Your Ego Is Your Enemy, Not Your Lack of Talent

Most sales teams don’t fail because of skills.

They fail because of ego, culture, bad coaching, and lack of adaptability.

The market changed.
AI changed workflows.
Buyers changed behavior.

But many teams still operate like it’s 2015.

This episode breaks down what actually creates high-performing sales teams today — from coaching and personality traits, to leadership, AI integration, and managing performance without destroying culture.

It also goes deep into the hardest part of sales leadership:

Handling egos.

Because top performers need confidence.
But unmanaged ego destroys teams.

You’ll learn how elite sellers think, how modern teams are adapting to AI, and what separates average sales cultures from elite ones.

No corporate theory.
Just real sales dynamics.

In this episode, you’ll learn

• The personality traits of elite sellers
• How AI is changing daily sales execution
• How coaching impacts team performance
• The hidden role ego plays in sales teams
• How to create stronger sales culture and accountability
• The evolution of sales teams in the AI era
• How top-performing teams actually operate

Thanks to the partners supporting Confessions of a Seller.

🔗 Jason AI SDR by Reply
They’ve built one of the strongest multichannel outbound platforms in the market — taking teams from research to meeting booked in one system, enabling modern Allbound execution.

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Connect

Alan Ruchtein https://linkedin.com/in/alanruchtein
The Modern Seller: https://alanruchtein.com
Kevin Meyer https://www.linkedin.com/in/kevin-meyer-2931b9b1/
Instagram https://www.instagram.com/confessionsofaseller/
TikTok https://www.tiktok.com/@alan.ruchtein
Spotify Podcast: https://open.spotify.com/show/2dAEChz6zKS4BsqIm4Mexn?si=812eaf6ef673458a
Apple Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/confessions-of-a-seller-podcast/id1886097916
Amazon Music: https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/4e1b9a58-8c28-4d07-aae5-272f87980895/confessions-of-a-seller-podcast

