The problem with honour culture

Honour is a good thing. But too much honour or overemphasis of honour in one area (such as leadership) in a culture can have unintended fruit in the long term. I believe much of how honour is taught in the modern church is very different from how it is described in the Bible (particularly the New Testament). Sadly this often results in the disempowering of the saints with the emergence of the clergy class.

In this episode we look through some of the scriptures on honour. I talk about how to steward power well as leaders, how challenge and criticism is necessary in a healthy culture and what honour should really look like.

If you're still reading, my name is Sats Solanki aka Digital Rabbi. I lead Reflect Church in London, UK. If you'd like to connect then head over to Insta @satsolanki or head to https://digitalrabbi.co. To find out more about Reflect Church head to https://reflect.church

Transcript

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Well, hello and welcome to the Leadership Hulter Culture Podcast. My name is Sansalanke, otherwise known as the Digital Rabbi, and we're here on episode three of the podcast, and we're talking about all things leadership, theology, culture, how to create healthy churches, healthy leaders, and just trying to talk about some of the things that maybe you know is not always popular or allowed to talk about. And really, this a lot of this stems from my my own journey. You know, for most of my adult life, I've been involved in church leadership in a particular type of church, let's say. Um the more Pentecostal, evangelical side of things, really with an emphasis, or I would say uh uh maybe an overemphasis on leadership and leaders in general. And um and so, you know, uh five or six years ago, the the church that we're a part of really just came to a close for a number of not great reasons. And uh out of the ashes of that experience, there was just like so many foundations, foundational beliefs and thoughts about how we do church that were really challenged for me and for my wife and for our whole team who are involved in that process. And so, as we planted out again into London where we where we lived, um, you know, five, six years ago, uh we've just been on this journey of trying to understand uh what went wrong and also you know, looking at things um from scratch, you know, like I feel like it was such a gift uh to be interrupted in that way because I think you know, like a fish in in the in water, right? Like you you don't know if you're in water, right? If you're a fish, that's kind of what culture is like, you know, we're we're all here breathing air, but until somebody figured out scientifically, oh, there's air, nobody really thought about it. It was just the way it was. Um, and so I think there's just um things uh and uh assumptions um that we have about how God works and how the church should be that often we've not really most of us have not really thought about these things. Most of us have been handed down a way of beliefs, traditions, systems, and I don't think there's anything wrong with that necessarily. I just think it's really interesting for me, as I've been reflecting. I know that I've been handed a rare gift of having to build some of those things from scratch. Um, you know, because I've had to go back to the scripture and go back to God and say, God, I don't understand why didn't this work? Why didn't this way of thinking, which I thought was producing something really good, um, clearly hasn't. Uh, what's with that? And to go back to the Bible really with a very open heart and say, God, help me understand. And this, you know, part of a part of what happens in that process when you've been kind of smashed by an experience is of course you react, you know, you go to the other side. I I think that's something that definitely happens um and something that I'm aware about um in my own journey. But I think um as you're exploring, and some people like to use the word deconstruction, I I don't know. I just feel like I'm going to God and I'm I've got questions and I'm trying to rebuild. And what I'm noticing is that as we're building out these principles in our own, you know, lived experience leading a church um that is working, and uh working in the sense of the fruit that is being created and the culture that is being created, I can genuinely say is very life-giving. So I want to talk to you today about um quite a big topic is the topic of honor, and uh particularly honor culture is a phrase that will sometimes get get be used um to talk about creating in a church. And a lot of churches are advocates for creating um a sort of church that really honors um leadership. And just to be clear, the Bible does talk about honoring leaders. I I'm not against honor, but what I would maybe posit um uh or maybe just question is um what maybe the question I'm asking is when does honor become unhealthy? Where does honor lead us to a place where um you know it kind of closes down conversation and closes down uh maybe some healthy things where it where does it cover in the wrong way and create an environment that can be quite um blind, um actually? And uh and so I want to talk about it and and I want to just address just something really important about honor culture. We we could call this the idea of over-honouring or hyper honor. Um, you you can kind of pick and choose, but but you know, when you say the word honor, it triggers lots of different thoughts and feelings in people, and I I've noticed that, um, you know, and I've been been very curious about that as I've been posting on Instagram about this idea. Um, it's just very fascinating to see uh the responses and what it reveals in how people