Reality Check: Inside America’s Next Top Model

We watched so you didn't have to... this week Aidan and Noah tap into the Netflix documentary that has everybody talking about the 2000s hit that had us all asking "wanna be on top?".

They leave no stone unturned, recapping the contents of the documentary and diving into which cameos they enjoyed the most, where the former contestants and judges are now and how the show is viewed from a modern lens.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:13

Welcome back, note takers. This is Aiden.

SPEAKER_00 0:16

And this is Noah Aaron.

SPEAKER_01 0:19

We are back with another episode. And this week we are getting into the documentary that I see all over my social media feed, but I mean I do have a reality television podcast, so I think that's par for the course. But we are getting into reality check, America's Next Time Motto, which was released this past Sunday on Netflix, and has really taken the world by storm. I think America's Next Time is one of the most you know, prolific reality series there is. And we got Tyra herself speaking about it. She's, you know, synonymous with the brand. I think it was eye-opening. At least for somebody who's, you know, familiar with the show and the T you know got into a bunch of those interviews over COVID with Oliver Twixt. You know, I feel like there were still some new and enlightening things people I wanted to hear from that I did. So that was it was a cute viewing that I was looking forward to.

SPEAKER_00 1:05

Right. Well, I feel like over COVID it was mainly just the Jays talking shit on on Instagram. Um or wherever they or wherever they were talking shit. Um, so it definitely felt interesting to kind of get more voices in there. Obviously, the Jays were here, but we also got to hear from like Nigel. We got to hear from uh some EPs that were involved in kind of the creation of the show. We got to hear from Tyra herself, which is a pretty big deal, as well as some of the girls from the show. So it was a good mixture of voices and you know, perspective. So I it definitely, as soon as I saw the trailer for this drop, I was like, ooh, this is different. I was like, this is they're they're giving us a little something here.

SPEAKER_01 1:46

And I will add that it's kind of Netflix's. I was like, this seems to be their approach with these documentaries, three episodes, about an hour long each. You know, something quick and digestible you could throw in a day. I will say it was part of them to release on you know a federal holiday. I feel like a lot of people were home engaging with it during the day.

SPEAKER_00 2:02

That's what I did.

SPEAKER_01 2:05

So cute little moment, and I think it definitely I would say it focused more on like the earlier seasons. A lot of the clips and such were for I would say from like the first you know, eight. Yeah, ten cycles or so. Like people from the later on cycles get mentioned, but it kind of just it's more in a context of like, oh, the show has kind of fallen off. So it's kind of talking about the show at its you know peak and premiere, so to speak, and you know, the castmates talking kind of represent that, but I don't know. I would have went for a different you know, selection of good girls, or there's some girls I definitely would have loved to hear from. I love to hear from a jade, a nana, pretty much more people from Psycho 6. I love Psycho 6, but you know, Eva, yeah, yeah, one of them, like the kind of quote unquote success stories, if you will. But I do know that E is also working on something, and there might be even like a third documentary in the work. So I know there are a lot of conflict of interest. I know that's why Janice Dickinson couldn't appear. But there are other documentaries and things in the work. So I know specifically for Janice, I think she's contracted for I don't know if if it's the E one, but it's one of these other ones.

SPEAKER_00 3:09

Right, and it's kind of weird because like on one hand, on one hand, I'm like, fuck Janice Dickinson, but on the other hand, I'm like, I kind of did want to hear about I just kind of did want to hear from her, especially in the context of this documentary and should we say the lack of accountability being taken. It would have been interesting to see like how she would have approached it. Like, would she have taken more accountability than the people we heard from, like from the set of the show? Um, or would she have kind of like done exactly what they were doing, kind of trying to shift the blame around? I don't know. It'd be interesting to see. Well, obviously, it's clear from the intro that you and I both have history with Top Model. I mean, as does pretty much, I think, anyone our age. Um, but yeah, let's go into just kind of, I guess, before we get into the meat and bones of the docuseries itself, let's go into kind of our experience with Top Model going into this. Um I don't know for I don't know, kind of like if we we probably could have had similar viewing experiences because I know for me, I was definitely watching Top Model as a kid. You know, yet again, yet another reality show that I probably shouldn't have been watching because it wasn't appropriate for me for my age group. But also like Top Model was not like I never was watching Top Model like actually like live while it was airing. I was always my experience with watching top model was it would be on a weekend or it would be like during summer vacation when just like any random day of the week, you know, I'm not me and my siblings wouldn't be doing anything. Me and my siblings would sit down and they would do those all-day top model marathons where they would air an entire season marathon. Yeah, they would because they would air an entire season or cycle as they're they were called in one day. So me and my siblings would literally sit down, we would like be in the living room the entire day watching an entire season of America's like top model. If you think about it, it was kind of binge watching like before the streaming era existed.

SPEAKER_01 5:08

Being able to catch a marathon was lit. I would be so hyped. Yeah, TBT Marathons. But no, I also have a similar marathon experience with I remember specifically Jazeline season. I think that's like I want to if I had to guess it's psycho late, but I'll look it up. But I just remember watching that one in the marathon. I wanted to root for her from the beginning, and then she won. I was very excited about that. But no, I remember watching like some of the earlier seasons like live as they were happening, definitely like psycho 2 or 3. Because I remember a lot of like the faces and whatnot, vaguely and Eva for sure. Like I remember like my family being watching, like my mom was into it, but I would didn't care that much. I think I was a little too young, didn't care about it. I was like, what are these girls yelling about? But I definitely enjoyed the competition aspects of it. I think as a kid I was very drawn to not really like the fashion aspect, but I'm like, why are they walking on this floating runway? Why are they running around this foreign country? It was just like enough chaos to get drawn into. Consistency, you know, there's a nomination at the end, there's some stakes. But you know, it was a show that I think I definitely engage more like post-COVID or older, rewatching some seasons, really getting into it. I think my more most enjoyment of it was like I did like a binge of like maybe season one to seven a couple of years ago. Yeah, that's fine.

SPEAKER_00 6:26

That's fine.

SPEAKER_01 6:28

Yeah, but I don't even familiar with the brand.

SPEAKER_00 6:31

Right. Watching, and I definitely the funny thing is, I really haven't watched Top Model much since I was a kid watching those like marathons. So that's why going into this, I was a little bit like, oh my god, like I'm not gonna like they're gonna be bringing these girls in, and I'm not gonna remember who they are, I'm not gonna like remember like cut the context behind things. But like literally, what's so funny is that as they introduce girls and then start like started throwing like showing throwback clips from the earlier seasons, it was like each girl they introduced, like just like memories just like flooding back, like as if I watched it yesterday. It was crazy. I was like, Oh, this is some deeply embedded shit. Yeah, like this is some deeply embedded shit. I was like, Well, that's so-and-so, and she did this, and they made her do this fucked up thing.

SPEAKER_01 7:16

Right. I thought they would have like you remember Blind Amanda. I don't know why I thought she would be there. She seemed like she would say yes to it. Well, I loved her talking about her child was conceived during 9-11 to the second. Like, what do you mean?

SPEAKER_00 7:31

Damn, that's that's kind of a gag. That's kind of a gag. I'll say if you believe in reincarnation, that's somebody. Um but yeah, I feel like, and you know what's funny because you mentioned that like with kind of the old like the later model top model seasons, how they didn't really give us much of that. We didn't really get to sit with anybody from those later seasons. What was really funny to me was like at one point in the documentary they mentioned how like oh the later seasons got very gimmicky and they were like flashing all the like the wild gimmicks and silly shit they did. And one thing I will say is that the the Brits versus American season was like that was lit. That was so lit. That was that was a good concept. I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_01 8:14

I want to watch that. That's what I'm intrigued by. But you know, they were very gimmicky. There was college, the short season, that's when they finally did the All-Stars.

SPEAKER_00 8:25

Then they introduced like men and women.

SPEAKER_01 8:27

Oh, yeah. But I remember seeing like the commercials for British Invasion, like, oh, that's what they're doing now.

SPEAKER_00 8:32

Yeah, and I I know, like, in the very last like season or last couple of seasons, they did like they removed like the age limit, so they were bringing like older women as well, like women in like their 40s and stuff like that. Um I know they did that like near the very end. Like they like near the very end, they really like removed a lot of the brackets that they had prior like prior for casting.

SPEAKER_01 8:59

Oh, what if maybe that's the guy for cycle 25? She's gonna do like a golden bachelorette. America's next.

SPEAKER_00 9:07

I mean, she did say we have no idea what we're in for.

SPEAKER_01 9:12

I'd be here for that, but but they would eat better um house conditions. They they can't have the older woman in bust in a lot of not eating.

SPEAKER_00 9:22

I can't smoking cigarettes all day.

SPEAKER_01 9:26

Arguing over God knows what, arguing over God knows what.

SPEAKER_00 9:31

Oh my god. Um but yeah, let's let's move into you know the the hostess with the most herself, uh, Miss Tyra Banks, who you know, once upon a time was a beloved uh figure in the media, and now she's very uh polarizing, very controversial. Um, there's a lot of mixed opinions out there on her these days.

SPEAKER_01 9:56

Um I don't know if they're so much as mixed these days. I think the people mostly coming to the her defense aren't really coming to her defense, but are mostly being like it's not exactly fair to argue her own standards of today. But she's not really doing much to adjust, nor does she take much accountability overall in the documentary, which seems to be the settlement across the internet, and of course that we share. But you know, I I I I appreciate it meet some Tyra Banks. You know, I feel like she was so prolific throughout her childhood on top of top model, you know. Appearances on the fresh prints. I definitely remember her on there. We have life size. Tyra was that girl. I didn't watch her show as much, but I know she had the show.

