Ep3 - The Incredible Hulk Retrospective with Daredevil BA S2Ep1 Review

Episode 3 - The Goodell Bros highlight their thoughts on the Daredevil Born Again Season 2 premier then segway into a full breakdown and retrospective view on The Incredible Hulk (2008).

Like Marvel? Yes! Like MCU? Yes! Like hearing about superheroes, movie rumors, trailer reactions? Welcome to the Goodell Multiverse podcast! Just two movie and Marvel nerds, Ike & Sam Goodell aka The Goodell Bros, just talking about all the Marvel content they can! Turning a passion into a podcast.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Actually, let's restart. Yeah, sure. Go ahead. Well, hey everybody. This is the Goodell Multiverse Podcast. My name is Sam Goodell. I'm Isaiah Goodell. Let's get started with the episode today. Uh we are this is our third episode. We're diving into the incredible Hulk. But first, before we get to the main topic at hand, we got on our agenda the news of the week. Um, we're also gonna review uh Daredevil Born Again Season 2, episode one that came out. They had a last-minute schedule change of Marvel, but eh, we'll discuss that in a moment. And then, of course, we're reviewing every MCU movie that's ever came out. We already did Iron Man One, so if you haven't watched that or listened to that yet, go back, subscribe, uh, like our videos so you can help get us out there a little bit more and listen to our conversation on Iron Man One. Yeah, this will be our official second movie on our March to Doomsday, basically. Yeah, March to Doomsday. Perfect. Like that. That's perfect. Yes, yeah. So we're reviewing the Incredible Hulk. So tune into our social media accounts too, by the way, because in case you miss an episode, we will post on there what we're discussing up next, and we want to hear your thoughts and comments and what you thought about those movies so we could be able to um kind of gauge what the audience thinks and what the world views these movies, and then we're of course gonna give you our two cents here.

SPEAKER_00 1:24

Yeah, we'd like to hear your opinion as well because it might be a perspective that we didn't think of, and it's all debate and and fun as it is. So awesome.

SPEAKER_02 1:32

All right, so let's get things started with three different uh news of the week. Uh let's see, we're gonna start off first with discussing that Wonder Man season two has been announced. Marvel announces its third show with a second season. The second topic we're gonna talk about is the Punisher Spotlight special that's gonna be on Disney Plus. Um, there's a special surprise during a last-minute schedule change. The Punisher's long-awaited Disney Plus special finally now arrives on May 12th, 2026, literally the week after Daredevil Born Again Season 2 is done. So, the third thing we're gonna talk about too is some breaking records with a Marvel movie. Um, Spider-Man, brand new day, the first trailer, uh, shattered records by generating approximately 718.6 million views within the first 24 hours. That title, I believe, was previously held by Deadpool and Wolverine. And I don't know those numbers on top of my head, but this one flew right past that number. And that's just the teaser trailer. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So this this trailer, um, it became officially the most watched trailer in history of cinema, not just Marvel. This is like uh industry-wide cinema. Uh, the trailer has reached over one billion views in just four days, which is still monumental. And so we're gonna talk about all three of these things. Yeah, Ike, why don't you kick it off of whatever you want to talk about first?

SPEAKER_00 3:00

So we'll start right there with Wonder Man season two. Um, this will be a quick one for me because I've yet to finish season one. I do like what I see of it so far. Marvel um and I have a very unique relationship with the TV shows. I'm not a fan of the majority of them. And I'm not saying that as that they're bad. I just went into them back when they first started doing them in a different mindset and kind of felt let down when I realized how unconnected to the movies they are or how connected they are, and how that water is kind of muddy on what they want us to think. I was huge on Loki season one, thought it was awesome, and then when I got to the end, and as they kept going, I kind of realized, oh, not a lot of that meant much. And to me, it was kind of mind-blowing stuff if you're just comparing it to the movies. So, and they've also been very not clear with us about it. So, but with that said, Wonder Man is fun. I like the actors, I like the story, it's a good time. I will watch it. Um, you know, the Marvel's TV shows are competing with some other shows I watch right now, and unfortunately, it's kind of like lower on the list. You know, I'm gonna watch things like Landman before I watch Wonderman. You know, I feel it's made for the other landman's made more for me than Wonderman is, and unfortunately. So um I'm glad they're getting a season two. Season one's good, good so far. Um, I think you'd have to be really bad to not get a season two, anyways, when it comes down to these shows.

SPEAKER_02 4:30

And the sad thing is to piggyback on that, most of these shows have been not as not uh renewal worthy, is the best way to say it.

SPEAKER_00 4:40

Yeah, so they must have a great this must have a good ending, and they must have a great idea moving forward, or they wouldn't be spending the money. Because I think Marvel is starting to be aware that oh man, we've kind of messed up with our shows a little. Maybe, maybe not. We'll see as it goes goes on going forward. So how do you feel about Wonder Man season two coming?

SPEAKER_02 5:00

So uh I'll be honest, I was I was looking forward to Wonder Man season one, and then it's good to have this perspective going into Wonderman, especially for you yourself that haven't seen it yet. Don't go into it thinking of what you typically think of Marvel. Because typically when you think of a Marvel movie or Marvel show, you're expecting action, you're expect you're expecting some of these different things. Wonder Man in particular, he's kind of like a niche type character. If you like um TV shows like I believe it's called The Studio from uh Apple, where it's basically like an insider look at Hollywood and how it how it worked to a degree. If you like that, you'll like Wonder Man because what Wonder Man basically is, and I don't know if he he deviated too much from the comics because he does have a similar origin to a degree in the comics. There are key differences, of course, but what I'll say is um this Wonderman's about a man who just so happens to be a superpowered person, he has powers, it doesn't explain in the show, spoiler warning, it doesn't explain in the show how he got his powers, it alludes to it, but it never explicitly says what it is. So it's left very ambiguous if he's a mutant, if he's an inhuman, if he is something completely different. We really have no idea what MCU is gonna do with Wonderman, but uh his chemistry between him and Trevor Slattery, who is uh Ben Kingsley, the the fake Mandarin, if you want to call him that. Very I'll tell you, it's my favorite performance of him in the MCU of Trevor Slayer. Really good. Like this is an unexpected surprise. I would call Wonder Man kind of a sleeper hit where it's not going to be on everyone's radar for some of those things I said. It's not your typical look of a Marvel show, but it it hit the points that it wanted to hit. It just told the story very differently than what we're used to. And it's kind of nice to expand the world of Marvel to see what regular people are like and what industries like Hollywood in the MCU would be like towards superpowered people, and that's what uh Wonder Man basically did. I did think um it ended on a really good cliffhanger, but I don't know if it was a cliffhanger worthy enough of a season two, in my personal point of view. I think it was good, and I would I would tune in to see more, definitely. It has some pacing issues because it's not your typical Marvel movie um and show, I should say. Um, there are displays of powers, but it's very rarely utilized, and then when you do see them, they're magnificent. It's like some of the best that the TV shows I've done for PowerWise and showing them CGI, but I think the reason they're able to do that is because he uses them very seldomly, yeah, which is kind of smart. It is, it is. Um, so it's it was really good. Um, I did like season one, and I would see a season two. I will say I am surprised though that of all the shows that Marvel has done, and I don't have a number on the top of my head, but Wonder Man's only the third show that they've done that has gotten officially renewed for a season two. We had Loki, which was a huge hit. He had a huge fan base though in the beginning. So everyone loved Loki and the movies announcing him as his own show, of course, is already generating a lot of views, a lot of hype. I I don't even know if they finished season one when they already said they were working on a season two. It was that big of a deal. Um, the second show was Daredevil Born Again, and we're gonna get into that. But that is the official second show that Disney Plus has done um of a Marvel property that has been renewed and now currently streaming a second season. Um shows that surprise me, I would say, that haven't been renewed since we're in in this topic right now, it's like Ironheart. I know that wasn't very well received, but ended on a hell of a cliffhanger that makes me want to see what's gonna happen next. So I'm actually shocked they haven't renewed that one yet because that was a show that came out before Wonderman that already had enough hype around it for seeing a continuation, but Marvel hasn't greenblit it. So who knows what they're gonna do with that character or with that uh cliffhanger. I do pray they address that cliffhanger because that's a big deal to introduce in a small show like that.

SPEAKER_00 9:23

But anyways, um just to piggyback on that real quick, I can give you kind of an answer on why we didn't get so many sequels or second seasons, is because I think we can't underestimate what quality means and and it shows, you know. Uh it's one of those things where sure Iron Heart's got this great twist at the end and this cliffhanger, but it really wasn't that good of a show. And it it had I I'm sure it has his audience, like all of them have their audience, but if they are if they're dumbed down and they're made for a very specific core group of people, then you're going to lose your normal watchers. And why I say that is because there is so much television today to watch with all the streaming services and the streaming shows. There is so much to watch that if me personally, I would have to just only really like superhero movies and Marvel stuff in order to dedicate the kind of time that it requires for me to watch multiple seasons of these shows. You know, it took me forever to get caught up on Daredevil, you know, and from the Netflix one. And that that honestly, I really do think that that's only got a second season of Born Again or Born Again in General happened because of the following that came out of the Netflix show. If there wasn't a following there, that would have been a one and done as well on Disney Plus. Um, that's where these shows I think have failed. When there's things out there like you know, Yellowstone spin-offs, Land Man, The Pit. I mean, you're talking some real quality, good shows that adults like me and you and our mother love to watch. And I'm not gonna watch Iron Heart season two before I watch the next episode of the pit. And if that means, you know, at 10 o'clock at night, that's my true choices, Iron Heart takes a back seat, and it might be a week or so before I get to it, if I get to it at all. So that's where they're there. If it's quality, we'll be there. And Loki, no matter what everybody says about Loki, it was quality, it was real good. You know, there those scenes between him and Morbius are amazing, the conversations. That writing that's there that captures you. We'll talk about this when we get into Born Again today. Because that has some of that with for me. That writing that's there and it captures that essence of what's going on. If it's there, I'll come watch it. If it's not, then I got better things I can watch right now, unfortunately. Their competition is so tough where you know we can move right into the next one when it comes on the Punisher. You know, they they should be more like this one. If if you don't have something that you think is gonna be a knockout of the park quality-wise, then just give us an hour and a half special of this character and don't do these seasons anymore. To me, this is what Disney Plus Marvel stuff should be is a Punisher hour and a half special of a story of his that probably will have nothing to do with anything that we see in the future. And and if it does, you know, it'll be cool for the people that saw it. But if you see him in Spider-Man and in other movies, you don't have to see this in order to see it. Kind of like the Guardians of the Galaxy Christmas special, other than finding out that you know Mantis is his sister. Is that really a pivotal moment in Guardians 3? Not at all. You don't even think about it. In fact, when they even say it, they always talk about being family, so you can always take it as, oh yeah, you're my sister, like we're all family because we're all groove. So you whatever happened in that Christmas special didn't mean anything when it comes down to the movies. That's how these should be handled more, anyways. So to me, it's like Wonder Man's Great, it's gonna get a season two. I'd rather seen an hour-long special of this character, and then maybe look, we'll do another one because you liked it. That's what a lot of those other shows could have done better as. And like with the Punisher, I'm excited for this. Like, he's not my favorite Punisher, but he's my second favorite because there's no other really good ones after him and Thomas Jane. What I don't like about Burenthal's Punisher is he's too emotional, which I know is kind of a hard argument because if you're making a long extended show, like they're obviously trying to do or extensions of him, because they don't quite have enough with him to make a continuing on show. I mean, they did a show for him on its own, but they kind of realized it was only gonna do good on its own, so that's why they're doing this because they know a season two wasn't gonna happen, but he's likable enough to we can do an hour-long thing of him, though, and that's what we're getting. That's and I think that's why they also chose to bring him into the movies because his time on the shows are getting a little redundant, and it's gonna be okay, he can't do a show on his own, he's only gonna be able to be in these other shows so many times before it doesn't make sense, so let's start putting him in the movies, which is fine because that's where I think he should be, anyways, is the movies. Um, he's just too emotional for me. I I like my Frank Castle is a Frank Castle that's all those emotions were gone when his family was killed. This talking to him and him feeling like you know he's going through some PTSD thing that can be changed and fixed, I think is is I think it's a good message. And I'm not saying it shouldn't be a message Marvel should talk about because we should, but my punisher is he's gone. He's this is gonna be his fate. His fate is I'm gonna kill everybody that was involved in that. I'm gonna start killing everybody that's doing a little bad stuff, and we'll team up only when it suits what I'm trying to do. Because in the end, you're not gonna stop me from being the guy that's gonna kill bad guys. And I don't get that from the Burenthal guy. I get a lot of you know, hesitations and I get a lot of that inside dealing with it when my punisher has dealt with it and he's made a choice. That's why I like the Thomas Jane one because he's so to the fact of almost almost melodrama in that sense of like you're monotone and you're just a murderer. It's like, yep, because that's who the punisher is, there's no mercy with him. Burnthal brings that to the table, but it's still kind of like uh get a little whiny sometimes, you know. And that that that bugs me a little, but I'll still watch it because the action's awesome and he's great in it, and I'm I'm excited for that. I'll watch that. Um, and that would be one I would turn on over other shows. But that, like I said, to me, that's where the direction of the Disney Plus really should start going, anyways, is these one or one or even two hour specials. Just at lower budgets with these lower characters to have a good time with them. I think that'd be fun. How do you feel about the Punisher coming?

SPEAKER_02 16:06

So I'll full disclosure for me for The Punisher. I have not watched a Netflix show Punisher. I know I think he had two seasons, uh, did very well on that. I couldn't remember the second one. Yeah, um, and I have not watched the older Punisher films that came out. So I'm going based off of pure interest for me. Punisher as a character, even in the comics, he was too dark for me. He was he was one of those characters where I was like, you know, if I want to have a dark superhero, anti-hero type person, I go over to DC because they have a plethora of them. So for Marvel, I don't think of them that way. So I never was drawn to Punisher to even be intrigued enough to watch his stuff until the Netflix Daredevil season two intro of Punisher when they brought him in. I I and again, full disclosure, I haven't watched the Cassidy version of Punisher, so and I'm not as much of a Punisher fan, so you might have a little more um in tune to how he actually is supposed to be type thing. But for a new person trying to bring in a new audience, a fan base, I like John Bernthal as the Punisher to the point where I was shocked he was my standout favorite in season two and season two introduced Electra of the original Daredevil show. And I loved her like amazingly amazingly, but I will say that I John Bernthal, that his his character intrigued me enough to want to learn more about the Punisher. That's right. With his family dying and he's becoming the Punisher type thing and the anti-hero, so to speak. But uh they added enough of that to make it where it is the punisher. You're not watching a separate character, but maybe they ablibbed a little bit on his emotional state of things. Maybe they wanted to do it too, send a message to say, hey, people really do suffer PTSD. This is how a fictional comic book character is gonna deal with it, but don't do that.

SPEAKER_00 18:23

Well, to be fair, the comics do talk about the he is being comic accurate. It's when we watch the 2004 Punisher with Thomas Jane, you will you will be in shock the difference of that Punisher to this one, and you'll probably see why I do like that one more. But this one is for the MCU, this is the better, the better direction. It's just for me personally, when it comes on to looking forward to this, I kind of already know what we're getting into. So it's kind of like, okay, it's gonna get emotional, but gonna, I'm gonna feel like some of these beats have been talked already about. When the old like the my favorite version of him, he's so on the edge of like just being the bad guy that he's unpredictable. Where you're kind of like, Oh, you don't don't turn your back on this guy. Like, if you're a good person, you're fine, but if you're not, he's he's he's dangerous, you know. And this one doesn't feel that way, he doesn't he doesn't feel unpredictable to me, which is fine, but that's the other one's a lot, it's just a lot more violent and more like deep. I mean, he will the Thomas Jane version will get you to do things in your own life to ruin your life before he even kills you. But he almost wants to not just see you dead, he wants to see that you understand why it's happening when this guy is just gonna correct things and be there to help people, which is fine because that's the majority of the comics, is what we're seeing now. But the Thomas Jane one will set people up to make them destroy their own life just to like you know, it's it's a more of a revenge than it is, it's not good enough to just kill, kind of thing. And and you'll see what I mean when when we do get to that and how different that is.

SPEAKER_02 20:04

That I like how you phrase that because it took it it reminds me of Punisher, just there to punish, not just yeah, I I get it.

SPEAKER_00 20:13

You're gonna reap what you sell. You're not just gonna die, you're gonna know why you're dying for sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:19

Well, I'm excited, I because I do like this Punisher. I'm I will sometime go through and watch the Netflix show since it's on Disney Plus those two seasons. Um, I I like Karen Page, and I know she's in the first season of Punisher because she had a lot to do with his character in the Daredevil show. So I I definitely want to see uh the show and to see more of John Bernerthal's version of him, especially now that we're gonna get him in Spider-Man. He's already appeared a couple times in Born Again. Um, so yeah, we're this Frank Castle that we have here is enough of a favorite for Marvel, he's gonna stay. So I want to learn more about him if we're gonna see him more. But I'm excited that I heard that Punisher was gonna have a special, like we've been talking about it, I think, in the community for like years now, the work he's gonna have it. John Berthel's been saying, Oh, yeah, it's in the works, it's in the works, it's in the works. I didn't realize how much he actually had as an actor, uh, part of producing and writing some of the show. And I I I have I don't know if uh how to say this properly, but whenever I hear of an actor or a talent saying that they're doing stuff in the project that they're working on on a different level than is just their acting and their talentability type thing, the main talent, why they were hired to begin with, and we're gonna talk about that when we get to the Incredible Hulk. Um, yeah, that whenever I hear that they're doing stuff to it and they're integral in how it's being done, I I have like this 50 50 feeling of it's either gonna be really good, like he really loves the character that much, he wants to be involved in seeing him done right, or it's gonna Be oh, this is not my show just because I'm the actor, and you have to pay me to be on screen. And if I'm not there, production can't go on. So I'm gonna demand this, this, and this. I get that. We're and we see some actors in Hollywood that do this stuff, and we're not gonna name names at the moment, but we're gonna get to one soon that has a reputation at least of doing this before. So it's not um it's very plausible that he actually did some of the things we'll talk about. But um, you see them when they get I love it when an actor can broaden their talents and their abilities to maybe become like Scarlett Johansson, the producer on something, or you know, maybe they could eventually be like Angeline Jolie and start directing something. Like I I like that stuff, but I don't like it when one, it's personal to me when it's comics, to be honest, yeah, just because of that ownership quality that we as fans have, number one, but number two, um when they have a tendency to become the bigger ego of the movie, and then it it changes the narrative of what the film's supposed to be into something what they prefer, whether that's good or bad. And sometimes, like in Deadpool's favor, it kind of works out a little bit, but sometimes, like we're gonna talk about in this film, it it causes enough tension that people are like, maybe we'll just not do this, you know.

SPEAKER_00 23:18

But yeah, you're talking about a Hollywood 2 that's different than before. There's a time when even if you were an A-class actor, you needed to go look for these projects and try to get them. Now we live in a time where you know there the studios are bringing projects to actors. I mean, I love Leonardo DiCaprio. I'm I'll I'll name some names, but I don't think he's had to audition probably in the last 20 or 30 years. In fact, there's a famous story that he didn't even want to audition for Titanic, and that was back in the beginning times, where he almost lost that role because James Cameron said, Oh no, you're gonna audition. I'm not gonna make this some $100 million movie on someone, I don't know if they can do it or not. And he almost didn't do it. And and it ended up being great because he did the audition and he was great for the role. But that that's kind of the and I'm not saying it's not a diss on Leo, it's a diss on the system itself, where before it was a hey, I don't care that you were awesome in the last movie you did. If you want to do another one, you gotta bring what you got to the table. And we live in a time now where they have a lot more say. Now, if you have, I know Burnshaw has um some producing rights to this, so in that makes me think then he could have some say in what the character does. I mean, we also gotta remember, folks, you're talking the jobs of these people behind the scenes, like as a producer, they don't really have a lot to say when it comes down to uh what the movie's gonna look like or how it's gonna be. Their job is to make sure the movie can be made, right? They're the ones helping and be in the forefront of the money being pushed with maybe the help of being part of the creative team. Ultimately, your creative team, what you see on screen, there's three people, arguably four, but there's three departments that's the most important, and that's the director, and that's gonna be your actors, obviously, because they're the ones on screen, and it's gonna be your editors, and then you could say the writers. I think the writers should be higher up because without writers, we wouldn't have what we got, but they writers get pushed around a lot, as we've seen in a lot of these, you know, lots of times we see the union and all that have trouble. But you know, your director and your editor, and you could have two different movies if you got the wrong editor. You know, that's why when you go look at your favorite movies, you look at movies that consistently do well, guys like Scorstasi's or Steven Spielberg, take a look at who's worked with them on them. And almost nine chances out of ten, the majority of their films are the same editors, the same producers, the same cinematographers. Christopher Nolan's a great example. It's like he's got a crew that he hires every single time when he does his movies. It might change here and there, but I think the editor on his movies has been the same editor since his first movie. So, but what has his movies been? Super successful. So they found a combination of I know what I want to see on screen. This person knows how to edit it to what my vision is, and that's what we get. Because lots of times we'll see like David Ayre's a great example with a suicide squad. What he saw didn't look bad, but what we got in the editing looked like crap, and that's kind of the problem we have with some of these. But to go with what you say, I am also of that. It's 50-50. When you hear of an actor that takes too much charge, it's like okay, slow down, you know, but at the same time, maybe it's not. You know, Arnold Schwarzenegger's a famous story when he did Terminator. He told James Cameron that I don't think a machine would say, I'll be back. I think a machine would say, I will be back, because they wouldn't shorten the words. And Cameron turned to him and says, You worry about acting, I'll worry about writing. And Arnold's like, All right. And then look, that's like the most famous line that ever came out of Arnold's mouth. So Cameron was right, and there could be times where Arnold would have been right. I think a lot of it is who you're working with. If it's super collaborative, that's cool. Some guys make great movies like that. Iron Man One, like we just talked about. That was so collaborative, they're writing it the day of.