Transcript

0:00

Being a seller in 2026, it's not an easy game. For that reason, we invite a special guest to our podcast today, and you will learn how the strategy can be applied, and of course, how you need to move forward in 2026 to be a high achiever. But before we get to the point, Ellen, we don't want to forget, man. We have to we have to say thanks to our main sponsor, reply.io. They are basically helping us, working with us, and joining us throughout all these episodes. And the one thing that I want to highlight is JSON, the AI S D R. That is one thing that we use every single day. And I'm not kidding, it can go from prospecting to booking meetings. While we are doing this episode, it's booking meetings on my behalf. So check all the comments in the description, check them out. And if you have any doubts about how to use it, you can for sure reach out to us and we will help. But yeah, without further ado, let's begin. Let's begin. Andy, um, I remember a couple of weeks ago we were having a beer and uh I said we had a good conversation about sales. And I thought, um, yeah, man, why would you not be open to join one of our podcasts? And he said, I'm in. I'm in. But before we get to that, excuse me. Could you introduce yourself and thanks for, of course, uh for coming to our episode. Welcome, man. Welcome to the confessionary. Thank you very much. That that's what happens with beers, right? You know, you have a couple and then you commit to stuff you exactly. You didn't initially uh you were not expecting, right? Yeah, that's what they say. They say that all the business, when I when we are talking, we're going to talk about a lot of things from enterprise to SMB, your experience, your past, your history, background, and so on. But there's something that I got from a former boss of mine that said, hey, Alan, you're when I was in selling enterprise, he told me the business is made and the deal is done with alcohol in the middle. Like you need to go there, you need to uh build the relationship with all the stakeholders and so on, but you will seal the deal when you go out, when you have dinner, when you have a wine, a beer with them. So, so yeah. So, yeah, let's let's break a lot of uh strategies and frameworks and ideas down. But man, it's your friend, it's my friend right now. So let's get some confessions out of here. Absolutely. Andy, could you just explain a little bit uh about about your sales career? Where did it start? And um, yeah, where are you today? That would be great. Just to walk uh walk our audience through that so they get a little bit of understanding about your profile. Absolutely. So um I started off my career actually not far from here, um in um you know, a place called Corneya for for those of us that are listening uh in Barcelona now or in Spain, um, as an SDR, right? So um started selling um disaster recovery, backup systems, you know, got into the IT space. Sounds interesting. Disaster recovery. Disaster recovery. What does it mean? I wish I'd know what it means. Walk me through it because I have no idea what you're talking about. Just imagine a 20-year-old walking into like a new role as an SDR selling this complex IT solution. Okay. So uh that's what I did uh for a spell. And I would say that was like the foundations of like you know, what you typically get as an SDR, right? That that good old playbook. I then transitioned, I got uh offered uh an opportunity to relocate to Ireland. So, you know, back then in this was 2018, that was like one of the tech hubs, that was the place to be in Europe, uh, besides a few others, uh, of course. So I went into um into uh uh indeed.com uh and big company. Yeah, big, big company. So what what what are you you're doing specifically there and your responsibilities a little bit to understand how sales impacted your life and your and your skills as well? So I joined as an AE uh and I went to you know your typical ranks, right? So started with like selling it to SMBs, your corner shops, what in the US they refer to your mom and pop shops, you're trying to sell a sponsor ads to very small shops all around uh Spain. And then, you know, went through uh mid-market and then eventually enterprise, where I started selling into like southern Europe. So did a bit of everything, and that's where I kind of build the foundations before like so did a bit of everything, and that's where I kind of build the foundations before like transitioning into like more SaaS and FinTech, which is what I did uh later. It's actually interesting because we were discussing this the other day, right? Uh Kevin. Um it's it's funny how different sales careers go in different directions. Mine went from like you know, SDR, SMB, mid-market enterprise, and now I'm down to SMB again. Right. So what it's a really interesting one because you know, people uh actually exactly what you said, you should go up the ladder, like starting from uh mid SMB, mid-market, then enterprise, and then I don't know, direct or whatever. But um what do you think was the biggest challenge, right, from moving from an enterprise, because you have a have to have a completely different mind mindset selling an enterprise than then going back to SMBs, right? Uh what what what would be the main differentiation point, what you would say discovered? I think for me it was just trying to get out of my comfort zone, right? Um, I think uh, you know, a lot of people can maybe relate to this. There's a point in your career where you're doing really well. Uh you're blessed enough to, you know, know your your stuff, work on your craft, you're doing good money, but then it's like, okay, what what are we doing after this? Yeah. So for me, that kind of breaking point was 2020. COVID scenario, like and all the crazy stuff happening. Exactly. And um, I I just felt like, you know what? I think I I I want to be selling something different into different people um who are actually making the decisions involved in like really the nitty and gritty of the business. Yeah. Now really interesting, interesting because I I do enterprise now, and I I I see that it's much more politics than actually selling, right? It's a completely different game, right? Maybe it's really I feel more to be a project manager. Okay. Because you need to sales skills at some point. You need to sales skills. You need to kind of you know put the right people in place, you need to have um certain uh project finished, then you get to the next steps, then you need to speak to procurement, and you need to. Sometimes I miss this feeling where you you know this. The hype of the SB of closing every single day and every single week. You you see the people in your organization closing those deals in a weekly base, a monthly base, and you sit there until you get this bigger deal in. So yeah, I completely completely get get get your point there. I have one point that now that you're mentioning, you mentioned, Andy, that you were selling at the beginning for moms and pops shops, for example, right at the beginning when you were in the SB space, and then you were selling to five uh top 500 um uh listed companies or public listed companies. So, can can you walk us through a little bit before going back to your story and your background and COVID and why that changed in your life? Can you walk us through a little bit what are those skills or those differences or those things that you learned over the uh the journey that you say, hey, in SMB, I would do it in this way. Selling to a huge multi-billion dollar company, this is how you should do it, and how that impacted your commissions, your uh performance, your way of selling as well. Yeah. So I think when when you when you sell into SMBs, right? The the the good thing about that space is you often get to speak to like the founder of the company. Right. So why do you think that would be good? Well, because uh you you the the conversation shift, right? It gets I wouldn't say more personal, but it gets definitely more direct in many, many ways. Straight to the point. Straight to the point, right? Like you've you've set a company, you've got one or two employees, you have no time to waste speaking to like a sales guy unless you feel that they get it from the get-go. Okay. Yeah. So basically selling to the SMB, you would it would be okay to assume that you're saying that, hey, speed matters for a CEO or for a founder that has two or three or five employees. They want to solve things right now. 100%. Okay. So do you know when when I I would say like the the smoke selling detector is at its peak? You know, absolutely. Three minutes into the conversation, those people want to understand does this guy get it? You know, or or not. And I'm not selling enterprises not that way, right? Um, but I just mean I think the speed and the overall flow of the conversations, they're more direct and more impactful from my perspective. Okay. And what are the skills that you would say, hey, they are completely different? Because besides the bullshitting uh CEO, a smoke seller, that at some point from a selling perspective, we are trying to sell at whatever the cost it is, right? Uh, even because of the quotas and the impact and the pressure of our manager and so on and so forth. But um, how do you shift it? Because it's not easy, and it's everyone seller's dream going from SB to enterprise because of the money, because of the status, because of a lot of things. How do you shift and how you evolve yourself in those skills, in those um yeah, strategies or in those uh environments that you were selling? Yeah. So I would say like going up the ladder, so to speak. I'm not really a fan of like classifying enterprise like salespeople in general as far more experienced or advanced. I agree with you. I honestly not a fan of that. Um, but I think we could argue for the purpose of the conversation, we can refer to it as like, you know, going up the ladder. Exactly. Some somehow. Yeah. Uh I agree