Should we use titles?

Jesus expressly told us not to use honorific titles. Not just once but three times in Matthew 23. Does this mean we can't call our parents, mum and dad? Or that we can't refer to a doctor as doctor? Not quite.

The point Jesus is making is that whenever titles are loaded to protect and serve an existing power dynamic, we should refrain from using them. This is exactly how the Pharisees used titles and exactly how a large chunk of the modern church uses titles today.

In this episode, we'll dig into the theology of titles and power dynamics. I also talk about how we discovered language for leadership in our local context in London, UK.

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If you're still reading, my name is Sats Solanki aka Digital Rabbi. I lead Reflect Church in London, UK. If you'd like to connect then head over to Insta @satsolanki or head to https://digitalrabbi.co. To find out more about Reflect Church head to https://reflect.church

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:08

Well, hello and welcome to the Leadership Horticulture Podcast. My name is Sat Solanke, otherwise known as the Digital Rabbi, and uh it's great to be hanging out today. So wherever you are from across the world, uh whether you found me on Instagram or a friend has sent you this podcast, we're gonna be talking about all things church leadership and in particular theology and culture. And uh really a lot of the ideas that I'm gonna share here um have been things that I've really been thinking about for the last five or six years since we planted um a church in London, we planted out of an existing church that sort of died, and it died because of a failure of church leadership. Um, not just church leadership though, not just one person making one mistake once, it was an issue around culture. And so, as we sort of came out of that experience, pretty smashed by it, to be honest, um, just so many questions about what is it like to build something that's correct? What does the right culture look like? And of course, you know, culture is one of those uh, you know, there's a lot of different ways to do things, right? There's not only one way, but um, I think in that process and that journey of really just trying to search the scriptures, talk to God, talk to people, get more examples about how this can be. I just started to realize like so much of what is taught in my circles or the Pentecostal circles around leadership, um, was just really wrong. And I was like, why is nobody talking about uh how to do it correctly? If you go to any big leadership conference um, you know, across the globe, uh, what are you gonna get for the church? You're gonna get somebody who's leading a large church. You'll never really hear someone who's leading a small church give a session on a uh on a leadership teaching, right? And why is that? Um I'm not saying big is bad or small is better, it's just interesting to me that we gravitate towards the fast-growing churches, the large churches, the people who've built something at scale. And again, this is fantastic stuff to do. We we want to see the kingdom of God grow, but large is not necessarily necessarily successful, it's definitely not necessarily a good culture. And so what we want to make sure is that what we're building is gonna last and it's gonna reproduce the right things, um, i.e., the culture and ingredients of the kingdom of God. And too many churches have grown quickly, looked very successful, but actually, if you dig beneath it all, um, you know, it hasn't lasted, the fruit hasn't sucked. And so I'm really just I I do not want to go to the effort. You if you're a church leader, you know how much effort it is to love people, to lead people, to build the church and to be faithful and all these things. And it's like to go to all that effort, but to build it on the wrong culture, I mean, that just seems like such a waste of time. So I'm just personally here on a journey trying to like wrestle with it. So so today I'm I want to I want us to talk about um a topic that like people people feel very upset about. I I've gotta say, like I've gotta say I really don't care very much about this topic, but I I've noticed that it's one of the sort of um things that uh trigger people, it's an emotional topic for people, and it's the topic of titles. I mean, who cares, right? Who cares what we call what we do? Like it's not really a big deal. Um, I don't really care what people call me. I'm just gonna get on with what I'm called to do, right? Love people, lead people, build people up, teach the word of God. Like it's all just great classic stuff, right? And you're probably like me thinking, oh, what's the big deal? But but I've just noticed that like it really upsets people um when I talk about this. And um, I want to just be clear as well that I'm not talking about things just from my own own imagination. There is like scripture on this, there are receipts on this, and I'm gonna go to in just a few moments to Matthew chapter 23, where Jesus very specifically addresses the use of titles, and and to be clear, he's not just referring to titles in general. Like sometimes people are like, hey, you know, we it's okay to call your doctor doctor, you know, why can't we call our pastor pastor? Well, I want to explain why there's a difference, um, and just how to understand um what Jesus is saying here. Uh, Jesus is