think and what's in their heart are good and bad. And um I I think one of the really interesting things about honors and an honor culture is that in one sense it it it preserves itself, it protects itself. You know, so um, you know, if we believe that, you know, the the honor means we can't really question what a leader says. Um I don't think anyone believes that in the extreme, but sometimes that's how it works, right? Um so you know, well, this person is anointed by God, and God has placed them over my life, and therefore, you know, who am I to question? Like it just naturally goes there, right? So even if the latter conclusion is not preached, we sometimes just people end up in that latter conclusion because of the culture of honor. That the fruit of that culture is, you know, um submission and compliance. And again, submission is in the Bible, but it's not it's not the same as compliance, right? Like I always joke, you know, uh, you know, if your pastor wants you to rob a bank, you know, should you? Like, is it what are you supposed to do? And the obvious answer is, well, obviously not, because we understand that biblical submission is not just about yes, sir, no, sir. It's um it's about we all submit to one another and we all submit to God and we submit to our leaders and we submit to our parents, but it's like as we submit to God. So our submission um ties into and connects to the larger principle is that we're all following Jesus together, and this is really a New Testament shift from the old to the new, where we move from a bunch of people who are, you know, a small number of people in the Old Testament who are anointed by God and have a specific role and really act as God to people, you know, they're intermediaries, and uh that's that's the function of priests and you know, people like Moses and the prophets, etc. They're they're really intermediaries on on behalf of people. And yet when we come to the New Testament, that really changes. And so a phrase I've used a lot is Moses points towards Jesus, not towards your senior pastor. Why? Because I think with honor culture and hierarchy in general, which is a bit of a bigger topic, um, I think a lot of the time we are just going back to the Old Testament way and we've forgotten that the New Testament has changed the rules, it's changed fundamentally how things work. It doesn't mean that honor's bad, it doesn't mean that leadership is bad, like not at all. It's just that the the way we're thinking about it, it is radically different. Now we are all priests, and now, of course, Jesus is our high priest and he's died once and for all, and we don't need another high priest. And so the way that we relate to one another is now not from a place of hierarchy, now not from a place of this person is above me. It's actually from a place of equality where we all are following Jesus together, and then we recognize that within the body of Christ there are different functions and gifts. Um leadership gifts, for example, you know, we're talking about apostles or prophets or teachers, etc., and lots of other gifts. Um, that these are all about now function primarily, and the goal of these functions is of course to build up, you know, equip the saints and and so on for the work of ministry. So we kind of have this idea that actually all of the saints, all of the children of God, all of us who follow Jesus, are ministers, our priests, are royal, um, you know, we're we're kings um and queens, etc. And we're included in God's family. And so this is amazing. You guys know all of this, right? Because you're familiar with the gospel. But what this means is that our paradigm of how we see leadership also needs to shift to that perspective. And a lot of the time what we've done is we've gone back to the Old Testament and we've gone, yeah, this is how it worked in the Bible, the word of God, therefore, uh, you know, this is how it happens. And I want to just push back on that. And so the first thing to notice is that sometimes a system or a culture of a church is kind of like has no space for questioning that concept, right? And so you can't talk about this. You can't talk about how we may get things wrong in the way that we do things, because if you do that, you're not on board, you're not uh submitted, you're not planted, you're not on board with the vision, and now you're immediately divisive or you know, creating disunity or whatever it is. And it's like those things may or may not be true, right? Like some people are divisive, right? But also a lot of people just have questions. A lot of people are noticing, I don't think that feels right, the way we're doing that. I don't like the language of how we do that. And here's how, according to the scripture, this doesn't fit for me. Now that fits the New Testament model because we submit to one another and we submit to our leaders as we submit to God, right? And so, and as we submit to the scriptures. So any position in terms of authority as a leader only remains if we submit to the scriptures, right? The moment we move away from truth, like everybody can rebuke everybody. That's how it works, and we see this in the Bible, right? So, so Paul calls Peter out, right? Like Peter is, you know, uh Jewish, he's um chilling with the Jews, and he's eating um food um according to the you know ceremonial laws and you know dietary requirements, and he's separating himself from the Gentiles, and then what happens um is uh you know, he's kind of going back to to the old. And Paul says, Hey, bro, this is not this is not cool. Like, this is not the way to do it. Paul not only calls him out publicly right there in that moment, um, but he actually like jumps on a podcast. Like he writes a letter to tell