with you, Kevin, on the fact that it gets a little bit more political. And that doesn't necessarily need to mean like in a bad way, right? It just means the overall dynamics of the organizations and how they operate is just different. Correct. So what gets people to move the needle is different because you know, if you're a founder, um, I mean, you're kind of playing with your own money or somebody else's money, which is even worse, right? Yeah, busy money. Exactly. Yeah. But if you, let's say, you know, you're the head of operations in a very big company, it's not really your money, um, no matter how invested you're in the project. So, what that means to me is the overall dynamics of like the decision-making process, who else is involved? You know, how quickly can you actually make a decision? Can you make a decision? Yeah, it's just different. Yeah. How do you influence those those processes? Like, um, what are the things that we usually tend to do and that we should recommend to the audience? Because sometimes what I've seen in a lot of projects when I'm helping sellers in enterprise deals, like we tend to, yes, for sure, say what we're always being taught of. Like it's like involved, like all the different stakeholders, try to be relevant when you are reaching out to them or when you're negotiating, having a mutual action plan, and so on and so forth. But then there is a reality. The seller is just sending emails after the first demo or the second demo. Yeah. Hey, did you check my proposal? Hey, I'm sending an email because your colleague is not getting back to me. How do we actually influence those deals up to a point? I think one thing which is extremely important is really building, try to build a champion inside of those organizations. I'm not sure if you guys agree, but I realized when I had a good champion in place, I can ask them this tricky question, right? Do you really think this will happen? Yeah, business gonna invest that amount of money to move the needle and bring it to the next steps, right? I think that's super important, um, definitely. Another thing I think um, yeah, having a good champion in place, um, mutual action plan you already mentioned. It's it's a completely different dynamic, as you were saying, Andy. And and I would like to go back a little bit to your story. Um, you said, hey, I wanted to move in COVID or to shift a little bit into something that I at some point I understand that it's like I want to see how the impact is being happening when I help someone or sell something. So walk us through a little bit of your story as well, like more from a personal perspective. Why sales? How do you see sales evolving from 2020, as you were saying, till now for the next five years? Uh, what's your perspective on what's happening with all this AI revolution and the FOMO out there? I mean, I guess that's the million-dollar question, right? Yeah, absolutely. Um we want to know from you. Yeah. Uh so I think from look, from my perspective, it's something I talk about often with my my colleagues in uh, you know, other mates and colleagues I've made through the years. Going back to like the Dublin scene, right? Uh, which was back then like the hub. It's funny because when I bump into like former colleagues or which are now friends, I think we all agree that those were like the golden days of almost order taking. Okay. You know, so it was easy to sell at some point, you're saying. Yeah. Um I I wouldn't say you know, across all industries, across all markets. Definitely where I joined, it wasn't the case because you know we were kind of the underdogs in the market. But generally speaking, it was it did feel a bit more that way. I think now the reality shifted, processes are more sophisticated, right? And then we've got this new friend called ChatGPT who doesn't like to lie, right? Yeah. So everyone is just a click away from really understanding, you know, whether what you're saying is actually what the product does. Yeah, yeah. And what the level of service you're promising is actually what other people think the level of service is. So that reality, I think look, the the there's people that look at AI and and and look at the half the, you know, the you could look at it as the half empty glass or half full glass. I think to me, I agree with you, yeah, it's gonna be like you're either on one side of it or the other side. It it just depends on on you and how you execute and implement and use it, right? Like now that you mention that, I have this dilemma and I have this internal uh problem or question. Uh, and I would like to your your insight as well, Kevin, jumping here. That it's so if in 2020, 2018, 2020, 2021, and I agree with you, I was in the space as well as a seller. Um, I I've been working in no-code chatbot builders, then I I had experience uh as a sales manager in Revolute, and I want to listen to your experience in terms of your title, your roles, and the companies, because we already know, but for the audience. But I have this dilemma of is sales, I mean, the bar is so low right now that everyone can learn things in order to be good. But at some point, it's so hard to be a good seller right now. So, what is the the final answer here? It's harder than ever to be a good seller, or it's easier than ever to become a good seller. Do you get my point? Yeah. What do you think, guys, about this? I think from my perspective, it's it's more difficult to be a good seller because there are so many. Convince me, please. Yeah. So I think there are so many wannabe sellers out there. Okay, the wannabe You know, wannabe sellers which record themselves on YouTube and uh, you know, yeah, pitching themselves, uh like recording themselves doing articles into this podcast, by the way. Exactly. You guys doing that, exactly, exactly. We are those wannabes. Exactly. We were already and we wanna be YouTubers right now. I don't know. Maybe maybe just a little bit more. A little bit more uh professional setup. But no, but that's a that's a really big question that that I wouldn't say keeps me up at night because I'm lying. But it's like as a as a coach, as a coach, trainer, consultant right now, when I jump into helping companies to train their sales teams to perform better, this is what I'm seeing is AI making 80% of their sales teams lazier than ever. Yeah. So that's why they have performance going down. And on the other side, you have a five, 10% of people using AI to become the smartest people ever and performing like crazy. So that's why I have this question like, hey, why don't you what are the the traits, the personality traits, the the mindset that you have to go through or have or develop in order to say, I will use these tools in my advantage? Well, how do you see this evolving and happening? Yeah, I even in your role, sorry. Yeah, no, I've actually been thinking about this a lot recently, especially since I transitioned into a team lead role for a company I currently work for, which is uh multiplier. Okay. Um and this is something I've been thinking a lot because obviously, you know, once you start coaching people, you start noticing different things because you see things from the other side now, right? Um, and you can also learn a lot from different styles, which perhaps before you weren't so much exposed to, right? Yeah. Because you weren't listening to many uh other people's calls. Because you know, just your style. That's your style, yeah. We're a bit of psychopaths sometimes and selfish. Yeah, exactly. So it's that's the benefit, right? I think for me, the thing is it's I agree with you on the fact that it's never been easier to get into sales, right? But the here's the challenge. The challenge is up until now there were so many repetitive tasks that we were doing almost on like automation mode. And you could even go like link this to like our sales processes. And I'm not saying deviate from the sales processes. Yeah, yeah. I'm saying it can sound very robotic sometimes. Yeah. But now the opportunity is because you can now automate some of those things, you can now actually start becoming a 10x version of yourself. Can you give us examples of those processes, those tasks, and what are the new skills that we have to develop as sellers in order to not get replaced by those automations? Yeah. So if you think about like, you know, updating your uh CRMs, right? Favorite topic in sales for sales managers, obviously, not for individual contributors. Exactly. Um, you know, how long did it used to take for each of us and our teams and everyone to update the CRM? Right? Now we have tools in place where No taker. Yeah, it takes the note taker, it transcribes the call, it picks up what it needs to pick up, and then it even scores the call. Yeah. That's that boom, done, right? Yeah. The question for me is now, okay, so what do you do now that you don't have to do that? Exactly. Do you actually spend enough time reflecting on how you showed up to the call? Yeah. You know, uh analyzing uh behaviors, working on your craft. I don't see that happening in the in the human being uh uh seller, like actionable. And you know why? I had a perfect example uh last week. I got a I had a call. It's about you, it's about me. Okay, go ahead. I got a call. Uh sorry, Andy, yeah, but I I I think it's a good one. Uh so go ahead. It uh I got a call was recorded. I got scored a 3.8 out of 10. Okay, so a good call. No, a really bad one. A good call. So then I was I'm usually a two. That's right. And I was like, how is that possible? You know, and then the the AI said I jumped too early in the demo, I didn't dig deeper, uh dig uh deep enough into the questions. I was like, man, this was not it. I didn't do even a demo. The AI didn't get it right, right? And then I was like talking to my manager, I said, Hey, I'm not happy with that. And then she said, Yeah, don't worry, we are still training the AI to figure it out. You know, the thing is, I think a lot of