Women in leadership

Few topics seem to attract as much controversy as whether women are allowed to lead, teach or pastor. In today's episode, I share some theology around women in leadership with a unique lens. If leadership is primarily about function and gift as opposed to position, then this conversation becomes a very different one.

The concept of an office of elder/pastor is a popular one but if we look at the original Greek, it doesn't actually exist. I hope you find this helpful and challenging!

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If you're still reading, my name is Sats Solanki aka Digital Rabbi. I lead Reflect Church in London, UK. If you'd like to connect then head over to Insta @satsolanki or head to https://digitalrabbi.co. To find out more about Reflect Church head to https://reflect.church

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:07

Hey everyone, welcome back to the Leadership Horticulture Podcast. My name is Sats Slanke, otherwise known as the Digital Rabbi. Um, how are you doing? Are you well? I hope you're doing well. And uh thanks for tuning in. Appreciate all your ratings and reviews. If you've not had a chance to leave one yet, please um do. But just to let you know what we're doing in this podcast before we dive into uh the specific topic for today is we're talking about leadership, uh church leadership, church culture, and theology around it. And um really, you know, about six years ago, um the church that I've been a part of my entire adult life uh imploded for a variety of not great reasons. It was a multi-site church, quite a large church, um, mostly based in the UK, but um global as well. And um, you know, uh a whole bunch of stuff just came to the surface and uh the church overnight was decimated. So many people left. And uh, you know what's crazy is it it wasn't just like a one thing. You know, I think sometimes they're like, oh, you know, forgive and move up move on, you know. Um it was the culture that the senior pastors had created that really flowed from um just you know stuff that was missing in them. And uh, and again, it it's hard to know sometimes as you're diagnosing what really happened, but I think as I look back, one of the things I can see is it was a very intense culture, it was a very black and white culture, and um, and that culture ultimately was very unhealth unhealthy. And uh, although there was a lot of good stuff happening and a lot of great relationships and friendships formed, and a lot of work that God did in me, um, just a lot of really unhealthy things that were not producing um the fruit of the spirit. Uh, that's the measure, isn't it? Jesus says you will know them by their fruits. And he says, People are gonna do all sorts of things in my name, they're gonna preach, they're gonna prophesy, they're gonna cast out demons, but at the end he's gonna say, I don't know you. And that really is my conclusion about uh the culture that was built there, is is is like, hey, we can all be building things, uh, but we can build them for ourselves. Um, it can have Jesus on the cover, um, it can actually help people in very genuine ways. But if we're doing it in a way that doesn't really produce the fruit of the spirit, um, and uh also doesn't come from that place as well. Um, we we can create something that can look pretty good on the outside, but on the inside, as Jesus also says, hey, you need to clean the inside of the cup, don't just clean the outside of the cup. And so I guess this podcast has come off the back of that because over the last six years we planted it out again. Uh, we lead a church called Reflect Church in London in the UK. And I just had to rebuild theology because nobody was really talking about what happened. And what I mean by that, that there was a sort of general um, you know, we're gonna go on a healing journey and you know, all this kind of stuff. But it seemed to me that we were very quick to move on. And when I say we, I just mean wider in the culture, in the church network, um, through relationships with other people who've been sort of voices in the community over the years. Just it kind of just felt like everyone was like, oh yeah, that was a bit difficult. Gosh, let's just get back to doing what we were doing. And I don't know about you guys, but I was just like, Well, I can't just go back to what I was doing. I can't just go back to how I was doing things because I I've seen the fruit and I don't want to end up back in that place. I'm terrified of ending back in that place. So it just sent me to God and it just sent me to um, I think a place of unknowing, a place of uncertainty, a place of um real desperation, actually. God, like, will you show me like how do how do we do this thing called church? I still very much felt this calling to lead and um you know the Holy Spirit leading us into this next season. But I was just like, God, I do not want to do it like we just did it. Because, you know, here we have a couple who've spent like 30 years building something significant, and then in one moment their reputation completely falls. And uh all of the horror of that, I I've I saw how difficult it was for them, and that's what's so interesting. You know, with this, I really feel sorry for our old senior pastors. They're still not in a place where