Senior Pastors and Apostles

Language is hugely nuanced depending on the culture and context but I think it's fair to say that if we read the Bible for the first time, we would never use the term Senior Pastor to describe a church leader. Mainly because the term is only used to describe Jesus.

In this episode we talk about how the gift of apostle gets muddled up with the modern senior pastor and why that ends up being a bad thing for the church (and the leader in question). Strangely enough, even in hierarchical spaces that acknowledge apostles, there is little teaching on the topic. I believe dismantling some of the super-spiritual nature of the term will help us greatly.

PS. I have lots of good friends who are senior pastors who are doing great stuff. Function matters more than language at the end of the day (but it's not such a terrible thing to get both right either!)

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If you're still reading, my name is Sats Solanki aka Digital Rabbi. I lead Reflect Church in London, UK. If you'd like to connect then head over to Insta @satsolanki or head to https://digitalrabbi.co. To find out more about Reflect Church head to https://reflect.church

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:07

Well, hello, and welcome to the Leadership Horticulture Podcast. My name is Sats Salanki, otherwise known as the Digital Rabbi. I'm going to be your host for today. So thanks for stopping by. Thanks for saying hello. And I hope you're doing very well wherever you are. Just to give you a bit of a recap as to what we're doing here, we're talking about theology and uh really in particular around church leadership culture, um, structure of church, and um how should we design these things? And you know, I want to just straight out just say there's so many ways to do things, and I think the Bible is not always prescriptive about everything, you know? Um, it doesn't 100% spell out all of these things, but what we can do is we can look to the original context, the original historical context of how was the church structured. And I find when we get to this conversation, particularly in the Pentecostal side of things, which is where I am, um, often what we do is we kind of look at um the way we do things already, and then we sort of retrofit it back on the scripture and say, hey, this is how they did things. And uh that for me is um a really unhelpful starting point because whilst I'm open to saying we don't have to do things like the early church did them, right? We're in 2026, I'm in London, uh in the UK, leading a church, you might be somewhere else, a city, a rural area, but but the world has changed, right? The context has changed. So we don't have to do everything exactly as they did it. But I think having a correct understanding of the early church is gonna mean that whatever we build and extrapolate from there um will still will have a good foundation, right? Um, and so today I do want to talk to you about um uh an important topic. Um, I want to talk to you about senior pastors and maybe some of the language we use around titles. Um, and also I want to talk to you about apostles and uh the gift of apostleship. And uh those topics are they do overlap a little bit, and I and I think one of the reasons that um I think some of the church structure around leadership goes wrong is because we haven't really acknowledged um the the this pioneering gift that we'll talk about in a moment, uh, which is apostolic. And because we don't really talk about it and it's kind of an awkward topic because it it sounds like this sort of super hierarchy, it's a title, even in sort of hierarchical systems like so in the Pentecostal space, it's it's like uh we don't we don't really talk about it, we don't really teach on it. It just sometimes gets referenced, oh, that person's an apostle. So you think, oh gosh, I better be on my best behavior, or you know, there's kind of that sense of awe around the word, which I think is actually really unhelpful. So I want to dismantle some of that uh and just get back to to function. Um but just before we dive into today's um episode, um, we're actually sponsored um right now by the Church Co. Who is a uh just a fantastic company run by a friend of mine called Paul, who's a bit of a legend, and uh just building great websites um for churches. So just a quick shout out um to them because um I know there's a bunch of um you know creatives listening, there'll be a bunch of church leaders listening, and let's just be honest right now, the best website is the one that you actually update because it doesn't matter how beautiful your website is, if it's not easy to edit and get in there and create new pages and adapt to, you know, as church life evolves, um it's really pretty useless, right? So one of the features of the churchco is that um the interactivity and the ease of editing is just um really amazing. You're gonna get a beautiful website as well. So we'd love to recommend them to you. You can go check them out um at uh thechurchco.com and you can also get a discount code. How nice is that? I know I feel like a proper influencer now. So it's my name, SATS S A T S. I think you'll get a 10% um discount. So