On a Real Note

Documentary Club: E!'s Dirty Rotten Scandals on ANTM

• Aidan & Noah

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<p><p>Aidan and Noah tackle the inferior ANTM documentary and discuss whether or not there is 2000s reality TV reckoning fatigue.

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SPEAKER_02

Welcome back, note takers. It is Aiden. And this is Noah Aaron. And we are back for yet another episode. This may be a new little format for you. You may not know our faces if you don't follow us on the TikTok. But I don't know. If you somehow know us without knowing on TikTok, because that's the most, you know, that's where we post the most. We're prolific. Kudos to you. Kudos to you. But we're doing a little bit of video now, but you don't have to. You can still do audio only. Whatever medium you prefer. Just try to outload something new. And Noah told me I've been on GLP ones long enough that I can finally do video. So they're going to be thinking I'm crazy because you know damn well.

SPEAKER_03

I did not say that. He didn't say that. He didn't say that. He didn't say that. Now I'm Janice Dickens and body shaming the girl.

SPEAKER_02

Well, you said I was going to lose my plus size modeling deals.

SPEAKER_03

So I don't know. Well, I mean, first of all, if this was America's ex-top model, I would be the plus size contestant on the season.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Yeah, I mean. And I'd be I'd be in fucking craft services, I guess. I don't know. I would trust I would trust you with craft services. Right? I I feel I got um I I know what to do, but you you need to give me a little budget, though.

SPEAKER_03

You need to give me a little budget. I'm I I definitely I feel confident you'd have some like sunships there for us. You'd have some game. Right.

SPEAKER_02

I have vegan options too. Yeah. Some electrolytes, the little, you know, liquid IV packs. A little smart water, not this cheap ass arrowhead. I mean, I'm partial to some Poland Spring, but just no Dasani, no Dasani. No Dasani.

SPEAKER_03

Okay. I guess Onika ain't coming here either, huh? Because she loves Dasani. Well, she also loves something else now, but we won't talk about that.

SPEAKER_02

Well, but if you cannot tell, we are getting into the latest America's Next Top Model documentary, which is under this monom, you know, brand of Dirty Rotten Scandals over on E, which are doing kind of like a multi-part series setup thing, similar to the dark side of reality TV over on Vice. So the first two episodes were about Dr. Phil, weirdly enough. And then the next two after top model are about the prices, right? So it seemed like a weird talk show, game show combo. Those three shows do not go together to me, but I see the vision.

SPEAKER_03

I see the vision. I do love the dirty rotten scandal. Like I love that name choice. I'm just like, this is this, I like that. I feel like it feels almost a little bit salacious. Like it draws me right in and makes me want to watch.

SPEAKER_02

It is, it is. But the fact that it's on E, it's like, okay, are y'all known for documentary?

SPEAKER_03

It's not really one the thing is, I never thought that we would be talking about America's because the thing is it took us a long time to even do an America's Next Top Model episode in the first place. And the fact that we're talking about it twice so close together, like within a month, it's kind of funny to me. But I feel like this docuseries was different enough from the Netflix one that it justifies it.

SPEAKER_02

Slightly different enough, but yeah, no, it was definitely the E style of like interviewing a lot of like pop culture critics and you know contestants as well. Kind of, I don't know. I feel like trying to brand it as a documentary, which maybe they're not. Maybe it's just, you know, it's just dirty rotten scandals. But it was given more, you know, like back in the day, E and VH1 would just be like, here's an hour of ranking shit and do it some bullshit. It was given more that than, you know, structured documentary, but there were some good insights. I like the cultural commentators. I do think the cast and the participants were a little weaker than the Netflix documentary, but that's just me.

SPEAKER_03

I feel like for this, they had a wider array of like contributors. Um it was kind of like they got more small fish this time, where they got more of the big, like a few of the big fish with the Netflix one. You know, because like the Netflix one, they actually had the Jays and Nigel and they had Tyra Fucking Banks. Um versus this one, we got more overall like alumni. We got a wider variety of alumni. The Netflix was very much all early season girls. This was kind of a mixture of early season and later season girls. Um we didn't get necessarily production side of it. Like they got like Ken Mock, um, they got a few other people.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, we got a more executive.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, we got more of the commentators that I guess are like more on par with us professionally.

SPEAKER_02

No, I think Ray Sandy has a little more credits than we do. But she does. But we're on our way. We're on our way. We are on our way. We're gonna we're gonna be walking to a chair in a documentary real soon. Oh, there we I I I pray, I pray for them to call me for something, even if it's something I have nothing to do with. And they better fly either of us out to the same city so we can sit side by side and cackle. I don't want I don't want to be no superimposing. At least use one of my TikTok clips, show it up. Right. I mean, if they better pay me the license it.

SPEAKER_03

I don't know. If$25,000 can get called for some shit, I feel I don't see why we can't.

SPEAKER_02

She got called for like every single one of them little Hulu things that they threw together. Right. Everybody just before we get into some of the specific aspects of it, we'll highlight it's very quick. Two one-hour episodes, something you could easily throw on and finish. Yeah, Airodone E, weirdly enough. Should be available on some streaming platforms. But should we get into the specifics of like who was there?

SPEAKER_03

Yes. So let's talk about, you know, the who of the who in this docuseries. Um, the people that were included. So I wanted to talk first about kind of our non-America's Ex-top model alumni. So these were kind of the commentators, the um, you could call you could call them, I guess, like culture professionals, if you will.

SPEAKER_02

Well, two of them were professors.

SPEAKER_03

So two of them were like actual doctors, like study by film and media. Absolutely. Yes. We had uh Ray Sani, who was a culture critic. We had uh Shemira Ibrahim, who is a culture writer, uh Brian Moylan, who's a culture writer, uh Megan Reynolds listed as a culture editor. Now, some of those, like the culture writer, culture editor, I don't fully understand what some of that means. It kind of just sounds more like commentator.

SPEAKER_02

Um, but then we also I think it means they're just written, you know, for some magazines, do cultural commentary, do podcast appearances and whatnot. Right. Yeah, that's kind of the week followings.