there's as far as I can see any sense of repentance or awareness of what's happening as very much being like a cover story of oh, the Lord led us into a new season. But, you know, everybody knows what really happens, you know. And as much as there'll be some people, I'm sure, who are like, that's cool, whatever, you know, yeah, persecution. I think just the average Joe and the average Krishna understands, yeah, there's something fundamentally very wrong. And I'm just I was just terrified of that, of that, of going through the same thing. I was like, God save me from myself. Like, what is going on? But anyway, I'm backtracking a little bit, and um, we've not even got into today's episode. But I hope you're doing well. I'm actually recording this in my cellar. We have some building work at the moment. Um, we moved house at the end of last year, end of 2025, and we've been in a huge building project. And uh it's funny, isn't it? Like to record a podcast, you obviously need like quiet because the microphone's gonna pick up stuff. And I was upstairs, you know, in my office, just the noise just going crazy. And I was like, okay, I gotta escape somewhere. So I've created a portable setup and come down here. So apologies for anyone who listens regularly. Uh you've probably we've probably missed a week or two because of that. Um, hey, just shout out quickly to um the Church Co. who sponsor this podcast. I know it's cool, right? It's cool to have sponsors, guys. So I wouldn't um be sponsored by anyone who I didn't think was actually good. Um let me just say that the Church Co. is led by a friend of mine called Paul, who's a bit of a legend, he's a proper developer, started this um company just resourcing churches with great websites. And I think you know, I've done a fair bit of website building um over the years. Uh, you know, I'm pretty in interested in that side of things. Um, and um I have to say what I really like about the Church Co. is, you know, some of the things you never really think about for websites, um, they're doing. Uh uh, and these are the things that actually matter. So, for example, you know, when was the last time you thought about how quickly your website loads? Right? Because it might look beautiful, but how long does it take to load? Because the way that it's built and the way that things are you know done is gonna determine whether it loads like in 10 seconds time, five seconds time, or you know, under a second or under half a second. And that uh time is not only something that is gonna make a difference to how you show up um on Google, because Google will prioritize and um you know AI again will prioritize um stuff that loads quickly, but also the actual experience. People might be clicking away from your website because they just can't be bothered to wait because that's the world we live in. So um, anyway, lots of things like that um are really important and we don't tend to think about them. So if you have somebody who's like just put together your website on your team, or you know, you've gone for like a local freelancer, or you're like, I'm sure it's great, but um I would cons recommend you checking out these guys because a lot of those really core things that are gonna future-proof you and uh really make sure your website serves the purpose. Um uh they're gonna be covered. So highly recommend the churchco go check them out, uh, thechurchco.com. And uh I believe you can actually use a discount code. I know I feel like a proper influencer, guys. Uh you can use my name, which is SATS S A T S, and that will give you um, I believe a 10% discount or possibly more, not sure. Go check it out. See, see what you can get. Um, but I would love to recommend them to you. And if you um know of others as well, then please please share. I think well, let's get behind great businesses. You know, there's a lot of bad businesses out there, there's also a lot of bad Christian businesses, uh, just you know, uh either shoddily done, or you know, you you you know what I'm talking about. So um today I want to cover a big topic, and when I say cover, I I kind of realize I'm not gonna be able to cover it in entirety. So it could be we do more podcast episodes on this particular topic. Um, I want to talk to you about women in leadership. Um, yeah, kind of a big one. Everyone's got a lot of opinions. It always gets spicy whenever you post on this topic um online. Uh just people just love arguing. Christians just love arguing. So I want to kind of just tackle it from a bit of a different perspective. Um, because you know, there's lots of problematic or difficult scriptures uh to interpret around this topic that are highly debated. So I'm not gonna try and go through all of them because uh one, I think people have done this already. Um there's a book called Why Not Women, which I would recommend you reading. No matter where you fall theologically on this, um, I think it's always good to read alternative perspectives as well. It it sort of uh forces you to question like, why do I believe what I believe, right? So that's good. So I I'm really into that in general. So go check that out. Why not women? Um, that's a great book. Um, I'm sure there's other ones as well, which maybe you guys are familiar with. But um I I want to come at this conversation from uh a