He Let His 4-Year-Old Hunt First — and Never Regretted It | Michael Letchworth

What does it actually take to build a business, raise a great kid, and find yourself — all at the same time?
Michael Letchworth is a partner at Sam Jones Barbecue, founder of Fox Hollow Outdoors, and the dad behind one of the most genuine father-son outdoor brands in the game. But the story behind the content? That's where it gets real.
In this episode, Michael opens up about hitting rock bottom in 2022, quitting alcohol for good, and how clarity changed every single thing — his business, his fatherhood, his purpose. He talks about intentionally letting Larken (his son) kill a turkey at 4 and a deer at 5 before he ever did himself, buying 83 acres to build the childhood he never had, and why success takes a lot longer than anyone tells you.
In this episode:

Why Michael let Larken hunt before he ever did — and why he'd do it again
Rock bottom, suicidal thoughts, and quitting alcohol at 35
How fitness rewired his brain and his life
Fox Hollow Outdoors, Waypoint TV Season 1, and what's next
The real cost of building a TV show with no big sponsors
Screen time: why he pushes back on the "get off the iPad" crowd
23 years in the BBQ business — and when people finally learned his name
The slow grind of building something that lasts

Follow Michael:
Instagram: @michael.letchworth
YouTube: Fox Hollow Outdoors NC
Website: foxhollowoutdoors.com
Watch Season 1: Waypoint TV App (free)
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YouTube: Search "Depth Over Image"
Facebook: Below the Surface
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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Good morning. Welcome to the Below to Surface podcast. Hope everybody's having a good morning. Um, I got a guest today that I've been excited to have on for a while now. Um, just for who he is and how I've gotten to know him um through social media and things that he's been doing. Um it's really impressive, um, especially being a father. Um, it really grabbed my attention. Um, so it's somebody I really wanted to have on the show. Um he owns some restaurants, which that's the industry that we're into. So we got a lot to talk about that. So we got Michael Letchworth. Um, welcome. Thanks, man. Glad to have you, man.

SPEAKER_04 0:43

Yeah, I'm happy to be here.

SPEAKER_02 0:44

Yeah, it's exciting. Um I've watched you for a while now. Um you didn't know me, I didn't know you. Um kind of heard your name to be mutual people and stuff. Um, but you do some really cool stuff, man. And I want to get into that a little bit later. Okay. What you do with your son. Um, it really grabs me. We, you know, me and a family watch the episodes. That's awesome. Um, and I know it's it's big on YouTube for um to pre-chat to other parents to be more involved with their kids and get them outdoors and stuff. So we'll we'll tap into that. But that's how I got to know you, man. And kudos to you for what you're doing. Thanks, man. It's impressive. Um, how did you get into all that? Like, where where did that come from?

SPEAKER_04 1:36

The um, like the like documenting the stuff or just the outdoor stuff in general?

SPEAKER_02 1:40

Yeah, like we're like let's go back to the beginning of Aiden. How is this how was this childhood like?

SPEAKER_04 1:48

Um, so what was like Larkin's childhood like in like a lot of people?

SPEAKER_02 1:52

Yeah, like Larkin in growing up, because y'all are in Aiden, right? Yep, yep. So like so it's a small town, so how was Larkin's life in Aiden and we um we lived in town Aiden up until what I gotta do reverse math on Larkin's age?

SPEAKER_04 2:08

Probably until Larkin was like three or four, and we built a home a little bit outside of town, and um that was kind of the place where we because where we were at, you know, the driveway was like 30 foot long and cars were zooming past it. And yeah, we knew we wanted to get somewhere. I grew up out in the country riding the creek paths and riding four-wheelers and just being able to shoot a you know, shoot skeet in the backyard if I wanted to, and we we knew we wanted that opportunity. Um so we we built and then it was a family friend who is now my um my sister's father-in-law, um, he owned uh property behind us. And I'd gone to him and was like, hey man, can I like can I buy like one acre behind the house? Or like can I access this land for Larkin to maybe have a tree house or just build a play or whatever? And he was like, Yeah, you know, just treat it like it's yours. I don't know if I'm gonna sell anything. And all right. Well, there was um there was a gentleman, uh a guy that I knew um and that had been a longtime friend of theirs. He lived in the front of this neighborhood, and he actually had had always had the permission to hunt on the land. And and this gentleman, Kenneth, had told me, he said, Hey, look, you can ride your four-wheelers back there, do whatever. Just, you know, um, Tim's the only guy who's got permission to be back there, so you just run anything by him. So I got it with Tim and I was like, hey man, listen, I don't hunt. My son don't hunt. Like, all I want to do is be able to ride a four-wheeler. I've seen there's some old logging paths back here. I've got a tractor with a bush hawk, I'll help you cut paths, I'll do whatever. But like, if if Kenneth said, I don't mind being he don't mind me being back here, if you'll let me be back here too, I'll help you, but I'll also respect whatever you're doing and stay out of the woods. Um, and so this was all like Larkin way too small to do any of these things that I'm trying to envision happening. Um and then uh unfortunately, man, uh there was a house fire and Tim passed away in that house fire. Wow. Yeah. And so the one person who had permission to be in these woods other than myself now isn't using the woods. And it kind of went, it was a conversation a little bit back and forth of, you know, um, and I just finally told Kim, look, if you're ever willing to sell it, like let's talk, but I don't really want to have to manage permission of who's back here and not I'd rather it just be mine. Um, and we ended up being able to work a deal that I ended up purchasing, and it's about 83 acres. Well, the first plot was 60, and then I bought 20 more from another guy, but we got 83 acres right behind the house that I started. I don't have a lot of equipment. I've got a 32 horsepower tractor with a bush hog and a box blade, and I've done a hell of a lot with those two. You can do it. You can do it. I mean, beating them down, tearing them up. I mean, just everything they're not intended for. I've been putting them through. Right. Um, so I just started making paths and doing stuff, and that became my little release, and it kind of was this uh almost I was like an uh uh an imposter because I'd always watch friends and stuff hunt and and have land. But part of my reason for never hunting and fishing was the lack of resources, and that resources being my dad didn't do those things, we didn't have land, I didn't really have friends, and and honestly, like when you've got land and you've got stuff, you can't always just invite the whole world to come. And you know, you so it's just like one of those things, it's got to be you. Um so now here I start like I'm having these fantasies in my head, all like shoot, like I got land now and like this kind of stuff. But still, Larkin, um, by the time Larkin was about four-ish, he was watching YouTube, and it's kind of really weird to look back on because I remember through the barbecue business, we would have people come up and they'd say, Hey, we're we're gonna film this little thing on barbecue, it's gonna be on YouTube. I'm like, okay, like YouTube. You know, that's kind of dumb. Or, you know, and I didn't really watch YouTube. I didn't use YouTube as a tool to learn, to entertain. I didn't use it for anything like that back then. I just knew this where people posted uh, you know, stuff. So Larkin's always at home and he's in bed and he's watching Caroline All Out. Are you familiar with that one? All right, absolutely. Didn't know it. You know, like I didn't grow up watching Bill Dance. I didn't grow up watching these things, right? So like Caroline All Out was like kind of Larkin's Bill Dance, and he would watch that and he watched the Outdoor Boys. And um so the Outdoor Boys became our thing like Saturday mornings at 9 a.m. when they dropped a new episode. We were that's what we were gonna try to do is watch it, you know. And all that was inspiration for me, like my head spinning, like I'm how do I create things? And then Larkin saying, Oh, I want, you know, I like to do this. Um my brother-in-law grew up being outside, everything. So we had been always um involved since the beginning with this little turkey youth hunt called the Pirate Classic in eastern North Carolina. Okay. Uh, we always would go out there, Sam Jones Barbecue would cook a pig, we would serve, we'd do all that stuff. And I had been turkey hunting through a friend who had started carrying me, um, really being introduced to it through being part of this Pirate Classic thing, like, dang, I want to go turkey hunting. Um and I got so kind of off-subject, but for future people who go turkey hunting with a buddy, first my first turkey hunt, we go out, we set up the blind, three or four turkeys come right into the decoys, and my buddy goes, Don't shoot that one, there's a bigger one. Don't shoot that one. Well, that choice not to shoot that bird cost me seven more seasons. I never got a chance at another turkey for seven more seasons. Now, three seasons before that was where we're at in time. Larkin's four years old. I've been doing this turkey hunt thing, and um, and I hope that timeline did just become really confusing. But um, you're good. But basically, Larkin shot a turkey two or three years before I ever did. But so I'm sitting here and we're we're doing this youth hunt. I'm like, dang it, I'm gonna get I'm gonna enter Larkin into this youth hunt. He's four. How am I gonna do it? I'll sit him on my lap, we'll figure it out, whatever. And so that was the first time we ever used our land to really, I was like, we got this, like we've got this resource now. Let's start working Larkin into it. But I was didn't know if he was too young. I didn't know what would be do. So man, we went and set up um the back of our property on the creek, and Larkin was, I had this, uh, I bought this chair that had the like a swivel mount gun lock on it. Yep, and I had this little Rossi 410, Rossi Tuffy, single shot 410, just clamped down. All the bolts are tight, like right at the decoy. And um we're sitting there and he's in my lap, and man, this turkey walks out finally after a couple hours, and he's like standing right at the decoy, bowed up, just being, you know, just real that real majestic the way a turkey does, but he's not moving or pecking his head or real curious. And I take the gun and I kind of line it up, and Larkin's in my lap, and I pop the safety off, and I'm like, all right, buddy, you should be good. And so like he looks down the barrel. I don't even remember if the gun's on my shoulder or was just kind of hanging out in limbo.

SPEAKER_01 9:15

Right.