SPEAKER_03

Yes. And then we also had um uh Hunter Hargraves, who is an associate professor of cinema and TV arts at CSU Fullerton. And we also had Raquel Gates, who is a professor of film and media studies at Columbia University, which hey Columbia. I liked the Ivy League. I like Dr. Gates. I was like, ooh, you're astute. Right. No, she definitely brought a little bit more of the academic uh vibe to this. And then finally, we had Perez Hilton, professional longtime clout chaser. Don't know I really didn't get why he was here. He wasn't really featured all that much. He was kind of just interlooped throughout. Um, and I feel like he really offered nothing of substance. Like the most memorable, the most memorable thing I can think is he's like, they were trying to make good TV. Well duh, bitch. Like we know.

SPEAKER_02

Ryan and he had said something about just like, oh wow, what what is too far? Like they didn't really know, even though the cast was diverse. And it's like, did you know what was too far, sir? You were out in people, you were the most evil person of like the 2000s.

SPEAKER_03

Like, I don't think you're one to talk. Yeah, like I don't know. It just felt weird to me because like it's like he didn't really lean into his area of expertise anyway. So he wasn't really providing anything useful. And I also feel like Perez Hilton at this point is not relevant enough just to get the call because of who he is. You know, maybe if this docuseries came out damn near 20 years ago, uh Well, I mean, you know, he he he was there.

SPEAKER_02

You know, he should have offered more about being there, talk about the guys, maybe gossip about the girls, like where the reputation drew in. Like, I think there was a lens that including him could have been very interesting, but it was just kind of like we need familiar faces. Right. I I'm up the camp. This was kind of slapped together and contrary to the other one. And they were like, oh fuck, we didn't get Tyra.

SPEAKER_01

Those projects like this.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, no, this one definitely felt lower budget. I feel like Press like Press Hell, he couldn't even like so much as just commentated on like the culture of the time. Like he could have talked about, like, hey, I was because I mean, especially because he's kind of tried to move away, I think, from his kind of like more toxic past. So he could have said, like, hey, this was the culture of the time. I was running this blog, and this was the vibe, and um, this is why maybe there wasn't as much outrage at the time as there is now. Like, I don't know, he could have offered more, but I agree with you that this definitely felt a little bit less produced than the other one in terms of just like quality control. Um, the Netflix one, it felt very well put together overall. Even though we had our own complaints about it, it did feel very well put together and um a little bit more well thought out. This one felt a little more all over the place. Um of these commentators, I just listened and like some of them appeared very briefly or very sporadically, while others, um, like Ray, were more prolific throughout.

SPEAKER_02

No, for sure. And should we get into some of the contestants that were in at?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. So let's talk about the America's Next Top Model alumni that appeared. Uh what's funny to me is that uh a couple of these girls appeared in this docuseries as well as the Netflix one, which that kind of gagged me because I was like, was like what was the c like what did the contracts look like for these doc like participating in these docuseries? Like y'all, Netflix and and y'all didn't like do anything to like confirm that this wouldn't happen, that you wouldn't have a girl doing both.

SPEAKER_02

But I guess that's what surprised me because I heard that's why Janice wasn't in the Netflix one because she was signed on to this. Yeah. So maybe it's because it was Janice, and at her level, you kind of bake in more exclusivity. Maybe she's asking for more money. And maybe the girl just did it just to do it. But I don't know. They say you can't get paid for documentaries, but I don't know. Is this even legally considered a documentary? I'm saying legally. Right. I feel like it depends on how categorically.

SPEAKER_03

Right. Well, I mean, there's so many different ways you can Yeah, but I'm surprised there was a little bit of overlap. Yeah, but so we got uh Kiana Hill from Cycle Four. Sorry, I don't know why I thought Keanu. Kenya Hill from Cycle Four. We got Britney Brouwer from Cycle Four, we got uh Lisa D'Amato from Cycle Five and All-Stars, we got Joanna House from Cycle Two, we got uh Sarah Hart Shorn from Cycle Nine, Jocelyn Gonzalez from Cycle Eight, we got Angela Preston from Cycle 14 and All-Stars, we got Gina Turner from Cycle 24, and then of course, as we already mentioned, we got Janice uh Dickinson, who was, I believe, a judge on the first four cycles.

SPEAKER_02

I think Yowana made like a quick little mention. I don't know if she like sat down on the chair, but she she was talking, she was talking at some point. Or maybe it was like archival footage, but I remember seeing Yowana yapping about something. It might have been like the OE'd footage, but they did like kind of build in, which I thought was probably like their strongest suit. Have all that archive you know, archival footage, like you know, from E's database. It really strengthened it, which was maybe the only strong point.

SPEAKER_03

Right, because they were able to get it at least they were able to get something from the people who didn't appear, such as Tyra, the Jays, Nigel, Ken Mock, and everything, you know, those people that kind of appeared directly on the Netflix one, they were still able to kind of include them in a way. And in some ways that was kind of funny the way that they twisted their words against him a little bit.

SPEAKER_02

Right? No, because they would like you know, have them sing something and then be like, well, in this clip from 1994, they were saying something, something else. And it did go back that far. I was like, oh damn, yeah, y'all, y'all had the receipts with this one. Y'all had an intern running through the because like 1994, that's a VHS that's like in a library somewhere. Unless they they digitize all their things. I don't know. But no, the documentary to cover a fair amount of things. We got contestant experiences, we got the context of Tyra's career, we got the reality TV of it all, the editing, the manipulation, the production. But I don't know, it felt at least the first episode, the first part, it was definitely very positioned anti-Tyra. Like, yeah. I don't know if I would lead into full-on Tyra hit piece, but honestly, it's giving hit piece. It's giving hit piece.

SPEAKER_03

But well, and that's what I think where I thought it differed a bit from the Netflix docuseries, because you know, the Netflix docuseries, it still made Tyra look bad, but to an extent, it was a little bit more self-inflicted of like Tyra making herself look bad when she was interviewed. Um this one, like you said, if I felt like this was a lot more focused on Tyra's direct involvement um and kind of exploring what she was doing and potentially why. Like we kind of circled back on a few narratives a few times about this thought that Tyra was kind of projecting her own insecurities, traumas, things like that onto these girls, as well as her frustrations. Um and then we also brought up like things like the Tyra versus Naomi comparisons, the idea that Tyra maybe had some bitterness about Naomi's level of reverence in the industry versus her own. Like we really touched on a lot of that with Tyra, kind of like her motivators for why she was doing what.