couple of lenses. Probably the first one is common sense, that's an important lens, by the way, when reading the scripture. And the second one would be just through the lens of a lot of the theology I've been sharing in this uh podcast, um, because it actually radically affects this conversation, and I hadn't really seen anyone talking about it through that lens. So that's obviously why I'm doing this podcast. I I haven't heard a lot of people talking about it through this lens with my experience. I I see a lot of people talking who maybe have been burnt by the church, you know, the kind of typical and they sort of escaped and now they're not involved anymore or they've gone to a different format. I think what's really funny for me is, you know, if you were to come to a reflect church in London, it would largely look like most on the surface, um, you know, most sort of Pentecostal, evangelical, you know, non-denominational sort of churches, the format, the style, the, you know, all these kind of things, you would largely look the same. But I would say fundamentally the heart of it is very different from what we were building before. And so the fruit is different, even though the mechanisms look very similar. And so I think that's really interesting. And I think it's one of the things that gives me quite a good vantage point is I'm still here. I still love Jesus, I still have people, I'm still leading. And I think over the last six years I've been able to test out these ideas um in a real life scenario, right? So this is not just theoretical, this is stuff I'm testing, and I'm going, yeah, I see the fruit is working, or no, the fruit isn't working. And so that's a great measure of truth, right? Is actual lived experience, right? Because who cares if it's theoretically true if it's not actually true? And I think often with the Bible, what we do is we go theoretical, oh well, the Bible says this. And it's just like, yeah, but why? First of all, like there can't just be it because God says so. That's just such a terrible explanation. I think that's a really poor. You don't have a teaching gift if that's how you think. Oh, the Bible says so. It's like as if that solves everything. It's like, yeah, but why does it say that? You know, why like I need to understand the why? Because if you don't understand the why, otherwise we're just in pure obedience. We're just living our lives. Like, I'm just gonna obey everything, but not think. And I think that's a fundamental misunderstanding of what God is trying to do. He's trying to help us have agency, trying to help us actually have self-control, fruit of the spirit, right there. And um, he's not trying to create conformity where everyone just does the same thing, but we are free will creatures, right? That's how God created us to think independently and to be able to challenge things, and I think that's really good. Whatever you can't challenge is probably something we should challenge, and that's uh again what this podcast is attempting to do. So let's come to the topic. Um I I I want to just acknowledge something just for a moment because this was a topic that I didn't really have any uh real theology on. I was in an environment where I saw women leading, women teaching, uh, women pastors, and so I would say on the surface it looked very sort of empowering. Um, but I realize now looking back, there were also like a bunch of kind of almost assumptions or unwritten rules. Um I remember suggesting uh a lady who was on our team to be involved in heading up a church plan, and the senior pastor was like, Oh yeah, but she can't do that, she's a single woman. So things like that were never like spelled out in the culture or the vision or the values, but there was always always like a sort of marital thing. So basically, if you're married, then you can do stuff with your husband. That was essentially the sort of takeaway, and so I realized even though on the surface it looked very sort of releasing to women, there was still like kind of you know a theological bias, let's say, which classified what women can do and couldn't do. And again, we we can debate this in a moment because I'm gonna go there. But I guess what I'm trying to say is as I came out of that in church environment and we planted, I was like, okay, I need to look at this because I've never actually thought about this. And for all of the guys listening, let's just be let's just be honest for a moment, right? I've never had to think as a man, am I allowed to do what I'm doing? Right? I've never had that that thought has never crossed my mind. I've never considered I'm not allowed to do this. And as a man, I imagine most men, that's the similar experience. I've never thought, am I allowed to preach? Am I allowed to pastor? Am I allowed to lead? Am I allowed to have authority, etc., etc., etc. I've literally never thought that. And yet I imagine for many women, they have thought that. Why? Because even if they're in a church that is actually sort of releasing in that sense, um, you know, you get people in the congregation, like, and I've heard so many stories, even from people I know, like directly, where someone will preach, like a woman, and then the first thing they get is like, oh, but you're not allowed to preach. Like, you know, someone will come up