salespeople, when they see these rankings, they get also kind of demotivated, right? Okay, and we are, I think with AI, of course, as well, maybe we get overloaded with information which we then wouldn't need to analyze by ourselves. I don't know how you guys see that, but yeah. Uh and the all yours. No stage is yours. Sorry, I'm jumping in because I you've just like triggered something in my mind, you know. It's it I think it ties back to what we were saying about the processes, yeah. So say for example, in your organization, you've defined that this is the flow of a deal, right? Shouldn't call one, this is what happens. We go through discovery, we present these three or four slides, right? Now, what if uh you know, due to X reasons, you've defined that okay, we should be presenting these three slides every single time, right? But you actually spot that it isn't really relevant to the conversation you're having. I can see why some people may be more junior reps, right? Uh they might feel like, okay, um am I losing the mark here? Am I not doing what I should was supposed to be doing? But maybe you actually move the needle or you you you focus uh time on asking the right questions. Yeah. That happens a lot. I mean, again, that that makes me think, but I want to ask you the questions and not reflect here. I mean I think that this is a great topic, that it's okay, how can we, as sellers and everyone that is listening that are willing either to break into tech sales or they are starting the career or they are moving throughout that ladder that we were talking about? What are the questions that I always hear from people that I'm training is Alan, what do I need to know in order to become a top seller? What are the skills? What are the what is the mindset? What are the personality traits? What are the the frameworks that I have to use? Those are the questions that I always get. So do you have any answers for any of this? Now that you're training your team, do you want to say something? Yeah. But but just to conclude, now that now that we are talking about, hey, now that I jump the other from the other side of the desk, now that I'm training teams and that I'm helping, and I know that there are some different ways and styles of sales, and that's okay. How can we make sure that we have a parameter or a common denominator that will make us succeed? Please. Yeah. I think when we had I beer, you know, we had a uh similar top uh the discussion about exactly this topic. And you told me about this story of this guy who was like I don't know what kind of job he had in the organization, but then he got moved in a in a role and he was the best performer. Maybe you could explain that point because it was I was like, wow, and this is exactly what I see on a daily base, right? Um and yeah, I think exactly the qu the question at some point. Yeah, yeah. I think for me it's starts with a very uh maybe philosophical pill. So don't don't put your don't put your uh uh bullshit detectors uh up right uh give bear with me too we we won't interrupt you I promise so I was actually reflecting on this um recently and there's this thing about when you when you think about what what does it mean to exist or to live bear with me guys I I can see where you're going just okay Aristotle so to live right to exist sorry means that you demand things right so you you know you wake up you need food you go to the toilet you do your stuff but you're demanding things okay right to live means you now need to give things you're living you need to interact you need to incorporate you need to trade you need to you know support people you need to help each other okay I reckon this is like the type of advice I would have loved or a discussion I would have loved to have in the initial days because for me that was a breaking point it was like okay how can you actually shift from that mindset where you're like taking things from someone to I'm actually looking to cooperate with you on XYZ like you know this conversation. We're exchanging value here. You know it's not like I'm telling you my story or I'm trying to take something from you or you're wasting my time or trying to take my time or my attention that genuine interaction of whatever it is. And then this happens nowadays or how do you teach your team or help your team to go from a demanding perspective to a helping giving perspective? Yeah. So I think it's like it starts with that right but it's important that it doesn't lead to a position where you're like like we don't work for free guys right you don't you don't need to become a people policer let's do it. Yeah exactly or or to or or to let's say serve in a in a very perverse way all the way to an extreme where you do yourself and your organization a disservice right so it's like it's always finding a balance between those two things. Okay. So how do we do it specifically? Okay go ahead specifically to me it's like and this is a conversation we keep having with the team is like if during the call one right you're not able to second to set uh next step then you don't have an opportunity agree. If you are saying that it means that at some point the teams right now and sellers have this I wouldn't call it like a misunderstanding but we are um super and overoptimistic at some point. Like everything 100% everything that happens hey we're going to close it I put it as an opportunity they told me that they love it. Yeah they are going on holidays but no worries next week I will follow up and nothing happens right so when you're telling me this and the I understand or what I'm listening is what I'm hearing is my team or sellers not only your team but sellers in general we used to go over the line and just because we had a conversation and the client said or the potential client the prospect said hey this is amazing let me send me an email and I will check it out internally we used to put that as an opportunity and then our pipeline it's a chaos or a disaster or nothing that we can believe on. So that's the thing like you already set the standard how do you make sure that they go so that we need a next step in those calls like what are the things that you help them or train them or coach them on? Well it's it like it's it starts with the why, right? So it's like okay if we need to walk out every single conversation with either next step or a decision that there there isn't a fit which is also fine right exactly maybe it's a no and it's okay. It's it's the quickest no ever. Great stop. Exactly let's move on right exactly because you know we're not gonna be able to serve every single company every single person out there and that's fine. Perfect man highlight that please because everyone thinks that if they say no just try to change their their mind if it's a no because there is a real reason why it's not a fit it's just not a fit. Don't try to convince them if if it's a no because you're gonna you're gonna waste a lot of time on on those prospects and effort an effort where you where there's no real opportunity right even if they buy they will turn easily exactly and then you will have your boss Andy saying hey I told you that yeah exactly exactly and there we get to another topic I think which is quite interesting in sales it's like if you fail fail fast right yeah I think we all agree um we worked on a list on uh we we got from uh from our marketing team or from our manager and we said like hey get the best out of it right and you try to work on this list getting some leads but you realize the list is shit okay so uh so it's it's if if so if you realize those kind of things I think it's important really to fail fast or to do something change the the the direction where you go what do you guys think about that like um yeah I think for me it like it ties back to what we're saying like um give give give the prospect you know a genuine chance to leave the table. Yeah so giving an opt-out or a way out is the best way you're lowering the friction I like this but because this wait let me reframe this yeah this is a strategy this is skills this is pure golden nuggets for sellers out there it's not just like hey you should be doing this it's hey guys if you do this you will have a potential outcome or a desired desired outcome that is lower the friction make them feel that they are in a safe place to talk to you and that's exactly what you're doing when you are giving an opt-out an example from my side and I want to hear your your idea is whenever we are jumping into a call if it is a negotiation call at the end of the funnel or in the big uh uh after you have a discovery call, it's like hey guys maybe maybe we have nothing to do here and there's nothing that I can do on my side that will help what you are trying to do. And that's okay but we will discover that by the end of the conversation. And if that's the case, no hard feelings we shake hands and we move along yeah if that's the case just by saying that you're lowering all that friction and tension within the conversation so I would like to understand how you usually do it or how do you uh like navigate these conversations as well. Yeah and look I think here's the thing um it's gonna happen anyway. Exactly and either say it or not even if you say it or not it's gonna happen anyway or what's even worse it sometimes happens without you like knowing or being involved which I also think like as an individual contributor is the worst thing possible right because if we're spending like an hour together right and then we go off and I have the expectation that we're gonna meet again and then you don't and I don't know so how do you waste the time do you think that I I agree and do you do you think that sellers are afraid of asking or saying these things 100% like they are afraid of getting the no yeah and that's why like I mean we are afraid of getting the rejection that's why yeah that's why we're not asking but then later on that's even worse as you're