SPEAKER_00 0:07

Hello and welcome to the NCC Advantage Podcast, where we talk about organizational health in the Northern California Conference. I'm your host, Mark Woodson, and I'm here with my co-host and colleague, Jose Morin. Jose, how are you feeling today?

SPEAKER_01 0:23

I feel great. Happy to join you again on this podcast and excited about today's conversation.

SPEAKER_00 0:29

Yeah, it's gonna be a good one, I think. It's a very important one. What's our title? What's the title of our episode?

SPEAKER_01 0:36

Well, it's this this podcast is so critical that we've titled it The Stakes Are High. The Stakes Are High.

SPEAKER_00 0:44

Man, that's a good one. Because today we're gonna be talking about what we talked about in our previous episode, which is building a cohesive leadership team. We're talking about how important it is to have a team and who should be on that team. But today we're gonna be talking about how you make that team stick. And it's it's discipline number one, right? Cohesive leadership team, uh building a cohesive leadership team is discipline number one, and how does that team uh work together? Now, there was a book uh written, I don't know how many years ago. Now it's been quite a few years, uh, by who we call the father of organizational health, and that's Patrick Lincioni. And it's one of his best-selling books, and it was called The Five Dysfunctions of a Team. And um, in a positive way, you could say the thing that makes a team uh become more cohesive is exhibiting these five behaviors. So, Jose, what are those five behaviors that help a team uh stick together?

SPEAKER_01 1:51

Yes, so so um I'm gonna start with number one. Okay. Um and and and if I if if I were to draw a pyramid, I would put this at the base. Of a pyramid. A pyramid, because this would help us understand how this builds everything up. Okay. And so the the first uh the first key to having a cohesive team, and remember cohesive is not just that you get along, but cohesive is that you are acting as a team and you are rowing in the same direction and you're tackling it. So with that in mind, would be trust.

SPEAKER_00 2:26

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 2:27

Trust is the first one. Now, many people say, well, we don't have trust in our team. And remember, organizational health is a journey. So it's not that when you start building a cohesive team, is that it's not that you have all the trust, but we're talking about specifically vulnerability-based trust.

SPEAKER_00 2:45

Vulnerability-based trust. That sounds scary.

SPEAKER_01 2:49

Well, in a way it is, because uh one of the things that we have learned and we have experienced, Mark, in our leadership team, and in the and also on the team that I lead is that why is this so important? Because when we are vulnerable, that means that we are being intentional of creating a safe space to be able to share how we feel, the uh the ideas or opinions that we bring when we're making a decision. If we are not vulnerable on even when I make a mistake or I've said something that maybe wasn't that maybe was not good, that it was not gonna help the team, being vulnerable, it just it's a way of just encouraging a safe space for, and one of the things that they, you know, uh I believe Google did a a massive investment on they they were trying to see what were the best teams. Yes. The best teams that they had, and they came out to one conclusion. The best teams had what they called psychological safety.

SPEAKER_00 3:56

Safety. There it is.

SPEAKER_01 3:58

And that's what it this is what it intends.

SPEAKER_00 4:00

That's what you mean by that safe space. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 4:03

But you have yeah, yeah, but you have to be vulnerable.

SPEAKER_00 4:06

You have to be vulnerable. So, what is what are some of those things that um help help us to be vulnerable? What does that look like, this vulnerability?

SPEAKER_01 4:15

Yeah, I'm gonna share from the context of our team. You know, vulnerability can come from the fact that I I was I was tasked to do something and I didn't I didn't fall I I didn't work it through, and I dropped the ball.

SPEAKER_00 4:32

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 4:32

So vulnerability-based trust would say, hey team, I know that this project, what I was doing, there's a bit you were dependent on me to do this, but I want I I just want to I I just I want to apologize to the team because I was not able to do what I said what I was I was gonna do. So I just want to be vulnerable to to you guys. And actually, I've been so busy, I need help.