SPEAKER_02 27:16

Yeah, talk about the writers being lower tier, be like they were scrambling every day. Yeah, every day.

SPEAKER_00 27:21

What are we doing? Right.

SPEAKER_02 27:22

Here's an outline of this of the scene. Yeah, have fun, Gweneth and Robert.

SPEAKER_00 27:27

Then you got your Christopher Nolan's or your your uh um Quentin Tarantino's or Guy Richie's, you know, uh all those guys. They're they're kind of they're gonna be like, listen, you know, I want you to do what's on page, you know, and this, yeah, maybe we'll try a couple different lines and they'll do that for fun, but ultimately they're they want it stuck right to what it is, and those guys tend to be right most of the time. It all depends on who's working, you know. And yeah, but yeah, it is it's disconcerting though when you find out that that's part of the problem because it also means there's a power struggle going on, right? Which we'll see that there was even more so behind the scenes than just the actor when it comes down to power struggle for Marvel in particular, but also like DC.

SPEAKER_02 28:12

I'm sure a lot of DC fans that if they're listening to this and watching this, I have your back on this too. That these characters in particular are written such a way um that drew enough of a fan base for these type of studios to say we're gonna do stuff now with them, type thing. Yeah, that it's like just uh I I just pray that if any of the actors do want to get into those creative positions on movies like these, then maybe we should um uh we should hope that they like the characters enough that they are like the fans, they want to see that adaptation of it.

SPEAKER_00 28:48

Yes, yeah, I agree, I agree.

SPEAKER_02 28:56

Um honestly, I I'm a little bit oblivious, yeah, to uh these um these types of things when they happen. I mean, like when when you hear that oh it broke a record, be like, oh, that's cool, that's good for the movie type thing. But when I found out um and pulling up this information for the podcast, so this is this is an industry-wide record breaking, and this isn't even Spider-Man's biggest movie, arguably yet, because it's not out yet. No way home was. So I would have thought that would have broken all those records, but what are your thoughts?

SPEAKER_00 29:35

I think it just speaks to one thing that Spider-Man's hot right now, man. Like it's we we have the right things going. I've heard some hot takes online from other people that talk and that they don't care for this version of Spider-Man and they haven't for a while. And I don't know what their problem is. I think it's great. I mean, what uh what I've liked, what they did about it is bringing in the other Spider-Man kind of made it part of the same universe. So but yeah, this I think this just speaks to this is a movie everyone wants. You can take your kids to this movie, you know, but you could also go see this movie because Spider-Man right now is really cool and he's awesome and he's fun. And and truthfully, this trailer for a teaser, basically, right? We'd say it's a teaser, it's the first one, right? Of I'm pretty sure it's the first trailer. Yeah, at the very least. If this is the like the official first trailer, this is the first teaser.

SPEAKER_02 30:29

I mean, but it's packed full of like, look at that, what is this? Holy cow. The yeah, the problem with their teaser trailers is they look just like regular trailers to me. So it's like it's not really a tease anymore. It's you're you're getting a meal.

SPEAKER_00 30:42

Sometimes I see trailers like this one, and I'm almost like, don't even do another one. Just let us come into like blind, as blind as can be. You gave us a sneak peek, that's a perfect one. Now, often that happens where I'm kind of like, okay, that first trailer was so good that we you know it's coming. I mean, it's Spider-Man guys, we know what we're getting into. You know, everyone that says, Yeah, but what's the story? It's Spider-Man, you know. It's like if we give you much more of the story, it's we're almost gonna give you the whole movie. Exactly. Yeah, so just go watch it. It's like with the Mortal Kombat one. I don't want to see any more Mortal Kombat stuff either. You know, that new trailer just came out, was that's it, it's all I want. Anything more than that, I might feel like it's too much. You know, I can't wait for that either. I'm more hype for that. I mean, Spider-Man and that are like right up there equal for me when it comes down to like I need to see that movie. Yeah, but I also like the last one a lot more than the majority of people out there, so but you know, yeah, I think it just speaks to uh the popularity of this character. Um, I hope Tom sticks it out for as long as he wants. I know he doesn't want to get typecast, but I think it's a little too late. You know, I think we're gonna see him do some great stuff in the Odyssey and moving forward with others as he gets older. I think he's gonna do other things that are great. But man, just be Spider-Man. Be yeah, be thankful that you got a part that and everybody, when you look at the records, buddy, they want to see you. You know, it's like there's people that would be dying to be in your situation. And I know with fame and all that, there's a downside, but you know, I be be grateful for it. You know, take take Hugh Jackman as good advice when you're just uh life advice-wise. You're never gonna hear him say he wished he never played Wolverine. You know, he knows that Wolverine made him, and he's probably gonna go out on Wolverine. Yeah, you'll if we'll get an old man Logan when he's 70. I bet you a million dollars. Yeah, yeah, until he's 90. Like he will be Clint Eastwood's age, sitting there as old man Logan. They'll do a let's do another old man version of it, and he'll do it because he loves the character and he knows that that gave him. I mean, Tom, you've done great stuff. I I like a lot of the stuff outside of what you've done. Spider-Man, other people don't, I do. But man, great is this part. I want to see a 40-year-old Spider-Man teaching a younger kid. I want that. I'm down for something like that.

SPEAKER_02 32:56

So, yeah, yeah, no, I agree. And yeah, uh, Tom is he's really young still. He's younger than me, and he's he's got um a big life still to lead when it comes to all the other acting gigs he's gonna get. If anything, Spider-Man just continues to raise his profile as he's an actor who could do his own movie, like demanding. You know how many actors again to Hollywood that it takes them years before they become from that C actor to a B actor to from a background character to all of a sudden um the what will they call like a co-star to all of a sudden become the main star. Yeah, not everyone could just do it just like that type thing. Some of them even have to do it because their parents were in it. There you go. You you got in there. So, Tom, you you're doing great, man. Um, keep up with it. And I like that you enjoy being Spider-Man because we as fans, we enjoy seeing you as Spider-Man. You're always gonna get us to come to your movie. And so just um embrace that. That's that's a unique quality you can have as an actor, that there is one character that was written long time ago that you fit to a T and it's almost like you live by example with it, and that's kind of cool to see that um I don't want you to ever feel like that. Oh, I can't be at Spider-Man for the rest of my life. Be like, well, is that such a bad thing? Yeah, I mean, look at you. Spider Man's pretty cool.

SPEAKER_00 34:15

He's gonna be 90-year-old magneto, and he's still gonna kick a lot of heads.

SPEAKER_02 34:18

So he'll be okay. Yes. Well, to move on from that, guys, we're gonna talk about the first episode of Daredevil Born Again, season two, episode one. Now, Marvel had a quick uh change in their schedule from the last time we filmed the podcast because we announced at that time, oh, they're gonna do the first two episodes, which that's what everyone believed. Until, like, I want to say within like 24 hours of the first episode premiering, they're like, wait a minute, we're gonna give you all the episode titles. We're revealing that the first episode is only tonight on that on Tuesday, and that the next two episodes are gonna be one night the following week, which is kind of abnormal, but I'm sure they're playing something up with it, and then announced the Punisher at the very end. So they they had this whole schedule change. So um, we were able to watch the first episode of this uh a couple nights ago. Um, at least for me, it was a couple nights ago. I've tried rewatching it a couple of times in the midst of my day here or there, just to keep it fresh in my brain. Um, the only thing that I'm gonna say is I love seeing Daredevil back. Like that's the first thing I'm gonna say, I should say. I love seeing him back. I think Charlie Cox has cast great as Matt Murdock. Sorry, Ben Affleck. You did good for the movie at that time, but you're much better at Batman, anyways. Um way better. There's my hot take, I guess I'll say about Batman. No, I think everybody feels it.

SPEAKER_00 35:40

Yeah, I give him a lot of credit. He did okay with Daredevil, but man, he's one of my favorite Batman, that's for sure. He's really good at Bruce Wayne's.

SPEAKER_02 35:47

I just want a whole movie of his. So bad. The Batflick. Oh my gosh. Yeah, please. Anyways, um, yeah, so uh Charlie Cox, he embodies Matt Murdoch so well. You could tell how much he's loved the character because even after the the show on Netflix was wildly successful, after that was canceled, and they had to wait for legal reasons for like three, four years or something, and he still was pushing for a reboot and they got it. And that first season, I know some people would say, Oh, it's a little slow for the born again jumping back into it. But remember, you're jumping back into it. There was a specific story that they wanted to tell with Matt Murdoch of what's happened since season three, which, if you don't remember, season three of Daredevil, a lot of crap went down, and it was so good, anyways. Um, and I love that Disney's um uh Marvel and studios in particular is recognizing that that was just a good, good show. Why are we gonna try to remake that into something else with the same actors? Like they had all the pieces right there, just brainbag the same people who did that, and you're just gonna continue the success, and they're doing that. Um, that was no different. I love this black suit in this episode. Yeah, me too. You finally get to see the D D on it, and it just it looks so cool. And the suit looks very unique because it almost looks like it's his red suit that they spray painted black, because as you can see in some of the fight scenes, you see the wear and tear, and the red starts showing up, which creates this cool color on it. So it's so cool. Um, oh, by the way, spoilers, spoiler alert. Sorry I didn't say that in the beginning, but at this point, if you've seen that we're gonna review that and we're gonna talk about it, just we're gonna get into some spoilers here. But what I've said so far is nothing new. You saw the black suit in the trailers, so now we're definitely getting to spoilers. That first scene reminds me of all of the Netflix action pack scenes they've done, and it was so daredevil good.

SPEAKER_00 37:49

Yeah, I agree. They definitely took all the best of what they've done with this character, and and I'd even say in season one as well of Born Again, and they they're they know now what they're doing with it. I often wonder if they w could have gone back in time and been like, okay, it's good, they couldn't have just done Born Again from the start, right? Yeah. But it's okay to go through those, all the other stuff, you know. Uh yeah, no, he looked great. The the action is fantastic. I love the gritty, low budget crime feel of it. You can tell this show doesn't cost a lot to make. And that's actually something that helps it a lot. Because it really makes you feel like, okay, you're there with it. It's this is realistic, you know. I enjoy that part of it for sure.

SPEAKER_02 38:34

Yeah, no, I I agree. I that's a good that's a good point to bring up there. Because sometimes when nowadays when you think of Marvel, you think of some of that supernatural type stuff, the superpowers and all that. And I even have a friend who says, Oh, Daredevil really doesn't have an an ability, so I don't consider him a superhero. But yeah, for for people who think that way or anything, doesn't have an ability. Yeah, yeah. I mean your friend needs to rewatch it then.

SPEAKER_00 38:58

I mean, I don't think many blind people got sonar. Yeah. Sorry, guy. Just because I understand this is a little different in the show, but it's not people are honing in people's heartbeats like Daredevil is like there's something to him that's very different than and like we see in this episode, he layers all the sound and noise around him from miles away.

SPEAKER_02 39:20

He's able to layer and figure out what it is and what is closest to him and what's more important for him to go and do his yeah, there's an unspoken mutation there for sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But uh no, I I I agree. I would I would say though that I love seeing a grounded superhero movie. I think that's one reason why in the the CW for DC, Arrow took off as well as it did because he's yeah, he's just a guy who's ball and arrow, but he has such a great story and it was told so well that it started off their whole their whole little um oh their version of their multiverse there of all the DC stuff on TV. And I think that um uh Daredevil, he doesn't need that bigger budget because it really is your basic bare knuckles crime fighting and solving and trying to take down a guy who's becoming politically ambitious, who's a really bad guy, and things like that. That you didn't need some of the supernatural stuff in it to make it good, it just was really good storytelling. Yeah, that's what Daredevil is. And so I love that. Um, some the the characters of return, I was shocked how much Karen Page is actually in this first episode, and it sounds like she's gonna be a big regular for the next season because she was one of my favorite characters in the first uh original uh Daredevil show and on Netflix for those three seasons. I I thought she was at times she's a little bit whiny, but I think her character is supposed to be that way. So uh, but I I love that she's in this, she's one of my favorite characters, so cool to see.

SPEAKER_00 40:51

I struggle with her. Um, it's the actress, unfortunately, and that that's gonna be just a taste thing, but it's sometimes I don't believe her, you know. I don't know. Sometimes she comes off as okay, you need to just calm down and shut up, and then uh but I get it, and maybe there is a reason for that, and maybe that's kind of the character because I would can say the same thing about Kirsten Dunst in the the first Spider-Man sequels. I couldn't stand her at all. It's you know, it's it's or or another great example is uh in Batman, his love interest. What's your name? Rachel. Yeah, Rachel. Okay, Rachel. You want him Batman, you don't want him to be Batman. If he's not Batman, you're not gonna be with him anyway, and this and that. It's like he's just just shut it up. You know, it's like it's like I want I don't want you to be Spider-Man anymore. Why don't you want to date Spider-Man? Get out of here, you know. It's like, and I'm not saying that's her problem, but sometimes I feel that with her, where it's like, okay, you just you can kind of calculate the next time she's gonna have an issue with something or or be in a problem with when it comes down to their you know uh their characters and how they interact with each other. But but no, she's great, and I think that what we got in this first episode is as long as we keep it this, I'm gonna be happy with it. Yeah. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:06

Yeah, I'm excited to see what they're gonna do. Some of the characters from the first season of Born Again, that I wasn't really too into like his his therapist that he was dating type thing. Yeah, I do like the twist they did with her in this season. So it makes me really intrigued to see what they're gonna do with that character that now she's full on board with Wilson Fisk and doing base. It's very uh when you think about like a political aspect, the dynamics of it is this is really cool and interesting. I wouldn't say cool as in like, oh, I want to be part of it, more of cool as in experiencing it and watching it type thing. Right. Um where she's now basically the head therapist or psychologist for these um mass vigilantes that they capture, and her questioning and the way she's going about asking them and telling them we're gonna do what we're gonna do to you type thing, makes it almost like they're playing the system enough where oh, we're giving you due process, but it's in our favor always, no matter what, type thing. So it's I'm curious to see how long she as a character is gonna sustain that if she really is a good guy that's just in the brush of it all, but um and so what what were your thoughts on her as that character in particular?

SPEAKER_00 43:26

I'm fine with it, I like it. Um I've been I have an overall issue with the show that is kind of broad when it comes down to um the majority of these kind of shows, and it's not just Marvel stuff, it it's the TV show formula that I struggle with. Um, where I'm not as so invested in that character because that character feels uh rehashed or maybe that's the wrong word, but I think it feels uh redundant. I think these shows, when I say these shows, I'm talking the majority of TV shows out. There um have an issue with introducing characters, having a neat story, and then letting them go because they tend not to let them go. There's often okay, well, what can we do to twist this and twist that? So the problem with the that I have with these kind of TV shows is they they have a lot of redundancy with their characters, and they don't they tend to introduce people, put them in a really unique situation, and then oh, let's give it a twist because they're gonna be around for a while. And I'm not a fan of that. Uh, because it's like don't be afraid to introduce a character and have a unique story, and then they're just gone, you know. My favorite shows are what I tend to for my taste-wise, is I like the ones that take those chances where why couldn't she have just been that character to him for a while? And then why does she have to still be here? You know because now we're gonna overcomplicate this whole thing. Because my problem with Daredevil is there's a lot of stuff going on, like there's a lot of characters and a lot of things. You know, I like that bullseye is is he a good guy? Is he a bad guy? Clearly, he's kind of got his own agenda, and it just you just you fall under whatever category that is of the day for him. You know, it kind of saves Daredevil's butt in this one, yeah. With his identity at least, you know, for sure. Like that kind of was out of nowhere.

SPEAKER_02 45:19

What a cliffhanger for that.

SPEAKER_00 45:20

Yeah, it's good, but at the same time, it kind of makes me go, uh, you know, I don't know. It's like so we're gonna reuse this character now in a way, and you know, don't be afraid to do these things. I think the born-again guys needed whatever they got for this season, they got already in the can. But I think if they're gonna move forward, they need to go look at like what DC did with the penguin. And spoil alert, but you introduce a character in the penguin that he befriends and becomes his partner and his friend the whole time, and at the end, penguin still kills him. And you're like, Whoa, what's that mean for more? It's like, well, it just means another character coming, a new one. And that to me is way more exciting, you know. That's something I liked about what Game of Thrones kind of had for it was anybody could die at any time, which you know, after a while you realize that's not necessarily true, but they weren't afraid to, you know, if we're gonna go a different direction, we're gonna go a different direction quick. And I like that, you know. There's a show called The Shield back when I was a kid. Uh, and they weren't afraid to just, you know what, we're just gonna introduce a character. And guess what? That character's not gonna amount to much, but he's got this specific spot to tell his story because that's part of the story, and I think that this show needs that because I don't I have a hard time caring about the stakes because it feels like well, don't worry, in the end, folks, his identity is gonna be safe, he's gonna win, or still be alive, not just gonna kill him, he's not gonna kill Fisk, you know? Like, we know that's not gonna happen, maybe, but that's just it. If you saw it, could you be like, Whoo, this could be really interesting. Because I struggle watching this, it's a half hour long, and there's moments where I'm kind of like bored, and I'm like, okay, okay. And then what this show has going for it though is the acting and the characters are good, so then a moment of tension or something happening will kind of like pull me in of it. Oh wow, that's really good, you know. And but then it's like it goes into like okay, boring, boring, boring. Oh, here we are. This is the meat of it. Okay, boring, boring, boring. When you know, I'm gonna remember plot points of these series when my favorite show is I remember full episodes, and that's something Daredevil's failing for me to have. I can't think of one full episode of Daredevil where from beginning to end, I was like, that was the best thing I've seen on this show ever. I can think of scenes that are fantastic in the show. I mean, some of the best between him and Frank was that whole argument they had about when after Foggy died, you know, and and Frank's calling him out on him being a vigilante. Fantastic scene in a whole episode that's got not a lot going on, right? Or that doesn't really that's not as energetic, you know. I can tell you the very beginning, opening, and the very ending in the middle of the very first episode of the Shield because of how inventive and how un uh unpredictable it was. And that show for 90 episodes stayed that way. You know, and there's other shows that's just a great example, but and that's the best one I can come up with right now. I mean, there's others Game of Thrones is another good example where it's it's just like there's there's episodes of that show that I I could tell you from the beginning to end are great. This show's got right now, it's got moments of seasons. And I'm not saying it can't be great, I'm not saying it's not great, I'm not saying it's not worth watching. Watch it, it's fun, it's a good watch. You know, and and if it was an hour long though, I'd be watching something else before it. That's but because it is a half hour, it's a little easier for me to throw on because I think they're well, they're close to an hour, they're about 45 minutes, 25 minutes. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. But yeah, sometimes they're a little shorter, right? I mean, was this this first one was a little well, it's almost an hour, right?

unknown 49:06

I can't.

SPEAKER_00 49:07

I have the little bit of it. It was pretty close. I I felt like it was a lot shorter than than I expected to be, but but maybe the pacing is good. The pacing's good, that helps. Yeah, because like that it doesn't make it feel long, which is good. So in a good show will do that. So like I said, I'm not I'm not, yeah, I'm not saying it's a bad show, folks. I'm not saying you shouldn't watch it. I'm just giving you my two cents on it, where I do feel like it could lose me quick if it just keeps getting redundant. Like, let's get crazy. You know, when they killed Foggy, I thought that was one of the best things they did because it was taking a character everybody likes, character close to the character to our to our main character, and kill him. Yeah, good, you know. It's like I'm not not that I'm glad the guy's dead, but it's just good because it makes for a better story, you know. Yeah, and and we're we are in this really weird area where Fisk is clearly a bad guy in front of everybody. He's not even afraid to just be a corrupt piece of crap, you know, and everyone now knows it, really. I mean, yeah, he's tricking a lot of the main general population to vote for him and all that, but everybody that gets to know him knows that this dude's up to no good.

