that's happened throughout my career as well.

SPEAKER_00 43:12

I just think there's this trend of asking black women specifically to be happy with the bare minimum. I remember when I first started talking about racism on LinkedIn, people would be like, racist, you we can share a water fountain now. Like things used to be worse. And I'm like, well, yes, things used to be worse, but they can still be better.

SPEAKER_01 43:30

What do you mean worse while you're talking about like slavery? Like, what are we talking about?

SPEAKER_00 43:35

Exactly. Like at some point as a woman, I couldn't have a credit card. I mean, yes, things can always be worse. However, telling me to be excited that I can use the same water fountain as you doesn't actually hit the way you think it's hitting. And the idea that I should just be happy that someone wants to cut me any kind of check, when sometimes, sometimes the money I'm offered, I don't want to pay the taxes on that. It is not worth it to me. I would rather I I'm good actually. And I don't think people think about that because then they spend all this time trying to humble you as a black woman, right? They don't want you to talk about what you make because they don't want you to let other black women know that they can make this too.

SPEAKER_01 44:10

That's why I love the black woman luxury content that's within TikTok. Because I'm like, no, we need to show and show, like, no, I deserve this too. Absolutely. And, you know, when I think about too, when you're saying that, you know, hey, things could have been worse than the bare minimum. I said, no, do not come to me and say you just want to pick my brain and get all the things that literally you should be paying for and expect for me to give it to you for free because you are expecting that I am trying to prove something to you. I think it's, you know, a it's a dynamic where there's so many different things. It's the money aspect. You already know that, you know, we are the most educated, but lowest paid. But also, too, you're thinking, oh my gosh, like, you know, this is a great way for you to get yourself out there. I had that before, too. Great way to get yourself out. No, not free. I have done the work, I've done it for 15 years. I deserve to get paid for it as well. Just like you wouldn't go to, I always use the example of going to a car dealership and be like, yeah, I want this a hundred thousand dollar car and I'm gonna take it off the lot, but I'll give you 20 grand for it instead. It's like, no, we can't accept that.

SPEAKER_00 45:28

We do see that in influencer world now. They do show up places and they're like, can I have this for free? Because I'll you'll you'll be on my Instagram. Um I just, you know, it's mind-boggling to me that we as black women have to defend our right to luxury and to rest and to softness. And I have always been a really big advocate of like, I like nice things. I like to be butt-naked on a beach. I like money. And although I am fiercely anti-capitalist, I also recognize that I am forced to work in the system. And as long as I have to work in the system, I'm going to operate it in it within it the way I need to to feel good about it. I am not going to buy, not, not buy the nice bag because someone tells me that I shouldn't and I should put that towards a mortgage. I already have a mortgage. There are all of these rules about the internet that they try to give you and feed you that at the end of the day, you can't take this shit with you. And at the end of the day, you're not going to be like, oh, I wish I had listened to more people on the internet. Like that's not going to be your last dying thought. So you might as well live a life that feels good, soft, whatever that means to you. And so maybe that means you're outdoors all the time. Maybe that means you drive a car you really like. Maybe it means you buy a bargain. I don't care what you do with your money, but you do deserve to have it. Whatever.

SPEAKER_01 46:45

I do what I want. I get what I like. And I shouldn't be questioned about it. Like, oh, well, why are you going to get such fancy things? Why do you get this? I remember now I have a story because I remember minding my own business at work a long time ago, too. And this is my juj. Like, I like, you know, some jewelry. I try to bring out my inner Dominique Devereaux from Dynasty, you know, that type of thing. It's just me. Like, I like my heels, I like my stuff. And I buy from so many different places. Like, and that's just me. I like what I do. But at the same time, I remember this woman just decided, like, okay, she sent a link through Teams. I was like, oh, I saw these shoes. I don't know if they're high-end enough for you. But I sent them out. And I'm like, what the hell did that mean? I was like, okay, first of all, what do you mean by that? You know what I mean? And just silence. Because I'm just like, well, you're questioning about what I buy, but you're not questioning the executive leader just bought a boat. You're not going, oh, well, you know, that's just a lot for you. You know, you don't say that you expect that. But if I want to do something for myself and mean, I like bags, I like shoes, or even going on a really nice vacation, you know, you shouldn't be like, oh, yeah, you know what? You should probably think about saving. You don't know what I have going on in my life. You don't know anything in terms of what I mean is in my wallet. So why do you assume that I need to be educated on that? So, yes, everybody, do your thing, live your life. It's short. You only have one.