SPEAKER_02

Which obviously Tyra is synonymous with the brand of America's Next Top Motto, but a lot of it was just like Tyra's impact, Tyra's impact, Tyra's impact. Like there was no context of like Ken or the show's impact on their careers as a whole, as an entity. It was a lot of it was just like Tyra. Which is like why bring it up this way. And even how it begins, it's kind of just like Tyra's career was fading, which I don't know, I was for then. So I don't. I mean, I'm sure it was. I know one, you know, the commentators was like, you know, she was dating Chris Weber, and then she kind of fell out the public eye, and a top model came, and it was you know, back to relevance. There were like newspaper spreads of it, and really it was like a huge casting call. They were showing the footage from that kind of positioning us like this was Tyra's comeback, this was her moment of relevancy, and really a moment to make money. Because they talked about, they really you know, specified how you know top model spread to so many different countries. They were five different international versions. Tyra was banking on them all because she sold the format. And they definitely made sure to be like, you know, Tyra was profiting, Tyra was profit, and Tyra was profit, and like that was everyone's kind of bottom line.

SPEAKER_03

When I found I found it interesting the way that you did open it, like you said, of kind of like phrasing it that Tyra's career had kind of like um and that she was kind of on the comeback. Because the way I always saw, and like you said, like I wasn't really much of a sentient bitch at that point. Um, I don't really have memories of the late 90s, even though I was born in '96. Um, but the way I always saw it is I always kind of saw it as a Tyra was like at the top of her game, like in terms of celebrity and whatnot. And that's part of why the show ultimately got picked up was because of Tyra and who she was and her fame. Um, and then also the way I always saw, and maybe this is just me being kind of brainwashed by the way Tyra's always described it over the years. That's true.

SPEAKER_02

She's been in control of that narrative.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, and she's always spun it as America's Next Top Model was her like brilliant pivot of being like, oh, I'm gonna get out of modeling before they force me out or I age out. Like, I'm gonna kind of get out of it and then pivot into this like multimedia mogul type thing. And it's always kind of a um phrase that like Tyra's this genius and this great businesswoman for that.

SPEAKER_02

Well, that's what I thought too. So you're getting a little bit older, it's like, okay, I need to find the next step. You can't really model forever. I think you know all of them know that. With the truth, it's probably somewhere in the middle. I think this was heavy-handed on like trying to paint Tyra negatively. Yeah. Her star could have been fading a little bit, but I don't think she was like irrelevant. I think there were other things, you know, on the horizon. She definitely couldn't have gotten like TV hosting gigs or like interview people on the red carpet or something. But and she saw more than that. I mean, we all know Tyra liked to dream big and think big.

SPEAKER_03

Um, we also even got like there were discussions uh from Sarah bringing up um the comparisons between America's next top model and a cult, which was I was like, oh okay. Like we're getting an occult discussion. And then also Ray brought up like the topic of like, is Tyra Banks a narcissist? I'm like, okay, we're diagnosing her. And Ray even said, I'm not a doctor, but yeah.

SPEAKER_02

I mean, she got some specific things. She said, hi ego, low self-esteem, trying to clock Tyra for that.

SPEAKER_03

I mean, Tyra is definitely something. I mean, I feel like, you know, a thing I've heard a lot of times is that pretty much anyone that participates or like kind of pursues fame or wants fame and kind of like goes for this on-camera uh position in the world in the entertainment industry or in modeling or in reality television or whatever, that there is like a level of narcissism there.

SPEAKER_02

Mm-hmm. For sure. On top of the fact that Tyler Tyra was so revered, like being a celebrity in the 2000s when it really meant a little more than it did now. And also being kind of like the face of black girls in that generation, kind of like new Tyra. She was in life size, she was aspirational. Of course, Naomi was there too, but yeah, you know, so she's one of the two. And then being on top model, being on TV kind of put that up more. So I definitely think she was probably put on a pedestal, like in life.

SPEAKER_01

Like very highly revered. Yeah. And I just think you go.

SPEAKER_03

I think it's it's crazy just to like look at everything now in the big the bigger picture and see just how hard Tyra's reputation and kind of like her image has fallen over the years. Well, yeah, because I mean people like I really don't see positive discourse about Tyra Banks like on social media, online. Like it's Well, what is there to be positive about?

SPEAKER_02

Right. I mean, I try I try the hot ice cream. I try it. It was in New York, but I was too lazy. It was too cold. Like it was this was a cold winter in New York. I wasn't doing that in time.

SPEAKER_03

That's saying you were the elements were trying you. Yeah, girl, you you heard it. Right. I know. I'm I guess, yeah, I guess I can't complain because where I live, the weather's pretty mild. We don't, we don't, we don't get none of that. But y'all get tsunamis. That's true. And I I mean I live right next to the Elsha. I could get wiped out right now in front of y'all's eyes. Ooh, and you know who got wiped out on the show?

SPEAKER_02

Janice Dickinson. Well, maybe she wasn't, she didn't wipe out on this show, but definitely on surreal life. But I do want to get into the Janice of it all. I feel like she was part of what, you know, one of the biggest selling points of this documentary specifically. And we got to- I do think a lot of her talking points and questions were about Tyra. And like Tyra's person on the show. We're really trying to like drag her down. I didn't know they were beefing like that too. Like the Jays, I feel like kept it a little more semi-professional. Yeah, cute. They kept it cute.

SPEAKER_03

But I think Janice went full of like, nah, Tyra's evil. Well, and the thing with Janice and talking about Tyra is because Janice has talked about Tyra a lot over the years since she was fired from the show. And it's gone very back and forth. It's been very inconsistent in how she's talked about Tyra. Sometimes she has just sometimes she's praised this woman and been like, oh, she's great. She's this, she's that. Other times she's trashed her. And not to be shady, but I feel like at least I don't know what her status is now, but in the past, sometimes it's kind of felt on the status of her sobriety and where she's at with that. Because in a lot of the past footage I've seen of her trashing Tyra, it's been very much where it's like, oh, you look like you're a little lit up on something. Um versus where I've seen her kind of praising Tyra and even apologizing for criticizing her before. It's like, oh, she's in a good sober place now. So I don't know.