SPEAKER_04 9:16

But Larkin leans his little big head over and he wraps his arm around, he pulls the trigger, and that turkey just falls. And that emotion, I start screaming like a little kid. My heart's beating so loud, like I can hear it before the shot. You know, it's the most intense moment. Um, and and Turkey Hunt still does that for me in a way because there's so there's this suspense. You see it, you hear them coming, you see it happening. And then at that exact moment, I've done everything that I knew to do. I've placed the blind, I've done the recon on where the bird's coming. I've gotten a setup, we're there, now the bird, and it's out of my control. And I don't know if it's gonna happen or not, right? You know, and when that bird fell, dude, it was the most exciting. I can't the point of me saying all this is I chase that feeling every day now. I'm sure. So, like when I see dads that are posting like their kid just killed a turkey, I know that feeling is so amazing. It's better than catching a fish or shooting a deer. I mean, like, it's just different to me. Um, maybe shooting a deer. I've never really done a ton of that. Um, but so that was hook line of sinker. It was four years old, and um, first turkey. We went to the little event, and you know, he got to show his bird off, ended up being a double bearded turkey, like big bird. He won fifth place, got him a free shotgun, a little plaque, and different stuff. So um, I was like, okay, we turkey hunt now for sure. We're pros now. Yeah. So that was April. That was April. Uh he was four. That fall he turned five and he shot his first deer. Um, he shot him a six-pointer. Uh, we had a 20-gauge with some buckshot in it, same deal, locked in that tripod. Um, and so now we're at this point in life where I've never killed a deer, I've never killed a turkey, and my five-year-old's killed both. Um but it was kind of this theme that has been long running now is he's first, and then if it works out for me that I get to do it, then so be it. But also, it's not worth it to me. I mean, partially being immature and selfish, if I do something before him, like he's pissed. Like, and so like and so like it's just not even worth it to me. Like, to give him that pride and to have him go, I've killed a deer my dad never has, or I've done this, my dad never has. Like, dude, you own it, you can have it. Right. Um, and so that was the true start to this journey. Okay. Um, and so I just wanted, I just love the outdoors. Like, I really I was getting to live these pieces of childhood that I never truly got to experience fully as a kid. I was around it. Yes, I have been fishing. I've been fishing my whole life in some way, meaning um a sales rep or somebody might say, Hey, you want to go offshore? Or, you know, you go with a friend, or we we do used to do a lot of food events in Charleston. And so I'd met some folks, and um, typically I would carry some of the staff members that were with me or myself, I would book a charter each year we went, like that kind of fishing. Right. I knew how to do it, I had done it, but I'd never truly done it for myself, like independently. So that was a new challenge. And just like an onion though, you just always have new layer to peel back. There's a a new way to go about it, a bigger fish, a new time, whatever, new, whatever, new technique. So I've just always I've loved it. And then the whole content thing just kind of came along through, you know. I watch Larkin sometimes, and I think everybody can relate to this, and it's not that Larkin in himself is just so special. I do think he's unique in certain ways, but everybody looks at their kid and they can just be amazed by like this little human, and you're surprised by their capabilities. Um, you're just surprised by them, and just you're just so proud. And so, in those proud moments that made you smile or made you laugh, or or made me laugh and smile, I would just post it and I would share it. And um, one thing I can say, like Larkin's not shy about being in front of a camera or having an opportunity to speak in front of somebody. It's honestly kind of when he turns on. Um you can tell. Yeah. And it's like, thankfully, now he we've had a couple of podcasts, thankfully not live, that he said a couple of things that are just like, I'm like, oh my God, I wish you hadn't said that. But for the most part, he keeps it between the ditches. And so I just saw an opportunity there um to share more because people got fulfillment out of it. Um, I've always been very insecure about posting stuff online. It's very kind of weird to put yourself out there where my safe space was was always posting things on a story because I'm like 24 hours and it's gone. Cone. You know, but like I always was really intimidated about putting that static post up there that was gonna live and would it especially your kid. Yeah, just like I but I just didn't want to be dumb or say anything, you know, put anything that looked cheesy or people were like, what's this guy doing? Um, so that was a big step with some of the guys helping me with the show to just start putting stuff out there. Um I also didn't want to seem like a wannabe influencer, like fake, like pushing stuff, but at the same time, when you have partners that are willing to help you do stuff, and maybe a lot of people don't understand how this stuff works, but like when somebody commits to helping you support something you're doing, and you sign a contract on those things, there's there's things that are deliverables that have to happen. They want a certain number of posts in a time frame, they want to be tagged in certain ways or to use certain things, and and so I'm still dialing that part in where I want to make sure it's very genuine because the thing about it is is we didn't cold call anybody to help us with this project. It was all like somebody we already had a relationship, a relationship with or had an active like ambassadorship with that were like, oh yeah, we'll help you with this, or hey, um, we'll help you, but you should call X also. Yeah, yeah. So the the show thing, um so that's kind of where we're at now, but to kind of back it up a little bit there to how it all kind of larkens childhood and and and getting to the kind of pinnacle where we're at now. Um I did uh and I've said a version of this about every time I've gotten to speak, but um through barbecue, you know, there's barbecue and outdoor events and brands and stuff kind of intermingle a little bit. And so I'd gotten a chance to I have a you know had a little bit of relationship with Yeti for about, I don't know, 12 years now. Um but I had met this videographer on that something we were doing, you know, and and one thing for me is that even like with Sam Jones Barbecue, you know, I'm Michael Lutchworth, right? Um the people aren't thriving to come like beat the door down to talk to me. You know, they're everybody's looking for that Sam Jones. Sam Jones. So when we're at these events and I'm there kind of as a support role, helping things happen. There's also these people that are in support roles with these other companies. And and uh, I'm always I'm trying to talk to everybody, make relationships with everybody, and for no alternative reasons other than we're all standing, we got to be here for 10 hours together. Hey, what's up, man? How you doing? And those guys were closer in my age, you know, yeah, and so these relationships that were just small talks and an Instagram follow 10 and 8 and 7 years ago, um, are we we're keeping up with each other, we're seeing things that are going on. And I was mowing grass at home one day, and my phone rings, and this my buddy Ben from Yeti and goes, Hey man, don't you uh uh I I know you live in like in North Carolina near Tennessee. Uh we got this shoot that's coming up, and we really need a father and son. I thought you'd be great for it. And I'm like, well, I don't live near Tennessee, but I will drive near Tennessee in a heartbeat. Yeah. And so so I got he's like, all right, cool, let's let's plan for it. And then in all that stuff, I haven't been around it enough to know that things change a lot. So I didn't want to get my hopes hard because you know, creative direction could completely change, just a lot of things logistically that could change, and the whole thing fall apart. So I did, I was trying not to get too excited, but man, this is gonna be so fun. It all worked out, and so what it was was you know, Yeti is always coming out with a new color. And for each color, there's obviously a big marketing plan that goes behind that. And there's some some of them are a little deeper in how they do videography work, photography, and different things. This particular one, they wanted to do a little bit of video work. We're probably gonna spend some of it off into some Father's Day ads. Um, and so we went to just outside of Knoxville in the Smoky Mountains for three or four days, and we had to film. It was the color was Firefly, and there was this firefly phenomenon that happens in that area every year, and we were documenting around that, and it was just we camped out like literally in tents by a creek, and part of my job too was to feed the staff, so I had kind of a sub Larkin's role was to be like primary talent. My role was to keep everybody fed and and stuff. Um, we were doing 12, 13-hour days out there, and and Larkin was killing the dude, like he got along with everybody, but um and everybody got along with him, they took time with him, and I could tell that it was something that was like nurturing and growing Larkin. Uh, and I've I've said this one other time before, but it was the impactful moment for me to know that I had to keep recreating this. And mind you, I'm a compounding emotion now. We had that turkey emotion of like what's fulfilling me, and like, you know, and then we're at the hotel, we we wrap the whole trip up, and so we all go get a hotel for the night, the last night before we all split up and go home. And the the hotel has one of those glass elevators, and we go down to the lobby to say bye to everybody. They were getting a drink at the bar, and um, and as we're coming back where we're riding the elevator up, Larkin's in the elevator, like that sad, like slow-mo waving at everybody, and tears are running down his face. And I liken it to that that feeling when you're at when you're leaving camp and you've gotten so close to these people you didn't know. You know that exact emotion, right? Yep. Like I knew what he was feeling. I was like, dude, I got to I got to keep this going. And so um, I mean, I could go on on different tangents of everything.

SPEAKER_01 19:48

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 19:49

That was it was linking these things together. Um, and so it's like, man, I want to create this little opportunity for Larkin to kind of expose Larkin in a way that people may can say, hey, I don't know attach to this, but ultimately we were gonna meet new people, get ourselves in positions that maybe we could be exposed to new experiences. And I'm gonna get that feeling of seeing Larkin do something really cool for the first time. Larkin's gonna get that feeling of meeting new people and forming new relationships. And while all that's happening, he's not even gonna realize the network that he's being exposed to, the opportunities he's being exposed to, and his whole mindset is gonna shift in the way he approaches his life and the way he goes about the rest of his life based on these situations and these strategic and intentional um moments that we're creating.

SPEAKER_02 20:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 20:46

All in the goal to help make him a better person.

SPEAKER_02 20:48

Absolutely. Because she said something we were talking a couple weeks ago. The reason why one of the biggest reasons you're doing this stuff with him was to teach him how to build relationships in a network. And that really like stuck with me. I was like, I've never really thought about that. You know, and it's you know, to me, it's so important. That's what I try to do. So, like, why not teach your kids to do that? Like you said, in a moment where like they don't even know what's going on, they're just having fun and meeting new people, but they turn 18. Look at everybody they know now, look at the network that they have in their back pocket. Like, he's starting off life way ahead of all of us.

SPEAKER_04 21:27

Yeah, well, that's my thing too. It's like I'm it's it's like I just feel as being a dad. Um it's my responsibility to look back at where I made mistakes to where I wish I had done different. And obviously he's got free will, but like, can I coach him and and can I approach every lesson that I give him, not in a way of don't do that, is you'll be glad you didn't do that because and like try to give a little bit, and then so for me now I f I find myself I'm not that totally. So I got you type person, but I find myself allowing him to do certain things that I know are gonna fail just so I can say, Hey, you remember when I told you this and this, this okay, yes, sir. Like, because I'm needing him now. I'm trying to build trust in him to want to listen to me. Like to need to listen to me, to not be defiant, and to understand that it's like um only gonna benefit him. But also try to teach him, we did something fun this week. Um, you know how you have these you have ideas, like you lay in bed and oh, it'd be cool if I did this, or I wish I did that. And then I think that's like a version of a dream or a desire, and most of the time it's too tough to follow through on. And it could be something small, and so things die. And so, like, if it comes to like maybe it's a business opportunity, but for us this week it was as small as trying to make somebody smile. So at his school, there's this teacher, and every morning when you pull up, the way the carpool line drops off, there's like a crossing that some of the older kids, when they park in the parking lot, have to walk through, and there's music playing outside every morning, and this guy has like the stop slow sign. And every morning he comes by and he's playing this thing like it's a guitar. And we joke about him, and we, you know, we make and we say stuff, and um, not like a like a driver, like we'll say stuff about him out there, you know, parking lot cowboy and just different stuff. And so I was dropping him off last Thursday, and I'm like, dude, what if we get him a I'm gonna see if I can find a guitar made up of stop sign? That's where the idea started. And where it ended was me ordering a guitar off Amazon, and then just on the back, I put a stop sign on it. So he's playing the guitar when it's somebody in, he just flips the guitar over and it says stop sign. And so, like, I'm excited, I'm like, can I get this here like today? Today, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:46

What's that same day delivery?

SPEAKER_04 23:47

Yeah, was it possible? But I could get it. It was Thursday, I could get it on Friday. So we got it on Friday, we're all happy we get the thing. And so yesterday, Monday morning, you know, we were driving through the parking lot, and I've got the guitar, and I pull over and I'm like, hey man, I got you a surprise. And he was like, What? And I like handed him the guitar and he's like, No way. He's like freaking out. I'm like, dude, you bring joy to us every day. Like, I want to bring joy to you. And it was funny because we were going turkey hunting that evening, and Larkin, when I picked him up from school, he said, You know, Dad, maybe since we did something good for somebody today, God will do us a favor and give us a turkey. And um, I guess we should have bought the guy a nicer guitar because we didn't get a turkey that afternoon. But um, so then I'm all excited yesterday morning. I'm like, dude, I don't see this guy with his guitar. He wasn't there yesterday. I'm like, dang it. But then my wife texts me today and she's like, Larkin gave him a guitar pick this morning when he was going through the line. He was like the most excited guy you thought we had given him the world. So, like, just teaching little lessons of like doing some kind of thing that it doesn't have to be like life-changing. And I think that's the same way in business too. Like, you don't have to give them a million-dollar bonus, just do something to say, hey, I I notice you, I care about you.

SPEAKER_02 25:00

You're spot on, spot on, because I I think a lot of people miss that because I I preach it a lot. It's it's the small things in life. Everybody tries to hit that home run in everything that they do, and I think that's and they get exhausted because they're swinging, swinging, swinging, swinging, and they feel like they're never doing anything. Well, let's let's start small and chip away. And you know, that's accomplishing things, or like you said, it's you know, making a difference in your life or somebody else's life. It's give them a gift. We do the same thing for our employees all the time. Like it's and a lot of people, and everybody's different too, on how they feel appreciated, or what they get value out of. Some people it's money because some people just want that bonus. They don't care what else you do. Some people do just want a phone call and say, Hey, how are you doing? You good? Or somebody wants a special guitar and make them laugh and smile. And that's your job as a leader to figure that out.