SPEAKER_00 10:37

Talk show, yeah. Well, you know, what I find interesting about Tyra is that she really she really did do the transition from like supermodel to mogul, um, you know, to multimedia mogul. And like in hindsight, when you look back at her career, like it really was such a smart thing because like, unless like your Naomi Campbell, like you do, like as a model, you have an expiration date, basically. You have a shelf life. Um, because I mean, Naomi, she, you know, can work until the end of time. But for all the other girls, you know, eventually the industry is gonna stop checking for you. And I think when you look at the timing of Tyra's career, because like she was still like she was still a working model when she launched America's Ex Top Model, as well as her talk show. But kind of shortly into that, she made her big kind of retirement announcement. And she kind of, I think it was smart because she kind of retired from the modeling world while she was on top still. Um, and as she was transitioning into all the other forms of media, you know, she had her talk show. You know, she was she was, you know, in daytime. She was also in prime time with the reality show. And then she was launching all of these brands, all these products. She was getting into acting with, you know, some pretty iconic roles. She was doing, you know, life sites, like you mentioned, as a Disney movie. She was even in a fucking Halloween movie. She was doing a Scream Queen moment. Um she had her little moment where she went to Harvard. Um I mean, that wasn't the fall off, but right, but still, like she kind of really did expand out her brand in, I think, a way that at the time was very interesting and like new to see. But now like we're so used to it because nowadays, like everyone is a multi-hyphen, you know, like nobody no nobody's just doing one thing anymore. Like, nobody's just a model or an actor or a singer or a producer, like whatever. Like, everyone's like doing a bunch of shit.

SPEAKER_01 12:36

Exactly. And I think Tyra was essentially like a media company back in the day. She had, you know, her talk show, her independent things, her top model, and really was a brand herself. And it's almost like a media company that like failed to evolve and keep up because her venture since then, you know, I mean, hot ice cream, smile scream, Modoland, the book, like it's always been something just trying to make it happen. And yeah, I remember she's like one of those old companies that keep trying to keep up, and it's like, girl, ain't nobody going to Best Buy.

SPEAKER_00 13:04

I remember she had like at one point she had I think it was like that two-minute Tyra makeup or something where like she had like a few makeup products that she said were it was like for everyday makeup, and she's like, and you can do your routine in two minutes. And that's what I find interesting. And when you mentioned that she's kind of failed to evolve with the times, that's kind of like what I noticed because it feels like she's stuck in a certain era where like every single product has to have a gimmick, like rather than focusing on quality, rather than focus on good marketing, it's always like some like silly, like wacky gimmick, and like that doesn't really hit anymore, especially when like all these markets are so oversaturated with products, right?

SPEAKER_01 13:44

Especially in the beauty space, which is where she would lean on more given her experience. But I don't know, there's so many celebrity brands you have to show up like smart nowadays, but don't give anybody another chance. I mean, Courtney Kardashian kept trying until she got Lemmy, which I I think people use. Like I see them on TikTok shop and whatnot. We said it a couple years ago. I don't know if I still see them, but I think another part of that is like the host job in Hollywood, it kind of was like falling off. I don't know. I feel like with the social media evolving, talk clubs kind of falling off, random shows of like pretty girls hosting things. It's not really a job anymore, you know, like the Stacey Keelage of the world. They used to eat those roles up, but they don't really exist anymore. And I feel like that was kind of tired with bread and butter a little bit. I mean, she got dancing with the stars, but didn't they hate her?

SPEAKER_00 14:29

Yeah, no, I I can't remember it was I think because she did Dancing with the Stars and she did or was it Britain's Got Talent? She did one of the Got Talent shows. They hated her on there too. And I don't know, it's kind of like well, I feel like in part of it is that the standards have really gone down. Like you see, people talk about like um, I think it's comparable to like people talk about like how the celebrity interview has kind of died because these celebrities aren't being interviewed by like journalists anymore, they're being interviewed by influencers or glorified influencers. Um and I think it like you said, it's a similar thing with hosting, because I mean, really, like any, you know, anyone that's got the look and no substance can be a host of anything at this point.

SPEAKER_01 15:14

I mean, pretty much, yeah. And they seem to definitely go for like shock value, and also like celebrity casting and things like that. Isn't like Jamie Fox hosting shows and whatnot. I mean, Drew Barrymore has a talk show, so it's yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:27

Everybody gets to work now. I will say though, Drew Barrymore does like she's pretty like good in the talk show format. And I feel like Tyra, at least for her initial time, she was really good in the hosting format. She was really good in the in the talk show format. Like those did work really well for her, and she had a really great personality, especially for that era of those specific things.

SPEAKER_01 15:48

Right. Tyra should have just went like the QVC era or something, the like fashionable, like you know, older woman clothes. You know, like the catalog Cynthia would be in. I think she'd make a killing on those like Jesus. But yeah, I think she would have made a killing, do an HS0 or QVC or something, do a little some product lines, mind her business. But her and Stacey Rush could do something.

SPEAKER_00 16:10

Her and Stacey Rush could make something happen.

SPEAKER_01 16:13

Right? But now let's get to the the documentary. Because we what we open up with Tyra and this trench coat. Well, we don't open up with that. We open up with a bunch of clips and references to Tyra, including the Family Guy clip, where she turns into a lizard. And I cackled every time they showed that, because they put it in like two or three times.

SPEAKER_00 16:32

Yeah, and what's it's what's funny is that they showed shit like that, but then they also like when they finally did address like the Tiffany moment later on, like they made sure to like play it very serious, and like they had like they had J Manuel like being like, It's not funny. Um, but it's like okay, well, y'all keep showing that fucking family guy parody. So so maybe it's supposed is it is it's is it funny or is it not funny? Like, you gotta give us something here.

SPEAKER_01 16:57

You know what? We need more b-roll, so just throw in some random clips, some random TikTok skits, some random commentary. Because every five seconds we would get, you know, TikToker for three seconds, the family guy clipped, another TikToker, Tyrone headline, a lot lots of B-roll thrown in, which leads me to believe this was not shodily produced, but maybe, you know, the timeline was a little tight.

SPEAKER_00 17:20

Right. Well, and because you know, you mentioned that you mentioned earlier that Netflix has kind of like take like their kind of way of doing this, because we covered um fights camera action, the Jerry Springer story, in another episode, and that was also Netflix. And like you mentioned, they do really stick to this very specific three episode hour-long episodes format. And something I've noticed, like I noticed with the with the Jerry Springer one as well, and we I think we mentioned it in our episode, is that we felt like it could have been two parts, and I feel like this could have been two parts too. Like they really could have cut out a lot of the b-roll, trimmed out some of, and we'll talk about it later, but there was like some parts that were covered um that I felt like were silly and obvious and like self-explanatory that we didn't really need to get into. Um, and I feel like it really could have easily been cut down to two parts and it would have worked better. But like you mentioned, it seems like Netflix is very committed to this format they're doing for these kinds of docuseries.

SPEAKER_01 18:20

See, I disagree because I was kind of like, you know, wanting more, which I don't know if that means you know, diving deeper into the interviews, but there was definitely, I feel like, something left on the cutting room floor, something to get more from these girls, like or invite more girls. Like, I think they kind of trimmed it in. But I do like that that they gave space for like the girls to kind of have a few two episodes and like the castmates to share their stories, and the last episode was really about the hosts and like Tyra, the Jays, and Nigel, yeah, Miss Jay and Jay Alexander. Yeah, Alexander, yeah. Miss Jay Jay Manwell and Jay Alexander, Miss Jay.

SPEAKER_00 18:56

Yeah, the Jays.

SPEAKER_01 18:58

Um which I don't know, Jay was 6'5. I was like, you know, that didn't really show up on camera. I guess everybody tall. Are you already in these heels? I don't know. I was like, oh my lord.

SPEAKER_00 19:06

Right, you're all tall, you're all skinny, you're all in these crazy heels.

SPEAKER_01 19:10

Um and then Ken Mock is also interviewed and plays a kind of a role getting interviewed, introduced by Tyra as the king of reality TV, which I always hadn't heard his name in production spaces, but I was like, oh, they got Ken Mock to do it too. Which I knew he was like the boss, but apparently he essentially a lot of everyone is blaming, like, oh, that wasn't my production, that wasn't my thing. I have to introduce somebody else. So I uh I thought he was the big boss, but apparently he wasn't. Which I don't know if that was Moonvez, Julie Chen's husband, as I call him, but he was also mentioned at some point. So I know he was seeing the met in the network, maybe Raptor. But I don't know who's in charge, but TV is complicated. But in terms of like crew producers, that's who we get. There's no like cameramen or anything, no like random field producers. It's kind of just them at the top, and the on-camera representatives.

SPEAKER_00 19:59

Well, we also got Dawn Ostroff, who was a I think she was the president of entertainment at the time that they were to get her at UPN, yeah. Yeah, and um being Gothic white lady was running UPN? That's a yeah, we we didn't see we didn't see much of her. She kind of popped up like here and there throughout the three episodes. Um but yeah, we don't we never really saw that much of her, and we really never got like outside of explaining how she kind of participated in the in like the the show like getting picked up and everything. Um outside of that, we never really got much of anything about like her actual influence on the series as it went on. Like we didn't really get much of that.

SPEAKER_01 20:44

You know, I definitely would have liked to hear more of that, or just more like network back offense perspectives, what they thought, was it like a head, you know, talent Wrangler?

SPEAKER_00 20:54

Yeah. Well, because we kind of got that with the Jerry Springer one where they like we were talking to like several producers. We were talking to we were talking to the fucking person who's literally like their job was to go backstage and get these people on Jerry Springer like riled up before they go out there. Right.