SPEAKER_02 50:12

Yeah. Well, you see in this episode, uh, one of the things they brought on from the first season of Born Again to Now is those little um uh what BB Urich, the um the independent journalist type clip art that she's doing, the the the clips of getting the real voice of New York City. But you notice in this um in this first episode that she is almost like propaganda, propagandizing. I don't know, I said that word wrong. It's good. Anyways, using this propaganda for the mayor Fisk and his administration, yeah, what he wants to do and stuff like that, which uh you ask it's the same thing in real life. You go down the street and you ask one person and maybe viewing life or the political aspect in one way, how's it going to you? Yeah, oh, this is crap, I hate everything, blah blah blah. You ask someone else that has a different mindset. Oh, it's nothing but roses, and everything is so good, yay! You know, so it's it's just part of the good example when you watch this episode of those clips, and then the the other clips that they're showing of what Fisk is really doing, but they're using an anonymous mask thing, and they're yeah, it'll make it look like it's a Wilson Fist, but it's not Wilson Fist, obviously, you know, things like that. Um, it's really it's interesting to see how we as an audience are watching how they're propagandicizing. I said the word again. Um whose side are you on type of thing. What is the what is not the rose colored glasses? What is really what's going on? Yeah. Yeah. And I think that when you get in power, you can make things look as good as you want them to make them look. But if something is rotten, it's always gonna come up. And I think that that's a theme we're gonna see in this season is that Wilson Fisk can only go so long with making it look like New York City has a new, new fresh color paint. But if the things are rotten underneath it, it's gonna start peeking through. Right, and that's gonna be part of Matt Murdoch, not Daredevil, but yeah, that's one of the things I like about Daredevil is that Matt Murdoch is a lawyer going up against Fisk, but Daredevil is a vigilante going up against Fisk, attacking him on both fronts, which Fisk has this unique position of needing to be attacked on both fronts like that. Yeah, and now with this new character, Matthew Lillard, who great addition, yeah, great, yeah, great addition. Oh, great guy. I met him at Comic-Con a couple years ago. He's just really cool to talk to and just just to be around, you know. He's one of those actors that actually wants to be around it. Yeah, yeah, he cares about his fans, yeah. Exactly, yes, yeah. Um, and he uh his character, I I don't think we really get a full picture. I don't even know if we get a full name of who the character is, to be honest yet, but I might have missed that. We what we do know is he has a direct line in DC to Julia Louis Dreyfus's character, Valentina Allegra de Fontaine, that um immediately tied that into the MCU and what we saw in Thunderbolts. And from my understanding, I believe Daredevil Born Again Season 2 is taking place around the same time that Thunderbolts movie is taking place in the MCU. Um, there is um out there on online um real detailed, very excellent nerds, and I say that affectionately because I do love watching all your content, but we're all in the same nerd boat, okay? Just some of us are different colors. Yeah. Um they were able to break down exactly where um this show is lining up in the MCU timeline, because that does become a little important when you get to like Avengers movies and see where are people at, what's the scope of New York City, because we saw New York City in the Thunderbolts movie, and we didn't it didn't look like it was under martial law, which was at the end of Born Again Season One when Willis and Fist put everything under martial law, meaning curfews, meaning all bunches of crazy stuff. Um, and so we were like, well, where does this movie and this show then take place? It turns out they're kind of incongruent. So by the time Born Again Season Two is done, theoretically, from my understanding, is when Thunderbolts, the end of Thunderbolts happens. So then martial law we're assuming is not gonna be in effect, but even then, there's nothing that's um detrimental to watch Born Again to see Thunderbolts and vice versa. They really have kept them separate, which is good. I don't like it when they intertwine them too much because we've talked about that before, where you you have to watch one in order to watch the other. It doesn't look like they've done that with this, but I like that they compliment each other.

SPEAKER_00 54:46

Well, they can fix this problem if they just told us. That's true, but they can't even tell us. They're all like, well, some of it does, and maybe we're not sure yet. You know, no, but you know, moving forward, it's not. But moving forward after the next four things we do, communication is key. It's like just make up your mind up. It's these either are in the same universe or they're not. Yep. If they are, we'll pay attention and you make sure your continuity is straight and we'll be good. If they're not, then we'll still watch them because we still want to see them. But just let us know that because I mean, Spider-Man's not gonna mention at all about this. He falls under this vigilante issue they have, but it's not gonna they're not gonna talk about him in the show. Yeah, you know, it's like okay, you can mention his name.

SPEAKER_02 55:30

I know there's a rights thing where they're they're not supposed to do so much with like interconnecting the shows because he's not supposed to be in the show. I mean, the most we got don't do it. The most we got in Born Again Season One was the first episode when he mentioned spider people or spider something like they're afraid to say like the mutant word, the M word, don't say mute because it's gonna mean like come on, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 55:56

Anyway, they just gotta make up their mind, they gotta figure out what they're gonna do with it, and if they don't have their rights, then then then do what you have to do with it at the time, right? Yeah, but it's that that's that's where I struggle with the but you are right for the most part. You don't it doesn't really if you can block that out a little bit, okay. I can block it out a bit, you know.

SPEAKER_02 56:15

One thing that I'll put I'm putting these pieces together, maybe it's me being optimistic as a fan and trying to keep this all connected and logical, in my opinion. Yeah, yeah, is that um Spider-Man is kind of like what Wilson Fisk would deem as a anti or no a vigilante. For sure. But sounds like what they're doing in the Spider-Man movies, there are so many different things going on, like villains or people like the Punisher that are in there and all that stuff that you're creating. New York City isn't Spider-Man's home only type thing. So I could see where they don't have to mention him so often, although he arguably is one of the biggest names in New York City, it's kind of hard to miss it.

SPEAKER_00 56:57

But I'll tell you what, what the MCU has done perfectly though, with their shows and their movies, is don't live in New York City. Because it all goes to crap there. I mean, with Fisk in charge, with alien invasions, with all the bad guys from Spider-Man, just don't live in New York City. Yeah, the phone holes. So I'm gonna live, I'm gonna live out in Utah somewhere in the mountains, and I'll watch all this on TV.

SPEAKER_02 57:21

Texas are looking pretty bad.

SPEAKER_00 57:23

Yeah, yeah. Stay out of New York.

SPEAKER_02 57:28

Oh, geez, yeah, that's true. Poor New York City. That that always gets it. It always gets it both in fiction and in real life. It always gets it. Yeah, yeah. Anyways, um, so anything else you want to add to this episode?

SPEAKER_00 57:41

No, I'm looking forward to the next one, and the next one is gonna be the double, from what we understand. So that'll be fun. We'll get together and watch that together. And this time we didn't, but and yeah, I'm looking forward to it. I just I just don't want the show to turn into the Walking Dead, and right now it's on that cusp for me where we're still good. Walking Dead was great till season four. After season four, it kind of was like, we're gonna keep repeating ourselves now. And it's there, they meet a bunch of people that are survivors, and the survivors end up being bad guys, yeah, and they did that nine times later, you know. So it's kind of like, okay, you know, it's the show is getting to that where if we're gonna have some climax and we're gonna do some big changes, let's do it. I think the thing about TV shows is people need to understand this isn't law and order, you know, this isn't the Simpsons or Family Guy, where everything you do in each episode has almost nothing to do with what you're doing next. This is a continuous story that keeps going on and there has to be an end eventually. And I'd rather them end on a high of something that makes sense and it's really good. Yep. You know, because even my favorite shows I like when they end it, I'm like, oh man, I wish it didn't end. But in the long run, when I'm looking at it, I'm like, what a great ending.

SPEAKER_02 58:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 58:51

And that I'd rather have that than a crappy ending, you know. So I don't want this show to do that just because they can, just because there's viewers and just because they don't do the just because is like make this be a point. Like you said, Fisk is only going to be this for so long. You know, at some point that's got to end. And I don't want to see Vincent go away as that character. He's awesome. But if he doesn't end right, then what's all this matter? Good example, Dexter on Showtime, great show, and the ending sucked. And now I can't watch any of the other show because I just I know how it turns out, and it makes me feel makes me feel bad for what you know. I like to be able to re-watch something, no one is going to that real good place, you know, where it's supposed to be. So I don't know. That's all. Other than that, right now, though, I'm excited to see what's gonna happen next. It looks great. I love the look of this, the action, it's great. It suit is thick. Like, I mean, I've never had a problem with how they looked, anyways. They've always done a good the show's done a great job with their looks, and I'm curious to see where they go with a lot of this stuff. And Matthew Lillard, yeah, what's that guy all about? I love that scene of him and Fisk and Fisk's wife at the dinner table there. Well, that what a great scene because it's like there's a there's a power dynamic happening there.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:05

Where neither one of them, I think, understand how powerful each one is, and that's gonna be interesting to see how that turns out.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:13

I like that for Wilson Fisk because he is that type of character where he is used to being the big boss of his own crime syndicate that he's he's doing, and now he's in the world of politics, which is a great place for a corrupt person to be honest. But he uh the now he's butting up against powerful people that are like him to a degree, yeah. And now we're seeing one of the things I always loved about Wilson Fist because you could see how his brain works almost like a child type thing, and when he doesn't get his way, what he can do, oh what he can do. So I love seeing him put in the same playpen as another kid that's kind of like that, yeah, yeah, to see who's gonna come out on top and what the ramifications are gonna be for whoever comes out on top. Because the last time someone offended Wilson Fist's wife in the Daredevil show, he he did not, but he did not fare too well, and the fact that that happened and he pointed out what you offended her, made me think, is something gonna go down? But I'm like, nothing's going down. What's what's going on? It makes me want to know who is Matthew Lillard playing, what type of strings do they have? Oh, to see Wilson Fisk in the same room as Valentina Lagrande Fontaine or someone that's big and Samuel L. Jackson type Nick Fury, be like, what will that look like?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:41

But anyways, yeah, it's I love those moments in movies and in TV shows when there's a character that we know a lot about that we know what they're capable of, and they meet someone who doesn't know what they're capable of. And we're in our minds, we're just like, dude, you don't know who you're talking to right now. Oh boy. Oh, because if you only knew who you walk away to, yeah. I love those scenes, and that's one of them. That's something the show does real well, and I'm I'm excited to see more of that.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:08

Vincent D'Anofrio does an amazing Kingpin.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:10

Oh, he could play a scary, he's the nicest dude, too, like in real life. But boy, he plays a scary guy real good.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:17

Yeah, just good. Yeah, just good casting, anyways. Yes, so uh let us know in the comments below, by the way, guys, and send us a message on what you thought of the Daredevil Born Again Season 2, episode one. Yep. We did our little bit of highlights of our favorite moments of it and a little bit of a recap here or there, but um, please uh let us know what your thoughts are on that. And now we're gonna move on to our main topic hand. All right, so I'm gonna have my brother Yergy type something up about this. So um go ahead, give us the intro to this segment.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:54

So we are on our march to Doomsday. This is our second movie that we've watched in the MCU. It's technically the second to come out in the MCU official. Um 2008's The Incredible Hulk. This was a fun one, guys. I went back and I looked and to see what all the stuff that behind the scenes and how this movie got made. I'm gonna run down a few things with you. First of all, I'm gonna say this guy's name wrong, so I do apologize. But we're directed by Lewis Leary Leary. Could you say that was correct? A good way to do it. Leriar? Lilia? I don't know. All I know is he did a Clash the Titans remake. Um, he directed Now You See Me, which is kind of a flop in my opinion, and Fast Axe. So nothing too huge or big that makes me go, holy cow, I can't believe it, but he's definitely handled big you know spectacle before. I can't remember where the Hulk lies in. I think the Hulk came before these. So I think the Hulk kind of got him these roles. So, and as you can see when we get later on into it, it's not the big spectacle that we have a problem with when it comes down to this movie. So it's starring Edward Norton as Bruce Banner, uh, Liv Tyler as Betty Ross, Tim Ross as Emile Blotsky, and technically the abomination, and William Hurt as Staddius Ross, and Tim Blake Nelson as Samuel Stearns. Uh good important thing about this film is its beginning. It kind of starts out with failure. 2003, Aing Lee made a movie just called Hulk, which was not a clean success. It made money, but it was not a critical hit. Claimed to be too slow, not enough action, a little too psychological. It just wasn't up to par. But the box office was good and it showed that there was interest in the character. So Marvel decided to let the Hulk be their second hero story that they play uh to on their march to doing an Avengers movie, basically. But instead of a reboot or a sequel of the 2003 Hulk, so they decided not to reboot the Hulk, but it's definitely not a sequel to the one that was done in 2003. They called this one and they quoted this one as a requel, which I've never heard before, and I still to this day have no idea what it means. And you'll see as we move on what complications that brings. Much like Spider-Man, though, we have to also remember Marvel has the complicated rights to the Hulk. In 2006, Marvel required creative control over the Hulk, but Universal had disp distribute this excuse me, folks, distribution rights. So Marvel could make any Hulk movie they want, technically, any way that they want to. But it was up to Universal to decide when and how it was released. And that can be, you know, very contentious behind the scenes. If you make you can do Marvel as it did have rights to do whatever they want to do with this character. Um, but Universal technically could have not have released it if they didn't like it. So you still They still kind of had, you know, and say in it. And or they could have messed with when it was released or how it was released and how well it was taken out, and we'll see, you know, that's so they're very careful about that. Um, that's the main reason why the Hulk hasn't had a standalone movie since because they just they don't want to take the chances of it not working. I mean, they worked it out with Spider-Man, but there's also I think the deal in Spider-Man is a little different because there's more of a profit on both sides of what they had done with the Hulk at the time. Uh as long as he's a secondary character and the film isn't an official Hulk film, they can put him anywhere they want. That's kind of what the deal comes down. So, like you see in Sor Ragnarok, and the majority of the Hulk story going forward in MCU is told through other movies. Which honestly has actually kind of worked for the character, in my opinion. But we'll talk about that as these movies come up. Um, Marvel did not want to do a full reboot. They thought that no one would be interested in a complete new origin story, but they didn't want the 2003 Hulk movie to feel like it's a tie-in. So their middle ground was starting the film with Banner already on the run and in hiding and a strange trippy montage of the accident that created the Hulk through Banner's eyes. So they had a way of like, we're gonna give you a beginning, origin, but not really jump into it, and let's just get into him being a Hulk. And which I think, you know, has its up and ups and downs. Uh, one big thing to remember is Marvel at this point as well was still trying to figure out just what it was going to become. According to Feige, Iron Man and Incredible Hulk were more experiments than they were planned out, seeing if it's even possible to link and make an extended universe. Also, at this time, there were some leadership changes going on behind the scenes. A power struggle between producers ended with Kevin Feige rising to control by the end of the production. So technically, Feige wasn't your head guy at Marvel when it comes down to these characters until after these movies were made. So there was a lot of is this gonna work creatively? What are we gonna do? What should we do? And then it was also kind of had this big old cloud of problematic production. Okay, so ironically, the director did not want Edward Norton as a character, Bruce Banner at first. He actually wanted Mark Ruffalo, which is kind of funny because that's who ultimately becomes Bruce Banner later on. Either way, Norton got the role. Um, it's not quite certain on what happened there. I think Ruffalo actually said no, and they kind of decided to stick with Norton, but I never did find anything concrete on why they ended up going Edward Norton at the time. Um, so he got the role, and as soon as he had the door open, he started rewriting large portions of the script. He wanted a more darker, more character-driven story, like a serious drama. The original writer, Zach Penn, did not agree, nor would the Writers Guild credit Norton were they writing credit on the film. So there's a lot of issues there where he did do some rewrites, but they wouldn't credit him because they didn't agree with it. But once he was already in it and the filming had already started, money was already being spent, and you're kind of stuck with what you got. Um, so when you have your main writer and your actor trying to do different things, you got a lot of the heads button, and I think that that's something this this movie was played with. There's major creative conflict during the editing. Norton wanted a longer, deeper cut of the film. Marvel wanted a faster, more accessible movie is for audiences. Marvel ultimately cut the film down and removed a lot of Norton's character's material, ultimately causing a big feud between Norton and the filmmakers, which goes into promotional problems with that. Because of that, the production or the promotional problems, or I'm sorry, the production problems bled into the promotional issues as well. Norton did not attend promotional events like press tours, he instead went to Africa for humanitarian work. But studios read that as this guy doesn't like to play ball. And you know, it's hard to say. I'm not gonna tell a guy he can't go do some real good stuff for the world with his fame and his money. Um, but yeah, to not promote your own movie that you know you're kind of the star of obviously there were some issues going on there for sure. Um and there are timing problems of it. If that wasn't enough, it also had some timing issues. It released in theaters three weeks earlier. Or hold on. It released in theaters three weeks earlier, and it was such a hit. I'm sorry, I think I messed this up. Let me restart that. Can you okay? So they also had some timing problems. I think I let me read that again if that wasn't enough. So it's it had some timing problems. If that wasn't enough, it also came out the same summer that Iron Man did, so it kind of got overshadowed. And if it wasn't gonna be that good and Iron Man was gonna be awesome, which is what ended up happening, then you know it kind of got overshadowed overshadowed by Iron Man for sure immediately. And I thing is though, on a budget of 150 million, it grossed 265 million, so it's not a flop, but it also wasn't like a breakout hit. Um, due to the drama, Marvel and Edward Norton parted ways explaining the recast in the MCU. Uh this happening had some silver linings to it, it helped establish the structure of what will soon be the Marvel Cinematic Universe, and also shown Kevin and Marvel and then what not to do in the future for sequels if they ever do a Hulk sequel, which we hope they do. So that's all I have on that. And you know, it's very troubled uh kind of production to this movie. It shows on screen somewhat as we'll get into. Um, but after that, yeah, I'm gonna turn it over to my brother. He's gonna give you a quick little synops of what the movie is, and we'll dive right deep into this one and see how what we think of it as it goes.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:15

Alrighty, so the Incredible Hog, the synopsis of the film. A scientist, excuse me, pardon me. A scientist named Bruce Banner is forced to live in hiding after a gamma radiation experiment turns him into the Hulk whenever he loses control. While trying to find a cure, he is hunted by a military and pursued by a ruthless soldier, Emil Blonsky, who becomes a monster himself after undergoing a dangerous transformation. Banner must embrace the very thing he fears in order to stop Blonsky and save the city. Sounds good. The synopsis. Now, see let's see how they executed that film. Um I'll let you do act one and we'll do what we did last time.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:00

Sounds good.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:01

Sure. Yeah, uh I guess the first thing I want to say before I start bringing into act one is your opening there about all the issues behind the film, real quick. How do you feel about that? You got any ad. Uh well, Marvel at this time as a universe and as a studio is still kind of a baby. So I get it that whenever someone is starting off and they're trying to do something as ambitious, it's trying to create a universe, uh, interconnected movies and things like that. No one's ever done this to this extent before. I mean, you could say some franchises were successful, like Star Wars and things like that, but to interconnect all these different characters in its own universe, and this being the second movie, um, in doing so, I'm sure they had a lot of a lot of regrets on how they did the movie. Yeah. Um, and I think that as we're gonna discuss some of that came through in the film, the us as an audience were like, not so sure if this really worked out, but at the end of the day, they did it. I understand why they chose Hulk to be their second character to do this, because at that time, Marvel Studios wasn't beholden to Disney, they were their own independent studio shopping around between Paramount Paramount. They're able to cut a deal of universal, do a movie, things like that. So it made sense. They were probably thinking, well, we could do a Hulk trilogy in in our future type thing. That's before Disney swept in and said, We're gonna be your parent at company and we're gonna do everything for you. Be like, Great. Oh, sorry, Hulk, we can't do a deal of universal because mom and dad don't get along in that regard, there. So, anyways, um, so I I see their ambition in starting a movie like this, um, but I also see where the easily where those missteps happened, and yeah, um, yeah, hearing a lot about that behind the scenes. Funny that I didn't know that that the director really wanted Mark Rufflow in the beginning, and for some reason he turned it down, it didn't work out.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:01

Whatever the reason why I was surprised to read that as well.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:03

Yep, and then ultimately he becomes Bruce Banner, and that I can't think personally of anyone else I would pick for him. Sounds great, yeah. It just shows that there was some creativity behind the scenes. We're like, this is what we want, uh, this is what we have to settle for for right now, type of thing, you know. Um, and Edward Norton, he is a good actor in his own right, but I can I can tell that he there's there was gonna be some problems just on his version of creativity versus other actors' versions, yeah, anyways. Um, not to diss him because like I said, he is a good actor. I've seen a couple movies that he's been in, he's a great actor, and he even did the acting part in this movie really well. It's just that behind the scenes, when you hear about the drama behind the scenes, that really could put a dampener on the movie and whole. And obviously, this movie needs as much promotion as it could get in order to make it more successful, and so it's a miracle that it made the money that it did with the drama that it seemed to have coming from it, but yeah, it made money, and it's yeah, the defense I give to Ed Norton and his way of thinking with it is this was at the beginning stages, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:16:10