SPEAKER_04 25:55

I think it's a very tough thing as a leader to figure out because it's an important thing to figure out what drives everybody, and I think that's said a lot, and it seems very easy. But what my hardest thing, and this isn't just in business, this is in how I we go about inviting somebody over for dinner, whatever that looks like, every facet of my life, is learning and accepting that not everybody views things the way I do, and is going to be as intense about it or have the the expectations that I have. And so it it's a little bit for both ways for me. It's like, okay, if I want to do something for Jared, man, it would mean just as much to him if I just did this little thing as if I tried to do this big thing, but also um knowing that like money drives you or time or all those things, and then just using that to build the the environment that that they're that they need the most. But from our friendship thing, it's like um dang, why do I put so much effort into some things that we do and then other people don't? So like I've had to and this is going a whole nother direction, but I've I've kind of I've laid back so much on my social life, and I find so much of my joy in Larkin, and honestly don't have much more time for anything else than that. And so it's just easier. Like Larkin's my dude, man. Yeah, I can count on him, he can count on me. Actually, I don't know that I can count on him. He uh he leaves me hanging a lot. We went turkey hunting the other morning, he left the bullets in the side by side. Um, what else would we do this week that he left me hanging on? He's left me hanging on a couple of things this week that I'm like, dude, what are we doing here? What are we doing? I thought we had a partnership here, man. But back to lessons, it was like I had this route, like, because with Larkin, Larkin's stomach ain't the best at 5:30 in the morning. That's whether we're fishing or we're hunting. So every morning as I'm getting my stuff together, I'm like, AirPods, toilet paper. Like I'm trying to get everything together for me and Larkin. And then so I do this, like I nail all the, typically I'll forget one of them. He'll look at me like, where's the airpods? I'm like, ain't got and then I'm ill. I'm mad at myself, but I slightly take it out on him. Not slightly, I pretty much take it out on him. Like, dude, like if I got to think of everything, like the least you can do is get airpods for you. I've got everything, blah, blah, blah, blah. And so the other version of that, when I'm like, so we're we're turkey hunting and I get the decoy set up, and it was like perfect. Like this hand comes out, Mally just right in our decoys, and I'm like, this is great. Maybe she'll bring this Tom right out behind her. So I lean forward and I grab the gun and uh I checked to make sure the bullet's in there. There's no bullet. I'm like, oh, and I go to, I'm like, okay, I'm like, we don't have any bullets, Larkin. What did you do with the bullets? Because I always put them back in my turkey vest. He looks at me, his eyes are big, and he's like, And they were in a side beside in the in his cup holder. I'm like, damn, we ain't got no bullets. So um I ended up going out to get them. It was your fault, though, yeah. And so I feel bad. But my thing with him is it's like, dude, I got to do all this. I'm thinking about you and this and this. The least you can do is help me out on this. And so honestly, that's our biggest lessons that we're working on with him right now is think beyond the moment, son. And and maybe I'm asking too much from him in some of this stuff, but maybe I am. But if he gets it sooner, then so what? It's life-changing. Yeah. So it's like, dude, don't think about do you have your shoes on right now? And that's the first thing you need to open it. Like, like, do you have your AirPods? And so, but yesterday morning when we went turned, he's like, All right, dad, I got my airpods, you got my airpods? Yes. I got toilet paper, is what he said. And I was like, he's like, You got you got bullets? And I'm like, Yes. So like you as a parent, I'm sure you can you you react, you're you're you're ill, your tones bad, and then I lay there later on regretting it, like, dang, should I have been that harsh or what if I hadn't? But then you never know that intensity if it made the the difference to trigger, okay, maybe I need like to them, maybe I need to think a little deeper. Yep. And I relate that a lot to to work too, is like I respect and I appreciate the guys that work with us so much. And I'm not that guy who walks in and yells and screams or anything like that at all. Um I think it can definitely be seen when I'm ill and frustrated. But my thing is, is that judging that line of having that tough conversation and how to have that conversation in a way that you get the effect you need. That they don't shut down. And there's like there's one guy that he's like my right-hand guy, and I love him so much. Um, and we finally gotten to know each other that I know him, that like I'll say things, and I used to be, oh my god, I hope that didn't turn him off or make him mad or he's gonna throw the flag, you know. Right, and now I can tell where I'll give you an example. We had a conver we had a meeting this week, and then um, and so I couldn't sleep, could not sleep the night before last. So I sent them an email at like 3 a.m. and I'm like, hey man, um, I feel kind of bad for some of the things I how I said some of those things, or and how I think some of the things I said were taken. Um and if thank you for sticking up for them, and if these things are things that you value or inspect, then I I got your back on that. Um, so I'm sorry if if that if that's rubbed you wrong way anyway. And then he messaged me back that morning, hey, I didn't take it that way. I see where you're saying, like, um, I think there's something there's I think there's there's definitely room to grow there. Yeah. Okay, you know, and where like sometimes where I turn where I would be, where it'd be like, I'm not listening. This is crap, this guy just don't get it. Now there's certain people that I know I can push a little bit, and they say, Okay, you're right. Maybe you're right. I don't like it. I didn't like to hear it for the first 24 hours, and yeah, it pissed me off, but you're right. Right. Um, and I need that too, obviously. Me too. Um, I was talking to my mentor yesterday about some stuff, and he was kind of I said, Hey, hey, hey, don't sugarcoat it. I called you for advice. I'm not gonna be mad at you. I'm not gonna be mad at you. Tell me what you're thinking. Um, so uh that's another thing, too, that is we're way too early in the process for Larkin, but um knowing kind of the three things that that changed the trajectory of my life or relationships of all forms, um experiences, but mentorship and mentorship being the biggest one, um, I I don't know who Larkin's mentor will be. Larkin don't know who that will be. The mentor that's in my life did not come, I didn't go looking for him. You know, he um it just kind of happened, and so I know the more people Larkin exposes himself to, whatever that be. And that mentor, you know, I think that you might have a fishing mentor, you might have a business mentor, but like my true pillar person in my life, his name's John Hare, he's lives in Charleston, South Carolina. John's my guy for fatherhood, for for life, we just he's my guy I go to for those things. Um because he's got an 18-year-old, well, not oh my god, Jake's not 18 anymore. Jake's in his 20s. My God. Um he's got, you know, so he's already with a son who has similar interests to Larkin and and things like that, you know. Um, but then there's other people that I look to, but my thing for life is if I if I'm into it, I want to be around the best. And I try to find a way to earn a relationship with these people that how and my very first thing with anything is how can I bring value to this person? What does that look like? How can I introduce value to prove that it's not just a handout situation that I'm trying to get?

SPEAKER_02 33:40

True. And I think a lot of people mess up too, is they're afraid to introduce yourself or ask people for certain things. And that's one thing I've learned too, is that you know, I I used to think that I wasn't worth anything, or like, why would anybody give me a time of day? And but I started just asking and and started talking to people. Next thing you know, they're pouring into you, and you're building relationships with people. And I that's number one thing I see that really holds people back is they're afraid to step out of their comfort zone and make those connections with people. Um, and I think that's why it's so cool what you're doing with Larkin. It's I mean, the stuff that you're teaching him, it's irreplaceable. Um, and like you said before, like you said, sometimes you think you might be too hard. I don't think so, because he he can take these experiences in two different ways that you're doing with him. Like he could take it as a fun. I'm just hanging out with dad, doing this cool stuff and never take it serious, and then just be a spoiled kid. Or he can take and say, Hey, dad's showing me really lessons, he's showing me work ethic, he's holding me responsible to things and showing me that, hey, we get to do all this stuff, but we gotta do all this behind the scenes to make it all work. Like, so that's where you you being stern and holding the line, it's gonna make the difference of which way he goes. Because like people get opportunities all the time. I say that all the time. Everybody's God hands out golden tickets to everybody. Are you willing or had did you or were you willing to open your eyes and see it and take advantage of it, or did you throw it away?

SPEAKER_04 35:17

And making sure that you're in the position to take advantage, that you're that you're right, you're you're ready for that opportunity. But back to the being stern thing, too. I think the thing though, as any father, you see your kid do something and you see yourself and your kid, and you're like, oh, that's kind of makes you proud. Then there's times where you see your kid do something that is like his confidence that is beyond me. I'm like, dang, I'm so glad he's got that quality. I'm proud. Right. Like, I look up to Larkin, like, and I say that like just as serious as I can. But then there's that time where his mom asks him to do something or he does something, and he responds in a smart, short-tempered way, just like I do, and I'm like, that doesn't make me proud. Like, so he's watching, right? And he's watching all the time. And he may be hitting some of my you know qualities that are positive, but he's picking up these bad ones too. And so when I watch his temper at times or his re reaction to things, I'm like, dang. But at the same time, like I can't walk a perfect life all the time. And I can't like the and if you're gonna this is not an excuse, but when you go about things the way we do, and that is a lot of stuff going on with a lot of demand, and when that um comes responsibility, oh side story real quick. Me and my wife, my first job out of college, we went on this cruise with my boss and his wife at the time. And I'm very um anxious person, like we've got to make sure everything's right. And so we tried to be like overly anxious, and the night before the cruise ended, we went and closed out our account to make sure we were good to go because we didn't, we were I'm impatient, I'm anxious, whatever. So we're off boarding the ship the next day, and we go to get scanned off or whatever that process is, I don't remember. And like the little thing beeps, and they're like, Oh, you got to balance due. And I'm like, dang. So my boss is now pissed off because now we're holding him up, we're young, we haven't done something right. Well, all it was was like a tip that processed late or something. We had to like close out. It was a couple of dollars. And when I walk back up to him, he's red in the face and he's pissed off, and he's like, son, fun comes with responsibility. And I'm like, Yeah, I get it, but like I felt I was so pissed off because like I wasn't being irresponsible. I get that saying, and I can get that, but like it's so funny. So now I joke with him about it, and we've I've given him stuff with that like engraved on it before and everything. But um, but to to Larkin, yeah, fun does come with responsibility, and opportunity and access comes with responsibility. And I take it all very seriously, maybe oftentimes I take it too serious, but dude, like we got a lot of moving parts in our life, and um it takes a lot, and you've got to function at a different level if you want to keep up with it.

SPEAKER_02 38:06

You do, people don't understand it, and that's why I think it's so cool, and that's why I wanted to start with working because I think everything that you've done ties into that, and like that this is your grand big project of what you're doing with him and uh all your experiences in life. One thing you said earlier, I think it's so cool, and that's one reason I love this show is getting to know people looking from the outside, not knowing you, especially in the beginning very well, like to know like you didn't really grow up outdoors or really wasn't a hunter, like that blows your mind. That's of what the world you live in now. You're like, you're like, what do you mean? Like you never done that outside.

SPEAKER_04 38:43

Can you tell you something weird? This is my this is my fourth summer fishing.

SPEAKER_02 38:48

It's crazy. You would never think, I mean, like you're on TV, you're doing all this stuff with your site, like this guy's been outdoors his whole life.

SPEAKER_04 38:54

Man, when we go after it, we go at it 100%, like hardcore. But my thing is, and here's the thing I think you could pick up and relate to too. When I commit to something, I'm in it, and I obsess over it. I'm I'm just obsessing over information and knowledge, and I reach out to mentors, you know, I find mentors and all these kinds of things, and that shortcuts the learning curve so much that closes the gap on so many things. And so, yeah, I may only be have only been fishing and and stuff for four years, but it I've put in so much time that some people hadn't even committed enough to it. Because some people just go fishing just to say they're on the water. Like, I want to learn, I'm just obsessing it, and I'm still not great, you know, and I'm here lately, definitely not on the water enough to even stay on the fish or anything like that.

SPEAKER_01 39:43

Yep.

SPEAKER_04 39:44

But that's what I thought I like I had to be also, because I wanted to be known anything I do, I want to be known for being like good at it. And fishing was whooping my tail, man. It'll do it. My thing was I knew that I wanted to be, and this kind of ties back to the show too, in a way. I knew I wanted to be involved in the outdoor industry. I just didn't know what that was gonna look like. But I thought the people and the things about outdoor had good character, and I think that it was good lessons to be learned. And I regret every time I go outside, it can just be walking in the woods and you see something cool that you just miss. Yep. And if it's fishing and it's otters playing or whatever this is, like you just would not see it in your day-to-day. Um, but yeah, man, like I just I think that the the content stuff with Larkin was a way to tie it all together and not have to be a great fisherman. Like, I've never claimed to be I've never, I'm not here giving tutorials. Now, if you want me to tell you the best way I found to for gear or whatever for a kid, yeah, I've I've wasted a lot of money buying five things, you know. So I think there's an outlet there that maybe I don't take advantage of. But like, yeah, dude, like, but the other piece is I travel a lot and I have opportunity to travel. So being into fishing and stuff, it's like I just tag on a fishing trip as much as I could. True. And then I have and so like, man, we fished all over the place. And but like it's my only it's mainly just my unhealthy, financially irresponsible obsession of anything that I'm active in. But fishing has been my thing.

SPEAKER_01 41:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 41:25

Um, fishing, people will tell you that like I'm known for getting into something for a month or two and being out of it again, but like you'll hear my friends say, Damn, I'm surprised you're still with this fishing thing. That's weird, but I love it.