SPEAKER_00 4:55

Okay. So so the idea of trust is being being vulnerable then is to admitting where I have failed or uh what I'm not comfortable doing, or or also sharing what I may not be as capable of doing. Yeah, right. Like guys, I'm not as good at that, right? So that idea of vulnerability is saying, I don't I don't have all the answers, I'm not necessarily always the smartest person in the room, right? You're able to let your guard down in a sense, right? Without judgment. And um and it's interesting because if you don't have this trust, you're not gonna be able to move up to the next level of what are the other five behaviors. Um, but it's it's about exposing your weaknesses and your fears to the team and being being vulnerable about where you are with that. So all right. So what's the what's the next level up in this pyramid that we're building?

SPEAKER_01 5:53

So, Mark, I will so you are the team leader for our executive team. I would like to ask you, what is the role of a team leader on this one?

SPEAKER_00 6:01

And and we probably didn't talk a lot about that in terms uh in our last episode about um you know what it means to be uh a team, that there's a leader of that team, right? And so what is the role of the leader when it comes to this trust level? And the role of the leader is to go first. That means the leader must be vulnerable first. If you're gonna create that safe space, um, that psychological space, you have to be vulnerable as leader so the rest of the team knows that it's safe to be vulnerable as well.

unknown 6:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:36

And we have seen you exemplify that on many, many occasions. Yeah. But it just there's something about the leader being vulnerable that opens a whole team for that.

SPEAKER_00 6:46

Well, because I have a lot of weaknesses, so it's easy to be vulnerable. So, all right. Yeah, that's good. And we should talk about that in every one of these areas that the leader plays a certain role. So we've talked about trust. What's the next level up in that uh pyramid?

SPEAKER_01 7:04

So the next one is conflict. And this is a very important one. Sometimes when when teams hear about conflict, right? I thought I thought a healthy team didn't have conflict.

SPEAKER_00 7:15

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 7:15

But no, conf, what we talk about here, conflict, is is the up is is a space where a team can can can share differing opinions. Okay where we can even get it can be heated at some times because it's not so much that I'm trying to advocate for my opinion, but it's more because we're trying to in in in in the um in more opinions and more ideas, we're able to make a better decision.

SPEAKER_00 7:41

Got it.

SPEAKER_01 7:41

So the conflict here is ideological conflict.

SPEAKER_00 7:45

That's a key, I think that's a key word, ideological conflict, because most times when people think of conflict, they think of personal conflict, right? That I'm upset with you, I didn't like how you said something, I right?

SPEAKER_01 7:59

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 7:59

But the conflict we're talking about here is ideological conflict where we're debating ideas. We're debating ideas or issues or decision that we need to make, right? So an idea would be I think we should paint uh the uh church uh walls green. And uh you might have a differing opinion than that, right? And but I shouldn't take that personally if you say no, I think it should be red, and we argue and we debate that is an idea. Yes, it is not you saying that I don't like the fact that uh you want to paint it green because I just don't like you. Yeah, that's personal conflict, right? Yeah, but it is ideological conflict, it's debating of ideas, and too often we have personal conflict instead of ideological ones. But it's important. Why do you why would you say the ideological conflict is so important? The debate, right? Why is that so important?

SPEAKER_01 8:58

I would say the reason why the conflict is so important, and we're talking about the stakes are high. Okay, right. If you're not having conflict, that means you're not making the best decisions.

SPEAKER_00 9:10

Ah, got it. Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_01 9:13

That's why the stakes are high.

SPEAKER_00 9:15

And the idea of debate, I've heard uh one of our consultants say this, right? Debate is trying to get to the best truth you can get to. Yes. Right? Okay. And then I know you're gonna ask this, and that is what's the leader's role? Yes. What is the leader's role? The leader's role is to mine for conflict. I've done the air quotes on that, right? Mine for conflict. What does that mean? That means the leader is looking around the room and making sure everyone is contributing and being able to give their opinion. Uh, because ultimately what you want is you want them to weigh in so later they can buy in. So that the role of that team leader is to make sure everybody's weighed in. And that's what mind for conflict. Or sometimes I heard in a meeting today someone say, Hey, I'm gonna play the devil's advocate. My good friend Ricardo Graham says the devil doesn't need an advocate. But anyway, uh, they say, I want to play the devil's advocate. And what does that mean? That means like giving a differing opinion so that we can move away from just groupthink and make sure we're getting at the best, the best answer. Yeah. All right. So what's next? What's the next level up?