everybody about this moment. Why he's not he's not being divisive, he's not you know kind of dropping Paul in it, he's just talking openly and honestly about the things we're getting wrong, and here's what we need to do right. And it's like a just a healthy, good, robust conversation, right? And so I think we are way too afraid of these conversations and we're way too uh defensive um uh when we talk about these these concepts, uh, because immediately we put people in the category of this person is oh, that could be misconstrued. Oh, what if it creates this? And it's like, why don't we just look at the Bible? Why don't we just uh look at it from scratch and uh and and and have a proper conversation, right? And so I what I want to suggest is that honor is good, but over-honouring actually um doesn't help us. It doesn't help us as, you know, just Joe Blocks in the congregation, and it doesn't help us as leaders. Like it doesn't help me to be treated like a king, it doesn't help me when people go, oh Pastor, da da da da. It doesn't help me when people treat me with slightly too much respect. It actually creates like a barrier in our relationship and it creates um something that almost like forces me to be not my true self, right? As a leader. So I saw this clip. Uh I I've been thinking about honor for a long time, but this clip sort of popped up on um somebody's podcast, uh, you know, that I follow, and they they posted this clip or this gentleman, I I don't know him, but um, you know, it looks from his Instagram page that he's the pastor of a large church. So and he was just talking about, you know, how someone had given him advice about um uh how you know his family couldn't compete with the church, you know, the applause, the being treated like a king, you know, the the the the celebration, um, you know, and all these these things. And he and he was just talking about how someone had really encouraged him to make sure that he stayed grounded at home, you know, because come home and you know, change the nappies and look after the kids and mop the floor and do things to make sure they're grounded, which is obviously like a great idea, being grounded um as a leader. But I think the thing that was really missing from this um clip, and it was only a clip I saw, so maybe they did go into it. But my feeling is that they were talking about things that are um, you know, it's almost like talking about the peripheral thing without talking about the main thing. Because the main question for me is why would you do church in that way? Right? In a way that leans into applause, that leans into the position, that leans into the sense of uh over-honour of a preacher. Um, you know, things like, oh, we're gonna stand up now and honor the word of God as the preacher comes up, you know, and then we clap for the preacher, right? It's it's like I I understand why we might do that because we're sort of raising our expectation, we're honoring the moment, but the reality is that what it really does is tickle our ego. Let's just I understand, like, because I'm a preacher, like I love the feeling of, you know, it's like people hanging on your word, God working through you. It's an incredible moment. Like, it's one of the reasons that I love doing what I'm doing, and it makes me feel alive and all these things. But also, honestly, like it it's like a it's a high, you know, it's it's like a drug to our soul because you feel fulfilled, right? You you're living out your purpose. So, why would I lean into that in a way that makes that moment even more sacred than it already is? That makes that moment feel even bigger than it already is by leaning into the applause, leaning into, and this is where I what I would describe as over-honour. This is what I describe as moving from honor into some level of almost worship at times in the way that we treat preaching and we treat pastors, and ultimately I don't think it's healthy for us as leaders. I don't want to create that environment because it's not good for me, and also it disempowers people, right? It disempowers people because the in a way the overhonouring of leaders means that I end up dishonoring myself. I see myself as lesser, which is why, you know, I I I've had people say to me, I remember meeting a mum a friend of my my mum's um a while ago, and she was like, Oh, I wish a pastor was in my house, you know, praying for me. You know, like she was like jealous of my mum that I lead in the church, right? And and and so like, and I just remember thinking, like, yeah, but your prayers are just as good. Right. I didn't say that, I was polite, I just you know, did the thing. But I I was just remember thinking, like, just yeah, but your prayers are powerful. My prayers are not better. Like, just because I do what I'm doing, just because I have more time to spend on this, and because I'm called to do a particular, you know, function within uh, you know, our local church, like your prayers matter, right? So there's a there's an and I've seen this a lot, I've seen this happen a lot that people idolize the idea of pastoring, they idolize the idea of leadership, and really it's a fruit that is downstream from the culture that we've created of honoring. And so we don't often realize because we'll you know we're seeing the fruit of what's happening, it looks good on the surface, but but deeper in people's minds, we're planting seeds that kind of say, uh, hey, uh, what you do is less important. So when we see the work in the church as more important than the work of someone going into an office and do you know what I mean, or doing the school run, all these kind of things, like obviously we're gonna disempower people because that is not true. We we all are important, we