So I think when this movie was pitched to him, or I don't know if he came to the project first, the project came to him, but I think he looked at it as look, I'm probably only gonna do one of these. You know, I know that I know the idea of it being a multi or not multiverse, but a a uh unit connected universe was there, but I still think at the time most of them thought this might not work, right? Because they've seen it fail. Yep. You know, and then uh I think he thought that, and I think I don't think he's the actor for that, though. And I don't mean that he can't. I think if he was sitting right here, he probably would tell us that I don't think he wants to do that. But see, when it was pitched to Ruffalo at the time, it was a one and done movie, probably like this, where it might work, it might work, and not. And I think Ruffalo was a little more worried about his image. He wasn't as well known, he hadn't done as big his roles as Norton had at the time. Norton was a much bigger face than Ruffalo was at the time, as actor-wise. You know, the thing he's come off of probably one of the biggest famous movies he's done is that Fight Club, and everybody loves him in that, and he's great in that. Uh and but when it was pitched to Ruffalo the second time during the Avengers movie, at that point it was this is a cinematic universe. Ruffalo went into it with his eyes open, knowing I'm probably gonna do this for the next 40 years of my life, you know, for sure. And and I think Ruffalo is a good guy for that. I think he is also an actor that was okay with that. Because he's arguably might be somewhat of a hot take. We'll talk about this later, but he might be the best actor in the MCU. When it comes down to when it comes down to our actual official heroes, because the side actors are better, but as they're official heroes, he might be the best actor in the MCU outside of the MCU. But either way, he I think got into it with his eyes open, knowing there's gonna be more to this. When Norton's like, even let's say this movie was awesome and all his things was right, and it and it turned out to be, and they did it exactly that way. I can't see him being halt still. Because he's just I just this co-op is the kind of actor to me that likes to do these mega sequels, or you know, and maybe not, maybe it's different. Maybe, maybe that's the part, maybe he'd tell me complete opposite, and he'd say, No, I really wish I got that, you know. But I don't I don't think so, because I've heard him talk on on Rogan and a few other uh podcasts that that yeah, it's not that kind of style isn't his style anyway. He'd rather jump from movie to movie. And and personally, as an actor, he's better that way. I think he's awesome when he's in something that he can just dive in for one time and then not have to come back for, you know. So personally, so I give it I give him a little bit of you know, other than the the dabbling in, but I also like I said, I think he thought it had to be the best it could be because he probably wasn't gonna do any more anyway, most likely. Yeah, and they all probably kind of thought that because they weren't sure yet, obviously.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:52

And I feel like this is a good uh and I don't know this as a fact or anything, it's just a rumor. I'm sure if we ever get the the opportunity to talk to someone who is behind the early stages development of Marvel Studios and how they're creating all the stuff, they're casting directors and things like that. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the issues that happen with this movie is gonna happen early on in the MCU so we could settle, figure it out what to do moving forward and make a stronger universe type thing.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:20

Well, I can't wait for the day as they finally kind of end the MCU and we get that five-hour behind the scenes making of the best you know series in film history. And that's when we'll get like all these awesome real anecdotal, this is what happened, this is who did what, and yeah, because I'm sure there's tons of things that we haven't heard or that we know or they haven't confirmed.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:40

And yeah, yeah. But I I bet I mean, you know, we hear we don't we don't always know unless someone reveals what the contracts of some of these actors are, but we do hear multiple times when someone signs on for a Marvel role. They're now when they sign on, they're locked in for like four movies, a video game, a theme park appearance. There's like a huge at least four movies. Some of them have like 10 movie arcs that they're locked in for in their contract. And I think what they that I can see them putting that in after this movie saying, Well, we're not gonna get the star of our movie to think he's only gonna do a one and done type movie if that was his intention. And um, so when we get our future Hulk guy, we want someone who could commit and say, I will do 10 Hulk-related projects, I will do uh when the Robert Down Jr. is a great example that he didn't have anything going for him. That's why he was so um good at the role, and well, not just good at the role, but you know, he poured his whole life into it. And so he owes a debt to Marvel in that sense of you revitalized my career. So it was easy to have him sign something to say I'm gonna be Tony Stark for like 10 Avengers movies.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:50

We have no idea, but you know, yeah, and I don't know if that I would I actually I had to guess that wasn't the first contract. I bet it was let's do this and see what happens. Yeah, by Iron Man 2. I bet it was yeah, at least was agreed through Avengers, and then I say then I think the contracts got bigger and bigger because it was obviously this is working.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:10

Yep, and well, and this and then you had a little more stability with a studio that now bought was bought by a parent company that had that money flow stability type thing where Marvel's just doing what they could do to, you know, they I'm sure that when they um when Universal partnered up with Marvel Studios to do the Incredible Hulk, a lot of the finance stuff. Did I know that Marvel Studios made the film, right? But between promotion, distribution, and I'm sure some production management, some something, yeah, there has to be something from Universal to say, hey, we're gonna help you do this because you are a new company that you were very successful here. Oh, yeah, yeah, some details for sure.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:49

Yeah, yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:50

It wasn't like DC, where they were always part of under Warner Brothers, from my knowledge, they're they've for the longest time. So they had stability, financial stability for their characters. It's just they didn't have the architect like Kevin Feige to usher in an actual connected DC universe the way Marvel has been able to successfully do. Right. So long as they had comic books they could do it off of. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. All right, so I guess you want me to read the act one? Yeah, you go ahead and do act one and then we'll talk it like we did last time. Okay, so act one, the beginning. Um, let's see. Scientist Bruce Banner is on the run in Brazil, living in hiding while searching for a cure to rid himself of the Hulk. We learn through a quick montage that a failed experiment turned him into the uncontrollable creature, making him a target of the U.S. military led by Thaddeus Ross. When Bruce Banner's location is discovered, a military raid forces him to transform and escape, destroying everything in this path. Realizing he couldn't stay hidden forever, Banner returns to the U.S. to reconnect with Betty Ross and pursue a potential cure with a mysterious scientist, Mr. Blue. Okay. All right. I will admit, very on before we get started, that I had a hard time filling in our questionnaire that we had here.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:10

Um, just because I don't know if it was the movie started lagging down for me, or I couldn't think of the standout moment like we have on our questionnaire. And I'm like, you know what? I'm I'm just gonna shoot from the hip when we did this episode and be like this. I'm gonna do the best I can with answering this. But why don't you go ahead? What what do you think worked for the first act? Oh, not much.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:31

Um yeah, I wish this movie. And boy, we we said this before we went on air. Um we did a we ranked all our Marvel movies from you know best to worst. And this was surprisingly higher on my list at the time, and now re-watching it like this, it's definitely gonna lose some points. I forget um the issues I have with this movie, and and I think I think there's a part of me that wants to like this movie more than it it deserves, and that's my problem. One thing that worked is I think the action is good. I do like the action of this movie. Um I like this chase scene, although there's a moment in it that really makes me laugh and chuckle. Because, first of all, how easy is it to find Bruce? This makes no sense to me.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:27

I put that under the why it didn't work for myself.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:29

Yeah, like I'll let you touch more on that, but I'm I'm with you because like if how'd he stay in hiding this whole time if it just takes this a little bit? Come on, guys. Oh, it bugs me a lot. And and I like that Bruce is a kind of a goody, two shoes, like he's not gonna let bad things happen to people, or he's be real careful about things, but it's almost like you can't if you know that and you're not sure when, because you can't control when it's gonna happen, then you're gonna turn into this ravenous beast if you get, I guess, upset or scared. I mean, they don't even really kind of tell us in the MCU exactly what makes him turn, other than anger is the obvious one. But I mean, I think Ruffalo does a great job of that because we'll have to talk about that when we get to the adventures, right? So with this, it's kind of I just feel like okay, why would he insert himself in situations that could potentially in that place that he lives that seems like not a fun place to live crime-wise and everything, and he's this guy that doesn't fit in there like all this time, he's been kept under wraps. I don't know, I don't see how he's done it. I I get they do this little montage of him meeting this guy and teaching him how to do breathing exercises, and you know, I get the movies doing that and they want me to go there with it, they want you to take the leap. And I do take the leap enough, but there's a moment in this when they come for him where when they're coming for him, first of all, if you don't want to make a lot of noise or you want to blunt, you know, you know, make it so you don't know someone's coming, why would you shoot the dog with a tranquilizer dart and it like yelps and cries? You know, it's like if someone hears it, they're gonna go, oh, that's odd. When you just let the dog bark, because that's usually what that dog's doing, obviously, all the time. I feel like there's people there that hate that dog because that dog's probably barking all the time, all night, all the time. So why would you like, oh, by the way, we're gonna have randomly having you don't think it's gonna make them go, oh, that's different, right? Like, okay, there goes your coming in silent kind of crap. Then it's nighttime, right? It's the middle of the night. People are sleeping, right? Isn't that what's going on? So when they bust in and he's on the run, you realize like 10 seconds later, he comes around this corner, there's a bunch of kids playing basketball, and this and it's daytime all of a sudden. Like, man, they messed up big time this movie, continuity-wise. They just were like, I bet there's a lot of struggle in there, a lot of fighting about what are we gonna do next? How are we gonna do this? What's this gonna mean? And it just didn't work for me, man. It just didn't work. The chase scene itself is cool, the action looks good. I think that that's the problem I have with it. I'm like, man, you got these actors, they're great in their spot. And they're just like, oh man, this movie kind of sucked around it. Yeah, I I have trouble with this one. Uh so what worked was, I mean, I believe I will take the leap and say him working on himself and keeping himself under wraps as the Hulk himself coming out. I get it. There's a guy teaching breathing exercises that worked for me. It does work. Little unbelievable, but it's a it's a superhero movie. I'll take that for what it is, you know. Continuity-wise, it sucks. It's just not there. Um, what didn't work is yeah. They just found him. Like it's just this you found this guy way earlier if it was that easy, you know? Uh a standout moment to me is I gotta say, is is the action. I'll I'll tell you the. Like I said, that's the only thing that sticks out. I could care less about 90% of what happens in the beginning of this. And for the record, that montage is so melodramatic and I don't know, man. It just did when I watch it this time, it's almost embarrassing. I'm like, oh wow, these are you're taking good actors and they look awful in these moments. And I will, I'll, when we get to the end of our overall thoughts, I'll dive deeper into this, but I still think that to me is some proof that they should have done an Origins movie. And just make it a reboot to forget about the 2003 Hulk and do an Origins movie. But I have a I have a small little pitch. We'll show at the end, we'll talk at the end for that. So that's where I'm at with it. I give the whole thing a three out of ten. Personally, so why don't you go ahead and give me your your honest thoughts?

SPEAKER_02 1:28:59

Well, um, like I said, I struggled with answering this because I there are times where I'm thinking, all right, what will I find would be what worked for the first act? And I do agree it's uh almost a little boring and almost a poor setup with how this movie's supposed to be. I think that's that's kind of cool to see. Um, but um and for this movie, I get that they didn't want to do an origin because at the time when this movie came out, five years prior to that was an origin Hulk movie. So it's almost like it's one of the things I like to think about nowadays when we're thinking about the X-Men joining the MCU. It's been such a long time now, and the last X-Men movie that came out was so poor received that not many people even saw it, and those who saw it want to forget about it. So it's and Fantastic Four. Here's a great example. Fantastic Four, the last movie that came out in under Fox was in 2015. By the time we saw them in 2025, it was 10 years later. We were able to forget about any iterations of them before and not draw comparisons. This movie was uh five years later, half a decade later, and it was still Hulk is one of those characters in the comics, at least. When you think about when you're a comic book person growing up before these movies came out and they became the face of Marvel, and it was the comics. Hulk was one of like the three big characters that you would think of for Marvel comics, so that's why he had a Hulk TV show, he had Hulk cartoons, like there's two or three of them that are out there. So I get it, they would use Hulk and all that stuff. But the only thing I'd say that of not doing an origin movie for the story that they were trying to tell here, that kind of worked for me. But I do agree that the the montage of trying to show what happened was kind of choppy. It was is and I yeah, they had good actors that they made them it almost if you didn't know anything about the Hulk and you were trying to get gather what his origin was from that montage, you would get a very poor example of what happened to him. And I think that that's something because his origin is very deep and very character-driven and very emotional stakes for him as a as a character. Um, I do wish they had done an origin if they were gonna put him into the MCU and not tie it to the 2003 movie and want people to really forget about that. It would have been better if they did an origin, change their villain around to who they wanted because abomination is arguably his biggest villain rival in the comic, so it makes sense to make him the big bad guy next to Thaddeus Ross being part of his creation. But I think it would have been better if they did an origin, like you said. What didn't work for me, what didn't work for me. Um I would say of all the things that we could touch upon for the first act, the my biggest pet peeve was how they found out where Bruce was. You're telling me that this guy has been on the run for multiple years now, wanted by the U.S. government with the full backing of the military led by General Ross, and yet they only find him because Stan Lee has a heart attack that has high levels of gamma radiation in the drink. One, this is okay. If Bruce Banner, after being exposed to gamma radiations, already has this gamma's gamma radiation throughout his body, like even when he's just normally Bruce Banner, not transformed to the Hulk, you could detect them. They have detectors for gamma radiation. Yeah, there's no way a drone or a plane couldn't have flown by and said, That person looks weird. Yeah, look at that blob of gamma radiation walking around like a human being. And it's not like it's not like this is an established universe where there's superheroes all over the place like it is right now. Right. This is the second movie. You're telling me that the only thing out there right now is Tony Stark, who's not doesn't have powers at all. He's just a super genius flying around in an Iron Man suit. This guy actually does have powers, and you can't find him. You're telling me also that there hasn't been one thing. I mean, he seems easily provoked in this movie in turning into the Hulk. So it does surprise me with the area that he's living in and the crime that is very obvious. Even that one little scene of him trying to defend his co-female co-worker from the pervert that's there wanting to hit on her and almost made him angry. You're telling me that that never happened daily and he never transformed to the Hulk. For someone who's supposed to be unstable in this and this infancy of him becoming the Hulk. I'm sorry. There's a lot of holes in in the structure of this film in the beginning. It does get better, but for an opening to set the universe up, or not the universe, but to set the movie up to what you're gonna see. There's there's a lot of holes.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:32

They even indicate later on in the Avengers movie that they already know where he is.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:35

Yes, Black Woodle had to go after him.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:38

Black Woodle and Shield already knew where they were, but yet SHIELD just figures it's better to leave him, just leave him be.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:45

You know, he's kind of our nuclear option, right? In a way. But it's funny that SHIELD couldn't then intervene with Thaddeus Ross and doing a military operation in a foreign country. You know, I mean, in real world talk right now, uh, just just to reference it for this this moment here. Um we recently had a military raid in another country where we captured a leader, like within the past month or two. The coordinated efforts to get something like that done was insane. Yeah, yeah. So to go after the Hulk like this, just send a bunch of guys. Yeah, come on, you're not ready for this guy? Yeah, you're not ready for him. Like it's just there's they've already seen what he becomes. So it's like what are these guys gonna do? I'm trying to figure out a way to how they could have made that better, other than just rewriting that whole beginning. Yeah, well, it just shouldn't have been part of the story, but yeah, yeah, but anyways, well regardless, um it was that was that was my biggest pet peeve is the and how the are our our in the US, our departments, our government would have figured out a man dying of a reaction to a drink somehow gets transferred that information over to the military so he could do a strike. Isn't that like a health and human services issue at best? That there's an FDA problem with this thing, you know, like and we know how government works, ladies and gentlemen. That camera's off. We know how the government works, they don't communicate with each other well, if any. So this is gonna be communicated, executed properly within our government. I'm sorry, it just makes it unbelievable.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:34

I can't imagine they figure out that the soda did what it was supposed to do.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:39

Yeah. All right, sorry they're technical difficulties, but um, it's just the yeah, that whole that whole thing. Unbelievable. Yeah, so um standout moment, I will have to agree with you. The action that they've done for this movie is really good for Hulk action and the military going against them type thing. Like um you we can nitpick on how the military attacked them and how they should have been more prepared, as we just laid out. But in all honesty, the um action part was not I actually found, and I wrote this as part of the and we'll I'll touch upon it as when we get to act two. But this movie knew what it was doing when it came to an action movie. Yeah, it didn't know what it was doing the rest of the time. Agreed, and I think that that was reflective in either the constant changing of the script or the drama behind the scenes or things like that. Like, because after a while you're going to act your way through so much before things just start getting annoying to you, and then it shows on your face and your mannerisms.

SPEAKER_00 1:37:43

But it often makes me wonder what stuff they cut out that Edward and them had filmed that maybe would have made this feel more. Maybe his version was what we needed. I mean, I kind of wouldn't mind seeing it after seeing this. It kind of makes me go, well, what's his then? Because release the Norton cut. Yeah, we want we want the Norton cut. Anyways, four hours of it.

SPEAKER_02 1:38:09

Please.

SPEAKER_00 1:38:10

Yeah, don't do that.

SPEAKER_02 1:38:12

So my overall score, I was a little more generous than you. I think you gave it three out of ten. Yeah, I gave it five out of ten. That's it. But even that is still low compared to what it could have been. Oh, yeah, for sure. So yeah. All right.

SPEAKER_00 1:38:25

Uh I'll let you start off Act Two then. All right, act two. So it's gonna be kind of the rising conflict, okay? So, back in the U.S., Banner reunites with Betty and tracks down Mr. Blue, revealed to be Samuel Stearns. Stearns claims he can cure Banner using gamma research, but complications arise when the military closes in again. Meanwhile, soldier Emile Blansky becomes obsessed with the Hulk's power and volunteers for the experimental super soldier enhancement. Banner briefly undergoes a procedure to remove the Hulk, but it fails. Balonsky increasingly unstable and power hungry, forces Stearns to meet to mutate him further, transforming into the monstrous abomination. The situation spirals out of control as Banner realizes the threat he helped create. Alright. Oh boy.

SPEAKER_02 1:39:23

So I'll I'll start off with saying my my two cents on this real quick, then. Um I will say that I did not I liked I was highly favorable to the second act of this film onward. I think it we did do the poor start in the first act, and there are a lot of plot holes and things like that. But once you got to the second act, you got over it and you just realized, all right, let's just keep going on this ship and this ride and see where it's taking us. I thought that did a lot of cool things in this. Um this act contains my favorite scene, which is actually the university scene of the Hulk fighting the military. I thought that was really executed well in almost all that they did on that end, um, showing the Hulk's limitations and also showing that he can get through almost anything they at that time. Funny, they're prepared for him at that time with those sonic blasts, but they weren't in Brazil. Whatever. Anyways, we're not going back, we're going forward. So um the college campus of the Hulk versus the military scene, I thought was well done, in my opinion. Um, I couldn't think of too much on this particular act of what didn't work, and maybe as you reminisce, you it'll pop up, be like, oh yeah, that was pretty crappy. But um for me, it another question we have on here is did the pacing hold up? Um, there are in this movie throughout the whole movie, so it's not just for act two, but act one definitely is suffered in act one, and you saw a touch of it in act three, um, when they're trying to get to the climax of it and it's like taking forever, it feels like to get there. Um, which makes me worried if there is a four-hulk vers four-hour version of this out there, the Norton cut, if it's more of this, because it already seemed a little long-winded for a movie like this, anyways. But regardless, um I think there are some pacing issues with this movie. The movie knows what it's doing when then this military scene with uh the campus and the Hulk, that it's a good example of this. They know what they're doing when it's action, when they're doing developing action moves and the camera angles and the cinematography for it, and um but everything around action scenes, they know what they're doing when it's an action movie really well. It does not know what it's doing when it gets to the more emotional part of things, the more human part of things that it sounds like Edward Norn wanted to push into the movie. Maybe that was Marvel's way of saying, look, we've seen what we got of it, and we don't want more of it, because those are the parts that I think they had a hard time connecting with the audience, not only with the audience, sometimes with each other, between Bruce and Betty. There are times where I'm thinking, because I'm at this point, we're in the second movie of the MCU, so you always compare things that came before with what they're doing now. Is this stuff driving? Is it working? I didn't see the chemistry between Betty and Bruce that I did with Gweneth and uh Robert with uh Pepper and and Tony. And I don't know if it's an actor thing. Um, like not I wouldn't say so much an actor thing as in like individually the actor thing, because we have our two cents on Liv Tyler in particular. Um, but I don't know if it's just a chemistry actor thing between Edward Norton and Liv Tyler, that it just wasn't meeting the mark of what you would think Betty and Bruce would be. That's where I feel like an origin would have been so much better because you could see them develop those, maybe not develop those romantic feelings, but you know, explore them a little bit more and seeing what exactly what happened. Because it's very clear, they make this in the movie, that um Betty Ross loves Bruce Banner. Very clear. And he like they're they're trying to show there is a chemistry there, but then when you get their scenes alone together, it's almost like what type of chemistry is this? What reaction are we supposed to get from it? Because it's not so not what you would think, but anyways, that's uh oh, um, another thing that we have written down on here best character moment in act two. I'm gonna personally say is Emile Blonsky in the university scene. I thought that at that point he had already taken the experimental super soldier serum that the US government had that Ross had given it to him, and he made it very clear this is highly experimental, you have to be under my advisement and control, all that stuff. And I think he handled it really well as a character with obeying, but then at times not obeying, but Ross seeing the potential in that serum still working, and then all of a sudden he he disobeys orders and he looks like he's a pancake. But obviously that straightens out within the matter of I think in the movies, within the matter of days. So whatever this super soldier serum is, yeah, Lord have mercy. Anyways, it's not fun. Anyways, I give this just because it has my favorite scene in it, and I think it definitely picks up um from where it was left in the trash before in the first act. I gave it like an 8.5 out of 10. And that might be a little too generous, but for a movie like this that has a lot of holes in it, it's a great scene that you're talking about. Uh, I'm I'm gonna give it that rating. All right. What are your thoughts?