SPEAKER_01 10:25

So the next, and and it's interesting because um you're always working on all these five. Right. You're always, it's not like you wait for this one. No, they're they're interchangeable.

SPEAKER_00 10:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:34

However, if you are having healthy conflict, if you're if you're having conflict, it's gonna lead you to the third one, which is commitment.

SPEAKER_00 10:43

Commitment.

SPEAKER_01 10:44

Yeah, and commitment is not about that we all agree. Or that we're gonna take a vote and all of us are we have consensus. Okay, right. Commitment is basically the the whole thought that I can support that decision.

SPEAKER_00 11:01

Got it.

SPEAKER_01 11:02

Even if it even when I shared my opinion about it, maybe it would be different to what the as a group, as a team, the outcome.

SPEAKER_00 11:11

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 11:12

But is the fact that I'm able to support that decision.

SPEAKER_00 11:15

Support that decision, yeah. I don't know if you've ever seen this. I've seen this where uh a group or a committee makes a decision and then uh later on, if the decision goes well, doesn't go well, then someone later on says, Well, I never agreed to that.

unknown 11:32

Right?

SPEAKER_00 11:32

Or they go into the parking lot and say, Why do we make that decision? I don't agree. That's really right. And therefore, they're not really showing, they're not really showing that commitment to to the decision that was made, even, or buying into that decision. So once you weigh in, then you've gotta you've gotta be able to buy in. So what's the leader's role in that? The leader's role is to bring about clarity and closure. Because at some point when you're making a decision, you can't keep going around and around and around in circles, like we do sometimes. Uh, but the role of that team leader is to say, okay, I've heard the different ideas, I've heard the different opinions, here's what the decision should be. So the leader of the team is the one that brings that clarity, forces that clarity, and then brings closure and a decision is made. And sometimes, and we've had to do this, right, Jose, sometimes we have to say, all right, can you buy in? Can you commit? Can you commit? Even if you didn't agree, can you commit?

SPEAKER_01 12:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:38

And so commitment is so important. All right, so we have trust, we have conflict, healthy conflict, right? We've got commitment, and then uh the fourth one, which is really a high stakes.

SPEAKER_01 12:52

The fourth one is really high stakes, is actually um probably one of the most difficult ones for teams to be able to reach right away. It's accountability.

SPEAKER_00 13:02

Accountability. Big word.

SPEAKER_01 13:04

It's a big word because accountability is everybody expects, and you probably will share more about this, but everybody expects that if there's going to be accountability, I'm gonna share my issue with the leader so that the leader can talk to the other person, and then they come back and they say, hey, this is what they said. So accountability is really peer-to-peer accountability.

SPEAKER_00 13:25

Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_01 13:26

So if if there's something, if there's a behavior that is that is keeping the team from accomplishing something, or we've decided to do something, and somebody in the team is doing something that is hurting us or holding us back, we don't wait for a leader, but it's a peer-to-peer. So if you have noticed that, you as a peer, bring that up.

SPEAKER_00 13:51

Wow, that's hard.

SPEAKER_01 13:52

It's hard. That's hard also. It's one of the hardest things to do.

SPEAKER_00 13:56

So in other words, if there's something that I see that my my my fellow colleague on the team is not doing, I call that out.

SPEAKER_01 14:06

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 14:07

Wow, that's hard.

SPEAKER_01 14:08

That's a that's a hard one.

SPEAKER_00 14:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:11

But I would say this is why this is a discipline, right? Yes. Because the more you do it, you're gonna realize that it's not about you. It's about the team. Yeah. That's the whole idea behind it.