SPEAKER_01 21:10

I like on the Girls Pod Wild documentary. We got the girl who was the kind of fluff, the guy to get the you know, get them ready. Like there's some interesting perspectives out there that I think they didn't capture, but they got the big fish, so that's that was important for marketing. We all tuned in for a reason.

SPEAKER_00 21:29

Right. I think the fact that they got Tyra is really what separated this from a lot of other, you know, exposes or docuseries or whatever that could have been done um and are being done. Um but yeah, the yeah, and so the girls that we got to sit with, I mean, we got a few of them, um, and they were kind of introduced throughout the first two episodes, and like they would kind of like have a moment, go away for a little bit, then pop back up. Um, I was I was very excited to see. From Cycle 1, Miss Ebony and Shannon Stewart. Like those two I was really excited to see because I was really interested to see what they would have to say.

SPEAKER_01 22:08

I loved Ebony. I was so excited to see her. I know we got Shandy, we got Ebony. I was excited for Danny Danielle from Cycle 6. Of course, that's my favorite cycle. But I I was hoping for a little more of the, you know, the Takara's and Eva, yeah, yeah. But they might be busy. Or they might just be like, well, I had a good time, girl. I don't know what you want me to say.

SPEAKER_00 22:30

Right. Or like even like I'm sure there's probably plenty of girls that they invited that were like, you know what? I've I've healed from this trauma and I don't want to go. I don't want to go talk about that. Yeah. And I think some girls are like, uh-uh, I'm over it. Oh yeah, or maybe there's some girls who have just moved on. Right. Or there are some girls who have maybe just moved on and like have this established like careers out like away from this, and they're like, I'm not, I'm not bringing, I'm not like reviving this and like getting my name back in the Google search engine.

SPEAKER_01 23:09

I mean, yeah, and then we had Whitney psycho 10 winners, like we had two winners kind of talk about it, which was interesting. And it was kind of like the plus size rep. I was wondering how the why Whitney there did she really like she's like I mean, obviously a lot of the plus size girls had a harder time. I thought Takara would be a better rep for that image, but I'm glad they had somebody to speak to that experience. I mean Kenya as well. They was bullying the hell out of Kenya.

SPEAKER_00 23:33

Yeah, what I feel like they kind of want. I almost felt like they were giving us like with Danny and Whitney. I almost feel like they were kind of giving us one winner who was a little bit more kind, I guess, and generous to the show. Because Whitney really, she had like her critiques, but overall she was kind of like, you know, oh, the show gave me what I have now, and yeah, and everything like that. While Danny was more of the winner who had like something to like something to really get off her chest and talk about and like express some grievances, right?

SPEAKER_01 24:04

Yeah. Which might be just for like Whitney has a plus size model, which might be just like, well, I'm just happy to be here.

unknown 24:10

Right.

SPEAKER_01 24:11

Also, a lot of the people the fandom says Whitney's winner was like, well, they need a plus size winner anyway. So maybe she feels she was locked into it. I was like, Well, I'm gonna take it.

SPEAKER_00 24:18

Right. Well, it's kind of like on it's kind of like on drag race for years. People were like, when are we getting a big girl winner?

unknown 24:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:25

Oh, they was doing that over there too. Yeah, they were like, When are we getting a big when are we getting a big girl? When are we getting a big girl?

SPEAKER_01 24:30

And then did they get one? Did they get one?

SPEAKER_00 24:33

Yeah, well, the funny thing is, um, because Ginger Minge recently won All-Stars, but they like her like all-star season, I think because of the strike or or something, I don't know what happened, but they like paused production halfway through and then picked cameras back up to film the remainder of the season. And the bitch went on Ozempic during the pause and came back skinny. So we still didn't get a big girl winner. She was she was a big she was still a big girl at the start of the season and skinny by the time she won. Not the producers like this is breaking, this is breaking continuity. I know because multiple girls went on fucking Ozempic during the break and came back skinny as hell. Like all of the big girls came back smaller. It was a little ridiculous. Wow. Hope they got I know them tailors were going to work. Them tailors are going to work. Um but yeah, was there um of the girls that we talked to, was there a specific one who you were most excited to hear from or most interested to hear from?

SPEAKER_01 25:39

I think probably Danny or Dion, because they were some of the more memorable ones for me who when they came on the screen, I was like, oh my god. Well, Dion took me a second, but is that Dion? And then they put a clip of her and like, okay, that's Dion. Because she had different hair on the show, she looked a little more mature with the makeup. Well, she looked good, they all looked good, they are still gorgeous women. I will say that 100%.

SPEAKER_00 25:57

Right. Right. Especially with everything they've been through. I know it's yeah. I mean, and these girls, I mean, in their own ways, they've all been through so much, you know. I mean, and it's not like it's not like the trauma Olympics to try to compare like who had it the worst. Um, but like, yeah, they've just been through some shit. Um, I was really excited to see and hear from Danny because I always loved her on her season. Um, and then especially just like with what she went through on the show with the dentistry of it all. Um, I was really interested to hear her perspective on that. Um, I was also with Shandy. I was surprised to see her, but as we got into her story, like it really like it brought a lot of memories back, and like I was like, oh, this is fuck, this is so fucked up.

SPEAKER_01 26:41

Um let's get into the Shandy of it all, because that was probably I would say one of the major drops of the show.

SPEAKER_00 26:49

Right.

SPEAKER_01 26:49

And that's I remember that being painted as like, oh, she cheated on her boyfriend, she got drunk and make a message. Right. But clearly, as we can see here in her recollection, she was too drunk to consent. Production should have intervened. Right with not not knowing the show and how young these girls were. Obviously, we were younger watching, it's like, oh, they feel so adult. But a lot of the times in the show, the girls are like 18 to 21 at most, maybe a few other, you know, 24 to 26 year olds, maybe. But a lot of the cast maybe like 19, 20, like university age.

SPEAKER_00 27:20

Yeah, like just recently out of high school, university age, just recently, illegal adults.

SPEAKER_01 27:26

Um probably not even just an age back home, which is another wild thing.

SPEAKER_00 27:31

Right. Well, and Shandy was one of those ones where that's like a whole like story and moment from the show that I had completely forgotten about. And then as soon as she came up and started getting into it, it's like the memories just flooded back. And I literally remember as like a kid just not understanding it because I was just too young to understand like what was actually going on. I don't know if maybe if older people watching like understood like how fucked up it was at the time, but like as like as a kid, I just took it at face value for the way it was painted on the show. Like, oh, she cheated on her boyfriend. That's that's bad. That sucks.

SPEAKER_01 28:09

I mean, I think society has also come a long way in terms of like consent. So like maybe it was like a bit of a generational divide kind of thing. Yeah, but I can see that. No, it was definitely unfortunate, and I think it was the the first of many deflections when Ken Mock and Tyra would just be like, Well, this is the producer's favorite line. Whenever in all of these documentaries, dark side of reality TV, you know, any of these Netflix documentaries, their favorite thing is, Well, it's a documentary, we're supposed to film what happens. That is like their go-to line, their go-to excuse. When of course it comes up again in this documentary, and then we have Tyra, you know, deflecting on like, well, I'm not behind production decisions, kind of trying to distance herself from the shiny situation, which is a major theme from a lot of the power players here, mainly Tyra and the Ken. But you know, the the lack of accountability for anything is wild when they could have easily like deflected on this like I don't know, production standard society. I don't know, or they can at least admit some fault and say that productions have come a long way since then. Because we see on shows now, they don't even let this shit happen. Like there was that clip on below deck where the girl was drunk, the guy tried to get in there, they shut that shit down, sent his ass on. I know there was this whole thing of Bachelor in Paradise. It's like accepted on TV now, there's intimacy coordinators and whatnot in Hollywood, even if Mikey Madison doesn't want to use them. So you know, I've had the you know, the the industry has come a long way too. Like they could have like blamed it on that, but they just want to be evil.

SPEAKER_00 29:35

Yeah, well, what really pissed me off about the whole thing was a like Ken Mock basically going in the direction of saying, like, oh well, these girls were told ahead of time, like we are going to film you the entire time, you'll always be on camera. And then he like went to this weird thing, like this weird distinction about like, or they went to this weird distinction about like how like, oh, well, it was like if you went into the bathroom by yourself, the like it was off limits, you couldn't be filmed. But if two people went to the bathroom together, then it was okay. I was like, what a weird rule to have in place. Um and then Tyra, like you mentioned with the deflection, and it just it it was it looked so bad for her because like she's sitting there talking about that's basically not her pay grade because that's not like what she's involved in. Meanwhile, she was an executive producer, like she had an executive producer credit on America's Next Top Model. And they also made sure to show that clip from the Tyra Banks talk show where she brought Shandy on. And Shandy explained that backstage, like she basically said, like, I really, I don't wanna, I don't want that clip from the show played of the whole thing going down. I don't want to talk about it. And Tyra proceeds to kind of poke and nudge at her on the talk show about it. And then when Shandy's not really like kind of giving anything, um they play the they play the whole thing like right there in front of the viewing audience at the at the talk show. They play it for the cameras, they have like Shan, they like film Shandy's reaction to it. Just very just nasty and just evil energy. And oh, and then they also I forgot, they showed the footage from America's Ex Top Model like the next day when because Tyra's talking about she had like she doesn't even really remember what exactly happened. Meanwhile, they show footage of Tyra showing up to have a little a little dinner moment with the girls where she is kind of like playing around talking, and then she very clearly is like beating around the bush to bring it up like to Shandy. So it's like clearly, girl, you knew what happened, like you were feeling like somebody somebody gave you the information. Yeah, like so it just they Tyra really was wild trying to like swerve accountability and kind of just blatantly lie when it's like girl, there's a lot of footage that they can pull up, and they did pull it up.

