SPEAKER_01 0:07

Hello and welcome to the NCC Advantage Podcast, where we talk about organizational health in the context of the Northern California Conference. I'm your host, Mark Woodson, and I'm here with my co-host and colleague, Jose Marin. Jose, how are you doing today?

SPEAKER_00 0:25

I'm doing great, Mark. I'm excited about today's podcast. Okay. As we see how this can be a benefit for the people who are in the front lines as our principals, our educators, and pastors.

SPEAKER_01 0:38

Yeah. We're specifically going to be talking about the first discipline of the four disciplines of organizational health. And we mentioned it in our last episode, but for those who are just tuning in this time, we're going to go over those four disciplines for organizational health, recognizing that organizational health is not a complex thing. It's very simple, but it does take a lot of discipline.

SPEAKER_00 1:05

That's the key.

SPEAKER_01 1:06

That is the key, right? Discipline. And so we'll talk about those four disciplines, but we're going to focus on just one of them. But the four disciplines are number one, is to build a cohesive leadership team. That's discipline number one. Discipline number two is to create clarity for your organization. Discipline number three is to overcommunicate that clarity. And then discipline number four is to reinforce that clarity. But today's episode is going to be talking about teamwork and building a team. So let me ask you this, uh Jose. What is a leadership team?

SPEAKER_00 1:48

Well, you know what? There are many, there are many definitions to a leadership team, but from the organizational health framework, a leadership team is basically a group of people who are collectively responsible for achieving a common objective for their organization. And we have some examples of this because many times what is not a leadership team? A leadership team is not like a golf team. Okay, it's I like golf, so what is it? What do you mean by that? Well, you know, even though golf is great, right? Golf is great, it's good, a good stress reliever, but uh when you look at golf, uh players go out there on their own. It's like everybody is against everybody, and it's about adding the scores, and whoever gets the most score is the one who wins, right? Yeah. And so um and it's a very individual performance.

SPEAKER_02 2:38

Gotcha.

SPEAKER_00 2:39

So that's not a leadership team.

SPEAKER_02 2:40

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 2:41

So a leadership team is more like a basketball team or even a soccer team now that we're getting closer to the World Cup and all that, right? Okay. So players move simultaneously and sometimes they exchange roles as they're playing.

SPEAKER_01 2:55

Uh, interesting.

SPEAKER_00 2:56

You know, um, and so I think that one of the most important things is that the team is not so much worried about how the points that they score or who makes the most points. The team is worried that they win.

SPEAKER_02 3:09

Right.

SPEAKER_00 3:10

That they collectively do everybody put their own part to win the game.

SPEAKER_01 3:14

And so it's kind of collective results.

SPEAKER_00 3:16

It's a collective results, correct.

SPEAKER_01 3:18

Yeah, that but they're working together, yeah, and that's what it really means to be a team is to work together. Which, and this is important because I think in Adventism, we have a lot of jokes about committees. Yeah. That if you don't if you want to see nothing happen, then put it in a committee, right? But team is different from committee because it's actually working together for something, not just coming up with policies or ideas. Correct. You're actually uh working together as a team. And I would say that uh we're really indebted to Patrick Lincioni and his work of the book The Advantage and this whole I kind of like to consider him the father of organizational health. He may not like that, but you know, listening to his podcasts and reading his books, I I think, you know, he's been a genius on that and this idea of this first discipline in of building a leadership, uh building a leadership team and and how that really works, and it makes a big difference.

SPEAKER_00 4:14

And I think this is important, Mark, because um as we look at organizational health and building a team, um the difference between a team and a committee is in a committee, people are advocating. They're advocating for their department, for their area. A team is different. A team is not you come in there, oh, I'm advocating for this department. A team is that we bring an issue, even even if it's related to my uh to my responsibility, to collectively as a team, we try to resolve it as a team.

SPEAKER_01 4:46

Yeah. So you and I've been at this uh for five years, five plus years. We started it here uh in in this conference, and then we took it, we have our own leadership team of uh eight, or we started with eight. We have seven on that leadership team. We've referred to that as our executive leadership team, and they give direction um to this conference. That's a big conference, uh 40,000, 41,000 members and and uh churches and schools, uh number of people, a thousand employees, so it's a lot to be able to to give direction to. And then we've tried to pass this on to departmental directors and our churches and our schools. And the question that often comes up uh in this whole thing is why should we have a team? Why should we have a leadership team? Can't the principal or the pastor just make decisions and make things happen? So why would it be important to have a leadership team? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:46

Great question. Uh I think one of the the big important things about, especially as you're leading, any person is a principal, an educator, specifically a pastor, you're leading. And you cannot lead in isolation. You need people around you to be able to help you make those decisions. That's why a team is so important. The other thing is that the reason why also is important to have a team is because a team is an extension. For example, if I'm a principal, that team that I put together around me, it's an extension of my work that I do, my role. If it's a pastor, you know, there's a lot of things that we we decide on our own that we have, um, things that we work on, but a team is going to help me, it's gonna be an extension of myself, and it's gonna help me with a team to make better and faster decisions for the organization.