to them and tell them, Oh, but have you not read da-da-da-da-da? So, regardless of our theological positions here, like I just want to acknowledge that as a man, this is not in my consciousness as being particularly important by default. What I mean is I'm I'm not aware of it as an issue. I'm totally blind to this being even a conversation because I've never had to think about it. Right. So I think acknowledging that is quite important because I think you know, when you when when you've grown up in you know, this particular period of time in the Western world, it's easy to forget how backwards things will were. And I mean, like, you know, uh, women, bank accounts, legal uh stuff, education, and obviously there's some parts of the world today where you know those things are restricted. Um, we've seen, you know, the Taliban coming back in Afghanistan and they're just like shutting down education. Uh, women are not allowed to, I could be making this up, but I don't, I'm not sure they're even allowed to talk outside and they're not allowed to go out with male without male guardians, etc. etc. But anyway, you you get the idea. Like, actually, a lot of these sort of hangovers from the past, like, it's actually very recent, and there are people who who are alive today who have experienced legit discrimination uh based on the fact of being female, right? So I don't think we should be too quick to just be like, oh guys, why are you being so sensitive? Like if you take the opposite position, yeah. It's so recent, it's so fresh that I think we do need to be a little bit sensitive around this topic. And so my first thought to anyone just says the Bible says this, is like, where's the sensitivity in the conversation? Uh, where's like just the acknowledgement of like, yeah, but actually the church has done a pretty bad job. Do you know what I mean? Like, I think it's the same with um, you know, all the conversation around LGBTQ stuff, right? Like, just to be clear, you know, I believe that marriage is between a man and a woman. I can give you theology for it. I think this is a core theological um, you know, thing because marriage points to um the interaction between Christ and the church. So we can do a whole episode on that another time, but that's what I believe, right? That's what I believe the Bible says. But I think at the same time, we can also acknowledge that the way that the church has treated um gay people, um when we look at the history in terms of things like castration, um, you know, forced sort of just hor horrific sort of stuff around, you know, torture and it's just it's it's absolutely appalling, right? So I think when we're too quick to move into the conversation without acknowledging that uh people have been treated really badly, that just seems like very unchrist-like. So my encouragement for us all, even as we head there, is um, I think we can all be more sensitive and aware of the past. And I think that's something that um I've been learning more and more about. It's not just about what's right and wrong, what's truth, what's black and white. It's like, yeah, how do you share the truth in love and it's being sensitive to um, you know, how other people have talked about this. Um, and so to really love um people. So anyway, uh, this is all uh building up to the actual topic. Uh, but I think the topic requires some care. So um women in leadership, I think there's that there's there's like something really interesting that I've noticed, and I had a few Instagram messages about it. Um, you know, as I've been talking about um plurality of leadership, so that's been a big theme of this podcast. That the early church was led by a team. Uh we see 12 apostles left behind. Um, you know, you've got concepts like the Pope that are brought in later, they're sort of back added, if you like, retrofitted is the words, a few hundred years after. We've got concepts like bishops that are actually added in the tradition. I know what you're thinking. Hey, the but the scripture mentions bishops. But if you actually look at it, there are three words that describe um leaders, or there's probably a few more to be fair. You've got uh pastors, these are the I I won't give you the Greek words, but if you look them up, they are in different words. We've got pastors, uh, mainly because I can't pronounce the Greek. I can I can research and share it with you, but on a podcast, I don't want to be uh shamed by pre-play actually no Greek. So um you've got pastors, you've got elders, and you've got overseers. And if you actually look at places like one Timothy, sorry, not one Timothy, one Peter, I think chapter five, and other places, these words are all used interchangeably. I'm gonna find it up for you now so we so you can actually see this in the flesh. First of all, the the the pastors are almost never referred to in the noun form. There's only one reference to a noun of pastor, and that's in Ephesians chapter four, where actually the noun really says the pastor teachers, not the pastors. So anyway, uh that's just an aside. So this is this is what it says. Um here we go. Have I got this right? Yeah. So I exhort the elders among you as a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, as well as a partaker in the glory that's going to be revealed, shepherd the flock