are all significant. So I'm not trying to take away from the role of pastors, preachers, and leaders and all these things. I think it's fantastic. That you know, that's what I do. But I want to make sure that I use my position to set the record state straight and actually empower other people. And this is really the truest version of biblical honor that we see when Paul actually talks. I think it's in 1 Corinthians 12, um, where he talks about um the body of Christ. And and he actually explains that, you know, every part of the body is different, some are more visible than others, and some are less visible. And he explains that, you know, just how in the body the parts that are less visible we actually clothe with more honor to protect them, right? He explains that that's also what we do in the body of Christ. And so my take on this is that those who are visible, i.e., people on the microphone, leaders like me, our job is not to create an honor around what we do. That's what I think most honor cultures do. They reinforce the position and they reinforce unintentionally. I I think people got a lot of good hearts here thinking this is gonna help people because they're gonna honor God, da da da. You know, that's fine. Like, but I just want to say that's not how it works because what the Bible tells us to do is the opposite. That I use my position in power to serve others by honoring others. So every time I lean into a culture that honors me, I'm ultimately not serving my I'm not serving other people, right? But every time I actually take the chance to use my position in power and make it less, right? So every time someone wants to call me pastor, I say, oh, don't worry about calling me pastor, just call me sets. Why? Because I'm actively dismantling the false idea they have in their mind that I am more important than they are, right? Now, maybe maybe they don't think that, but honestly, I can tell you right now, a lot of people do think that. A lot of people in my context do think that. Maybe there'll be a time, and maybe in other cultures, right? Because you may be from a culture where that's not the case. Well, then maybe, maybe you're fine, right? But I'm just saying from where I'm sitting here in the West, um, this is a huge problem. Um, and that that that sense of you know a pastor being more important, um, it needs to change because it's not helping people see what they do as being important and therefore they're disempowered. So we've got a clear example of honoring it, like it's in the scripture there. And one of the other examples that I really like, and let me let me just go to um 1 Timothy um chapter uh five for a moment, because this is an important one that talks about honoring elders, by the way. And we've got a whole thing on um plural leadership that you should check that out on episode two. Verse 17, it says, Let the elders who rule well, so it's plural there, which is interesting, um, be considered worthy of double honour, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching. And so people normally just stop there and say, Yeah, look, see, we're supposed to honor our leaders. Now we are, right? So I don't want to disagree with you. For the scripture says, verse 18, you shall not muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain, and the laborer deserves his wages. Um, right? So so what's the direct context that Paul is actually talking about? He's talking about making sure that we um resource and pay people who are leading in the church, especially people who are preaching, right? So that's that's that's the context. So just for the record, I think we should be doing that. I think if people are gonna lay their lives down to, you know, build a church and serve in this position, let's pay them properly. Like that's a good thing. So Paul is emphasizing this, saying, well, you know, if we don't pay people, they're not gonna stick around and be able to do, because they're gonna have, you know, they they got to eat and they gotta feed their family and whatever else, right? Um, but then he goes on to say in verse 19, do not admit a charge against an elder except on the evidence of two or three witnesses. As for those who persist in sin, rebuke them in the presence of all so that the rest may stand in fear. And he says, in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of the elect angels, I charge you to keep these rules without prejudging, doing nothing from partiality. Um, and so what we also see that comes with honor is also a really high standard, right? So Paul is saying, Hey, don't just if one person just gets up and has a complaint, don't take it seriously. But if two or three people or more starts to get together and say, hey, there's this issue, also don't dismiss it. So right here we see this idea that challenge and criticism is part of the scripture in the New Testament. That if you lead, you are held to account, right? And yet, what often happens with honor culture is the opposite. It's like, well, we can't question that person, we just sort of get on board or we just leave or whatever, right? There's no space, there's no invitation for challenge. And nobody really explained to me the dynamics of power when I um first became a leader. I was just me, I was just some 20-something. Do you know what I mean? Like no one really talked to me about how it would change my relationships with people. But over time, I began to realize I have like a it's like a soft power, right? Over people because people see you up on a stage and they they hear you, you know, and and therefore they treat you in a way where you know they they you you have power over those people. And so it's so important for us to understand that and also to teach the next