Ep7 - Avengers 1 Retrospective with Daredevil BA S2 Ep6 Review

AVENGERS ASSEMBLE! The Goodell Brother discuss the news of the week including rumors circling around then breakdown Daredevil S2 Ep6 before segwaying into a full on in-depth discussion on the first Avengers film. Buckle up!

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:00

On every timeline in every universe, there's one thing that we always talk about. Marvel. Hello, everybody. Welcome to the Goodell Multiverse Podcast. I'm your host, Isaiah Goodell.

SPEAKER_09 0:14

I'm Sam Goodell.

SPEAKER_03 0:15

And thank you for joining us today. We have a big thing. We have a lot going on for you today. We're going to give you our agenda of what we got for our episode this time. And our agenda, we're going to have a multiverse minute. We got three really good stories from news that we really want to talk about with you. We're going to do a branch point breakdown of Daredevil season two, episode six. Is that correct? Yep. Season two, episode six. A very exciting one today, guys. It's that'll be a fun one to talk about. And then we're also going to do a retrospective of uh the first Avengers movie. This is a big one, guys. It's probably going to be split up into a two-parter, just so you know. We got a lot to talk about. I showed some of my notes before we started going, and he's like, oh my. So we got a lot to talk about. And we also are going to be, let me get the correct name of this just so I do it right. We have a new segment we're going to introduce right after our multiverse minute or 45 minutes. And that's going to be our rumor mill rundown. And basically, what that's going to be, guys, is we are online, always listening to things, whether it's YouTube or or other podcasters and stuff. And there's things that are rumors about what's going on in the Marvel stuff. And we we tend to talk hours about that stuff as well. So we kind of want to bring up some of those rumors. None of it's going to be factual. Obviously, there's no any kind of news behind it or any kind of, you know, it's all going to be speculation, but we'll be a lot of fun. We got some real cool topics today for you when it comes down to that. So I think we're going to go ahead and jump right into it and we're going to get into our multiverse minute.

SPEAKER_09 1:47

Yes. All right. Well, let's get going. All right, everybody. So we're going to start off with our news of the week, multiverse minute. So I will I will kickstart this off with the first thing that we want to talk about today. Um, Avengers Endgame is being re-released, as everyone knows officially, in September of this year. But what is new is it was revealed during the Cinemacon presentation about a week or two ago now, that uh there's gonna be new footage. Now, for a while, we thought, okay, we knew there's gonna be maybe deleted scenes, things like this, but the Rooster Brothers have officially confirmed this is new new footage. This is Avengers Doomsday production footage being put into Avengers Endgame. So we wanted to give our two cents about it because that's a big deal. You don't hear of movies going back in almost 10 years later and having to and doing new footage and now making it officially canon. So, Ike, what are your thoughts on this and what do you suspect this is gonna be?

SPEAKER_03 2:53

Boy, this is a tough one, Sam. I gotta tell you. Um, I want to like this because hey, more cool stuff that we get from the Russo is and and especially when it comes down to the Avengers, awesome. But the other part of me is like, what? What are we doing now? Mm-hmm. It this really just makes me feel more solidified, even more so that they're fixing a problem that they've had with the MCU since the end of Endgame. You know, I mean, arguably I'd say the only time they still had their crap together was probably with Spider-Man. You know, uh and that that'd be Spider-Man No Way Home, not no, that'd be Spider-Man Far From Home. Like No Way Home was a hip, but I still don't think they know what they were doing when they did that movie. Well, when it comes down to the bigger picture. Um what it so I when they I I I read some of this and I heard what he had actually said when he was talking, and he actually said it's essential for Doomsday. Now that's a big word, man. Like when you say essential, which means you're telling me I gotta go watch two movies to see Doomsday now? I don't know if I can afford that. Like I want, I mean, we would, because that's just it. We're hooked, they got us, right? But that can be to me feels like, oh, you didn't read the fine print, so you got an extra, extra bill, right? I don't like that. I'm not a fan. I mean, what is it that could possibly be in it that is so essential that I need to know going forward?

SPEAKER_06 4:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:25

Like especially that far back. It's not like, you know, hey, by the way, we're gonna release like a little hour special on our thing or on our you know, on Disney Plus that you should probably see because it's gonna give some fun doom stuff. No, this is a whole this is a movie that how long ago was Endgame?

SPEAKER_09 4:42

2019.

SPEAKER_03 4:43

Guys, what are we talking about here?

SPEAKER_09 4:45

Yeah, we're going back eight years. Right, eight years. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:48

And are we talking uh extended scene? Is this just I mean, are we gonna go see the same movie with maybe some extended cut scenes, which would be neat to see? I I would. I mean, God, I went to see the Lord of the Rings extended cuts in the theaters. Took a long time, but I saw them, you know. Yeah, I would do that for these movies as well. I'd watch a four-hour cut Ven game if that's what they got out there somewhere. Not thinking though it's gonna change where we are now, though. Just think I'm getting more. I mean, is it or is it just gonna be an added-on post-credit scene? Because if it's just that, then just put it in a trailer, guys. Like or put it in the movie you got coming out that we're gonna buy to see, anyways. Yeah. What can't you tell us in the movie that you got to tell us in Endgame, which makes me worried that is there something that they're gonna change in Endgame that's gonna make us feel differently about what happened in Endgame? That's that will bother the hell out of me.

SPEAKER_09 5:40

So Endgame is such a great movie. Arguably, you ask anybody whether they whether whatever they feel about any of the movies in phase four, five, and six, and all that stuff, some hits, some misses, all that stuff, but the majority of people will say that uh Marvel has not been the same since Endgame. So now you're gonna go back to arguably your biggest movie of the whole franchise. And so when I first heard this, by the way, I thought, okay, they have deleted scenes. We knew they had deleted scenes, and so if that's what their gimmick to get us to go and see it, and we always knew the Russo brothers said that Endgame, this is doomsday is their version of a sequel to Endgame. But look at the casts that they have, they have the Thunderbolts in there, they have the Fantastic Four. So it's not like they're trying to wipe clean everything that happened in the past eight years now, they're utilizing them, but maybe for us to revisit Endgame and see, okay, they're trying to tell us there's a connection between the events of Endgame and the events of Doomsday. And so they're encouraging people with this Infinity Vision stuff going into theaters. Hey, we want you to re-watch it. We're gonna do a little bit of a campaign push for you to guarantee you're gonna watch it, and we'll make some more money on the side when you go and buy your tickets, which that is a big thing to ask. Avengers Endgame made close to three billion dollars, right? If not for something along the overall, yeah, it was the number one movie in the world for a long time until China re-released Avatar, whatever. But um, so people already proved they've watched this movie two or three times in the theaters already to make that much money. Yeah, so now and it's one thing to say, go and have a good time and re-watch it again, experience all that again in the theaters. That's cool. And us hardcore Marvel fans, we're gonna do it because we loved it. That was cool. But if they're saying that the new footage is doomsday footage and this is a masterpiece of a movie, what does this what does this mean?

SPEAKER_01 7:44

Is and essential was his word.

SPEAKER_09 7:47

Yes, it's essential for you to watch this in order to watch Doomsday, which that makes me think, okay, what happens if someone skips Endgame because they don't want to sit through a three and a half to four hour movie? Because let's face it, new footage on an over three-hour movie already, you're pushing that mark. Uh, for us in America, that's some sometimes a tall, tall order to ask. Where if you go to places like Bollywood and India and things like that, they're used to three and a half, four-hour movies. Like that's part of their cinema. But over here, that was a big new thing because that's one of the reasons why uh Zack Snyder's Justice League didn't get approved. Because it was a four-hour movie, and you watch Endgame now, and you think, I could, and now you watch the Zack Snyder Justice League, you're like, we would have sent through the masterpiece, yes. So and that's hard for me to say about Zack Snyder, but yeah, it was it was good, but uh this stuff that that worries me. Uh I I assumed they were gonna do a post-credit scene. Maybe the whole post-credit scene is a good 20 minutes of what Steve did with the stones, because everyone has been asking, why haven't we seen something of that'll have been cool? And I won't be surprised that's in this movie. There's just an extended scene of Steve returning the stones, and along the way you find out what actually happens to him type thing. I don't know. Yeah, that still couldn't have been the beginning of Doomsday. That kind of you know, they have to be careful how they do that because Steve ended on such a good note, and bringing him back messing up a movie. This is uh this and I'm not saying it is gonna be messed up, guys, because we don't know if they watch this and be like, oh, this was how it's supposed to be meant to be. But it does beg the question of how damaged do they think Marvel is if they have to go back to their three billion dollar masterpiece, redo scenes of it, like extended scenes of it. Like it's not uh on the chopping room floor, we're just gonna update the CGI and you're gonna get that Hulk and the rescue of the fire scene and all that wish they had. You're gonna get new stuff from I'm assuming Steve Rogers, Captain America, I'm assuming some of these other people. For all we know, Robert Down Jr. is playing Tony Stark again for an extended scene, a new scene. Like deleted scenes put into an extended director's cut version of a movie is one thing. That's cool. As we saw with Brian Singer's Days of Future Pass, that's sometimes needed. But going back through and re-chopping this up, however they're gonna do it, and I might sound dramatic at it, but it it does worry me. It worries me on how they are gonna do the doomsday movie because Kevin Feige's big thing is we don't need any more homework, but yet now you're gonna give us a three to four hour movie homework to make sure when we watch Doomsday, we know what's going on. That's what worries me.

SPEAKER_03 10:35

Yeah, and the issue, and here's my big issue is it's not so much them re-releasing it and saying, hey, look, we added some stuff in that might be fun for Doomsday when it comes. When you say things like essential, though, that makes guys like us and uh like anyone that's watching this go, well, we we gotta know what it is. We can't go into it not knowing then. You know, so we have to watch this movie. You know, so what are they gonna do? They're gonna pull. I'm already paying money to see this on Disney Plus, so are they just gonna pull Endgame off Disney Plus? And the only way you can see Endgame then before this movie is to go see it, or we're just not gonna see that version of the movie. So you're gonna have how many people out there? I worry, is this a ploy to just get the box office bigger than Avatar? Because if it is, you're still telling your fans this is essential viewing. It'd be one thing to say, hey, you know, for the fun of it, we want Endgame to be on your mind for the last thing on your mind, or the first thing on your mind, I should say, before you walk into Doomsday, because things in Doomsday are gonna make you go, oh, I'm glad I watch Endgame last. You know, that's not what you're saying. You're saying things in Endgame now, of whatever this re-release is, is essential for us to see in Doomsday. And I gotta be honest with you guys, what a kick, man. Like, I'm not gonna swear, but it I want to because it's like you're all we already know you're in cleanup mode. You can deny it all day. We know you are. Sorry, guys. I don't care what they say about oh no, no, we've talked, we've talked, no, you didn't. You you went running to the Russo's when you saw how bad things are going and they fixed it. But also now I'm worried about what does that mean for what we've gotten before? You know, I don't think they have any plans of red-conning anything we got from Endgame on.

SPEAKER_06 12:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 12:27

I don't think that's their goal. I think they've added a scene that is gonna be probably important enough for us to have to see. And and that bugs me. Uh, Robert Meyer Burnett said on John Campia, I watched this the other day, and on I hope he's right. I hope it is just a throwaway scene that is cool. That if you had it in your mind when you went and watched the movie, it adds some more to it, but you don't really need to see it, right? Yeah, because that just kind of how Brian Singer's Days of Future Past was. You can watch, not watch the road cut, and it's still just as good moving forward. Yeah, you can watch the road cut and it changes nothing moving forward, it just enhances the movie a little better, yeah, and it makes it a little more oh cool, at least that character was involved. Yeah, if that's what they do, fine, I get it, you know, but don't tell us essential to go on because and Robert he he had a real great Robert Meyer. I want to give Robert Meyer Burnett credit for this, but he said, What if it's the post-credit scene of uh Doom killing uh the other universe's version of Thanos? And I'm like, that would be cool because we'd we'd see a power set of his.

SPEAKER_09 13:33

Yeah, that wouldn't be detrimental to Doomsday.

SPEAKER_03 13:36

And it wouldn't matter if I saw it or not, because we're gonna see it also in Doomsday, how powerful he is. I think the worst thing it can be is Cap taking the stones back because that's big. To me, that should have been an eight-episode show, or how many stones were there? That should have been that many episodes of a show. Yeah, that's what it should have been. If you were gonna do a TV show, that's the TV show I wanted was a Captain America returning the stones show.

SPEAKER_06 14:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 14:02

And just the fun adventure of whatever that would have been. Because I would have loved to see his face when he saw Red Skull, like, oh my, you know what I mean? Like it would have been neat, you know. But to gloss, and that to me is something you could do 10 minutes, the first 10 minutes of Dunesday is show cap taking the stones back. Because you're not hiding Cap already. We're all over the place in the marketing. So it's not like showing him the beginning of the movie is a surprise. We know he's coming. So just open the movie with him leaving on the time machine, and we'd be like, oh my god, what's going on? Thinking that we've skipped a bunch of stuff and to just show that happen and then something, you know, whatever mystic thing or whatever, you know, and doom or whatever. You know what I mean? Like, either way, don't this feels like I gotta go see this. I don't know. I gotta tell you, I almost might not, just in spite, but it's gonna be itching.

SPEAKER_09 14:46

We don't want to sound like Debbie Downs. We plan on going to see this anyway. We're gonna we were gonna go see it anyway. So to put more optimistic spin on this, because we we're we're getting off on uh oh, they're probably gonna ruin something that we like, which we I will I'm gonna give the Russo brothers credit until I see them actually do something that will make me believe that can happen. Yeah, we can't deny this doesn't feel desperate though.

SPEAKER_03 15:10

It does feel desperate. I don't know what the angle is, whether it's the box office numbers for beating Avatar or and this is just their way of sticking it to them, which you could have got us to do that by just telling us to. Because we want to stick it to them. We don't need extra footage to do it.

SPEAKER_09 15:24

Yeah, you know, but so for for me, if I had to go through a checklist of the green green check marks being good and a red X being okay, hold on a moment. Uh re-releasing Endgame because they want us to re-watch it in preparation for doomsday, not because it's essential, but just because it's a fun watch and get that experience again. Green check mark, great. Yeah, adding some deleted scenes, scenes that are left on a cutting room floor, or even filming an extended scene that doesn't change the quality of the movie, it just enhances it. Green check. That sounds cool for me. I'm always down for more endgame.

SPEAKER_06 15:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_09 15:58

Uh trying to test out this new Infinity Vision rollout in September in preparation for Doomsday and using one of their number one movies to do so. Green check mark. That sounds cool. I'm all for it. Where it gets to the red X's is you have to watch this movie in order to get this main storyline of Doomsday. I don't, I want to say I don't think they're gonna do that, but Marvel, unfortunately, you've given a bad taste in some of our mouths where we have to watch the TV shows in order to get the movie, and vice versa, and that's what we didn't want anymore. And Kevin Feige, you specifically said, I don't want this to be homework anymore. So if this really is that, that part that worries me, you've given us a cramming for a test that no one is ready for. You're giving us the biggest amount of homework any teacher has given for a fan. And that's it better. Yeah. That and that basically is how we're gonna end this part, guys. We want to know what you think. Do you um agree with our concerns? Do you think we're being a little too pessimistic, or is there should be a more optimistic tone that you guys are gonna have that we should be having, and we'll try to be more optimistic, of course. But you know, this is endgame. This is the crown jewel of everything that the MCU has spent over a decade building, and now you're going back to reshape it to get ready for another film that is your cleanup film for the past eight years. That's the that's where the concern comes from. So this is all love. It comes nothing, um, it's all from our hearts that we're just concerned. So, what do you guys think? Do you agree with us? Do you disagree with us? We want to know. Please comment below and share your thoughts. Yeah, absolutely. All right, what's our next thing we're talking about?

SPEAKER_03 17:43

All right, guys. Let's go into something a little more, a little more delightful, I guess, or something. I could be a little hard on, I could be hard on them, guys, but that's it's how I feel about it. Um, but we're actually gonna give you the first DC news that we've decided to do. We aren't gonna jump into any DC retrospective movies, guys, until after we've finished our Marvel journey, which includes a lot of Marvel movies beyond the MCU. Um, but we we and you know, we I don't know if that's gonna stay that way. We might jump in back and forth with DC after we get done with the MCU, but right now we're sticking with the MCU proper until we get to Doomsday. Um, but we do want to stay up on it because it's big and we do love this stuff, and you know, we we want to talk about it. So with that said, James Gunn's DC Studios releases the body horror trailer to the clay face, due to release this October.

SPEAKER_09 18:33

October. What a great time to release a semi-horror looking type um or vibe movie.

SPEAKER_03 18:40

Fall has always been my favorite time for horror. It's my when I'm at home, that's when I watch horror movies, man. I have a I have a stack of horror movies that are essential. Every year I watch all the time, every year during that time of month. And it's just you know, it's it's the end of things. Things are dying, it's scary time, it's Halloween. It's a great time for something spooky like this. So, Sam, what'd you think of the trail? You literally just watched it not too long ago.

SPEAKER_09 19:04

Uh it's been a busy week, folks. So when it dropped, I didn't have time to watch it or do a quick reaction video online like I was hoping I would when this does happen. But like I said, this is not our job to do the Goodell Multiverse is a hobby of ours that we're happy you're able to watch and listen and just enjoy our conversation, you know. So uh I did just watch it right before cameras for us started rolling. I wanted it freshen my brain too, and I also wanted to um give my two cents on it. Anyone who knows me knows I am a Marvel nerd, number one. But the one thing of DC that I always will say can trump a lot of Marvel stuff is the Batman universe. Oh yeah. I love Batman. That's one character for Superman just doesn't do it too much for me. He's cool, I get it, but yeah, he doesn't do too much for me. Wonder Woman, I love her, but I don't know too much about her lore, so uh it's stuff I'm learning uh all the all the time. And by the way, Gal Godot, and she makes it easier for me to watch it because she's just an amazing, beautiful woman. Just gotta say it. Um, but Batman, he uh part of my French, he is the shit of DC. Oh, he is well he's he's a shit across the board. He is Batman wins every time. My gosh, there's a reason why so many great actors have been able to portray him and he's been keeping up this fan base. You can get different flavors of him in this rogue gallery, like I've said before in this podcast, compared to Spider-Man, there's a huge rogues gallery. They are cool. Speaking of which, Clayface is a Batman villain. So this is the Batman universe. This is our first glimpse into James Gunn's DC's studios Batman, because he still has yet to announce who his Batman's gonna be to the Superman that he already released. Um but I'll be honest, guys, this is my concern. Um, and DC doesn't have to do this, and maybe I'm gonna be proven wrong. I know that Ike's probably gonna um have a a good conversation with me about this because he's a little more optimistic of this than I am. But I smell a Sony verse coming on with stuff like this. Call it a hot take if you want. I watched the trailer, I thought it was good. It wasn't too horror-y, just the way that it was cut, but also it it feels like you what you did with Madame Webb and with Morbius, you did a villain of a hero, but they are not gonna have the hero in there. Now, unfortun the fortunate thing is they have the opportunity in this because they own all the characters, and there's no rights issues and um things that they can and can't say. So clayface can mention Batman all he wants, and that's cool, that's fine.

SPEAKER_10 21:40

But Clayface is a C level villain that you are putting into a feature film releasing into theaters.

SPEAKER_09 21:51

So say what you want about uh whether you liked or didn't like Madame Web, you might be one of the five people on the planet that. Really, really liked it, and good for you. It's your taste. You might be one of the five people that are gonna be going into this movie saying it's probably gonna be one of their best movies ever because you like the body horror stuff. Good for you. And that's my observation is I I don't think there's a lot of hype to this movie. I think it's actually kind of weird. They're doing a clay-face movie in the Batman universe before establishing your Batman. I I don't know. It might be a sleeper hit, it might be one of those. It reminds me of the Joker. The Joker movie, the first one, did a great job. Walking Phoenix, great job. I haven't personally seen it, but I see all the reviews, I see the money it made. They greenlit a sequel right away. The problem is there's only so long you could do with a villain that if you don't have that hero counterpart, as we saw Joker 2, which I didn't see it, but I saw the reviews. It was a complete 180.

SPEAKER_03 22:50

Hold on. Hot take here. You haven't seen the first Joker with it? I have not seen the first Joker. Wow. Yeah. You should watch it. But watch it and don't even think about Batman Joker stuff.