SPEAKER_00 14:25

Yeah, that the accountability, it's a it's a it is a big word, but it's so important. I remember someone uh saying that um what we often suffer from, especially as followers of Jesus, is terminal niceness, right? And we we're very uncomfortable calling out something, a behavior uh or an action that is detrimental to the team and even detrimental to the work. And it's really not helping us to let that go because we're uncomfortable with calling something out. And we like to say you should do it with kindness, right? With the kind truth. And the kind truth, I believe, is what Jesus did with his disciples and those around him. He spoke the kind truth, right? Uh when he was saying to the sons of thunder, he called them Boronurges. You're you're you're kind of hot-tempered here, and you've got to let some of that go, right? Or, you know, so there's that accountability of of what of the team, of the team. And so uh the role of the leader in this accountability is uh really to make sure those difficult issues are confronted, those difficult issues that hurt the team. It may be something as simple, though, as you were supposed to carry out an assignment and you didn't carry out that assignment, we should hold you accountable to that. Or hold you accountable to a decision that was made. But don't be afraid of the difficult decisions. All right. So we've got trust, we've got conflict, healthy conflict, we've got um a commitment, we have accountability, and then the top of that pyramid is the is the last function of a cohesive team.

SPEAKER_01 16:12

Results or outcome, which would be collective. Okay, collective results or collective uh outcomes. Um and the reason why this is at last because we don't start with the idea of the collective results and go down the period pyramid, right? Typically when we have an issue when we don't do it the organizational health way, if somebody didn't meet a quota or didn't do it, we hold them accountable, right? And then it leads to what happened? Well, I never committed to that, and then it leads to a conflict, and then it it it kind of like So it's going backwards going backwards.

SPEAKER_00 16:46

It's going backwards.

SPEAKER_01 16:47

That's why this is not the first one. Got it. So, but it is this one, it does say that our goal is team results. And how many times have we had the joy and the blessing of celebrating together?

SPEAKER_00 17:00

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 17:01

Then it said, oh, this is what this was Jose who accomplished this, this was uh this person who accomplished this, this was Mark who accomplished. No, this is a team, something that a team was able to do. Yeah, and and we've celebrated many times about things that we were able to accomplish, whether small or big. So there's something about that is vital to this and why this is why this is all important.

SPEAKER_00 17:21

And I like that idea of collective results because that really says a lot about a team. That really focuses on the power of a team as collectively we we won uh together. I think about uh a basketball player, uh, this was years ago, probably maybe 20 years ago now, and uh his name is Robert Ory. And uh Robert Ory won seven NBA championships. A couple of those teams he didn't even play, right? A couple of those uh teams he's he was hurt, sat on the bench, and uh, but yet he has you know he has seven championships simply because he was on the team. So no one says, well, you guys won, but we didn't win, because all of them get like a ring, right? That shows that they that they won uh this particular championship. And I think about that is it's collective because your success is my success. We did that, we did that together, and I like that because that's what I believe this idea and this um concept of organizational health does. It really brings that alignment, it brings togetherness, it brings unity, and um there's no there's no just one person who has made made that successful. So it's a beautiful thing uh to be have to be able to have a team. So um well that is uh that's what it means to be a cohesive leadership team. Um there's so much more we can say about it. Um but it really is the five behaviors of a cohesive team are are so critical, so important, and uh it really makes for a healthy, healthy team and a healthy organization. And why do we say the stakes are high? We say the stakes are high because this is discipline number one, right, of the four disciplines. And if you don't get a cohesive team, if you don't get that part right, you won't be able to get the rest of it. Um so that's why we say the stakes are high. Well, that's all we have time for uh for this uh particular episode. But again, we like to close on uh two great uh quotes.

SPEAKER_01 19:32

And and I I I'm gonna finish with Chris Mary's quote. I I think it just um just clarifies about the stakes are high, why this is important. It says the difference between a team of champions and a championship team isn't the skill set of the athletes, but rather lies in getting everyone to roll in the same direction. That is that is the quickest quickest way to win gold.

SPEAKER_00 20:00

All right, and then this one from our favorite Christian author, Alan G. White, in Christian Service, page 75. If Christians were to act in concert, moving forward as one, under the direction of one power for the accomplishment of one purpose, they would move the world. Amen. Amen. Amen. Thanks for joining us on the NCC Advantage Podcast. We look forward to being with you again the next time.