SPEAKER_01 31:53

You know, even how they ended the first episode was kind of funny. You have Tyra going like, Oh, I'm not sure I'm not sure if I remember about the Sandy situation. Yeah, like girl, you know damn well you remember. Yeah, that's why you wore a trench coat. That's why you wore a trench coat.

SPEAKER_00 32:07

Not saying a girl is sexually assaulted in the show, and it's it's to you, it's like, oh, I just you know, I don't know, maybe what was that up again? What was that about? It's like, come on, yeah. Um, and it was interesting to hear Shandy talk about just like the behind the scenes of like how like when she called her boyfriend and everything. Well, first of all, she was talking about how for the longest time, like she was demanding a phone, she was everything like that, and nobody would give her a phone. And then the moment she threatened to leave, then suddenly they could give her a phone. Um, but then they were like, Okay, we'll give you your phone to call your boyfriend, but we're but we're only only if we can film it. It's like, wow, that's that that's I mean, that's reality TV producer type shit. Um but then the fact she said that even afterwards, like as she's laying on the ground crying, that like afterwards, like the cameramen are even like apologizing to her, like, oh my god, I'm so sorry that we had to film that. So, like, even the people on set are like realizing like this is not okay, like there's a problem here. Cause I mean, you don't just apologize for no reason, like you at least gotta feel kind of messy. Um and then what was it? Was it Ken? Was it was it Ken that made a comment about like oh my gosh, there was I mean Tyra said you guys were demanding it. I was like, whoa, yeah. Well when Tyra was when Tyra was talking about like oh no, you know what Ken said is Ken said that they there was so much that they didn't show from that, I was like, what the hell did you guys film and not show?

SPEAKER_01 33:39

Try to make someone feel better about it, like uh they talked about Janet Jackson there the outside censorship laws change, so we have to go edit the scene of it. So y'all were gonna have her titties out.

SPEAKER_00 33:50

Wait, well that's that's what I'm wondering. Because like what they showed was so bad and so damning and fucked up that it's like it it it terrifies me to think about what was cut out that like was recorded. Because like we literally watched a woman get sexually assaulted on camera. Like that's like that's what we watched. Um so I'm like, what what did you guys cut out that was even worse? Like that's what freaks me out.

SPEAKER_01 34:16

Freaking hot tub antics, yeah no, the produ the producers in the downsides of reality TV in the 2000s are no ethics. I mean it's still got no ethics now, but at least you can go sound off on social media.

SPEAKER_00 34:31

Yeah, well, and back then it was very much like okay, well who care who cares if a fucking who cares if like an actual felony is being committed on set. We're just gonna keep recording and not and not step in. Um but yeah, and you could tell just listening to Shandy talk about it, um, that it was such like a devastating, world-chattering thing for her, and it followed her. She was talking about how like after it aired, like her and her boyfriend would be like walking on the street, and people would call her a slut and a whore like on the street that recognized her, being like, Oh, you cheated on your boyfriend on TV and everything like that. Like, just the fact that it just followed her in the way that it did, and that it really did just like destroy her reputation. It you know, destroyed like this kind of sense of confidence and self-esteem that she was building, like on the show, like it just really just took her down, you know.

SPEAKER_01 35:27

I know she seemed so defeated by it. I think a lot of them seemed to generally still kind of stick with a lot of the stuff from the show or when reflecting on it. Seemed to really get choked up and emotional overall. I think Danny too really seemed to take a toll on it. I think she probably had the second most like maybe impactful story, or seemed to be you know heavily featured.

SPEAKER_00 35:47

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:48

I think everything from the gap to like her career afterwards.

SPEAKER_00 35:53

Right, I know. Danny, that was hard because like I remember how crazy it was watching like at the time, like them like because like there was always the makeover episodes, and the thing about the makeover episodes is they definitely escalated over the seasons. Where you know, I feel like in the beginning it genuinely was like, we're gonna get we're gonna give you like more of a look that's gonna help you like get work and that's gonna help you in the industry and everything, versus it definitely over time became more about like some girls were gonna get a good makeover that was gonna be actually genuinely helpful like for their career, but other girls were gonna get like thrown in the bus by like we're just gonna give this girl a really shocking makeover, we're gonna give this girl like a horrible makeover on purpose to just push her and see how she reacts and you know make her look crazy on TV. Um, but you know, previously it was always just like hair for the most part. It was like, okay, we're gonna cut your hair, dye your hair, or do a perm or do a weave or like whatever. It was more of like a hair makeover versus escalating it to fucking dentistry is crazy. Like we're gonna oh yeah, no girls, we're gonna send you in for like oral surgery.

SPEAKER_01 37:02

Right?

SPEAKER_00 37:03

For your makeup.

SPEAKER_01 37:04

I'm glad they had both Joni and Danny this week to that, getting both sides of it. Because Joni kind of got you know her snaggle tooth fixed, as Miss J liked to point out. And she was very excited for it. She was gung ho for like, yes, I'm gonna go through it, let me do it. Well, Danny was like, mmm, this is kind of me, this is my brand. Yeah, and she didn't really do it until they were like, Well, girl, you're going home if you don't.

SPEAKER_00 37:26

Yeah, that's that's what's crazy. Like when they played that clip of, and that's the thing with Tyra, because like Tyra, once again, Tyra skirted accountability on this, basically being like, Oh, that was, you know, just that was the people behind the scenes that were pressing for that, you know. I didn't really want that. And they play the clip of her like kind of mocking her gap, putting her finger up in between her teeth, talking about like, You think you're gonna get a job being easy breezy, beautiful cover girl? That was uh and then when she when Danny continued to like refuse to do it, you know, Miss J saying, Looks like a gap just opened up in the competition. I was like, Oh Jesus. Right.

SPEAKER_01 37:58

Um like they were especially because later on they had one girl in cycle 16, like have her gap ex exaggerated, like send it. Yeah, I'm just doing shock value.

SPEAKER_00 38:12

Right. Well, I think, and that I think that's like what would piss me off the most if I were in Danny's shoots was the fact that they would later on go on to widen a girl's gap. I'm like, are you fucking kidding me? Um, and you know what's funny is I misremembered how this all went down until like I watched it on here because like the way I remembered it in my head is I always remembered it that she refused and she didn't do it and she still won anyway. So when they showed that she actually went through with it, I was like, oh my god, I completely forgot that she actually ended up like going through with it because of the pressure they put on her. Um and she won.

SPEAKER_01 38:46

Maybe that was the call to the win. Maybe they were like, Well, we have to let her win now. I mean, not that she didn't deserve the win. I watched that cycle. She was eating them up.

SPEAKER_00 38:52

Yeah. And it was just so crazy to me watch shit like that, like them like talking about her gap, because I feel like with Danny, she had like she just had like one and that thing, and she still does, but I mean, she just like naturally had just like that face for modeling, you know. Like, she was just born with like one of those faces where like she's so beautiful, but like not in a cookie-cutter way. Like, she's beautiful in a way that she has all of these unique features that come together just perfectly, and she just had that face. Like, the idea that they would even want to change anything about that face in the first place is like bonkers to me. I'm like, y'all, y'all are not, y'all are not definitely not acting in the best interest of these girls' careers. Right?

SPEAKER_01 39:36

I mean, they should have known that from some of the portfolios or whatnot. I should have known as a kid these damn shoots get jumped from the top of shit and these over-exaggerated makeup wasn't gonna be good for those bottom portfolios. I mean, I thought they were eating them the fuck up. I mean, at least I let them keep the photos. At least I went like, oh, this is property of the show, you can't have these.

SPEAKER_00 39:56

Right, because when um it might have been Kenya, I can't remember which girl was was or maybe it was Devon. I I just remember, Dion, I just remember um one of the girls like mentioned, like, oh yeah, and I couldn't use any of the photos for my portfolio. And that's where I thought she was gonna go for a second, was saying that the show wouldn't let her, but then she said, Let's like, no, because they just like these were these were stupid photos. I like I can't like literally this was not gonna work for my portfolio. Um but yeah, and Danny definitely you could tell she had a lot of just built-up frustration over the whole thing. She really went into not just what she went through on the show, but like what she went through after with trying to like pursue her career as a model and how the show like literally like confirmed, like hampered her career.

SPEAKER_01 40:44

Oh, yeah, no. She talks about like living in the model houses in New York afterwards, not really getting auditions, living with all the other girls, seeing them go out on things, and we're getting a lot of things. Definitely a household name. At least I don't even know the modeling world, and I know her.

unknown 41:02

Right.

SPEAKER_01 41:02

Talk about how like she was getting things having her eyes, and at one point she had asked, it was like, you know, why can't Danny get things? They were like, Well, we kind of have to treat her different, which I think is like wild to a degree. Like, I know, like, there's always a reality TV stigma, but was it just straight up that? Was she too distracting? Like, I need to realize the why. You can't at least get her some commercial work, like, right.

SPEAKER_00 41:26

Well, Danny kind of mentioned that like for her, it was kind of like they didn't want top model girls because designers, because basically, like, when you're working as a model, I mean, like, as far as like, you know, you're if you're doing like photo shoots, you're kind of like a canvas for a makeup artist and a stylist and um and a hairstylist. Um, and then if you're walking runway, you're basically like a living, walking human hanger to design these clothes. And she was talking about like with the stigma and everything, it's kind of like the designers don't want these reality stars on the stage that are gonna pull attention away from the designs. Like they don't want someone, they want someone that's gonna promote the clothes, not themselves. And I find that so interesting because one of the reasons, because I remember listening to a Tyra Banks interview from like years ago, where she talked about how she kind of like made the transition from kind of like the high-fashion runways to doing like Victoria's Secret modeling and things like that, doing more commercial stuff. And she was saying part of it was because she kind of had too much personality on the runways. Like she was kind of just too much being Tyra rather than just wearing the clothes and being a model. I can see that. I can see that. Um so it's interesting to me to see the parallels between that and like these girls that she's kind of um that she's kind of like subjecting to a similar fate, but then not really giving them the infrastructure to pivot the way that she was able to. Um, which is unfortunate. And Danny even talks about how she said like 15 years after her season, she had a phone conversation with Tyra where she claims that Tyra basically admitted, like, yeah, I saw you struggling and I didn't do anything about it.