SPEAKER_08 23:04

No.

SPEAKER_03 23:05

Because they don't want you to. That's everybody out there that loves that at the first one. Why they don't like the second one is because they kept their promise on what that first one was, which was not a Batman movie. So everyone's all butthurt that the second one didn't follow through, but they told you it wasn't going to. So you don't have to watch it because it really is not the Joker, guys. They they did that as a ploy. They did they thought that'd be a fun character to make a backstory on, and they did, and they have fun with that universe stuff, but with no intentions of making you think of anything that has anything to do with Batman. So that's it's on you guys out there on why you think it's bad. It's not them because it's they're both good if you don't take them as Batman movies. Because that is good, it is good. He's really good in it, but it's not, it's not a Batman movie. It's just you just need there's like what would you do? And he tells you guys in the marketing, what would this character be like without all that stuff? And that's what they did. So it's like, what are you guys expecting? So that second one, yeah, it's weird. So was the first one. Anyways, yeah, we should talk about that. Maybe that'll be a future movie we watch, guys.

SPEAKER_08 24:13

Oh, we we will because it is really good, it's a really good movie.

SPEAKER_09 24:19

Do some retrospectives of those two. But so my reaction to the Clayface trailer to blow it all down is it's okay, it's nothing I'm clamoring to see, and just knowing what I know of the Batman lore, I'm not predicting it's gonna do well.

SPEAKER_03 24:34

So okay. Well, I'll tell you my thoughts about it, and I'm I'm I kind of want to counterattack a little bit. Not not attack, but I definitely want maybe I can sway your mind and make it feel at easy. Yeah, well, make it feel a little at ease because I don't think you're wrong in everything you said. I do think this is a strange pick for the first one. Um, that I let me say this about the trailer straight up. It's a little underwhelming. It's it's a fun trailer, it's pretty good, it's got some disturbing stuff in it, but it's like there's really but it is a teaser, so it's not really a big deal, right? It's not a lot to see. Um, I'm gonna warn everybody right now, this is not gonna be a scary movie. They're gonna sell this as a scary movie. There's gonna be horror elements in the movie, but you're still going to get a comic book movie. I promise you. When I watch this, I can see just in the undertone, they're just he they're just gonna play around with it's gonna be kind of like the Doctor Strange multiverse of madness. Everyone thought, oh, a Sam Raimi a touch of horror. Well, the little bit of horror touch you got in it was exactly the kind of stuff you're gonna get in this. Um, what I will say though is James Gunn excels at these C B C characters when it comes down to any that's you think of Guardians and all of them, and you think of the Suicide Squad that he did, the good one, you know, or the one that the studio let them make, Wink. Um because I will defend Jared Leto all day, we'll get their guys. Anyways, um, yeah, he I I trust James Gunn to take this character and make it interesting. I do agree with you though, it's not gonna make a lot of money. But I don't think he's worried about that right now. I same with like how when Superman came out. I think James Gunn and the studio understand that these movies need to not so much worry about the money as they need to the quality, because that was the problem before, which is why Marvel hired him back after their debacle with him, because it's like okay, we need this, we need Guardians 3 to still be as good as the other two. You know, I mean, I don't know how everybody feels about those two, but they're great movies. And in his quality of what he sees in these films is gonna be what what is the bigger deal. So this I don't think this movie took a lot to make, and I don't think it's gonna need to make a lot to break even. So I don't think it's gonna be, you know, make Superman money, but they didn't think Superman was gonna make the kind of money it did. And he didn't need Superman to actually, Superman could have lost money, and it still would have been a success as long as it was good. I have my trepidations about Superman, but ultimately though, it was it it was good enough to what you know, obviously look at the money, guys, look what it made. You know, and now Supergirl's coming right after it. And James said that they're looking at it as a script. When the script is finished and it's full and they know it's something and they have a plan, that's the movie that gets greenlit next. And I think that this movie just happens to be it's there, and and and that's how he's going to form his DCU universe is it's going to be we will construct the bigger story around the scripts in the movies that are ready to go and not force them to happen. And this is ready to go. So he goes, Well, this looks like it's going to be the first one in my Batman side, which it's either, once again, a huge risk, like a Sony verse kind of risk, or it might be genius. And why I say that is this might give us the best insight on what he might want to do when it comes down to his version of Batman. If you go way back in time when Batman was still just a young little bat, okay. The the it was the detective comics, is what they used to call them. And there is a long series, long-running series in those detective comics that reoccurs several different times throughout several. I mean, I don't know, I think there's over 300 different detective comics on Batman. And Clayface is his main villain. And that's when Batman was like, I'm a detective hardcore. The cops really, you know, I'm kind of becoming for he's kind of like the Robert Pattinson of that version, okay? And if that's the case and that's what he's going for, then that's the kind of Batman we're gonna get, is a Batman that is still learning to be Batman, still probably a young Batman-ish. I think we're gonna get a Batman that's been there for a few years, but he's also gonna be a super detective Batman. And Clayface is a kind of bad guy in those old detective comics I'm familiar enough with that he's reoccurring and he will find himself mixed in with other villains. In fact, there's an iteration of Clayface where Clayface is around before Bruce even becomes Batman. And if that's this movie, then we don't even need to talk about Batman because he's not a thing yet in this, right? And it might be this might be so is this is just low-level criminal, like he's just a guy that goes bad, starts killing people, does his thing, becomes clayface, and finds himself mixed in with people like the Joker. So it's either of it's either brilliant where he's gonna be a recurring side character that if technically, if you took the biggest Batman nerds out there and sat them down, I think Clayface is on their top five of his bigger villains out there. If you count those old, which I think we should, I think he wants us to, and I think this is his way of getting in that tone of I'm giving you the old school, you know, the detective comics Batman, which means his big villain before Joker, before Penguin, before Two Face was Clayface. And if that's the case, I'm kinda in, you know. Now, once again, the reception of it, we gotta see, right? Yeah, the trailer was underwhelming, but it's a teaser. Who knows? I'd like to see a little more. I think once we see the next trailer and we see like more what the story might be, we'll kind of get an idea, you know. Um that's kind of how I feel about it. I mean, that's that's the only rebuttal I have to you is have some hope. I I if we look at if we get cynical about it, then yes, this is like, why are we doing this? Like without why without Batman first, but maybe this is his way of I'm gonna get you ready for what I want you to feel like when you do get Batman. Because I have a feeling he's got uh I don't know, I'm gonna give James Gunn a lot of credit. I think he's got an ace up his sleeve. I think whatever idea he has about because you got to think about this, guys. We're how many movies in his DCU is Superman, Supergirls come on real quick. They've already started filming the next Superman.

SPEAKER_09 31:15

Yes, yeah, and just start like a day or two. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 31:18

And here we are. Here's the the teaser trailer to Clayface. That's we're talking five movies in, and we don't even know who Batman is yet. He knows Batman's important. He's not dumb. Like you don't do this DCU without knowing I gotta bring a Batman to the table. I think he's already got it set up. I think he's ready. I think he's waiting for the moment of this is I want to set you up, so when it happens, we're all gonna be like, oh well, here it is. Because he's done that with his other movies.

SPEAKER_09 31:46

So Harmony just wishes the Robert Pass and Batman was gonna be the Batman there.

SPEAKER_03 31:51

He's he's really good as Batman.

SPEAKER_09 31:53

That's the thing because he would need a winner like that to make sure his new DC studios is being strong, you know, running in strong. Like I'm not I'm not trying to diss the Superman movie. It wasn't really too much of my cup of tea. Right. My first reaction when I watched it is this felt like a sequel to a Superman movie that we never got to see the first one.

SPEAKER_03 32:12

Truth is though, it is the better of the Superman movies that's been out for a long time.

SPEAKER_09 32:16

So it is more engaging, I would say, than Man of Steel. I I like Man of Steel, but I was a little more engaged with this movie. It did feel more comic book y, which Superman for the type of character he is, he excels at that. Yep, yep. Um, he also excels at what um Zach Snyder did with Man of Steel as this god coming to earth. Like, what do we do? So it's an interesting twist um in both films, but anyways, um yeah, yeah, I'll be a little optimistic then. So the question is for you guys what do you guys think of this trailer? What is your reaction to it? Do you have any high hopes? Do you agree with Ike's statements or my statements? Let us know in the comments below. All right, so the last thing we have on our agenda for the multiverse minute will be uh Marvel Studios has announced they are coming back to San Diego Comic-Con Hall H after skipping 2025. They're coming back in 2026, which honestly, uh, I'm just gonna say this right up front, Ike. I did not expect that, to be honest. Um, so I'll let you give your two cents and I'll tell you what my my view is of this and what my speculations are.

SPEAKER_03 33:24

You know, I I have to be honest with you, I kind of forget their history with this a lot. Um, that Comic-Con was something, other than listening to any news that was online, I didn't pay attention to. I know they had some time where they didn't have some stuff because of they only had one movie out and all that. I'm not too surprised. They got a lot they're gonna want to show us. Um, what we're gonna get though, I don't know. You know, it it all depends on I think timing of things and you know, this might be the time to hear more cast members for stuff, you know. I'm not sure. Uh I'm glad they are because it it's it is specifically Marvel. I know Disney always has a big presence in general, but it does say that it's specifically Marvel that has. So, I mean, I'll be honest with you, if there is a time for them to kind of talk about what they're what they're really thinking about doing after uh um doomsday or after Secret Wars, this would be the time to say, look, these are the movies on our way, you know. Maybe without giving some spoilers either, but there's some we know are coming, right? We know X-Men's coming, you know. We know we know that stuff. So this might be the time where they use that to kind of give you that indication that by the way, after these movies, here's a few that we're looking forward to. They'll probably announce Blade again, because why not? Because they eventually want to make the movie.

SPEAKER_10 34:49

They do.

SPEAKER_03 34:50

Hersha Lee might have to use a walker by the time they do it, but they they might have to do it. So I mean, we'll have to see. Maybe there's some Deadpool news because I know there's a little bit of that floating around. So I mean it's you never know. Uh that'd be kind of cool, you know, or they'll probably give us some more TV show bull crap. So maybe who knows? But I bet you they do kind of give us a I if I had to guess, this really is more for after than it is what we're getting, because we're gonna get a lot more of what we're coming to, you know, coming out soon rather than later, you know, my opinion. But I think a presence anywhere, even if it's small, as is what they should keep doing.

SPEAKER_06 35:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 35:25

Yeah. I know Hall H is big though, so it's gotta be big. Yeah. You don't get Hall H unless you got something, right?

SPEAKER_09 35:30

Yes, and that's so usually historically for Marvel, they've used San Diego Comic-Con, which is the biggest Comic-Con in the world. Um, and Hall H in particular, which is a very huge. I haven't seen exactly full pictures of what this place is, it's just huge. Um that's where they do all their cast panels. It's when when they roll out the red carpet for what they're doing for the next three or four phases. Sometimes that's where they get that you know, we're nail biting, and um, us that are at home are just scrolling through live news feeds to say, oh, they announced this. Oh, what's this? The cast is out. This is all that, you know, that's when they announce all this stuff. Um I personally thought they were gonna skip it this year only because they're they are building up Doomsday, which yes, it's all filmed, and by the time this happens, any reshoots they are doing are gonna be done. And they're already starting to film Secret Wars. There is a rumor that by the end of this year, their first movie of the next phase is gonna start filming, but that's the end of this year. It's so when I go back historically, like back back in Endgame time. Okay, guys, spare with me again. Uh, Endgame came out in May of 2019. Spider-Man Far From Home came out in July 2019. It was literally neck and neck. Like they even did a special thing like a week and a half, or about at least a week uh after Endgame came out to say um you're gonna watch the trailer to uh Far From Home. Spoiler warning if you haven't seen Endgame yet, like they were so close they didn't release anything of Spider-Man until after that. Um and they already had started filming Black Widow, and it was right after Far From Home came out, they had Hall H at Comic-Con, and that's when they announced their whole slate. But Endgame was done. Uh Black Widow already started filming, but nothing was confirmed until they actually walked out, and it was the following year when it was gonna come out, so that all makes sense. And we're not getting a Marvel movie until after Secret Wars for the next phase, which is December of 2027. So I was not expect I was expecting them to skip this year. If anything, I would have expected them to do what they uh do last year because they were coming off at that time of three films they already did for the year. Fantastic Four was like a week prior to when this started, it came out, um, something around that those lines. So I expected something a little more than that. The last time they were here was in 2024, that's when they announced Robert Downey Jr., his Dr. Doom, and he had this big presence and everything. That was really cool. Um, so it this took me by surprise when this news came out because I was expecting them to skip this year, um and then next year, in preparation for Secret Wars, they would do a full-on presentation of by the way, after December, the first film you're gonna get in May of the following year is gonna be X-Men or whatever it's gonna be, you know.

SPEAKER_01 38:27

Um This is before Doomsday comes out, right?

SPEAKER_09 38:30

Like this is yep, yeah. This is July. Yeah, that's right. Middle to end of July this year, and Doomsday comes out like six months later. Um, that is right at that mark of a full trailer. You know, I agree to that.

SPEAKER_03 38:42

I agree with what you said that or the first 30 minutes of the movie, you know.

SPEAKER_09 38:46

Yep. I think that this is where we're gonna get a full-length trailer, other than what they've shown us CinemaCon, which I'm expecting any day now to drop, to be honest. Or another cast list. If anywhere, this would be the place to announce the cast because this is where this is where A-list casts that don't go to comic conventions will go to. Like when they announced Eternals and Angeline Jolie walked on stage, she doesn't go to Comic Con. She's one of those people that's like a Tom Cruise, like um a Brad Pitt. They don't go to those conventions unless it's part of their media tour type. Right. So this would be the place if they were gonna announce all these A-listers coming back for X-Men, all their Avenger characters, all that stuff. This would be the place they would announce it.

SPEAKER_03 39:29

Yeah, and you know, now that I do realize it is a six months out, it does make more. It I bet you it's it's doom heavy. I bet you with it's the Marvel, I don't I think that's all they're gonna focus on. I don't think that's a good one. You're probably gonna get some real cool spectacle come out. Robert's gonna do his thing, a good 20-minute show of him being Robert Downey, you know, and I bet you get a lot, I bet there's a question-answer with a whole group of actors up there. You may we get a couple surprise casting announcements, definitely a full trailer, 100% guarantee. I bet you the first five or eight minutes of the movie.

SPEAKER_09 40:02

Yeah, because this this even comes out before Spider-Man No Way or Spider-Man Brand New Day comes out because Spider-Man Brand New Day comes out on the um the 31st of July, and this usually is the second to third weekend of July when this happens.

SPEAKER_03 40:18

So they how they might even show Spider-Man. They might, to be honest, for the being that close.

SPEAKER_09 40:23

I mean, this is Marvel Studios doing this presentation, it's not Sony, so I don't know where all the rules and stipulations are, but I wouldn't be surprised if Sony's doing something, that would be where they're gonna do it. That's good where they're gonna announce Tom Holland's and Doomsday, folks. There you go.

SPEAKER_00 40:36

Hey, that'd be that'd be the place to do it too.

SPEAKER_09 40:38

Yeah, yeah, it's all speculation right now. But for me, just as a news bit on this, I was just surprised to to hear this. I was not, I would have thought of all the years to definitely skip would have been this one. I didn't think they were gonna skip last year, and they did. That surprised me because they're all leading up to Doom, all that stuff, and they had just started filming last year. So I'm like, oh, they got a teaser trailer already. They they think about it, guys. When they started filming Doomsday, we were about a month away from the Thunderbolts movie when they started. And the post-credit scene of Thunderbolts was Doomsday footage. The post-credit scene of Fantastic Four, two months later, was Doomsday footage. So part of me was like, Oh, they're gonna do Hall H last year. They got Doomsday footage literally in the bag, all done. So of course they're gonna do something. And they they skipped it. We're like, okay. So I was expecting, oh, this year they're gonna skip it too, because all that. But yeah, I think you're right. I think they're gonna make this doom centric. I don't think they're gonna touch phase seven, um, or whatever phase is next.

SPEAKER_03 41:40

Well, if he does touch, if he does touch the next, it's gonna be the ones that are obvious. Maybe we'll get the title of the first X-Men movie for an extra nugget. You know, you gotta remember, I I this isn't necessarily for the general audience. This is for people that come to Comic Con, which are the nerds of the nerds, right? Uh, we'll go to Comic Con. Your general people out there, like friends of ours and stuff, that they're not, they don't know what goes on in these places. Or or pay attention to that news unless a trailer actually hits online, they're not really talking about it, you know. Yeah. So this is for the insiders, you know, that really want to see it. You know, so uh yeah, i if anything we get a title to an X-Men movie, you know. Nothing that's gonna spoil anything. We know it's coming no matter what happens next. He's been talking about it forever, and it's pretty much honestly. I mean, it's pretty much been said, you know, they're yeah, we're doing it, you know what I mean? Like and in so I think uh yeah, that's that's kind of how I think it's gonna go for sure.

SPEAKER_09 42:36

The only movies that we know the Marvel is actively in development with are movies like the X-Men movie, because they already confirmed writers and a director's now. Um, the Blade movie. They haven't really confirmed a directors or the writers of that, but they did say it's in development production, whatever.

SPEAKER_01 42:52

They know the title of it. Blade.

SPEAKER_09 43:01

Yeah, for Black Panther 3 with Denzel Washington talk um in final stages of being cast. That was a big thing at the time. Yeah, I'm I'm not a fan.

SPEAKER_03 43:14

I love Denzel. I don't know what they're doing, but uh that's this. You can't just throw stars at me and make these better. That last one wasn't that good, guys. I'm sorry. No, no shade on Chadwick Bozeman. I'd feel terrible, but it just wasn't.

SPEAKER_09 43:27

Yeah, alone we can't.

SPEAKER_03 43:29

It's not good just because we're mourning somebody. I'm sorry, you can't use that against us.

SPEAKER_09 43:33

Yep. No, oh yeah, we got some we got some hot takes on that, on that one.

SPEAKER_03 43:37

You can't just throw Denzel in it and say it's gonna be awesome. So sorry. Good story then.

SPEAKER_09 43:43

This is supposed to be, from my understanding, his retirement movie.

SPEAKER_03 43:46

Well, gosh, if Denzel's coming in as in that, then we know he's not Magneto. That's at least a refresh, thank goodness. Because that'd be another mistake. Not because he's black, because I just don't want Denzel playing Magneto. So it's not got nothing to do with that.

SPEAKER_09 44:02

It's as simple as that.

SPEAKER_03 44:03

Yeah, I I want a new, I want people that are gonna be around for a while doing it. Denzel's not gonna do that forever.

SPEAKER_09 44:08

Yeah. All right. So to wrap this up, any final thoughts?

SPEAKER_03 44:11

No, I'm I'm all set. I mean, I look for I look forward to see what they do, you know, and yeah, I hope that we get some Doom stuff. I mean, it'd be cool. It's uh I don't know. I I I it does show though, I think, you know, I expect anything because they're desperate right now. They are in fix it mode. And this is their any little bit they can put out, they're gonna start doing. I think they're gonna be strategic about it and fun about it and make it look like they know what they're doing. And maybe by now they do have their footing on it for sure. But this is definitely in response to God, we hope it's good, which is the unfortunate state we're in, because you know, even even going this is the first time where I kept I keep in my mind saying to myself, if doomsday is good, we're back on track. But I still am like, yeah, but if doomsday good, if doomsday is good, it still might not be good enough yet. You know, so I guess it all depends on where we're at, you know. Every good thing they do, every good movie they have, every good will they can get from us is you know, and don't get don't get me wrong, it's the most successful franchise out there. So when I say doing bad, it's just in taste because they're making all the money, folks. Might not be as much as like before, I guess, but they're making all the money. So yeah. Especially this movie. This movie's this movie could be dog crap, it's still gonna make a ton of money. So either way, but yeah, no, I'm excited. Yeah, some maybe someday we'll be at one of these. That's well, one of my hopes. Doomsday's good.

SPEAKER_09 45:32

We're going to the next one because it's gonna be the push to that's and that's why I'm saying I think that the um the Comic-Con 2027 uh Hall H will be the one that's gonna reveal the next phase or two of the MCU. I yeah, because they they have no choice at that point if they're gonna if they're gonna do it. That would be the one to do it.

SPEAKER_03 45:53

And that'll be our last chance to see our OGX men together because we know they're coming back in the next in Secret Wars, even if for a brief moment. Secret Wars is gonna have everybody in it.