SPEAKER_00 1:44:50

Oh boy. So I agree with the majority of everything he said. Um, the best part about this act is definitely that fight at the college. That is great. That's some of the best stuff. I love just the moves that he makes as a human super soldier, and you know, they're ready for the halt this time. There's a lot of that I love that dynamic. I like that setup, it's real good. And the action is fantastic, and that's gonna go with in what worked and pacing-wise. Uh yeah, pacing is there's issues all over the place. That is the only thing about that act I like. Everything else sucks. I am not a fan of what's going on in this movie, you know. Um, you know why we don't buy the Betty and uh banner relationship? Because she's cheating. Because she's just this she's she's Jenny from Forrest Gun. You know, you want the real villain of this story, it's freaking Betty, man. Oh no, what was she doing to this guy? Like this guy's just trying to be there for her, and and the Bruce comes around and she's just off with him somewhere. Like, it's okay, Jenny. Whatever. You know, it's someone who wants Forrest because he's a millionaire and she's dying and she has a kid they get taken care of, right? So, yeah, that's that's all it comes down to. She, I just I don't buy this story, I don't like it at all. Uh the best character moments, I'm gonna have to give it to Blonsky and Ross together. I like their scenes together. Um I just don't like their dynamic, though. I don't buy his his villainy. I don't care for if that's the right word to use. I don't care for that he's just a bad guy already and it's making him worse. I don't buy it. You know, I just don't buy that stuff. It just doesn't work for me. I mean, that guy's he's in a certain position, he's a he's a military guy with no discipline. Like, I don't know. I'm just it bugs me. It is where's the backstory of that? I mean, I don't know we don't always need that, but I I I do see the obsession he has with the power of it, but I'd rather it be like out of desperation that they need to do something to get the Hulk. And and I'll get into it a little later. But yeah, no, I don't care for it. It's not, it just doesn't work. I don't buy her, I don't buy the situation. The only stuff I do I'm okay with is him trying to uh get rid of the Hulk that's in him. I'm okay with all that stuff. I like that dynamic. Um I like uh Stearns and the role that he's in. I think he plays that well as this this part of it. Um we won't get into Brave New World when that happens because it's not the same character in me. I think they messed that up. But I like the pre him becoming, you know, who he becomes. I like that. I think that works for me. His character works. So for me, that does work well. That I'm gonna get rid of the Hulk. This guy's gonna try to help me, but ultimately it fails because you know, we can't just get rid of the Hulk, you know, it's not gonna happen. Yeah, yeah. No, I I gave this a five out of ten. Um, the only thing that holds it up is that that the action and that fight scene is fantastic. It's probably the best of the movie. Really, the best moment of the movie. Other than that, the chemistry is just off the charts, awful. They are cringy together, it's weird. You know, it almost you can almost tell that as soon as the camera cuts, they're kind of like you know, it makes you wonder if something's wrong. I don't know if it's them too. I particularly have an issue with Liv Tyler's acting. Uh Edward Norton, though, is good, so you'd think that they'd be able to hold it up, but I don't know, it just didn't work. I didn't buy it. Then she's it's like, what's she's just cheating on this other guy? Nice guy. Just a guy doing his thing. He don't know what's going on. The poor guy. The poor guy. How do you go, you know, how do you compete with the Hulk, right? Yeah, no, she she's got her priorities a little mixed up. And I and I also between her and her father, I don't buy that either. I don't buy the tension there as well. And which is on on the actress, it's on Liv Tyler for that one because William Hurt's a great actor. He does this, but I also think it's the writing. This I just wish that there was more to it than you just got between me and Bruce, you know, and especially since you're you're moving on, you know. Like it's like it's like, I don't know, I just really have trouble with that. She's moving on with this guy, and she still holds that kind of grudge against her dad. You know, I get that there's a whole situation, but once again, like you just said, that's where why didn't we get this origin that we understood this and felt this? And we would feel the same that they're feeling if we knew that, you know. Yeah, it's it's awful. I'm not a fan of that. So that's where I sit with it. Five out of ten. Um I struggled through this movie, not gonna lie. This part the action kept me going. I just kept saying, Okay. When's the next time he starts beating the crap out of things? Yeah. And then that's what kept me kind of interested in seeing. Because even though the CGI is a little iffy for this movie, it's okay because I understand you know what time does and and I remembered when it came out, so I'm always a little relaxed on the CGI. So to me, it was fun seeing those things happen. Yeah. Um yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:50:23

Yeah. Well, I mean, I it's funny as we were talking about that before we get into act three. I did forget that part of act two is him going to Stearns, finally getting there and trying to um get it get it out of him. I like that as a concept, and I think that does play good for a sequel type movie, but with this, they're not even sure how to name this if this is a sequel or not. It definitely isn't an origin, but it's also like are we supposed to know? I don't know. That's that's that's where I feel like they could have done a similar movie, including an origin in the beginning to fix the whole first act, and then you know, go from there. Like, I I don't know. I feel like this movie would have benefited if the very first maybe not the first act, but like the first couple scenes were an origin scene, and then you cut to five years later, and he's on the run still, and he's shown during that five-year montage in a better edited way than a kid from high school. Um even though kids from high school a little bit better than that. But, anyways, maybe that's just a sign of the times. Um, but show how he's moved from different locations to keep away from the military, maybe have him live in more hostile areas of the military doesn't go to, but then he has to figure out I I can't stay here because it's a hostile area for a reason. You know, I I could have seen some stuff like that that make it a little bit more believable in the military not being able to track him down, but also um give him that origin and make it where okay, he had no choice but to come back to the America for X, Y, and Z. You know, I don't know. I feel like there's a way you could have rewritten this movie that would have made it a little bit better. But yeah, I agree. There is a lot of other things at play which we'll just take it as how we got it. Um so yeah, I didn't mind that scene of him trying to get the Hulk out of him. I thought that actually bode well is a good origin for Samuel Stearns, sad what they did with him later on, years later, but still for at least an origin for him and an origin for abomination. I honestly will have to say that one of my favorite characters of the whole film is Emil Blosky, just because he knew what his objective was gonna be, and he went for it. The whole movie, whether you liked the guy or not, or you thought anything else of it, at least you know he was consistent where some of these other characters didn't really know what they were doing. Yeah, I agree. At least that's how it felt. So, all right. Um, let's see. Final act, uh final act. Want me to read the no, I'll tell you for that. Okay, you got it.

SPEAKER_00 1:53:08

So act three, oh yeah, the technical would have been you, but it's okay if I go. Yeah, go right up. All right, yeah. Act three, okay, we got the Hulk versus the Abomination. It's the end of the movie, folks. With Blonsky now, the abomination rampaging through Harlem, the military is unable to stop him. Banner makes the choice to embrace the Hulk as the only force capable of stopping the destruction. Leaping from a helicopter, he transforms and engages in a massive battle through the city after a brutal fight. Hulk ultimately defeats Abomination, but spares his life, showing a hint of control and humanity. In the aftermath, Banner disappears once again, continuing his journey of self-control while final scene featuring Tony Stark, Robert Dodd Jr., hints at a larger world beginning to form. Okay. Alright. Oh, so as we got on here, we're gonna discuss things here. I'll go ahead and start this off, I guess. Uh, did the ending land why or why not? So, no, it did not land for me at all. I don't like that this movie pretty much ends at the beginning of the movie. We are now we saw a whole movie to end with him back right where we started. In the same situation. So, in other words, all this movie really was, was them finding him easily. Them him re-engaging his relationship with Betty, which in turn she cheats and breaks another guy's heart. And then creating the abomination in order just to let it live, to go back into hiding, which kind of looks like he went back to the similar same place he was before. Yeah, what the hell did we just watch, man? This movie went nowhere. There's no destination to this movie. This movie was a like a fever dream of his. I'd have been happier if he'd woke up in the bed at the end and we realized this was all a dream. I'd be like well, that makes more sense than what we got. And yeah, I don't this is not an earned ending. It just does not make a lot of sense to me. And I gotta tell you, this not killing the abomination, we'll get into it probably a little later on. But what else are you gonna do with this guy? They're not ready for the Hulk, they're not ready for the abomination. Well, you're gonna choke him out and they're just gonna hope he doesn't come back. It's not like he's just gonna put the handcuffs on. Okay, yep, you got me. Uh no, this what is going on here? This is this is a mess. This is a mess. I have a very hard time believing the end of this. I don't like that he just thinks, well, I'm just gonna fall off his helicopter, and I know what's gonna happen now. It's like at what point in this story did we ever get an indication that he feels like he had the confidence that that's how the Hulk's gonna manifest, other than he realized the Hulk's not gonna let him die, right? That's all he knows, that's all he's going off of. Is I'm gonna fall from this helicopter and I'll turn into the Hulk because that part of me won't let me die. Well, do you know that for sure? You don't know that for sure. You know, we later on, Mark Rufflow's character tells them that he figured that out because he tried to shoot himself, and the Hulk spit the bullet back out. Like he had to do something like that in order to understand that. Has our kid that character ever discussed that? No, we just assume it's just as they went Hollywood, they went, let's have a good time, and then this is where the action, even for me, starts to fall apart. Where I just this battle through the city is just it's so overdone, and it's like I don't care for the abomination being able to speak. I don't care for this, it turns it just turns different. It's all of a sudden this movie tries to take several steps forward. This would have been a great ending to like a third movie, maybe. Or I'm I don't have a problem with this kind of happening in its own way, and I know that we don't want to kill the abomination because he's kind of ultimately the Hulk's you know, big bad, really, that you'd say in the overall. It just didn't, it just didn't seem to set with me, right? The end just didn't set the acting, the chemistry, uh, it just none of it built up to me feeling like this was an emotional payoff, truthfully. If I if I if I gotta be honest. And I hate saying that, you know, with a climax, yeah, it's not earned. I don't feel like it's not earned. And my biggest issue is uh uh he should have killed that thing. Um, and if you're not going to kill him, we we understand why not. Like I don't mind plot holes, but that's a real big one. That's like a, oh no, don't because of mercy. Like, not that. Not that thing. That there's something that you need to do there, you know. That's what's something I'll give DC credit for, is they're willing to go there, you know, and and I think that that needs to be something Marvel kind of has taken. There's moments in Marvel that are like, oh wow, they went there. But overall, with our heroes, nothing diminishes me if he popped the abomination's head off and threw it across the city. I'd have been like, the Hulk's still cool. Yeah, go Hulk. You got him. Because what else are you gonna do with that guy? At that moment, we don't know if that guy can even change back. You know, it's yeah, rip his head off because if you don't, he's gonna catch his breath and he's gonna kill everybody there, anyways. Like, because that's there's no stopping the thing like that. There's no stopping the Hulk, just as the abomination hulk are essentially the same thing, just in two different people, right? And and and it shows in a different way. So it's like, what are you talking about here? You know, it's like we don't we don't and we don't know that he can turn back, as far as we know that he was given too much of that stuff that this is his he's mutated into something that can't come back, yeah. So that that it really it really bugs me. It really it really does bug me big time. Um I because of the big skeptical fight at the end, I gave it a seven out of ten. Um, because it at least it stayed consistent with how crappy the movie has been getting as it goes. I'm sorry, folks, I'd really be crapping on this movie. I'm trying my best, but this was a very tough one to get through without being very honest about what I'm watching. And it it really is. I wondered why I like this. This was one of those movies that at the end of it, I kind of wondered why we still gave crap to movies like The Fantastic Four and The Green Lantern. Because this was this was worse, my opinion. But yeah, so yeah, I give it a seven out of ten. Go ahead, Sammy. I mean, I I hope you got better things to say about it than I do because that I really feel like I'm a big bummer right now about it.

SPEAKER_02 2:00:04

Well, I mean, like I said, this is hard for me to fill out this questionnaire because I'm I'm trying, I I'm trying to view this as optimistically as possible. But it's a big mistake. At the same time, like, all right, so question of did the ending land for me? I looked at this movie when I was writing my answer for this question as more of a point of view of what I see they were trying to do with the character and showing that the Hulk is not the bad guy and the abomination is the bad guy. And also, like you said, that the abomination really is the main adversary to the Hulk, always no matter what. He's like that that staple character for the Hulk. That whenever you need someone to cause trouble for the Hulk, Abomination usually is there. So I get that they didn't want to kill him. I like that they got to the point where he was about to kill him and then Betty stopped him. I do think that for me, that was a that was good. For me, that was good.

SPEAKER_00 2:01:09

Yeah. Um, moments like that make me wonder why we see X-Men the same way. I understand. I get why they like it.

SPEAKER_02 2:01:19

And I can see why they wouldn't put that in the movie that he killed abomination, because at this time you don't want kids running around with a hulk fist, and then he killed the abomination in the movie and be like, what message are we sending to them for that? So I don't know. Even even for the X-Men, they won't kill their bad guys, it's just they either end up dying because of something worse, or um they kill themselves, really, um, to a degree. But anyways, so yeah, I do I I like showing that the only thing that I do like really about for the ending is that Hulk himself has shown that he can have some control himself, which I think that was the the common theme throughout this whole movie is that Bruce is trying a hard time not turning into the Hulk because when the Hulk turns into the Hulk, he says Rampage doesn't care about anything else other than Betty, but um it was and probably it was because of Betty that he didn't do it, so I get uh you you could have the argument that he still doesn't have control, but um it kind of left this ambiguous at the very very end of the movie when he like gave this half smile that he was gonna have another incident. Is this is he gonna be a bad guy, or does it show that he has control? Which ultimately Marvel took that route in Avengers that he had ended up having control more so, but regardless, for this movie, um I just liked that it showed that he can have a little more of a humanity to the Hulk himself. The Hulk isn't the bad guy, as everyone, including himself, is treating him as. And so that's why I give it as that part of the landing. If that's the core overall theme of the movie, is get a w cure him of this because he's bad. It turns out he's not that bad. That's why I thought it kind of landed for me in that aspect. But I do get why it didn't land for you on everything else, because yeah, and we may disagree on killing um Emil Blonsky abomination there, but um my only pushback is and for the sake of it being a uh a a good discussion, yeah, is I don't think that the question of whether the Hawks are good or a bad guy has ever been in in ever been presented.

SPEAKER_00 2:03:40

I don't think you have to. I everyone knows they're going into seeing how bad Blonsky is and how much of a jerk her dad is. I I don't think that the question of whether he's good or bad, okay, proving it to everyone else, sure. But that doesn't mean anything, anyways, because no matter what he did in that moment, Thaddeus Ross is still a jerk all the way up until when he's a jerk, you know, to the last time we saw him. You know what I mean? Like, even in the piece of crap movie we got with the Captain America movie. I I think that his humanity, uh the fact that he has some sort of humanity in him, that's shown in the movie and the whole sequence where he's in the rain with Betty. And he's remember they're sitting there and they're all sweaty and it's all the hulk and she's all like, ooh, you know, it's like it's like why he's not ripping her apart out of anger because he's an out-of-control monster, is exactly the humanity that you're trying to show in a moment where she talks him into not killing something. That I get it, you know, we don't want to see our heroes killing people, and like you said, even in the X-Men, they don't kill, but but they do, and he they like our good guys don't, they're trying not to, but ultimately what the bad guys are doing is like they're in the position where they would. And first class is a great example where he's telling Magneto, you know, don't kill him because if you do, it's not gonna bring your parents back, it's not gonna make your life any better. But Magneto still kills them, you know, and that guy, and ultimately, you need to kill that guy. Magneto's not wrong in that situation. We just didn't want to see him do it out of the anger he did because we don't want we know Magneto's gonna go bad, so it's okay, it works that way. But I'll I'll like I said, I'll go back to DC. You know, I love one of my favorite things that Batman begins is hey, uh, you know, you're gonna break your rule at the end with Rosdell Ghoul. He tells him right now, he's you're gonna break your rule. He goes, I'm not gonna break it because I'm not gonna kill you, but I don't have to save you. So because that's the kind of guy you don't let live because he's gonna come back and finish what he did. And his daughter ultimately comes back to finish what he did anyway. So even with him dying, he still is dangerous. And I I just don't see now. If let's say the abomination turned back into Tim Ross's character, you know, Belonski. And then he went to smash him, and she said, Don't kill him. I see more of a well, that makes sense. Because at least he's the guy now. You know, we can figure out let's get him in something before he turns again or whatever. But he's literally this giant thing that's trying to kill everybody. Almost killed the thing that you will know you can't stop. Let him do it, man. Like, what are you talking about, Betty? Like, what at what point do you feel safe with that thing laying there? You know, it's like they're not ready for that. You're not telling me they got a pen. Well, don't worry, we have a cage for him, ready to go. No, you don't. No, you don't. Like you think you do, but you don't. And then that's that's what bothers me about it, is it's just it's so inconsistent in that sense. I I don't think the issue of proving that the Hulk has a humanity side to him, even as he's the Hulk, is even in question, unfortunately. Which is why I feel like it's just so redundant. It's just it come off as flaky, Disney safe-esque. Oh, we don't kill because our superheroes can't kill. Because if they do, they wouldn't be that no more. Well, I'm sorry, but you watch all the Batman movies, you're telling me none of those guys have ever died, even the ones where he doesn't kill. There's some of that stuff that happens to those people, that guy's dead. There's times where you're like, that guy's dead. Like, and you're not supposed to kill him. You know, it's very obvious in the Batman versus Superman because he's not holding any punches, but there's people that died from Batman, you know, and there's there are people that would argue that that's why they don't like him. I argue that's why I like him, because there was he was at a realization of his life, you know. And I think these Marvel movies are smart enough to realize that we are at a point where these characters can die. We don't need to see our heroes be the ones that kill them right outright. Sure, I understand you don't want to see Iron Man murdering somebody, you know, but if you have a good reason why the person doesn't make it, you know, it's we're okay with vision destroying Ultron, you know, he didn't let Ultron live because he felt bad for him, you know, he blew him apart. So but it's okay just because he's a machine. So arguably Ultron was AI, arguably he was a thing as well. So I don't I think that we can't be this picky and choosy. I mean, we got to a point where Thor cut off Thanos' head, you know, like straight up Viking style, and nobody blinked an eye, nobody cared. In fact, we're like, that's awesome. You know, so it's I understand this is earlier on, but that's the problem. It's like take chances, man, get there. You know, and then they, you know, I don't know. I got you. I hear you though, but just for argument's sake, I just don't think that that was a necessary thing to have to prove. You don't gotta prove that he's got humanity on the fact he doesn't kill Betty is good enough.

SPEAKER_02 2:08:49

That's true, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:08:51

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:08:54

Uh let's see. Fun movie, guys. Yeah, and by the way, if for anyone who's watching, it's okay when you disagree about something too about stuff like that. As we're just talking this out to see, all right, that's my point of view, that's your point of view. And jump in the comments and let us know which point of view you agree with, too. Yeah, who knows? We we could have someone else who has an even completely different point of view than all this, or because I understand both sides of it.

SPEAKER_00 2:09:20

We don't want to see our Hulk killing guys, and I get I do get they're pressing that that theme home. And then if that's the case, then they did do a good job at it. I just for my taste, I'd rather I just was kind of like, man, I don't know. Sometimes you just got to do that.