uh go check them out. It's thechurchco.com. Um, so but now back to uh the topic in hand. Let's let's talk about the the phrase senior pastor. Now I I think it's interesting, right? Because um, you know, if you're in like uh a really more traditional church, like let's say you're in, you know, an Anglican church or a Catholic church, you know, there's certain language that has been maturing for like, you know, a really long time, you know, hundreds and thousands of years, right? So it's it's like um you know, you're not too quick to change tradition because tradition is a really important part of what you do, right? And we all have tradition and it's all cool, like it's it's not a bad thing. But the point is that you're not in a sort of environment where you can make super quick decisions about these sort of things, um, you know, because uh they're they're really quite set in stone. And whilst there is some flexibility and freedom in local context, um, there's a history that you want to really sort of honor. And I think what's very interesting in the more you know evangelical, Pentecostal side of the body of Christ is that really as an expression and as a way of doing things, it's a lot more recent, right? And so that's not to say that you know the qualities of these churches aren't historic. They are, you know, the Holy Spirit, for example. Well, you know, we've got Acts chapter two. Uh, and uh, you know, I saw someone on social media make a joke, you know, hey, well, Mary was there, mother of Jesus. She's been filled with the spirit and speaking in tongues. She was a Pentecostal. So there's kind of all sorts of fun stuff around this. But I think what's interesting is, you know, if we're in like this new wine skin, you know, of this fresh expression of church, it it should be that we can make decisions quite quickly and we can change things without being too precious about them, right? And so uh as I shared in last week's episode where we talked about titles, uh, for me, language is not like it's not like a you know a make or break. It's not the end of the world if someone uses the wrong language, right? It's just like, well, you know, it it is cool, you know. Like I think there's a lot of grace, there's a lot of nuance. There's so much cultural context to language, isn't there? Like different things mean different uh things to different people uh across cultures, even across, you know, the English-speaking world, you know, as a Brit, certain things that I would say um to an American they would be very surprised by uh because the words are just different, they have different meanings. And um, there's lots of funny examples that I've come across over the years in in hanging out with American friends, and and uh same in Australia as well, and so uh different parts of the world. So there's there's all sorts of cultural nuance when it comes to language, and so that's why I think um, you know, I don't want to be this super, you know, really, oh, it needs to be exactly like this. Having said that, when we are in an environment that prides itself in being in a new wineskin, that we think, yeah, we're we're you know, we're we're we're fresh, we're doing what God is asking us to do, and we're not religious, right? That's often a big selling point. Um, kind of falsely we say, hey, this is not a religion, it's a relationship, and we know what people mean, but but really it is a religion, like Christianity is a religion, right? Uh what we're trying to say is it's not legalistic, it's not oppressive, but there are things you should do, there are principles, you know, it's not it's not totally devoid of religious behavior. So sometimes people are a bit confused by that statement. But anyway, that's a side point. Um, but but we kind of pride ourselves, right, and not being legalistic, not being tied down too much to tradition. Hey, we're free moving. And so it's with that, guys, and that context that I want to talk to you about the phrase senior pastor, because it's not the end of the world if someone uses a senior pastor. But can I just say I biblically, theologically, really dislike the term, and I want to tell you why. I don't dislike you, just to be clear, if you're leading a church, this is not an attack on what you are doing. I think you're doing a great job, hopefully. And I'm cheering you on, and many of my friends are senior pastors, right? So um, this is not that. Um, people would probably describe what I'm doing as being a senior pastor. I would push back on the language because um various reasons we can go into. So I don't describe myself as that. Um, but uh the what I'm trying to say is I I I'm I'm coming at this just purely from a theological perspective, not from a uh, you know, what it looks like in the operations, because of course, titles and language just reflect function of what we do. So that's a separate conversation. But I want to just I want to read you um just what it says in 1 Peter chapter 5, verse 1. It says Peter says these words So I exhort the elders among you as a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, as well as a partaker in the glory that is going to be revealed. Shepherd the flock that is among you, exercising