of God. So that's the word pastor as a verb that is among you, exercising oversight. Okay, that's the same word used for overseers, not under compulsion, but willingly, as God would have you, um, not for shameful gain, but eagerly. So what do we see there? See this word elder, we see the word pastor, and we see the word oversight or overseer. And that word overseer has been wrongly translated as the word bishop because it's been retrofitted. But in the beginning, and again, there's an argument for tradition, I'm not against tradition, but I'm just saying scripturally in the early church, these are one role. And then over time, what's happened is we go, well, we need to organize this thing, and so uh we've kind of put in bishops and we've put in overseers, you know, like structures. And so there's nothing wrong with creating structures. I don't think that's fundamentally bad. But what I think we should do is be more honest about the origins and say these are not there in the beginning. So what you do with that information is then kind of up to you. Um, but I think by just simply saying things like bishops, and even the way we use the word pastor, is a tradition, not the scripture. That is so fundamentally important to be honest about because I never heard anyone say that. We just talk about traditions like this is the way it is, and it's like, yeah, but it's a tradition, and traditions can be changed, right? Traditions should be tested, and sometimes when we see that a tradition is not creating the right fruit, we should get rid of it completely. So I'm I'm not gonna give you a full breakdown of what I think about that because I honestly don't know, and I think there's many ways to do it, right? But the point is that there's these different words that all refer to leaders um in the church, and so one of the things we're gonna realize um is that this whole concept of a position, um English translations use this word, the office of. And if we go to 1 Timothy, uh I think chapter 2, not chapter 2, chapter 3, um, this is what it says. This this the saying is trustworthy. This is Paul writing, right? If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task. Okay, so what have we got here? Uh we've got this word about overseers in this other translation, you know, other parts of the scripture, sorry, that talks about elders. So as I've already said, these are overlapping terms, right? So I'm gonna treat them as so fr from now on. But uh right here we have this phrase, which I think is very interesting, is the phrase the office of. And we have built entire uh, you know, doctrines, uh theological positions based on the concept of an office. But you know what, friends? The words the os office of I can't even say it, the office is not there in the original translation, it's been added in. Now, again, I don't mind the fact that translators add things in because they are trying to do their best to capture you know what they think the original meaning is. It's not it's not always helpful to have a purely literal meaning because of the way language languages work. And if you have studied any languages, you will you'll you'll know that's true, right? You just because you translate things literally doesn't mean it's the most accurate. So translations, they're doing the best, right? So shout out to the translators out there. And historically, translators, of course, are always gonna bring in um their cultural context because that we're all affected by our cultural context. So if if around us is you know structures and hierarchy and bishops and whatever, Then we're gonna bring that in. And that's exactly what has happened here. Because this addition, the office of, is coming from the traditions of hierarchy and structures that are not originally there in the New Testament. So how this relates to women is really interesting because one of the things I hear people sometimes saying is, well, yeah, women can teach, they can preach, because there's literal examples like in the scripture, right? There's literal examples of the scripture that are happening. So most people, unless you're really, you know, stubborn, will acknowledge, yeah, women can preach, women can teach, they can do things. Um, even though there are scriptures that seemingly say women can't have authority over men. That, you know, so that those are the difficult scriptures which I'm not going to go into. But most people say, but actually, clearly they do those things in the scripture. We've got people like uh Phoebe, I think I believe it is, who is believed to have brought the letter to Rome. And as NT Wright explains quite beautifully, um, the person who brings the letter is is the one who expands on and explains what the letter is. So we've got the first person who's doing exposition of the book of Romans, uh, letter to Rome uh is a woman. So that's kind of cool. That's like 90-95% certain that that's the case historically. So again, we've got like literal examples. So most people are like, yeah, yeah, preaching teaching, that's fine, but oh, but but when it comes to authority, when it comes to chain of command, we're saying, oh, actually, there's there's an issue here, and a woman shouldn't do that. So once we get rid of the word office, it really just changes the conversation, does it not? Because