SPEAKER_02 2:09:33

I will say if he did kill um Abomination, it would have, to a degree, how do I say this properly because I don't want to say it wrong, revitalized my interest in the movie. Yeah. Because that's one of the problems with this movie throughout the whole thing is that I was having to watch it to make sure I kept my interest going with it. And so I'd grab at certain things that they were doing to say, oh, that's interesting, when in reality it was very mediocre at best. And so if they did something like that where he had killed the abomination, I would have been a little more intrigued by oh, where does it go from here? Type of thing. It would have felt to me like you were exactly right. At the end of this movie, it goes right back to Hulk's on the run. Yeah, Ross still wants to capture him. Betty is now deprived of her love again for him. And probably begging for the other guy's affection back. Yeah, selling, or what are he selling mainly? Yeah, um, it it did, it landed uh again where we started the whole movie of so made me think it does make you think where was this important enough? What have this had the lead to, you know? Like, I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 2:10:50

There are a lot of see him killing abomination at the end to me would have been like would have taken what you said as it's important that we see the humanity in the Hulk that we've been seeing through the whole movie that we already know. At the end, if he kills the Abomination, you could have made that scene have an emotional impact and a sense of him knowing doing it knows what that's gonna make him look like to everybody else. But there's no choice. I have to do it. You know, they Zack Snyder understood that when he did Man of Steel. When he had Superman have to kill Zod, or Zod was gonna kill that family. That was all it's gonna make Superman look like someone that can kill, which is something Superman hates that and makes him look like, but what choice did he have? Right? It was either let those people die or not, right? And we have this same argument comes back in civil war between them. Like Cap is like, yeah, there's gonna be casualties to doing the right thing, but we still need to do the right thing. When Tony is like, no casualties are worth anything, no matter what it is. So, like you almost are playing into the same scene that you got out of Iron Man. In my opinion, him killing the abomination in the emotional sense of the news that you can even show the cameras are there. And she's looking and they're looking and he's looking at her, and she she can even say, Don't do it. And he just like, Well, look at this thing. What are you talking about? So he rips his head off and kills him, and then leave us with that whole is no different to me. It would have been the same. It'd have been akin to his I am Iron Man and it go into credits. You'd be like, Holy cow, look what he just did. Like you just took now, we know you're a good guy, but you are capable of doing this, which makes you still very dangerous. I can see that. If if if it wasn't it's more interesting than what we got, is all I'm saying. It is.

SPEAKER_02 2:12:41

No, I I agree. If if it was done in that way where that was the perceived view afterwards of that's the effect we wanted to have, like was the Superman and Zada. It's a great example of using that because at the time when they did that, that was a huge risk. Yeah. And Zack Snyder was like, who cares? I'm gonna do it anyways and just see what happens. Yeah, it was awesome. It turned out to be probably one of the best moments I've ever seen Superman do. Yes, it's the one thing he traditionally never would do, but he was put in a hard-pressed situation. Do I save these people or by permanently stopping this guy or not? And he he did the right choice. I don't know if I feel like there have been enough people, hesitant enough to do that in this movie because it hadn't been done yet, that they would have been more worried about my perceived notion of that of Hulk's now becoming the bad guy, instead of he's a good guy who's willing to do the unnecessary things. Um, nowadays I feel like you could do that, you could get away with Hulk doing that. I don't know if back then you could have, so I see why they played it safe.

SPEAKER_00 2:13:44

Yeah, I agree. It's it's I mean the dark knight had to make everybody realize you can do this, right? Like when you went the dark night with everybody perceived that Batman's the bad guy, and us as an audience know he's not. No one was trusting that we're smart enough to understand what's happening right now. Yeah. And we were. I think I think they should have taken the chance. I think the audience would have got it. But the fact they didn't take the chance made us kind of get this movie that once again felt like we got nowhere, right?

SPEAKER_02 2:14:11

It probably would have been the only thing in this movie the audience would have understood more so than some of this other stuff I think.

SPEAKER_00 2:14:17

I think they're single-handedly saved the movie, in my opinion. I would have been like, okay, the rest of this crap is okay. That's a good hot take of the whole film. Because ultimately that's how I feel about Man of Steel as well. I'm not a big fan of that whole movie, but that ending's great. Yeah, I'm almost like, man, that ending's worth some of the stuff I don't like in this movie. And that's and a lot of times, folks, with movies for me, I'm very forgiving. If you give me a good beginning and I care, and you give me a good ending, that middle part can go almost anywhere you want it to go, and I'll follow as long as it doesn't get too wacky. But yeah, yeah. Alright, well, um get into our separate things here, or do you or we have to rate that, don't we?

SPEAKER_02 2:15:01

I have to rate it, yeah. Unfortunately. Um was the climax earned? It really wasn't. I mean, I I put on here, I think it was to a degree, but uh at the same point, there the fact that we ended up where we started from in the beginning just showed to me it does. I didn't even think about that in that perspective when we got done. And then as you pointed out, I'm like, oh, wait a minute, you know what? That is right. I'm really thinking in my head, no, that that can't be right. And I'm thinking, oh, where's she? Oh, where's he?

SPEAKER_00 2:15:34

Where's oh oh he's almost back at the same apartment. What the heck? Same dog outside, still sleeping, telling you. He's still gotta go beat up that guy that tried to corner that girl. Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, that's why they could find him in Avengers because he went right back to where it was.

SPEAKER_02 2:15:52

Ironically, though, even though I had a different perspective of the if the landing ended, I had the same grading that you did at 7 out of 10.

SPEAKER_00 2:16:00

Isn't that funny?

SPEAKER_02 2:16:00

Yeah, that is funny.

SPEAKER_00 2:16:02

It's like I think we both appreciate the action no matter what's going on around it. Yeah, something this movie did right was it look, it looks good. It looks like a lot. And it's fun to watch them be each other up.

SPEAKER_02 2:16:12

And speaking of look, the CGI really was pretty good for it. It did hold up to a degree. Yep. You could have said there's some iffy moments, yeah, but and they did took creative liberty on making the abomination look the way they did, but they want him to look like a grotesque abomination. And he did. He did. Yep. I like what they have now of him in the MCU, the what we've seen recently, but it's still it doesn't take away from this version of it.

SPEAKER_00 2:16:37

Yeah, it's not so different that makes you think it's not the same. Exactly. You just cut you haven't seen it so long, it doesn't really little changes are it doesn't matter. And he's aging, so why not just add it in? Who cares? You know, yeah, because the Hulk looks a little different, you know, even as we go on, you know.

SPEAKER_02 2:16:54

Yeah, exactly. All right, so um post-cred scene. We have a section four post-credit scene, but in all honesty, we just talked about it, yeah. And this movie doesn't have a post-credit scene. That's right. This was all done, even Samuel Stearns making the smile that his brain is morphing and becoming the leader. That's still within the movie in the third in the third movie, in the uh third act. And um, Tony visiting Ross is literally the last scene before the credit's cut. So there's no post-credit or mid-credit scene, if unless you want to count this as one. So, but let's let's touch upon that last scene then, technically. Tony visiting Ross. What are your thoughts on it? So I'm gonna go to the score.

SPEAKER_00 2:17:36

I'm gonna give it 10 out of 10, only because there's nothing wrong with it. But there's nothing really that stands out either. It's it's I think it's okay. I I I think it's a it's a good safe follow-up to the one we got in Iron Man because it shows that he's on board with whatever Sam Jackson was trying to say. Yeah, because he's now there on behalf, right? Of talking about the Hulk and all that stuff. So it really, there's not a lot that happens here. He just pretty much meets him up and they just they're a little banter, and so I guess you hear you got a Hulk problem, and then boom. It just solidifies to us that they are doubling down that we're gonna do this movie someday, guys. It's coming. Yeah, yeah. And uh so I think that that that's it. So because of that successful, there's nothing wrong with it. It's definitely not as exciting as the first one, you know, because that was out of nowhere. But to see Tony Stark walk in and made you go, ooh, cool, you know, it's like so, yeah, that that's the perk that it had was that. So yeah, I give it time at time. It's good.

SPEAKER_02 2:18:39

Well, I think one thing that's really cool about this, and in in retrospect, of thinking when Iron Man 1 came out and when the Hulk came out, when they're both in production and all that stuff, they're taking a risk with Iron Man. We talked about that, and they thought they were doing a safe bet with The Hulk, but just in case it didn't land well, they put it three weeks released after that one. Which, by the way, I I don't think that was done on purpose on Marvel's end. Yeah. Because they have to remember that Paramount was distributing, Tony Stark, uh, Iron Man, and Universal was doing the Hulk. Right. So two separate studios releasing their own movies, it makes sense. It's kind of like what we talk about nowadays when it comes to oh, why is Spider-Man gonna be come out before Doomsday? Why didn't they change that? That's not up to Disney to change that. Sony said, we're taking July, man, and I don't care what the heck you do with the other one, we're still taking July. Yeah, so like just how it works. It's just yeah, it's just that's part of the deal. Uh, anyways, so I did find that that was interesting. That it's like we're gonna in Marvel Studios perspectives, it's like, okay, hopefully they do relatively well enough because we're showing the audience we're trying to connect something here, and within three weeks, you're gonna see we're already starting to connect the dots, you know what I mean? Yeah, um, I gave it 10 out of 10 just like you. I thought that that was a cool cameo of Robert Downey Jr. showing up and telling Thaddeus Ross we're putting together a team. Um there really wasn't too much of a payoff though for that post-credit scene, other than you see the the Avengers because the what I've for that post-credit scene, it's between Tony and Ross. You don't see Ross at all in Avengers, so I don't know what the that was if maybe it's we're informing you that we're putting together a team, and by the way, the Hulk's gonna be in it. It doesn't explicitly say that the Hulk's gonna be in it. For all we know, it could have led to Abomination joining them for yeah, not that it was gonna, obviously, but so as far as like uh a setup for the Avengers, cool, it did it. A payoff for the post-credit scene, there really wasn't a payoff on because we don't see Thaddeus Ross mentioning that during Civil War, during any of the other times we do see him again, which if I remember right, and I might be wrong, I think Avengers Age of Ultron is when we officially saw William Herc come back as Thaddeus Ross. I don't think we saw him in the other stuff before that, and during that, I don't think it was mentioned any of that conversation. So um, if you want to be nitpicky, there really wasn't a payoff, but it was just a heck of a cameo and a heck of a scene to show we're building something, but I still would give it a 10 out of 10.

SPEAKER_00 2:21:20

I think they played to it still a little bit because it was uh Tony Stark that came to see him, and ultimately, out of all of them and the Avengers going forward, Tony and and uh Banner have a friendship. And Tony, for some reason in Avengers, is really obsessed with him as the Hulk. He's kind of like always like talking, like so. What do you think about that green guy? You know, and he kind of is like you know, he kind of gets at him a little bit, you know, and almost like he wants him to turn to see it. Like he's like he's kind of like fascinated by it. Yeah, so maybe it could be as easy as you know, in the post-credit scene of Iron Man, you guys were putting together a team and he's like, well, like like who? And maybe Sam Jackson tells him about the Hulk and he's kind of like I gotta go find out what's going on here. And maybe it's him going to him on his own, you know, but that's just speculation because it's not something they say. But to me, it's like it's just it just shows that his interest in banner all along kind of fits that it's him that going and it's not Samuel Jackson, because really, if you wanted to really throw the point home, it should have been Samuel Jackson walking up to Thaddeus Ross, yeah, not Iron Man.

SPEAKER_01 2:22:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:22:27

Because really, when you think about it, later on we find out that he doesn't really like having Iron Man as someone in charge of things. Yeah, basically kicks him out of the program.

SPEAKER_02 2:22:37

Then he's like, no way you can't do that.

SPEAKER_00 2:22:39

But yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:22:40

So I guess, well, in retrospect, when I'm thinking about Tony and Ross and any part of relationship they have throughout the MCU, I can see where the payoff would be considered. Tony know is familiar with Ross's mindset because it was Ross who put forth the Sokovia courts eventually, that Tony signed on to and they agreed on all things. Almost like Tony knows how to play with a figure like Ross, so that's why he would go to him and kind of befriend him in the beginning to say we're building a team, and by the way, the guy you don't like, I want him part of this team. Yeah, and maybe Ross, maybe again, this is all speculation because we're trying to read between alliance and make sense of it. Right. Um, maybe Ross is like, Well, I did see him do some good in stopping a bad guy, so maybe it'll work for you, but I don't want him.

SPEAKER_00 2:23:29

So, you know, well, we have no idea, but well, Tony could be using him too. Yeah, it could be, you know, because it's just because even their relationship is fun in like civil war. It's funny. You know, I I love when Ross calls them in civil war and he's oh yeah, please hold. He goes, Don't you hang up? I mean, it's like you almost think that there's there's something there, there's like a connection between them already, you know. Maybe, maybe it's because of the Iron Man suit and all that stuff, yeah. You know, and then it's just Tony's way of just, you know, I got someone on inside they'll tell me things because that guy would rather have control of me.

SPEAKER_02 2:24:00

Yeah, well, Tony Stark is applying weapons to the military. Ross is the example of the military, that's right, or the representation that's probably knew him already, true. Yeah, that maybe it's probably where they got the their deals done type thing. Who knows?

SPEAKER_00 2:24:13

Actually, in the movie, doesn't he just say, doesn't he just when Tony shows up, isn't he kind of like, oh, start? He does, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:24:19

So it's like everybody knows who he is anyway. Yeah, so okay, I can see I can see where that could be sort of the payoff type thing where they they're just establishing the connectivity.

SPEAKER_00 2:24:28

Their relationship movies. Yeah, which is a really weird, fun, funny.

SPEAKER_02 2:24:31

Yeah, I kinda like it.

SPEAKER_00 2:24:32

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:24:34

Yeah. Well, and whatever your thoughts are on this was the payoff or none, please comment down below. We're curious on what you guys think of that whole scene in general. But let's get into our deep dives real quick. All right, so uh let's see. For you, best performance.

SPEAKER_00 2:24:49

I'm with you. Uh, I think William Hurt and Staddy's Ross is great. William Hurt's one of my favorite, favorite, favorite actors. He's done some really good stuff. If you guys have not seen Mr. Brooks, where he plays an altered ego to Kevin Cosner, you need to go watch that. He is so good.

SPEAKER_02 2:25:03

Oh, I forgot he was in that movie.

SPEAKER_00 2:25:05

Yeah, that's a that's a good movie. Yeah, he's a chameleon man. Like he's he doesn't come off it when you see him as this role, because it seems like something he only fits into. But when you go look at his filmography, you realize, wow, this guy knows his stuff. I also really like him in the village, really good in the village as her father. Um, yeah, I very great. And he's awesome in this. He brings the credibility this movie needs because as good as Edward Norton is, this is not his best. And I honestly, you know, I'm I don't ever foresee me in the future having a chance to interview Edward Norton, but so I'll say it right here. I don't think he's as good as everybody makes him out to be. And I I wish I could say differently, I think he's got roles that are real good, they're real fun. The best actor next to this in this is Tim Ross, and I just have an issue with his character. Um, but I would say that's an honorable mention, it would be Tim Ross for sure. But yeah, no, I think uh William Hurt's Thaddeus, you and I are on the same page with that one.

SPEAKER_02 2:26:03

All right. Well, it's your most uh oh, yeah, for me, like you just said, William Hurt as uh Thaddeus Ross blew it out of the water for me. I think he was a he's a good actor, and he shows his acting caliber in this movie on taking whatever script they give him and making the best out of it. And it turned out his part was actually pretty well written for what it was, you know. So it was good. I can't complain for the writing for him as I could for some other characters. So um it was a great choice. Um, I feel like, and this might just be me, but it we're seeing a pattern in these early Marvel movies where you get some actors that maybe are lesser known or not as high caliber to help be part of the big part of this move of the movies, but then they're like, We're gonna splurge a little money on this guy because he's he's someone who we know will get butts in seats, or he's a higher caliber actor. Nowadays, they could they have like the pick up all of Hollywood, whoever they want, and you'd be stupid to say no to working for Marvel at this point because it's literally career makers. But this is still the time where superhero movies are getting on their feet a little more, they've had success with the early French men, yeah, yeah, the early X-Men, the spar early Spartan, and all that. But they're they're starting to become popular now, and this is where MCU really brought in the popularity. So I can see where William Hurt was kind of like their let's go bigger go home with this guy type thing. Yeah, you know, for sure, for sure. Anyways, all right. Your most surprising performance you're gonna disagree about.

SPEAKER_00 2:27:32

So does this have to be a good or a bad thing?

SPEAKER_02 2:27:34

No, it could be no anything. Uh like, oh, that was surprisingly bad, or oh, you know what? I was shocked.

SPEAKER_00 2:27:40

Because uh everyone, I was not surprised by anyone, which is which is uh a sad thing to say because I wanted because William Shirt is he was the best, like we did the best performance, but it wasn't his best performance either, you know. So it's not like he blew me away. Um I can't believe that they let I'm gonna put this in this in this category just for the hell of it. Um I can't believe they killed Stan Lee in one of his in one of his uh cameos. Out of all the cameos that he gets, he never dies, but that's what he does. And I'm like, that's a weird one to like have him die, you know. Like, I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 2:28:19

Yeah, I get that.

SPEAKER_00 2:28:20

Yeah, so yeah, I'm gonna put that in there only because I I'm trying to be nice and I don't want to like just do nothing but talk crap about everybody, you know. So yeah, yeah, I I yeah, they took a chance to kill Stan Lee, and that was kind of funny, you know. I thought that was interesting.

SPEAKER_02 2:28:33

Yeah. Well, I put for my most surprising performance for me, and mind you, I had not seen too much of this person's work, and it's funny that when we go down the next question, I got the same person for it. But um I had only seen Liv Tyler in The Lord of the Rings before that, and I feel that her acting ability, her best work is that soft spoken mannerisms of don't go, you know, that's it. And she has that perfect still I don't know how you do it, and I don't say this in a bad way, but she has that perfect still doll face of like a deer in the headlights type thing. Maybe that's just her or that's her acting ability, but that's the only thing that I I put her as surprising because there were some moments in the movie where when she did start to get emotional, like as an angry type of emotion. I I didn't expect her to to be able to do that. So I'm giving her a compliment in this. So um when she got angry, she could get angry, but it may not have lasted long, it might have been a short shortly fizzled out or things like that. But that was the only thing that I'm watching. So I'm like, oh that surprised me. She's got a little spark in her. So, anyways.

SPEAKER_00 2:30:05

So next week I'll save my comments for the next one. So the weakest performance, if any. Yeah, live Tyler. For all the opposite of what he just said. Okay. He yeah, you do not have a lot of experience seeing her anyway. Uh-huh. And the truth is, it's because she's not in a lot. So the stuff she's in, I would say she is just not good, guys. I'm sorry, but and I I feel bad for saying it. I I think her best roles are the smaller the better. She's in the best trilogy of all time, which is Lord of the Rings, and that's to me her best performance. And she's in 10 minutes of a nine-hour epic. So that tells you a lot already. So um I would argue that her role in this movie is the exact same person that's in Armageddon. The exact same person. She's in that movie, too. Yep, just a deer in headlights, don't know what I'm doing. Say your lines.

SPEAKER_02 2:31:14

That's her special.

SPEAKER_00 2:31:15

Keep creating.

unknown 2:31:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:31:18

They wanted to want, then they nailed it. Because she's awful in this movie. Like, there is, I don't care for it. I don't care for her. I don't buy it. I there are a ton of people that should be in that spot. Yeah, I don't know, guys. It it's it is a preference thing. Everyone's gonna like who they like, everyone's gonna they speak to who they speak to. I'm sure there's Liv Tyler fans out there that would swear up and down she's their favorite, her favorite, the favorite actress. And I get it, because I don't like Angelina Jolie, and you're gonna find out later that him and I are very different on that as well. Um, but it's got nothing to do with. I'm not I'm not saying she's an awful actor. She's definitely a better actor than me. You know. Um, I do think that she's a Nepo baby, and I think that she uh I think that she's I I think that she suits the role for the movie she's in. Truthfully, though, um I do think she's better in elevated roles. Like if the movie's better, I think she does better. Like she's great in Lord of the Rings, and she doesn't have a lot to do, but the part she does well, she does very well. Um, but she also I think they also played to her strengths, you know. Um, I I wouldn't say I'll throw this out there. He's my favorite person in the world. Arnold Schwarzenegger's not a good actor either, guys. He's way better than he was, and I think he's still he is a good actor, but he's not that good. He's not, you know, Daniel Day Lewis good. Yeah, and just like she's not Kate Blanchett good, right? And I and I think that that's where I'm coming from with it. Where uh that's how I feel about her. She, I don't believe her. The chemistry between them, I think, was her personally, was on her end. Um, yeah, that's where I stand with it. I it's okay, but I just think that you know you're the same. She's uh you take her out of Armageddon and put her. I would love to do a supercut of her scenes in Armageddon and just kind of put them in with this one, and I don't think the movie changed. Other than, you know, maybe a little more romantic.