criticizing in Matthew chapter 23 um the scribes and the Pharisees who use titles as a way of um kind of preserving their own power dynamic, right? So what it means is is that titles can become loaded terms. You know, words that are loaded. There are plenty of those here in 2026. But I would I would suggest that in many circles, and just my own personal experience, that when I when I tell people that I am a pastor, instantly something shifts atmospherically in that relationship, if it's the first time I've met them. And honestly, I don't really like that feeling. I remember I was at a friend's um uh birthday party, and um there were a bunch of his uh friends and family members who we didn't really know. Um it's quite a small gathering, and so we were there, we kind of got different different friendship groups kind of colliding, and you know, we're kind of chatting to people, and you know, people are nice enough, and it's all good. But at the end, everyone just kind of went around and said one thing about you know this person's birthday, and we just kind of said a few words, and then this uh our friend he says, Oh, by the way, that's my pastor, and and and I we'd very deliberately not said that, right? But instantly in the room, something just changed, and people were so interested in us in like a in a way that was beyond what they were before that the sense of honor that came into the room in this moment, I'm telling you guys, it's just so awkward, it's so awkward. Now, you may be familiar with that, maybe you're in an environment where that is not the case, in which case what I'm gonna say to you is not gonna be particularly interesting. But I I just think from my experience, I've seen in a lot of circles in the Pentecostal evangelical space that when you find out that someone leaves a church or it's a pastor or a preacher, it's gifted and anointed, um, something changes in the relationship. And and that's that's why I would suggest quite strongly that the word pastor um is a loaded term. And if it is a loaded term, I think we should do our due diligence in really just thinking through. Like I'm not gonna tell you what to do here, and I'll tell you what we do in our church in a moment, and we're still evolving in our language, but it's such a uh a loaded term, which means that we should be very thoughtful and sensitive about what language we use to describe ourselves and our position. Now, I'm gonna read some of Matthew chapter 23 in a moment. I won't read the whole thing. Um, it's kind of got a little title there that says Seven Woes to the Scribes and Pharisees. It's quite intense. Like Jesus is pretty passionate about this, he's not holding back. And uh I kind of just find it fascinating. I've never really heard a leader preach on this passage before. Um, so let's go there. Let's go. I always like to read the Bible with the bits that I haven't read for a while. I always think that's one of the best things I can do to make sure that I actually cover the full breadth of the scripture. You know, like you don't really want to read Leviticus, so I go and read Leviticus because I I know that I don't really want to. I don't really want to read Job, so I'll go and make sure that I read Job because I just want to make sure that we're getting the breadth of the scripture and we're getting the theme of the scripture, that we don't take things out of context. And um my feeling is that often around leadership, which the word leadership is not really used very much in the Bible. Um, and so I think often when people preach on leadership or talk about leadership or pre uh teach about leadership, what what they often do is they kind of retrofit what we currently do and just sort of like imprint it back on that original context and culture. And I think I think that's a mistake to do. So if if we come to Matthew chapter 23, um Jesus is um yeah, basically criticizing the the Pharisees, and he and he's this is what it says. He says, He said to the crowds and to his disciples, the scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat. So do and observe whatever they tell you, but not the works they do, for they preach, but they do not practice. Now I think this is really interesting as we're we're gonna see over the next few verses how much what Jesus describes um in his critique of the religious establishment of the day and you know the people who are in charge, how much of it is eerily similar to today, you know, a couple of thousand years later, and the exact same things seem to be popping up. And that's of course because the human heart is the human heart. Uh, we you know what I mean? Like we're all doing this pretty imperfectly and we're getting a lot of things wrong. And so I got grace for that, you know. Like I think we're gonna be kind to all of us who are on this journey, but at the same time, let's acknowledge the reality um that there are some things we should tweak in how we do church and the culture that we want to build. So Jesus is expressly telling us that, hey, you should do what these people are telling you to do. And in other words, he's saying, look, they are actually preaching mostly the right things. He's saying, look, they are talking about um, you know, the scriptures, they are talking about the Bible, but don't copy or emulate the way that they're living. Now, this is like not a great critique, right? You think, well, hang on a minute, how can this be