oversight, not under compulsion, but willingly, as God would have you, not for shameful gain, but eagerly, not domineering over those in your charge, but being examples to the flock. Verse 4, and when the chief shepherd appears, you will receive the unfading crown of glory. And it goes on, you know, likewise you who are younger, be subject to the elders, clothe yourselves, all of you with humility towards one another, for God opposes the proud, gives grace to the humble. So um, just straight out of the bat here, we've got uh instructions around leadership. And I want to be very clear on this podcast, I am not anti-leadership. I think we need leaders, we need great leaders, we need good leaders. I just think what we see in the New Testament is we see a redefining from Jesus and uh the early disciples, redefining what leadership is, and that's really the key point here. And so often people assume if we're coming against words and phrases like senior pastor or dismantling hierarchy in the church that we're against leadership. That is false. We're not. Uh, we're trying to redefine what leadership looks like, and this is actually a great scripture to do it from because Peter explains hey, the role of a leader is to shepherd and not to domineer, um, not to misuse authority, uh, but you know, to serve and all that kind of good stuff. But I just think what's interesting in verse four is that it talks about the chief shepherd. Now, I I just I just think for a moment, of course, the chief shepherd is referring to Jesus, a Jesus who said, I will build my church. And I've heard it very popularly said where pastors will say, Hey, you know, that's that's my scripture, you know, and I've made it my own, like, I will build the church, you know, because Jesus is building the church. And I'm like, that's great, that's fine. But I think there is just something missing sometimes in our theology where we really do see ourselves sometimes as being the builders of the church, and we don't understand that there is one who is actually building the church, and his name is Jesus, and he is the chief shepherd. If we were to put that as another phrase, you can very clearly see that that senior pastor is basically an exact match for the phrase chief shepherd, pastor, shepherd, chief senior. I I just yeah, I just think like when we use the term senior pastor, if we were just to if we were to start from scratch, you know, we're all unsaved, the Bible drops out of nowhere, Jesus just comes back, it gives us a bit of a pep talk, and then we start following him again. There is no way we would choose the phrase senior pastor. There's just no way we would, because we would see very clearly that the senior pastor is Jesus himself. The chief shepherd is Jesus himself. And why would we take a title that is any way close or confused with that? Now, as I've said, many senior pastors are great people doing great work. Um, but I do also think that there is some underlying theology that comes with the term senior pastor that often kind of just sort of trickles in um without even realizing. And I know it did for me, um, you know, just this way of thinking about leadership that puts too much on us and not enough on Jesus. And and the change that I've noticed since realizing that yes, I can lead, yes, my gifting is, you know, uh required and needed, and God is using it to serve and love people like that. That that hasn't really changed. But I think what has changed is um the position of where I see myself and what changes with that is how how our experience of leading is. And that's actually really where I want to speak to pastors right now is there is so much pressure on pastors. One of the reasons people get upset when you start to come at come for Celia pastor titles. They're like, oh, you don't understand how hard we're working. It's like, well, I do, I understand it. I'm I'm just maybe suggesting that maybe one of the reasons it's so hard is because we've over-elevated the position. And I think whenever we do that, we start to carry burdens and pressures that we're not actually designed for. And Jesus himself told us one of my favorite passages in Matthew, when he's he characterizes following him and he talks about, you know, take my yoke upon you. And he talks about all these words like rest, he talks about lightness, he talks about gentleness and ease. And it's like, hang on a minute, when I talk to church leaders, that is not normally the thing they talk about. Uh not many, some of them do, but typically the impression that many people have in their mind that being a leader is very hard. And it's this pressure and there's this burden to carry. And I don't want to say it's not, but I also want to say that the predominant emotion that I feel towards the leadership now is not that. It used to be that, but overwhelming that is lightness and it is ease and it is rest. And I have found that since I've shifted my theology to put Jesus more on the throne, to make sure that I understand that he is the senior pastor, as I've made that shift gradually in my thinking and in my study of scripture, I have found that my way of leading has got lighter. And what's crazy, guys, is that that's what Jesus promises. He