SPEAKER_02 2:33:12

Oh my god, see this movie now. Um, but yeah, I did put like I put my most surprising performance I put was her. I also put the weakest performance was her, just because it's the same, it honestly it's the same thing that you said. Like it was surprising to me that I was as I'm watching, I'm like, oh wow, she does have something in there, but then it's so short-lived, and I'm like, oh, it's back to what I expected. And I don't mean that in a bad way, Liv, but like let's get let's get you a better movie and see if like you said, if she's in a better movie, maybe she'll have a better, um, more prestige type uh uh ability. I don't know. I don't know, but yeah, the um I did put her down. My weakest performance. I also put I believe that was kind of on purpose because, like you said, that she there are certain things that they play to her strengths with with the Lord of the Rings, that you feel, and I feel like that's this is what they wanted for Betty. Um they wanted her to be this dough-eyed um person that maybe without Bruce there she'd be a little bit more of a genius or a little bit more of a this or because she's a doctor and are she's supposed to be um a doctor of something. I don't know what it is. Yeah, because we don't believe it.

SPEAKER_00 2:34:36

That's why you don't know what it is. Because if she's a doctor of what? Yeah, Dr. Seuss, maybe. I mean, that's the best we can do.

SPEAKER_02 2:34:44

But yeah, she is unfortunately of the whole cast there, she definitely is the weakest performance. I understand what you're casting wins or misses. So this I'm gonna save for my hot take. Okay, alright. Okay. But um Edward Norton is the only one I definitely would have made the change to because I just don't believe him as Bruce Banner. Or gotcha. Yeah, Bruce Banner and slash the he probably does better as the Hulk, but again, I don't know how much of that was the most encapturing or stunt people because I don't know what he does. I know behind the scenes of what Mark Ruffalo does for it, and they really try to make it where it is Mark Ruffalo with the motion capture outfits and everything. I don't remember them saying that much about that for the Incredible Hulk. Maybe he did do stuff for his facial features. I know they I know they did for the face, yeah, but not like the whole body. The actual acting of him, I don't I I can't look at him and say, Oh, I can see Edward Norton in it. Whereas when you see Mark Ruffalo's Hulk, you can see even how he walks. Yes, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 2:35:54

Yeah, I agree with you there. Yeah. So uh yeah, who would you put in there if not him or Ruffalo? Oh, if not him or Ruffalo? Yeah. Oh my. If you could do a Hulk casting right now.

SPEAKER_02 2:36:15

That's a hard one to think about it.

SPEAKER_00 2:36:18

We'll have to revisit this, folks. Yeah, because I it could be a fun episode sometime in the future of recasting the MCU.

SPEAKER_02 2:36:23

My first thought was like, uh, Richard Madden. But I think he looks too good looking for Bruce Banner. I agree. You need someone. That's one that's one of the problems they have with Spider-Man is that Andrew Garfield was great at his mannerisms as uh Peter Parker. He's just gorgeous. He just looked too good though to be the Peter Parker that we know of.

SPEAKER_00 2:36:46

It didn't come off as a nerd.

SPEAKER_01 2:36:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:36:48

And all it came off as why are you not famous?

SPEAKER_01 2:36:50

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 2:36:51

You're way too pretty to be treated like that.

SPEAKER_02 2:36:53

Yeah, no, no offense to Marie McGuire, but you did look like a Peter Parker. Oh, sure.

SPEAKER_00 2:36:58

Yeah, yeah. Oh, he knows that's why he loves it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So anyway, so they even pick on it in the movies. You're gonna go as a youth pastor, or what are you gonna assume?

SPEAKER_01 2:37:08

Perfect.

SPEAKER_02 2:37:08

Yeah, they love it. Yeah, so I I don't know who I would pick for. Um if I couldn't pick Mark Rufflo, which I just after seeing it, I think he is. Well, we can come back to it sometime, but yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:37:21

Food for thought, folks. We'll do an episode of recasting the MCU. We will someday. We'll go on the list. That'd be a fun one. We have to recast it with people that haven't done it before. That'd be a good time.

SPEAKER_02 2:37:32

Yeah, I because I have thought about that for some other Avengers, and I already know exactly for my Black Widow who I would have picked those different Scarlett Johansson. But we'll get to her when we get to that.

SPEAKER_00 2:37:41

I don't even know that guy, so we'll find that out.

SPEAKER_02 2:37:42

Yeah, we'll get we'll get to next week's episode. All right. Uh I I added a category to here um called Wasted Potential. Yeah, that could be any casting. I it's under this casting, but it's basically under deep dives. Do you have any wasted potential you thought about the whole movie, whether it's a person, a story, a character?

SPEAKER_00 2:38:02

Yeah. So mine's a weird one. And uh it's I don't know if he noticed this in the movie, actually. Yeah, I did after my second rewatch, which was very hard. Took me two days to watch it the second time. Oh, I hear you. So I think uh wasted potential to tie into the MCU later, they could have done it in this movie that they already had done, was when Edward Norton or when Bruce Banner gives Lou Fredno the pizza to get into the lab, and he's in the lab and it shows the other lab guy with the pizza. That guy, that actor, is the same actor that plays one of Peter Parker's teachers.

SPEAKER_02 2:38:40

Oh, that's right.

SPEAKER_00 2:38:41

So I think it'd have been a fun, you know, it definitely is a wasted potential on that, where there could have been a moment between them where he mentions working for a lad before he could have been a science teacher in in in the Spider-Man movies, and and that just would have been a neat little tie-in as a fun. Oh, look, see, it is connected. That's all. Because I agree with yours. I'll let you go with it. Yours is a better one, but I thought that one would be a real fun one to mention. That it's the same actor. I can't think of the man's name. I apologize. Anyone who knows, go ahead and comment for us, please. But yeah, uh, I think that would have been a fun little could have been a little joke in Spider-Man movie that he had something to do with the Hulk, especially now that we got the Hulk and Spider-Man coming up here soon. Yeah, well, that'd be the pretty time for him to walk in and say, Oh, hey, Bruce. You know what I mean? Like maybe they'll still do it.

SPEAKER_02 2:39:32

Do you still deliver pizzas?

SPEAKER_00 2:39:34

Yeah, maybe they'll still do it. Maybe he'll walk in and they'll say they'll say hi to each other. That'd be cool. That'd be so maybe the potential's not wasted yet, guys. We haven't got to the movie yet. Maybe they know this, they must know this. The guy's right there to the beginning. They flops a pizza around for like 10 minutes. It's a long look-in-be scene, like it's a pretty long for an extra, to be honest with you. There's no words, just the pizza, and you hear the pizza. It's a weird that they got the microphone right up next to it. So you hear the flop, but thanks for that Hulk movie. So there you go, bud.

SPEAKER_02 2:40:06

Well, so uh we we I like this question personally because we run into this all the time, especially with these type of movies where we're watching it and we're like, oh, they could have done something different with either that plot or that character, or oh, it's right there in black and white, where you can see like on your face what they're gonna do, then they don't do it, and you're like, Oh, what the heck was that about? So for me, and this is I I can see where maybe you didn't you didn't get this at first because this is like the comic booky part of things. Yeah. So Liv Tyler's boyfriend that she throws off to the side, like poor guy when Bruce comes along again. His character in the show, in the movie, is Doc Samson. Now, Doc Sampson is big in Hulk lore, and he eventually becomes like gets juiced up with gamma radiation himself and becomes part of the Hulk team or Hulk people, whatever you want to call it. See, I didn't know that. And they treated him as just a love interest of Betty, like she has a type. She only wants to gamma infuse people, I guess. Um, and I don't even think he knows it. Hey, Betty's a problem here. She's feeding him gamma peels at night. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:41:22

Like, oh, I want my Brucey bad.

SPEAKER_02 2:41:27

That would have made the movie a little more interesting. Like, oh, Betty's a villain. Oh, I know he's a villain. But um I'm actually shocked that now they're starting to bring some of these Hulk characters back to a degree in different fashions, whether it's a cameo appearance here, the villain in someone else's movie here, you know, things like that, that they haven't brought this character back because that's still a big known actor from my understanding. Ty, I got his last name misspelled here, but he's bigger now.

SPEAKER_00 2:41:57

At the time, I don't think so. At the time, I don't think he was big, but he's definitely now he's been in some TV shows that are I think community is one of them. Maybe I'm not sure. I haven't watched him personally. Yeah, but I recognize his face. Yeah, I know he's in some movies that are he's real big in for sure.

SPEAKER_02 2:42:14

So I I just put him down as a wasted potential as how they treated the character, just being um the new the new yet discarded love interest of Betty in this movie, where the character himself, I I would rather have had him named something else, like a a character just made for the movie, because I would have been like, okay, we wouldn't have to worry so much about it. But for for him being named this in the movie in the credits and even being acknowledged in that, but yet there's no tie into the comics, I just felt that was a little bit of a waste of potential. If you're gonna put him in there as Betty's love interest, get throw the audience a little Easter egg or a little bone of saying, Oh, he's actually important in Hulk's history, so make him part of the thing so that's happening. Not that as soon as he gets a as she leaves with a Hulk because she's unconscious, and he looks at the father and says, Well, screw you type thing. Like the poor guy still sitting in the rain for all we know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:43:11

In the house, like yeah, just like you're just sitting there going, What the heck is happening?

SPEAKER_02 2:43:15

Like, oh well, I lost my girlfriend. Yeah, but I the love of his life, but yeah, I get it.

SPEAKER_00 2:43:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:43:22

Poor guy. Anyways, so poor representation of that character if that's what they're intending to do. So that was my waste of potential.

SPEAKER_00 2:43:28

I I like that. That's a good, you know, I will definitely think a little deeper than for the next one going forward. I just thought that that was a very funny. Like, I'm like, oh wow, that's interesting that that guy's in there. I didn't realize that until I saw his face. I'm like, that guy looks real familiar. Yeah, but then I did have to go confirm it on some videos and other stuff to make sure I wasn't out of my mind.

SPEAKER_02 2:43:45

Yeah, because as soon as it popped up, as he popped up, I'm like, oh, who is that? So I looked at the cast and I saw his name and it says Doc Samson. I thought, why does that sound familiar? And then me just going, doing a simple Google search, Marvel. You could have done that to figure out who this character really was. Um, it pulled up comic images, everything, and I'm I watched the whole origin on him. I'm like, interesting. So this is an actual character, yeah. But they treat him as like a castaway, like a oh, he's just there for honestly. She could have been single, and it wouldn't have changed any of the movie. It would have been better for her. Well, it made her look a little better, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:44:24

Anyways, so yeah. It's funny because that kind of your wasted potential kind of fits like with what I would consider the wasted potential from Iron Man, would have been to have Obadiah stain be linked in with Hydra later, so then it'd have been cooler that oh, not only did you know was the Obadiah not really that good of a guy, but he also is even behind your parents being killed, so it's just even another layer on top of why Tony's the way he is. I think that would have been interesting. That would have been very it at least explained why he was even more scarier to the terrorists than the terrorists. Yeah, because he would have been one then.

SPEAKER_02 2:45:01

That's more like a blink in the miss it type thing, yeah. Right there. And we've missed it unless we did our deep dive.

SPEAKER_00 2:45:06

Yeah, and it'd been like, oh, that'd have been cool because it had been like just really would have re-established why he was so bad so quick, because he really never was good, you know? Yeah, and Tony ended up not being the stuff he wanted him to be, you know, and so on and so forth. But we're all done with that.

SPEAKER_02 2:45:21

All right, director style. What do you think?

SPEAKER_00 2:45:23

So, yeah, I think the director did a good job. Uh, he doesn't he hasn't done too many things after that that made me uh feel that he's someone I would hire all the time. I think Clash of Titans was a very good remake of that movie. Um, but yeah, I think he's he was a safe bet for the movie we got. I'm not surprised. You know, uh, do I think he's in it? I don't know the guy. I couldn't tell you anything else he's in. I had to look them up. So yeah. So unfortunately, it was uh unforgettable, it was very forgettable, I should say. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:45:53

I just put good, um, I I think it was an upgrade from the 2003 Hulk, but that is to be expected as technology just continues to evolve. Of course, it would be different. The thing about the 2003 Hulk and directing style and vision and how they portrayed it is they made the 2003 Hulk mimic a comic book and the panels whenever they did scene transitions to the point where at some times it felt a little nauseating when you're watching it, like it's being warped around, you're trying to focus on that little panel and what it's doing, and that there's another one, there's another one, there's another one all at the same time. So I'm glad that they didn't do that in this. What I did like about this is that they had the little countdown every once in a while of how many days since an incident. I thought that was cool and would be perfect for a solo Hulk adventure because it would be interesting to know. Oh, he's been 365 days, oh, 32 days, oh, now zero, you know, stuff like that. I thought that was cool. Other than that, directing style and vision, it no complaints that that for that part was good.

SPEAKER_00 2:46:52

All right, uh, cinematography, same days, I feel the same way, nothing unique here, truthfully. Very cookie-cutter, safe, the guy knows they know what they're doing. Nothing was wrong with it. There was nothing really outstanding about it either.

SPEAKER_02 2:47:07

Yeah, it didn't really have like an artistic vision. Like when you watch a Sam Raimi movie, you're expecting artistic vision, and even the trailer, it's a brand new day. You could tell that Dustin Daniel Curtin has an artistic vision when it comes to that.

SPEAKER_00 2:47:19

That's where I'll give that's where I even say, like, compared to the 2003 Hulk, at least they took a swing. And it may have not worked. I don't necessarily agree that it didn't for that movie. I definitely would say it's it's it's jarring. Yeah. And it gives the movie a different feel. Um, but I might be okay with it for that movie. For that, we'll we'll get to into that in a second. But yeah, that's uh definitely nothing to stick, you know, that sticks out. Like you said, even the trailer of the Spider-Man shows that there's more behind you behind the scenes there than this hand.

SPEAKER_02 2:47:55

Yeah. All right, how about cinematography and the visual effects? Uh that kind of goes alright.

SPEAKER_00 2:48:00

Yeah, yeah. Well, same once again, the the visual effects is it's it's good. Yeah. It's it's to par with Iron Man, which it needs to be. Yeah. Really is all it has to do. It can't look worse than Iron Man.

SPEAKER_02 2:48:13

Yeah. Yeah. I I I thought it was good too. Uh I only questioned like the Hulk's physique a little bit when I was watching it. And and I'm not trying to compare him to the other Hulks, but I'm just trying to compare what like human anatomy, what that would kind of look like. And as you could tell when you look at the Hulk, especially like around this chest area, he is very veiny. And I don't even know there are that many veins like that that would protrude out the way they are. Um, so that was but obviously as things times went on, they improved some of that stuff and all that. So it was okay for this.

SPEAKER_00 2:48:45

By the time you get to Avengers, they got it figured out. Yeah, yeah. They got the right kind of green too. Yeah. This Hulk is like a dark green, he's like a tree that comes to life. And then the 2003 Hulk is like a crayon. Yeah, he's like, whoa. Yeah, which is it's neat, but it's like cheese. It's like the mac and cheese you made. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Oh, like when you get to Avengers, it's like a little mixed. It's it's just right, more natural.

SPEAKER_02 2:49:09

Yeah, I would say of a green person. Um, action quality.

SPEAKER_00 2:49:14

Yeah, this is what this movie's got going for it. Yep. The action's great. Yep, I agree. That's that's the only times that's what made it worth getting to it and bearable was watching the action in it, to be honest.

SPEAKER_01 2:49:25

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:49:25

All right. CGI quality, I think we just touched upon it. Yeah, we just touched on it. It still stands up for to a degree. Um, maybe Abomination was the weakest in the quality, but he still wasn't the worst I've ever seen of CGI. Agreed. Agreed. Music, there's really for me, there's no remarks. Is there music in this movie?

SPEAKER_00 2:49:44

There's one moment where you hear the old TV show theme song play, and I thought that that was kind of nice. Yeah, it was after you know, he after the chase thing and he's running away. He's kind of sitting there like a poor wet dog under a tree, and the piano plays, and and I'm like, Oh, that's a cool little nod to the old show. Other than that, the music I I can't remember what it was. No, me either.

SPEAKER_01 2:50:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:50:08

It's like I don't remember a bit of it, to be honest with you. So, in other words, it's good. We didn't have to think about it.

SPEAKER_00 2:50:13

Something going forward I have in the issue with them with the MCU is a lot of them are have music I don't you know, other than the Avengers theme and some of the stuff from like the actual Avengers movies, there's not a lot of good theme songs in the MCU. Not like we did with I mean, you want to talk theme songs, X-Men. That oh that just turns people inside you when you hear that.

SPEAKER_02 2:50:40

Like, oh my. Anyways, all right. So uh this section is called Hot Takes, and I have been dying to hear Ike, so I want him to go first. So, what is your hot take of this movie?

SPEAKER_00 2:50:50

So, my hot take of this movie, I mean it's gonna be in two parts. The first part is I'm gonna tell you what I think this movie should have been if I was writing it. What this movie should have been, it should have been a good first half hour of the movie to 40 minutes. Should have been an origin story of their love story, him being a scientist, what his place in the world is for real. I would actually have liked it if they were engaged and Thaddeus Ross and Bruce Banner actually were friends and they were okay with the fact that he was that he was marrying his daughter, because he's just a scientist and he's working on these things and blah, blah, blah. Then the accident happens and become he becomes a Hulk. And the true side of Thaddeus, the idea of seeing this thing that could possibly be a weapon, comes out. I don't care for I would like to have it where it wouldn't have been a personal thing between him and Bruce, more of I gotta have what this is, because that's Thaddeus' whole point, is he's trying to make a super soldier. And I would have even gone as far as the the um Tim Ross character being friendly and a nice guy, like maybe a friend of Thaddeus' in the military, and the serum that they give him in order to try to capture the Hulk, kind of like what the movie did, is the thing that makes him go bad, and not so much him being power hungry. I would have liked that the stakes would have been higher. The idea that you see this group of people that's becoming a family get torn apart by this accident, and you feel bad because clearly the accident isn't something that should be used like Sadious wants to use it, and then you could have had the exact same movie and skipped over this him in hiding in the first place, and you would have ended the movie with him in hiding instead of starting the movie with him in hiding and ending it with him in hiding, you would have started a movie with a complete true origin of really establishing who they are and what it means to each other. So later, those moments of almost hurting each other, almost killing each other, of bad things happening. You felt that deeply because you know 45 minutes ago, you saw them all sitting at a picnic having a great time. I think that I think this movie needed that, and I think that they should have taken a chance and done that, and they should have visually made that more appealing and fun and taken more chances on that end of it, personally. But my biggest hot take is the 2003 Hulk movie is way better than this movie, way better than this movie. And if I were Marvel, I would have never made this movie. This wouldn't have been number two. I'd have done all the movies except for this one, and then when you get to Avengers, when you go meet Bruce Banner, it should have been Eric Banner sitting there on the floor, and they should have used not only was this movie better than this one, the Hulk movie in 2003 better, but they should have used that movie as the jumping off point for the MCU and then kept Jennifer Connolly as Betty as well. And I would I'm gonna say this right now I would have rather them do that and keep Sam Elliott as Stadius Ross and then keep William Hurt, and it's got nothing to say bad about William Hurt, but if it means continuity, Sam Elliott's just as good. Written better for sure in that original. That would have been the first time that we as an audience would have been like, oh, that's cool. They took a movie that wasn't good and they made it better because we could just not think about it and just throw it in here. Now, yeah, that means Mark Ruffalo's not the Hulk going forward in my my world. But as a hot take, that'd have been the dice I would have rolled back then. Would I have been wrong? I don't know. I think Eric Banner is a great actor. I think we could have got a lot of good stuff out of him, just like we have Ruffalo. I'm not saying that Ruffalo should be, shouldn't have had the role. I'm just saying that if it was if I was Fuggy in that position, that'd have been my decision, and that's what the MCU would have looked like from my point of view. Which I'm sure a lot of people would be like, hell no. But I don't know. Go watch that first Hulk again, that 2003 Hulk. It's not that bad. There's moments, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying it's perfect. We can pick it apart when it we're going to eventually. We're gonna get to it. The whole dogs and all that, yeah, it's ridiculous. Ridiculous, right? Yeah, but that's hidden and his dad, it's a much deeper. Everything that they said they were worried about in the beginning of that movie is everything this movie needed. The darker, more psychological, more action. This movie lacked. You know what I mean? It needed more action, it needed to be more darker, it needed to be more psychological, and it would have been a better movie. So, all the stuff they were worried about in pre production is the stuff this movie needed, which is also kind of what makes me, yeah, let's see the Norm cut. What are we lacking? Maybe his ideas is what we were lacking. You know, I don't know, it's hard to say that we have no idea what that looked like. I don't know what was cut out. I'd love to see uh I'd love to find the behind the scenes thing of him detailing, well, this is what I had that they cut out. Because we've saw what they did with uh what studios have done with other movies. Like another good example of Suicide Squad. I mean, that's a whole different movie with Jared Leto as a Joker. I still another big hot take. Guys, we'll talk about it someday when we get the DCU stuff. I I still think the Jared Leto Joker has potential and everyone doesn't like it. But what all you have is what you saw on a trailer, you don't have what you actually could have seen. His whole role was nothing but a giant trailer because they cut him out so much. And I wonder if that's what happened to this movie, really. Because everything that they say was lacking, the other one had already. And the special effects weren't as good. But you're also talking how many years earlier 2003, 2008. Yeah. But there's some awesome scenes in that first movie, man. When he's tearing those tanks apart in the desert, he jumps higher, he gets bigger as he gets angrier. Jennifer Connolly's way more believable. There's a love interest between the two of them. I love the scene when he's looking in the mirror in the bathroom and he smears the thing and he's having a dream and he sees the Hulk face. Or just him turning into the Hulk for the first time, walking down the corridor. That the it's it's it's desperate. There's a desp there's a desperate there of oh, this is bad, whatever's happening is not good. And it was darker, and when he was changing, you felt it. Yeah, no, I think there was a big mistake. Truth sweet. That's my hot take is out of not only is the 2003 Hulk better than this movie, but it should have been the movie they used for the Avengers. Hot take. I'm sure definitely got not a lot of people that agree with it.