SPEAKER_09 46:04

They're gonna have everybody.

SPEAKER_03 46:05

They're gonna have everybody plus, is what's gonna happen in Secret Wars.

SPEAKER_09 46:08

They're gonna have the old granny from the Deadpool movies. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 46:13

Toby McGuire's roommate from the first movie, he's gonna be in it. Oh, okay. They're all gonna be everybody. His his the girl across the room. That's right. Yeah, the girl across the room, yeah.

SPEAKER_09 46:23

Yeah, and this in the second Toby Maguire movie, the one that baked them the cookies, she's gonna be in it.

SPEAKER_03 46:27

It should just show up. This is gonna be there.

SPEAKER_09 46:29

Like, hi.

SPEAKER_03 46:29

You know, should be feeding doom grapes or something. Who knows? Everybody's gonna be in it. Foggy's gonna be in it. Yeah, Figgy's gonna be in it.

SPEAKER_09 46:38

Everybody's gonna be in.

SPEAKER_03 46:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_09 46:40

All right, guys. Well, uh the question is for you. We're um uh let's see, Marvel Studios is coming back to Hall H of the San Diego Comic-Con. Big deal, big things happened at that one. Uh, so what do you guys think is gonna happen? What are your thoughts on them returning? Well, you why do you think they're returning in this year instead of next year? And we know when they're gonna return next year too. But what are your predictions for Hall H of 2026?

SPEAKER_05 47:07

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_09 47:08

All right, I think that concludes our multiverse minute. And so we are gonna segue over to the rumor mill roundup, right? Run down, yeah. Run down.

SPEAKER_03 47:20

We will get these. We got so many guys, we're gonna eventually be right on it.

SPEAKER_09 47:23

Yeah, yeah. We have great titles, but then as we're live with you, we're like, oh, wait a minute. I I'm tongue twisters here.

SPEAKER_03 47:29

Oh, if you only knew, Sam, when I filmed my Dark Dimensions this last week, the first one, seven times, folks. I had to restart the Dark Dimensions part because I'm like, I just said it wrong every time.

SPEAKER_09 47:41

By the way, I've seen the first cut of it. We saw a preview of it last night, and I already started working on the editing part of it today. I tell you what, it is really good. So, guys, pay attention because that will be dropping within the next week. Awesome. So, all right, on to the rumor mill rundown.

SPEAKER_03 48:06

All right, guys, we're gonna start our new segment, the rumor mill rundown. Basically, what we do is got some rumors that we're gonna have. And like I said before, uh, none of these have any kind of fact behind them. These are just people that have maybe from inside sources have told somebody who's told somebody who's played a game of telephone that read it on a piece of paper on the ground that maybe this is what's happening. So take it all with a grain of salt. It's all speculation. This could get real salty and fun, who knows? Because when Sammy and I speculate, it can get wild. Sometimes we'll try to temper it, but hey, sometimes if we don't, it's even better. So I'm just gonna go ahead and throw out this first one here for fun of it, okay? And this one is definitely gonna be a good time. But it's uh supposedly there's a Sadie Sink leak. Apparently, a photo is circulating the internet, giving any kind of credibility to Gene Gray uh probably or what's uh yeah, of her playing of Sadie playing Gene Gray in the uh Spider-Man movie Brand New Day. Uh it's an image. Is it fake? Is it real? The image is kind of odd, you know. There is an actual image, I do believe, of her standing next, yeah, standing next to uh Frank Castle, which is strange too, I guess. I mean, I don't know. So, you know, what do you think of the rumors involving this mysterious character? And I mean, the image pretty much is just there's nothing real special about her outfit either that kind of gives anything away. So but for some reason it's putting it ablaze that she's Gene Gray. So I've seen this. I see nothing that says Jean Gray. Like no X thing, no nothing, no the suit doesn't I don't know, it's not even a suit, just dress just standing there, you know, and and then in the image is a little fishy. There's a there's a spot in the image with Frank's hand that I'm thinking this is probably 70%, probably could be AI, and people are just it just looks good enough where people are running with it right now. But it is, it's it's uh it's it's a blaze. What do you think, Sam? What's your thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_09 50:08

I mean, well, by now, folks, if you've watched our or listened to our podcast or watched it, which by the way, if you are listening to it, we do have a video version on YouTube. If you're watching us on YouTube and you want to just be able to walk listen to us, we do have an audio version on Spotify and Apple and all that, so I have to plug in that real quick. But I will say if you've listened to us talk about this before, we are very passionate about X-Men, and we're also very passionate about not putting Gene Gray in the Spider-Man movie. And we don't mean that with any disrespect to any of the creative decisions that they've done. If that is what they've done, we just hope and we pray when we go into the movies and see this that it's done tastefully, it's done right, it's still a Spider-Man movie. We just don't think this is the right call to do. Um, this image, it's a supposed leak online, which means it really could be anything. Marvel and Sony have not come out and confirmed this, and actually, from my understanding, there is one of those Gemini AI things that um detectors that said that this is not a real image, but then you hear people online saying, Oh, this is a real image, and then funny enough, um, a lot of people who already were convinced this is Gene Gray are like, Yep, this is our proof. But then I've seen an uprising online of people saying, Oh no, this is another character that was introduced in the Netflix shows. I believe it was the Iron Fist season two, uh character named Typhoid Mary, and I guess that she looks similar to that too. So could that be a recast? And that's the character which would kind of fit a little bit more with Spider-Man lore a little bit. Uh and we do know the Spider-Man movie does have multiple different villains in it. So we don't know. It's very interesting that Marvel's keeping her casting a very uh tight secret where we don't really have anything to go on. So when things like this um are released online or leaked online, it's like wildfire in a forest in California. It's just a blazing all over the place, and everyone's talking about it, everyone's speculating about it. Uh I don't know what to think if this is real or not. Um I just know how I feel about um I by the way, the picture it does look cool. I will tell you whoever CD Sink is playing, like they if this is an act accurate picture, the hair, perfect. The the outfit, really cool. The outfit does have Gene Gray reminiscence to me when it comes to the green and the yellow, which is part of her classic one of her classic costumes. Not the by the way. That's one of the things that people need to remember is that Jean Gray has different iterations of her costumes, so that looks cool there. But you look at some other images of her and that's not her. So I am not opposed at the moment of Sadie Sink playing Gene Gray, although I'd because mainly because I don't have an actress in the top of my head that I think should fit the part or should play it. But I am opposed to Gene Gray being introduced in the Spider-Man movie. Yes. So that's that's that's my big take. I and she I like Sadie Sink, great in Stranger Things. I loved her in Stranger Things, she was good, and we do know that they're trying to do a younger cast. I believe it was um part of the rumor, um, rumor mill rundown that will say in regards to this is there is a there's a guy named Perez Hilton that said that yes, Marvel is looking for younger actors who could grow into the role, and they're looking for the five main core um X-Men to start the comics in the beginning, plus an additional three for diversity reasons. Let's be honest, folks. That's what it is, because the five original ones they're all men except Gene Gray. So I don't see with the plethora of mutants that they have there, they're just gonna stop there. So when you mention three additional people, expect people like Storm and stuff like that to be part of it. Um I'm not opposed to Sadie Sink growing into this role. She's a great actress. Um she definitely can have a look like Jean Grey. I'm sure with the right wardrobe and makeup and all that, they could do it. I just my biggest, my biggest thing that is uh hard pill to swallow, which I'm not swallowing anything, so I see the movie, um, is she's playing Jean Grey in the Spider-Man movie. That's that's my two sense on that.

SPEAKER_03 54:40

Yeah, in this section, guys, uh I'm gonna make this declaration right now. This is where I'm gonna be I'm gonna be the most guilty myself at taking ownership and and um any kind of idea of what a story should be, because it's not ours to tell, right? However, Marvel's doing this or whoever's writing this, it's their movies. We're along for the ride. I will use that excuse for something like Iron Man 3. I can't take ownership for things that happen. We just have to either be in for it or not. You can you can have your taste and say whether you like it or not, but just for pure speculation, folks, I am gonna just tell you exactly how I feel about it. And it was it to me is a giant mistake if she is Gene Gray. And I do not like that this just puts fire to that. She's somebody because you go on IMDB and it doesn't tell you what her character is, they're very quiet about it. She is signed on for several things, it's not just this movie, so it's not like she's just a one and done villain if she is, or just for this movie, or you know, whatever. So she's somebody big. And but it it what it does for me is put up big red flags because that's I get we're getting all these villains in the Spider-Man movie. Um, I still think a lot of those villains are gonna be very reminiscent of Fantastic Four, where we're gonna get like a beginning montage or some sort of maybe a couple fight scenes here and there of this is what he's been up to for this these four years, and these are the people he's been fighting. Because I don't think many of these guys that we see in a trailer could hold a whole movie, you know. Um, or getting a weird version of the sinister six ends up being a sinister 15, who knows? It's either way, it's I don't know, maybe whatever they're doing, you know. Um, but I don't think these all these villains are taken front stage. I think the only certain ones are. I'm and that's not and I'm not saying that they are making her a villain if it is Gene Gray. It's still when I try in my mind to think what's the best way to bring her in if you're gonna put it in a Spider-Man movie, then. And I can't think of anything I would like that makes sense, you know, because if we're I I'm assuming this this is all speculation, right, guys? I'm assuming we're getting X-Men through incursions. Like we're gonna get them in our universe with whatever happens at the end of secret wars, right? I'm assuming that. Because as of right now, there's no mutants in the MCU. They won't even say mutant, let alone there's no mutants. Of course I know I know there's contractual things there, I get that.

SPEAKER_09 57:19

But they're not saying mutant.

SPEAKER_03 57:20

And I and I'm being sarcastic because I do know it's a contractual thing mostly, and that's why they stayed away from it, because they don't they don't want to cross too many lines when they don't have the at the time ownership of it. But now that they do, it's like so we know Beast is coming from somewhere else, because we've met him already from somewhere else. I'm cool with that, you know. But if Gene Gray's already here, my concern, guys, is I hold very dearly what the relationship of the X-Men are to each other. And if you make that too fractured when it comes down to, well, we're not even from the same place, let alone have those kind of relations going on, then you're not gonna make you there's no way in my mind you can make an X-Men movie when you say we're gonna make it as true to the old fans as we can, even the new versions, we're gonna make those fans, those old fans are still gonna love it. I just don't see it, guys. I just don't see it. That and it worries me for the Spider-Man movie. Actually, first and foremost, before we even get to X-Men and what you what you could do to Gene Gray, what else you gotta put in this freaking Spider-Man movie, guys? Like, I'm not and I'm not saying you can't put a lot in. We've seen what you do. I mean, we've seen No Way Home. You can do a lot of stuff, you can do a lot of stuff, but Gene Gray, Punisher, at least three or four different villains we've seen, probably the hand, which they haven't still haven't even told us for sure that's the hand, but it is, right, guys. Look at it. I mean, what else is it? And now we got we're we're not sure about the Hulk, you know. Is it just gonna be just gonna be uh Bruce Banner or is he gonna hulk out? Because if he's gonna hulk out, the movie's over, man. I don't know what the hell we're gonna watch.

SPEAKER_09 59:00

And don't take the toys as the reason that you're not gonna be.

SPEAKER_03 59:03

Oh, yeah, don't, because you never know with those toys.

SPEAKER_09 59:05

Merchandising is meant to lure people in to buy their products, right? And we have seen plenty of movies that have merchandise that come out, happy meal toys, yeah, whatnot, that they never happened in the movie. They're just there because the general audience thinks Hulk in Spider-Man, there you go. Which in reality, we only know that Bruce Banner isn't it.

SPEAKER_03 59:25

Yeah, and because guys face it, like a Hulk Lego guy will sell more than a Bruce Banner Lego guy. Because a Bruce Banner Lego guy is just a Lego guy. You know what I mean? Like he's not he's not a he's not a big green Lego. Like, I don't, yeah, I try not to pay attention to those because you never know what you're gonna get. This I mean, well, I don't have it off the top of my head specifically because I've not paid attention to it, but if we had to, we could look it up. I'm sure there's many examples of toys that have come. I mean, look at Jurassic Park. When Jurassic Park came out, they released tons of different kinds of dinosaurs with a Jurassic Park logo on it, and none of them, almost over half of them weren't in the movie. But it's just because it's a dinosaur movie. I got a dinosaur, I have a Stegosaurus from Jurassic Park 1 at home as a toy when I was a kid. It was given by in Christmas, had to be Christmas time, and I still have it sit on my shelf. And there's no Stegosaurus in Jurassic Park 1. But it's just, hey, we're gonna sell dinosaurs, it don't matter, you know. So it's that's how they're looking at it, guys. But I hope to God it's not. I mean, we don't need Hulkiness, but we're not that's that was already a conversation. So, but yeah, Sadie Sink, I mean, I have no problem with who she is. I think she's a great actress so far. I think she'd be great for Gene Gray. The problem isn't the cast of it, the problem is where this is showing up and who they are. And and I think they like this. They're glad we're talking like this about it.

SPEAKER_09 1:00:45

It's you know this, it's free publicity for the movie. And if people that are Jean Grey proponents and want to see her in it, they're gonna go see it thinking they're gonna see her. People like us that don't want to see her in it, we want to go in it to see, oh, it's really it's not Gene Gray. Fuja, gotcha.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:01

You know, there's a lot of there's a lot of people who there's a lot of big people that have a lot of people inside saying it is.

SPEAKER_09 1:01:07

And I'm I'm gonna tell you, if she is in this movie and it's tastefully done, I won't have too much of a gripe. I don't like the fact that she's in it, but if they do justice to her as a character and to the movie at large, it it does make me question because uh like you said before, the ownership piece of this, this is X-Men. This isn't just a throwaway character. This is Gene Gray, she's one of the core members, she's the freaking Phoenix, for goodness sake.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:33

Yeah, and I'm gonna tell you right now, if you if anyone in Marvel is thinking that they can change who the core characters are, the X-Men, you can you cannot do that. I'm sorry. You you can for a new generation, but you're gonna lose this generation. Yes, and if that's what you're prepared to do, then go for it. You can teach the new group of kids coming up to watch these that this character wasn't that big, but Gene Gray to us is huge. Yeah, yeah, and that's gonna and that's just that's just the facts. She's bigger than Wolverine. Yes, and we love what she did with him, and we don't complain about it. In fact, we love seeing him every time you got him. But if you made us choose, we want her and Scott right first.

SPEAKER_06 1:02:14

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:14

And that's something that we've kind of lacked a little. No offense to what Brian Singer and them guys did because they did great. It just seemed that every time he handed the baton for the greatness to become exactly what it's supposed to be, they dropped it every time. He should have just stayed. I don't know why, two times he walked away to do other projects. Yeah, I want to see Brian Singer's Phoenix movie, but we never got it. And the people that did take the baton and do it just didn't have what they saw in those characters correct. And that's fine, whatever. You know, that we'll get to those movies when we get to them, right? But the point is, is don't don't misunderstand hardcore X-Men people of a certain age when if you start thinking, yeah, but Gene can be the side character, and we're gonna more focus on this one. Sorry. We want everyone to have their due. I want the storm that we got in the cartoons, the older woman who's the you know, that like the mother figure that can take care of everybody. And we never got that either, you know. I think Halle Berry could play that if you gave her the role to do it, she could play it. I I don't think that I think all the players are there to do so, or or even a new actress for the new iteration we're gonna do. But make no mistake, when you think X-Men, that core, the heart of it, the soul of it, the drama of it, the melodrama of it. The reason why some of that works so well is because Gene is a very important character. Don't forget she is the second most powerful next to Xavier when it comes down to the mind. If not, probably the most powerful, and he's just hoping she stays good because that's kind of how it goes. And when she's the Phoenix guys, none of these bad guys got anything on anybody. None of them. You think Doom's gonna be bad, wait till you see the Phoenix. She just he's just gone because she thinks about it.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:59

Yeah, yes.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:00

So I don't have to tell you, you know what I mean? Like, it I mean, you yeah, yeah, I'll I'll put it out there right now. Phoenix, Scarlet Witch, it'll be a fight, but Phoenix is gonna win. So you just got it's the Phoenix can only be defeated by one person, and that's Gene Gray. And that's the point of it, and that's what we want. And that's sorry, that's ownership. I know we don't have to get it, but you got you can't, don't change him. I mean, if you do, I'm gonna be hey, well, your X-Men's just gonna be better be a darn good movie because it's not gonna get me in just for those, you know.

SPEAKER_09 1:04:30

We are so passionate about this guy. So passionate. We did a fan fiction film called X-Men Dark Phoenix after a pop-ups came out.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:38

We have one almost wholly written. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:42

Gosh, almost 300 pages worth of a screen. It was it's crazy.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:47

What our Dark Phoenix would be. Oh maybe we'll do a special presentation and have fun and talk to y'all about it sometime. But we have a great idea for a Dark Phoenix movie that would have just been. I mean, we're talking about it and bring ourselves to tears.

unknown 1:05:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:01

You know you're doing something right when it's at least for yourself, right? And it is the ownership of it. But yeah, at least we still think fan people of X-Men would like it. Of course, of course, you know.

SPEAKER_09 1:05:10

You have your different tastes out there, but we made sure even when we were writing some of these scenes, to be like, oh, let's redo this, because we think this will be more comic accurate or this would be better for the character. And oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:21

Of course, we love apocalypse, and most everybody doesn't, so put it that way. Yeah, we'll get there too, guys. Well, which is if you're an X-Men fan, you should be ashamed of yourself, John Campia. All right. We love you, John. Yeah, we love you. I just want to have a cup of coffee with you and really talk about Apocalypse. I really want to talk to you about it.

SPEAKER_09 1:05:41

Everyone's entitled to their opinions. But I gotta tell you. Anyone who says Apocalypse is uh is uh a downgrade to the X Men or crap, you do not know what you watched then.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:53

We did not get the big we saw a different movie.

SPEAKER_09 1:05:55

Oh, yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:56

We watched a different movie.

SPEAKER_09 1:05:58

Ladies and gentlemen, if you have seen this. Image online of what Sadie Sinks supposedly looks like in the Spider Man brand new day. What are your thoughts? Is she Gene Gray? Is she Typholding Mary? Is she somebody else?

SPEAKER_00 1:06:10

Do you care?

SPEAKER_09 1:06:11

Do you think this is an accurate picture? Do you think it's AI? What are your thoughts? Let us know in the comments below. We do read your comments, and we for this, we are very passionate about. We want to see your response.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:21

That's right.

SPEAKER_09 1:06:22

All right, I'll read to you guys the next one. So uh Oscar Isaac, speaking of apocalypse himself, um, he added a little fuel to the fire when he was on, I believe, the Happy Sat Confused Podcast. Is that right?

SPEAKER_00 1:06:38

That's correct.

SPEAKER_09 1:06:38

Yep. Uh, when talking about Ghost Rider. I wrote uh here specifically, Oscar Isaac added fuel to Ghost Rider Fire when vocally supporting Ryan Gosling to play Ghost Rider while expressing a desire to return as Moon Knight, which is the first time he has since that show ended, by the way, guys. Could the Midnight Suns film actually be in development? Now that's something the Midnight Suns, I don't know if you're too familiar with it, like it's okay if you're not. Somewhat. Is definitely that supernatural element of uh the MCU that they have been trying to tap into a little bit here or there, like with Werewolf by Night, which actually was a pretty good um Marvel spotlight uh special. I I was shocked how good I liked it, how much I liked it, I should say. Um and yes, Moon Knight is one of those characters that's in the Midnight Suns. Ghost Rider is Doctor Strange is uh Wanda Maximoff a little bit is in it. You know, there's there's many different characters that um are of the supernatural side that become like the Midnight Suns. It's like the it's like a little B, how do I say this properly so no one gets offended? It's like a B list hero team of these guys that just came together and for the greater good of whatever the problem is, and then they go back and they do their separate things, which actually so they're not like a core core team all the time type thing. Um, which is actually kind of cool, in my opinion, to see something like that loosely done. Um so uh I I don't know. I don't uh Ryan Gosling has said in the past he's had complicated talks with Marvel about playing the role. We've already speculated if this is something he would do or wouldn't do. Um, you actually reacted to this. So if you haven't seen that short or that real online guys, I suggest you go check it out because Ike did a great job at reacting to this news. It's pretty cool. But Oscar Isaac, another big name, um throwing his support behind Ryan Gosling, playing this, and actually says he looks forward to hugging him from behind on a on a motorcycle of some kind, you know? So what are your thoughts, Ike?