SPEAKER_02 41:36

I mean, I'm the same way. It's like I'm either zero hundred, there's no in-between with me. So we talked about earlier before the show. It's I'm off or I'm on. And fishing's done the exact same thing to me. It's something that grabbed me. Um, because my story's kind of the same. Like, I didn't my younger childhood, my dad hunted a lot. Um, never really took us. I think my dad took me twice. I did kill my first deer with my dad. Um, but other than that, like once we got kind of to the age to do that stuff, like some crazy things happened in our life and their life and their marriage and stuff like that. So he quit hunting and quit doing all that. So I was kind of around it, but I wasn't. I did kind of grow up watching bill dance and stuff like that. Um, my brother really liked the outdoors, but really didn't do a lot of it. So, like, we were around it, but wasn't around it. We would fish ponds around the house and stuff like that. Um, but actually, the reason I got in fishing is my wife. I was in business for a while and literally just working, working, working and losing my mind. And she's like, You gotta find something to do. And I'm not from here, so I'm looking around like, what do I do? Like, there's nothing to do here. Um, you know, I like cars and stuff, but like the car scene's not crazy here. So, like, what do you do? So I was like, Well, there's water. I was like, I like to fish as a kid, so same as you. I don't not gonna do something half-assed. Like, I'm all out. So, like, before I even bought a fishing pole, I bought a fishing boat. You know, like she's like, What are you doing? She's like, I thought you would just go to the bank and throw a lure. I was like, No, I'm like, I'm gonna learn how to fish. And like, I like I think I went out twice on the news and didn't catch anything. I'm like, okay, this is not good, and literally got on social media and just started messaging guides and meeting like the brassness of the world, the Josh Suttons of the world, yeah, and building these friendships with them. Like you said, I mean, I'm I I want to be around the best, you know, and that's who I'm gonna learn with. Now I fish with Josh twice a month, you know, and learn everything from the dude. Um, still got a long way to go to be even on that level. But hey, if I want to learn, I want to learn it from the best. And I, you know, I think you're we relate a lot in that way, and I think that's what just makes successful people click. So you've done all This stuff we we know the story of Larkin, how it all started. Where did Fox Hollow outdoors? Like, where did that come in play? Like, what like we know the the years, yeah. Like, where in that picture did you actually open up the business and actually say, Hey, I'm gonna do this, and you know, we got other stuff to get into, you got the seasons and stuff with it too. So, when did all that happen?

SPEAKER_04 44:23

Fox Hollow, I guess an aversion still is, but and initially was just my outlet, my creative outlet to do something fun outside of the restaurants. Like, I'm already creating seasonings and stuff that we brand and sell through the restaurant, and I have these relationships with the seasoning manufacturers and that kind of stuff, and so like cooking food that's all core of my life. And when Larkin shot his first deer, um, I think we actually we may have carried that one to get processed by local place, but maybe it was anyhow. One of our first deer, we decided I want to do this myself, I want to learn how to break it down and all that kind of stuff. Um, and as I was looking for like sausage seasons and stuff like that, like uh it was I was just trying to find I wanted something to make a little easier. So I was like, man, I want to create a breakfast sausage seasoning for deer meat or any meat that um like one tablespoon per pound and just do it that way, or that's what the measurement came out to be. Um but that's where it started, and I wanted a wild game season that we could put on deer and that kind of stuff because the barbecue world was like crazy, right? There's all kinds of barbecue season, there are a dime a dozen. Felt like nobody really focused on the guy who wants to process their own meat and helping them feel comfortable because where I felt was in that moment, I was new to it, I was insecure, wasn't well versed in it. And if I could find like this easy thing that I could have confidence in to give me confidence in producing this stuff, then that was the way I was gonna go about it. So I did a breakfast sausage seasoning, uh salt seasoning, and a wild game seasoning. Well, I called it wild game now. It's called the original. Um, but it's the same stuff. Um, so I did that, and like like any idea you think is oh, this is cool. It's cool to you, it's not cool to anybody else, you know? And so um that was that, and and I tell this, I'll say it sometimes. Like, my friends in Texas have ranches and everything. They've got a logo and a name for their ranch, and I was like, Well, damn, I want like a logo and name for my 83 acres.

SPEAKER_01 46:21

And so this is 83,000, like 83.

SPEAKER_04 46:24

I'm kind of tying all this together at a time, and so I reached out to the branding company that helps us with some of our marketing stuff for the restaurant and asking if they'd help me create a logo. And I started there, and then um I had a relationship with a girl very talented, and Charles, her name's Brie Drake, and Brie had made a post that she had some artwork that she was looking to sell, like some logo design stuff she was looking to sell. And so I started looking through the file that she had, and I saw um a version of what is now our Fox Hollow logo, and I was like, Oh, Brie, I love this, but can we change this? Can we do that? Um, and so when I did that, I was really excited about it. I'm like, oh, people are gonna love this redfish with antlers. Like, this is gonna be awesome. So I got t-shirts made and hats made for myself, but also it's like I'll sell them and dude, the stuff just doesn't like nobody it's so crazy because when you're starting out, and even like you're the it's been it's been really cool to see some of the people that support me, but um friends that I wouldn't expect. Absolutely. But then there's a lot of times like you just don't get supported a lot, and it's tough, and I don't hold that against anybody, but you just you don't, and it's tough. Um, and you'll find that you get supported quicker and more from strangers afar than up close. And um and it's awkward for me too, because when my friends are like uh hey, like, oh like you gotta let me get one of those hats. Well, that's cool when you're a big company and it can be seen as a marketing thing, and it's like, okay, cool, but when you're a small company and and do why I look at everything like a business, right? I may have like like it may not cause me not to get my mortgage if I give you this hat, but Fox Hollow as an entity doesn't isn't thriving. Yeah, so if I give away everything, everything that I get, then I don't have number one, I don't have anything to sell, and I've got to re-up inventory again, buy another 48 or 72 or 144, whatever that is.

SPEAKER_02 48:23

And that stuff ain't cheap.

SPEAKER_04 48:25

Yeah. So like I can't really afford to get it myself waste. So it's like, it's so funny because some people, oh, I gotta have me one of that. Like, well, websites on my my thing, like 35 bucks. Because you know how special, like how good it feels when I get that Shopify cash register ding, and I roll over and I'm like, oh man, Jared just bought something for me. That's crazy, and I really appreciate that. And I bought some lures from the Trout Trigger guy recently. And uh just because I'd seen them, I liked them, and I try to support like small businesses. And I think that I think that people in the local fish community can say that I try to support the guides, rod makers, um, bait makers, anybody. Um, I see like a small business follow me, I'll just go buy something from them, you know, and just just to try to support. But um Trout Triggers, they sent me a handwritten letter about our show and about stuff with Larkin, and that was cool. Um, so Fox Hollow was that. And then I was like, okay, I'm gonna set up at this outdoor expo that they had in Greenwood's just a couple years ago. And I had I it was spring, and I had like new turkey logo, or it's gonna be like February. So I got like turkey, I got Bree to make me a turkey logo. I got turkey t-shirts, and like I'm we're gonna kill it. This merch is cool, it's new, we're gonna sell it. And everybody at that thing bought fishing stuff. Nobody cared about it. Now I did sell a decent little amount of seasoning, but it was all fishing. I'm like, okay, well, so CA Richardson from Flat Class University, he's like my build dance. He was the person I assumed or consumed um content from. And him and I built a friendship. And but he had told me before, like with mirror lure, that you can, if you buy 60 of them, you'll they'll let them design. You can design whatever you want. It's not proprietary to you. They'll you like them. Somebody else can go buy the same stuff. But so I started getting Fox Hollow customs mirror lures done in preparation for that, for the Bellhaven Trout Festival and for the next, what would be the next outdoor expo. And so I got my hand in the tackle, and then I started like pushing some of my own soft plastics and airbrushing my own topwaters, and I realized really quickly that there's not enough margin for me to buy those. There was enough margin for me to buy things from mirror lure and then resell them to a shop. There was barely enough margin for me to buy them and then sell them. Right. Um, way too much time involved in the airbrushing stuff for what I had to be able to commit to it. Um, so I realized okay, Fox Hollow is not gonna be this kind of little curated brand of whatever. And I was like, I think it's just like I'm gonna let but Larkin love to get up, set up and sell at these things. So like I'm just gonna hold the inventory. I had the website was still live. When it sells, it'll sell. Right. And it's just gonna be this little fun brand that until whatever. But I was honestly just kind of letting it die off. And then last summer, when I started, when I had this idea, okay, I'm gonna get um, I'm gonna do like this video profile on Larkin. Kind of me and Larkin, but mainly Larkin, so maybe he can get some more of those Yeti type opportunities. When I did that, the production team that we hired from Florida Slider Media is actually um CA Sun, um, they kind of said, you know, would you be interested in doing a show? Like maybe we can help you, you know, pull it together and like, you know, I can help you with when you if you get some sponsorships and some some support, we can help you with the deliverables outside of the show to kind of make it worth their while and everything. And we started that thing, I was like, Well, we call the show, and I was trying to think, and then already had Fox Hollow Outdoors, it was already an LLC, already had all the stuff in place, already had merch, already had logo, already had website. So that was our jump-off point. Cool. Just to call it Fox Hollow Outdoors. And so now that is, you know, that that's what it is. I've kind of rebranded and added a couple of seasonings to it. Um, and we're still kind of dialing in how Fox Hollowors is delivered. Um, what I know is that cooking has to be a component of it because that is kind of my core identity. I think that's my credibility. I think that's where I come from. Um, but it will moving forward, it'll be this thing where Larkin and I are learning and experiencing new things and we're we're cooking it. You know, we're and it it doesn't always have to be a we a catching cook or a killing cook, but like we're just exploring food traditions and learning how to cook things as we experience them together and travel. Um, it's just gonna be this outlet that lifestyle sounds a bit like a broad thing, but it truly is, it's just our it's our lifestyle brand. And our lifestyle is outdoors cooking and travel. Um so that's what Fox Holly is turning into. And then so the whole merchandise, any apparel is just supporting of the brand, but the driving force I still would like it to get back to those seasonings to say, hey, this is quality stuff. This isn't some co-packed stuff that somebody just put their brand on. Right. This is strategically designed for its intended purpose. Um, it's coming from a place of somebody that you may not have heard of Foxhole Outdoors, but there's a lot of credibility in what I've been able to do food-wise, otherwise, as far as like I know barbecue seasonings, I know, you know what I'm saying? Um, so it's that. This is this is these out these seasonings that you can use because everybody loves a good seasoning, whether outdoorsmen or they're not, and everything that we do ends up coming circled back into somehow going on our next adventure. Um, it might as well be a nonprofit organization. Um but yeah um and then it's it's a it's a platform for Larkin to have fun for people to be entertained by him and his little antics.

SPEAKER_02 54:04

Yeah, and and I know we talked before that's you're building it for him, which is which is awesome. So you run multiple businesses, Sam Jones Barbecue, yep, Fox Hollow, Fox Hollow. And I know you do something with your wife also, right?

SPEAKER_04 54:21

Yeah, so my wife has um she has a couple of wellness and aesthetic clinics, um, alive wellness. Um location in Greenville, Tarborough, and Bellhaven. Okay. Um, but then we also have a hot works franchise in Winterville, right behind the restaurant and the Lowest Food Shopping Center. Um, never thought I would be the in the fitness industry. Um matter of fact, I th when my wife brought it up as an idea, I thought it was dumb. And but then I was like, okay, maybe this is our way to like spend time together and have a business together. And very quickly, she exited the the we had like a weekly phone call with corporate as we were going through the franchising process, and after about the first week, she never made another call. And I'm like, okay, well, this just became my project. Then I got mad and I was resentful. Um, but it is because what happens with Michael and his jacked up personality is whenever I'm intimidated, whenever I'm scared or insecure, I act out, you know, and I get frustrated, I get mad, and um and so but the Hotworks thing has been pretty cool. Um that was a really good opportunity for me to learn a different um way of business. Yep. Everything with Sam Jones Barbecue is my problem. It's my thing that I've got to find a solution for. It's my ideas from the marketing side of things or what we're gonna do now. Everything's like there's no playbook. I have to write the playbook and it's an every evolving playbook, right?

SPEAKER_01 55:48

Yep.

SPEAKER_04 55:49

The cool thing this corporate deal is is like they're just pushing me what I'm supposed to do. All right, cool. You want me to hang it there? I'll hang it there. You know? Why don't you do this? Ain't my aim my deal. I'm just here to take their vision and optimize it. Um, and so that's been a really fun thing to God. I hope she's gonna throw that in my face that I just said that out loud. Um, but it has been it has been fun to do and see um a whole new way of staffing, a whole new way of business operations. Um, so as you start looking, okay, well, I run this this way, this takes that, you start to realize where you want to be at and what was possible. Um because number one, I never I never started my life wanting to be an entrepreneur. I you know, I then there's nothing wrong with not being an entrepreneur, but I thought my job was um my parents had normal nine to five jobs. Well, my dad was in the funeral business, so it was kind of sometimes it was a five to nine, um, like 9 a.m. Um but hey, I just thought I was gonna my my true goal was to work in commercial construction or potentially work with like city government or something so I could have like strong benefits, and that was what the people that were around me that I looked up to, and that when I looked at their life, I'm like, ah, that seems cool. I want that. I want what they've got. That was my pathway to do that. And then the barbecue business came about unexpectedly. Um, because Skylight Inn and Aiden was my high school and college job, and when Samuel made the decision to open up Sam Jones Barbecue, he he called me and offered me the opportunity to be his partner in that. And um I st I didn't know what I was getting myself into at all, um, in good and bad ways, um, because it was the most awful thing I've ever done for a handful of years, and for the first 120, 150 days was awful. Um, but um so now it's just trying to figure out how to optimize because like I'm never satisfied, I'm never settled, I just won't want more and figure out more.