SPEAKER_02 2:57:40

Who knows? It's definitely gonna make me chew on that for a little bit and be like, huh. What would that look like? You know? Um my hot take is something I think you've already mentioned it before. Um it's just that this movie is non-consequential and therefore it's not needed. Yep. I feel like they did it just to do it type thing.

SPEAKER_00 2:58:02

If we just pretend this movie never happened and we got to the Avengers, it just wouldn't it wouldn't have made a difference at all.

SPEAKER_02 2:58:07

No, it wouldn't.

SPEAKER_00 2:58:08

Yeah. Oh, yeah, that's sad, right?

SPEAKER_02 2:58:11

Uh yeah, it it it it is sad because they poured a lot of time and money and uh thought into doing this movie, but it just didn't pan out. And they were so afraid of not repeating what the other movie did, whether it was good or bad, that they end up making decisions that made this movie to a degree a little bit worse. And it's almost like, yeah, how do you if see if Hulk was like Spider-Man in that um he still had a lot of potential? I think you have seen Universal kept the Hulk rights and do something with him all the time, you know, do what they did with Sonyu and Spider-Man that they're never gonna let those rights relapse because they don't they know it's profitability. Universal. I'm actually shocked they just didn't decide to just cut ties with it because I don't think they're getting any money from any of Mark Ruffalo stuff, because that's all Disney and they don't distribute any of it. The only reason is because it's not a Hulk-centric movie, yeah. So then they don't have any rights to it. So it's almost like just negotiate the same deal that they have with the Spider-Man stuff. No, exactly, and it makes it makes me wonder if if the rights issue wasn't an issue and they decided to go with the change of Mark Rufflo, would we have gotten a sequel to The Incredible Hulk within the second or third phase because Mark Rufflo did show he was popular in the Avengers movie, and to try to see his version of a solo movie, then it makes me wonder how what they'd have done, a solo version of it, would have been good as compared to him being part of other people's movies and just continuing the story that way. So it's I don't know. Those are all big questions that I know that Mark Ruffle has said even to this day, if there was a way to do it, they would be doing it right now because he wanted a solo movie. But I and there are speculations out there that he they do have the full rights back, but there's no desire to do one. Yeah, so I don't know. We'll find out if something shakes down within the next couple of years or not. I'm not expecting Incredible Hulk 2 to come in 2029 onward with these new release dates that are out there, you know.

SPEAKER_00 3:00:26

Oh, I I don't expect that at all either. You know, the well they they've already made their Incredible Hulk 2 in a in a Captain America movie, so you know it's that's that's that's kind of the only the way the exact movie. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, or no, with with uh well, yeah, sorry, I guess, but but the the most direct sequel to this is Breakers.

SPEAKER_02 3:00:46

Oh that one, yes. Oh yes, I forgot about that.

SPEAKER_00 3:00:49

It's a Hulk movie, right? Like this bad. It's a Hulk movie featuring the fake Captain America. We'll get there, folks. Yeah, we will, and uh which I think most people agree, to be honest, about that. Yeah. So I have a question for you. What's the next movie after this? Iron Man 2 is the next one afterwards. Is the next one, okay? Yeah. So I mean, it's the best place for this movie to be then, right? Because do you think if it was before Iron Man, would the MCU be what it is today? No. Do you think if it was the third one in, would it be what it is today?

SPEAKER_02 3:01:26

I want to say yes. Because at that point they've already had two successful movies under their belt that they had a little stumble still in the beginning, whether this was number two or number three. If this was after the first Avengers, I don't know, because they already dropped the football with the the Mandarin. That if this was like right after Iron Man's. Yeah, but there's still a good movie. It was a good movie, but there was enough of us.

SPEAKER_00 3:01:56

But there's that's a good movie around it. This is a different story, right? Yeah. I yeah, I don't know. I think because of sandwich between two. Iron Man 2 was gonna make the money, no matter what, because Iron Man 1's awesome. And whatever people say about Iron Man 2, we're gonna we're gonna have a good that's gonna be a fun one too. Because I personally like that one a lot.

SPEAKER_01 3:02:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:02:17

Um, I think that this movie was the one mistake Marvel made in their first 20 years that they just kind of let's just pretend we didn't make that movie, let's not even talk about it. Yeah, let's not even think about it. Yeah, you know, and I think that's it's probably some of the reason why Captain Arcan sucked. Because it reminded us of wait a minute, oh yeah, that's right.

unknown 3:02:37

Oh, that's why it sucks.

SPEAKER_02 3:02:38

Well, at least there's consistency there. There's something sucked there, and we're just revamping the suckiness into another sucking movie. Yeah, but we don't need another Transformers franchise, though. That was a hot take right there. I actually enjoyed that franchise. Now I finally watched it, anyways. All right. Um, where are we at? Oh, yes. Let's let's wrap this guy up because I think we're already going on long questions here. All right, here we go. Let's do this, then we get to our final multiverse score. All right. Um, quick fire, answer fast, don't overthink. Best scene in the movie for you.

SPEAKER_00 3:03:15

Best scene in the movie for me is when he does that cool freaking flip after the Hulk hits him into the tree during that fight. And then he's the same. It's so awesome. Their their little fight there, right there, of him holding the doors and all that. Awesome. Him and Belaski, they're from them fighting while he's still a human is my favorite stuff.

SPEAKER_02 3:03:32

Yep. That's that's good. Mine minus stupid, so I'm not even gonna mention it. No, you gotta say no. I wrote on here Betty stopping the Hulk from killing the abomination. I know. Just because of the humanity thing. All right. Least best scene. The worst scene. Betty stopping them from killing the abomination at the end of the movie. Oh, I didn't even write anything for there because there's a lot of there's a lot of bad scenes. I couldn't pinpoint one.

SPEAKER_00 3:03:58

But, anyways, best villain moment. I like the conversation him and Thaddeus have when he talks him into letting him do the super soldier serum before they, you know, before they go find him at the college. There's a moment where they're talking and he says, No, remember, there's there's a lot of this and that. And he there's a neat the way he is there. He's very manipulative to him. If I'm gonna jump into I don't care that he's a bad guy from the start, but if that's what we're gonna get, then I do like that he's he's a bad guy that knows when to be nice to get what he wants. And then I I I thought he did awesome, because I I considered him really the villain villain of the movie, you know. Obviously.

SPEAKER_02 3:04:36

Yeah, yeah. Well, I was gonna say from my best villain moment was when he made Samuel's turns turn him into the bomb. Oh, yeah, yeah. Because that was pure. I just want whatever the Hulk has, it doesn't matter. I want to supercharge the super soldier serum that I got right now, and and he made him do it. Yeah. So that's true villainy right there. All right, most punchable face. So I got two.

SPEAKER_00 3:04:57

One's Betty Ross. Just punch her right in the face. She's cheating, she's just she just whines all the time. You know, she don't care. Okay, but the real one, though, I think we're the same. So I'm just gonna say it. That guy at that factory that cornered that girl, punched that guy right in the face.

SPEAKER_02 3:05:14

Yes. I immediately thought there's that sleazy factory work.

SPEAKER_00 3:05:18

No, not just the character, but just look at his face. He just wanted I just want to punch that guy.

SPEAKER_02 3:05:23

Yeah, that could have been a hulk punch. Like his fist should have just become green. Just a green fist. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:05:29

Yeah. Oh, I can do that. They're just parts of me.

SPEAKER_02 3:05:33

Oh, that's kind of cool. Yeah. All right. One prop you take home. So I got a funny one.

SPEAKER_00 3:05:39

I would like to get a bottle of the soda.

SPEAKER_02 3:05:42

That would be cool. Yeah, I should have thought about that. That'd be cool. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:05:46

I don't care for that in the movie, but I think that'd be a cool prop from the movie.

SPEAKER_02 3:05:49

That would be a great prop.

SPEAKER_00 3:05:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:05:50

Yeah. I put the flash drive on the lanyard.

SPEAKER_00 3:05:53

That's good too.

SPEAKER_02 3:05:54

I like that too. Until I found out that he ate it and pooped it out. Then I was like, I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_00 3:05:59

I'm just gonna say, is it pre-pooped or I would I would have brought the pre-pooped version?

SPEAKER_02 3:06:02

Pre-pooped, the pre-ingestion version.

SPEAKER_00 3:06:05

Because one's just hanging, the other one's like in a baggie. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:06:08

But I want the lanyard version one.

unknown 3:06:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:06:10

Yeah, that's great. I think those would look good on the table. You know what I mean? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:06:14

Oh, yeah, totally. All right. Um most underrated moment and most overrated moment if you have one.

SPEAKER_00 3:06:22

Oh, most underrated moments. See, this is a tough movie to do. Overrated moments the entire film. Um yeah, because it's awful. Uh but the un underrated, I would still yeah, I wouldn't. I don't think it's underrated, though. I don't know. I'm gonna have to go blank on these. Um, only because it's it's not a good film to do it for. Um, yeah, I agree with you on that one. Because it's tough, because it's none of it's in order to be overrated, it's gotta be a great moment that no one talks about, and we talk about all the great moments in this. And for it to be overrated, it's gotta be a moment that's you know, or I, you know, vice versa, basically. And neither of them work because anything that's not good, we are very open about not being good, you know. So I'm just that that's gonna be a couple skips for me, unfortunately, for this one. It wasn't that even a good enough movie for me to you know to put those in for fun.

SPEAKER_02 3:07:16

Yeah, yeah. I'm I'm gonna skip the underrated and overrated thing because it's I I feel the same way for you. I couldn't even think of something to put down in my pre-notes. So uh funniest moment for you. I had two, but only one of them I would say is my my most funny moment. But anyways, where are yours? If you had any moments. I I mine is one of yours. Because there's very little comedy in the state.

SPEAKER_00 3:07:38

There's not a lot at all. So but mine is one of yours, and that's that's the comparing the pant sizes. Yeah, I thought that was just funny. Yeah, because you're trying to figure out what to wear, and it's funny. Yeah, because that's definitely something we wonder. It's like, how do they keep his shorts on and stuff? You know, it's like yeah, so at least this pandex makes sense.

SPEAKER_02 3:07:55

Yeah, and I he he picked them up, then he looked at the woman behind him who has a very big booty and he put it up to her and be like, Will it fit that? Then it'll fit me. Yeah, yeah. That's just funny. Um anticipating changing again, too. On top of that, it's kind of a neat little tidbit. Yeah, I agree. He doesn't want to be naked when he does it. Right. Totally good at um, so I did put that as one of them. But my the only one that I would say that I actually laughed out loud with was the cab scene where Betty and Betty is telling Bruce to remain calm. We're gonna get there. Then the cab driver acts like a cab driver, going berserk on the road to the point where he's he's staying calm and she's not. And the gal, the it's the only time one of the only times I hear Liv Tyler actually yell as they get out. She says, Are you out of your mind? And she shuts the door. I'm like, Okay, I actually laughed at that one. So I thought, there you go, someone who's supposed to be the calmest one and acts the calmest one mostly because of her demeanor, all of a sudden, is the one who's yelling. Yeah, so I laughed at that one. So because I laughed, it's my funniest moment.

SPEAKER_00 3:08:57

Most emotional moment for you. So this is another tough one because I think this is where this movie fails. Is there's a lot of lack of emotion that makes sense. I will say there's a couple scenes between Betty and her father that are heartbreaking. And it's as close as it gets to me caring. So yeah. Yeah. I can't pinpoint specifically which ones. But any of those aren't they're never really that good between the two of them. You're kind of like, oh, let's say it. Because it's you know, it's over this whole thing.

SPEAKER_02 3:09:28

So all right. Um, the only emotional moment I would say is um it's just on a character perspective, is Bruce is longing for a normal and simpler life with Betty. Uh, because that that that is pretty evident throughout most of this movie. He wants to get rid of the hulk so he could go back to the life that he had before. And so um that's the only emotional that that's more of an emotional perspective. That's not an actual scene or thing that happened that you can see in the movie because like you said, they lacked a lot of that. A lot of that depth in them.

SPEAKER_00 3:10:00

There wasn't much we really understood what they all stood for, or you know, what was there, yeah. It was it was tough to follow that.

SPEAKER_02 3:10:08

All right, so uh multiversal meter final score. All right, the story out of two, what would you give it? It's got a one. I even put the Hulks in the movie. I put mine at zero just for the story part. I know I think I originally wrote two, but I did I changed it to zero. Um, because the story really wasn't that good. Characters for you. I'm keeping mine at two to two out of two.

SPEAKER_00 3:10:38

But I'm going 0.5. Yeah, because it's this is where our problem is. Is they're all just boring. Except for one or two. And I and I don't think that it holds up enough for that. So point five. Okay. Action and visuals. That's a that I'm gonna give that a solid three. Oh, oh, two. Yep, I'd like I like the action. And like we've said, visually, there's some real stunning shots that you if you just took a shot of, it could almost be a poster. You know. Um, so I'll give I'll give it its props there.

SPEAKER_02 3:11:13

All right. Um, emotion and stakes.

SPEAKER_00 3:11:16

That's I mean, that's a 0.5. If there isn't a I mean, I would go zero, but there's at least somebody talking about something in the movie. So I can't say zero. So someone's concerned about something in the movie, I gotta give it a 0.5 because I could care less about the rest of what they're talking about.

SPEAKER_02 3:11:31

I was gonna give it a zero, but I agree that has to be something. I get it. It's a 0.5. Rewatchability and the MCU impact. That to me deserves a zero because there really isn't that much of a rewatchability unless you're you haven't watched it for a long time and you just want to rewind the movie.

SPEAKER_00 3:11:47

Yeah, I can go the rest of my life and never see this movie again.

SPEAKER_02 3:11:49

And MCU impact? None. There is there really is none.

SPEAKER_00 3:11:52

Yeah, I'm with you. You talk. I was gonna give it a one just because it's a movie and I've seen worse movies and I've sat through worse, but uh I if unless we're doing this, I'm not watching this movie again. You know, so yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:12:07

And I agree with you what you said in the very beginning of the segment is that um when we did our countdown of number one to number 55, where we are at the the MCU movies, we were a little more favorable to this movie. And um in retrospect, watching it and doing a deep dive on it and everything. I know when we get to that again and we redo it and we do it for you as the audience, that has definitely gone down a peg or two from where I had it in my initial. And we could tell you uh when we get to that point where we initially had it, but then after doing this whole um was it, Road to Doomsday we're doing that. This is uh definitely one of those that we have to make an adjustment. So, all right. What would you say is your final score?

SPEAKER_00 3:12:54

So, do we have to do it by the math of what we just did?

SPEAKER_02 3:12:57

Because uh I don't think we have to do it by math. I'm gonna use to the best of my knowledge of my very little math abilities um to figure out the official Goodell multiverse score based off your score and mine, but I just went off gut instinct when I was looking at all these and seeing what where I would fall.

SPEAKER_00 3:13:14

Because if by the math, I'd give it a five, but my heart tells me that's way too high. Um, yeah. I'd show oh man, this is what sucks because I feel bad now when we did our it's funny how fast our big list is gonna change. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:13:28

Um I gave mine a three out of ten. Which I think is being a little generous only because of the action visual effects for me.

SPEAKER_00 3:13:42

Yeah, I'm I'm gonna give it a two. 2.5.5 out of ten. I think there's worse movies than this. Um, but it's right there. It really is right there. In fact, it's right there where it almost companions uh the Captain American movie in my way. In a way. If you want to watch a good crappy double feature, do it. That's your double feature right there. Yeah, I'm gonna have to I'm gonna have to give it a 2.5.

SPEAKER_02 3:14:20

So if I average your score or my score, this movie is about a about a 2.5 is the official multiverse score. Okay. Does that make sense? I think. And believe it or not, ladies and gentlemen, there are movies that are worse than this.

SPEAKER_00 3:14:37

So yeah, not many though, to be honest. But there are there are a couple where it's like, oh lordy. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:14:44

Yeah. So if you think this is a harsh reading, wait till you get to those other episodes. All right.

SPEAKER_00 3:14:50

But we're also not here to not be harsh. This the idea is to watch these multiple times and be very honest about how they hold up. And this one just it it if you ask me before we rewatch this, it was way it was way better in my memory. You know, it should have stayed there because now that I've watched it twice in a week, I'm like, oh my, you know, this is not what I thought it was. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:15:14

Uh, do you have a one-sentence final verdict?

SPEAKER_00 3:15:17

Yeah, uh, you don't need to watch this. Don't waste your time. Yeah. You know, uh there's there's other things to watch. Uh, if you want to watch MCU stuff, this one you can skip. That's my one line. It's out of MCU. This one you can skip.

SPEAKER_02 3:15:34

Yep, I agree. My my one sentence, one word, hyphenated, non-consequential. Yep, forgettable. Yep, yep. And it's that's pretty sad in retrospect when you're thinking about it. Because when I was getting started to watch this, I'm like, okay, I'm ready. I'm gonna see all the flaws, all the stuff. And I remember my original list was oh, it's pretty not high up on our Marvel list, but it was a good spot, a moderate spot. And then I'm watching, I'm like, oh, I got through it one time. I'm like, well, let me rewatch this again and see, is it my perspective? Maybe I wasn't paying attention right, and it was hard to re-watch. Yeah, that's that's pretty sad for because a Marvel movie you could just turn on in the background while you're working at home and you're still up with it, and it's just you could turn on, not get bored with it. Excuse me. But Incredible Hawk, unfortunately, it did not have that revolutionity factor.

SPEAKER_00 3:16:27

You know, I even was so naive too going into this. Me too. Because I I had this above the turnals on my big list. Oh no, what a mistake that is. I also look at my list, but I'm thinking, no man, I feel you know, it's awful. And I feel bad for this. Like, like I said, we're not here to downsize movies for the movie.

SPEAKER_02 3:16:46

No, we're just here to get an honest review of these movies. If any people who are watching this that have that creative control of not repeating this, this is why you should hear your two cents from two super fans like us. And we want these movies to be good. Yeah, because if they're good, then we get good stuff to watch, right? Exactly. And I wanted I like the Hulk lore. There's a reason why he became so popular. So I'd love to see a good adaptation of him. See him on the screen right there, the green hair, that's Doc Sampson. That's how much of a difference he is. Even in the cartoons, guys, see? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Come on. Anyways, so moving on, just to end this podcast episode. Thank you so much for joining us, guys. Um, we had fun discussing this. This actually went a little longer than our first episode, but we had, I guess we just had a lot to talk about for this. Yeah, yeah, that's okay though. Yeah, so our next episode, um, we're gonna be doing um a breakdown of the Daredevil Born Again season two, episodes two and three. We'll do the best we can to cover them in the shortest amount of time we can just to get on to our main topic, which is a retrospective view of Iron Man Two. Yeah. So exciting. Yeah, this is very exciting. So, like and follow us on Instagram and Facebook or on YouTube, of course, where you go watch the video. Version of the podcast as long as things taped well. Um, otherwise, you definitely can hear us on um like Buzz Sprout, Spotify, Apple Music, um anywhere you stream, Amazon. You can you can hear us now on our podcast, the Goodell Multiverse Podcast. If you have a question to us, email us at goddellmultiverse at gmail.com and we'll go from there. Um, do you have any closing remarks you want to say?

SPEAKER_00 3:18:26

No, I'm excited to do the next one.

SPEAKER_02 3:18:28

It's gonna be a better, probably better mood. Yep. But yeah, no, can't wait. All right. Well, thanks guys for tuning in and until next time.