says, this is what it will be like to follow me. If we're leading, we have to be following Jesus, like not as well as everybody else, but better than everybody else, right? That's the whole point of leading, right? We're gonna go ahead of people, we're gonna show them where to go, we're gonna be an example, which means the standard is higher. Not the standard of pressure, but the but our experience of lightness should be greater. Our experience of rest should be greater, our experience of ease uh should be, should be greater. So why is it that the predominant story that seems to be told about what it's like to be a pastor is that it's this difficult, heavy thing, and it's so hard, and you know, you it's alone there's it's lonely and you're exhausted. And I look, I don't want to disregard the fact that there are aspects of what you're doing that there is a cost to following Jesus, but that there's a cost for everyone, first of all. But I I don't think um a predominant story should be that. I think a predominant story should be the lightness and the goodness of God. And so, you know, uh we're seeing a very interesting um, you know, it's just a very interesting time where we're seeing, I know particularly in America, but across the world right now, in the Western world, there's um um, you know, an aging pastoral population. Uh leaders are aging and they're reaching the point of retirement and they can't find people to replace them, right? There aren't enough leaders coming through. And so, you know, parishes are merging, you know, uh people are trying to figure out things, and uh, and also people can't retire because they're like, Well, uh, who do I give this church to? But one, I think it says something really interesting um about the limits of having a single leader. Transition is much easier when you have a group leading the church. Uh, because one person retires, well, you add another person to the group, it's all fine, it keeps going on. So, this whole conversation around succession is uh, you know, I I think I think we can solve it structurally much earlier if we if we structure the church correctly. Uh, but that's a separate conversation, maybe. Um, but we're seeing this, we're seeing this aging population of leaders and the next generation looking to pass the baton on. But guess what? The next generation is not that interested. Why? Because we've described it as being exhausting and we've modeled something that people say, I don't really want to live like that. Uh, we've seen uh the cost to family life, and and the next generation is like, you know what, like I don't know if it's worth it. And guess what, guys? They're right. They're right, it's not worth it. It's not worth it to sacrifice your family on the altar of ministry, right? It's just not worth it. So why are we gonna sign up for this? But but friends, what if there was another way? What if there was another way that it was not as intense? What if there was a way to lead that that didn't exact such a price uh from the leader? Well, I believe the biblical model is like that, but it starts by coming at concepts like senior pastor, because senior pastor implies in itself that you are the one building the church, you are the one leading the church, and it has been so helpful to me, friends, to realize as as great as I am and as talented as I am, I'm very talented, guys. I'm I'm a great communicator, I'm a very driven person, I'm a very creative person, I'm anointed by God, I'm very prophetic. Like I've got all sorts of leadership gifts, but realizing this is not me. I am not the one building the church. Jesus has promised to build the church. And if if if I understand that it's going to shift what I see my role as a leader is, my role is not to be a senior pastor where I oversee everything and I make sure uh the anointing flows down and I make sure everything's in order. My role is actually to spend time with Jesus, to pay attention to what he's doing, and then work with him. Right? So, and and what I find fascinating is this is what you see in the in the scriptures, and we've talked about them in other episodes when we look at Acts chapter one, how they make decisions around appointing, you know, someone to replace Judas, and in Acts chapter 15, where they're making big decisions around um, you know, should the Gentiles have to adopt Jewish customs fully? Um, you you see this like space for the Holy Spirit where nobody is carrying the final decision, but they are truly being led by Jesus. Jesus is leading the church, and uh we're all just paying attention, like, oh, what are you doing? Okay, let's we're gonna work with you. And in that, there can be space for initiating and all sorts of things. Um, but it's like it's just fascinating to me that we've gone so far to the other side where leaders carry this pressure, and I and I think it's really unhelpful. So I would just I would just say, look, if you just look at plain text of the scripture, it's very strange that we have senior pastors. I think it's a very strange thing. And if we're in a space where we're free to adopt a different title, I mean sometimes people go for lead pastor, I think that's a bit better. Um but um again, of course, it all