SPEAKER_02 57:53

Yeah, it's a good thing and a bad thing. It is. I deal with it every day. It's torture. It's you you look back on your, and I try to do that a lot as I try to look back on my life and say, and try to look at what I have accomplished, because I can get lost and realize I haven't done anything. So I try to really take time to look back and say, I'm living a life that I dreamt about 15 years ago. So don't be too hard on yourself. But I've always been that way because like my parents the same way, they it's not a five. My dad did open up a business, you know, later on in my life, so but it wasn't much influence to me when it came to you know mentoring me or how wanting me to be an entrepreneur. I just always knew I wanted more, and I think a lot of that come from, you know, when I was 18, I moved out. You know, we lived out out in Deadland and stuff in the country outside of Raleigh. I moved out, I was like, I don't know, I don't want to be around here anymore. So I never lived in the city before. I went and got me an apartment with my best friend, downtown Raleigh, and you know, started working in a gym, Gold's Gym in Raleigh, um, North Hills, okay, where all the rich people go. Um, and I and the same thing with me, is like I I forced myself into that world of what's possible, you know, because growing up I wasn't told anything, all any of that stuff was possible. I just started getting around these people walking in a gym in the morning and you walk by a Porsche, you walk by a Corvette, you walk by all these cool things, you you go inside and you see their watches on their wrist, and you see how they're dressed, and you start talking and you what do you do? And you're like, it's no grand scheme or any like crazy story that they tell you, like I just do this, and you're like, So it is possible, like that that's what you do to do that. Yeah, I own a couple restaurants in town. Okay, okay. How'd you do that? Oh, I met so-and-so. So it's so that's what opened my eyes to the world, and like it drives me crazy because like there, I think there's different types of people. They and I always say that, like, some people can walk right by that porch and not think anything about it.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:11

Or it's not even get their attention. Then there's a type of person that can walk by it and say, Well, that's cool, that's great, I would love to have that, but it's just not in my cards. Or it's that type of person that walks by it and says, I'm gonna have one one day. That's mine, you know, and it's just motivation. Like, I drive my wife crazy because we'll go to a resort and like I'm not even able to enjoy it because I'm looking around and say, like, how can I build me one? You know, like I don't I don't want to rent to come here, like I want to own the place on here and like come work and when I'm visiting and I'm working. That's how my mind works.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:44

Well, so I find myself doing that on the on a much smaller scale when I see somebody that has, you know, from a branding standpoint or a product, it's like, okay, if they're not truly producing that themselves, then I can do it too, or I can go get it, or whatever. And so that's part of the stuff. Like I'm learning and being able to teach. But the other thing, um, and helping to show Larkin is that like you want something cool, something that thing that might be out of reach. Well, buddy, it's not always just as simple as having a W-2 income and then going and purchasing that thing. What if you are able to purchase that thing and turn it into a business? Absolutely and now help let it pay for itself, or have something that you're already doing fall under the realm of that and it kind of helped with it. Um, and so uh, you know, like teach them the good stuff. Yeah, like if you you know, if you like sport fishing, then maybe you should look at my mind goes to like, okay, how do I buy a sport fishing boat and let it operate as a charter boat, and then I use it when I can, because I'm definitely not and that's not one of my dreams, it's just an example I'm thinking of. Because like the the thought of just having a charter boat and a captain and using it as a completely private thing, that's a that's a whole nother level, you know. Um, but just trying to, yeah, how do you but that's the torture of turning everything pleasure into a business, and then it's like, but I think I'm starting to understand that's just how I'm gonna work, and that is that is my pleasure. I don't like to sit still, I cannot sit down and watch. It has to be a very captivating show for me to even lay in bed and watch it. My mind just races and races and races all the time, and it's absolute torture. And I don't pray enough, but when I do pray, I'm just please find me a way to be content. Can I just be happy? Can I just but but but there's a big butt when you bite off this life of business is something that you've got to keep feeding. You don't get to just be content because when you get content, then everybody around you starts, they're ready to move on. If you stop, everything else stops and it dies. So if you like being content, this probably isn't the life for you. I'm starting to realize.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:01

Um if you if you're like to be content and comfortable, don't like it.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:06

And then and then you keep growing these things well, you know, with things in your life that you want. Well, then it just takes more to maintain those things. So you get yourself in this wheel. But I've I've I've had you know I have a conversation with my wife and I was like, what if we just stop stop? Like, what what would it look like if we just you know got rid of this, stopped doing that, and we just she's like, well then you'd be miserable. You would yeah, so like you're I mean, it's just a vicious cycle. So you just have to accept the fact that this is it. Stop. You there's sacrifice with everything, and this is a sacrifice is I'm I'm not a I'm not gonna sit down and enjoy TV shows, and I'm not gonna like it's just what it is. But um I think that when you have those realization moments in anything you're doing, it can totally shift your perspective and help you enjoy and maintain whatever you're on. My my mentor told me one day I was I was asking him, like, hey, you got multiple restaurants? Like, how do you sleep good at night, knowing that restaurant C is underperforming, or you know, your manager Jared's not doing good or doing what you gotta do, and you know, and it was that conversation and those. I was like, I'm just so tired of everything going wrong. Like, I don't get to do anything. All I do every day is just like somebody complaining or blah, blah, blah. And he was like, son, you've got it all wrong. You ain't in the restaurant business, you're in the problem-solving business. Today's gonna have its set of problems, tomorrow's gonna have its set of problems. And back to your other question about how do I sleep good, knowing that this one's not doing good. I have a plan in place. I have to know that I've got a plan in place and I'm seeing that plan out, and not everything's gonna fire at 100 at all times. But and everybody's problems of priority to them, and you've just got to strategically align those things and know there's a plan in place, but understand knowing that like you're not gonna outrun the problems. And I think that's what I tried to do for so long is I thought that if I if there if I didn't get it to a place there wasn't anything going wrong and everybody wasn't happy, then I wasn't felt like the goal was everybody's gotta be happy, nothing's going wrong. And it's just impossible to perfect that. So I just had to embrace that, like, you know, okay, this is today's problems, and I'll figure it out one out tomorrow. You know, it is. Um I had my um my second longest tenured employee. Um no, I'm gonna tell him about that's not the second longest tenured, it is my longest tenured manager in Sam Jones Barbecue, um, put in his notice yesterday. Um he's going to do a different career that actually stole him from that career when he took the job at Sam Jones Barbecue. Um and you know, I Michael, maybe two years ago for sure. Longer than that ago, I wouldn't have slept last night. Just would have tossed into what am I gonna do? How do we do it? But you know, thankfully we got a supportive team around us. And you know, this the thing that sucks too is like I think it's easier because some of those problems don't fall on me the way they used to because it affects more people. But at the same time, you know, I see opportunity in these types of moments instead of like devastation. Um so growing and understand, okay, well, that's today's problem is we got to sort through how we're gonna, what are the next four weeks gonna look like and what's gonna look like moving forward. Um, the opportunity piece I see is now there's other people that have been with us for a while and they've committed a lot, and now it's their opportunity.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:40

Absolutely, you know, and I think a lot of it goes back to are you doing what you're meant to be doing? If that's the case, God ain't gonna give you nothing you can't handle. He knows you you can handle it. It's done, it's already done. And it you just have to continue to plow through. Um, a good story that I have, you know, as we've been as we've grown our business, you know, I've got a lot of criticism for employees and stuff that, you know, in their eyes, I hold on to tight and I want to make sure everything's perfect, um, and stuff like that. Not in a bad way, more of a healthy way. Um, because, you know, obviously we've we keep our employees and they're happy, so they wasn't too unhappy about it all. Um, but recently in the last six months, I've stepped out a whole lot um and let things kind of we talked about earlier, blossom in a different way. And I had an employee come to me uh a couple weeks ago and said, Man, you should have done that two years ago. You just seem so much happier, you're a little bit less stress-free, um, and you're able to be creative again because you're not just consumed in the daily, so you're really helping the business because you're getting creative again, you're opening up other businesses, you're doing all this stuff. And I'm like, maybe, maybe I should, but at that time, just like before, yeah, you said two years ago you wouldn't better step, but you've made the plan and this the systems to get to where you are today. Because, like, I told him, I was like, Well, two years ago, me stepping away looks totally different than it does today. I've built the system, put the people in place to hold it. Because, like, what did we say earlier? When you step out, it comes a whole nother set of problems because things are getting done the way you want to get done. Maybe stuff's been sent to customers or vendors that shouldn't be before you got a chance to fix it. And at that time, I don't think I built a business strong enough and relationships strong enough to hold it if you made that mistake. You know, so like in my mind, two years ago, I wasn't able to do that. You know, it all looks good. So, like, what I'm trying to get to is just what you said. It's like you can sleep good at nights because you have a plan and every day you're tackling a plan and building a plan. So each day and each year just looks different on the decisions and how you act.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:01

Well, when you step away, my biggest thing about stepping away is like fear and that the people see that as abandonment or not caring or whatever. Absolutely. So that's really so for me. I wish I could say that I had this vision and I stepped away from the day-to-day inner workings of the restaurant because it was my leadership plan all along. That's not what it was at all. What it was was well, early on, um, I think that I was so resentful towards the restaurant because it was so overwhelming because I didn't know anything about opening a written restaurant. We just opened a restaurant and it was just wide open. We didn't, I'm standing at a I'm standing leading a staff in training, and I don't even know. I've never even worked on a restaurant line before, and I'm about to open my own restaurant. I've never even worked a drive-thru before, and we got a drive-thru, like there's a lot there, right? And another mentor said one time that sales will meet competency. And um, and we watched that happen. We opened up, everybody was excited, and we didn't do a good job. Um, some people had a good experience, some people didn't. And we had to then I what I felt like um, and I think after uh there's a honeymoon period for everything, but things dropped off, and then it was like trying to regroup and things. But I'd been there so much early on, long days of just a crazy amount of responsibility that you start to be like, I just can't today. And you see that problem, and you're like, God knows, I've already solved a hundred. I don't want a hundred one. I don't get any time. I'm gonna ignore that one.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:34

Right.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:35

And you make those little decisions, and those little decisions, and that stuff snowballs. And then a year later, when you realize those things that you've looked over have become problems, bigger problems, they're even harder to solve, and it's just like it's hard lessons, right? So I was so overwhelmed. I I do not what can I do in this business but not be like run the day-to-day shift? And um, my partner was traveling a lot, doing things on the road, and and I I traveled more than I should with him looking back on it now from those very um crucial days and early in the business. But um during that process, um, I had a guy that's still with me today, and he kind of started stepping up and taking bricks out of my bag. And he, when he came on board, not to say that nobody else wasn't helping, but he was like my guy. He was like, I got you. I, you know, you don't like doing that, I don't mind doing it. Or and we just locked hands. He was like my partner every day. We would open up the restaurant, go, we work side by side, and we would just attack the day together, and it felt so comforting to have somebody by my side. So that made it a little bit more bearable. But what was happening was he was kind of getting groomed to take my role there because then Raleigh came about, right? And then so I was focused on growing Raleigh. Well, then Raleigh needed more of my time as it got going, so Winterville had to stand on it on its own. Well, then Winterville, and then Raleigh's gotten to the place where it doesn't need as much of my time. So now, you know, I've got free time and I've had to step away, and it's kind of really weird when you you're not needed in the ways that you used to be needed. So, like, what do you do? You're just like, what do I do with my hands? Like it's kind of it's awkward, it's very awkward. Um, and so I find myself trying to do things and contribute in a way that, hey, I'm here, or I was able to do that for you. Um, it's very unfulfilling. I'm probably at the most unfulfilling point of my business journey, especially at least in the restaurant business side of things, because something that you used to be needed so much for in very ways, in the ways that you used to even be frustrated with it that you were needed for it, you didn't realize the purpose that those things gave you. And now it's like um almost like it's almost like you just need the people around you to be like, hey man, we're good. Like I don't hold it against you. Like, we got this, this is our this is our role, you got yours. Just man, just make sure, you know, make sure payroll keeps happening. Like, whatever it is, like I don't know where my value truly lies for people anymore sometimes.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:07