SPEAKER_01 6:38

Yeah, that's excellent. One of the easiest uh answers I give to that is Jesus had a leadership team. Right? So if Jesus had a leadership team, it might be important to have that, right? Um and people say, What? Jesus had a leadership team. Yeah, right. I mean, one of my favorite texts is Luke chapter six, verse 12 and 13. And it says, One of those days Jesus went out to a mountainside to pray and spent the night praying to God. When morning came, he called his disciples to him and chose twelve of them, whom he also designated apostles. Mark chapter 3, verses 13 to 15 roughly is saying the same thing. And it says that Jesus brought them together, that they would be with him, that so uh they would learn of him, right? They would be with him and that he would send them out. And that sending them out to me is ministry, right? They were sent out for ministry, they were to accomplish something, and we know ultimately it was about accomplishing Jesus' mission, which was to seek and to save uh the lost. And so Jesus had a leadership team, yes, and that team, like every team, is to help the leader accomplish a mission.

SPEAKER_00 7:56

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 7:56

Accomplish a mission. So I really, I really like that. I think about when we were first um when our consultants uh from the table group first uh came and talked to talked to me about who should be on the leadership team. Um I remember the question because the question that came from Daniel, our consultant, was Mark, who do you want around you to help you make good decisions and to get things done? And I think that is a good example of what a team does. It helps the leader make good decisions. Uh organization is about organizational health is about making good decisions and making them faster.

SPEAKER_02 8:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:40

So I think that is why we try to help people say, listen, you need people around you. Um Jesus, who could have done everything by himself, had a team. I'm not greater than Jesus. Yes. So it's important to have that.

SPEAKER_00 8:54

Yeah. I think one of the things also um as we look at as when you when you're building on the team, right? Who who should be part of your team? Yeah. And one of the things from these Arab uh these Arab Ages, Alan G. White talks about what was the one thing that he was looking on his team. Yeah. And it says here, um These are qualities. These are qualities, right? Yeah it's the skills are important, but the qualities is what Jesus was looking for. Yes. And and Jesus it says here, Jesus chose unlearned fishermen. They were men of native ability. So it's not that they didn't know what they were doing in terms of work. And these were people of ability, but here's the one that I really like. And they were humble and teachable. Wow. I think what a what a better quality of the people you begin to bring on your team than people who are going to be humble and teachable.

SPEAKER_01 9:46

Boy, that's a whole nother episode where we talk about hungry, humble, and smart, right? The qualities that you want to have in the ideal team player, hungry, humble, and smart. And uh Ellen White had already said this in Desire of Ages, page 250, right? This idea of being teachable and uh being humble. Um so that's important. So if I'm a if I'm a principal or if I'm a pastor, how do I like, what do I think about in terms of who should be on that team? Because there's a lot of discussions, yeah, right? We've had these discussions, especially with pastors, of how is my team, my leadership team, different from my church board?

SPEAKER_00 10:31

Right? And that's a question we get a lot. We do get that question. We get that question a lot, but what what authority does the leadership team have? What's the difference between the leadership team and the church board? Does the church board have to approve the leadership team? Yes. And and I think the first thing that that I would say to this is that when you select your leadership team, you have to think about the differences, remember, in your church board, it's it's it's more of the um the operations. It's more of the you know, the membership transfers, it's about the the baptism, is the is the it's the facilities, is the property. But when you're looking at your leadership team, your leadership team, some ideas of a leadership team could be, for example, who are the people that are we would consider the officers of a church board? Okay. That would be the pastor, of course, the pastor, the treasurer, right? The treasurer, um, an elder, right, and the church clerk.

SPEAKER_02 11:30

Right.

SPEAKER_00 11:30

Because these are the these are the ones that have the the movement of the church. And of course, you can always include uh a deacon or a deaconess or a key staff. But but the difference is that when you have a team, you're not gonna be advocating for a department, you're tackling things together. You're trying to move the organization not to be reactive, but to be responsive to things that are happening and things in the future. And that's why I like the whole idea of having a leadership team because it's very different than the church board.