comes back to function. What function are we bringing in here around how we see what a pastor or a leader does? So let's let's just pivot for a moment and talk about apostles. The word apostle is such a loaded term, uh, just like the word pastor is a loaded term, but maybe the word apostle even more so. Of course, we've got the original 12 apostles, um, you know, that they obviously had a very important function, but uh just something quite important to point out is that even within the scripture, we see that there are more than the 12 apostles. So I can't remember the exact amount, but I'm gonna say 17, 18 people-ish are named as an apostle in the New Testament. So we don't even have to go to modern life to show that scripturally um apostles exist and it's a gift that continues. Um, and so Paul, people people make this huge exception for Paul. Paul's like, Yeah, you know, I've seen the risen Christ, and they're like, Oh, yeah, yeah, he's like the 13th apostle. It's like, well, yeah, like he saw, did he see him? Like, he sort of saw him, guys. Come on, let's just be honest for a moment. He saw him in like a vision. People still have visions today. So there's nothing to stop us from having apostles today. Um, I think what we're pushing back on is how the term has been used to control people and create hierarchy. That's the correct pushback that I would also agree on. Um, but we shouldn't get rid of the term itself. So, of course, the word apostle, as you probably know, means you know, sent, someone who's sent directly from Christ to do something. And so we kind of get this idea of what we see in the scripture of pioneering, of starting things. And so the pattern that I've seen a lot in the scripture is um teams of apostles or apostolic teams start churches. And this is true for Paul, by the way. Paul doesn't do everything on his own, he works with a team. Um, if you read, many of the letters are addressed not only from Paul, but from Paul plus, you know, Silas. Or, you know, we see Paul and Barnabas hanging out, and we see, of course, Timothy and Titus. And one of our confusions is that we've often sort of gone, those guys are senior pastors serving under Paul's apostolic ministry. And that I think really uh brings hierarchy into the picture that isn't there for starters. And I I can prove it to you because people like Timothy and Titus, Timothy was in Ephesus, Titus was in um Crete, and so um we've got these famous passages um, you know, uh to Titus where where Paul says, Hey, you know, stay in Crete and appoint elders in each city. And as we've talked about in other um podcast episodes, the Greek language makes it very clear that this is multiple elders in each city. So it's it's a team of elders in each city, and so people go, yeah, that's fine, but you know, he's the senior pastor and he was appointing elders, and that's how it should sit. You've got apostles, then you've got pastors, then you've got elders or bishops, or you know, whatever language we're going to use for it, but essentially we've got some form of hierarchy. But what people uh often miss is the length of time that Titus and Timothy stay in those respective locations. So, for example, if if if Titus was a senior pastor, I would expect him to maybe have gone, be sent and maybe, you know, 15 years, 20 years, 30 years to stay and lovingly build that community. That's what we should expect from a senior pastor model, right? Because that's generally speaking what senior pastors do. Stay for a long time and build people up. Great. But um, what we actually find is Titus stayed there for probably a couple of years, max. And the same is true for Timothy. Timothy didn't stay in Ephesus for decades, he stayed for maybe a couple of years. And so straight away we have a huge hole in the argument that these guys are senior pastors, and that's because they're not. They're not senior pastors. What are they? They're either apostles in their own right, born possibility, or they're simply part of Paul's apostolic team. What does that mean? Now remember that um uh the Bible, the biblical emphasis is never on titles, it's always on function. So phrases like the office of elder um is not in the scripture, the office of is added in later. Uh you know, New King James or Whatever, and it's just sort of retained there culturally, it's there. But there is no office, there is no formal office that is instituted in the New Testament. Instead, what you have are functions. So when we describe someone as an apostle or we describe describe someone as a pastor, what we're really doing is recognizing the function that they already have. We're recognizing the gift that they already have, which is why someone can be a pastor if we even if nobody recognizes them to be a pastor. I mean, it helps, right? But if being a pastor is loving people and building them up and caring for them and having them in your home and teaching them, right? Right? There's no rules about who can do that. You can do that without a formal position. You can do that with a formal position. And this is where, if we come to women in leadership, this is where it just becomes really clear. Well, anybody can do that, even if they're not recognized. And