Yep, and it's tough. And I think a lot of people, like people like us, you know, people that thrive for success, they we complain about all the problems and the stress and stuff, but we also thrive off of the grind and the chaos.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:24

But I need validation, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:26

You know, yeah, me too. You know, and like you just said, you it's good to like just somebody come to me and say, hey man, we're good. The business is good, I'm happy for you. I'll let you know if I need you, but you do you, man. Like, like you said, just make sure like the money's where it needs to be and everything's paid.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:43

Well, because in I think small town crap talking environments, there's there's there's a whole lot of that it must be nice type stuff. And I don't um I don't like people to feel like that they're doing a that I'm having I have a hard time processing and accepting, okay, this is their role. This is their role and their responsibilities. By them doing these roles and responsibilities, that's not my role and responsibilities anymore. They're not doing me a favor by doing their job, they're doing them, their family, this is what they chose to do. Amen. They accepted the responsibility. It's very hard for me to accept that. Um, but it's also very hard for me to look back and realize that um although where I'm at my life was not a planned goal. It didn't come by mistake, right? There was still work ethic, there was still decision making, there was still how I showed up in every moment before today helped allow the opportunities for today. Um, but it's still very hard to realize and accept because my mind is still wired to be that I'm not producing and I'm not providing if I'm not hands-on and I'm not in the trenches doing it. It's very, very hard. It's very um very insecure with life and role currently.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:08

Yeah, me, me too. Um, I and I struggle with it. And like you said, what do you what do you do with your hands? Uh I don't know sometimes what you know, because like sometimes like you don't want to overstep. I deal with that a lot too, because you put people in place and it makes them feel a certain way if you do overstep them. So like it is it's tough, man. And like it's it's business and life is just seasons after season, everything's constantly changing, and it's kind of cool. We think uh a lot alike. You said something that really grabbed my attention because I believe the exact same thing, and I just never heard it that way. Ownership before equity, relationship, relationships and mentorship. Explain that. I know what you mean, but explain it to the audience of what you're talking about. Like, what does ownership before equity mean? What is what is that? So, you know.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:01

In today's world, everybody, you know, thinks they they're owed everything in a way. From an like I see that often that people think they're like, you know, because you have something, they should have it too. Um there's also um this thought process that like um it's hard for what I want to say here. I guess I'll get back to explaining ownership for equity is simply I just mean that like if you work really hard and even if you don't get you know a piece of the ownership of what you're doing now, you're gonna earn experience and you're gonna earn relevance to be able to have that opportunity somewhere else, possibly.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:48

Right.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:48

But what I mean that by that is that if you wait to act the part until you get the role, then you're doing it all wrong. Because everybody in business is looking like right now. I just told you one of my key guys is moving on to a different career. Well, somebody in that company had the opportunity to show up every day. And ownership doesn't mean necessarily equity. I mean ownership of the job, ownership of the whatever, maybe ownership, ownership, but treat it like you're an owner. But like everybody has an opportunity, dude. That's a no-brainer. That guy, he's my guy. That's there's no question who I'm gonna promote next, you know? Um, and that's in how you show up and present your own personal problems, your all those things. And so ownership before equity for me just means like prove you want it, prove you're about it, take ownership of something, do the extra thing, whether it's the extra step, the extra five minutes, do that, and the opportunity will come. Um, and as I look back, um I think that's how I got the opportunity I did, um, because of how I carried myself when I was at Skylight Inn all those times. And it was Samuel has said it many times. He was advised to find a partner, and in his mind, there was no question who that was gonna be. And so that was from having ownership, you know, and before equity. Um but also like when people want a piece of everything, just you got to show why why you deserve it, why it's worth it. And um, and outside of that comment, I think that's a lot of things too. People say, Well, I do this, you know, I think I deserve that. Everything it is, whether you're talking to another company about a partnership or whatever, how are you gonna bring value? What does that value look like on the backside to make the equity worth it? So that's my I guess I'd I was I kind of lost track of where I was trying to go with that to start with. But the simple terms is how it's just you know, dress the dress for the job you want, I guess.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:48

And whatever you're doing, be 100 at it. Yeah. One saying I like to say, if you're a fry cook, be 100 or fry cook and you won't be a fry cook very long.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:57

That's right. But also because it's and I've tried to tell people this before too, is like, don't look at just because you're saying you work, okay, say you're a fry cook in college. Right. All right. Well, you're probably if you're in school for something else, you're probably not going to school to be a fry cook, and that's fine. But somebody might ask me how you were as a fry cook. And the things that I'm gonna tell them have nothing to do with cooking fries and fried food. It's gonna be your attitude, your dependability, all these things. Did you go above and beyond in that job? Because all these character traits are just a reflection of how you handle whatever it is you're doing, not that.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:40

Yeah, and that's what being 100 is. Yeah, it's not it, it's not like you said, it's not maybe cooking the best French fry ever made. It's how are you showing up, you know, on a daily basis to do your job? And what extra are you putting in? You know, that's what I look for. I have three people in my business that are my go-tos. Couldn't do it without them. And but they've come in at certain times in the business life where I needed that piece. My wife was one. I've been very blessed. I never had to worry about the back office. I talked to other people in our kind of industry, blue-collar industry, that's her biggest struggle is them dealing with the books. I've never had to do with it. After that, we hired her sister. She stepped in. So I've never ever had to worry about a back office. My money is taken care of, things are taken care of. I've always had to focus on operations. Second piece was I was in a daily grind on the road all the time, still running service calls myself. When we first started, customers call me all the time. I noticed that I might be heated or aggravated, and I might come off to a customer the wrong way because I shouldn't be answering the phone. So I hired somebody to take that off my plate. Customer relations. That came out. And then I noticed, okay, well, now I'm busy with all this other stuff. I got technicians calling me all the time and I'm biting their head off because I'm stressed out, it might shouldn't be biting their head off. So I hired somebody to come in to manage my technicians, they're my three go-to's. And they allow me to free up and do other things because they took that off my plate. And they are also those three people just keep on taking all right. You don't want to do that no more, and you shouldn't do that no more. So I got you. Um, I'm gonna go into something real quick that's really means a lot to me, and it's something that men hate to talk about. Okay. Mental health.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:21

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:23

Um, because it's something that I've struggled with from a kid. Um, really, as a kid, you really don't know what's going on. You just know you don't feel right, and sometimes you you know, you don't fit in, or things just aren't right. Um, but getting into business it's kind of hard to explain because like at first you said you're addicted to the grind or whatever. So like the first three years, man, I I could probably felt better than I ever did my whole life because I was so distracted. You know, it was I wasn't worried about too much. I was just grinding, getting customers, fixing things, hiring people just in a daily, just not really worried about much, just grow, grow, grow, grow, grow. Um, and then things kind of just like you said, kind of, you know, you have a honeymoon, it kind of settles out. I don't know, it was about four years ago jobbing down a road, straight up panic attack. I didn't know what in the world it was. I thought I was having a heart attack. Pulled over to Bojo in the parking lot, couldn't even speak to my wife. I was able to call her, but all it was is next thing I know, she called 911. My heart rate was like 220 when they got there. So about I couldn't even swallow or breathe or talk or anything. I've had four or five cents. Um learned to deal with that. Um, but ever since then I've just been off mentally, health-wise, anxiety-wise. Like it it does something to you. I know you you mentioned a little bit about that. Um, so I wanted to dive into because I think we all deal with it, especially men. I think men deal with it a lot and they don't talk about it, so it gets a lot worse because they're not open up about it. Um when did it when did you first notice it with you um with with anxiety or yeah, so for me, thankfully it's never been like a pride issue about talking about or anything.

SPEAKER_04 1:23:21

I think what gave me so much was being in business, and there's just certain things that you can't discuss with, you know, you can't vent down all the time. There's not a form of that, and I probably do that sometimes more than I should. Um, but you can't vent down, and then there's just this overwhelming responsibility of the decisions that are you may make and how they're gonna affect it, and then um just there were some things like the way uh some things that were happening and some decisions that were you know possibly being made that were that I felt that I was ultimately gonna have to to to answer for.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:05

Correct.

SPEAKER_04 1:24:06

Um and it was overwhelming to me. Um, and then in that moment, because of leadership and everything, and business ownership is a very, very lonely place, um I had you know, my marriage sucked too, and pretty much, like because I felt lonely, and when I was home, I wasn't I wasn't present. I was present in my problems, not in whatever. And so I couldn't do anything right there, I felt like I felt like very misunderstood. I felt um it was just not fun. Like nothing was like life sucked. Um, it was not very fulfilling. And at the time, um, if you knew me a few years ago, you know Michael Letzworth loves nothing more than a natural light. I love a cold beer. And um, I still do, they're just Mikelabulcher NA's now. Um But I man, I finally, I, you know, my wife was like, you need mood stabilizers and you've got to like your anger or whatever, like this is ridiculous. And I'm like, I don't think like I just feel misunderstood and I'm overwhelmed. Like if I could just, I honestly felt like if I could just be accepted and supported a little bit, I'd probably be okay. Right. But I didn't know how to manage any of it. I went to a psychiatrist, and the psychiatrist said, you know, I don't think you need, I don't think you need me in medicine. I just think you need to change some of your habits. I think you need to to reduce or eliminate alcohol. I think you should consider exercising and practice mindfulness. And I was like, dude, that's not the answer I need. What I need, what I need you to do, I need you to tell me that you're calling Walgreens and you're getting whatever prescription you think I need that my wife thinks I need, so we can just put this to bed. Right. I'm not here for like life like changing habits, forming things. I'm here for meds. Give them to me. And um, and I wish it was that easy too, you know?

SPEAKER_03 1:26:00

Right.

SPEAKER_04 1:26:01

And so I left there, and uh, I got to tell my wife, and I'm like, he says I don't need medicine. I need to do these shit. That you aren't honest with him. You didn't, you know, like I'm like, oh my God, here we go again. Like I'm I don't know what to tell you. So that so life went on the way it was, and was still dealing with these things and you know challenges with the business. And mind you, so COVID, this was all in the middle of COVID, by the way. So this was like 2021. Um, and so I was just overwhelmed, dude. Did not know how to handle it, wasn't emotionally or mentally, maybe mature enough. I or maybe it was just my first lesson in some of these challenges, but um so finally it was December 31st of um of 2022, and I was just dude, I was just overwhelmed. Um I was in my deer stand. Larkin and I had been squirrel hunting that morning, I think maybe, and I was in my deer stand and I was like, dude, I'm just gonna like it would be real easy right now just to take this rifle. And um and like I could just this could I could just I don't have to worry anymore. And um, and as I sat there, I started going through like, all right, how do I how do I make sure Larkin knows I love him and how can I strategically have things to be left for him? And then I was like, then I like so what the what what why? Why why would you do something like this in this place that you it's like sacred ground to you? This in this very spot was where you have so many memories, like why would you do that? And so I knew in that moment I had reached a a a point that I'd never like thought I could get. get to. And so it just so happened in the timing of it. This wasn't like a New Year's resolution thing. I was like, this is scary. And I'm going to, I guess I'm going to listen back to this therapist thing. I'm going to because what he was telling me was that my anxiety and my depression, that alcohol helped fuel those things a lot. And I didn't see how that was because in my mind I just like to drink beer. It didn't present accountability issues in any area of my life. It wasn't like a thing that I got angry with on or anything like that. It was just a routine. It was part of my routine. And so I gave up I stopped drinking because I just like it was dude I was when I tell you I was at rock bottom like I was at rock bottom. Like it was and and when you get to that point and you're willing to go that far problems become a little smaller too. You know it's like okay all right I'll let me try at least try this I can always go back to plan A. You know? Yep. And so I stopped drinking and that's not an instant gratification. That's not like you don't just say you get one week out and it's different. And I don't know what the day mark was but I committed to it and it wasn't intentionally to be like a a long-term thing possibly but I just knew I had to do something and I was that committed to something changing because I was I was going to not have anything that I had anyhow if I kept on down that path. Right. Because of what of like yeah so man finally make my head started clearing up and I was like oh I feel better like I'm more clear. That problem that just completely overwhelmed me or would have I I found myself solving things and working through challenges in a way that I couldn't imagine before because I would have stirred on them all night. I would have been overwhelmed by them and I found I finally found a way to take that plan that I talked about earlier and put it in place and live with it. My head became so just become way more clear and I viewed life so much differently. So this was 2023. Larkin was five years old um so he had so he had just shot his first turkey April of 2022 shot his first deer fall winter of 2022 um and so here I am coming off this where the majority of my habits and my daily routines were wrapped around you know social drinking and and those kinds of things. And with a clear head I started realizing too well that may not be the best example for him to see all the time. But my head was clear dude and I started feeling better. I did start exercising finally in 2024 and that helped me a lot mentally that served a really great purpose in my life. What exercise did for me was show me what I'm capable of. It helped me push the limits and do things that I didn't think I could do. It helped me reevaluate how I look at something like you know a a chore of haul and Christmas stuff upstairs seemed like avoidance but it's like or I'll wake up at five in the morning and go carry heavy sandbags and uphill and do this kind of stuff. This is just an opportunity. This isn't a chore. And so just really trying to read things but that mental health piece is really what ignited my I was always like Larkin's always been my number one but it ignited how I was able to go about spending my time with him that was where how I got into fishing.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:31:30

Because he was watching Caroline all out again he said you want to go bass fishing and uh so I'd reached out to scooter Lily to go bass fishing and it didn't work out. The bass weren't biting good or something he asked if I might went for like a mixed bag. And so we went out of Aurora and we went like fishing in the river and I had some memories my grandma had a trailer at the river until I was like five or six or I went with her until I was like five or six and uh so I remember catching croker and I remember like just I just it started like bring back these memories.