this is the way I see leadership, and this has really been a shift me. I I I've realized that when a person is appointed or recognized as an elder, in one sense, nothing changes. And I can really resonate with this personally. Like I don't need somebody to confirm and affirm to me who I am and what my gift is. Like it's nice, you know, like it's nice to be publicly recognized, it's nice to be recognized within a movement, it's nice for people to acknowledge, oh, this person is gifted in this way. But I would also say that a whole bunch of my gifting is not recognized officially. Uh, yeah, sure, by the people who know me and the people who are in my corner, but not wider in the body of Christ. But but then I don't need it to be, right? I don't need people to go, yeah, Sass is this prophetic voice, da-da-da. Because I know I know who I am. Do you know what I mean? Like I know what I'm called to do, like I know what God has asked me to do, and I don't, for instance, I don't need your permission to show up. And for me, this is how the gospel works. You know, Paul. This is how, you know, Paul has his revelation from Christ, and you know, God interrupts him, and immediately he just starts preaching. He starts sharing the gospel. Like nobody's kind of come alongside him and said, Oh, yeah, this one's good. Now later on, Barnabas takes him and brings him, you know, to the apostles and says, Look at Paul, let's recognize what he's doing. So there's a recognition, which we can think of in terms of ordination or whatever language we use, the laying out of hands to set someone apart. But the reality is, is it's already in them. It's already in them, it's already who they are. And if no one recognizes me as a pastor or as a leader or whatever various functions and giftings I have, it is not going to stop me from doing what I'm called to do. Because you can't stop me. I'm called by God. Which I understand again is a potentially dangerous thing. But lots of people go, Yeah, I'm called by God. So whether someone recognizes us or not, fundamentally this is about function, not about title, which makes sense because Jesus is pretty anti-titles in Matthew chapter 23, because people get obsessed over position and how they're perceived by others. Whereas actually the gospel is about serving and loving others and etc. And so I don't care what you call me. I don't I don't even need to lead a church. I will do what I'm doing in a different context. I will go into the world, like Paul Paul goes to the Gentiles because he gets rejected by by the various Jewish groups. He's like, Well, right, I'm gonna keep doing what I'm doing. You don't recognize my authority, but I'm just gonna keep going because I'm called by God. So this like shift is a really important shift in how we view leadership in general. Um, and so we understand it's not when someone lays hands on you that you suddenly become a leader, that's them recognizing something that has already happened that God has already called you. And so this is so so freeing, guys. It's so freeing because there's so much fear in like, oh, I need to be under someone, I need to have spiritual covering. And I just I'm not seeing that in the Bible. Like if you can find me spiritual covering as a concept outside of the Old Testament where we needed intermediaries, I'll be very impressed because it's really not there. Um in the New Testament, instead, um, we have the idea of community, we have the idea of covering one another, but it's not done in a hierarchical way, it's done in a you know, love one another way, which is exactly why Jesus leaves behind 12 apostles. He doesn't leave behind a chain of commands and with Peter at the top, he just doesn't do that. That is us imprinting our tradition and retrofitting what we do now or what we do around 300, 400 AD when they came with the Pope, putting it back on, right? And yet we're straight back there in the Pentecostal space. We've got our popes, we've got our, you know, we use the word apostle in a hierarchical sense. Oh, this person's an apostle, they've done da-da-da. But uh that's that's not how it's used in in the scripture, right? So uh coming back to the topic in hand, because there's so many lay larynx here. When we come back to 1 Timothy chapter 3, when it says, if anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task. Okay, so there's no office, it's it's not really a position, it's a gifting and it's a function. And what Paul is saying is if if anyone, and that word anyone, is actually gender neutral, it could have been a male-specific one or a female specific one, but it's not. It's anyone. If anyone has this desire to lead people, that would be maybe the better way of translating it. If anyone has this desire of carrying for the flock of God, he desires a noble task. So we've got the word he there, that's fair. And then it says, therefore, an overseer must be above reproach. The husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, da da da da da. It goes on. He must manage his own household well with all dignity, keeping his children submissive. And it goes on with all these requirements, which are all very good. Now, what people often say is, well, the thing is, is that um, you know, uh, well, it it says they need to be a husband of one wife. So how can it be a