true? But if we actually look today, you're gonna have known of a lot of people who were anointed, gifted ministers who really helped you understand the Bible, who imparted something to you, and yet have fallen, right? Like, and yet we find, discover later that the fruit of their life was not actually there, that their marriage wasn't great, or their their, you know, their emotional health wasn't great, or whatever it is, right? We've seen this scenario, sadly, occur many times where people are helping a lot of people, but personally the example of their life doesn't match what what they're actually preaching. Jesus acknowledges that here and he says, be careful. You know, it's like, look, you can get a bunch of stuff. I'm I'm a bit wary now of um not who I follow on social media, but who I'm there commenting, like going, oh, this is amazing, da-da-da-da. Because when I don't actually know people, I don't actually know what their life looks like. And one of the things I love in Acts chapter 2 is that it describes that the apostles, I think it's verse 42, so you know, they they devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching, and and then it talks about the breaking of bread and they're all one and it's this amazing picture of church, right? And uh the early church, at least, uh we want those ingredients today. It may look different, that's totally fine, and and it should. Um, but um, but what I love is that the same people who um were teaching them were the same people who they were breaking bread with. In other words, there was proximity, which meant that you could see, oh, Peter's legit. You know, John is legit. We see the way that he's living his life. And I think one of the issues with social media, and you can even find this with me. I'm just for some of you, I'm just some guy in the internet. It's like you need people locally in your life who you can connect with and actually see their example. You don't just want to assume, hey, this person's gifted, therefore, um, they've got the fruit of the spirit. Well, they may preach really well on the fruit of the spirit, but we don't actually know if they have it because social media is curated. We're seeing from a distance. And so I think there is a problem with a church where you can't really get to know the people who are leading it. Now, obviously, in a large church, it gets more and more difficult, but we don't want to lean into cultures that create separation between clergy and congregation. We actually want to do the opposite. We want to try and undo it. It's one of the reasons um I've talked about um, you know, the need for a team to lead as a team. Uh, go check out that episode if you're interested in learning the scriptural basis behind it. But I think one of the reasons is it just means we can get to know people, uh, you know, there's not that separation between one or two people at the top, a couple or a guy typically, um, and the everybody else, where it's going to be impossible for everybody um to know that person. But with a team, that's one of the things that you can still accomplish. You can still get proximity um in that way. And so perhaps the team, the size of that eldership team needs to grow um with the church and the way that it's um structured. So, okay, back to Matthew um chapter 23. Remember, we're talking about how um titles can be loaded terms, and this seems to be exactly what Jesus is coming for here because he says these words. He says, Um, you know, they tie up heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on people's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to move them with their finger. And then he says in verse 5, they do all their deeds to be seen by others. Okay, this is the this is a thing. Uh, for they make their phylacteries broad and their fringes long. These were kind of like um ways of demonstrating uh religiosity. Um, culturally, we don't really get what that means now. They got long fringes? What's the what's the big deal? But that was to do with them people seeing how great they were, seeing how religious they were. Uh, when you think about how we curate things on social media now, like there's there is a lot of that. Um uh they do all that deeds to be seen by others. Um and verse six, they love the place of honor and feasts and the best seats in the synagogues. Um, I've grown up in a church culture that there is a front row culture. Uh, the front row is reserved for the right people because the culture is supposed to get set from the front. And so when you get asked to sit on the front row, it really was like an honor. Like you were like, wow, I've been chosen. Like, I I kind of remember the first time it sort of happened, it was like, wow, I'm on the front row. Like it was such a big deal. Why? Like, it's just a seat, right? But because the culture had made it into a big deal. This is not about where do you sit, like nobody cares? Like, God doesn't care where you sit, right? But what he does care about is when we make where we sit a loaded thing, that it becomes meaning that we're attached to it, spiritual meaning. We say, Well, this person is holier or better than another, this person is ahead, and that's what front row culture does. Um, right there, and and right here it's happening with the Pharisees. They love the place of honor and the best seats. They want to sit in the place of honor where people can see them and people