that's exactly what you see in the scriptures. You see women performing these functions, which means by definition, we could call them pastors, or we could call them apostles, or we could call them whatever, because it's all about function. So helping the to understand that that um that apostolic gifting is not about an office, it's not about a position, it is about a function. And the function is about starting things. So we could quite fairly call anybody who starts anything apostolic, church planters, apostolic. Um, because what we've done is we've removed some of the high profile power that often comes with that that word, where we only call people who've started, you know, like a million churches an apostle or oversee or accomplish something kind of kind of big in terms of statistical terms. We call them apostles. But the reality is, is anybody with that gifting is an apostle, um, or is it at the very least apostolic. And and that's why uh the titles thing is just so silly because who cares? Who cares what people call you? Who cares whether you're recognized or uh what we care about is what has God called us to do? What does God call me to do? I'm I'm just gonna go and do it. I don't need somebody to tell me that I'm prophetic. I know that I'm prophetic, because the topics that I'm talking about are prophetic in nature, where I'm, you know, uh bringing the church back to righteousness and challenging unhealthy structures. That's a prophetic in nature sort of thing. That's this podcast is prophetic. Why? Not because you've recognized me as a prophet or whatever, but just because the very nature of how I'm talking is prophetic. Uh game recognizes game. Like you just you just know, right? So so all of this to say that once we get rid of um the titles and we come back to the functions, we start to see um teams of apostles, apostolic teams, start churches and then they hand the church over to a pastoral team, a team of elders. This is the pattern you can see the whole way through the New Testament. And I think this is the ideal scenario. Now, why is this relevant to the conversation about senior pastors? It's because some senior pastors, not all senior pastors, but particularly the ones who started the church, you know, maybe they moved country or they, you know, they moved city and they go, we're gonna start a church, God's called us, and that that that that mode, um, that gifting, it it's apostolic in nature. And so um there's an apostle starting a church, but of course, in the Bible, what happened is that the apostle's supposed to hand it over the church. The apostolic team is supposed to appoint elders because the church has to mature and not stay in pioneering mode, not stay in this, you know, uh the vision hyper-visionary mode, but go into actually building people up. And you see, when churches make that transition well, this is where you can see the language is confusing because some senior pastors really are pastorally gifted, and other other senior pastors are very apostolic um, you know, in nature. But the best case scenario is always when the apostolic releases the pastoral and then the church just starts to thrive. And uh, and we see this in in modern church history, and in and conversely, whenever someone who has apostolic gifting overstays, right? Because you have the very real scenario of well, I've spent all this energy starting this church, and uh, well, now it's time to move on. I got a whole team, but also I need a job, and also my identity is tied here because you know this means a lot to me, and I I like how people see me. I'm I'm like the father of this church and the mother of this church, so it's a very difficult psychological thing. And but of course, when you overstay, what do you do? It's like the relationship between a parent and a child. And Psalm 127 talks about how children are like arrows in the hand of the archer and this this idea of um you know pulling the arrow back in the early years. You're in control of everything in the child's life. You don't want them to run into the road, you don't want them to have a smartphone, you don't want them to hang out with this person over there because they may not be safe, or like you're controlling everything. What time is the bedtime? You're you're controlling, but as time goes on, you begin to let go and you release, and the arrow flies forward to its target. And I'm not yet at the stage, I've got four kids. Uh we're not yet at that stage. Uh, eldest is about to turn 12, so we're kind of approaching it, right? We're kind of entering into the stage of releasing, which is a test for us. Uh, will we stay as domineering parents? You know, as Peter criticizes, you know, or challenges say, hey, don't be domineering, don't overly control, but but release, release, right? Whenever a child doesn't feel released, they do one of two things. Either they just submit and they get on board, but with resentment, and that bruise until eventually it comes to the surface. They may not know that they resent it, but it's there, it's like deeply subconscious because a child is supposed to become their own person, and uh it's the same in church life as well. Um, you know, when we keep people too close, they're