SPEAKER_03 1:08:40

So I got many thoughts on this. Um right off the bat, there is no movie in development, guys. Don't get your I mean, I'm gonna I'll put money on it right now. They don't have a clue um what to do with these characters. Uh it'd be great, but let me get I'll get to the movie in a second. Um of course I I don't know how well Oscar Isaac and um uh Ryan Gosling know each other or if they do at all, but they're both phenomenal actors. I've been a fan of Oscar for a long time. Uh you watch a movie back in there's a movie he did a while ago called Ten Years, which is about a uh high school reunion, which is real good, and he did a uh the most violent year, which uh I didn't really get you know a lot of reception, but uh it's one of my favorite. I watch it once a year for some reason, and he's just him and Jessica Chast stain in there fantastic. I like anything he's in. You know, he's in the new season of beef, actually. I can't wait to watch that. I haven't I've yet to sit down and watch it when I do. I want to be able to binge it. Hey, tomorrow's a stormy day here where we live in New York, so that might be what I do tomorrow, guys. Do laundry and watch beef. Um sounds like a weird movie, anyway. Uh I but you know what? If we are gonna do a Midnight Suns movie, I think this could be like the Guardians of the Galaxy of the Supernatural from Marvel. You could, if it were me, it'd be Moon Knight, Ghost Rider, and Blade on a big buddy trip, and then you add in the person that we would be with for the whole movie through like that we would see through their eyes, the punisher. Because why not?

SPEAKER_09 1:10:18

Or Black Knight that's introduced in Eternals, he's part of the Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:20

Well, I'll I just I'm just thinking of an everyday guy though, that can just he's mortal, so he's gonna be in the midst of these guys doing all this crazy stuff, but still be the punisher, you know. So I think that'd be cool. And then add in these other, you know, the other ones like anybody from uh what's the one you mentioned the show a second ago? Um from Eternals, yeah. People from Eternals, anything that deals with the supernatural.

SPEAKER_09 1:10:42

Oh uh uh werewolf by night.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:44

Thank you. Yeah, werewolf by night, yeah. Anyone from that if you want to have fun to bring them in, then you could do this awesome cross-country road trip, romp of just supernatural buddy cop feeling. Oscar Isaac would be great in this spot, especially with his guy being the way he is. Because I'll tell you, as much as I feel like I didn't care for the show that much, it's got nothing to do with his performance. Oh no, yeah, he's that's a I when we get to when we talk about that show, you'll know what I'm I'll get more in depth in it. But what a get and a great acting job he did in that for a show that didn't take him anywhere. And I really felt bad for him because he's phenomenal in it. But he could almost be, you could you could almost reinvent that character with how that was received, and he could have that almost comedic twist to it with having that double side to him with these guys, you know, and this how they talk to each other. And this, by the way, is how you bring and this by the way is how you bring Blade into it. I don't think you bring him in on a solo movie. I think you bring him in on a bigger picture of bigger things that are going on, and then then ease if you want to do a solo project after that because it's well received, then ease into it, and you know you can do it because you did it with Black Panther. You brought him in on someone else's movie, and then he got one of the best movies MCU ever made. I don't think it's one of the best movies they made, but it's one that made the most money, right? It made a lot of money, it's one of the most successful, I should say, because I don't personally think it's one of the best, but it is good. It is good. Same with Spider-Man. That's how you brought Spider-Man in was through someone else's movie. The same movie, the same exact movie, in fact, yeah. So do the same thing here. If you're having trouble with your ghostwriter and you're having trouble where to put uh some of these guys that look, we want to keep Oscar Isaacs because it's Oscar Isaacs and he's hot. Well, in many ways, but he's hot, you know, he's as an actor, and and also you get a ghostwriter who's a popular character, someone is gonna play him for a while, which is why it's why it's not gonna be Ryan. I think Ryan would be awesome in that role. Yeah, but he's not gonna do it for that long. I don't think so. Yeah, maybe I'm wrong. I know he has been on record saying it's his favorite of the comic characters. Hey, when if you're he could he could be a huge Aggman and just be like, I'm into this, let's do it.

SPEAKER_09 1:13:09

Well, and to be honest, who knows the character Ghost Rider, as we've discussed solo projects of this before, and this is not to Nicholas Cage's um uh not to say bad about him because he did a great job as a role, but I don't see Ghost Rider having a trilogy. I don't see Ghost Rider doing anything. No, I see him in movies like this as a team up. I can see Ryan Gosling portraying Ghost Rider knowing he's gonna do a trilogy of Midnight Suns films and adventures and tag-alongs and the next Secret Wars type movie and all that stuff showing up.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:42

That's right.

SPEAKER_09 1:13:43

Things like that. He would do something like that.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:45

So when you do the next Avengers movies after you introduce these guys, put a supernatural element to it where these guys are needed, and then you got this ragtag group of dudes that fight. Yeah, it'd be so sick. Like, I mean, I'm just telling you, that'd be my goal. I would, I would ask, I would, I mean, they'd be stupid not to ask Ryan if he does say yes and he agrees to 30 movies or whatever, or whatever, how much he agrees to, that'd be great. But I gotta tell you, if Ryan's coming and I think he'd want to either play, I can see Ryan playing something either really big that's there for a long time, which isn't Ghost Rider, or playing a role like we get with like the Tommy Lee Joneses, and where he shows up in a movie and plays a character, but he's not coming back, probably for you know what I mean. And if he does, it might be for a couple, right? We got every Marvel movie has that one or two characters that you know, the Tommy Lee Jones or the Skarsgard and the Avengers, you know, where it's a big actor that gives a lot of fame to it. Gosh, we had uh uh what's his name? And sorry guys, I'm blanking on names tonight. But yeah, several times we see this all.

SPEAKER_09 1:14:49

Well, we had Chris Evans show up in Deadpool and Wolverine for a as a different character, right? Yeah, a different character, but you know, he's a big name just just to show up as a cameo type thing.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:59

But Robert Redford is who I'm thinking of. Huge actor, huge, and he's not joining the MCU to do a bunch, but he was in two of them. You know, he was in that and he showed up in Endgame. So it's like it's in I could see Ryan doing something like that. He could play a cool character that comes maybe another Colson kind of role, right? Well that'd be cool, you know.

SPEAKER_09 1:15:19

For Ghost Rider, I can see him not only portraying Ghost Rider, oh yeah, but also doing this as not a Ghost Rider solo project where he is part of an ensemble. I could see it too that's it.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:31

I could I could too, yeah. I really could too.

SPEAKER_09 1:15:34

We can't like Marvel. You should you have some of these these chess pieces already on the board, you just gotta now line them up right.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_09 1:15:40

You have already introduced Sasha Baron Conan as Mephisto, which is one of the Marvel's biggest bads of all the supernatural, plus everything else. And now you have potentially Mahersha Ali who said that he wants to play Blade, just gotta get him a good script and get him something. Um, so you have him on board to play him at least. Someone like Oscar Isaac, that you already had film stuff that he wants to now come back and do stuff with people like Ryan Gosling, who could play Ghost Rider. You have all these pieces there. You could have your movie already set up, but give us a one crazy cool supernatural film of Midnight Suns and see what happens from there. It might be popular enough for Ryan Gossin's, like, hey, you know what? I'll sign up for two more sequels because I got some good money, Marvel money. That's really good money, guys. And it wasn't that taxing for him to do.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:31

Well, it's it's and it's a no-brainer for money wise. You put Blade in there, you know, and you put Ghost Rider, and you put Oscar Isaac in there with his character, and then you go ahead and throw in that little, hey, why not? Let's throw Punisher in there. Yeah. Throw in a couple of those bigger ones that are like that. Everyone's gonna go watch this movie. Yeah, it's it's gonna be a big deal enough to go see. Yeah, you know, it's it's uh you're the movie. This is a great, it's a kind that will sell itself, and then you kind of go with whatever you can get from that, you know. Yeah, I I'm not sure. You know, I wish I could ask Ryan myself because he's a hard actor to read. I see him do a lot of interviews. I personally, if I had to guess, I think he really would like to get an Oscar. And I don't think it's something that he has to have. I don't think it he needs it to validate himself, but I do think he would want one, and I think he wants one, and that's why he's been choosing the roles he's been doing. And I almost personally would like to see what he's going to do next to try to get that, because you tend to get some really good movies from some of these guys like that. So I don't know if I want him to play Ghost Rider, although I would not have a problem with it at all.

SPEAKER_09 1:17:39

So yeah, well, the question is for you guys then. Do you think Midnight Suns is actually brewing in the background of phase seven and onward in the MCU, or at least the immediate future, I should say? Do you think Brian Gossing will be a great role for Ghost Rider, a great uh actor for Ghost Rider? Do you think someone else will be better? What are your thoughts on Oscar Isaac on mentioning this, saying, hey, let's get it done? I think those are his exact words. Let's do it. So, what are your guys' thoughts? Let us know in the comments below. All right. Speaking of which, right before we move on, I did when I I turned on that podcast, because of course I wanted to hear this and everything, but I immediately clicked on the apocalypse tab because I want to know what he thought of apocalypse type thing. And part of me is like, don't get your hopes up, Sam, because like like my brother just said, we love X-Men Apocalypse. It's one of our opinion, my opinion personally, one of the better X-Men movies done.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:31

Might be the best one. If we really had to argue it, it might be the best one.

SPEAKER_09 1:18:36

Just saying, you may not like that opinion, might think, oh, this guy's crazy. What the heck is he talking about? Wait till our episode comes out on X-Men Apocalypse retrospective. I will do my best I can to convince you otherwise. But anyway.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:49

He convinced me because it wasn't my favorite, but we talked for a long time, and I'm like, man, I gotta tell you. Yeah, it might not be my favorite, but it might be the best one.

SPEAKER_09 1:18:56

And I tell you, Apocalypse, Oscar Isaac as Apocalypse. He sold me on Oscar Isaac as an actor before the movie even came out because I was like, Will he do a good job? Then I watched a movie and I'm like, oh my god, I have a poster of Oscar Isaac as Apocalypse downstairs in my um in my living room. It's oh it's so good. Anyways, so I wanted to hear what he thought about it. And his only complaint, his main complaint, I would say, was the putting on all that stuff, which we hear with all of them the same thing. They're trying to make him realistic, guys. And let's face it, you can't bring the 90s apocalypse into a theatrical movie. It's gonna be corny, it's gonna look stupid. And I this is coming from someone who liked the 90s X-Men. And you can't take him seriously. Oscar Isaac, he gave him some gravitas. He was oh, he was menacing when he wanted to be, and you he was that father figure. Oh, we'll get into that. But I just wanted to hear what he thought about it. And he said that he wouldn't that that was his only regret is how much they had to do on him. I'm sure if it was something that he signed up for multiple projects, just like Mystique, they would have figured out a way to still give you that comic accurate look, or that even that comic accurate, because look at Mystique, that wasn't comic accurate, but they'll give you that iconic look. Um, but making it easier on the actors.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:16

Well, look how they did Thanos, right? They could do him like that now.

SPEAKER_09 1:20:19

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:19

Just put the dots on, we got you. Now it's just a jumpsuit.

SPEAKER_09 1:20:22

Yeah, they're gonna be a good one.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:23

When before we painted you, and he doesn't look that bad, you know.

SPEAKER_09 1:20:26

Um you either come off as real cartoony or actually looks pretty good. So Thanos look great.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:32

So yeah.

SPEAKER_09 1:20:33

All right, why don't you read the last part of our um rumor mill rundown?

SPEAKER_03 1:20:37

Okay, here's the last rumor of the day, guys, and it's a Deadpool's future kind of rumor, okay? So Ryan Reynolds, good old Canadian guy, has officially confirmed he's writing for Deadpool, but hints that future solo projects may not be sustaining, right? Yeah. Will he never be single yet ready to be mingled? I like that.

SPEAKER_08 1:21:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:01

Uh yeah, I I kind of looked this up because I was I was wasn't sure how you know I wanted to make sure I understood what was going on. Um, I think Ryan, I think we need to trust Ryan on this. If Ryan's saying, look, I don't know what to do with this guy other than putting him with other things now, then let's just let him do that because he's kind of been the flagship of understanding this character from day one of from way back when everybody wished it was better, and then he you know he leaked the footage, and then you know, and all that stuff. He knew what he was doing and he knew what he was making.

SPEAKER_09 1:21:36

He watched our first episode of the Gadel Multiverse when we said this, and he's like That's right. We talked about this, yeah. That's right. The first thing that we said is I don't know if we could be able to he could be able to sustain uh uh trilogy again without being teamed up.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:49

And that's right.

SPEAKER_09 1:21:50

Thank you for watching, Ryan.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:51

Yeah, Ryan, you can send the bottle of aviation gin to us, please. Uh yeah, no, for sure. Yeah, which I have two of them at home. I bought each one, the Wolverine and the Deadpool one. So I did buy your gin, which is very good, sir. I mean, I'm not a gin guy, but real good. Anyways, uh yeah, no, I I think he's right. And in and I think he's smart to keep it this way. I've all and like we said when we did talk about this before, that yeah, I I would rather see him teamed up. You know, I want a rated R Deadpool Spider-Man movie. That's what I want.

SPEAKER_09 1:22:22

I yeah, I agree. I actually think if they could be able to figure out a way to work it between the studios and the contract and all that stuff and keep Peter, Peter, of course, but keep Deadpool Deadpool. That I think that would be really cool, dynamic to play off each other and see what what happens.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:37

You imagine a rated R Deadpool Captain America movie?

SPEAKER_09 1:22:41

Oh.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:42

Just seeing Cap roll his eyes a million times.

SPEAKER_08 1:22:45

I don't know if I don't know if that would I don't know if that would work. I mean, we try anything, but that'd be a strange movie, wouldn't it? That would be, yeah. But you see I'd watch it.

SPEAKER_09 1:22:55

Like Deadpool and Wolverine. I can see another trilogy of Deadpool and Spider-Man, Deadpool and Hulk, Deadpool and Thor, Deadpool, you know, you just Deadpool and Thor, that's the one. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just pick another character, especially one that's kind of the exact opposite of uh Deadpool, and you really can see Deadpool and the Punisher. You really can see something uh interesting, be like, how would that work? Well, go to the theaters and find out. That's yeah, that'd be really cool.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:21

I agree. Yep.

SPEAKER_09 1:23:22

So anyway, is there anything else you want to add to this? Or is that no?

SPEAKER_03 1:23:25

I think we've covered this a couple times, and I'm I can't wait to see what he does with it. We know he's not gonna be gone forever, he's too big of a character. We'll see him again. Um, and it just I think we're gonna see him way sooner than we all think. Um, but also uh yeah, I can't wait to see what he does have cooking. I mean, if he is writing something, though, he's got something in mind for a whatever a team up movie or a group movie, maybe a maybe a legit X-Force movie. To be honest, could be one of those.

SPEAKER_09 1:23:52

Um, and uh correct me if I'm wrong, but when when they do some of these ensemble films, they usually have the either the creators of their uh MCU versions be consultation or take part in stuff. I know for a fact that um the people that were writing Bree Larson's Captain Marvel movie were heavily involved with the Russo brothers and writing her parts for Endgame. They had a sp vision, they had a specific thing they want her to do, and she was already filming her other film at the same time, and they brought all of them on. They brought James Gung in for consultation when it came to the Guardians and introducing them and Infinity War and stuff like that. So I wouldn't be surprised if um Ryan Reynolds in his writing confirming he's writing Deadpool scenes and Deadpool stuff, he probably is in either Doomsday or Secret Wars, and by golly, he's the one who writes them, he's the one who's gonna write his book. And as long as the Russo brothers give it the thumbs up and Kevin Feige does, you're gonna get it.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:51

Well, that's some of the reason why you see a lot of lists of producers on a movie, is sometimes it's that person did just enough to earn that credit. Yeah. And so like James Gunn, we see James Gunn, a producer, is the is a producer of Civil War and Infinity War and Endgame, but it's not because he helped he was the one that helmed the movie, it's because he did have a just enough say where they're like, Well, we gotta give you this title because of how much you put into it. Yeah, you know, it'd be just like me saying, Hey Sammy, can you help me with the script? And he rewrites half of it, then he's gonna be written by me and him, not just me. So it's it's you know, it's not it's different than him just editing some of it compared to being a part of it. So yeah, if if he has a big substantial part in you know what's being done, then yeah, he would get certain credits, writer credit at the very least, maybe a producer credit at some point. You know, it'd be silly to see a Ryan Reynolds producer up there as for Endgame or for uh Doomsday. But hey, if he had a big part in whatever is being written, it's it is what it is. It's weird to see James Gunn on those other ones, you know, and but it makes you realize, oh, he had say not just probably in what the Guardians were doing. They probably asked him, What do you think about this too? And he said, Well his creative decision making you gotta think in Infinity War, all that stuff with him getting stormbreaker was probably all James Gunn idea of how to do that. They're probably what would this look like if you were putting this in his life?

SPEAKER_09 1:26:18

Well, because Taika Wat T was part of the part of that too when it came to all the Thor stuff, and honestly, you that's one thing that we we talked about in the last episode, guys, about um when we were talking about the MCU layoffs and stuff like that, and the consistency be amongst each film. Uh, we were talking at that point about the visual consistency. Now we're talking about the the writing consistency. And I think that's one of the things that Marvel's very smart with. Kevin Feige in particular is very smart with the orchestrator of this whole uh universe. Is that when you come on as a producer or a writer for one film or one character or something like that, you you have some sort of creative freedom to voice the opinions or voice something on how that character is to proceed to keep that character um from their solo film into an Avengers film, keeping him consistent. And so I think that that's what we see with these big ensembles for Doomsday. We're probably gonna see John Watts pop up because he did Fantastic Four and he had a say of what the Fantastic Four are supposed to act like because he's already in pr in like pre-production of some kind of writing the next movie for Fantastic Four. So, of course, there has to be some consistency of the characters, which is a great example of why Wanda did not work in Doctor Strange and Multiverse of Madness. We will get there when we get there. And I know that there have been some people online that say otherwise as say they were behind the creative decision making, but when you watch it clear as day, folks, you go from WandaVision to multiverse of madness, and you're like, where did all that character art go? But we'll get there when we get there. I I told you, Wanda's my girl. Cap's my man, Wanda's my girl. You can't mess with them. So, anyways, question is for you guys. What do you think about Deadpool? What do you think about his future in the MCU? Do you think he's great at just these uh cameo fests that we're gonna have, written by Ryan Reynolds, it sounds like? Or do you think he can do his own standalone films again? And if he does, should it be buddy films? Should it be a solo Deadpool Deadpool film? Let us know what you think in the comments below. Deadpool and She-Hulk, call no right now. Alright, well, that concludes our uh rumor mill rundown, uh, our first segment of that. Thank you guys for tuning in. If you're just watching this as a clip on YouTube, we have a full episode available on Spotify, on Apple, on uh Amazon Music, and on YouTube itself. So go and check it out.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:50

Yep, and next we're gonna be jumping into our branch point breakdown. We're gonna be doing season two, episode six of Daredevil Born Again. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_09 1:29:06

All right, everybody. Thank you for joining us on the Goodell Multiverse podcast. You are listening and watching our branch point breakdown of uh Daredevil Born Again, season two, episode six. All right, so uh my brother Ike, what are your thoughts on this episode, especially compared to last week's episode?

SPEAKER_03 1:29:27

Well, I gotta say, um I did say last time that if they didn't kill her by now, she's not gonna be dead. I was wrong. She's dead. Didn't need a whole other episode to get there, but they did kill Vanessa, so that's good. Uh I I think we need to have a moment of silence for Mrs.

SPEAKER_10 1:29:48

Mayor Fisk.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:50

Yeah, well that's it. Good enough.

SPEAKER_03 1:29:54

Yeah. Well, um our moment of silence was all last week's episode. So um, yeah, I mean, I'm glad because you know, we we need this to happen. And then the stuff that happened in this because of that is good. Uh, this was this is a better episode. I'm still struggling with the show right now. Um, I want to love it, guys. I really do. I'm just struggling with it. A lot of memory berries again. Um, but that's okay. I know it's a theme that they really want to plug home. I just hope that when they finish this arc, it it's pretty much the finish of that theme. And we I I'll be honest with you, I can't wait to see what's next once this is over, being how fun and interesting this is, but it is feeling a tad drawn out. Um, but I do see that there's you know things happening. So yeah, I'm glad I'm glad she's gone though. You know, what are your thoughts on? Are you surprised that they got rid of her?