can see, wow, this person is um legit. And verse 7, and greetings in the marketplaces and being called rabbi by others. So there it is. Uh, we're coming into titles, and I want to I'm gonna read the rest of it, but I want I want you just to notice something. Jesus actually sticks on the point of titles um for quite a bit of time. Um there's quite a bit there. So he says, you know, they love the greetings in the marketplaces, being called rabbi by others, rabbi means teacher, of course, but you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brothers. And call no man your father on earth, for you have one father who is in heaven, neither be called instructors, for you have one instructor, the Christ. The greatest among you shall be your servant, and whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be uh exalted. So I want you just to notice before we dig into this, um, that and it goes on by the way, in verse 13, woe to you about this, woe to you. And it kind of Jesus really has a prophetic rant here, he's not holding back. Um, but but notice, notice this that um Jesus iterates this three times. Is it three times or is it more? By the way, I'm reading from the ESB translation, English Standard Um version. Yeah, you know, he says that you love being called rabbi. He says, but you are not to be called rabbi for you have one teacher, that's the first time. Then it says, You're not to be you call no man your father because you have one father in heaven, that's the second time. And it says, Neither be called instructors, for you have one instructor. So whenever um something is repeated in the scripture, this is why they say holy, holy, holy, you know, not just holy once, it's like holy, holy, holy, you know, about God, because um when you say something again and again, particularly in this language and culture, it's really driving home the point. Jesus is really driving home this point, like he's not holding back and he's using lots of different language, teacher, father, instructor. What is he? What is he saying? Is he saying never describe what a person does in position? Right? Is he saying never call your doctor doctor? Is he saying never call your mama dad, mama, dad? Like, no, he's obviously not saying that. There is no problem for me, um, or for God, in my opinion, of having a positional title. This person has a position, a role. Um, this person is a doctor, this person is a teacher, this person is a government worker. Like, there's you know, like this person is a pastor. There's no, there's nothing wrong with it when it is purely functional. I think the issue though that Jesus seems to be tapping into is that what if it's not functional? What if it's attached to the heart and the spirit of the Pharisees, which is we want to be seen, we want to be noticed, we need people to know how important we are, because this is how we're getting our sort of spiritual identity. It's from what other people think about us. That's when Jesus is like, this is really unhelpful culture. He's not even saying it's unhelpful, he's saying this is wrong. Do not do this, do not call someone your father. Like, but at the same time, we can acknowledge that there are people in our lives who've played the role of spiritual father, right? We can acknowledge that we have teachers, we can acknowledge that we have instructors. I right now, ironically, am using this brand name of digital rabbi. Like, there's nothing wrong with that. It's just a cool phrase. Like, I know that I'm called to teach, put stuff out there, I'm here online. I just like the way it sounded. But but the point is that the word rabbi, at least in my context, because I'm not Jewish, is not really a loaded term in any way. It's just a cool way of saying teacher. It kind of taps into the roots and all that kind of stuff. So there's no issue with using titles or describing what people do. Um, but in this case, the titles are loaded, they have pre-existing cultural meaning, and Jesus is pushing back on that. Why? Because it's actually not serving people, it's creating the separation between um the spiritual class of people who do the work of ministry, the leaders, um, you know, the Pharisees, etc., the scribes, and the everyday people. And he's saying, hey guys, you're all brothers. Let's get rid of this, let's bring equality into the mix. We're all here following following God together. We're all here learning together. And yes, some of us have roles to play. That's good. We have functions. Um, so I'm not here getting rid of leadership functions, they exist. I I have one in our local church, and I'll talk to you about um uh what how we use language in a in a moment, which is still evolving. Um, but uh we're not anti-leadership here. This is not the anti-leadership horticulture podcast. This is we're trying to redefine what leadership is, and we're trying to get away from the culture where where Jesus says whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted. Jesus is pushing back on the way we use titles to create exactly what I've described at the start when I talked about the story with my friend, where it changes the relationship, it reinforces a power dynamic that Jesus says, don't use power to reinforce your power, you know, don't secure and cement your position by leaning into the role, instead, lay down the role, and that's what we see in Philippians chapter 2, where Jesus, you know, it describes