SPEAKER_01 12:01

Yeah, that's you raised a good point there. And I I wonder um, you know, how how do these individuals work together? Like, why is it important I I get because you raised this, right? Why would you think it's important that they not advocate for their own area? Um and I can imagine um advocating in your own area if you're the let's say if you're the elder. Yeah, right? What would that look like to advocate for your area for your own area?

SPEAKER_00 12:30

Yeah. So the the only thing is that when you're advocating for your own area, you're thinking about it's more individualistic. You're thinking about your repart your your responsibility. And so you're not being inquisitive.

SPEAKER_01 12:42

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 12:43

When you when you have a team, instead of me advocating, I'm more focused instead of me focusing on trying to prove a point so that they can get a vote on it or to support it, on a team, it's not about getting a vote or approval, it's about I'm asking questions.

SPEAKER_02 12:58

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 12:58

Because if there's an issue that has been brought up or raised, this is our issue as well. We're collectively dealing with it. So that's why that's the difference between advocating. Advocating, I'm just consumed with getting this through, but not so much on asking questions about how is this going to benefit the organization, how is this going to benefit the church. So a team allows me to be, to inquire, to ask questions, which is that's where it's important.

SPEAKER_01 13:24

I think one of the blessings that I have seen, you have perhaps seen, is you probably agree with this, that organizational health is about alignment. And I think alignment, the opposite of alignment, I think, is when we're used, is when we're caught in these silos. Yeah. Right? When we're working our area. Um if you're an elder, it's like only what the elders are doing without looking at the bigger picture of the direction of the whole church. Yes. So your team is really to help with the whole with the direction of the whole church. And that brings more alignment than just I'm only focusing on what the elders do, I'm only focusing on what the clerks do, I'm only focusing on what the deacons do, or any of the other uh departments uh and ministries of the church. I had someone one time say, you know, this organizational health thing and having a leadership team, and that doesn't really work in a church setting. But how do you how do you answer that? I know what my answer is, but how do you answer that when when someone says that? I have you heard that before?

SPEAKER_00 14:26

Yes, I have heard of that. Like that doesn't work in a church. And I would say, try it.

unknown 14:31

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 14:31

Try it first. But I would say it probably works better in a church setting. Okay, right. Why do you say that? Well, because in a church setting, you know, it's a smaller, smaller organization that you're working with. It's it's they're your church. We're trying here to work with 41,000 members, 168 churches. So it's a little bit more unrealistic, but it's it's still doable. But when you have a church, um, these are the people on your team, these are the people that are the ones that have been elected and the ones that are also have a deep burden for the for the well-being of the congregation, them to mive to move the mission forward. And and so so to say that it doesn't work, first of all, you have to try it. You have to try it.

SPEAKER_01 15:14

So people are often saying it doesn't work and they haven't tried it. Yeah, for example.

SPEAKER_00 15:17

It's come from, for example, and I always put this example to pastors. I'd say, all right, so if there's an issue that typically you're the one who's trying to resolve, you bring it to the elders, then you bring it to the board, and you're not clear. With the leadership team, you don't just have a perspective of an elder. With a leadership team, you have a perspective of some of your key people on your team that if this has to come to the board, it's already gone through some good discernment.

SPEAKER_01 15:43

Gotcha.

SPEAKER_00 15:44

It's gone through some good discernment, some good, and so it just you bring it up to the board, right? Not everything comes to the board, but I would say this is why for me it's so important, and it is easier to do it in a church setting than in a larger organization.

SPEAKER_01 15:56

I totally agree with that. And one of the one of the examples I give, I I I say, like, hey, on the conference level, we're doing this, but it's much more challenging, as you mentioned about the 168 congregations, 30 schools, um, all the departments, and you know, corralling all of that together, the other ministries. But um, so with leading this way in a conference, it's like you're leading a big ship. Yes. If you're in a church, if your church is not huge, it's more like a speedboat.

SPEAKER_00 16:25

Yeah. Right?

SPEAKER_01 16:25

And so turning and maneuvering with a speedboat is much faster and much more efficient and often effective than a big giant conference. So that's one of the things. And the other thing I said, if I'm pastoring again, man, I would love to do this because I I wish I'd had this 30 years ago when I was pastoring and and and doing this kind of work. So what um I think about we talked a lot about churches. What about schools? What does a what does a um leadership team look like for a school?

SPEAKER_00 17:00

Yeah, so what what it what are your thoughts for that?