SPEAKER_09 1:30:50

Or I am a little surprised. Um I I don't know if I should say I expected her to live, but uh to be honest, when I after I watched last week's episode, it kind of was like, oh, is she dead? Is she not dead? Um I did call it on last week's episode of our of our podcast, guys. Wilson killed her when he didn't let that nurse do her job. But just saying, it's yeah, it's uh honestly speaking, I will say I do like this episode more than the last one. Yes, and I think that Kingpin, he from my understanding, he didn't speak throughout the whole episode until the very end. Yeah, it wasn't no, yeah. And uh, we have a playing in the background, and that scene of him hugging the doctor and doing what he did to the doctor. Oh, that is terrifying. That and you hear everything when you watch it, guys, and it's oh my gosh, it's it's brutal, it's just brutal, and it it reminds me of why I liked the show in the beginning, not born again specifically, but net the Netflix Daredevil show in the beginning, because that is what Wilson Fisk is, and oh my, that when that happened in the very beginning of the episode, I thought, okay, we're gonna get somewhat of a good episode here, we're gonna get a kingpin that's a little bit unhinged because of what's happened here. We still have yet to see the full um ramifications of Vanessa's death, but uh it's a strong start.

SPEAKER_03 1:32:23

Yeah, I'm I've I I'm the opposite of you. I've been annoyed with him up until the end of the episode. I'm kind of like, oh my goodness, like let's just get to this man. And and I I don't understand other than he's bad, right? Is the only reason he killed that doctor. There's no reason. It's a perfectly good doctor. You know, he didn't he didn't do anything wrong. Yeah, he just killed him.

SPEAKER_09 1:32:46

He does not have those reasoning functions really in him.

SPEAKER_03 1:32:50

Yeah, and I I think they've failed at proving that to me. Um, but but maybe it's me being too critical. I don't know. When they give me glimpses of humanity in him, these moments make me go, is this just because we can do this, or is he really this bad? And I believe he's really this bad. I do. I don't think they're doing it just because, but it it does sometimes feel like just because. And that that feels like it gets old. Now, when we get to the end, and he finally does talk and we get this awesome fight with them too. That's that's all it's awesome. Like it's some good stuff, right? Yeah, um, but this is this is actually a bigger question I have about him specifically. So I have my issues with Kingpin for some reason, guys. I just do. But do you think that he has powers? Is this not? I know originally in the old comics, it's just a guy who is what 79 or 88 percent muscle and only a little bit of fat, and so and he's a big dude, so like he's like 370 pounds of muscle, that's why he's so big, and then he's so strong. But I don't, I just gotta tell you, when Big Willy No Wife over here grabs this doctor and kills him, and then later on punches through a brick wall or brick pillar, I'm thinking this feels like they've just an unsaid he's got something as well going on, you know, that maybe they'll never talk about, but it just kind of makes me go, I don't care how strong y'all are, it don't matter when you put your bare fist through a brick pillar, you're breaking your hand. Like those big guys don't do that stuff.

SPEAKER_09 1:34:31

I think that's the that's the sci-fi nature of it. Go with it. I think because I've never from any I haven't read too many of the Kingpin comics or anything that he's in it. You know, I don't think there's a solo Kingpin comic, but anyways, anything he's been in. But from my understanding of Kingpin, it was just always understood that he is just an unrealistic, strong that is not explained through some accident as a kid, like at least with Matt Murdoch having an accident, and you can explain away some of the heightened senses he has as something a little more supernatural than anything. Um but I think I think that's just what they're doing. I think they're just wanting you to watch this. He's a tough stone bitch. Realizing, yeah, yeah, that's exactly what he is.

SPEAKER_03 1:35:17

I I and I and I'm cool with that. I can follow. I don't have any gripes. I'm just wondering because part of me is kind of, man, that's even for a real tough strump guy.

SPEAKER_09 1:35:25

That's that's a lot. I think part of you is trying to say in your brain, there has to be some sort of connection between his unnaturally looking and appearing strength and uh why he does what he does, type thing. Yeah, it you're right. It's how I feel. Yeah. If you connect those dots with, oh, there's a supernatural element or there's a power element or something like that. I think this is just how he is. And this is what this is what happens when you get someone who has a little bit of a mental thing going on. You get very clear from the beginning of the Deadpool show that uh whether uh it was him killing his father or what happened in his childhood, something messed him up and he needs a psychiatrist then.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:06

He yeah, he needs some milk, he needs to sit down.

SPEAKER_08 1:36:11

He's got there's yeah, he's got anything. I got you. He's a bad guy.

SPEAKER_03 1:36:14

You know, I'm good with it. And like I said, this is the better I've seen of it. I just didn't care for the wimpy whiny kind of version of him in this. The I I'm getting tired of the uh symbolic color metaphors going on. I don't think it's as artsy and coming off as well to me, as tasteful as they think it is in the show, because the show works real well already with a lot of different stuff. But this whole stark black with the whites, and then the how as the suit of him gets the black comes off, and the red shows is his soul being reborn, you know, given the name of the title. I get it, but it's kind of like okay, well, hold on now. We are just a daredevil show, guys. You know what I mean? Like let's calm down uh dad. And you know, and how many times do we gotta see Foggy being a good guy before we realize he's a good guy? Tired of it, be done with it. I can get past some of that stuff, and but we do get the same argument between him and the what's her face there that towards the end, the same argument he had with Frank. This is a better episode, but it is like we're retreading still. Like, let's get there, let's get there. And we and of course, it does get there. This does go steps forward that I like. This episode's half and half for me. I love it, half of me loves it. The other half of me is being real real nasty to it. Do you like my nickname for for Kingpin? Big Willy No Wife. Yeah, so he's gotta calm down. That's all I could think of. Yeah, feel bad for him, but he's you know.

SPEAKER_09 1:37:43

Uh moving on from Kingpin, though, we finally get um well, it's been teased in all of the marketing for this movie or the show, I'm sorry, um, is Jessica Jones making her triumph return and first appearance in in Canon MCU. Yep. Because I know those Netflix things are still opening air, although we at this point, guys, those Netflix shows, they are MCU. It's just now they're trying to interweave them into the fabric of it, which they're just hinting they've always been there. Now they're just bringing it to our face type thing. Yeah, all the Defender stuff. What took me by surprise is that she had a child.

SPEAKER_05 1:38:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_09 1:38:21

I will admit, when I found out that was her and that was her daughter, her daughter is Danielle Cage from the comics. So her and Luke Cage broke a lot of beds to make her. I know because if you watch the Jessica Jones show, every bed they did stuff in, they they broke it. So it's just a little joke right there, but man. Um and she's got their both their powers. Yes, which is pretty cool. That's the thing. That's the you know, Jessica Jones is one of those characters because of her unnatural super strength, which we actually do in her show get an explanation of why she has that. That's right. Uh unlike Wilson Fisk. Um and yes, to a degree, Luke Cage, although I don't remember, like I said, I haven't finished the Luke Cage show, guys. And he's not in this episode, of course, by the way. But um that that would be the only pairing for her to be able to do stuff with is Luke Cage because of their super strength and super strength meeting up type thing. It is I find this very interesting that her super strength and super abilities are um tampered with, they're dampered down because of having the kid, which makes me want to learn more about how is it that she got her powers. Because I've never heard personally, and I'm not saying this is not true in the comics, because I don't remember in the top of my head if in the comics Jessica Jones had this or not. I for some reason I think that she did. But any character having a kid and then finding out that that's hindering their abilities. I've not heard of that. We don't hear of Sue Storm getting uh her powers dampered by having like the little baby god Franklin. Actually, her powers heightened in fear and stuff like that. So um I just I haven't heard of that in any comic form of anything, um, of any character. So this is my first time really hearing about it and seeing it and seeing how they're gonna play it out. I will admit when I first heard it, I'm like, oh, you nerfed her. Why? But par me is like, I know it's a sort of a daredevil story, but par me now really wants to know what happened if that was accurate in the comics too.

SPEAKER_03 1:40:33

What do you think the chances are? Do you think it's just she's going through something like uh Toby McGuire asked, My powers are weird, maybe because I did have a kid, or or or I don't know, something going on. Or do you think because of having the kid the powers are diminished? Yeah, that she passed them on. I I actually would like that because at least it would be better than just for some reason I'm not feeling good today and I don't have it anymore. To me, it's like if she had a kid and then all of a sudden, oh by the way, you had these powers, but we didn't know yours would do this. You know, and that's just how it works. To me, that would be kind of interesting that I agree. Like she'll probably never lose it, but maybe it'll never be the same again because it's kind of like a passed on gene that but it actually literally goes kind of thing. Well, because we don't know how much it's affected him either yet. Yeah, it could be the same thing with him. I mean, what if we when we meet him, his powers is diminished as well. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_09 1:41:32

We we don't yeah, we don't know when we see Luke Cage if it's diminished his powers or not. And honestly, they both got their powers in different ways, so maybe it didn't diminish him. Right. Maybe, maybe their daughter's powers, excuse me, are a direct carry-on from the mother, not from the father because of it. Because I mean, we never know about that, too. Um, we hear about like when it comes to mutants and stuff like that. Not always is that X gene carried on to the child, right? Sometimes it is, and then you hear the opposite to people that don't have the X gene, all of a sudden they had it dormant or was passed in their their family's past, and then what do you know? You got little baby iceman.

SPEAKER_03 1:42:11

In other words, they just it's yeah, it's random as random can be.

SPEAKER_09 1:42:14

It's random, yeah. So we don't know yet how the MCU is going to tackle Jack Jessica Jones in regards to her powers. Um, I will say this does give a very interesting story storytelling perspective on Jessica Jones for um whether she does her own future project or her ensemble thing. Because that one of the things about Jessica Jones is she's always been super powerful. So how do you give her a villain that she just can't walk over and beat up? That's why the first season of Jessica Jones was so good because they understood that, and they understood they're tackling it as a psychological thing with the purple man and him just saying something wasn't enough for her to stop doing stuff. That's why that was just really well written.

SPEAKER_03 1:42:58

Um, or they had to nerf her, like you said. Yeah, we gotta put her in here, but if we put her in here, game's over. Not if we nerf her.

SPEAKER_09 1:43:06

Yeah, because in all reality, Jessica Jones could walk up to um Mayor Fisk and they can have a real legit. Big Willy Noah. Yes, yeah, they can have a real legit fight right there that's that'll make that match that he had, uh, that in that boxing match look like peanuts. So um, yeah, we'll find out what because this is only episode six. Yeah. What are the is there like nine episodes, I think? Eight.

SPEAKER_03 1:43:31

Oh, I'm not sure. I actually never did look ahead and see how many it was gonna be. Yeah, I'm not sure how many there will be, but yeah.

SPEAKER_09 1:43:36

There's at least two more episodes I at least I think of, guys. Yeah. So and it sounds like she's sticking around to a degree a little bit because she is bringing forth to carry on for our breakdown of the episode, um, to uh Matt Murdoch, to Daredevil, that Mr. Charles is part of the CIA and his part of the risk. And she reveals I had to remember this earlier today. I kept thinking about the episode getting ready for today's podcast, and I'm like, I have to remember to mention because it's almost like a if you blinked, you missed it type of thing, how she said it. But the whole reason she's there is because the CIA is recruiting superpowered people.

SPEAKER_03 1:44:15

The direct tie in the thunderbolts, right?

SPEAKER_09 1:44:17

Direct tie in the thunderbolts, yes, and that some people have already said yes. Now, we speculated early on in our branch point breakdowns of this um where this fell in the MCU timeline. There's no official word, it's just fans saying, oh, this takes place directly after Thunderbolts. That's why when you have the mayor saying things like martial law and different things, it doesn't affect them, vice versa. I know that this is all fan theory, and it's hard to differentiate sometimes between what does Marvel really want us to know versus what's gonna be confusing to us? Um but if this does take place after the Thunderbolts movie, it makes me wonder are the Thunderbolts gonna get a bigger roster in the future? Are they gonna be the actual Thunderbolts we know of the comics that has characters like Baron Zemo? Who have they already recruited? Are they have they recruited characters that are already introduced in like the Netflix shows? That's because this is kind of like the Netflix show on Disney Plus type thing. It just brings up a whole bunch of other questions, but we're gonna get to more than Mr. Charles in a moment. What are your thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_03 1:45:23

Yeah, I think I thought we established that this was taking place right like right before the Thunderbolts.

SPEAKER_09 1:45:30

If that's true, if that is where the timeline is.

SPEAKER_01 1:45:32

If that's true, she missed her chance to be an Avenger. She should have said yes. She'd be there with them now, and you know, she'd be one of the new Avengers.

SPEAKER_03 1:45:41

It'd be yeah, it'd be kind of cool. But um, yeah, I I yeah, who knows? I this is why I struggle with why when they start relating things to the movies and the shows when it's not very clear to us where it sets. It's like, you know, but it wasn't a blatant, it wasn't like they said names, so it it it could just be easily if you if you're not paying attention, you won't even know it. You know, it's us guys are gonna pick this apart and figure that out, you know. And and who's Mr. Charles not working with at this point? Like he's he's creating coups and overtoppling people all over the place. He's I feel like Mr. Charles ends up with whoever the winner is most of the time. Does that make sense? Like he's like on everyone's side until there's one that clearly wins, and he's definitely on their side. Because he's making promises to everybody left and right in a way, but you seem like he's it seems like he's in different corners all the time of things, right? But he's definitely got a lot to do with this, with the CIA connection of them asking these characters to, you know, to do these things. It's a great connection to all this. It shows that there's a there is a bigger picture out there, you know, than what's going on. And I like that they that that's at least somewhat acknowledged for us guys.

SPEAKER_09 1:46:49

Yeah. No, I agree. I think then the the next episode or future episodes of this season, we're gonna get a clear picture of of the the any power or might that he has because it was very clear in this episode that he does not like Wilson Fist not doing anything or not doing what he wants him to do. And Wilson Fist is just like, I just lost my my wife. I'm not doing anything that I don't want to do. I'm not gonna be pushed by anybody. And now we're gonna be able to see, okay, some of those heroes that they recruited or superpowered people they recruited. I bet you by the end of this uh season, we're gonna see what who the CIA has recruited. Yeah, whether it is the actual Thunderbolts, if this is before the Thunderbolts, or this is after the Thunderbolts, and it's just a whole new team of stuff that's made for Disney Plus type thing. Yeah, we're gonna see them. I think that this Jessica Jones was the tipping of the iceberg of letting us as the audience know through the Daredevil story that there's something else bigger going on here, and that they're rope roping um the kingpin into this. And we're gonna we're really gonna see, in my opinion, Daredevil versus Kingpin versus uh Mr. Charles. And we're gonna figure out who's the most powerful of of these three people, who's gonna prevail.

SPEAKER_03 1:48:08

Would be pretty wild to see Walmart Captain America show up.

SPEAKER_09 1:48:11

Yeah, see him be a crazy, just see them all show up.

SPEAKER_03 1:48:16

Yeah, I mean, I don't know if they're gonna go that big, but probably not, not for their devil, not for this uh when they're preparing for other things right now. You I do kind of have a spoiler warning for Spider-Man. Okay, or something to do with Spider-Man. You did you notice that they went to the mayor it to get her to they they told the mayor, look, we're gonna get rid of you, or or well, they're gonna help her, but they also want to get rid of her, right? At the same time, this is what Mr. Charles guy is. He's a wild if I remember right.

SPEAKER_09 1:48:45

This is the governor going to her saying we want you to run for office.

SPEAKER_03 1:48:48

And then yeah, then this is them going to the yes, going to the yeah, about running for office, right? And uh yeah, I said mayor, didn't I? I apologize, guys. Yeah, no, uh, this is the mayor, the governor going to Sheila is the name of the woman, and that's who is handing uh Spider-Man the key, isn't it? Yep. You know, it's funny, I I I was looking at that and I saw a picture online, and before I read the caption, I'm like, that's the same girl. And I read the caption and there it was. So I kind of saw it without help, but I didn't. Someone had to point it out. I don't remember where I saw it, guys. Yeah, but I was like, oh wow, that's interesting. But yeah, that's an interesting fact right there that I think that might tell a little bit of timeline-wise as well. Uh might tell a little bit of like the outcome of what's coming. I don't think it's a world big spoiler if this person takes over as mayor. I think we're seeing the end of Fisk. Yeah. Well, I don't think we're gonna see him die, but I think we're gonna see him put into that Supermax prison in the ocean, probably. I mean, if he can do the stuff he can do physically, then you need to put him out in the raft.

SPEAKER_08 1:49:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_09 1:49:47

I think uh that was very interesting.

SPEAKER_03 1:49:49

He's a raft villain.

SPEAKER_09 1:49:50

That was very interesting uh storytelling in the Netflix show. Because the Netflix show did say there what is the raft and stuff like that. We found out in Jessica Jones season two or three. That uh her sister was put into the raft because of the powers that she she got herself.

SPEAKER_01 1:50:05

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um so there could be something there to that.

SPEAKER_06 1:50:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_09 1:50:10

Yeah, totally. So I mean, uh, what else happened in this episode, to be honest?

SPEAKER_03 1:50:16

I think that was the main other than seeing Foggia a couple hundred more times. Uh did you care about any of that? I mean, how do you feel about bullseye still wanting to die? I mean, you know, retread, right? Like, I I feel like we need this point to finish to get I just wanted I agree. This this could have been a full-out fight between Daredevil and Kingpin. I would rather 10 more minutes of that than say, okay, cool, foggy, you're awesome. We get it. Yeah, this is why Daredevil is who he is. If we get one more flashback with him, guys, we might as well just, I don't know, just bring him back to life at this point.

SPEAKER_09 1:50:52

Yeah, I mean, yeah, I so when I saw him as a flashback in the last episode, I thought, okay, that it was in in tune to what the episode was. Flashbacks of everybody because it's a filler episode, like we said, they need to buy some time to get to the real action, the real point of us doing this stuff and all that stuff. And you're saying goodbye to a couple characters, one of them was Foggy, one of them was Vanessa. You're actually getting a goodbye to her in that episode, type of thing. Um, I am not a fan of any show that repeatedly brings back a deceased character, especially honestly, a fan favorite character, this deceased, because it always gives the false impression that he's still gonna be there somehow. And in reality, even though it's just a memory, he's not gonna be there. Dude, I feel like it cheapens it. Yes, it loses its potency, it loses, yeah, yeah. The significance of Foggy's death is the reason why in Born Again Season One that we saw him say, I'm I'm not being Daredevil anymore. And it took all throughout season one for him to accept I need to come back as Daredevil.

SPEAKER_03 1:51:59

See, there should be a buildup to a moment that he has to make a decision, and then just before he makes that decision, we get like a 10-minute flashback, and then the decision gets made after that flashback, and that makes us all go, wow, that was powerful. Yeah, perfect example. I know you're I think you're gonna agree with me 100%. Lord of the Rings, Fellowship of the Ring. Gandalf dies later on at the end of the movie, after Balmir dies, the saddest moment in the movie, right? Then Frodo's standing by the edge of the water, and he remembers saying, I wish it'd never come to me. And then you see that image of Gandalf, and he says the famous lines of we just have to decide what to do with the time that we have left. Holy I can't say it now without my hair standing up. Now, if he had done that six times since he died, and there was like six times there was some sort of remembering Gandalf saying something good. I don't know if that would have had the same effect that moment. Yeah. Because that moment makes me cry every time I watch the movie. You're right. Like I just cried from Balomir, and as soon as he said you see his face and how he says it, that's the member berries you want. That's the whole use these things with Foggy for those moments. Now I feel like we're just watching another show in a show. It's like cool. I get the feeling. You want us, it's just now the emotion of it, it just it's just too much for me. Um, but that's but that's my biggest complaints about the show. Other than that, this is a great show, guys. You should be watching it. But I definitely, you know, I'm just I'm gonna be TV shows. I told you guys, I'm I'm way more I can be picky about the movies too, but I can be way more picky about TV shows because this is an investment, this is an hour every week of my time.

SPEAKER_09 1:53:37

I will say this is much better of a TV show than what other Disney Plus shows have.

SPEAKER_03 1:53:41

Oh, for sure.