Jesus, you know, who empty himself. You know, although he is God, he empties himself and becoming human and then dying on the cross. So he goes completely the opposite way, and of course, he is therefore exalted because of that. And so Jesus, the greatest leader of time, the greatest, you know, like he's got all of the power, and yet he lays down his power. He doesn't utilize his power to serve himself, he uses it and he lays it down to serve others. And so we have to ask the question when we lean into titles, is it serving us or is it serving others? You know, because there's kind of this idea, oh, you know, when when people have a proper honor for a leader, it's actually helping them. I think this is a this is a false idea, guys. This I think we've really twisted uh the scripture to get to that the idea. You know, this is good for people to call us pastor, you know, because then they're gonna learn hierarchy, then they're gonna learn their place, they're gonna submit in the right way. I mean, we've talked about these concepts in other places, but the overwhelming picture of the New Testament, if we would actually read it, is of a family, brothers and sisters, of which Jesus is the firstborn. It's not of mothers and fathers, right? And that's why the language used to describe leaders in the New Testament is primarily the word elder. The word pastor appears as a noun when it's not describing shepherds, literal shepherds, hanging out with sheep, or Jesus himself, is only used once in Ephesians chapter four. And even then, that reference is actually it's more like the shepherd teachers than it is the shepherds and the teachers because of the way the definite article is missed out from the word teacher. So that's a whole fascinating thing. So it's kind of like almost one reference to the word pastor, uh, but the the New Testament actually refers primarily to elders, it also uses the word for overseers, um, but actually they're used interchangeably. So the elders are instructed to pastor the flock, to shepherd the flock, and uh in all the instructions you see when they're talking to elders and they're talking to overseers, and they just seem to swap out these terms interchangeably, that's because they're using multiple bits of language to refer to the same role. But interestingly, isn't it, that the word elder, which is the main word that is used, is um this idea of just being an older person, you know, like not a not a father or a mother necessarily, but being an older brother, coming alongside, just someone who's a little bit further on than you. Like, isn't that such a great picture of what leadership actually should be? Coming alongside people, like, yeah, we need people who are mature, who are spiritually gifted, who are called by God to lead. It's fantastic. We we knew all of that, and I believe in my local context, that's what God has called me to do. But I I just don't think that it necessarily helps people um to use titles. So, what should we say? What should we actually use? What language should we use? And this is where um it's really about um context, it's really about your own conviction, it's about your own culture. Um, and so what we do is probably not going to be right for you, but all I know is that we're not supposed to lean into the culture that glorifies us. We're not supposed to use leadership to uh promote the idea of leadership as being the most important thing. And some models of church um are built entirely upon that idea. I know ours was, but I've heard teaching since in different environments that I've thought this is not good, and it's the idea that hey, let's just focus on the tap, the top, you know, 10%, the top 1%, the people who call to lead. If we build leaders, then the church will grow, and it will, the church will grow, but you'll also disregard a huge percentage of the church who is not called. To be a leader in the church, we're called to be a musician or called to be in business or called to just be at home and love their children. Like, do you know what I mean? Like it's such a narrow view of church. So it will look successful, it will grow quickly, but it will also have a very high rate of attrition, which is um how quickly people leave. And this is the kind of dirty little secret in many mega churches. Unfortunately, it's very sad, but it is the case that it grows very quickly, and a lot of people get spit out the other side and dis discarded because they don't fit and they can't keep up. It creates a culture of comparison, a culture of envy, where we're always wanting to be, you know, exactly what the Pharisees created, exactly what Jesus references here. And man, I just can't believe that um we we would dare do the opposite of what Matthew Matthew chapter 23 is saying. I don't know how you have the courage to go against what Jesus directly says. When it's a loaded term, don't use it. So, what should we do? Very practically, let's end on this. How should we use um terms? So, personally, you know, because I've been a bit wounded by the overuse of titles, I needed to go extreme for a moment. I don't know if everybody needs to do that, but for a moment, I just needed to drop all titles. I just needed, don't even call me pastor, don't even call me. I was just like, I was just like terri almost terrified of it. But I think I've come back to more of a healthy, um, just sort of middle ground. Um, I think, you know, for me the