SPEAKER_01 43:12

Um the quote was I knew that there were certain doors that you couldn't even get into because you're the top model. I did nothing about it. And for some reason, she had I always rolled the fence with you. What what the fuck is that to add?

SPEAKER_00 43:23

Yeah, like what does that mean? Like, what the fuck does that even mean? Like, what do you mean you wrote the fence with it?

SPEAKER_01 43:29

I know the hell you've been through, uh you wouldn't even do anything. Couldn't even say hello, offer a shoot, a huh, a collab.

SPEAKER_00 43:37

Right, it's just weird to me. And and the thing is, like, what sends me is the fact that Tyra, like in a private phone conversation, can admit some wrongdoing and that like I didn't do it enough for you. But she can't when she's when she's on this docuseries, she wants to she wants to avoid any accountability. In her fucking trench coat. In the fucking trench coat. Um well another girl that I really was hurting for was Ebony. Because I mean I I love Ebony. She was so fantastic on that first cycle. She was such a personality. She was so beautiful. And she really liked, she had like a natural, I think, gift as a model.

SPEAKER_01 44:22

And this natural personality.

SPEAKER_00 44:26

Yeah. And it was just so hard watching because like we kind of got some backstory on her casting, and Ken Mock mentioned, which this is like such like a thing of like early 2000s reality TV, where he mentioned that like in the net the network's idea of diversity was one person of color. I was like, yeah, that that was all these reality competition shows at the time.

SPEAKER_01 44:46

Um one man, one woman on Survivor, maybe one overall on Big Brother.

unknown 44:52

Right.

SPEAKER_01 44:52

Three on Top Model. I mean, Top Model is one of the most colorful shows on the freaking thing at the time.

SPEAKER_00 44:58

Yeah, but I felt awful for Ebony while she talked about her experience of like the judges just constantly coming after her for her skin and talking about how during the makeover episode, like in the salon, like they were like just completely they were completely ill-equipped to handle her hair type. And they were like making a joke out of it, like kick like giggling and like laughing about the fact that they like don't know what they're doing, and um that they're just doing her dirty in general. And the and the fact that just Ebony was such a in my opinion, such a groundbreaking figure for reality TV at that time because like you have not just a woman, but she's a woman of color, but not only is she just a woman of color, but she's a gay woman of color. And early 2000s, like American television, that's a big deal.

SPEAKER_01 45:52

I thought you got Robin going. Ebony is a lesbian, that offends me.

SPEAKER_00 45:56

That was crazy. That offends me. Oh, Robin, they they should have gotten that god warrior on here to talk. Yeah, it's just now with everything.

SPEAKER_01 46:18

We love how she's being received, and I think she's in the wellness space and doing creative work, which she does tastes like a fun creative lady.

SPEAKER_00 46:28

And she was talking about if you have some acting roles for me, Hannah M over, I'll take them.

SPEAKER_01 46:33

And we briefly saw my girl Dion, which they didn't. This is probably one of the little bit of fault that Ken Mach ommitted to. He said, Well, I'll take more responsibility for the death shoes. I think that was gruesome. Although he did he mostly said about it for promoting violence and glorifying it rather than trying to traumatize cast members because Dion had to do the gun violence, you know, theme shoot. When production knew that her mom was paralyzed from the waist down because of a shooting. Also on this season, but not in the documentary. I I don't actually was it the same, was it the same season? I'm pausing because I'm looking up to see if this girl's still alive. No, she's not. Wow. And then Ja El, who unfortunately passed away, she was also on this shoe, and she just had a friend pass away on the show. So they were being extra crazy with this shoe. Like they were being insane.

SPEAKER_00 47:21

Yeah, one that and like we know they did shit like that in general, like um the uh I can't remember the exact cycle in the model, but we we all remember that girl that like found out her friend died and was immediately they immediately afterwards did like the graveyard photo shoot of them portraying like deadly sins in the coffins and just shit like that, where it was like, okay, that's just dirty, you know, that is dirty as hell. Um to push these girls in these ways.

SPEAKER_01 47:54

And I think they knew at least they acknowledge at some point that the shoots were getting ridiculous. They were like, Yeah, we just do we're doing anything for views, for ratings, just real unserious, putting them girls in Greek school and whatnot.

SPEAKER_00 48:05

Right. Well, and I think um what I find interesting too is the fact that like the show, the like the original premise is that like the girls were kind of doing challenges based off of Tyra's career. Like, pretty much everything they were doing was something that Tyra had kind of done or experienced, like working in the industry. But yeah, you could definitely tell as the show went on. Like it just got so ridiculous. It's like, okay, Tyra, I know you didn't do this shit. Um it's it's kind of like it's a similar thing to um on drag race, which is common, like in the in the early since of drag race, it was kind of considered like a spoof of top model, and RuPaul was kind of considered like a spoof of Tyra Banks to an extent. Um, and drag race was a similar premise where like the queens would be like the challenges they were doing were kind of based off of RuPaul's career um as a drag queen and an entertainer. Um, so I thought getting to see like that evolution and the explanation behind it was interesting. Um kind of just my last thought on the girls themselves is I feel like most of the girls, in one way or another, um, expressed a certain level of like, does the show hurt their reputation or their ability to work? Obviously, we went over like how it kind of impacted Danny. Um, we went over how it impacted Shandy. Um, and I I did mention here when it came to Ebony that Tyra was like wrong as hell for going on television and calling Ebony angry and difficult to work with on national television.

SPEAKER_02 49:29

Right.

SPEAKER_00 49:29

Um, because for for I think for someone like I mentioned earlier, for a queer black woman on TV and in the modeling industry, that's like the kiss of death. That's like say goodbye to your career. Like if you're labeled, if you're just like right off the bat like that, labeled difficult and angry, like you're not gonna get any work, you're not getting any jobs.

SPEAKER_01 49:49

Oh no, for sure. And then even like when she thought Tyra was gonna come be her friend at the side, she's she was like taking her to the side, she thought Tyra was gonna, you know, hype her up or something, or you know, give us some advice. She's like, girl, next thing you ask, you have to get you know audition, you need someone like the saying that of all things, like was ridiculous. Yeah, and then for these girls to turn around and be like, You're making Dorna, I was have grease. Like, if you don't shut up, uh right.

SPEAKER_00 50:12

Well now.

SPEAKER_01 50:13

I would have just took taken off my mic if I was Ebony. I would have taken off my mic.

SPEAKER_00 50:17

Right, yeah, the the way the girls were treating her, and like that's the thing though, is like when you create such a toxic environment where the people at the top are making that acceptable, it's gonna trickle down. Um, do we did?

SPEAKER_01 50:31

I mean, they wanted to foster a toxic ass environment, which they succeeded, they succeeded.

SPEAKER_00 50:38

Okay. Well, speaking of the people at the top, do we want to move on to our panel members who got quite the spotlight as this like went clone closer to the end of the docuseries?

SPEAKER_01 50:50

For sure. Who do we want to start with?

SPEAKER_00 50:54

Well, let's talk about the one who irritates me the most, which is Jay, which is Jay Mill. Yeah, he's he he is so damn irritated. He's so damn irritating. To me, it it it's you know, I'm surprised that him and Tyra can't work it out and be best friends because they are one and the same.

SPEAKER_01 51:09

Um his interviews you could tell he wants to be more famous, it wants to be like bigger and more revered.

SPEAKER_00 51:17

Yeah, because he is just so much him and Tyra, they both like they both just have so much of the same, like just complete lack of any ability to take accountability. And they just have so many of the same like toxic traits to me. Um but Jay, similar to Tyra in this, there was a lot of, oh, I didn't really have the creative uh the creative control here. Oh, this wasn't really me, or oh, I like didn't want to do this, but I kind of just had to because it was just my job, you know. Um, you know, he kind of like he really like when they kind of went into the more controversial photo shoot, such as the race swapping one, he very much wanted to distance himself, even though he was involved. He wanted to distance himself and act like he had no control over it, which I'm not saying he necessarily had control over it. But in my mind, at the end of the day, we all have you know, we all have free will, we all can make the choices we're gonna make.

SPEAKER_01 52:15

Yeah, we have some agency.

SPEAKER_00 52:17

Yeah. Well, and the fact that he mentioned that when he tried to leave the show initially, that they like made kind of like they kind of put in a big stink to get him to stay. It's kind of like to me, I feel like you had some pull, you know. Like you you weren't powerless on this show. Right.

SPEAKER_01 52:34

You were not renegotiating because were people really clamoring for you? I mean, I guess being on TV, there was definitely some gigs and whatnot, but this was one of the biggest shows in the television. You wasn't all just walk away from that.