SPEAKER_09 1:53:42

Yes, this is like he said, it's definitely worth the time to watch it. But yes, yeah, I get it. And don't let us when we nitpick an episode because it's too slow or not our cup of tea type thing. Doesn't mean it's not gonna be good for you, too. So especially if you're new to Daredevil and you didn't know about the previous um Netflix shows, that actually episode from last week would be a little refreshing for you to give you a fresher backstory on who Foggy really was, who Vanessa was when she started, and all that stuff.

SPEAKER_03 1:54:11

Um, this is just my personal feelings, you know.

SPEAKER_09 1:54:14

For people like like myself that have gone through all the Netflix show and things like that, it's just a filler episode. And I don't mean that to be a bad way, but it was, it just was. Yeah, it is what it is.

SPEAKER_03 1:54:26

This one was better. This one's much better. We're going the right direction.

SPEAKER_09 1:54:29

Yeah, this is the train continuing to move forward to the station.

SPEAKER_03 1:54:32

We're right on the verge of a whole bunch of crap going down, you know, people getting shot in the streets and all sorts of stuff.

SPEAKER_09 1:54:37

And now we see the kingpin has a new purpose when his wife is not here, and we get to see what a real Kingpin without the leash being wrapped around him is gonna look like.

SPEAKER_03 1:54:47

Here's what I'm hoping. When he finally goes unhinged and they decide to just go ahead and do this, what this is going to be. Like, I hope it's spectacular. Because if it's not, I want to be like all that for nothing. Because we got a lot of build up, build up, build up. I want to see this dude just be like, you know what? It don't matter anymore. It's all or nothing. Because what he's dangerous now, he's scary now. How scary is he when he's backed into a corner? When now the world knows you're evil, we're about to go put the handcuffs on you, whatever would hold you, and put you in prison. That's when he's gonna be the most dangerous and the most scary. I want to see that. I want to see that half an episode of him just going oh wild.

SPEAKER_06 1:55:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:55:33

Like if we get that, I'll be a happy guy. If we don't get that, we'll be like, okay, what do we do all that for? Yeah. You know, I don't want him to die, actually. I kind of want him to live, but I would like to see him go hog wild. I'd like to see them. This is a real detriment. Like everybody knows it, you know. And then, you know, when he comes back later on for different reasons, find good reason to bring him back. Yeah. But it'll always be as a villain and not as a guy pretending to be nice. But let's ru let's make him who he is. I want to see the raw Kingpin now. Give him to me. We're ready.

SPEAKER_06 1:56:06

His wife's dead. Do it.

SPEAKER_04 1:56:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_09 1:56:11

Well, and also um I'm very curious, and I this I'm trying to remember all the specifics about this, but if I remember, it was at the end of season three of the Netflix show that um when Daredevil had Kingpin literally as one of the last scenes of the show, pinned against the wall after a brutal fight uh between both of them, because it's you know, there's a climax as the last episode, folks. Matt says that I will um I and I don't mean it like literally bury your wife, but I will I he threatened Kingpin with Vanessa, knowing that uh to keep Matt Murdoch's identity private. He said, if you tell anyone that I am Matt Murdoch, I will tell everyone that who Vanessa killed. Because if Vanessa did kill someone in that season, and he was using that as leverage against Kingpin so he doesn't get his precious wife taken away. Now we see Vanessa is dead. There is no their ramifications that you can't take her away, she's already gone. So now I'm curious to see if that little at the end of season three, two more seasons later, is gonna pay off.

SPEAKER_03 1:57:26

Um yeah, because if he goes full scorch earth, then what what what good is it to him keeping Matt Murdoch secret?

SPEAKER_09 1:57:33

Yep, yeah, because the narrative right now in Born Again is we need to find Matt Murdoch because he saved my life, he's a hero. We need to find Daredevil because he's a vigilante and he's destroying everything. But now he doesn't have to separate them. He could publicly say, we have discovered that the identity of Daredevil is Matt Murdoch, and he is to be brought in at all costs. And then Daredevil can't hide in any form. Matt Murdoch can't.

SPEAKER_05 1:58:01

Right.

SPEAKER_09 1:58:01

And we don't know what that looks like. We don't know what his anti-vigilante task force is gonna look like. We don't know if Mr. Charles is ticked off enough. He's gonna call Valentina Allegra de Fontaine down at the CIA and say, send up a super soldier because we're gonna need him. We have no idea what's gonna happen next.

SPEAKER_03 1:58:16

You know, it would be wild. Well I might call this right now. Hot take. Maybe. If if this is true, I think this is the first this might not be the first place you heard this because I'm not watching a lot of Daredevil commentary out there. What if Mr. Charles and and whatever's going on in that whole situation cause Daredevil and Kingpin to work together by the end of the season?

SPEAKER_09 1:58:41

Like they'd bring in something that's even worse that both of them are like, yeah, we need to do something about it.

SPEAKER_03 1:58:46

Well, with Daredevil's newfound, you know, justice and he's turning red again.

SPEAKER_06 1:58:50

What if it's a matter of you know, he proves to Kingpin in a way that I'm not here to kill you and then but Kingpin is gonna be pushed against the wall because right now you gotta think Mr.

SPEAKER_03 1:59:09

Charles is a danger to more so Kingpin than anybody else right now. So what if that's kind of what if that's Matt's way of brokering a piece with him, and we don't get this big climax fight with them, instead we get an ultimate team up with them and it's a kind of against something else. And then they kind of go their own way, which could save more for later. I don't kinda I don't really love that, but it would be the only way I could see I'd be okay with no big fight between the.

SPEAKER_09 1:59:42

I'd be satisfied with that if the threat was big enough and the story was interesting enough. I'd be satisfied with that.

SPEAKER_03 1:59:47

If the threat was big enough in in Matt and Daredevil or Matt as Daredevil pro like shows Kingpin like, look, as bad as you are in everything you've done and all this that you did, what this guy can do and what is behind him and what they can do has to be stopped right now. And he and Kingpin's gonna be like, Well, I gotta, I do have to say it could be my life.

SPEAKER_09 2:00:09

Yeah, the the the the problem that I'm only seeing with this, I love it, honestly. I think I could see that as a satisfying end to this where you can still keep both characters there and stories, but you only now have at least two to three episodes left. Well, a lot can happen. If it and also, Marvel, you can't bring in something like the abomination or something because that is an Avengers level threat. Right. So you're gonna have to kill him. Anyway. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:00:40

Then you wouldn't be a threat.

SPEAKER_09 2:00:41

Wink. You're gonna have to, in the next two to three episodes, introduce a character and prove how menacing he is that or multiple characters, yeah.

SPEAKER_10 2:00:52

That could be. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:00:54

Right? Um some of them said yes. That's all I'm saying. I mean, there's a there's a pathway to this in three episodes? Hell yeah. I've seen a I've seen a TV show wrap up in three episodes.

SPEAKER_09 2:01:05

Introduce something completely genetically new that hasn't been talked about.

SPEAKER_10 2:01:09

And then that's how it does. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 2:01:13

And this is what the show needs. I'm I will we are on the verge of an explosion as it is. I'll give you this. Why not? These next three episodes should be like bam, bam, bam, and make us go, when is season three coming?

SPEAKER_06 2:01:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:01:24

Yeah. Or end with them saying we're working together, and season three is them working together. Give us that. I'm willing to entertain the whole thing. We don't need to finish everything and get it ready. What if the twist of the end of season two is them shaking hands? And we're like, what's that mean? I don't know, tune in next year. I'm in. I'd come back to watch it.

SPEAKER_09 2:01:46

If they're this ambitious and they do something like that, I'll have a newfound respect for what they're doing into this.

SPEAKER_03 2:01:51

And if they do it, I'll give you guys my address, they owe me money. No, I'm kidding. I'm just saying, it's like I think, I mean, I'm just calling. I if I was a writer of this, I actually might entertain the idea of going that direction.

SPEAKER_09 2:02:03

If they take that sort of swing, I would be very impressed. Very impressed.

SPEAKER_03 2:02:09

Yeah, me too. All right, it'd be a hell of a swing.

SPEAKER_09 2:02:12

Anything else about this episode in particular?

SPEAKER_03 2:02:14

But no, keep watching it, guys. You'll see us, you know, we'll talk about the next one. But yeah, it this was a better one, and now I kind of hope my theory comes true. I would for the sake of the show. Yeah, it's yeah, but hey, we'll talk, maybe we'll talk more about it later.

SPEAKER_09 2:02:28

So all right, guys. Let us know in the comments below what you thought about this episode. What did you think about our commentary about it? Did you agree with us? Did you not agree with us? Um, please subscribe and uh share with a friend because we want to get this get the show off the um off the runway, the displaying off the runway there. Uh thank you so much for tuning into this. And check out more of our content right now. What are we doing next?

SPEAKER_03 2:02:50

Well, next we're gonna jump into our retrospective of Avengers. It's the first Avengers movie, and we're gonna go ahead and pile it all out for you. Finally good music. Oh, we'll talk about it. Yes, all right.

SPEAKER_09 2:03:04

All right, so stay tuned, folks. Thanks.

SPEAKER_03 2:03:13

All right, guys, thanks for staying with us. We're gonna move on to now our retrospective of the first Avengers movie. This will probably be part one of a part two with this guy, so bear with us. There's gonna be a lot to talk about. And so we're very excited. You excited for this one, Sammy? I know you've been looking forward forward to it all week.

SPEAKER_09 2:03:32

I am very excited. I will say right in the beginning for all of us or all of those, all of you who are watching and listening to this right now, that the audio version of this will have the full episode. So if you're streaming on Spotify or Amazon or Apple, wherever you're streaming, you are getting the full audio. But for the video part, that is a special little thing that we're trying to do for anyone who becomes a member to our channel. So you'll still get part one and part two on our YouTube channel. It's just that the full episode from the multiverse minutes all the way down to our retrospective, that might become an exclusive for our members on the channel if you're interested. But once that feature is unlocked for us, it'll probably be there for you.

SPEAKER_01 2:04:16

Yeah, yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_09 2:04:17

Yeah, but until then, this yeah, like my brother said, this is part one. And um, thank you for joining us.

SPEAKER_03 2:04:24

Yeah. So we're gonna do it, guys, like we've been doing it pretty much. And we're gonna give you kind of a history and background on this movie and what how it got made and all the fun stuff behind it. And then we're gonna jump into each act and we'll go back and forth reading the acts and break them apart a little bit and have our fun little questionnaire at the end and give it a an honest rating. This is gonna be a tough one today, guys, because I like to try to be tough on these, and I was very tough on this movie, and I'm I think you'll still be pleased on how I feel about it. And I am, I'm surprised. I I didn't know how much I liked this one until after we watched it again. So just a little sneak peek there. So here we go. Let's talk about uh the beginning of this whole thing and how it all started, okay, guys? Excuse me. So there are blockbuster hits, there are cultural moments, and there are films that permanently alter the rules of the industry. The Avengers in 2012 belongs in that last category. It was not simply a successful superhero movie, it was a cinematic experiment that should have failed on paper and has failed before. A production built on years of setup, massive financial risk, creative uncertainty, and a bold belief that audiences would embrace a level of long-form storytelling Hollywood had rarely attempted. When I arrived in the theaters, it felt like the payoff to years of patience. Looking back now, it also feels like the beginning of a new era. Before the Avengers studios treated superhero films as isolated brands. Spider-Man had its own thing going on, X-Men had its own thing going on, Batman has had its own thing going on several times. You know, crossovers were rare, fantasies discussed by fans more than ever, ever by executives at studios. But Marvel Comics had always operated differently. Heroes shared worlds, one character could appear in another hero's story, threats escalated across the titles. The Avengers themselves were born from the idea that separate icons become something larger together. When Marvel Studios began producing its own movies, it attempted to bring that comic book architecture to cinema. The gamble started with Iron Man, of course. No one knew in 2008 that Iron Man would become the launch pad for one of the most successful franchises in entertainment history. Boy, ain't that the truth. It starred Robert Downey Jr., whose personal comeback story mirrored Tony Stark's reinvention. The film was witty, energetic, and unexpectedly beloved. Then came the post-credit scene. Samuel Jackson stepped in the frame as Nick Fury and said the words, I'm sick of these snakes. Oh, wait, no. Said the words Avengers Initiative. Sorry about that. It's just come out of me. I don't know what happened. Um that short scene changed the psychology of movie going. Suddenly, audiences realized these films might connect. The sequel was no longer just the next movie, it was part of a larger design. You know, then we had the Incredible Hulk, Iron Man 2, Thor, Captain America, each introduced mythology, artifacts, organizations, and heroes that would eventually collide. At the time, no studio had proven this could work. Today, shared universes feel normal. In 2012, they felt unstable. Marvel's plan required multiple successful solo films, audiences' memory across years of continuity, actors willing to return long term, tonal consistency between wildly different characters, a crossover movie balancing six heroes without collapsing under its own weight. If the Avengers failed, the entire model could have been discredited. And I actually believe that is true. Instead of building one franchise, Marvel had built several and bet that they could merge into one. To direct the film, Marvel chose Joss Sweden. After the Avengers, Hollywood changed course. Studios mind the right spot. I apologize, folks. That's what happens when I don't have all my papers together. Anyways, the decision made sense. Creativity create creativity, Lily. Oof, that's a tough one. Whedon had long experience writing ensemble casts where every character needed a distinct voice. He understood banter, tension, teen, teen dynamics, emotional turns, and genre storytelling. That mattered because the Avengers had a structural challenge few films ever face. How do you make six protagonists feel essential? The answer was not to make them friends immediately, the answer was conflict. Of course, guys, that we had this amazing cast. We got Robert Downey Jr. as Tony Stark, Iron Man. We got Chris Evans, Steve Rogers, Captain America, Sam's Man. We got Chris Hemsworth as Thor. Oh yeah. And then we have a new addition, Mark Ruffalo, but as Bruce Banner's the Hulk, which we will talk about this time, you know, and it probably for the best, to be honest. We got Scarlet Johanson coming back, Natasha Romanoff, Black Widow, probably some of the best we've ever seen. Jeremy Renner, Clint Barton as Hawkeye coming back. That's our that's our lineup. That's our Avengers in this movie, guys. And then we have a great supporting cast, The Return of Tom Hiddleston as Loki.

SPEAKER_06 2:09:59

I mean, that's awesome in its own. Let me make sure I have the right one.

SPEAKER_03 2:10:07

We got Samuel Jackson as Nick Fury. And we got a couple newcomers. Well, we got one newcomer, really, other than Mark Ruffalo, but a whole new character with Colby Smolders. Am I saying her name correctly?

SPEAKER_06 2:10:21

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 2:10:21

That's a strange name. Do you think that's her real name? I don't think that's her real name. We'll have to let that up. I'd like to ask her. She's very funny. She's great in the show. Anyways, we're gonna have to jump. Uh Colby Schmolders is Maria Hill. Clark Gregg is Phil Colson, and Stellan Starsgard is Eric Sevlig, which is probably he has three sons that they're just like they come out of the womb and they're ready to act. Like they're unbelievable. This whole family is insane. But yeah. So the production scale and the visuals were very ambitious. There's a lot of ambition here, guys. The movie moved forward or moved between script facilities, the helicarrier, secret facilities. I apologize. Secret facilities, the helicrier, Stark Tower, and a city alien invasion, and a citywide alien invasion. It required practical sets, digital effects, motion capture, stunt coordination, and a ton that could shift from spy thriller to cosmic war to workplace comedy. Boy, that's true. The Battle of New York became the defining third act of the era. Instead of isolating heroes in separate corners, the action followed through teamwork. Do not live in New York City in the Marvel cinematic universe.

SPEAKER_00 2:11:40

I think that's where I got I got my papers mixed up before.

SPEAKER_03 2:11:46

We got Captain America directing civilians and police, being that leader that he is. We got Iron Man taking aerial responsibility. We got Thor controlling choke points. We got Hulk smashing stuff. We got Hawkeye providing. Providing tactical support, and we got Black Widow solving the actual mission objective and doing some awesome stunts on top of it. And the humor of this guy's another behind-the-scenes challenge was tone. Could the movie be funny without becoming parody? The answer was character-based humor. Tony provoking everyone. Banner's dirty intelligence or dry intelligence. Oh, where was I going with that? Dry intelligence. Thor's regal confusion. Steve's earnestness is a mod in a modern world, which is some of my favorite stuff in this, which I can't wait to talk about. Then when needed, the movie turned serious. Colson's death gave emotional momentum, spoiler alert. Tony's missile sacrifice gave danger. Loki's invasion gave urgency. That tonal balance became a model. Many later blockbusters tried to emulate. When the Avengers opened, it became an event, as did the rest of them when they came. Its approximate production budget was around $220 million. And it earned roughly $1.5 billion worldwide. We're talking worldwide, making it one of the biggest films ever at its time. Critical reception was strong, with Rotten Tomato scores historically in the low 90s from critics and similarly high audience enthusiasm. But numbers alone missed the point. The film created trust. Anyas now believed Marvel's promise could pay off. Might need your other paper. Oh, it's the next one. Thank you. After the Avengers, Hollywood changed course. Boy, that's for sure. Studios pursued shared universes, crossover planning, post-credit teases, multi-film roadmaps, and event storytelling. Some succeeded, many did not. Marvel, however, had already learned the deeper lesson. Shared universes only work when individual stories matter first. That lesson led to Avengers Age of Ultron, Captain America's Civil War, or Avengers 1.2, or is that what they call that? 2.0, thank you. Yeah. Avengers Infinity War, you know, an Avengers Endgame. And now we got Avengers Doom Day and Doomsday and Avengers Secret Wars coming. Without the success of the first team up, those films may never have existed in the same form. Some films age as entertainment, others are milestones. The Avengers remain as both. It captured the thrill of seeing beloved characters meet, fight, and unite. It delivered spectacle while respecting character. It rewarded years of audience investment before cinematic universe became standard language, which it really is today. You know, everything is what's the universe it's going to be in? Well, I mean, it's when you think about it in that way. Most importantly, it prov it proved modern audiences would comment to a sterilized film saga if the payoff was worth it. That was the impossible promise in 2008. By 2012, it was reality. So, guys, ultimately The Avengers was not merely a movie assembled from heroes. It was a studio assembled from risk, a fine uh a franchise assembled from patience, a cast assembled from perfect timing, which is big, and an industry assembled afterward in its image. All right. Well, sorry for the paperwork mess up, fellas.

SPEAKER_09 2:15:39

Oh, that's okay. This is a big one. This is a big one. So, as you could tell, we when we're getting ready for our retrospectives, we do our homework and we research and we write as much as we can about this movie. Yeah. So what Ike was reading there was something we wrote up on the history behind this film, and it's all true. All very, very true.

SPEAKER_03 2:16:03

There's a lot to it. You know, this was a big deal. This was we did see a lot of this in other movies and stuff, and it did start a lot of those. You know, we got franchises like Transformers and all that, and these guys kind of you know solidify. I would I would argue that I think X-Men may have paved that way a little easier, but not to this extent. Not to the extent where you get all these heroes in one giant story and one big movie. So I can't wait to dig in here. What do you think? We're gonna go for it.

SPEAKER_09 2:16:29

Let's do it. I'm gonna start off real quick, guys, by giving the official synopsis of the Avengers, and then we'll just jump right into reading Act One. All right, the official synopsis for Marvel's Avengers. When an unexpected enemy, Loki, emerges to threaten global safety, Nick Fury, the director of SHIELD, brings together a team of superheroes: Iron Man, Captain America, the Hulk, Thor, Black Widow, and Hawkeye to stop his alien invasion. Earth's mightiest heroes must learn to work together to save the world. Alright. Who big one guys? Are we ready?

SPEAKER_03 2:17:09

I'm ready.

SPEAKER_09 2:17:10

Let's get our hands in. Why don't you read the beginning of act one and we'll do our digging?

SPEAKER_03 2:17:16

Yeah, let's do this. So act one guy is assembling the team, pretty much the setup, okay? When the when the dangerous cosmic threat of the Tesseract is activated by Loki, that guy, director Nick Feary of SHIELD initiates the Avengers initiative. He recruits individual heroes, Tony Stark, Steve Rogers, Thor, Bruce Banner, Natasha Romanoff, and Clint Barton. However, tensions quickly arise as conflicting personalities and agendas cause the team to fracture before it can fully form.

SPEAKER_09 2:17:49

Mm-hmm. You know, it's hard to say the little breakdown of act one and just one paragraph.

SPEAKER_06 2:17:57

Oh, yeah, because yeah, ridiculous.