SPEAKER_01 17:03

Well, um, it'd be nice to have like our vice president for education here with us talking about who's that but I have you know worked with one of our schools, which is our um our our boarding school, Leone uh Leone Meadows, um, Rio, right? We've done this with Leone Metals too, by the way, which is our camp. Um, but with Rio, it's the same thing. Like who should be on that leadership team? And I know in that particular case it was the principal, the vice principal, it was the business manager or uh the treasurer there. Um it is also, I believe they have their secretary registrar person on there, and there may be one other that I'm not thinking of, but it's about five, oh, they even have their their marketing and enrollment person that is part of their team. Now, every school may not have that, but that would be those are the ones uh and it goes back to the question, right? The question is who do you principal, Mr. Principal, Mrs. Principal, who would you like to have around you to help you make good decisions and to move your school forward? Um that if you're in a small school, that may mean all of your teachers, right? It may be because in small schools they may wear various hats. Um you know, if there's only two or three of you, then that would be then that would be sufficient. But again, it's who is around you to help you operate this school or this organization, church, school, ministry, even department, right? Department, we have department directors that are doing this. Who who should you have around you uh to make to make this happen?

SPEAKER_00 18:52

One of the things I forgot to mention is that people have asked, how many people should compose a leadership team? Yeah. And typically we get up. Yeah, we get a lot. Typically I would say, of course, no more, no more than what Jesus had, for sure, right? But for the most case, you know, I I I do see sometimes that that churches struggle to build larger teams because most of our churches are mid-sized. Yeah. So I would say a good practice is probably four to eight.

SPEAKER_01 19:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:20

Builds a good leadership team. Because remember, the more people you have on the team, then it makes it one you you can run in once again into fall into the mode of advocating instead of being that. Yeah. So that's it.

SPEAKER_01 19:35

And I found too, and from a practical standpoint, the more people you have a team on a team, the more schedules you have to try to. Yeah, that's in order to meet.

SPEAKER_00 19:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:43

We'll have an open so we're talking about meetings, yeah. But that makes it challenging when you have too many people on a team. Uh, because one, you want to have engagement, and the other is man, trying to keep those schedules all together because you're going to be meeting uh on a regular basis can can be a challenge to be able to do that. So let me ask you this question. You've been now, you're on a team, yes, but you also lead a team.

SPEAKER_00 20:10

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 20:11

Okay, so when you're on a team, we call that your team one. So what's your team number one?

SPEAKER_00 20:17

So my team number one is the executive leadership team. Okay. The one I'm part of part of, the one that you you lead as a team leader. That's the first, that's the team number.

SPEAKER_01 20:26

That's team number one. Okay. Yes. And then your team number two, which is the team you lead. So what is that team for you?

SPEAKER_00 20:33

For that team for me, it's it's my secretariat leadership team. And it's interesting because before the organizational health, uh, um pre prior to this conference, I was in another conference where I was executive secretary. I didn't have a leadership team. Pretty much I it was me working with my assistant and trying to come up with stuff. But when I brought up and formed the team, this team has made, I believe, made my service to as an executive secretary for the rest of the field even more effective and better. So having that leadership team in my personal experience has given me more perspective, better insights, it's made me aware of things that maybe I'm not aware to give me more uh uh self-awareness as a leader. So I totally vouch for a leadership team.

SPEAKER_01 21:30

You can probably tell by now in this episode, we we are really like endorsing the idea of having a team because uh several people, you know, people don't think in terms of saying, I gotta have a team, but we're really trying to underscore that in your in your church, uh, whether you're leading a department in your church or a ministry in your church, or um, you know, or or you're a principal of a school, or you're the pastor of a church, or you lead another ministry, we're saying, you know, the the first, the very first discipline is to formulate uh that that leadership team. So um that's very that's very important. All right, well, we will end with a couple of quotes that that we have enjoyed that really I think expresses the idea of organizational health and the NCC advantage.

SPEAKER_00 22:20

Chris Mary says that the difference between a team of champions and a championship team isn't the skill set of the athletes, but rather lies on getting everyone to roll in the same direction. That is the quickest way to win a gold.

SPEAKER_01 22:41

And that one of our favorite uh authors, Christian authors, Ellen White in Christian Service, page 75, says if Christians were to act in concert, moving forward as one, under the direction of one power for the accomplishment of one purpose, they would move the world. So organizational health really is about this is moving our mission forward and so that we can make an impact on the world for Jesus Christ. So that ends uh this uh episode. And uh thanks for joining us. And we hope you tune in for our next episode because we're gonna be talking about not just the fact that you should have a team, but how you build cohesion on your leadership team. That's gonna be exciting. I'm looking forward to that, Jose.

SPEAKER_00 23:34

Yeah, me too. I think it's we're gonna get we're gonna begin to get more into the to the details of how to build a cohesive team.

SPEAKER_01 23:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:44

What does that mean?

SPEAKER_01 23:45

Yeah, thanks for joining us. Time went by fast. We're looking forward to the next time. God bless