SPEAKER_03 1:31:59

Right.

SPEAKER_04 1:32:00

And I was like well dang man like I don't drink anymore. Feeling better like what I want to be outside how are we going to go about this? Let's just start fishing. And so that's what was the real kickoff was and that was where that passion lied and then it was then I didn't know anything about it. So I just started hiring guides. And you know I still don't I don't have a network of friends that I fish with like I don't have a friend that like calls me up. If I if I generally go fishing with somebody I got to pay them unless it's me and Larkin. Yeah um but uh me and Larkin fish a little together a lot and it became our little thing to learn together. I still remember the first day we caught a fish on our own I remember the first day we caught our own two man limit together like I remember all these things. But back to the mental health piece is that um I did find that even though alcohol did not for uh did not have an apparent problem in my life it was a problem in my life. It was it affected my anxiety it affected my depression and it's a a poison to me because I'm obsessive right because when I come home I'm not going to drink just one I'm going to drink a handful of them and it's and my mind stays it stayed in this fog all the time. And so I finally got to experience life with clarity. I didn't I guess I started drinking beer here and there like 18 19 but I drink like two or three Bud lights and then it was really in college where I started that if I'm sitting around if I'm doing something it's just one after another after another and so in a way I was never truly clear minded in my whole adult life. And so for the very first time at age whatever that was 35 I'm now getting to see life through a clear lens make decisions over a clear lens. And it's crazy because that's when opportunity started happening for me. And it is and I don't know that if it's because I was just able to pro I don't know why. I don't know what the singular thing was but that's when my life changed. And um and I knew that um and then as I'd see Larkin do stuff and I'm like dude I almost missed this and you just like it's a different thought process like everything's different now. And I regret to have gotten there but I'm thankful I did because it changed my life man like I I I don't um I drink NA beers because I still love the flavor man. I love the ritual I love that kind of stuff. But man it's just not for me. No and it's not hard for me to not like the thing for me is like I really truly feel like and I know some people that there's an addiction to alcohol and I um and I'm not making light of that at all. For me thankfully because of my personality I think I've kind of rationalized it more it was more of a habit and more of a routine.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:50

That's the things with me is habits.

SPEAKER_04 1:34:51

And so I'm thankful I'm thankful that it was able to be be that role in my life but it's one of those things where like it's not a people like do you mind if I drink around I'm like dude go at it I'm so thankful that you're able to have a beer and it not mess with your head but what's between my ears I'll never do it again.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:11

Yeah. Ever. I can throw anything away we talked about earlier. I mean I smoked for 12 years and throwing out the truck one day I never smoked another one. My brother struggles with it daily it's just everybody's different like I said it was more of me a habit I started smoking because I worked in uh served tables and where do you take a break? Everybody I got jealous of everybody getting a break I'm like what the hell do you get a I mean I get like one you get like 10 because you get a smoke break.

SPEAKER_04 1:35:33

I'm like I'll just start smoking. And it was a way to rationalize time. You get out there and instead of rushing back in it's like my breaks going to be as long as this is.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:41

Yep. And then when I started doing this type of business on a road a lot I mean you get bored driving it it was it it felt good to smoke a cigarette because it was something to do. It kept you awake you know it it was it even back then you I it tasted good so it you know it was something but I want to touch on something real quick is our our story so much like man it's crazy it's actually kind of scary. But when I was 19 I found myself with a shotgun in my mouth um and I decided like thank god I didn't do it um I got into fitness really heavy really heavy I actually did some bodybuilding stuff in my earlier years um but you were talking about fitness man you know I I tell that to people all the time and if you want to change your life and you don't know where to start one thing first thing is go to God. Second is go get in shape.

SPEAKER_04 1:36:39

Go get in shape because it's going to just be willing to commit to it and discipline to it I don't do it now and I own a gym but it teaches don't go in there wanting to lose 10 pounds. Just go in there committing to the process and it will change you.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:52

And then the 10 pounds will be so much discipline like I learned like because I mean growing up I was not because our parents weren't very strict on us at all. So like discipline and dedication and stuff like that like we didn't have it you know so I had to teach all that to myself and I'm thankful to fitness that it did. It was luckily I fell in love with it and it felt easy but I just learned I mean I I tell people time and I when I did body I did six years of eating chicken and rice. You give me chicken and rice now I'll throw up but at that moment it was easy but the dedication and the sacrifice that teaches you I mean I gave up everything I gave up partying I gave up all of it because I literally just focused on and I didn't have anything else going on in my life at the time so it's like I'm fitness. And it was like I said anything we do or 100 in it. I mean like fishing that's my thing now in business it's I go fishing it's not I don't it drives my wife crazy like it's fun for me it's an outlet but I'm trying to become the best too at the same time and she's like why do you care? I was like I don't know I was like I just have to be the best so like it it's kind of it's kind of weird.

SPEAKER_04 1:38:01

Um well that's kind of what the people say sometimes like oh if they didn't bite at least you're out there I'm like no no I could have been doing something else. Like I'm here to wasted my time you know and now I'm mad at myself because I suck. I don't I don't I'm unfortunately unable to enjoy anything that way.

SPEAKER_02 1:38:17

Oh I stopped dude I stopped a long time ago of asking the only person that asked how their day was is is Josh because you know um I don't I just tell him I hate him um because how good he is but um but it makes me feel good you know what made me realize good about fishing was is when I started fishing with Josh heavily and we would struggle I'm like okay I don't suck as bad as I think I do. Right. These guys don't catch him every day as guys and like we caught two fish. You know like you know last time I went out I caught six by myself you know like perspectives a lot everything you know and I tell people that all the time that with anything you get around the best before you start judging yourself so hard. Like see them work see their struggles get off social media these guys are posting old pictures of what they caught six months ago for marketing. They didn't catch it today they called that Benito last summer you just don't know the difference. That's true. One thing that you said that's very unpopular in society and I kind of want to dig with you because you got me thinking about it because I'm on my kids all the time about it. Get off the screen get off the screen get off the screen it's bad for you bad for you you said screen time can be good. What do you mean by that?

SPEAKER_04 1:39:35

Well I wouldn't Larkin you know there was a time yeah that he was watching the oh my god the awful child stuff there's the more that just like burns in your brain I still it wasn't screen time but my little sister she used to watch the um oh my god I can't remember what it was but I still hear the songs in my head because back then you know you had like you were cool if you had the minivan with like the the tape player or like the screens or whatever um the wiggles the wiggles hot potato hot potato oh my god so like well yeah we went through those phases with Larkin too but you know he found outdoor TV on his own I didn't even know what out Carolina all out was when he started watching it he started watching that stuff and he obsessed over like the taxidermy videos and this different stuff and so he now will watch the dumbest stuff like I hear him scrolling I'm like dude turn that off you're right in your brain I completely agree I completely agree that there's things that kids can get exposed to that they don't need to be exposed to what I will say to some of that is is that life exposes the kids to things that we didn't get exposed to. So it's our responsibility and they I know they're still they're delicate and they not you know they can't comprehend certain things understand that but I can't control everything he's gonna get exposed to he's gonna go to he's gonna go to school and he's gonna hang out with a little kid whose parents may believe differently I do and what they're exposed to and that kid's gonna be talking about stuff I feel like my more my bigger job is to to define Larkin's character and to help Larkin know right from wrong and it I think exposure to certain things can help present things um but with the screen time stuff man like turn on anything and see if you can't hear about AI. It's a way of life now. The people that say why don't you go outside and play with it like I was when I was a kid well you didn't have any damn thing else to do. Yeah it was your only option yeah you didn't have anything to do and you didn't have some of the cool stuff we have now if we keep trying to live in the generations that before us then we're not gonna be prepared for the generations ahead of us. And so I think there's consequences to screen time but I'm never going to be that guy that's like oh I'm gonna let my kids play on two and and you may not agree with me and that's completely fine. I'm not saying I'm 100% right. I may find out I'm completely wrong and I wish I could retract these words but I believe there's value in the information that can be accessed um through the screens.

SPEAKER_02 1:41:55

Yeah you got me totally thinking because like you're you're totally right I mean if we if we take them off of the iPad and off of this technology well that's what is going to pretty much control everything that they do. So if they don't know how to use it and control it then Yeah and use that chunk to your advantage isn't it annoying sometimes when a kid's asking you a thousand questions.

SPEAKER_04 1:42:14

You know what Larkin does now when he's got a question? Siri Alexa or Siri or Chat GPT. Hey Siri what is the such and such of such and such dude so in my mind I am like he'll say well I'll say I don't know dude look it up but I'm this wasn't some grand plan but when I look back on it I'm teaching the kid how to problem solve for himself. Well and that's and that's gonna be problem solving I mean that's what is problem solving eventually he's gonna quit asking me and he's gonna short just like we do with other people they're gonna say they're just gonna go to that and they're gonna figure it out so I just think it's a way um and ever wondering like I'll tell Larkin hey buddy your new episode just released and he's like all right cool he'll watch somebody else he won't watch his own stuff but we're essentially using a screen to help create a a business also um so you're gonna tell them to get off of it but you want other kids to watch it. Yeah we're making stuff for kids and families and so but um I don't know so I just find I think there's value in them. I think I think to be that person that says like screen times are awful kids should go outside and play you're right we use our screen to inspire how we go out inside and play.

SPEAKER_02 1:43:26

True it's all about what you do it's how you intake it all and how you it's just like with anything I mean a drink and a soda I mean a soda don't hurt you but if you drink 12 a day yeah it's probably not good for you. Yeah you know but um let's finish off man I got some fast hit questions for you okay one of my favorites biggest sacrifice you've made my God dude so many of them right I couldn't answer that one either so that's one of my favorite questions.

SPEAKER_04 1:44:02

You know I just had this conversation with Larkin we did an interview with Pirate Radio last week and they was like what's your favorite such and such and he gets stumped and he's like feeling this pressure to pick his absolute favorite thing and I told him after I said hey buddy don't feel that pressure just say anything. Like it doesn't they don't have to you're not going to be condemned because you said your favorite fish is trout but you really think you love Snook better. But like in this one here I take that one to be I think that's a pretty deep question and I don't know what my greatest sacrifice is. I think that I think that maybe putting Larkin first um comes with sacrifice but I don't see it as a sacrifice.

SPEAKER_02 1:44:39

True I mean it's maybe I guess I guess it I mean it is a sacrifice but you you don't you don't see it that way unfortunately I don't think I can give you a fast round answer to that one.

SPEAKER_04 1:44:49

I don't know. I mean I don't think I could either so don't feel because I would tell I would I would hope that what however I answer that I don't want it to be very definitive and I don't know that I sorry totally got it hardest season of life early 30s. Okay same most misunderstood thing about success that it comes quick and easy and um it's defined differently by the person true like what you somebody may see me successful and like I don't see myself successful. I just see it as there was no other way. Yeah um but also people may think that uh people define success differently so I think that's challenging.