SPEAKER_00 52:46

Yeah, one he said he wanted to walk away and that they like essentially threatened to blacklist him in order to get him to stay, but then he also stayed for several more years after that. Some like Yeah, which I never realized that his role was reduced, reduced, or he saw he claims Yeah, like he because like what he yeah, he claimed that after he tried to leave and they kept him, that he lost a lot of his creative control. But my thing is like you lost creative control, which means you had more creative control, which means that you had more creative control during some of those earlier, like controversial photo shoots. So it's like we're just going in circles with Jay of just like like not wanting to really. I feel like to me, Jay was exactly the same as this as he was in those Instagram lives a few years ago. Like it was basically it feels to me like he's kind of like a disgruntled former co-worker. Um and he kind of has a bone to pick with like Tyra and the and the powers that be because he felt like wronged. And it kind of felt like it's a very like leopard's eating the face moment. I think honestly, with all of them, with the entire panel, including Tyra, it was very much a like, we're gonna be a part of like the toxicity and the problem until it like takes us out, too. Which each of them did get fired at some point.

SPEAKER_01 54:07

Yeah, I mean, yeah. Although I don't know. I mean, I think they all three of them seem to have well, I don't know about Nigel. At least the Jays seemed to have some reverence for the girls, at least Miss Jay more than the rest. Although he was dragging the hell out of them. I think his drag seemed a little sincere, like they were with love. Like, oh girl, you got messed, but we're gonna fix it, you know?

SPEAKER_00 54:26

Yeah, I felt like out of out of all of them, I felt like Jay. I felt like Jay just had the least to answer to. Like, I feel like old, like I feel like Jay's worst moments were not nearly as bad. Nigel too, I guess. Like Jay and Nigel's worth moments were not anywhere near as bad as uh Jay Manuel and Tyrant and Ken Mox.

SPEAKER_01 54:46

And one last thing with Jay Manuel, I don't know. He reminds me a lot of like the one who got scammed with a credit card by Anna of Del V and like shit up about it. Right, there's always each other side, so I'm not gonna be able to Rachel, not Rachel. Yeah, like you wanted to be in the sun too. Like you wanted to just be, you wanted to have your moment.

SPEAKER_00 55:07

Exactly. That's what that's what I'm saying. It's very much a leopard, the leopards ate my face moment. Like, yeah, girl. Like everyone's replaceable, everyone's expendable.

SPEAKER_01 55:17

Um sacred cows, as Tyra liked to repeat.

SPEAKER_00 55:20

Oh Lord. She did say that several times. There are no sacred cows, and she goes, and then eventually I was not a sacred cow either. Um I I did when when they um when Tyra, like I don't know if that's actually how it went down, but Tyra made it seem like that the network had basically told her, like, oh no, you have to deliver the news to them that they're fired. Right. I was like, this is some mobster mafia shit. You gonna make her take the killing blow to you're gonna make her take the killing blow to her gaze?

SPEAKER_01 55:48

Um do her yeah, did they just make her do that to be evil? Did they really make her do that?

SPEAKER_00 55:56

I mean, maybe, maybe, maybe it was punishment because she because she said she was dodging their cause for a while. Maybe that was the punishment. Like, okay, well, now you gotta deliver the bad news. I mean, if it was the last moon vest, I mean he's been accused of much evil or so. Yeah, and I mean and I mean him and Tyra already almost got physical, as they mentioned in here. That was wild all over cats casting a Latina. That thing Ken Mock had to be like Tyra Nut. But did she try to cast an Asian girl? Oh Lord. Um, one last thing on Jay for me, I just want to point this out. This is very petty of me, but near the end, when Jay took a selfie with himself, uh Miss Jay, and Nigel, the trio together, which you know what set me is I did not expect this trio of men to be like the most wholesome aspect of their French to be the most wholesome aspect of this docu series. But um at the end, when they took a selfie together, I just cackled because it went from them taking the selfie and then they put the actual selfie on the screen. And Jay Manuel face tuned the hell out of himself in that selfie and did not give any face tune to Nigel or Miss J. Alexander. Like they they were just their natural selves in the picture. Well, he face tuned the hell of himself because I'm like, girl, you like set yourself back to like cycle 12. Uh because that's not what you look like today with them with all that filler. Which that's what confuses me. Why do people like I don't get like why do people get all this filler below their faces up and then they post these like face tuned pictures where they like they like remove the filler with the face tune. I'm like, why'd you get it in the first place? And you're just gonna remove it with face tune. But I don't know, J-Man. Well, he kind of looks like he has like that silicone filler that they can't get out, you know? That's what it looks like to me. He definitely has something.

SPEAKER_01 57:38

But one last thing I want to add for Jay is that I actually have had the pleasure of having purchased the wig, the bitch in the meltdown. The book that he mentioned that he's trying to bring to the screen.

SPEAKER_00 57:48

I thought you were gonna try to say that you had the pleasure of meeting. I was like, bitch, when the fuck you meet J-Man with and why did I never know about it? Why are you saving this gag for now?

SPEAKER_01 57:58

I mean, maybe we met the gay bars in New York. Maybe there's one bar Rise, but the reality stars are always at. Whenever I see a reality star at New York, they're always at Rise. I don't know what Rise connect what connections Rise has, but they're probably doing couple of that. I think that's all of them in Hell's Kitchen, maybe. But this isn't like a novel very loosely inspired by like life behind the cameras of top model, and like all the characters are pretty much just like people from the show, just with different names. Like Tyra's Keisha Cash. I think his character is called Pablo or something, and it's just as messy as you would expect, and as simplistic of writing as you would expect. What surprised me was like in the book, the character that's essentially Nigel sexually assaults the character that's essentially Jay Manuel. So I was like, is he trying to apply something here? But he's going with a documentary saying that, like, oh, that's my bestie, we're locked in, taking his selfie. I think that's confusing, and it was also just very shady towards Tyra slash Keicha talking about oh, she's always eating ice cream, she's always eating ice cream. Which when when Tyra came out with the hot ice cream and whatnot, I'm like, okay, this makes this meant my track. Tyra has just vaping and evil, and I never finished it. I only got through 60% of it. I bought this during my top model super bins, and I was like, you know what? I want to read this book. You know what's funny? But it was a mess. It was a mess.

SPEAKER_00 59:26

What's funny is I have never read the book, but I like was aware of the book. Like I remember seeing that the cover and like kind of like knowing the gist of like, like, oh, it's about it's like a fictionalized version of American Sex Top Model or the set or whatever, the industry. Um and when I saw it, I immediately just assumed it was like very similar to like when Star Jones wrote that book about like bitches on set or whatever, or daytime bitches or whatever. Where probably what where it was like very obviously like talking about the women from the view, including like just Barbara Walters and how much she hates hated that woman. Um, but like changing the names and everything. So like and like hearing you describe it, I'm like, okay, yeah, no, like they they both did they kind of like they made the same move with their with their books.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:08

And I I I would like to retreat a brief excerpt to give you, you know, a sense of what was going on here. Wait, let me let me uh let me let me let me get to you with it. It was too much space for a star who kept herself locked inside with either De La Renta or Pablo for fear that crew members might catch a glimpse of her, what she looked like out of drag, as Di La Renta called it. During the first season, Keisha always came to set without her wiggle makeup. However, one day the studio manager kept walking right past her without any idea who she was. She ran to her trailer in tears, and from there on refused to come to set without her face and lid. The supermodel needed to be fortified with her armor, as she called it, more than ever, and so it was.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:01

That bit is messy as hell. He was so damn messy. And he's he he's so I I I feel like Eva right now tomorrow. Oh, you so bitter, I'm gonna pray for you. Right?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:13

So I think that's one call that Tyra's, I feel like justified in not returning. At least tomorrow. Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:19

Well, you know what's funny is um because the so from what I I saw an article today, because like um or not today, yesterday. Yeah, no, it was like the same on Monday when the docuseries came out, Jay was too impressed, and they asked him because Tyra mentioned the docuseries, like when they because she refuses to talk about Jay, which I was very disappointed about because that's that's that was a big part of what I was looking forward. Because like I I mean, I already been known about Jay's grievances with Tyra. I wanted to hear what she had to say about the whole thing. Because she's she's she's never addressed it, and so the fact that she refused to talk about it, I was like, oh, okay. And then she's gonna be a good thing.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:55

Jay special man. I'm I'm gonna use that if I fall out with somebody. What the she's in person?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:01

She said that needs to be a phone call. And what I thought was hilarious was that Jay Manuel in his interview the other day um said that he never received that phone call. And he said he claims that these interviews were filmed almost a year ago, and he does not receive that phone call from Tyra.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:18

And he also says he's giving us the update.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:21

And he said that they have not had any kind of interaction. He said they like saw each other in 2017 somewhere, and that they have had no communication or interaction since then. Not a text message, not a phone call, not an email, nothing. Um and I also want to say though, I kind of understand, like to an extent, Tyra's feelings towards Jay as well, because Jay said that when he was wanting to leave the show, he said that he and Tyra had like they were really close and they had this pack that they would share everything with each other. And so he said he knew he had to tell her first, but then he proceeded to tell her via email. He sent her an email just saying, I want to leave the show. Um, basically. And he was like shocked that she was upset about it. I'm like, because he was saying that he was expecting like that to like start a heart to heart. I'm like, an email? You you thought that email was gonna start heart to heart? You should have told that in person, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:03:11

2008, like you can go out, email.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:14

Really? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:15

That's definitely call a bitch up, go to their apartment era. I mean, whenever this happened, it was still when you went when you call a bitch up, like like some of our aunts, I'm sure, like to do with us.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:26

Oh, the phone calls, oh, the phone calls when your caller ID pops up.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:32

Well, you know what? Some people enjoy the talk. Some people enjoy the talk. Well, I actually get to Nigel.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:38

Yeah, let's get to Nigel. Let's get to Nigel, the the straight man, the straight man. Um they were like, oh, kind of leading with his introduction.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:46