SPEAKER_02

No, that inconsistent opinion, I feel like it's just Janice in a nutshell. Because we watched and covered her surreal life season, which she was on with Omarosa. It was kind of like the same thing. It was so like bizarre to watch. And at the at the end, you see the entire house kind of taking Omarosa side over Janice's. Right, which does not. We know how Amarosa is who we're talking about. So I think that's just the scene for you. The show filmed in 2006, and this lady's still doing the same.

SPEAKER_03

Right. Yeah, she's still doing the shenanigans. Um but yeah, no, Janice for for me, honestly, Janice's involvement was a disappointment because that was, I think, one of the things that made me more interested in tuning into this was the fact that Janice was gonna be talking because I'm like, oh, I'm curious what Janice has to say. Right. Um, but she wasn't similar to Perez Hilton, she wasn't really in it that much overall. Like she kind of feels scammed. Yeah, she popped up here and there. And ultimately, she really didn't criticize like she didn't really, she didn't really contribute that much overall to the whole thing.

SPEAKER_02

You know, I would say the two main things she said, at least that I took away from her, was one, her trying to dodge accountability. Yeah. She said, Oh, the producers wanted me to be the Simon Cowell. They encouraged me to be harsh. Maybe I think, but Tyros, but she also said that Tyra scouted her specifically because she was harsh. So I think you're just this is your personality. I don't doubt that they asked her to amp it up, but I think she enjoyed it and relished in it. But also that was kind of the archetype of a competitive reality show. Like you need you need to have a Simon. Like I remember being a kid and cackling at Simon's bullshit. Like it was just kind of of the culture of the time. So I do think she was set up a little bit, but you kind of walked into the role too well, baby. Like you were you were saying the craziest things. Yeah, no, I think um, you have so much teeth, you look like an alien from another planet.

SPEAKER_03

Like damn that was that was crazy. Yeah, it's just like yo damn cat. That was at the camera. Oh god, shit. I think she knocked some shit a few days to like figure out the editing on it. Okay. Yeah, no, I feel like Janice overall, like, and here's my thing is I think that it was my job is never really a valid excuse. I feel like we see a lot of that, like, oh, it was my job to I was hired. Do this is my job. But like Janet said, like she was hired to be a summon cow. I'm like, okay, but like it doesn't really change your involvement. If anything, it's kind of worse. It's like, okay, you got paid to traumatize these girls.

SPEAKER_02

And she didn't even offer, like, oh, that was just the industry. I would try to represent the industry at the time. Like, she didn't even take the cop out. She was just like, or didn't even offer an apology or anything. Because I remember psycho six, like, she cheated, treated Gina so bad. She treated Gina terrible. And Gina was already a terrible model, sweet girl. I love her dops on that show. Like, she didn't need any more bullying from you, Janice. Jade was giving her enough. Jade was giving her enough. Yeah, Gina, if you see this girl, come on the podcast. Come talk about it.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

We would love to talk about it. But I don't know if Gina, I think she dodged in like, I couldn't even find an Instagram for O Girl. Maybe she got married and got a whole new name. Who knows? It's possible. It's possible. But the second thing Janice did that I thought was a bit of a gag. She said that Tyra treated the black contestants more harshly. Because I think it was a very strong statement. So I was like, ooh, I definitely did a little Cynthia Bailey gas. When she did that, I was like, oh, she's doing something. Okay.

SPEAKER_01

It's like something claim.

SPEAKER_03

Well, which I feel like well, especially coming from Janice as I think, obviously a white woman on the show that was also very like nasty to the black girls. Now, whether you want to say that's just her being nasty in general or if it was targeted, that's up to that that's above my pay grade to say. But see, I'm like unlike Janice, because Janice wants to speak above her pay grade, I'm good staying within mine.

SPEAKER_02

You know, funnily enough, I saw some of my TikToks and commentary of people that said that they thought Janice treated the black women better or like tried to champion them and support them. As long as they weren't plus size, she hated all the plus size girls. She hated big girls. She hated the big girls. Which I don't necessarily disagree with. I do think Janice was like, if she saw a black girl she liked it, she like did root for her if she was skinny enough. But I don't know if like my thoughts on that is that I think there were some times where Tyra wanted the black girls to win or to succeed. I don't think Janice's point was like she treated them more harshly due to competitiveness or like jealousy. I do think there was a part that Tyra didn't want them bigger than her, but I think it's like the same essence of like a black professor singing like, you know, three black students in their class, and you know, wanting them to succeed, maybe being a little bit tougher. So you see some extra, you know, potential, some connectionship there.

SPEAKER_03

Kind of like h holding them to a higher standard or yeah. I could see that. And I think um, and I think it it can kind of tie back into like we were discussing earlier, kind of the general narrative in this, um, about how some people in this docuseries felt that Tyra was projecting a little bit of her own traumas and frustrations on these girls. Um, and it could kind of be like her as a black woman in the industry being like, Well, I went through this, so they should be able to handle it too. Right? I don't know.

SPEAKER_02

I feel like it probably got so quickly out of control. Like, my whole perspective is I think Tyra wanted to kind of lend a helping hand to begin with. And then kind of as the show went on, I think she got so caught up in entertainment and her narcissism and building a brand. And realizing it was probably genuinely hard to get all of these girls' careers. Yeah. It was probably hard enough to do what she did with Eva to have, you know, her pinnacle of success is obviously she's got modeling jobs, but real hospice of Atlanta and a a male stripper show on BET isn't exactly an Oscar, you know? I mean, I watch all the Queen's Men. You know, it's it's lovely, lovely program. Shout out to Bolo. You know? So I don't think she cared as much to kind of develop real careers for that. But I think her characters were good in season one, but as it went on, it was Yeah. Tyra, Tyra, Tyra, Tyra, Tyra, you know?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. Well, and I think, and that's the thing is like, I think, I don't think Tyra Banks is some like super villain who was necessarily like plotting out all of these evil things a million steps in advance, and was like, I'm gonna sabotage all these girls' careers. Similar, like what you kind of just mentioned. It's maybe a thing of just being like, I don't really give a fuck to follow up on this. Pretty much. Because really, that seems to be the girl when the girls talk about like kind of post-show with Tyra, a lot of their complaints are more so like she didn't champion me, she didn't follow up with me. I kind of feel like it was more of just Tyra just didn't really care to actually follow through with anything with these girls. And not so much like Tyra necessarily directly sabotaging them. Because like I've never heard a story of like a Nikki stop my bag type of story. I've never heard of like Tyra trying to like keep a girl off of a job or something like that.