saying yeah I think it's a psychological psychological effect there because we don't like to hear a no. No exactly yeah if you go on a date and the woman says no it's it's it's not nice. Even if you don't go on a date then ask for how many times happen Kevin million times but it's okay it's part of life it's a statistics it's a confession I don't want to make okay no but we are I mean I I guess that we are aligned here that it's how we shift that seller's idea of guys you need to make sure that you have all the controllables controlled. Yeah right and in order to do so you need to ask uncomfortable questions and make sure that at some point you will have uncomfortable answers. Yeah. Right? The thing is that a leader as a manager can break or make your sales career because there are some managers out there and I want to ask your your opinion on manage management leadership and and all this stuff that it's guys you do more you call more you you straightforward you have to close it whatever at whatever it takes even if you have to lie and I don't agree with this methodology but it but it's out there. So how do you see sales in 2018 2022 we were talking or COVID after COVID and right now do you see that there is a more trend going into this helping is the new selling in the tech space at least or how do you do it? I think so because like you even you start analyzing some of the lead sources right nowadays you see a lot coming from these LLMS models right yeah so to me what that tells you is hey whether you like it or not uh the person's already partly decided. Yeah right so we're already here right if if in 2017 we're we're like hey I don't even know who you guys are exactly right let's just like yeah tell me now we're like I actually know who you guys are I've gone into G2 I've gone into trust pilot yeah I know what I want right and this is why I'm here yeah I just want to have the confirmation that it's right what I know. Exactly and in fact we we talk about this in in other episodes that is in 2025 2026 70 plus percent I I don't remember exactly the right number but plus 70% of the prospects already did the research about who you are what you sell how you can be a fit or not how you can be useful for them or not and most of them they don't want to talk to a sales guy unless there is a potential fit out there. And that's a game changer on how we develop skills. Yeah. Right? So I think I think definitely and this this is gonna increase even further I think with the new generations you know the new generation prefer to speak less to other people and I think even less to other salespeople right so they want to make the decision by themselves. So it's really important that we you know um make them feel comfortable when we speak to them instead of you know just like getting in pitch mode and uh trying to convince them right it's I think it's definitely uh uh an interest interesting topic here that comes down to when you're saying we don't want to talk to people to call calling for example right I want to hear your thoughts about multi-channel strategies uh or strategies to prospect people and and let's jump down let's get down into more actionable tips for for the audience I read 100 times on LinkedIn in different places like hey everyone is automating emails everyone is sending more emails and and more DMs but no one is picking up the phone unless the company's like making mandatory for us for an SDR or a BDR to do it um but still set uh CEOs or founders are complaining like hey I'm going away on holidays when I go back and I read this a couple of days ago I got plus 900 emails on my inbox not one missed call yeah so how do you see this shifting do you make cold calls how do you usually uh combine the multi multi-channel strategy what what do you see is the best way to approach this I think we're in the era of uh the 10x human being so what I mean by that is like if we go back to 2017 now again right for you know fast fast forward to uh to to to where we are today back then is like you know you would you would receive some sort of some sort of list right you were lucky if you had a good marketing team that was uh you know that was just the the case if not then guess what you're screwed you still need to do the calls anyway right so exactly you better do good you better be good at it right but now it's like you can actually measure if the person you're speaking to has opened the email or not right you can you can you have these so many different uh channels you can impact them on so to me and this is a conversation we have like with the team that call is your a bit your opportunity as a human being to be you know Andy Kevin whoever it is that's actually calling you you know I'm I'm blocking off my time if you want to put it in those terms you know to speak to you because I have a message for you. Yeah I'm not calling you out of the blue because if I'm doing that now I'm not doing the right thing or I don't have the right tools. Yeah. But if if I've actually done the work right and I know I have a reason to call you why should I be afraid like I know I know we all are right we all are the one that is telling you that I love the making call calls they they are lying. Yeah we don't like it because it's challenging yeah but it's a good way it still works. Yeah it is the fastest way to book meetings and to close deals still the number one you know channel channel for conversion and I think the reason for that is because people actually appreciate that you're doing a a service. Yeah. Some people don't and that's why that's when when you feel you don't want to do it right because that 10% is like they they really you know they get on your nerves kind of thing. But you know that 5% that do convert or that 3% yeah they do it because they genuinely you know value what you're doing. It's like hey you know this guy actually picked up the phone he gave me a valid reason for speaking today and guess what? They're helping yeah exactly I want to see what they have exactly and I I uh got this feeling a couple of months ago because I'm selling a house and I I get uh 10 calls from agencies who want to sell my house and I get one pretty good cold call and we're like man of course If it's relevant and it's good for you gets why not three points all of the points were relevant and straight to the point and I said okay let's have a meeting and now he's selling my house you know but actually I wanted to sell up my house by myself but now he's selling it for me right so it's I think like you said it's really important that you know valuable information do your research before you pick up the phone right if you just pick up the phone and try to be lucky uh would you be interested in my solution? No no you have to bring like valuable points and as well like I love to bring humor inside right because if you uh that's what moves the needle it's another human on the other side you are calling right and that's that's uh many salespeople um don't get it yeah we I think we we kind of touched on this on the other day with with the beers um we had a really we're having water today we have really deep we had really deep conversations I know and and he is disappointed but because we put water here if you want to be here but for the next time I'm pretty sure he promised a beer but I could be could be could be no but tell me yeah you were saying we we were just talking about like uh we work from home right yeah and it's so good right because you know you get out of bed sometimes you some people work on their pajamas I I've never worked on my pajamas and it's so comfortable right you get your your hock uh chocolate or coffee you sit down you're in your comfort zone it's great yeah but guess what that's not where the magic happens right no and and this is the dilemma like for us I think as human beings and in sales is like hey you've got to go out there and do stuff yeah yeah yeah it could be virtually virtually or it could be physically you know grabbing your stuff and going out there but you know you and I were discussing about this like the importance of just understanding that as a mindset like hey my job is actually to with to go out there and interact with people and get to that point right hey maybe we're not gonna get anywhere in the conversation fine you know good to meet you you never know you're planting a seed and you never know. You never know. Yeah um or guess what there might be a prospect of an opportunity. Absolutely good stuff. Yeah I have one point and one question that I would like to ask maybe I put you against the wall here uh but what we notice that people that is watching us loved is war stores stories about sales like um failures or complicated deals that you unlock with some specific strategy or ways of talking and involving different people in a in into a multi-stakeholder deal. So with that intro and giving you the time to think in the meantime, what are the what are those stories that you would say you know what three years ago I had this prospect that this happened and this is what we did and we unlock it or I this failure that changed the way I think about this specific prospecting strategy or methodology. Is there any story that you would like to share with us? Yeah I I I can think of a couple uh but I think they're actually quite quite similar. I'm not I'm not sure if it classifies for what you would call like a war story but you you'll be sales is always a war story so yeah on a battlefield so be our guest yeah exactly so uh I had I had this um was speaking to this this prospect that was working with one of our competitors right and they were basically their biggest challenge pain points was all around the level of service right level of service yeah level of service per per service you know uh I'm never able to speak to a CSIM um every time I send an email I get an automated email saying hey thank you for sending us an email we'll get back to you