Oh, we need somebody straight, hot, and white. I was like, whoa. Yeah, it was crazy. I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Uh oh. Oh Lord, I was like, oh, the industry wasn't, they were I thought they would at least you know skew around it. Like, do we have anybody with like a David Beckham aesthetic or something? But no, they were right to it. And then I just spilled the tea like, well, I'm half Sri Lankan. Which I always knew he had something in him. I never thought he was just a white man. Like I never just read him as full on white. I'm like, he's too tan.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:16

Actually, he's got a little something. He's all right.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:19

You know what some people like to tan maybe right? It wasn't like a rat. I'm like, well, no, that's I didn't know they were going to white tan. I never know they were going for white. I thought I thought he was just like something, you know. That's what would happen like something.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:30

If I were to go out and tan, my chest would be all fucked up like Britney Spears. It would be all freckled and wrinkled and shit. But um not like Britney Spears. No shit. Sorry, Brittany, but you know, son and meth, allegedly meth. Um but anyway, nice. You know what? We you the that that was that never happened. I just made that.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:58

I just made that up.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:59

You signed an you signed an NDA. You can't talk about that. Um I don't think I don't think that ever actually happened. I'm just being messy. Yeah. My faked hand did rub off on that little that little pride scarf I had on. It did rub off on that and ruined it. Wow. That that that is accurate, yes. Yeah, the faked hand part, right? Um but yeah, Nigel was another one who I feel like overall, like his direct behavior usually wasn't very problematic. But he was definitely one of those ones that was on set, kind of enabling a lot of shenanigans and kind of just being a bystander, like watching the bullshit going down and not really doing anything. And he does seem to have regrets about that.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:43

And like I would say he was one I never really remembered from being like, you know, he would always throw in like a nasty comment, but like he didn't seem too malicious. Like, I was kind of surprised he was there. Yeah, I would rather see like a Janice or a Twiggy to really get like the full pan of the gamble, but yeah, the full gamut of the pant. But obviously Janice was tied up in things and who knows where Twiggy is. But I think Nitro, like he insisted that he always tried to keep it constructive, pretty much, which I feel like it was. But I don't think he did anything that wasn't, you know, par for the course with the time.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:17

I agree. I agree. I think he I think he yeah, he definitely didn't have the nastiness of Janice or the occasional just really like next level bitchiness of like a Jay Manuel. Um but I think he also lacked, like we kind of mentioned with Miss Jay Alexander that like Jay would kind of like throw maybe a little loving shade sometimes. I feel like Nigel lacked like that fondness for the girls, like it felt very impersonal. The interactions.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:45

Well, maybe as a straight man, he has to keep it more professional.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:48

That's true. You don't want to like give people a little bit. Yeah. What I mean and his entire job as a photographer is literally like these girls have to be comfortable around him. So like so one allegation coming out could really fuck everything up.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:07

Alright. His his whole career.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:11

Not saying all you need is a Giselle to talk about talking about I was uncomfortable. And I'm talking about Giselle Bryant, not not not the supermodel.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:20

Not Giselle from Psycho One who also appeared. No.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:22

Yeah, not from the body.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:23

I was gonna say, like, she didn't say that shit. Giselle Sampson did not say that shit.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:28

Giselle Bryant would definitely just like take a quick photo and be I was uncomfortable. But um yeah, Nigel, I feel like overall, I was I what what I guess what really surprised me was just how close I didn't realize how close Nigel and Mr. Alexandra were because like they had some they had some really tender moments where like Nigel was talking about going to see Miss J after his stroke and how like Miss J probably wouldn't want Nigel to see him, but he's going anyway because he has to be there for him, and about how they were visiting, and then like when they were kind of like reunited for the interview at the end, like he like that like when he went over and held Miss J, it was like so like tender and sweet. I was like, oh my god. I was like, they like this is like I was like, this is not just like a working relationship. I'm like, this is like a real deep friendship.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:22

They were it was real. I mean, they were co-workers for like years at this point.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:26

I mean, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:28

And I'm sure they went through a lot, like discovering fame and all. Might pretty much be on the same meteoric rides at the same time.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:36

Right. Well, and I think it's really I think it's really special they developed that friendship because I think just the way Nigel came in, where there were those like weird racial undertones and homophobic undertones, um, I feel like it would have been really easy for Nigel to come in and for Miss J and J Manuel to like feel a certain type of way and not be able to really get close to him um just because of how he was brought in. You know, that could have really set up some bullshit. Um, so it's really interesting that they were able to become so close as I guess treatment.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:08

Right, but it was still a little nice and heartwarming to see. At least somebody got some cameras out of it. Tyra would have to run to Australia away by herself.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:18

And I loved the little I loved when they showed like that interview, that press interview the three of them did together right after they were fired. Um and and fucking Jay Memoir was asked that messy ass question about what's it really like working with Tyra? Because I've heard she's difficult. Um and like Jay is like thinking about what he wants to say, and you can see like Nigel and Miss Jay both looking at him, and then like when Jay goes into kind of like the PR answer, like you see Miss Jay like roll his eyes damn near out of his ass, like on live TV. Um do do we want to get into Miss J? Because I was really happy to see Miss J here. Um, and I was completely unaware before this that Miss Jay had had a stroke. I didn't know. I was too.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:04

So I'm just gas, I'm doing a Cynthia gasp. Like, like walking this documentary, like, oh no, oh no. And I'm so sad of having Miss J say, like, I've taught all these girls how to walk and run away, walk, and I can't walk right now. Like that line broke me.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:18

That really was hurt. And the thing is, is like even throughout the documentary, like I noticed that he sounded a little different, like the way he was talking sounded a little off, but I didn't really think anything of it. I was like, okay, whatever. Um, so even like I I had not even like put two and two together about the stroke until like literally he said out of his mouth that he had a stroke. I was like, oh my god.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:43

I know it was a lot to sit with, and then finding out Tyra did not pay Nary a visit. I think was the nail of her coffin. Yeah, that's like girl, come on now, like really like no Newton 17 to what's such a pinnacle of the show. Like, not even a visit, like, is insane. And I think I don't know. For me, I was still like, okay, it was for the times. Like, not necessarily wanted to defend Tyra, but I just like you know, you can't, you know, you know, she wasn't the full-on villain. How much how did she really have? They still fired her at one point for Rita Aura, but the lack of a visit there is like girl, girl, you know, yeah, that just that just felt so cold.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:26

Like, I get even if you weren't on speaking terms at the time, I don't know. I feel like when you have the history that they have, that's just one of those moments where you just put shit aside and you're just there, you know. Um, just like as a human. So it's just strange to me that Tyra, like it's like even if like not a visit, like a phone call, like something, like some kind of check-in, like something.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:53

I don't know, but you know, Tyra looks really bad from that. I think my last impression is like, oof, and you want to talk about cycle 25, you won't talk about cycle 25.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:02

I know, I know. Like, when then the thing is, is like what's weird to me too is that like they announced the cycle 25 thing before the docuseries actually came out. So, like that was weird to me because at the end when she announced it, it felt like that was supposed to be like the gag, but we were already gagged ahead of time, we were pre-gagged. Uh, but but I I loved when she like announced cycle 25 wanted her spiel at the end, and then it immediately cut to Danny. That's MBS.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:28

Danny was over. They would edit her, they would edit back to her quick, like you know, you know how it fucking feels, Tyra.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:34

It was like, ooh, yeah, no, they're not in that chair.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:37

But Danny was happening into real emotions. Danny and Sandy both.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:40

Yeah, yeah, no, they really were. I I loved the back and forth, but they would like when they would cut from a Tyra moment to a Danny moment because they love to do that throughout this whole thing. Oh, they were because Danny loved to call her ass out. Um, but yeah, what was I guess just your overall opinion on the docuseries like as a whole? Like what kind of like what were your final thoughts after getting to finish it and then sit with it?

SPEAKER_01 1:13:05

Overall, I enjoyed it. I think it was refreshing to get like relatively new information and perspectives, especially to focus on like the judges and the hosting panel. I personally would have liked to see more. I definitely think they could have like taken their time with this. I don't know if they were trying to be like the first, knowing that there was some competition coming, but I think it could have been an opportunity to expand beyond that little Netflix three-episode formula. Give us, you know, four to six, maybe. Speak to more girls, get into one specific cycle. Did you really expand? I feel like they could have made this big with their, you know, endless amount of budget, but at least it leaves room for more documentaries.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:42

Right now, yeah, now it's like now I we might be able to get like new stuff with uh with the other ones coming out.

unknown 1:13:48

Alright.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:49

So I'll take a look at the body. And it was very entertaining. Like I wasn't even trying to rush through things, though. I think there's a you know way too much social media bureau, and there's this one girl who I'm like, what season was she on? And she's just like some random blogger or something. Like you could have kept her to one of the little 9x16, you know, TikTok clips. She need to she didn't need to sit down on the chair.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:14

Yeah, she did pop up quite a bit. I I I did kind of like her just because like she was like a legitimate journalist, but also she kind of I kind of I kind of felt like she was me a bit because you could tell, like, like she was like wearing her journalist hat, but also you could tell like oh you you were watching the marathons too. You were watching the marathons too, Zakia. Like you were watching those marathons too, just like me. Cause I could I could tell that you were a fan.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:39

Well, we all were. It touched a it touch a generation, it touch a generation, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:14:44

We all were watching Top Model, and we were all, you know, and the thing is I literally I I watched when I was watching, I watched like on my walking pads. I'm like, uh Tyran gonna call me a fat bitch today.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:58

Well well, she is gonna pick the bad shot in the shoot for you, so oh lord, she probably would.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:03

She probably would talk about that gut.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:10

I know if I made it to the go if I made it to the ghost seeds, you're talking about we have nothing in your size, but y'all better find something.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:15

I know the the jam sample sizes. It's it's like it's like there is there's a clear cast here. You know all these girls' sizes. Like the the the proper size could have been provided.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:27

Right. I'll definitely pop my head outside, like y'all got any seamstresses out here? Because somebody's gonna put me in something. But I'll be I don't think I don't think I'd I'd be a bad model. I don't know. I'm like, I need a selfie camera to see my face. What do you mean I gotta find my own light, bitch?