SPEAKER_02

Which maybe it went down behind closed doors. Although Daddy said that she did express another express some regret to her after the fact, but it was like, girl, like what's that gonna do now, you know? Right, yeah. I think it could be argued she didn't exactly try to, you know, bust doors down either.

SPEAKER_03

Right. I think she kind of had this, I think she kind of had this mentality that I'm giving you this exposure, and that's like enough. Like, how dare like you, how dare you expect more from me?

SPEAKER_02

Which is crazy. Yeah. Which is why a lot of the experiences on the show that the girls and the women reflected are quite dire, reflective of, you know, typical reality TV manipulation.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. When I feel like they're not the career that ever came. Right. And I feel like they didn't touch on it on the specific thing as much in this docu series as in Netflix, but but the fact that, like, if anything, top model probably hindered their career in modeling more than helped it. They kind of, at the very end, they kind of did mention, like, oh, like, you know, maybe these girls would have never had a career anymore without top model, but who knows?

SPEAKER_02

Who knows? I do want to quickly touch on some of the model experiences. Because what was new to me as someone who didn't watch fully into cycle 24 was the Gina Turner story, the model had Alapecia, who you know, shared her story. But what were your thoughts on that? Like, were you familiar with her?

SPEAKER_03

I was familiar with her. I remember her season because I remember tuning into that season after not watching for a while. Um, and yeah, I what I found really interesting was she mentioned the editing on the show and how during the makeover situation. Well, because okay, so first of all, was during the um the audition when they said when she said that basically they had brought up her Playboy past and kind of grilled her on it. Um and something that I noticed about this is that she said that when she kind of didn't really express like shame or regret over doing Playboy, that she said Tyra seemed kind of like angry at that and a little bit frustrated by that. And it kind of ties back to me because I feel like Tyra has like a thing with like sex work, or like she very much looks down on it because I remember I mean I mean, obviously Angela, you know, getting fucking disqualified from being the winner purely for doing sex work. Um, and then also I remember, I don't remember the girl's name, but I remember in another like in an earlier season during auditions, there was a girl that was a pole dancer, and the judges, like the second she walked into the audition, they were like were really grilling her on it. And the girl, like the girl made a comment about like, well, you know what, it's kind of like modeling, and then Tyra was not happy about that. Tyra kind of was like, it's not modeling, it's not the same thing. And like you could tell Tyra was salty about it. So Tyra was just kind of a thing with sex workers, first of all. But also back to Gina, she mentioned that they kind of grilled her about the Playboy thing, and that's what was actually making her kind of like cry and emotional, but that they edited all of that out and made it look like she was immediately emotional about the alopecia thing. Um, and then later she mentioned that during the makeover episode, what originally Tyra said in the video for her was like, Oh, we're gonna get you a new wig. And that's like what she thought it was gonna be going into it. Um, but then they later edited it in to make it look like Tyra told her ahead of time, like, oh no, we're gonna be shaving your hair, like what's left of your hair off.

SPEAKER_02

I know. And then something she said that kind of really stuck with me that she was like, if you watch the show, they edited it to make me seem so empowered, but I hated it. Which usually you see about contestants getting an edit that makes them, you know, more negative or come across worse. But she came across supposedly better, like in a more positive framing, but it was so untrue to her, you know, life that it was detrimental, which I thought was, you know, I would never thought about it that way. So I thought that was really you know eye-opening.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. And almost yeah, it almost feels like it was damage control because at that point that was like a later season. So I'm sure they were probably they'd probably already gotten shit about the makeover of it all and like how kind of how awful they were to these girls with the makeovers. So it almost feels to me like them kind of trying to like turn it into this like empowering moment was like a response to that criticism. Right. And then the Yeah, instead of actually changing the issue and like fixing it, instead it's like, well, let's just edit it to make it look better.

SPEAKER_02

Just copping it out. And I thought it was interesting she brought up that like that was the only season that didn't have like a makeup sponsor, like, you know, cover girl cosmetics, like you know, one of those things. And so it's the one that oh, you know, made Maybelline, you know, wasn't one of those, it was Pantina hair brand. She didn't have hair, and then she's cast, and they made that a whole big story, which is wild. And I think it's something that doesn't really get brought up in the documentaries, but how much role the the sponsor plays in like the end game and choosing the winner and like the framing and the aesthetic of the season, because you could just not be for certain, you could be the best model in the world, but like say the brand is freaking, I don't freaking know, shame moisture. You know, you might not win though, you might not get chosen. Like certain brands have different aesthetics. So, look, some people have a more high fashion look, some people have more of a commercial look. Some people are better at hair, some people got lit-ass lashes, like there's a little nuances, and I feel like they never really too got into like who the sponsors liked, who they didn't like. I thought that would have been a fun perspective for either any of the documentaries to kind of dive into, which they both really didn't.

SPEAKER_03

Right. And that's actually I'm I'm really glad you mentioned that too, because that kind of to me segues us into our next uh topic, which is our opinion, like our general overall opinions on this show, on the docu series. Um, and that was actually something I put in my notes that I would have loved to learn more about, and I was disappointed that we didn't get it in either Docu series. I would have loved some information or confirmation on just how much of a role Tyra actually had in who went home and who won. Because I feel like with a lot of other like reality competition shows like this, where there's kind of like the whole the host figure that's like deciding the eliminations and stuff, like we've gotten a lot of tea over the years with those shows about like, oh, well, production actually had more control over who went home. But I feel like with American Sex Top Model, we've really never gotten anything about how much influence Tyra had versus how much influence production or the network or like you said, the brands have.