SPEAKER_00 48:24

Well, it's funny. I have a similar story, but so when I'm a car girly, I drive probably what is like a lot of men's dream car. And I love her. She's very cute. One of them. But when I first bought it, I remember going to the when I still worked in-house. I pulled up to the office and the CFO, VP of finance, was like, Well, what are people going to think when they see this car? And I was like, I was like, that is not a thought that crossed my mind. My thought was not like, oh, what does my team think when I buy this car? Like, what are they gonna think about? Absolutely. And he was like, but what about the people that make less than you if they see this car? And I'm like, I don't know. Did you did you ask that question when the CEO bought a five million dollar house? Right.

SPEAKER_01 49:02

What about your car? A Debi say anything to you.

SPEAKER_00 49:06

And I was like, that is I was like, that's such an interesting question. Because would you have said that to and literally anybody else? But even with my car, like I have been like I was at the grocery store in like southern Massachusetts, and I was getting out, and a woman was like, Is that your car? No, I stole it. I stole it and I still I drove it right to stop and shop to get chicken tenders. You're right. That's what I would do as a car thief. I would buy chicken tenders. Like what I just don't understand.

SPEAKER_01 49:34

Diabolical. Like, what is going on? No, it just revives it. And it's still the subject DEI, I promise. I

Travel Bias And Being Policed

SPEAKER_01 49:41

promise. But I literally just flew out to Arizona for an HR retreat. And I'm just waiting to board American Airlines. And I usually go up because for those who have not met me, I am a tiny person and I don't like to get lost. I am four foot eleven, I am 95 pounds, and I like to try to like make my way because I fly with American all the time and I'm priority. So I want to make sure I get seen so I get on the plane. And this man comes up to me and he goes, because he saw me standing just waiting for my you know group recall. He was like, Are you are you group eight? And I said, No, I'm group four. He goes, Oh, okay. And I looked at him like, You've got to be kidding. You know what? It's 5 a.m. I just want to live my best life right now and just get on the plane. And then, you know, just I felt like it was a tumble, like going into the executive lounge, like you know, American or whatever you fly. We're gonna have no day passes today. I am a card holder, lady.

SPEAKER_00 50:46

Like, I'm not gonna issue with Delta all the time. I have and they're like, This is this is for Delta cardholders. And I'm like, here's my platinum. Thank you. Have a have a day.

SPEAKER_01 50:58

From me, they were like, uh-uh, okay, we're gonna shut this down before it goes on CNN.

SPEAKER_00 51:02

So I was boarding first class once, and the person in front of me was like, Well, this is first class boarding, and I was like, Yes, thank you. I can read both the sign and my ticket.

SPEAKER_01 51:12

Yeah, that happened to me. I was flying out. We had a new uh CFO coming at the time. His name is Ron, he's fabulous, so I don't know if he's watching right now. And we were flying together to go to Ohio, and we both were boarding first class to go to Ohio, and uh somebody said something to me, and he jumped in quick. He said, Excuse you, we are first class now. Go sit down somewhere. He was he was hot. Um, and then he was like, I'm so sorry that happened to you. You know what I mean? When you talk about people who see these things happen, they step in right away. And I said, I could have got him. And he's like, No, you don't have to do that. You know, that's a shame that people do that.

SPEAKER_00 51:54

It's but again, I think as black women, we are expected to be expect, we are expected to be operating at the bare minimum. Yeah. Because that's what the world wants for us. So for me, that is also tied back into DEI because we are expected to overperform and then be undersold. I think one of the hardest things for me specifically is I struggle with resting because I know that I'm only as good as the last good thing I did. And the further I get from that good thing, the less relevant I become. And it's really hard to race that clock all the time. And for you, how do you help companies shift away from that narrative around just not even just black women, but marginalized people, helping them feel like they can slow down and not constantly have to prove themselves?

Strategy Clarity So People Can Breathe

SPEAKER_01 52:43

Right. Yeah, there's inner work that has to, you know, happen first. And I do go through that, of course. You know, the imposter syndrome is real. But what I like to do, and especially since I'm in the transformation space too, what is so important is for people to understand from an organization standpoint, this is the three to five year strategy that's going on. That's why I really push executives on it. You need to make sure that that trickles all the way through because one, from a DE and I standpoint, that helps people know I am a part of this. I am someone who is contributing to this organization. Then when it gets broken down to that one year plan and their goals to it, you're not feeling like you're working so hard to like you're thinking about, okay, am I doing the right things? And I've been there where I'm just like, I do not understand like what is the strategy that's going on. And you're feeling like, am I okay? You shouldn't even have to ask that. I already know what I'm working towards, I already know what I got. So that foundational work is important for organizations. So if you want to talk about D E and I, how can I start? It's making sure that everyone has context of the business because everyone drives the business. I don't care who you are. And I always say this too, because I've done workshops in my corporate career where someone will just say, Hi, I'm just a machine operator. And I said, No, no, stop right there. You're not just a machine operator. I said, if you were not here, this business would not run. And I remember telling this young man that, and he came back to me at the right before things had changed within our organization. He said, Thank you so much for saying that. That really changed, you know, everything for me. He wound up getting promoted and had a different lens and attitude. So sometimes those things, too, the things you think wouldn't change the lives of people and your employees, it really does. And, you know, I just think that making sure that people have equity when it comes to understanding the importance of who they are definitely helps.