woman? How can how can we have a woman being an elder or being a leader or a pastor in the church? And I think there are many explanations of this, but first of all, let's just apply some common sense. I'm gonna really enjoy this, guys. Common sense, think about it for a moment. If we're gonna take this literally, literally, I you cannot take the Bible literally on everything. And I and I explain exactly why. Because if an overseer must be a husband of one wife, that must mean that an overseer has to be married. Now think about who is writing this for a moment. Who's writing this letter to Timothy? Well, of course, it's Paul. Was Paul married? No. Paul is not married. Paul would not meet the requirements to be an overseer. Now, was he an overseer? Was he an elder? I mean, not really. He was more of an apostle, but he's but he was starting churches. How can the very person who's giving this command not even be eligible to lead a church? Like common sense, guys. Common sense. This is absolute nonsense. Let's take it one step further. Jesus. Jesus was not the husband of one wife, which means that Jesus, according to a hyperliteral translation, is not eligible to lead in a church. He's not eligible to be in an overseer. So I think we can clearly see that this is not a literal instruction. But just because I'm saying it's not literal doesn't mean it doesn't matter. It's just saying there's a context. I think the context for me, it whatever we determine the context is, common sense tells us there has to be an additional context. So then the debate, the theological debate is what is that context? And that's where I'm not 100% certain, but I would give you some guesses. First of all, there is an assumption built in that most people get married, right? Like that is the way the world works even today, even though less people get married. Most people are gonna get married, have a family, you know, and the Bible clearly for me values and celebrates synchronousness and marriage separately as different things, and we see that clearly in Paul and Jesus, etc. Um, again, another topic for another day. But it's recognizing that right then when this was written, just as is true today, most people are gonna be married. And acknowledging that that is the norm or common does not devalue singleness, it also does not exclude um women, it it or excludes single people, it simply acknowledges that that's the norm, right? And then, secondly, think of it like this: it also acknowledges the cultural norm that men tend to lead. Now, this is actually also still true today, and not not everybody likes talking about it, but the reality is that if you have children as a woman, you take time out. Now, this is not me saying everyone should do this, this is not me saying, you know, you have to do this, but I, you know, my wife and I, we have four children, and my wife decided because she wanted to, I didn't make her, she wanted to take time out to be with the kids as they were young. And a couple of years ago, she's come back to work. Our eldest is now, but to turn 12, and it's like, you know, we're moving into a different season of life, and she's getting back into um, you know, the world of work um as it relates to how we typically see a job, right? Obviously, she's been working all this time. Let me tell you, that's some proper work right there. Shout out to all the mobs, right? So, and dads. So, so the reality is that even today we tend to see men taking those positions. Why? Because uh it's just easier for them to should we fight that? I I don't know. Like, I'm not really too bothered about booking trends for the sake of booking trends. What I am bothered about is making sure that every person who is called, when they're called, is encouraged and released and all those sort of things. And so that's why in our church we have lots of women who lead. And maybe we don't use the title of elder or pastor or whatever. That's more because we're not into titles. Um, I would see the women on our core leadership team as elders and pastors, and uh, they might not see it that way, maybe other people might not see it the way, but I don't really care. According to the scripture and according to my lens, that's what they're doing. So I'm gonna encourage them into that, encourage them to take authority, encourage them to lead, encourage them to do all these things. So um we can very clearly see here that there are cultural norms, and so for me, this is the obvious context. That's why Paul uses the word anyone. We don't have an office of an overseer, we have a function, we have a gifting. And so I saw a post the other day which is like, you know, women are gonna lead. And the only question is whether we are gonna recognize the fact that they lead. Because that's also common sense. If you look at the church, who leads in the church? Who organizes things? Who makes sure, like when it comes to Mother's Day and Father's Day, who's organizing that? I gotta be honest and put my hands up right now right now, guys. This is not me taking the lead on these things. This is the women on our team taking the lead. And whether that's right or wrong, I don't know. Everyone's using their gift. Uh, people are noticing things, and we're releasing and encouraging that. And so uh this scripture, even though it says