SPEAKER_02

You're right. Is it Ken Mock? Is it the network? Is it like the sponsors? I know that Tyra has said that she's gotten outvoted for Takara. So clearly it's some kind of, or maybe she was just saying that, or maybe some kind of like shared voting thing or like consent disagreement. But I'm sure it's like Tyra has more of a say than like Janice. Like maybe Ken Mock and the network and like Panteen or you know, CoverGirl or whoever, Maybelline, has more, maybe more say to, or like equal as say with the network and Ken Mock. It's definitely something. Yeah, you know, they never got too deep into that.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, because obviously on the show, they very much frame it, like on America's Ex Top Model, they very much frame it as like Tyra's deciding this, like Tyra's picking. Right. But yeah, no, for sure.

SPEAKER_02

For the the narrative of TV, that makes sense.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. But yeah, that's something I wish we'd gotten more of. But was there anything else that like you were really disappointed was missing from this, or that you were disappointed with how they covered it?

SPEAKER_02

I think there were a lot of women who were showed up as participants who were just like there for two lines who really didn't get much of a narrative or a story. And even if they did, it seemed like it was kind of just glossed over. Like Brittany, who was in the blackface shoot, didn't really speak about the infamous blackface shoot that much. It was kind of just like there. And at first, when she showed up, I didn't really recognize her because she, even on the show, she was kind of just like, you know, contestant. So I was like, who's this news? I thought she was like a studio exec, because she has like this newscaster hair and look. I was like, oh, this is a studio exec. Turns out she does work in broadcasting, so she has like a broad, very broadcasty look.

unknown

Right?

SPEAKER_02

You don't think she didn't think she was given the weather girl, like, you know, broadcast? Well, I didn't broadcast. And there's a storm front coming. You know, whatever. You know, she didn't do much. Like, I wanted because she said during the shoe, I was feeling it. Like, what were you feeling? Like, what how were you directing? Like, did that like did that impact you negatively? I haven't been in black base on TV. Like, I mean, I don't just see how she wouldn't want to talk about it that much. I do see that, but that's why they called you, girl.

SPEAKER_03

Right. Yeah, no, it was weird. And that was kind of like something in my notes was that I felt like there were a lot, like, like you mentioned um certain people that were there and didn't really actually contribute much or were barely shown. They barely got any screen time in this. Um, and then also just in general, a lot of topics or moments were like something would get brought up and then it would get dropped really quickly. I'm like, oh okay, like I've I wanted to hear more about that, but okay.

SPEAKER_02

And like Jasmine, I remember she had this strong talking point of like, oh, they really knew how to found people who had issues, who were in situations. I thought they were gonna expand on that more because Jasmine specifically has talked about like being plucked out of a domestic violent situation, like on the top model. Like she was supposed to be on the season before the season she won, the cycle she won. But they didn't like she passed psych tests, is the rumor. Like, I don't know if that's confirmed or not by her. That's like kind of like the consensus to gossip on Reddit, if you will. And if she got onto the next season, they kind of like bucked her up to a winner. Which Tyra does like to kind of make this wounded bird winner approach sometimes. Like we kind of see who she kind of like tried to push to a win. Like we see with Angeli, who was supposed to win, kind of has her, you know, backstory, her narrative that she overcame. Obviously, that didn't happen. Well, she was filmed winning, it didn't air. And then Tiffany, who famously was kind of like, you know, more from around the way, didn't have like the strongest upbringing, and really wanted it. I think Tyra wanted to make that kind of a story and a narrative. I think Tyra really was pushing her to win, which is kind of why she went off the fucking rails. But she ain't need to say all that she could. Want to reiterate that.

SPEAKER_01

But yeah.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

You know, I feel like they just dropped the ball in terms of like getting some stronger narratives or really kind of deep getting deep into like these more pivotal moments. If maybe they they could have tightened the cast a little bit, maybe got less participants. Like there was no real direction. Like, whoever was the director of this was kind of just like, let's ask some questions. Like, there was no overarching kind of theme except let's drag Tyra.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Which I like we know, like we've been doing on TikTok since 2020.

SPEAKER_03

Like, you know? Yeah. It almost felt like, and like, yeah, like on TikTok since 2020. Almost because they kept they referenced kind of like 2020 a few times as kind of like the reckoning. Um, they didn't use the word reckoning, but like it that's kind of what it felt like. Um but it almost felt more like a a compilation of everything we've been kind of hearing about since like the pandemic era, where like people were talking about the show and revisiting it. And it almost it almost feels like this specific docuseries would have made more sense if it came out around that time.

SPEAKER_02

You know, for sure. Like there was nothing exactly groundbreaking, but I do like that they kind of got more incremental stories in terms of like girls from later cycles. Like we didn't hear from Gina and Taco 24 that I found that, you know, insightful more interesting. I mean, Lisa always running her mouth about Tom Milo, so I thought she's not she's not saying anything new. I think she's like a she won all-stars, she's like a big figure, you know, the brand and the community. So hearing from her was good, but I don't know. I just wanted to hear from Takara. You know, I love meeting Takara Jones. Like, why was she in none of the? I know she's done some interviews and has spoken to it, but I guess they didn't want to talk to like some of the success stories, I guess. Or I'm also I feel like Eva, Yaya, and Takara probably is like, I'm over talking about this, you know.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, well, I mean, even recently since the Netflix docuseries came out, Eva's been kind of like I've seen her on a pro-Tyra, right? Talk shows, yeah. And she's been like, she's been kind of like in this weird, like kind of on the fence a little bit where she's like, oh, it's great that the girls are staring, are sharing their stories and their experiences. And but then she's also being like, by the way, I had a very positive, wonderful experience. I didn't experience any of the things these girls are talking about. And like also like Tyra, da da da, like kind of like being a little bit nice towards which I get. Like, I I understand if like maybe she doesn't, and maybe she really didn't have a bad experience. She could be being completely honest about that. And I could also see where she's like, I think she's probably the most famous alumni. So right. So I can see why it would be difficult for her to go and trash Tyra, you know.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, no, for sure. I think also Tyra and her probably like had more of a personal relationship. I think she kind of built her up more. I know I feel like Yaya probably had less of a I thought Yaya got to where she is by like being Yaya. Yeah. And also using like a kind of different acting name than that. Because she's kind of more known for the acting now than the modeling. So I feel it's kind of like a different bag. I feel like she would drag Tyra, but she's too classy. She was too classy then when she was like 21. Yeah. She's not gonna do it now with wisdom.