SPEAKER_09 2:17:59

Like we we totally left out that Clinton Barton was not even an Avenger in all of Act One.

SPEAKER_03 2:18:05

Yeah. He's a bad guy.

SPEAKER_09 2:18:06

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 2:18:07

About 70% of this movie. Yeah. Yeah. Which which normally wouldn't work, but it worked for this, for my opinion. Oh, yes, it will.

SPEAKER_09 2:18:16

When we get to Clinton Barton, because we're gonna do character deep dives. Oh, for sure. For sure. I'm gonna tell you a little bit about him that I I liked of his character in this movie. So alright, what worked for you in the beginning?

SPEAKER_03 2:18:28

So and it's so gen this whole thing works. Yeah. I mean, it's so generalized. So to be very specific, I will say what works well, in my opinion, is their way of bringing the characters together worked. They could have been real cheesy, real weird, and real convoluted, but I think they're very smart the way they did it. Specifically Thor showing up. Because like they capture Loki after he kind of does his thing, and Thor shows up to take his brother. Like, I'm here for my brother. And it turns into this conflict in the woods, right? And and I kind of I enjoy that this is how these characters get together. Right up and obviously right up until we get to act two, which is them on the helicarrier together, which is pretty much where this act ends, is right before we get to there. Yeah, that is fantastic. Like, this is how they all got in one spot. Very believable. I don't know how many movies I've watched, Sam, where it's like they get the characters together and they're bringing them all together, and it's and it's all real convoluted, and you gotta talk somebody into it. No, they took their time, they made sure this is part of this movie. Them becoming a team is almost more of this movie than the actual thing the bad guy's trying to do. And I think that was the smartest thing, and that by doing that was what they did in the beginning of this. You know, and what what yeah, oh for sure, for sure. And the other thing that really worked for me is the layers of deception. I like that they laid on this how Loki's who he is, but then how we can't quite trust Shield either. I'm happy. And that that's gonna get a little more into act two, but that's I do like that there's some shadiness all around.

SPEAKER_06 2:19:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:19:58

And you know, these heroes are kind of in the middle of it because they're just a bunch of dudes. Bunch of well, and women, sorry. But they're just kind of like, you know, they're they're trying to do the right thing. All of them have their own reason to be there that's better than what the even the people that brought them there have. Yeah, I think that's very interesting. So that if I had to be specific about what works, I'm gonna say those things work for me. Now, it's gonna be hard to uh discuss what doesn't. I'm not gonna lie, because this first act's fantastic. What worked what what specifically you had to point out what worked for you the most? Because I know a lot of it works. So what worked the most for you?

SPEAKER_09 2:20:32

Well, I'll tell you what. Um I I've in preparation for this episode, I must have watched this movie at least three, minimum three, if not four or five times, just because I just kept putting it on repeat. The robot watchability factor of this movie is amazing. And for anyone who likes superhero movies, even if you're not a fan of the Avengers, you I can't I can't imagine someone watching this movie and not being thoroughly entertained by every bit of it, from the dialogue to the scenes to how many different scenes they could fit into this one movie was fantastic. And as you already said, the most fun I had was figuring out where these characters are and then how are they bringing them together. Yeah. You know, it's you're right. This could have been real cheesy, real corny of a superhero movie. You could tell they're trying to take themselves very seriously and they're doing big leaps to establish this universe. And the first time they're interconnecting every one of these heroes together, because let's face it, they had the formula already for each individual hero. We've seen what four up until this point?

SPEAKER_01 2:21:39

Yeah, yep.

SPEAKER_09 2:21:39

And so they had that down, they knew how to do that. But the trickiest part is assembling this team, doing it right, and then carrying it forward. And I know after this movie, when we get into Iron Man 3 in the next episode, we're gonna talk about how important that is once you've established a connected shared universe, how you could creatively keep a solo character going with uh connected universe, and that is hard. And even Marvel had a it's uh cut a couple um stumbles here or there, but um for this movie to really tie it up and bring them all together for the first time, this was magnificent. That opening scene, oh my gosh, the nostalgia just hit me right in the face as I press play. I'm like, wow, this is it was just so good. It's just an epic opening scene.

SPEAKER_00 2:22:28

It really is, too.

SPEAKER_09 2:22:29

Yeah, it's just it is it is really cool. Um it's it's hard for me to say anything else that worked because everything everything really worked really well for the scene.

SPEAKER_03 2:22:40

Right, right. Well, let's talk about a couple of those things for fun. I mean, I know we might a little bit later, but I thought we'd dive into a couple little things. Oh, certainly. So I specifically want to talk about Loki because I always thought that we'll get more into him a little later, but in this introduction of him in this, I wondered to myself if I was remembering it wrong and that maybe Loki wouldn't have been the best choice for the villain of this movie. But as soon as we got started, I was like, oh man. No, oh man, like this is awesome. Like his commanding voice when he's getting all those people to kneel in that Times Square there or whatever. I know it's not Times Square, but in the square of uh wherever they are. It's just he's just you know, he's what a jerk, right? Like it and he's scary. And we're gonna talk about specific scene of his later. Oh, yeah, but he's very scary.

SPEAKER_09 2:23:25

He is uh whatever you saw in the first door movie, it is amplified by 10.

SPEAKER_03 2:23:30

Up it is like this solidifies Loki in my team. You know, yeah, you're right, you're right. This solidifies, in my opinion, uh why he's one of the best supervillains that they've had in the MCU. And even though there's this ring around of him becoming good and this and that and blah blah, it's earned because of how bad he is here. And it's and this is why, guys, he's not gone. Like out of all the characters they keep bringing back to life or having a reason to be around, it it's hard to kill Loki off when you got someone like Tom playing this part. Like he's like he was born to do this, you know. And because I've seen his other stuff, and it's he's not a bad actor. I'm just not sure if I'm not sure I've seen anything of his outside of this that really impresses me. The way what he does in this impresses me.

SPEAKER_09 2:24:18

He committed to this character.

SPEAKER_03 2:24:19

Yeah, I'm I'm almost like, why aren't you uh putting that to your other films? Because your other films are okay, but but then once again, guys, I think it's the films he's in, right? But but when he goes for Loki, man, he goes the distance. Oh, and it's rocking.

SPEAKER_09 2:24:33

It's good. I would even dare say he's better at Loki than some of the comic versions of Loki is.

SPEAKER_03 2:24:39

Oh, I don't know Loki any other way.

SPEAKER_09 2:24:41

Yeah, no, but I'm like, even when you play the video games and things like that, it's like Loki's good and he's a he's a great bombastic type character, but Tom Hiddleston, he he brings that element, but also this uh the god of mischief part is he really plays into that like really too well to a degree. Like just not only is the writing perfect for him, but his performance in it is like top of the line, man.

SPEAKER_03 2:25:08

And it's crazy how good he is, is he still knows how not to overshadow Thor. Right. And compliment Chris's strengths and help him in his weaknesses in those parts. Whenever they're together, and anything they do is he never out acts him, he never show boats. It's not like Loki's the standout of the two. It's almost like you need both of them when you know when there is stuff going on. I think I just wanted to point in and with that, you know, let's go right into the fight in the woods. How about that? Like I this whole thing when Thor shows up, it's probably made me laugh the most. And it was some of the coolest stuff we got to see.

SPEAKER_09 2:25:47

You know, to see these are what Marvel has done uh since this movie, and I think they really recognized this early on. That's why we got such an epic opener of all them meeting the way they did. These are the top three guys of the MCU. And we even saw in the the end of Endgame when who was fighting Thanos head on before his army showed up, it was these three guys, and to see their personalities, which are so different, each one of them is so different, especially during this first Avengers movie at the time when you see what happened with Captain America, and now he's this man out of the time coming into the new world and still figuring things out. You see a more arrogant Tony Stark coming in saying, I'm gonna be Iron Man, I'm gonna be here no matter what. And then Thor, who's literally just there to get his brother, is like he doesn't care actually at this point what's going on with Earth, other than I need to save Earth from my brother, and now I found out he's alive. Like, that's a and that is a great emotional arc for Chris Hemsworth that I don't think people talk about enough in this movie is that he witnessed his brother die, and now he found him again, and they have great dialogue on top of that mountain about this in this first act. Like, yeah, my gosh, like we'll add to my hot takes later.

SPEAKER_01 2:27:02

Oh boy, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:27:05

There are a couple things in this guy's I have a slight issue with, but we'll get there.

SPEAKER_09 2:27:09

That's okay. Well, actually, um uh before I get to what didn't work for me for this act, because it sounded like that would have been the perfect segue. Uh we have to have to finish up with the scene at least.

SPEAKER_06 2:27:18

Oh, yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_09 2:27:20

Oh my, they're fighting in the woods. Every move that they made was perfect. Yeah, it was like ripped right out of a comic book. Like perfect. Like it's just it's crazy.

SPEAKER_03 2:27:32

It was crazy cool to see how it happened. The pacing was good, the dialogue's great. Like it just, it's just it fits. It could have been a weird scene.

SPEAKER_02 2:27:39

Yeah, it could have been awkward, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:27:41

And it almost was, but it was awkward like because they made it that way, which played into the story. Yeah, yeah, you know, because Tony just knew how to say stupid stuff, and like yeah, and whenever he says something, it's just man, you need to shut up. Yeah, it's like sometimes it's like Tony, you gotta stop pushing these people, man. Like, but he ain't afraid of nobody. Like I love when his suit is like, you're at 400%, and he's like, Oh, like he's learning things as they go with each other.

SPEAKER_09 2:28:06

Which is kind of cool because honestly, setting something like that up with how powerful Thor really is, yeah, type thing, especially later on when you see how powerful he is, you can tell how Tony is able to use things around him to adapt to survive type thing. He's much like Batman. I think that's that's yeah, yeah, to a degree, yeah. It's okay.

SPEAKER_03 2:28:25

I always consider him the Batman of the kind of is with preparation. Tony could beat probably almost anybody.

SPEAKER_09 2:28:31

If if Tony had that investigative skill like Batman did, he'd be exactly like Batman, just an Iron Man.

SPEAKER_03 2:28:36

If you really think of that, it's all he's missing.

SPEAKER_09 2:28:37

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_03 2:28:38

Because they're both rich, they both have a high tech, um, they both need a little prep time and they could probably be ready to smash anybody. And the only thing is Tony is kind of needs it in his face before it happens.

SPEAKER_06 2:28:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:28:49

When Batman, you know, because Batman arguably could lose to everybody, but if you give him two days, you might as well just surrender. Yeah, exactly. Be Batman first right away or surrender because he's gonna go back and figure out how to get you. Like, and then you're gonna be like, oh, he's too late. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_09 2:29:05

I love that. I love that about the Justice League that all of them have superpowers, but if you're a bad guy and you want to take on the Justice League, you have to hit Batman first. He's got no powers, but you have to hit him first because he will get you.

SPEAKER_03 2:29:16

I know this isn't about Batman, but it Tony reminds me of him and the attitude he has in this because like there is a comic line in Batman where Superman and Batman are riding horses as Bruce Wayne and Clark Kent. And Clark says to Batman on the horse, he says, Hey, look, you know, they don't you gotta back off the stuff you're doing because you're getting a little violent, and they're gonna send me after you if you don't stop. And Batman looks at Superman and says, I'd like to see you try. And it's like, man, and that's Tony. Look how Tony talks to Loki later, right? It's like Tony's not afraid of him, even though he really should be, you know. And it's like, but Tony's not because he's he knows what he's capable of as well. And but yeah, it's just Tony reminds me of that. He's got that little flavor, especially in this wood scene for sure.

SPEAKER_09 2:30:00

Well, it even goes back to when um I forgot Loki's exact words, but Tony's rebuttal was we have a Hulk. So yeah, like Tony knows that you Loki, you are a powerful dude. We get that, and you're causing a lot of mischief. We get that. But Tony knows in the back of his head, I got like this whole team of superheroes behind me. Yeah, it's like it's not just me, man. Yeah, so I think for me, for that aspect of it, Tony was talking that way. And I don't know if he would have talked that same way had he saw the aliens before that happened, though.

SPEAKER_03 2:30:28

I think he would. I think Tony's cocky. I not only would the cocky, but I think that's that's how he is. He's gonna go. I mean, if I don't think there's any evidence to show from beginning to end of his story in the entire Marvel universe that he would back down anybody and he'd look right at you and be like, listen here, you know. Look how he talked with Thanos.

SPEAKER_09 2:30:46

Yes, that's true.

SPEAKER_03 2:30:48

Remember when Thanos threw the planet at him, he'd come right at him, like, and then we got that epic fight with which is one of the top three best fights, even though Tony completely lost. It's just watching Iron Man go all out. It's just like, oh my goodness, it's just showing that he was no joke either, you know. Oh yeah, no, I think Tony would look his the killer, his own murderer in the eye and say, I dare you, and then die doing it. So, yeah, no, I I actually I personally that's how I feel about it. But see, Batman would too. Yeah, that's why I feel like they're very similar in that mindset, you know.

SPEAKER_09 2:31:19

Batman's hardcore when it comes to stuff like a little too much, like okay, bats. Yeah, chill out, bats. Anyways, uh, do you want to break down any more uh scenes in act one or should we just go right off to like the next spot on our review sheet?

SPEAKER_08 2:31:32

No, we'll go into the next spot. I'll give you my standout moment if you want.

SPEAKER_09 2:31:36

Uh well for what didn't work for me.

SPEAKER_03 2:31:38

Oh, you okay, let's talk about what didn't work for me. In the first act, so this is good because I struggled, so I might I might need you to lead me here.

SPEAKER_09 2:31:47

Oh boy. Don't come at me with knives, people. But definitely make a comment in the comment section below if you agree with me on this or not. And we're gonna definitely talk about the sea of maybe my mind's gonna be changed.

SPEAKER_00 2:32:00

We want some debates, guys. Yes, good, healthy debates, good.

SPEAKER_09 2:32:03

What didn't work for me, and the future films didn't even like answer this for me. Because this is a retrospective, so we're going back, so we know what's gonna happen next type thing.

SPEAKER_05 2:32:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_09 2:32:15

Um, so when you're watching this movie for the first time, you can forgive it. But then after you go through a couple phases and you're learning about how the tesseract works, you're like, wait a minute, then how did this actually happen? So, what didn't work for me was Loki didn't have control of the tesseract. We know the tesseract is the space dome where you can teleport with it. So, all that is very like they kept the continuity of the what the tesseract was and things like that. But you kind of have to have the tesseract in order to teleport, and the tesseract's on earth and Loki's not. How did that get communicated from Thanos who sent Loki down, and Thanos gave him the mindstone? So it's not like he already had the mind stone beforehand to make um Dr. Eric uh um already part of that. I know what the post-credit scene for the Thor movie, it kind of hinted that Loki was still alive and he's you saw his reflection in it, and they both said the same thing. But Loki doesn't have mind control powers, so I think that was just more of a hint of he's still here and he's gonna come back. But how he came back, that's the only part I could not figure out. And this this is how I wrote it from my my sheet here, guys. How Loki was able to transport through the Tesseract without wielding the cube. I guess if you interpret the Thor post-credit scene, um, you could say Loki was manipulating Selvik unknowingly to create the tele the teleportation portal, but how would without Loki actually meeting him, because he never did meet him in the first or movie? What would that mind control happen? Also, Loki didn't have a scepter in the first or movie. So the scepter was given to Loki in the very beginning of this movie by th um Thanos' henchman, the guy there. So that's my only little like plot hole, I guess, is how did how did the tesseract get powered up enough to open the portal to have Loki come through it? Because when Red Skull held the Tesseract, it actually got activated and he was holding it, and he alone has he he also, I should say, has super like um he took a version of the super soldier serum and all that stuff, and he got teleported away and we find out later where he went to, but he still had to hold on to it for it to do something. And ever since then, you have to hold on or put it in something to use in order for it to be useful. So I don't know how this worked. That's the only thing that maybe someone and please go in the comments below and tell me either your fan theory or a confirmation of exactly how did this work, but uh that didn't take away from the excitement I had in the first act at all. It's just that was a question that came to my brain as I'm watching this. I'm like, how did you get there in the first place?

SPEAKER_03 2:35:00

You know, I I actually I could tell you what my theory is, and maybe it'll help you. Because I think you're right. I think if for sure, if there's anything, they've there's like a beh there's like an unseen moment that we didn't see that they're just hoping we kind of forget, right? But how I take it is I don't think Loki is using mind control on the doctor at the end uh as in that um post-credit scene. Yeah. I take that as one of Loki's powers is to be suggestive to somebody that doesn't realize like that little demon on their shoulder they don't see, like it's being whispered to them. And that doctor may have unwillingly be opening a door for Loki to come through. That's the only way I feel like it makes sense. But they don't ever explain that. Well, I think I believe see, I believe that. And I if he wouldn't need the mindstone if it's just the ability of him to kind of bring that bad side out of you where he can suggest things to people. Yeah. I could see that, but they don't but they never clarify that that's something he can do, anyways, you know.

SPEAKER_09 2:36:04

So well, and even that, even if he could clarify, and that that is the interpretation of it. In the first Thor movie, Loki never sets foot on Earth, and Eric Selvid never sets first foot in Asgard. Yeah, how do they even know each other?

SPEAKER_05 2:36:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_09 2:36:18

So to me, that's like I don't know. It might be nitpicky, but um because sometimes in these movies, guys, when I'm doing my review, I'm having a hard time finding what is working and or what isn't working type thing because I just love them so much and I forgive this whole little thing because of such an epic opening. But that's the only part for me that I'm like, I wish somehow they explained it in some form of dialogue or uh uh something, or you know, even the doctor at the very end could have said he was manipulating me the whole time and I didn't even know it, type thing. It's something that could have uh just tied that together for me. It didn't take away from my excitement. I was so excited when I saw Loki, all the stuff going down, dialogue was perfect, everything was like great, even Loki leaving, acting like he's a prisoner when he's not all perfect, beautifully well done. It's just that that's what stuck out to me at the end of that scene, thinking, how did you get here again?

SPEAKER_03 2:37:14

Right, yeah. So that's just me. That's a good one. Maybe there's something we're missing. Because I I feel like I've never questioned it. Yeah, I kind of looked at it as like he, but they never really did, but you know, they really never do describe the red skull thing either.

SPEAKER_06 2:37:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:37:28

Like what's he say? Well, this is my punishment for doing blah blah blah. It's like, yeah, it doesn't really just make it sounds like an excuse. Yeah. How does he what's and what does the you know the stone that he's guarding have anything to do with the Tesseract? Like it there, there's I mean, I think there's a few times this happens in this cinematic universe that makes me think, maybe it's kind of just well, maybe it's just we're okay with it.

SPEAKER_09 2:37:50

So this is just how it's gonna be.

SPEAKER_03 2:37:51

But yeah, as long as it's not like ridiculous, right?

SPEAKER_09 2:37:53

Like it's yeah, and it didn't honestly the Loki making Loki the villain of this movie was perfect. I can't imagine what they could have done anyone else.

SPEAKER_03 2:38:02

Because I don't think there's anybody that ever saw Thor and thought Loki was dead at the end, anyways. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_09 2:38:06

No, Loki's too popular.

SPEAKER_03 2:38:07

Whenever a bad character dies like that, you're like, oh yeah, he's not gone.

SPEAKER_09 2:38:11

Yeah, well, Loki is a stuff in the comics. He's too popular to be one-off. You know, that's one of the gripes a lot of people have about these superhero movies is that the villain usually only gets one movie and then you never see him again. Loki is a great example of we're gonna keep seeing him. And I like that Marvel would be gutsy enough to not kill off their their villain at the end of some of these movies.

SPEAKER_03 2:38:33

Yeah, and it's a and it's a movie rule. Like anytime your villain in any kind of movie, folks, gets sucked into some sort of portal or hole or something, they're just not dead. There's always a you're not dead yet, you know what I mean? Like, and then so to me it's like, yeah, it's clear. So I don't think it's uh any confusion on like why he's back, but it's how he got there. It doesn't, yeah, it's a good question.

SPEAKER_09 2:38:54

That's that's my only great point.

SPEAKER_03 2:38:55

Maybe we're missing something, yeah.

SPEAKER_09 2:38:57

But um, anyways, um let's talk about something a little more upbeat on it. What was your standout moment? And this is hard, there's a lot of moments, guys.