SPEAKER_02 1:45:31

We uh my wife has a family friend and she helps run all this stuff for my um wife's mom and she she walked up here before we started the show she said remember stay humble you don't got that problem with me I was like I'm I'm very humble like I have imposter syndrome like it's crazy like I don't even know like why I'm here half the time and what I'm doing so um biggest lesson fatherhood has taught you they're always watching especially dads because um I mean I'm not gonna say I I mean I had a good dad don't get me wrong um but not the best at at the same time but I watched his every move like he didn't pour into us a whole lot wasn't around a whole lot but dude I am so much like my father it is scary and I I and like I there's times I'm like that's not good I mean I'm like I gotta check myself at the door real quick I'm like I'm acting way too much like my dad because like I just watched for one of it was is my dad gave a lot of his attention to my brother a lot um because he was older or whatever and um so a lot of it was I was just trying to get his attention more than anything but I would watch everything and like I got a lot of good things out of it but a lot of things I say a lot of the greatest lessons of my life is to watch what not to do you know like I even with that with my father I would watch what not to do you know like hey he did that and that did not work.

SPEAKER_04 1:47:06

So so I'm don't let me get past what I'm about to say and not comment on that. But um yeah I think Larkin is like I tell you when I like this is not like a like a like a a visual stunt like Larkin Larkin's the only thing in my life that I love unconditionally like I love that kid. Even when I'm pissed off with him I just want to be with him. And so I forget that he's eight years old because of some of the stuff like I expose him to and we're we're with so I end up cutting jokes just like I'm cutting a joke with one of my buddies and I say things to him and he he's aware of innuendos and different things that maybe he shouldn't be and like and so I regret sometimes like maybe I am maybe I'm oversharing maybe I'm fast tracking him and I'm stealing some of his innocence but um but they're always watching and then the other piece what was the last what did you just say that and I said I don't want to forget oh my God what'd you just say because I knew I'd forget well I was talking about my father about the um the even the bad stuff no it's the last little tagline you said oh man my mind we both forgot it's scary it's scary the way like I'm scaring myself these days I'm forgetting stuff and my wife's even brought it up there's just so much going on up there man and I don't think there ain't nothing wrong with this it's just so much maybe I'll think of it again or something funny it's cluttered it's just cluttered um what gives you peace I think I know the answer but what gives you peace seeing Larkin happy like it sounds so funny like it sounds so cliche that I keep referencing him but like um peace is seeing fruits of the vision fruits of the effort and it coming together you know like man Larkin taking his BB gun and just going out into the woods by himself to go shoot at stuff that I mean I guess technically NC Wildlife he may be shooting at some stuff that's illegal. I don't know but I can't wait for that day that he walks back up. He hadn't done it yet he hadn't come back with anything in his hand but I know how I know how happy that kid's gonna be but like just sitting back and saying man the days that I mowed this empty lot and dreamed if what it would be like if if Larkin could have a treehouse in those woods to see now the pond dug right behind the house and to see him living it the way I envisioned it man that's that brings me peace.

SPEAKER_02 1:49:28

Yeah absolutely so what gives you peace what keeps you up at night sustaining it. Scary in it was a podcast you know um it keeps me up at night because man like I I've been in some dark places and in my life and and the slumps pretty bad and I'm terrified to go back where I was like terrified. So like yeah I think

SPEAKER_04 1:50:00

See, for me, I'm not. You're not? Mm-mm. It almost be a relief. It almost be a relief because like I'm no happier now with anything materialistic and responsibilities than I was before. Um I think mine's freedom. I think that that scares me a little bit, the lack of flexibility and freedom, maybe. But um but less responsibility would always seem like a relief. What is I have people that work with us that are committed to us. Right. You know? And they may, I don't think they see it as transactional, but like I've had some of them say, hey man, like I got this other opportunity. Like, man, I love you. I hate to do it, but like, and then and we figure out a way to make it work, right? That's another thing where Larkin's so special to me is because like he can't quit me. Like, I guess he can like he can walk away, but he's like my one guy as long as I treat him right. My wife can leave me, my my key staff members, my staff can leave me. Like he's my guy, man. And um, I so the thing that keeps me up at night is am I doing enough? It used to keep me up. When's the person gonna call and shatter my world and say they're they're leaving or whatever? Um, so it's just a lot of responsibility. It is keeping everybody providing because like you're responsible with a lot of people. I want to underpromise and overdeliver. True.

SPEAKER_02 1:51:24

How can people find you? On social media and stuff. How can they how can they follow all this cool stuff? I know you're just on Waypoint TV, the last episode of that. So what are all these different avenues?

SPEAKER_04 1:51:36

Um my Instagram is just Michael.letchworth. Um, foxhollowoutdoors.com is our website. Um FoxHollow Outdoors NC is our YouTube. Um and then Waypoint TV is where the shows are on demand. Um now you can get to anything through anything there. Um our episodes are on our website, our episodes are on YouTube, and then we've got some little we've been trying to try our hand at putting some other videos out there on on YouTube. Man, that's such a discipline, such a commitment. I don't know how these influencers do it, man. It does tough. Um, because I'm walking a line of trying to enjoy the moment and be present, and then so we're having to we have to split things up now. It's like this is an opportunity, we're gonna try to film some stuff, this is an opportunity, we're just gonna have fun. Um, but um the websites, Waypoint TV is a great place. If nobody's familiar with it, I've what I've learned is that a lot of people when I say Waypoint really are like, what's Waypoint? Um, Waypoint for me was one of the first places I could find and consume outdoor content, and it's free. You can download the app on your Apple TV, you can go to their website, but there's just a ton of outdoor um programming that is on demand. They have a channel you can watch live, but you know, you can get your hunting, your fish and your fix there, and so we live there, we'll be there for the foreseeable future. All of our episodes are there. Um, but yeah, our website, if you're interested in the seasoning, but I'm very responsive. So if there's any questions, I mean I'm all the time answering pig cooking questions or seasoning questions or anything. Um, gear, kid gear questions. So um we'll love people to follow along and and hope for some opportunities to meet some new people and experience some new things.

SPEAKER_02 1:53:20

Well, season one just finished right on waypoint when season two starts.

SPEAKER_04 1:53:24

So season two, man, I we're that's still kind of to be determined. Um, you know, this this stuff is not what people may think it is. Oh, I'm sure. It is not like it's not just like somebody like when you have a TV show, maybe for some people, and even for them, it's not, they've just got bigger sponsors. Um, it looked like they maybe you've made it or somebody's paying you to do it. Like, this was very expensive for me. Yeah, I'm sure. Very thankful that we had people help support us to absorb some of it. Um, so for me, is trying to find value. I thought it was very important to to take this step of the first season to put it out there to build the kind of the brand and the and the exposure for future opportunities. Um, I don't know what season two is going to look like yet.

SPEAKER_02 1:54:08

Gotcha.

SPEAKER_04 1:54:09

I I don't know if it's gonna be a full on other season, if it'll be a brand partnership where we do some content series like that, or I have to regress to just some general short format YouTube and that kind of stuff. It will really depend, you know. My mind, this thing's over with, right? Because the last episode just aired. But we're still getting discovered by new people. And so that audience and that um appreciation for what we're doing is still evolving. Um, so I think a lot will determine um once we get to iCast this summer and stuff, um, because we're still trying to define what Fox Hollow is. Are we a fishing show? Are we father show? Like, where are we? That's the hard part in what we're doing too, and finding support is there's not a clear category. Yeah, they don't know. And all these brands, they need categories. You know, they want you, you're in this, this community, you're in this, you're in this, and uh so it's very hard with what we're doing, and that's fine for me because all I want to do is if it inspires somebody else to just like be be happy with their kid, then that's fine. I don't have to, I'm not doing it for sponsors, I'm not doing it truly for income. But if we're gonna keep doing it at a level we're doing it, we're gonna have to have some kind of support to do it.

SPEAKER_02 1:55:22

It's got to fund itself, yeah. Yeah. Um, but this has been awesome, man. Uh, this is what the show is all about. You know, people everybody talks about building a business and having success and stuff, but the secret is can you build a business? Can you build a life, be present in a life, raise kids, be present in that, be happy? Can you do all that at the same time? That's the secret. And, you know, that's why it's called below the surface. I mean, that's why we call the show that. I mean, because that's all that stuff. Everybody can do what they see, they can build that business, they can have that success in what everybody sees. But what's what's all this mush going on? And man, you're you're probably one of the best examples that I've I've had had opportunity to talk to in a while that does all that at the same time.

SPEAKER_04 1:56:09

It's weird because I don't it's it's very awkward for people to say things, even like you just said, because people see me in a light that I don't see myself sometimes. So that imposter syndrome comes out, but also um the people that have these desires to try stuff, like you don't have to knock it out of the park. And it doesn't have to end the way that you thought it had like if it doesn't go the exact way you envisioned it, like that doesn't mean it didn't happen, like just evolve. And it's a slow process, it's a very slow process, yeah. Dude, I've been in I've been in the barbecue business for 23 years. 23 years. Just in the last couple of years, does anybody really know my name to associate me with Sam Jones barbecue? Yep. Honestly, you know, and I've been but I've been on the road, I've been cooking, I've been doing now. It's different, you know, when the place is called Sam Jones and you're in the kind of the shadows, and I've always kind of been the little brother to Samuel and um along the days. And so I've had to make effort and intentionally step out on my own, but it was really through some other like doing other business stuff and branching out that I found my identity. I've the the restaurant association, I think, gives me a little credibility, but my identity is far, far from that. Yep. Um, but like it does take time, dude. You know, Fox Fox Hollow was started four years ago. Um, and that is an example of like when you're doing something, when a side hustle's a side hustle, it's easier and it's not financially dependent, right? Because when you when you bite it all off and risk it for the biscuit, you ain't got no choice but to grind. Right. But when it's a side hustle, it it you get excited, and that excitement wears off. It's easy to let it die. And so um just I appreciate your kind words, but yeah, man, no, man, I I mean it.

SPEAKER_02 1:57:55

I I really do, man. And um, you know, you're somebody somebody to look up to, and you and a lot of people, a lot of more people need to tag their stuff to you, man, because especially when it comes to stuff you're doing in business, stuff you're you know, doing with your with your kid, um it it it's powerful and it's you know, it's very positive.

SPEAKER_04 1:58:15

It's not for attention, but awareness.

SPEAKER_02 1:58:18

Yeah, because I I struggle, you know, between, you know, because I've missed, I mean, they're eight and seven, I mean, they're eight and six and about to be nine and seven, and I've missed 90% of their life, you know, and now I'm trying to play catch-up. Um, and they're girls at the same time. Like, I mean, I it was just me and my brother. So like I'm trying to like connect in this different way, like I'm trying to figure it all out. So that's why, like, man, I give you kudos on what you're doing, man. Keep doing what you're doing.

SPEAKER_04 1:58:47

Uh I don't want to drag this out, but I do want to say one more thing that I forgot to say during the mental health stuff and during the analyzation of life. One of the things I did was kind of eulogize myself, and I didn't love every component of what if if people are standing there, be honest, not sugarcoat it. Right. Oh, he was a good guy, you just had to know him. Like, you know, not those kind of things. Um making an impact, and that was what really kind of helped shape my desires for for Larkin and for um my life. And I figured if I could just be a good person to him and be a good person for him, then other things would be seen the same way too.

SPEAKER_02 1:59:25

See that? I can see that. It gives you the a reason, purpose.

SPEAKER_04 1:59:29

Yeah. If I'm true, doing everything's right around him, then I'm doing things right everywhere else, too.

SPEAKER_02 1:59:34

True that.

SPEAKER_04 1:59:34

So got anything else? Man, you keep giving me an opportunity. I'm gonna keep thinking of something to keep talking. So we better tie a bowl on it somewhere.

SPEAKER_02 1:59:41

Well, good, man. Well, I appreciate everybody tuning in. Always you can find us find us on YouTube, um, depth over image on Facebook below the surface as we continue to grow this thing and having guests like you. That that's what helped grow this. So I thank you for the opportunity to thank you for the opportunity to come on here, man. It's a blessing. I really appreciate it. And hope everybody has a good day. Appreciate y'all.

SPEAKER_04 2:00:02

Good day, guys. Thanks.