SPEAKER_03

I mean, yeah, I think I think a lot of these girls that participated in the show uh are maybe more evolved than Tyra.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. I will say, well, I listened to Takara in an interview. She kind of had a similar sentiment to Eva. Like, oh, things went well for me, but it was definitely difficult. But she also kind of centered her own experiences, like as the plus size girl, the plus size model, and like them being rude and stuffed to her. So I don't think she could have been added to the documentary, but maybe they didn't want too much of a success story. Or they maybe they wanted specifically this one, and they probably wanted more drag me of Tyra.

SPEAKER_03

Because I feel like in the Netflix doc, it was a little bit more mixed. Like you had some of the girls interviewed being a little bit more generous towards Tyra, and some of the girls being a little bit more like, da da da da. Um, versus with this one, it seemed like pretty much every girl had something, something rude to say about Tyra. I mean, yeah.

SPEAKER_02

But like, what are the streets saying? I feel like people are definitely talking about this one a little bit less. Maybe it's some fatigue. Maybe E doesn't have as much marketing. Because you can easily, you know, click on Netflix and be like, oh, Tomorrow documentary, you know, they'll headline it. But you know, E's network channel, they don't really I don't really want to ad for this, it's just some social media. So I feel like there's been less buzz, but I think people are kind of just over hearing about like I bet there's so many ways to say the 2000s were bad and reality TV reflects that.

SPEAKER_01

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02

I I know we we we tied up, so we we have a lot of episodes talking about it, but yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, no, I agree. I think, I mean, I think A, the fact that this one didn't I think A, the one the fact that Netflix is kind of like a bigger just monster to kind of push out content and promote content. Um, I think obviously the Netflix docuseries, it probably benefited from coming out first. And then also the fact that they landed who they landed, such as the Jays and Tyra and stuff like that. Like I feel like this one. It's like Yeah. One of the big one of the biggest things this one had going for it was that, like, oh, Janice is on this one. Because I think people were disappointed that Janice wasn't in the Netflix one and she was barely there. Oh I feel like Netflix, the Netflix docuseries really had a lot more working in its favor than this one.

SPEAKER_02

And it was a bit more of a production budget, like asking like stronger, tighter questions, definitely more of like a constructed narrative. Like you could tell what story they were trying to tell and what they were leading up to. Well, this one felt very frenetic, and like the scenes could have been everywhere, like maybe this could have been an episode one, maybe this could have been an episode two. Like, I didn't get how they even divided things. It made no sense.

SPEAKER_03

Right. I I barely I barely bothered dividing my notes between episode one and two because I was the same damn thing.

SPEAKER_02

I mean, yeah, I mean I structured my notes like that ahead of time, but I was like, there's no need to do it. Yeah. I could have saved myself the time. But I know there was some like online talk amongst the contestants regarding this, as there is. So shit, you know how Lisa was talking about, oh, they covered us with paper bags. I don't know why I did that voice. On the other hand, they covered up with paperbags and gave them the headphones. Well, Shannon came out and was like, um, that ever happened. That's untrue. We had eye masks and headphones, but never paper bags. But then Angeli came back and confirmed that they had paper bags. So I don't know. I feel like that was, I don't know, that seems like a regular reality TV mechanism. Maybe they didn't, they don't need to do it as long, but I feel like, you know, stopping codests from knowing where they're going, maybe stopping them from hearing things or seeing things like par for the course. I hear about it on Survivor all the time, between like challenges and tribal councils or whatnot. I do see what Lisa's trying to say with the Stanford Prison Experiment and trying to isolate you from sensations and whatnot. But reality TV as a mechanism is a Stanford prison experiment. Like you couldn't leave the house without you want, like without wanting. These producers have power over you. You're competing for challenges. I feel like reality TV is like, I feel like, you know, simulation, a version of the Stanford Prison Experiment. But then Bree, who was in the Netflix documentary, who we know works in prison reform now, she was very upset about the um comparison to the Stanford Prison Experiment. As somebody who's worked with prisoners, she's like, it was nothing like that. So varying perspectives, varying perspectives.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, when I can see where Lisa would be on social media maybe a little bit more sensitive to reactions to this or whatever. Um, because I mean she made it clear that the only reason she even did all stars in the first place was because she wanted to change the public perception of her because of the edit that or kind of the way she came off on the her first season. And then I'm sure to a degree, I'm sure she participated in this docuseries for the same reason to kind of change the public perception of her.

SPEAKER_01

And it's gonna work again.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, and one thing I've learned from being a reality. Quality TV, big fan for years and years and years, is that trying to change the perception of yourself hardly ever works out. You know, on Drag Race, Fifi O'Hara was the villain her first season. She came back for All-Stars thinking she was gonna get a new edit. They fucked her over again. Jerry Manthy was the villain on her first season, Survivor. She came back for All-Stars thinking that it was gonna go better for her. She got booed off the reunion stage. You know, it just doesn't go well when you come back with this plan of like, ooh, like you think that the producers that screwed you over the first time that they're gonna do you better this time.

SPEAKER_02

Right. Unless you really, really change, or it's like a competition show or something, like there's enough of a format change. Because I was like, there were some redemption stories on Bad Girls Club. I know you don't know Valentina, I know you're not that familiar with the franchise, but I think Valentina on Bad Girls Club had a lovely arc evolving from like the biggest villain to really probably one of the most healed. And like she didn't go to like well-liked by the fans, but the fans, I think, acknowledged, like, oh, you're changed now. You're like, we see it. But it was also probably like being 21 and be like seeing yourself on TV for the first time is probably like, oh.

SPEAKER_03

To some people, it's like, oh, you know, it's really like I feel like it has to happen more organically, though. I feel like the thing is you can't when it comes to the way people are gonna perceive you or the way you're gonna be edited, or the way anything's gonna happen, like you just can't force it. You really can't.