whenever it's possible okay so that kind of stuff that that kind of thing right and it got to a stage in the conversation where I think sometimes it's it's it's just important to understand like okay where can you actually go the extra mile for some of these people and you've got to be conscious with that because sometimes you can easily over overpromise you don't want to do that. Especially if they be burnt with somebody else right but basically the the the the the the story is um it was really as simple as being like okay so you've had these you know XYZ situations with this competitor you're speaking to these other three guys right how many of them has have actually told you that if you have a problem you can pick up the phone and speak to them right now. And and it was like crickets no one you know like yeah they all okay so they've all told you hey this is our SLA this is our channels you know uh oh you know Zen desk is great for tickets you know this is how good we are yeah this is everything that we can do um but no one has actually genuinely told you hey you need something call me call me yeah so basically you think that that question that question is you felt it at that moment that that was the haha moment or the whoa moment where you say I unlock it this is mine. Yeah that that was that was really it so it wasn't so body language on the other side of the screen like I'm yours like back to the basics right yeah it was just that silent moment where you felt like okay this this is it yeah all they need is that level of care and and and love you know sounds like a relationship sounds sounds easy but at some point let me connect the dots here I love the story Andy so basically first of all why were you prospecting these people or you you didn't know at that time that they were they were using a competitor. I uh we identified through the SDR that they were using a competitor. Okay. But we just hadn't been able to identify point uh pain point during the first call. Okay so basically you you follow up and then when you had that conversation say hey first I need to understand from your point of view as a seller what's happening because if they have a uh another provider and they are jumping into this call something is happening right the thing is that as a seller most most time most of the time we are not asking the right question they are like hey there might be a reason here of why you are jumping into this call in order to talk to me if you already have this solution in place that is exactly similar to mine at some point. You uncover that and from there you ask the magical question. What if if this is the case and I'm telling you you can call me 247 even though you know that they won't call you 247 this won't happen. It's just about giving that trust you know and and what sorry what happened ultimately did they close with you or yeah they did they did. So they they onboarded you know 15 days after that and it was a pretty smooth process. But the thing is it's a bit of a double edged sword right because when you go into that you know you better show up then. Exactly if something goes wrong because you gotta be there right you now you've made the commitment. That's what they say like always always underpromise and over deliver. Yeah the thing is that underpromising and over delivering it's keeping you way far away from selling a lot of times and that's why sellers tend to overpromise and underdeliver later on and that's uh that's what you were saying right the problem is as well like of course you can underpromise and then you give it out of your hand and then you're the operational the team yeah under delivery yeah at some point there's a mix of how you work with the with the other areas. Like you said you have to then really you know get and give for example if you are a sales guy who always overpromise and then the you close the deal and then the CRM uh the see already oh my god this guy Kevin he closed another git deal I know exactly what kind of client is the customer success people will hate you because they know what kind of clients you bring in and you told them the best thing about the world but it's not what they actually how do you how do you manage a uh a guy like this so let me put a scenario I I like this this topic because I feel related to it with uh with an ex, a former uh part well a former BDR AE full state cycle that they had in one of the teams that I manage that it's you know that this guy is killing it. Yeah everything that he touches it's going to be a close one. You know I you don't know how. But then the re then we always had a problem at some point with those accounts no matter if they are staying or turning and then it's always causing some troubles and challenges within Other areas and departments. So ultimately, my decision was you are a rotten apple, you need to go away. Or change or go away. Ultimately, you are going moving away. It was a really hard decision because when we are only analyzing revenue numbers, the numbers are there. So no one is going to come down to me and say, hey, you need to push him away. Because everything was amazing from a numbers perspective. But from a working perspective, it was a disaster. So what what do you think about this? And how would you manage these type of situations? Well, first and foremost, I'm glad you had the alignment to be able to do that, right? Yeah. Because sometimes you just don't. They don't allow you, and that's it. No, because you know this guy is killing it. It's your problem. Deal with it. Yeah. So I think, you know, it's it's it's it's definitely a challenging one, right? You you gotta be cautious with like how much level of coaching you put into it, really trying to steer those behaviors, right? Until you get to a point where it's like, nah, you know, it's it's not it's ultimately not benefiting the organization, really. Yeah. Um, even though it seems as if it is, because initially it is. Numbers, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's crazy. It's crazy. I mean, I don't know what you have to say with it, or or if anything. No, I agree with both of you. I agree with both of you. I just another uh topic came in in my mind because you know it's uh there are a lot of talents out there, right? Um where you see people they're like good talker, smart talker, right? And then they are they're hungry people, yeah, right? If you both would need to hire someone who's smart or someone who's hungry, with what kind of person like style would you would you go? Andy, all yours. I have my my decision. I I I think it would be politically correct for me to say I have my doubts, yeah, but I don't I don't really have my doubts, you know. I'm a big fan of like the underdogs. Yeah, you know, same here. Hungry people, right? Yeah, hungry people, those people that genuinely here. You you are as well. Yeah, absolutely, 100%. I mean, then for sure if you're a hungry guy and you're uh an asshole and a stupid guy, for sure that won't work, no matter if you're hungry or not. Yeah, but if you're average, I'm not asking for the best, best of the best, but you're hungry, that will beat every potential talent. That it's being hungry, being uh willing to uh evolve and develop new skills, and being able or willing to say, hey, you give me feedback, you give me training, you give me coaching, you give me the hard things uh about the hard things, and I will learn and I will be the best. That's what I want. That that kind of people is what I want in my team. Or when we train other teams, yeah, you can notice who is the one that will perform and over-deliver because they are there. Yeah, you know, like uh repetition beats talent every single time. As Argentinian, I would say like it's like the Messi Ronaldo story, right? Messi, talented, Ronaldo hard worker, you know, but I know from which side you are. The thing is that I don't want to get into that point because again, everyone will lose against Messi. Yeah. But Messi, they think that Messi is just talent, and no one understands the life that has behind it in order to get into that point. But again, that's another topic. But I agree with you. It's are you more on the talent side? And we're talking about two goats here. Yeah. But we all agree into the sense of if you want to become a great seller in 2026 with all these AI FOMO, crazy quotas going up, uh performance going down, customer acquisition costs going up, uh, tools everywhere, an overwhelm of information, you need to make sure that you are there, kicking the kicking the door every single day. Yeah. I actually have a story for this one. Um go ahead. I think I told you this as well, maybe on year number two the other day. Yeah, number 20. See. Um when when when this was back in the days in the Dublin days, right? One one day we had this guy turn up in the you know in the floor, and you you saw that he wasn't what you would refer to as like a cultural fit in like HR terms, right? Like the guy was slightly, let's say, um, let's say uh uneducated or not necessarily the fit for like what the type of previous hires would have been. And I'm not gonna disclose his name, but uh I'm sure he'll hopefully enjoy me uh telling his story. And then we're like, okay, uh, you know, what what what is it that you you did prior to to this A job, right? Not that we sell rockets or build rockets or you know, vaccine against cancer or anything like that, but it was like I was genuinely interested. And he was like, I used to wash dishes at Google. Okay, like three years ago, or four or five? No, like literally last week. Ah, okay. So this guy, fast forward, right, top performer of the team of the entire region, killing it, killing it. Why? Because he showed up to the office one hour before everyone he made the highest number of calls, right? Hardworking, yeah, yeah, and willing to do the things that no one is willing to do. He just showed up, you know, and stepped up to the challenge. And then