supposed to become their own people, we're not supposed to control them, and so eventually that relationship will become unhealthy in some way. Um, they either submit or they break free and they rebel. And we we know that one as well. I did that as a teenager. I just broke, I need to be free, I don't want to, I don't want to be coddled, I don't want to be pr protected. I I need to go out and be my own person. It's like a human need um to be yourself, right? And so what we see is we see that when apostles, or those with the gifting, uh the apostolic gifting, um, stay for too long, they begin to try and bring everything under themselves. And instead of being a father that releases, they actually end up being uh an unhealthy parent who starts to control and domineer. And I believe the word senior pastor, again, not all senior pastors, but the word senior pastor communicates that. It actually ties into the idea of overstaying because it implies this is my church, and I'm gonna stay here, and I'm the man of God, and I'm the woman of God, and and God has called me here. And it's like, yeah, like, but but the thing is that it may work for a while and it may work for you, but in terms of the culture that you create for the next generation, in terms of the fruit of what you create within the church, you're actually not gonna be able to create um the fullness of what God has intended. And so that's why the best senior pastors I know, regardless of what title they use, they have actually created that. They create a pastoral team, they create true releasing, true empowering, and they don't dominate. And I've got friends who who have done that, I think it's fantastic. Uh, I'd still recommend them to change the title name, but that's neither here nor there, really, because the function is taking place within the church. You see, the function of pastoring has taken place. And so um, I just say all that just to say I think this can help us by actually getting a healthier view of apostleship. We're actually going to get a better view of what it means to pastor. So there's so much we can go into there, but what you can see in all of these examples is there is no hierarchy. Parents are not hierarchically above their children, they are temporarily given uh custodianship, right? You they they are called to steward the early years of a child temporarily, but eventually they must release the child and the child actually becomes the equal of the parent. Now there's always going to be something where a kid is always gonna see their parents as, you know, with respect and honor if they've done it correctly, right? Which is why the Bible says honor your parents. It's because it's the natural thing. But that honor doesn't mean control. You know, when my children grow up, I I can tell, I'm sure we'll be able to speak our minds to one another. So I think that's a bit stupid, you shouldn't do that. But I would never be able to stop them because that's not how we're supposed to be. They're supposed to be able to make their own mistakes, and that's part of growing up, and that's part of learning, and that's part of maturing. And we need that process to happen, even if it happens um imperfectly. So, anyway, I hope that's helpful. Um, thanks for tuning in today uh to the podcast. And I would love to ask you to consider would you share this with a friend? Maybe if you're in a church, share it with your pastor, um, share it with your team, and uh most importantly, have some great conversations. Uh, it could be that I'm not right about everything. I'm very open to that possibility, but I think one thing I've learned is that it's so good to talk about things and in particular talk about the things that we're not really allowed to. And so senior, the word senior pastor is a bit of like a sacred cow for Pentecostals. You come at senior pastors, they they're like people are upset. I I've seen it online. People get very upset, they think you're a hater, you're divisive. It's like, well, I'm just questioning how we've interpreted the scripture. Are we allowed to do that? Or is that is that you know, are we allowed to debate things now or we're afraid? You know, what uh one of the things I love about God is that God invites our questions and God invites our wrestle and he invites robust conversations. And so I think that's a sign of a really good culture. And I always tell our church, I say, Hey, um, you know, you don't have to agree with everything. I say, but bring the scripture, you know, let's talk about it. Um, test everything that you hear, because we may not get it right, but one thing you want to be able to develop is not just the ability to be to be taught, but to think for yourself. That's really the mark of true discipleship, is when people can think. And uh, if I can accomplish that through this podcast for you, just to help you think in a different way, that's amazing. Um, so thank you so much for um uh listening. And I would just ask you finally as well, just if you could leave me a rating or a review, that would be very helpful. Is this helping you? Tell me how it's helping you, answer a specific question, that'd be awesome. God bless you guys, and we'll see you in the next episode.