generation as they step into you know leadership roles, that they understand that that that power is something that we really have to steward um really well. And if we don't deliberately create a culture where people can challenge what we say, right, then we're gonna find that people will naturally, and again, this is very cultural, like it really depends um how you're raised, what your church environment is. But I'm finding in our context here in London that a lot of people won't will never challenge anything I say as a pastor, right? Because they're they've been taught not to. Like there's a respect and awe that moves like slightly too far. And so I could get away with saying a lot of things, and people won't ever correct me because they don't have permission to. And so I have to create very deliberately a culture where I create that permission and I invite rebuke and I invite challenge and I let people know that hey, just because I'm called and anointed and blah blah blah and gifted and you know, love Jesus and study the Bible and all these things, just because of that doesn't mean, first of all, that I'm always right, it doesn't mean I won't change my mind, it doesn't make me um superhuman. I'm just a human being, I'm a fellow servant, right? Like I'm a fellow priest with a gifting with a function to build up the body, but we are equal, we are on the same level here, and that's the shift from Old Testament to New Testament. That's New Testament leading. Right there. And what I find, this is the really interesting thing. The more that I lean into that way of thinking, the more that I invite, for example, in our team of five, which is how we lead the church, um, you know, as a team, right? The more I open up the floor to what everybody else thinks and to make sure that I don't kind of, you know, end up occupying that I'm in charge spot. The more I do that, the more people want to listen to what I have to say. And so there's this hilarious inversion which Jesus actually tells us about, which he says the first will be last, the last will be first. Just humble yourself and God will exalt you, right? So what happens as leaders is when we actually actively build the opposite of an honor culture. I don't know what we're calling that, but I maybe it's a humility culture. Maybe it's a culture where we really do, you know, we don't um rely on our power and position, but um we really open up the floor to the Holy Spirit and we create space. Um, what we're gonna find is that your voice will have more power. And so it's like this beautiful dance, right? This is the dance of honor, this is the dance of humility, this is the dance of love. When you think of um a marriage, husband and wife, as they prefer one another, they keep preferring one another, they keep submitting to one another, they keep building one another up. It's like you have this beautiful um, you know, just love, the dance of love. And you see this in the person of God, right? God is a triune God, like, you know, one being, one indivisible will, uh three persons uh who prefer one another, if you like, and like you know, submit to one another and and and give over to the other. And and and that's that that in that tension of those things coming together, that's where we get something really healthy. So I guess what I'm trying to say is um, you know, I'm not against power. I think power helps us get things done, right? But the way that we use power is so important. If we use power to cement our power and to kind of feed back to us and preserve our position, we're gonna find it's it doesn't actually do what we want it to in the long term, and we're gonna create some unhealthy cultures um as we get there. So I want to just address one thing that um I've talked about quite a lot on on Instagram, just because it's kind of like a funny example, um, and this is the use of titles, right? So let me just say like it really it's really not about what you say so much as about where your heart is in this. Like I think we all understand that, and that's sometimes been one of one of the things that's come back in the comments, like you know, but it's not about the title, it's about the position. Okay, fair enough. But I but I think we can all also acknowledge that the use of titles can build the wrong sort of culture. So, in everything I'm talking about here, like I can create like a beautiful space for people to challenge and be open and you know, uh, you know, lay down my life for other people. But if I insist that people call me pastor sats, does that not reinforce the opposite idea with my language of what I'm actually saying? Right? So creating a culture where I'm gonna call everyone pastor so-and-so and pastor so-and-so and and talk about these ideas like um, you know, the the ha these titles like this is the way it should be done, um, is actually, I think, not gonna serve my mission. And so I want to notice just a couple of things. Firstly, in the scripture, there seem to be like no titles. Like, I I don't know, like I just I've never seen anyone go, oh, and Pastor Peter's gonna say, or Apostle Paul's gonna say, da-da-da-da. What we do have is we do have a healthy sort of ownership of this person is that, you know. So Paul, Paul introduces himself, I'm an apostle of Jesus Christ, right? But he never says, I'm the Apostle Paul. Like, he doesn't he doesn't use it as a title, um, he uses it to describe his function, right? Because he is an apostle. He's like, I don't I don't care what you think, like I know who I am. But he also refers to himself as a slave, a slave of Christ Jesus. I think this is Paul very deliberately trying to ground himself and also let other people know hey, just because I'm this absolute boss who God