three years later, the the the hiring manager that hired him. I start like, I couldn't stop thinking about this story, right? And and eventually I I turn around to him, who's now a friend of mine. I'm like, why did you hire this guy? Like, genuinely, what's happened? Yeah, why did you hire this guy? And he's like, he showed up to the interview and said, I'm washing dishes at Google. You know, if you give me this job, I'm gonna be on it like a dog with a bone. Man, that moves that moves emotionally to to to the point that you would say, Hey, I need these people in my team. That's crazy. Then for sure, you need to learn a lot of things uh around what you sell, how you sell it, who you sell it to, and technicalities. But those kind of personality traits, you don't get it in everyone, in every single seller. I had the same same person, um, STR of the story. He came to the interview. Yeah, we asked him, Why you why do you want that job? And he said, like, look, my mother's sick. Um, I have a younger brother, I need to bring money home. That's the reason. You know, I can tell you all the stories about why tech sales is so beautiful, everything. I need to take care of my family. And he was uh 19 years old. You know, I was like, okay. This guy is going to crash it. He's gonna crash it, you know. Like, and uh and he did. He was STR of the year, he booked all the meetings. That's crazy. And um he's really hungry and he's a successful salesperson now, right? You sometimes you just need to give those people, like I said, like you said, we don't need we are not building rockets. We don't uh rockets, we don't rocket science at some point, but we do. We have not our we're selling. If we miss quota, we miss quota. If we miss twice quota, we get fired. Okay, we find a new job, right? Exactly. So, but it's still like uh I think it's it's it's something you all sales managers are out there, they need to give those people a chance. Yeah. Yeah. Do you have a specific way of training your team? How do you usually or normally do that? Do you pick a topic? Do you go through the the lows and highs on their side? How do you go through that? I know what I'm going to help you with and how I'm going to help you with. Yeah, I would say my my journey into leading teams is is recent, right? But I I have the luxury of like having the ability to coach them. Um, I would say by by example, meaning because I I carry a quota as well, right? Okay. Um, it's a bit of a like a hybrid uh role, right? So you could say it's the best or or the the the worst of both worlds. Okay. Some would argue. Yeah. But um, but yeah, that's that's the way that's the way I do it. So to me it's it's it's an advantage because it means I can speak from the trenches. Exactly. Yeah, like they see you like a like a reference as well. And some it's it's not like you're coming from another place. It's like now you have to do it in this way. Yeah. Like you are a guy that they can trust. Yeah, like because you're doing that as well. Exactly. And I think I think perhaps you can relate to this, right? We've we've all had that director that may be great at people management, right? Not not discrediting them in any way or form, but they don't know anything about the business. Yeah, correct. Yeah, right. And you show up to the one-to-one, and then they tell you a whole bunch of things, but the reality is they don't understand how things work. Yeah, right. That's the type of guy like uh I'm just reluctant. I I'm not I'm a fan of spinning the game. Exactly. Yeah, so no, I just want to ask, don't forget the question. Yeah, I just want to ask, following up to that question. So putting it to another way, like how you are a career, uh quote, a career, sorry, but in your days as an individual contributor and 100% as an IC, what was your process, if you have any, where you say, hey, you know what, one hour a week, three hours a week, or twice a week, I will make sure that I'm evolving or developing new skills, either with your manager or yourself. How did you go through that path in order to tell the people, like, hey, if you want to become better, do this, or at least it worked for me? Yeah, I would say it's really as simple as joining other people's calls regularly. Like just make a habit of that, build that muscle. It's very easy to think, oh, I don't really need to join this guy's calls because I've seen 20 calls. And then that's where you you start getting into the hang of like uh you become closed in your own mindset, right? Yeah, uh, and and start rejecting ideas. Yeah, you get biased. So I would say that's number one for me. And now, you know, with like the likes of tools like you know, gong, stuff like that, you could just watch the recordings, but it's never enough. Like I say this and I don't watch them enough. I should be watching them more for sure. So basically, you think that it's a game changer or will move the needle, watching the record or checking the recordings, jumping and shadowing some others, uh, going to the top performance and say, hey, what are your top three, whatever the strategies that you're applying that that helps you move the deal forward, and then putting into practice, measuring them? It it sounds super easy. I don't know what as sellers we are not doing that most of the time. Ego. You say it's ego, it's it's the crazy operational day to day that we don't have time. Like, who I mean, even when I say send a proposal on my site as a consultant, in every proposal I include a video walking through that proposal, and on top of that, we will jump into a call for the proposal. But I send that like two hours before, just in case. Yeah. And I can see even before, during, of after, not even the one that is willing to buy my services that came inbound because they want to hire me to train their team. And the sales manager is not even checking the three-minute video that I recorded for them. So then on the other side, you say, hey, man, you are asking something to your team that you're not even doing when you're hiring someone to do exactly that for your team. So it's crazy and it put me to the nerves. You can feel it. Uh, but it's easy. That's why we were saying it's easier than ever to become better if you want. You just listen to what works, put it into practice, put it in your own approach because you might have a shark approach or a friendly approach or whatever the approach that you have, and then test and iterate from there. Yeah. No, I think it definitely uh it's but like you said, uh, ego is is it plays a big game. So BS, Sanders ego, man. Yeah. Why do we have that? And you know, we need it at some point in order to sell. Yeah. It's also hard to be criticized, you know, like for example, like um in a positive way, right? You can be criticized in and uh the feed famous feedback. Um famous feedback. Yeah, like a like a sandwich, you know. But exactly. You're you're be you're amazing, but uh so but I think it's it's uh of course, like having the team motivate be motivated. When I had like a team of uh between eight and ten STRs, was hard really to coach all of them at the same time. So I I let the I let the the good performers just run, the mid performers I gave them some dips and tricks, and the bad performer I was trying to train to get them to a mid mid-performer, good performer. But um I think some of them, if I gave them feedback, they didn't take it good, right? Um, because I'm also quite a direct person, I I have to say. But um, yeah, I think ego is is is is is it's a BS. Yeah, it's a BS. Plays a hard hard game here. You know how it works when you jump into a conversation with your manager and it's like, hey, okay, so pipeline analysis, whatever, how you structure it, and then say, okay, these two deals, you did great. But can I give you some feedback? And you know that one minute later you will be roasted. Yeah, and you will be like, you did great, but you suck here, you suck there, this is horrible, you have to change this, and that five minutes later, and this is something that you mentioned that it's I'm really direct. And depending on who you're talking to and their seniority level and the type of seller that they are, I remember when I was at um previous companies, the same feedback, two different sellers. Some of them I have to treat them like, hey, this is something, don't take it personally. Yeah, we're going to get better, we are doing it together, and you need to be like if it is a cotton area, so super soft. And some others were telling me, you roast me. I need that because I will fire me up and I will prove you wrong, right? But and I like, well, it it it's it's really crazy how we need to deal with people. But coming back to your point is the person from who you get the feedback, right? If there's a director or a uh a VP or whatever who you know he has no clue and you get a feedback from them, it's like it's useless. Yeah, no, why you have no clue how to to sell. Maybe you didn't sell the last 10 years, and now you're giving me feedback. I don't know. I like that we are roasting BPs and directors here, like if they have no idea whatsoever. No, no, no, there are many good out there, you know, but there are also many smart ass talk out there. Absolutely, absolutely. That's what that's why we sellers are yeah, a big deal. This is this is why um we we sometimes talk about like the topic of like, you know, uh some organizations they only have these two pathways, right? It's like you're either an individual contributor or you're a people manager, right? But like going back to the football analogy, it's like what about the captain role? Yeah. You know, why why don't more organizations maybe have a captain, which is like this guy might not be the best, you know, he's not the Alex Ferguson of the world for sure. Yeah, right? But maybe he can be the you know the John Terry of the world, whatever you want to call it, right? Yeah, right? Yeah, yeah. I mean, uh now leads me to a