word elder um is nice because it describes the plurality that is something we've leaned to into in our church. Uh, the early church was led by, you know, teams, uh, teams of apostles, uh, pastoral teams, eldership teams, right? So the pattern I see overwhelming in scripture is that teams of apostles start things, they start the church. So you've got Paul, who also has a team. Uh Timothy's on his team, Titus is on his team. They're not senior pastors, is often misunderstood, because Paul sends them for a short period of time to Ephesus, to Crete, and they're there like less than a couple of years, probably. That's you know, our best guess from um the other letters and history. Um, they're not there very long. So they they're clearly not um, you know, a senior pastoral who goes in and stays for 20 years to like love the people. That's not it. They're going in to establish a team and then they appoint elders. That's what Paul tells Titus, appoint a team of elders. That's what the language actually says. Not just one elder in each um city, appoint a team of elders in each city. So that's the pattern we can kind of see. So I like the term elders for that reason. But if I'm also honest, like um in our culture and context here in London in the UK, the word elder just sounds a bit weird to me. Um, it just I don't know, we we just couldn't quite get ahead around it. So I just felt strange calling myself an elder. We're quite a young church as well, so there's kind of that dynamic. So we're we weren't really there. So the the term we settled on the end was just leader. We're leaders of the church, right? Which is like the most boring and uninteresting term ever. But right now, I think that works really well. The thing I love to say in my in myself, so when I get up uh on stage to preach or whatever, I just say, Hey, I'm Sats, I'm part of the team here. Um, so we see it as a leadership team. Um, you could use the word eldership team. Um, I don't think it 100% matters. I think this is where I started the podcast episodes. Like, does it really matter what we call ourselves? So I'll say, Yeah, I'm part of the team, yeah, I'm a leader in this church, I say I'm a pastor. Like I can say, I can say only any of those things, but I tend to try and just lean away from saying I'm the pastor or I'm a lead pastor or senior pastor. Why? I mean, some of those terms are like it's they're not theologically inaccurate, depending on how you structure things, right? But um, I just find that when you say that, it creates um uh it loads the conversation, right? Uh, and so amongst other leaders and pastors, I don't really care so much. Someone wants to call me the senior pastor, like whatever, you know, like it doesn't really bother me, but with our congregation and how we talk in general, I think dismantling the over-emphasis of titles is a really important part of actually dismantling the overemphasis of leadership. That's really the issue here. When we overemphasize leadership, we end up de-emphasizing everything else, and that's obviously not good for the body of Christ. And so, isn't it funny how we use the idea of full-time ministry to describe leadership? When the Bible doesn't do that, the word ministry means service. And in Ephesians chapter four, it says that actually there's equipping roles, of which that's the reference where pastors are are there, and that those who are equipping they equip the saints for the work of ministry. So ministry belongs to the saints, not to the clergy, not just to the leaders, it belongs to all of us, and that's because we're all brothers and sisters of Christ. We all have a purpose and calling, even if we don't end up leading a church, that's fine. We actually don't want everybody to lead a church. It would be a terrible world if the only thing we had was church leaders. And I say that as a church leader, not to um, you know, not because I don't see the value of what I do. I think what I do is freaking important, guys. This is not coming from an inferiority complex. I think we need pastors, we need leaders, we need church planners, we need all the giftings, we need all the functions. But can we just please stop overemphasizing? And I think one of the cultural ways we can do that, get rid of the titles. Jesus tells us that it Matthew chapter 23. So you need a good reason not to, really. So I one final thing just to say I think you know it is helpful to describe what people do, right? So I think in that sense, um, have something that describes the function, the function of what you do. So, for example, on our team, um, one of our team, Anna, she is our family's pastor because that that is really the primary thing that she does. She, you know, builds out the kids and the youth and uh takes care of families, she is pastoring them. So we call her the family's pastor. You know, when when sometimes people have like a worship pastor, and that's where I think like it's it for me, it's a little bit more dubious. Like, I I don't know, like the person who leads the worship team and organizes the songs and prays, you know, there it's an important spiritual role, but are they really a pastor or are they leading us in worship? Okay, they're shepherding us into worship. I mean, okay, fine, you can find what you want, but I think for me, this is a clear example of everybody's gotta be a pastor. And I just think, first of all, there's like a bunch of other giftings. Like, why