works through, I just want you to know that we're all still equal here. And I'm still just a servant, a slave of Jesus. And so what we see is we don't see titles really used at all. And and so I think you need a really good argument to use them. And and one of the arguments is um, you know, it's nice to know for people what you do, right? Like to describe the function. I think that's totally fine. But I think someone can know that you're a pastor without having to call you pastor so-and-so, you know, every time they refer to you, right? So I think there is um just it's just kind of just interesting, right? Um the other thing that I think is important to say is that I do have to apologize because I've got all sorts of building work happening around me at the moment, so you might be able to hear some of that noise. Um, but the other thing to say is that Jesus quite specifically um speaks about titles and he rebukes the Pharisees. I think it's in Matthew chapter 23, where he says, you know, uh, you guys all want the best seats in the synagogue, you know, you love to be sort of greeted and called rabbi, you know, in the marketplace. So he calls out that sort of behavior, right? And the desire to be um, you know, noticed and all these sort of things, and he calls it out, which is which is a heart issue, but he says, you know, but don't don't call someone else father, don't you because you've got one father in the heaven. Now, is he being super literal? Can you never call someone? No, I I think it's fine. You can call your doctor doctor or whatever. But I think when it comes to the church, what what he's saying is what he's trying to remind us of is hey, we're all children of God. You know, there's no separation because that's what was happening with the Pharisees, is they were becoming like a sort of elite class of believers, let's say, and everybody else felt lesser than them because they lent into it. And I believe, friends, that is what has happened in the modern church. I think I think we have uh elevated the positions of uh quote unquote ministry, and we've missed the fact that ministry belongs to the saints, not to the pastors, not to the apostles, not to the prophets. Like they're the equippers, that's good, we want them to do that. Um, but the ministry belongs to the saints, and so by elevating like a class of clergy, what we actually do is we disempower everyone else. And this is the exact point that Jesus is making. He's he's not making a super, you know, literal legalistic point. He's saying the use of titles and the way you're going about how you do everything is not serving my vision for what God's house should look like. And so I wanna, it's such a small thing, right? Like, who cares if there's a title or not? I think the pushback to titles is fascinating because I think it shows that for a lot of people it is a big thing. We really need this. Otherwise, this breaks our entire theology. This breaks how people will, how how will people obey? How will people fall in line if we don't have titles, if we don't have this culture of honor? And I think that's really that's really what honor does is it creates control, it creates a sense of alignment where everyone can get on board because there's a clear hierarchy, there's a clear person in charge. And I just gotta ask, like, is that the way it's supposed to be? Is that what Jesus designed? Do we need somebody in charge? Like, yes, that's how the world works, that's how businesses run, that's how CEOs work, but look at the nature of God Himself. It's plural in nature, born God, three persons, right? Completely equal. There's there's the father is not, you know, higher up than the son. Uh the spirit is not lower down than the son, right? They are completely equal, but giving themselves in love. They're building, you know, like they're they're preferring one another. This is the model for how God wants us to do everything from marriage to church. We recognize function, but hierarchy, I'm really struggling to see it. Now, there is, um, I'll just save this for another episode. There is an argument uh around hierarchy um which talks more about apostles and there's some theology there. Um, I'll just say, just to end, that I believe apostles are given temporary authority in the same way that a father or a mother is given temporary authority over their children, but the goal is to release them and to give the power to the child, right? So that they become their own thing. In the same way, apostles are supposed to, you know, start things and then they release and give power over to a team of elders or pastors who then run the church as a true um team in plurality. Um, so anyway, there's a whole bunch there we could go off. Uh, this is turning into a long podcast episode, but I hope you found it helpful. And um, if you've got any questions or comments, uh come and say hello over on Instagram at SatsSolanke. I would appreciate that. And uh I would also really be grateful if you could leave me a rating and a review on this podcast. Are you finding it helpful? Is there someone you'd like to share this with? Just go smash the ideally the five stars. But you know, you can choose uh to keep it honest, right? But just write something, a few words, just to let me know how we're doing and so that we can uh share this podcast with um more people because I really believe that there's some things here um that could really help us create um healthier churches and uh and I think just the next generation of leaders creating more um you know environments for them to learn how to do things um could be really cool and save us from a lot of drama in the future. So uh bless you guys. Thanks for listening today. Uh, we'll see you in the next episode.