SPEAKER_00 54:52

I love that. So if there was one last thing that you want people to understand about DEI and power dynamics, how what would that be?

SPEAKER_01 55:04

Gosh, Maddie, you break it down even further for me. DEI and power dynamics. What do you mean? Because I don't want to give a whole dissertation for our folks.

SPEAKER_00 55:11

I like a dissertation, but when we think about DEI and who truly holds the power, like who actually needs to be listening to this conversation today?

SPEAKER_01 55:21

Every single person. I don't care who you are. I'm pointing to the invisible person I can't see on the other side, but you. It starts with you. And you do not have to be this person who has this heavy, inflated title. D E and I starts with you, your voice. You know, speak up. You never know whose life you can change by saying in terms of what's happening, not only in your life, but in your working life as well. Because it's real, we spend most of our time at work. This is the change I want to see. This is how I want to feel when I come into an organization. I don't want to feel like I am someone who is invisible or someone who has to deal with feeling like I don't matter. So, what I would say to people is it starts with you, speak up. Even if you think no one's listening, someone is.

SPEAKER_00 56:14

So

How To Work With Jasmine

SPEAKER_00 56:15

I like to always end with, I want to make sure that we can plug you. So tell us a little bit about what people can hire you for, how they can work with you, and what working with you feels like.

SPEAKER_01 56:23

Yeah. So in terms of working with me, so if you're an organization who is going through some chaos when it comes to your whole cycle of performance management, talent management, and leadership development and making sure that every single person in your organization understands that. So your succession pipelines look good and also development, because if you don't have one, you can't do the other. Yes, please hire me. And I do keep a lens on DEI when it comes to that. And you definitely see that when we workshop and talk about in terms of our strategy and strategy execution and making sure that all everybody who's a key player, and key players include your mid-level managers, people who are direct labor, and you'll see in terms of how fast things change when it comes to staying profitable, but also to being good humans as well. So make sure you go on www.virtuekey.com. You can also find me on Instagram. It's at jazzmosley. It's my first and middle name. And then also on LinkedIn, I am almost at 3K on LinkedIn. I know for some people, I know for some people they're like 3K, but I'm like, I'm so excited because when I started this journey, I only had like 600 people. So oh for real? Oh, I learned something new. So again, make sure you follow me on LinkedIn as well. I love to chat, I love to give tips and ideas, and yes, find me there.

SPEAKER_00 57:51

I started my LinkedIn journey with 811 followers. So, or connections rather. Okay, so hopefully. For what it is worth, I turned it into so the way my brain works is I have to put everything on my calendar. And when I was building my LinkedIn network, I basically calendared it. I would force myself to connect with 10 new people a day, engage with five pieces of content per day, and then write at least one new piece of content a week without overthinking it. That is like the key part is like you write the thing, you post the thing, and then you close your laptop. I always tell people it's like when you send this when you send like a dirty text and you're like, you're like, okay, I'm gonna go wash a dish. I'm not gonna look at it for a while. So 3,000 is so good. And again, um, we talk about this a lot on the show. It does not matter how many followers you have because fans are more important. Do you have a hundred thousand fans or a hundred thousand followers? So I have people that follow me. I actually think hate follow me. They follow me just to troll me, which how does someone do?

SPEAKER_01 58:53

You know what? Whoever is trolling Maddie, you better cut out, you're gonna have to deal with me. I'll be in the comments.

SPEAKER_00 58:59

And I'm such a cutie petiti. Like I am a hater, but I'm a cute one. I don't know. Well, thank you so much for coming on today, chatting with us about my favorite topic. If you are listening to this in the podcast version, all the links she mentioned will be right below in the big giant wall of text that I know you didn't read. The links are in there. Thank you for crashing out with me. I appreciate it. Thank all of you for crashing out with me. Happy crashing out, and I will see y'all next time. Bye.