question before jumping into uh something that is really fun that is the cards. But do you think that top performers and always top performers and just top performers should be the ones promoted to managers or team leads? No, I don't think so. Do you think that this is what happens most more often than not than not? So can you elaborate why do you you think that should be in another way and why this happens a lot? Yeah. I think there's multiple reasons as to why like my answer would be no. Okay. I think primarily, and this is something I I have faced like transitioning into like a people management role, is like some top performers are actually not that aware of some of the things that they're they're doing really well, right? Because they're just like wired in a specific way. It might be like, you know, I mean they're top performers, right? But that doesn't mean that they're good at like getting people to like yeah, to you know, move the needle into what what gets people reading the people or reading people, yeah. Or training or or or helping. So basically, I think that this is the easiest path for companies that is like, hey, if you're killing it over the last one year, you will be the sales manager. Yeah, and then that has nothing to do with, I mean, the skills that you have for a sales top performer has nothing to do with the sales skills that you need to have for a top sales manager. Nothing to do. Most of the time, you're not even actively selling yourself, but helping others sell. And that means you become a psychologist or a therapist on how you train, how you coach, how you listen, how you develop new skills, how you get their hand and and walk them through the puzzle success at some point, right? Yeah, yeah. So so yeah. I think now's the time. Um, Andy, we we we we didn't tell you. Um but we have a surprise. We have a game. So the beer? No, no, no. Beer pong. We have to just to re-re reorganize the studio a little bit. But we have a game, it's called like the confession of the seller game. So we have here cards in the middle, um, where we have um questions on the cards, which different categories. Uh so it's uh one question we ask you, and you give us a yes or no answer, and um why? Okay. So try to be as exactly. You have 60 seconds, we will ask the question, yes or no, and why you think so. Okay. So uh category outcome. Um we had this topic kind of called calling still works. Yes. Why it's uh it's the best way to leverage your human skills in uh in today's world. Okay, yeah. Yeah, we agree. I mean nothing else to be honest. So the next one is AI in sales. Um is AI well AI will replace SDRs, yes or no, and why? I would say no because of the first answer I gave as well, right? So it will replace many of the tasks that SDRs currently do, but it will give them the ability to be to be the best people at connecting with other people, which is how decisions are made. So let me follow up. It shouldn't be that way, but let me follow up on that question because on that topic was I think it's it's interesting. So when you're saying it won't replace them, but it will replace a lot of the tasks that they are doing, that means that the SDR's uh skills need to shift. Because if not, most some FDRs will be replaced if they just do repetitive things. Am I right? Yeah, I think that's accurate. Okay. Uh I think that will give it will give them the ability to be much more self-aware of what is it that they're saying on a call, how are they behaving, and how do they interpret other humans' uh responses and behavior rather than spending so much time doing lead enrichment, you know, um non-revenue activities and things like that. Okay, makes sense. Yeah, go ahead. Next one pipeline. More meetings um is like more revenue, yes or no? Is my team watching this? Maybe. No. Uh I I I don't think there's a direct correlation between those two. Yeah. Uh simply because you could have very unproductive meetings. I I would I would say there's something missing there, right? So is it like a confirmed meeting or just about something booked in the calendar? Yeah. Just more pipe, more meetings, like an SDR booking more meetings. Yeah. Imagining that you have them. Oh, so you mean as in an SDR books if an SDR books more meetings, does it does it does it have a correlation into more revenue? Yeah. Potentially. Okay, then I'll change my answer. Yes. Okay. Okay. Why? Funnel, right? Okay. So if you have meetings and it means you've been relevant if they've been confirmed. If you've been relevant, it means having more conversations, relevant conversations. So they follow your criteria, your ICP, whatever. Yeah, exactly. So that should mean it translates into the funnel. Okay. Great. That's one. Skills. Discovery is more important than a demo. Absolutely. Why? You can't do a demo. You shouldn't be demoing anything until you've uh done a thorough discovery. Or another way of putting it is how do you know what to demo if you haven't done a discovery? Okay. And what do you think actually happens right now with with sellers? In the especially in the SMB world, yeah. It's so easy to bypass discovery because again, it it it's the discomfort zone. It's where you're asking the hard questions. Yeah. Where people can decide to leave openly, right? Where people might not be comfortable following whatever process you're trying to take them through. But I think if you understand why you're doing it, you're listening with two years, right? Then that should ultimately result in a positive outcome during the demo. Um, so yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And and we usually fall in that trap in SMB, mid-market SMB, of the easiness of sharing my screen and showing how beautiful my product is, pitching a lot of features. Let me show you a quick presentation. Exactly. And then that quick presentation is 25 minutes of a monologue that no one scares. Yeah. Right. Um, that that's a topic. And the better the product, the the higher the risk. I I think because it's so easy to rely on it. Yeah. Like, oh, we're a product-led organization, then we're just gonna jump into demo. Correct. Yeah. Unless you're a top, like unless you're selling Salesforce or Amazon Web Services or any of these tools that it's like they request you to show something and sell it. But I agree with you. So let's let's make a recap of everything that we I mean, we cover, I don't, I cannot recall the the went from pipeline to coaching to strategies, AI and sales. I think that a key takeaway that I would say here that it's um you saw. My dilemma that is right now, I do believe that it's the easiest time in life or in earth for sellers or for people that is willing to uh like go through the sales career to jump into sales, but it's harder than ever because you need to make sure that you put what it takes in order to be that that persona that will be a lead, that will be a good one if you want to be that one. Uh that's what we preach here in the confessions of a seller. Um, so I think that still we will, at least I'm speaking by myself as a consultant. I still have uh some couple of years of job. Uh, and I will have a job of training sellers if they want to be uh good. Um that's my key takeaway. Yeah, I think for my side, one of the key takeaways is it's not the let's call the ladder or whatever. Like you should follow your your your gut feeling where you want to be in sales, right? Do that what you enjoy the most as well, right? Um, for example, now I'm in an enterprise, but I get the feeling maybe I will go back to mid-market or SMB because it's just the you know, the fast the quick the quick wins and the fast uh deals, you know, make make you uh make you feel happy as well. So um it's not like a straight journey. You can always go another way as well. Yeah, you feel you want to go in account management, being a sales engineer or sales ops, rev ops. Yeah, whatever, right? So it's not a straight line for the salespeople, it's really like uh having different options, right? And if you sorry, if you if you wanna say something to the audience out there, to sellers, new sellers, old sellers, that what you would what you would say, what would you say or that tip that you would give them? I would say, like to me, I genuinely believe it's there there's never been a best time to lean on your human skills. Like I genuinely believe that. If you know, if you try and be the best at being someone else, I don't think you're gonna do very well. Okay. If you try and uh take that, maybe step back slightly or reflect a little bit more, okay, what actually makes you unique, you know, as a as a human being, you know, is it is it your ability to open doors? Maybe we're gonna have you know 10 million quota SDRs, you know, uh as a result of this increasing productivity. And maybe you you won't want to move into an AE role as an SDR because maybe that's that's your skill, that's what you bring to the table. I don't know. That's a good way to see me, to be honest. I never thought it in that way. No, so that's a great tip. So thank you again. Thank you for joining us. Thank you for sharing your your experience, your expertise, your ideas, and your thoughts. Um, thank you. Yeah, thank you. Reply reply IO. Go ahead, please. Yeah, no, again, like thanks uh reply.io for of course making making this happen. Um uh yeah, our the all-in-one outreach solution with Jason AI, the AI SDR who not just books Ellen meetings during the time when we are here uh recording the podcast as well as myself. So it's it's uh yeah, it's our um we're happy to have the Robin from Batman, right? It's a regular exactly. And then it's this kind of case is called Jason. Um if you like the episode, um, of course, we would uh highly appreciate it if you can hit the subscribe button. If you have any questions, let us know. And as well, all the information about Jason AI you find in in the description here. So yeah. Awesome. Thank you very much, and see you in the next one.