an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, that's speaking to another context, which is don't be all over the place having 10 wives, right? You need to be in a faithful, committed marriage, not because marriage is the only thing that overseers are allowed to do, but because that is the cultural norm. So I hope that helps. I I'm not gonna go into much more than that because I think this has been reasonably long already. But what we're gonna see is if we look at the scripture, we see women leading. We see women operating in the function. And so it's if if that's happening already, and if we understand that the formal position is just a recognition of gifting and function, then you can't really stop women from leading. All you can do is, you know, not recognize them. And so the whole theological debate for me is just completely missing the point. Um, which is once you understand that leadership is function, not title or position, um, then everyone can do everything. Um, so that's where I am. I know there's some tricky scriptures out there, but let's let's just be honest that the literal meaning of the tricky scriptures don't really make sense, right? So, so that's how you know whenever you find a Bible verse which is really tricky, like what does that mean? That's really confusing. It can't be taken purely literally. There must be some context to explain why it makes sense, because God makes sense. And as far as I can tell, Paul's pretty clever guy who makes sense, right? So if there's something we don't understand, like the scripture which is like, you know, well, Adam was formed first, it was Eve who was deceived, therefore, you know, da da da. It's like, what are we saying here? Think of the common sense application of that scripture. Are we saying that the women are more easily deceived than men? I mean, that's just not actually true, is it? Like, think about the people you know. I don't think that women have a propensity to be deceived more than men. We all have a propensity to be deceived, and don't forget that Adam's sin, okay, he knew what he was doing. So if women have a propensity to be deceived, even if that's true, men have a propensity to rebel against God. So, like, it it doesn't really the point that we think that it's making is not what the scripture is saying. There has to be some additional context. So once we are brought to terms with two polarizing ideas, I'd I'll just I'll just I'll just end on this just as a common sense thought. If if we if we see the Bible says two things, and I'm saying uh let me make this theoretical because I'm I'm not saying it says this, but how it's received and how we maybe read it literally, which we've already talked about can be a wrong way of reading it. If we see that it says two literal things that are the opposites of one another, then they can't both be true, right? But also we're gonna see that it eradicates one option very quickly. So, for example, if the Bible shows that women lead and preach and teach and hold positions, if we see that, which I think we do pretty clearly, and the Bible prohibits women from doing those things, the answer can only be that we're allowed to. Because otherwise, the conclusion is, well, the Bible doesn't know what it's talking about, therefore it's not the word of God, or Paul doesn't know what he's talking about, or or whatever, right? Because he's confused. The only answer can be to resolve those two uh, you know, tensions of what seem like opposites, is that uh women can lead, but there must be some additional context over there. That's the only logical conclusion, that's pure logic. There must be additional context to help us understand. And so uh I find people want to get what they want to get, they want to see what they want to see, and this is the state of the human heart. But as I see it, anyone could do anything. I hope that helps. And if you are a woman and you've been wrestling with this, I want to encourage you. Um, do what God has put in your heart to do. God is not going to give you desires and gifts to use if you're not supposed to use them. And so I'm shouting you out, and I want to encourage you in a world that is confusing, in a world that is often discouraging, in a world where there's just all sorts of weird Christians out there. Um, but also we just need good theology and we need to go back to the original text. So, shout out to everyone on all sides of the issue, but I hope I've persuaded you today. Um, bless you guys. Thanks for listening today. I hope you've enjoyed this episode. Let's see how long we've been so far. We've been almost 40 minutes, which is um wild. So thanks for sticking in for this extra long episode. Thanks for listening today. If you enjoyed this, found this helpful, please leave me a rating and review on Spotify or Apple Podcasts, wherever you listen. I would really appreciate that because I just want to get these ideas out to people. Why? Because it's on my heart and I'm burning with this. And I don't really care if anyone listens or not listens. Well, I mean I do. I don't really care if anyone accepts or rejects my voice. I'm just gonna keep putting myself out there and keep sharing what I believe God has put on my heart and to share. So bless you guys. Um, have a great day, and we'll see you in the next episode.