is it that we only land on pastor, but we don't talk about apostles or prophets, or do you know what I mean? Like, if we're gonna use titles, use it for all of them equally, first of all. Um, but I would recommend not leaning into the titles, making everything just a bit more accurate and a bit more ordinary. And uh, I think people honor you for what you do and your function. So I don't feel like in our church people don't appreciate the role that I play because I've stopped going around calling myself the lead pastor. I think people still think I love Sats, I'm so glad that he's here. Yeah, like they there's respect, there's a good honor, there's you know, like it's there's a good, healthy relationship there. And uh, I don't think that's got anything to do with the title. I think if anything, getting rid of that sort of culture makes people respect you more because they appreciate you um empowering them and celebrating them and using your power uh to celebrate others. So I hope you found that very helpful and uh love to know your thoughts because Matthew chapter 23 is just so clear, it's like what where are you how are you getting rid of that? Like when you think about the way that honoring titles is used, um, is really not seen anywhere in the Bible. Like, as much as you look at passages on honor, which actually, largely speaking, are talking about financial rewarding, paying staff, um, like it's hard to get to the the way we use titles today from the scripture, and then there is Jesus saying this very specifically. So it's wild, guys. It's just wild. I just want to ask you one quick question as um as we end. So today's podcast episode is actually sponsored by the Church Co., who is run by a really good friend of mine called um Paul, uh recent friend, we got to know each other, but I just rate what he's doing. It's um a website company. So, one really important question for you when you think about your church website, maybe the creative person involved or you're the leader of the church. Um, is your church um ready for AI? That's quite an important live question. You've probably heard of SEO, search engine optimization. Um, but have you heard of AEO, answer engine optimization, right? So when when someone puts into Chat GPT, uh show me a friendly church near where I live or a Pentecostal church near me, like is your church going to come up? That's that's the question. Because the thing I've realized is that we're not actually, it's not like we're competing against each other as churches, but we also know that not all churches are equal. Like I live quite close to a um a church here that is basically recognized as a cult here in London. Like it's well documented, they've been investigated by the charities commission. It's like pretty bad, you know. Um, there's some of the gospel in there, but it's it's it's not a healthy environment. And you know, when people search on on ChatGPT for a local church, I don't want them finding this church, right? Because they get pulled in, and then you know, it's just like it's a dangerous environment. And your church, I'm assuming, is quite a good environment, I hope. And you want people to be able to find you. And so when people are praying at home and just feeling, I should probably go to a church. Where can I find out? Oh my god, about Christianity, you want yours to come up. And so, what's great about the church go is um Paul is a dev, he's a developer, and so the the the assistant that they roll out is is amazing, like it's really high quality, and they are thinking about AI. And so I just want to recommend you recommend them to you because there's so many options out there. You could get some random guy in your church to do it, but you got to ask ask questions like is this gonna be easy to edit um, you know, in the future? Uh, is this gonna continue to be you know updated as AI uh progresses? And so it's a subgrip subscription package, they build your website for you, it's a custom website, uh, and then you can edit it and all this kind of stuff. It's just actually a great setup. So I just want to encourage you to go check them out. Um, thechurchco.com. Let me double check that. Yeah, thechurchco.com. And um you can actually use my name, SATS S A T S, get uh a discount as well. So I just want to, but I I wouldn't back anything that I didn't think was actually good. Hopefully you guys know that by now. So just go check them out. Uh if you are if you don't have a great website, it's it's a very easy win um in 2026, very affordable too. Um so bless you guys. Thanks so much for listening today. I hope you found it very helpful. Let me know your thoughts. Come follow on Instagram at SatSolanky. And um, can I just ask you really quickly if you would consider subscribing and um leaving me a rating as well on the podcast? That'll be kind of helpful because you know, people do look if you've got like one rating, the thing in who is this guy? I think this content's pretty ace. So if you agree, maybe you could jump on there, smash the five stars, and just write a few words. What did you love about this episode? Just tell me something. Does something help you? Did it help shift something? I don't care if you agree with everything. I just think putting my ideas into the body of Christ is what I'm trying to do, and it's gonna help someone. So bless you guys. Thanks for listening today. We will see you in the next episode.