SPEAKER_00 1:15:44

Oh that yeah, that's the thing, is I feel like I see some people that like are I guess like that like are aspiring models, like they want to be models, but then like they don't want to do the model shit. And I'm not talking about like I'm I'm not saying you have to like have an eating disorder or anything, but I'm just saying that like the people that are like, I don't wanna walk the way they want me to walk, I don't want to wear the things they want me to wear, I don't want my makeup done and hair done the way they want it to be done. I'm like, well, babe, like you're you're a can you're a walking canvas, like your job is literally to do all those things.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:12

All you're gonna get is a fashion over PDP. It got that boy on House of Villains.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:20

Right, when I guess. I mean, definitely nowadays. Well, I don't know because we kind of had an era with the modeling industry where like suddenly they were hiring like trans girls and they were hiring more women of color and they were hiring like plus size, like more plus size models, and just like more diverse models in general. We kind of had that era, and it seems like now that we're like in our little fascist regime era that we're in right now, um, it definitely feels like the modeling industry has gone back to be like one black girl, y'all are cisgender, y'all are skinny.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:54

And I'm sure the plus size models are taking those empire.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:58

Well, I mean, like some of the plus size models, like I remember Tess Holiday saying that like there was like a few years. Many, many years. Well, exactly, exactly. Um the plus size girls, the body positivity girls, they were getting all kinds of gigs, and she said just suddenly it just stopped, and that's like nope, no more gigs.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:17

Oh, I hope her and Ashley Graham saved her retirement. Well, Ashley Graham does every brand partnership under the fucking sun, so I think she's alright.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:26

Yeah, no, her her her pockets aren't hurting. Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:32

Well, I guess to kind of Will we Will we be watching Psycho 25? I mean, I'm just the cycle 25 of it all has me kind of like intrigued. Will Tyra make changes? Is it gonna be inclusive? Is it gonna be all-stars?

SPEAKER_00 1:17:45

Like, I mean, I feel like it works. I feel like it would have to be like I feel like the only way she could be like she could be doing a cycle 25, like of bringing this show back. Well, what's funny too though is what is that like when I looked at like news articles about that, uh, every single article was saying like no site like no new season has actually been confirmed by any like network or any like powers of beast. Yeah, it's literally pirate.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:12

That's why I was like unsure about the rumors. I'm like, has a network confirmed this?

SPEAKER_00 1:18:17

Well, yeah, because I mean we're also getting a Nicki Minaj album next month, sure. Um oh lord. But um it's just like um but yeah, I don't know. Like it it's it's weird because I feel like the only like the only reason I would watch Cycle 25 if it existed was out of pure curiosity and maybe like looking for a nostalgia hit. But like I just feel like I feel like A, there's too much like there's too much of like bad like juju there with the show. Like the show just has such a bad reputation at this point. Um Tyra herself doesn't have a great reputation, and I also feel like just this show at its peak really existed in a very specific time in a very specific culture, and I just don't know if I really see it working at this point. Like I almost feel like it's time is p come and gone, and like it just we got these little documentaries reflecting on it, but I don't really know if we need more of it at this point, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:19:25

Yeah, I feel like reboots in the reality space haven't really worked. They're like bringing some of these old shows back to their glory, like surreal life didn't work. They've been trying to make American Idol still happen for years. Yeah, the all-and while I do think like a modern modeling competition could be like interesting if they actually focused on like modeling skills and development, kind of like Yolanda Hadiz making a model, or like taking people who already have like Instagram followings, maybe because that's what they do anyway. Like, I think there's a lens where it'd be interesting, but like then it wouldn't be America's next top model, you know?

SPEAKER_00 1:19:58

Right, it wouldn't be like the show that we all remember and that we all binge watch during the marathons and everything. It's just a different, it's just a different television landscape, it's a different cultural moment. Um, and I feel like that show literally existed in the exact time that it could exist, like where it was kind of this era where like a lot of that problematic stuff would be considered socially acceptable. And it was also in an era where like reality TV was like really in its boom, and like a show like that could get picked up and happen and get a chance.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:28

Um I mean, people give anything a chance, but I know that's true.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:34

Well, and like the and like literally the one reality TV revival I can think of that was fantastic was Real House with Miami on Peacock, so maybe that's true. Oh, yeah, you're right. That is really the only one because I was trying to scour my brain, like that's the only one TV reboots work. Yeah, that's the only one that came back from the dead after being off the air for years, and it was like, oh, it's good. Right?

SPEAKER_01 1:20:59

Wow there we have it. It's a hard genre to revive.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:03

Yeah, it is.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:04

I mean baddies kind of did it while stealing the battle club method, but they're their own thing now. They're their own thing now.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:11

Yeah, I feel like baddies is like its own monster. Which if you want a baddies episode, Noah's still holding out, but I just I don't know if I don't have interest in that. Like, I don't know. I'm just I I think the reason why I like the reason why is. We will cover that. Um oh god, we have we'll have to cover that. I just I'm really not about it's one thing if like there's a show with drama and maybe a fight occurs like organically, but I'm just not really into the shows where it's just like the whole point is like we like not necessarily the whole point, but it's where like the fighting is just inevitable. Like, oh yeah, we're gonna we're gonna scrap and like and beat the shit out of each other. Like I could just scroll on like certain Twitter pages if I wanted to watch fight videos.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:12

Right? There's no there's none of the tension building and you know plot development of a bad girls club season.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:18

Yeah, like it's just like it's like when you're watching a show where you know like these girls are coming on and the expectation is that they're gonna fight and like physically fight, that just feels like different for me.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:29

Right, versus Portia running around the house talking about where is she after Natalie talking about her kid and the cameraman hauling ass down the stairs to chase her. Like that was cinematic go.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:39

Yeah, or even like prior to Bad Girls Club, like a fucking like VH1 slove reality era with like the flavor of love and everything, like where there was like so much like verbal fights and drama building up to maybe like one physical altercation that wasn't even that bad. Like, that's like something more in my in my sphere.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:58

And I just like from a cinematography perspective, like when the fights are impromptu and you see the caramen springing to get the shot, like they like combating the caramen are set up because they're fighting in the field already, like the the you know, the scene is set, but when the fight just breaks out, it just feels more real, it feels more chaotic.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:14

Yeah, exactly, exactly. And yeah, like that, like I said, if I wanted to watch people beat the shot of each other, I'll just like look up, I'll just like watch fight videos on fucking X.com.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:24

Well, that's possible. That's possible. But you know, overall, I would say definitely a watch if you're a reality TV or top model fan, even tangentially, tangentially, even if you haven't watched in a while. I don't know. I think a good viewing, and you know what? Do your laundry with this one, but look up from time to time because you don't need to pay attention. Yeah, though, or get on your little It's mostly people talking, it's mostly people talking. Yeah, get on your little walking pad like me. Right. Oh, yeah, girl, you you plugged this so much. We need to get one of them Amazon affiliate links in the episode bio.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:56

My my walking pad that prevented me from getting fat shamed by Janice Dickinson.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:01

And may or may not cause arthritis.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:06

I'm kind of surprised they didn't show the clip in this because they did show quite a bit of Janice's nasty moments. I'm surprised, I don't remember which girl it was, but there was a girl on Top Model one season. I remember Janice like making I think it was during I think it was during like the auditions and stuff where Janice was like, if you can fit one of your fat ass legs in my mini skirt, then you can get in. And I'm surprised I didn't show that because that's like that's like a that's like a moment that sticks out for me as just like nasty. So I'm kind of surprised I didn't show it.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:34

Right? No, Janice definitely embodied the like white and thin archetype of the girl. Like I remember she was always pulling for those girls. Yeah. But in Tyra's defense, Tyra was a lot of times pulling for like the girls of color and like some of the plus size models.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:48

I will say though, sometimes like Janice's role on the show to me felt like a moment for Tyra to be the good guy because like Janice would say something terrible, and Tyra would be like, Oh my gosh. Right. Uh Tyra would be like, Oh, that's not nice.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:00

Oh, not they set Janice's ass up. Oh, we know she'll say something outrageous.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:05

Well, I don't think it was necessarily a setup. I I think Janice was happy to play the role, but I think it was also like there was a purpose.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:11

Right. You know, I can see that.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:17

Yeah, I think.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:18

I think Janice probably just didn't care. I think Janice was just, you know, very white woman about the industry and her. Like, well, we got one black girl already. That's enough.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:27

Well, as Amarosa would suggest, maybe she was her behavior was being influenced by substances of sorts. Um but you know, um, but yeah, if if if you want us to if you want us to jump Janice Dickinson, rate this uh episode five stars or rate this podcast five stars. If you want us to jump that lady, just rate this five stars. Um and if you want to keep up with us across social media, you can follow us all over the place. We are at Honorel NoPod on every which platform that you can imagine. We are on X, we are on Threads, Instagram, we're on YouTube, we're on TikTok, Blue Sky. We're not on Facebook because you know we're millennials, but um yeah, check us out. We're well, we're on the cusp. We're on the cusp. You might be a millennial, you old bitch. We're we're Zillennials. You know what? You I'm not that much older, Phaedra. Just a year, just a year. That's it. We we that thing, we we were in high school at the same time, don't try it. This is some Athens, Georgia bullshit all over it. Okay, you know what? And the words of my career cut the dick.