SPEAKER_02

And it's been 20 years. Yeah.

unknown

Right.

SPEAKER_02

And she's like always been on podcasts and stuff, just like it's being grander in life about it. Like, I don't know. We it's yeah. Like Lisa's credibility is already something, you know? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

What I I feel I feel bad for her because I mean, I'm sure I mean with everything she's been through anyway, and then I'm sure it sucks to have it come out the way that it does on reality TV and have people like react to a certain way and everything. But yeah, at some point it just it's what it is.

SPEAKER_02

But I think without a doubt, America's Next Time Motto is still one of the most culturally relevant reality shows that we have had. It took America by storm and it is still being talked about today. Psycho 25 may or may not be coming, so there's that. I do want to ask you though, if there's another franchise that has like a reckoning or something coming, what would you like to see?

SPEAKER_03

So I it's kind of hard to say because I feel like a lot of them have had like mini reckonings. Um, so I don't know which one is gonna boil over to be the next big one. But I would say I feel like if another franchise is gonna have that moment, I I would like, and I this is kind of impossible because of the era we live in, but I feel like whenever this happens, there's so much chatter on social media first before we get things like this, like actual productions, that by the time the production comes out, we've already heard the bombshells. We know what's like we know what they are. And so I don't know. That's kind of like my thing is I would like for it to be more of like kind of like a gag and a surprise where I'm like watching the docuseries that comes out about it. I'm like, oh my God.

SPEAKER_02

But it's hard. If you're such a super fan of something, you might know of like the rumors or the gaggles of TR, like the little hints of it. So maybe hard to get the bombs, but I see what you mean. But I, for one, I don't know. I think the show might need to end first, but I think there was a lot with survivor. We could do like a six to eight episodes of a Survivor one, just like behind the scenes, even back to season one, like I'm trying to push people to get voted off. Yeah. I know with this most recent season, we haven't we have both haven't watched like 10 seasons, but I know there was a lot of like drama about like the pregaming, this most recent season, not 50, but 49 or 48. Like you know how the conductions are like in Fiji, like supposed to not talk to each other or whatever, but like kind of people were like whispering, making deals and whatnot, like then. So I want to know about that. I want to know about that rumor about Alexis and James getting kicked off because they were trying to stuff into some food. Like, there's enough tea and like evolution of like culture and society that you can get into on Survivor, like having to input that PLC rule. I want to hear from Visepia as the first black winner versus you know the black players now. And I mean there's enough drama and maps that you can get into, like how Jeff treated people like off-camera, duly get into a relationship with Jeff. Like, there's enough, but I feel like because they're so big, it might be too protected. Like, I don't know if CBS is gonna let that happen.

SPEAKER_03

That's the thing. With I think with it being CBS, I think it's almost treated as a little bit more precious. Um, and I think that to a certain extent, I feel like shows like Survivor, even though they still are reality TV shows, and even though they're still they kind of play by the same rules as other reality TV shows, I feel like people see Survivor as like a less trashy show. So I feel like there's less of this like um thirst for like salacious tea and whatnot. Versus I feel like when it comes to America's next top model or toddlers and tiaras or bad girls' club or flavor of the club.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, yeah. The bad girls club documentaries that happen too. Not that call me for that one. We want to participate. You wouldn't watch a show. You could stay your white ass at home. I I want to be there. Uh-uh. I'm I if you're going, I'm going.

SPEAKER_03

I'm tagging along. I don't care. You're gonna hold you about hold the the boom light, the boom mic for me? You gonna hold my lighting? I might hit you with the boom mic. Um it's gonna be bad girls come on that set too. Um but yeah, no, I I just think that with the shows that are kind of like perceived by the public as like trashier, I feel like those shows are more vulnerable to this type of expose. For sure.

SPEAKER_02

But at this point, we're running out of shows. Right.

SPEAKER_01

They're gonna come up with something too, and they gotta come up with something too. Right, I know.

SPEAKER_03

But yeah, I think overall, I would say like final thoughts on this docuseries. A little bit disappointing. No, I mean, I I think had I not seen the Netflix one first, and this is where I really think the Netflix one kind of benefits from coming out first. I think had I not seen the Netflix one first, I might have liked this one better. Um, but just overall, I feel I just felt a little disappointed, a little bit like, okay, whatever. Like it it was what it was.

SPEAKER_02

Like it wasn't like if they like combined the efforts, like maybe, you know, put together the bandwidth, get everybody under one roof, yeah. And just do like a better, like a five part, like a four part, you know, right.

SPEAKER_03

Cause I feel like with some of the tea and some of the participation in this one, but like under that like higher Netflix budget, that would have been great. I feel like, yeah, like yeah, I I agree with you. Combining the two would have made I feel like we had disappointments with the Netflix one too. Like we definitely have some criticisms. I feel like combining what worked from both would have been great.

SPEAKER_02

Right. Are you but it's like a Bugs Life and Ant. So they're both like production company trying to sprint to put it out. So it's kind of like a race. Um not compared. I don't know what was going on. I mean good analogy. And I'm Team Ants. I'm Team Ants, low-key.

SPEAKER_03

Ants was live. Well, I'm Team Bugs Life just because of our little our little mutual friend that looks like a Bugs Life. I knew you were I knew you that that was rude.

SPEAKER_02

Well, I'm gonna do it. I knew you were gonna go there though. I'm not gonna say his name. He probably doesn't listen to the podcast, so it's okay. But you can follow us at OnreonoPot on all platforms if you want to know more from us, hear more from us, see more clips. Please subscribe, rate, and review. Do all the things wherever you're listening. If it's YouTube, hit that subscribe button. You'll hear more from us because we'll be getting into it. I think next week, probably the Mormon Broads, Secret Life of Mormon Wives. I don't know. We'll talk about it.

SPEAKER_03

We might get into it. We might get into it.

SPEAKER_02

All right, well, someone canceled Hulu, so no. I don't know how. We're gonna watch. Well, well, there's a will, there's a way. We've won that. Period. Well, thanks, y'all. Peace out. Have a good one.