SPEAKER_10 2:39:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:39:09

Um my moment I some of it goes, I'd see I I'm not sure if I may be thinking think talking about act two a little bit, but I do like the standout moment in this for me in act one. Oh man, I love the stuff of Tony in this. Like when they go to talk to him and they you know what I mean? Like that might have to be it. Where are you at for your standout moment?

SPEAKER_09 2:39:37

Well, mine personally, and as I'm watching this, I'm really trying to be as critical as possible because, like I said, there are a lot of standout moments, and if I have to write just one down from act one, I love the scene of Natasha recruiting Bruce going to.

SPEAKER_03 2:39:52

Oh, yeah, you know what? That is a great scene.

SPEAKER_09 2:39:54

That oh, I'm sorry. It's just uh in addition to Natasha's opening scene of the movie, which was amazing.

SPEAKER_00 2:40:02

Yeah, great scene.

SPEAKER_09 2:40:04

I tell you, this is probably I dare I say, because we we're gonna get to more retrospectives, and Natasha's gonna be brought up a couple more times. This is probably some of her best work as a character, at least continuity-wise, and well, at the time, uh timeline-wise, I liked her in Iron Man 2. Don't get me wrong, but you know what my hot take was on that one, that she wouldn't have been my first casting choice. I would forgive that moment, that that hot take in this movie. Scarlett Johansson really brought it as Black Widow in this movie, and she brought every inch of what the Black Widow is in the comics. She knows how to use herself as a weapon to get what she wants, and and she sees her objective. The whole dialogue between her and Bruce, so good, and every movement that they made, it wasn't just the dialogue, it was the performance that she really believed he was about to hulk out, and it was just it was perfect the how she reacted. I tell you, this is probably one of my favorite performances of her in the entire MCU.

SPEAKER_03 2:41:09

Yeah, yeah. No, I I agree. That I that's a great scene, yeah. This just also proves that they knew where he was the whole time. Oh, yes, and he went back to the same place, it also proves that the Incredible Hulk was never happened. And the movie just ended where it started.

SPEAKER_02 2:41:28

You know, guys, you know this uh sorry, but it's like it's like they just literally like, yeah, it didn't really mean a lot.

SPEAKER_09 2:41:35

Well, I like that this says about Shield, this whole movie, you see it two different times. You see it right there with Bruce. Um, that Shield has always had just kept their arms distance away. They've always known where you are, Bruce. Speaking of which, why does Bruce always pick the places where he's hiding to be the some of the most chaotic places?

SPEAKER_03 2:41:55

There's just nowhere nicer to chill, like can't some beach somewhere.

SPEAKER_09 2:41:59

Can't he be in the Bahamas?

SPEAKER_03 2:42:01

Yeah, just relaxing with a Mai Thai and like just chilling. For a guy who can't be angered, he's in a war-torn country, like where tragedy's happening all the time.

SPEAKER_07 2:42:12

It's like where it doesn't get to your heart's tearings like what the heck, anyways, makes no sense.

SPEAKER_03 2:42:24

Yeah, yeah. And fight it. Maybe that's why he did it. Maybe it's a challenge in himself to not, I don't think so, but who knows?

SPEAKER_09 2:42:30

But, anyways, um, well, I what I was gonna say about SHIELD is that this movie really demonstrates to everyone what SHIELD is like. Yeah, that not only have they known where Hulk is, they just let him be until they needed him and now they need him. And also that um the whole Black Widow interrogation scene is she's getting all the information and all that stuff. But when Colson makes the phone call to get Natasha out of there, he right there says to the bad guy, we got your place surrounded, you do anything, or I'm not I don't know a specific wording, but it's really good wording, real good dialogue. And it's like, you know, Shield is just on top of everything, and they know everything that your little warehouse meeting, you think no one knows what you're doing. Shield already has eyes on you, like they're they're like the next up from the CIA. Like, come on.

SPEAKER_03 2:43:22

Yeah, sometimes it's annoying. Yeah, anyways, sometimes it's annoying. It's like, come on, guys.

SPEAKER_09 2:43:28

It's like you know too much. Yeah, but what the Tony says in this movie, his secrets have secrets, which's so true. Yeah, so true. Anyway, so yeah, that's my standout moment of act one is Natasha recruiting Bruce. Just so good, just so good. Yeah. Uh did you have any other stand-up moments? Or is it no?

SPEAKER_03 2:43:50

That was it. That was I mean, I mean, obviously, there's so many stand-up moments, but like, yeah, no, I think you nailed it. Like, I did like the just the interaction of when we first meet Tony in this, but um no, it Mark's introduction was done very well, you know, and it was entertaining. That could have easily been another bullying part of the movie, and it wasn't. Yeah, they didn't draw it out and internally anything it shouldn't be. It actually looked really good. So no, I think that's good. Yeah, I think that I think that's how that's that hit real well.

SPEAKER_09 2:44:19

Yeah, totally. Well, um, all right. So, what is your score on act one?

SPEAKER_03 2:44:23

I'm gonna I you know what, guys, is it I'm gonna give it a 10 out of 10. This act one got me involved. Like, I'm like, yep, this is why I love this movie.

SPEAKER_09 2:44:32

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 2:44:32

So I'll give it a 10 out of 10.

SPEAKER_09 2:44:34

Did you say this is your first?

SPEAKER_03 2:44:35

That's my first 10 out of 10 in many things, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_09 2:44:39

They want to do it too loud for the microphones. Good job.

SPEAKER_03 2:44:43

Yeah, it's not often. It might be the only guys, so no, I'm kidding.

SPEAKER_09 2:44:48

Well, I give it an 8 out of 10 myself.

SPEAKER_03 2:44:50

Wow, you have tempered yourself a little.

SPEAKER_09 2:44:53

I did. Well, uh, you know what? When I'm trying to be a little more nitpicky and I'm like, this is the Avengers, for goodness sakes. The the until if someone can correct me on that whole how Loki got there. Gotcha. Yep. If you can do that, I will consider going up a couple more points. But it until that happens, I'm being steadfast in my eight out of ten for the opening act.

SPEAKER_03 2:45:16

I like it. Not bad.

SPEAKER_09 2:45:17

All right, why don't you read the or did you already read the first?

SPEAKER_03 2:45:21

Yeah, I did the first one. If you want to do the second one, I'll read the second one then.

SPEAKER_09 2:45:24

I'll read the one.

SPEAKER_03 2:45:24

This one, folks. Hold on.

SPEAKER_09 2:45:26

Ladies and gentlemen, this is act two of the Avengers. Divided We Fall. Loki is captured aboard Shield's Helicarrier, but his plan unfolds as internal sabotage causes chaos. Hawkeye is mind-controlled and attacks a team, leading to destruction abroad the helicarrier, aboard the helicarian, I should say, and the apparent death of Agent Colson. The team blames Loki, but also each other, breaking apart emotionally and ideologically. This loss becomes the catalyst that forces the heroes to finally unite, especially after Fury reveals Colson's death was meant to inspire them to become a true team.

SPEAKER_06 2:46:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_10 2:46:08

That this whole scene is some of the best work Marvel has ever done.

SPEAKER_00 2:46:16

It's up there.

SPEAKER_09 2:46:18

At least for me for assembling this team, some of my favorite moments of this film is in this scene.

SPEAKER_03 2:46:25

Yes, this is a big scene. This is a big section. Yeah. Yeah, I agree with you. I agree.

SPEAKER_09 2:46:30

Oh gosh. I I'll jump right in on what worked for me to go back and forth. Do it. Um the Avengers meeting each other for the first time, and their clash of personalities were really great to see. Each one was judgmental and arrogant towards each other. Um, then letting tensions get so high uh through the influence of the scepter was really cool to see that. But even without the scepter guys, they already, their personalities, they were clashing already. Yeah, especially when you realize that the next Avengers films that Scepter is an infinity stone. Yeah, that's that's so cool. Just to see how all that's I love that part though is kind of like, oh, we have plans for even this thing, you know. Um I loved I loved them meeting like this. Like we already saw in act one of them forming the team and then stopping Loki and capturing him, and what happens when Thor gets in the mix and all that stuff. Now we get them all on the helicarian, which by the way, that helicarries is a super cool scene that it looks like a like a navy ship, and then um Bruce, or I'm sorry, Natasha says you guys better hold on to something, and Bruce thinks it's gonna go underwater. He's like, You want someone like me to go underwater? And she's like, Oh no, and then it flies. Like, guys, that was so cool. Oh my gosh, nerding out when that happened. Like, this is epic. So it was just that was just so cool. I want a ship like that in real life, right? Isn't that available yet? Come on, but anyways, guys, that's it. What worked for me most of all of this whole thing was you see every single one of their personalities, you see that they're not trusting of Shield, but each one of them in different ways. Whereas, like for Steve Rogers, he came from an era where you did trust the government because they really were the good guys, and now that he stepped forward into the future, he realizes yeah, government can be good, but also it's good with a lot of deception involved in it. So you see in this scene him realizing, hey, the thing that brought me back that's asking for my help, it's also the same thing that's probably doing something nefarious with with the Tesserax, and then Black Widow's whole interrogation scene with though with Loki, great display of um uh Natasha holding back and Scarlett Johansson really holding in that character to play it well, where you and she makes you believe that she actually is touched by what Loki said. Then she's like, Oh, wait a minute. So that's what Draga angle is, and be like, it's so cool how she s like switched her emotions like that. Like, that is exactly how the Black Widow acts in the comics. Exactly what a super spy, super assassin, like she is, would do. And it's just it's perfect how they wrote her. Um Thor just learning everything, and then I love the part where they're making references, and some of them don't get it, but for different reasons. Yeah, like Thor doesn't get it because he's from out of world. He's he's like, um, he says something to Coulson about Colson says herding cattle and or something to that degree, and Thor's like, it's like this. Well, you don't have those here, something like that and be like, Oh, that's it's just so cool to see that. And then Captain America's saying, I get that reference. When Nick Fury was like, We don't want a bunch of flying monkeys around or something with flying monkeys, he's like, I get that one. I actually get that one. That's really cool, you know. That just seeing that, and then you get that iconic um meme. And I think I think this is one of the first memes in history. Sorry, but uh the microphone, I hit it. Hopefully, you can still hear me. Um, this is one of the first memes, I think, in history, of Tony Stark doing doing the eye roll. That's right. Yeah, it is all right. The internet started becoming plays, and Facebook started becoming bigger for things I forgot that was so early on. That was one I remember as a kid seeing all the time, and then we see it in the movie, and you're like, Oh my gosh, you became a meme. That's how cool you are. Like, oh, this this is I I thoroughly enjoyed this whole act, every bit of it. Uh, even Nick Fury just passively um saying, This is none of your business. Like, the only way that Samuel L.

SPEAKER_07 2:50:46

Jackson can say, like, what Shield does is none of your concern right now, and be like, Well, it is now. So this is it was so cool, anyways, guys.

SPEAKER_09 2:50:55

And then Bruce. I I gotta tell you, um we're gonna get to when we do a deep dive in each character. I'll tell you my true feelings about Mark Ruffalo playing Bruce, but the dialogue for him in this scene, so good, so believable. I was eating every bit of it up. So you've heard everything that I've said about what worked in this in this act. What worked for you?

SPEAKER_03 2:51:19

Well, I I will have to say, I'll mirror everything you just said. I think all that's correct. I and in general, in my opinion, it's the fact that they really got the nuance of each character playing against each other and with each other, whether it's just how they go back and forth and how they talk to each other. It it works so well. It really does. I mean, God, Sammy, you broke that down pretty good. But like in mom, I I love I love that Tony. Oh, I don't I don't blame you. I'm I'm about to in a second, too. I love how Tony, for some reason, is fascinated with the Hulk. And he like pokes at him, like he's almost like wanting, like he's poking at literally poking at him. Like just the way he acts. He's kind of like so, how about you being us all big and green and stuff? You know, just like how he gets in there, you know, and I don't know, I don't know what it is about Robert, however, he does this, where that curiosity while he's thinking or doing their thing, you just seeing his it's like that playful nature he has comes through, and he just he's just so interested in him. And and it's kind of neat that their friendship buds from that, to be honest. And one thing that really worked well, and I'm glad they did this in this movie, is they could have really drawn out this whole what Shield's really up to thing, and it'd be something to do with like in the long run, you find out towards the end, but no, they just were like they got it right out and done with that you know Tony Stark wasn't messing around. He's like, I'm gonna figure out what the hell they're up to, and he did, and it just outs them right there, and and it turns into this whole chaotic moment of like who do we trust? What blah blah blah. Look, you're even in the back, blah blah blah blah, all that stuff, you know. And I love that just let's get to that because we don't need that to come up later again, you know? Yeah, the shadiness of who SHIELD is and what they're doing was good enough, and Tony got right to it, exposed it. This wasn't a through line of the movie that could have slowed and bogged this movie down. It wasn't. It we didn't even have to actually by the end of the movie, you don't even think about it again. You almost forget about it until you know, obviously, oh wait, yeah, that's right. Shield's Shield's still kind of a liar, you know what I mean? So, you know, and how that all works. And and I love the scene of them losing their control and arguing with each other. What a great scene that is, just in general, you know, and and I'm talking about there are some shots in this segment too of this whole whole situation that I would love to just kind of bring up. Like that shot of Natasha running down through the aisle in slow motion and a Hulk coming behind her. Oh good, it looks so good. And you know what? They did a great job in this and making the Hulk scary.

SPEAKER_06 2:53:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:53:51

Like when he turns, and it's it's just like, oh wow, this is freaky. Like, this is the noises he's making, the stuff that he's doing. I it's I just I can't say enough about that. And I mean, we're gonna talk a few times that the scene's on right now. I absolutely love this is Loki. I mean, holy scary. What a mean guy, what a nasty cuss. Yes, you know, and even though she's kind of leading him on, he's not lying about who he is and what he's talking about right now. Oh no. And she sees that too. You know, she might be leading him on just to get whatever answers or what she's trying to get with playing from him, but ultimately she understands, whoo, this guy is next level scary right there. And she's just keeping herself composed because he's wild. Like he is that right there, Sam, is I it's it's one of the it's up, it's up there. It's one of the best scenes.

SPEAKER_09 2:54:46

I love it when when she realizes what he's trying to do and she says it, and as she's walking away, she's telling someone on her ear and all that, and she looks at him, she says, Thank you for your cooperation. And he's giving her this puzzled look, like, huh? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:55:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:55:02

You underestimate it.

SPEAKER_03 2:55:03

They actually do really well at these little character moments that I think mean a lot. Like later when he captures Thor in there, and then he's like, he goes to like and Thor takes the hammer and smashes the window part and it cracks a little. Even Loki's face is like, Oh, like, oh, you almost got out. Because he's worried about his brother, his brother could kick his ass. You know what I mean? So he's like, he's like, whoo, even Loki was like worried that his brother was gonna break out at that second, you know. Like, there's just those little moments I like when they do those. And I love Cap in this whole thing, man. He is just he doesn't know where the hell he is. Like, he's he's kind of doing his best to be part of like this futuristic. I mean, you gotta met put yourself in Cap's shoes, guys. Like, he just woke up from a 70 year nap and he's like, this is wild. I love when Tony when he's he's like, he's like, So what's it? How's it looking? And he says, It seems to be running on some type of electricity. Like, I mean, it's like the poor guy, like, he doesn't know what this stuff is, you know, and all and it's yeah, you notice when the guy. Throws the grenade, Cap jumps across and deflects her grenade. I love that. Cap is such a badass in this.

SPEAKER_02 2:56:07

Oh, it's yes, it he's so good.

SPEAKER_03 2:56:09

Oh, yeah. He puts himself right on right on the line every single time.

SPEAKER_09 2:56:13

Well, Hulk turning in or Bruce turning into the Hulk in this scene. So like you like you said, that that definitely is a huge standout moment of this whole scene.

SPEAKER_03 2:56:22

It is so good. And I like when Loki smiles when he hears the Hulk. Like he's because it's like it is like he's like, that's what I wanted. Yeah, that's what I wanted. And that that I just those little moments, I mean, there's so many. Like it, it's it's very well put together. Oh, yeah. This whole spot is like, and then the action of what comes when Barton shows up and starts wrecking house.

SPEAKER_06 2:56:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:56:46

And then the fight between him and Black Widow is great. Yes. Because she's doing her best not to hurt him and he's trying to kill her, you know. Uh, and then that I mean, then their little thing together, like bringing and bringing him out of this thing was it actually worked for me.

SPEAKER_09 2:57:00

Yeah, like I know it did. It worked for it because I loved how they're fighting, and you can see like a light bulb went off in her head as they're fighting it. She's like, I'm just gonna smash your head and recalibrate your brain. That's right. And it did it. Yeah, it I was shocked. I'm like, hey, but it worked for me. It didn't, it didn't make me think that's not right. No, it just it works. And honestly, it was really smart tactical thinking.

SPEAKER_03 2:57:22

Yeah. And we haven't even touched on Thor and the Hulk having a showdown.

SPEAKER_09 2:57:27

Yeah, no, we haven't.

SPEAKER_03 2:57:28

Oh my gosh. I love this.

SPEAKER_09 2:57:31

Before we get to that, well, the the recalibrating the brain. Yeah, it is a shame that when you get to the solo Black Widow movie, that is not mentioned because they're using this red dust to control them. Anyways, that's another movie. But kind of, if if you were someone who would look back at Marvel Lore and everything that Tasha had been through, I would have said that's a great tool to use as part of she knew how to get herself out of a situation because of it. Anyways, I'm with you. Anyways, let's call it Thor versus Hulk.

SPEAKER_03 2:58:04

Well, they don't think about that stuff, but anyways, they don't. I do, I love this because it's like the Hulk is almost like, I got you, and Thor just kind of gives him a sucker punch. And and it's just neat seeing how that works. And Thor loves loves it. He's all like, let's do this, big boy. Yes, and and all my funny, the funniest, some of the best stuff they've done with mew, mew, mew, mew, mew, mew, mew, mew, some of the best stuff they do with the hammer is whenever you use it practically, like when he sets it on Loki and but like I love when he throws it and the Hulk catches it, but he like it brings it with him. Like, it's it's they don't defy anything they've already put in place, right? And I think that that's awesome when they do that. And of course, when the Hulk turns on the jets and all that, it's it's funny. Oh, it's terrifying, but it's also kind of like the the guy jacks and he catches it. He's almost like a child playing with toys. Oh my gosh. You know, it's like what a terrifying thing.

SPEAKER_09 2:58:55

Like, oh, the smokes are so cool.

SPEAKER_03 2:58:57

This is for the first Avengers movie, this is where the action should be. It's fun, intense in moments, but yet still kind of playful. Yes, like it doesn't need to be all scary and doom like Infinity War was, you know. We needed this playfulness with it. We needed Josh Sweden's touch for this movie, and arguably maybe for the second Avengers, but we'll get there. But yeah, I mean the second one could have used a little more of the series, but this for him though was perfect because in in this segment in the middle shows how perfect it is. Like in just in all those little moments, how it works. You know, I I I can't yeah, I can't say enough about the action just kept you going with Iron Man inside the helicopter, inside the spinning, you know, it just is all awesome, you know. Like I I enjoyed this immensely. Yeah, like I got a couple things that didn't work that were just kind of fun. Um, I wouldn't say they didn't work because they were bad, but I do have to say, what's their plan with this Hulk thing? They have Thor in. They kept they got Milky stuck in there, they got Thor stuck in there. This proves that you need to kill the abomination. And I'm gonna keep you guys waiting until you you will be sick and tired of how many times I'm gonna say it. They should have because they had no idea what to do. If this was their way of isolating the Hulk with some giant round, almost, almost unbreakable glass cylinder. What the heck are you talking about, man? Like this dude doesn't die from nothing. Like he's you just all she'd have done was drop him to the earth.

SPEAKER_09 3:00:34

Yeah, yes, and it just well, it just proves that they don't know what to do. How they capture the Hulk. If that was their grand design for this, Thor can make a crack with one swing of his hammer. Yeah, it's a powerful swing. I'd give you that.

SPEAKER_03 3:00:47

So what the hell they do with the abomination all those years? Put him in handcuffs? You kill them, guys. Anyway. That that that to me was like a weird that was a weird thing. It made for good scenes and it didn't ruin anything in the movie, but definitely kind of made me think it kind of would have been more fun to be like, okay, we don't go after Bruce Banner because we don't know what to do if he freaks out. I would have like him like them, because they had this really weird plan to just drop him to the earth real quick. That ain't gonna do nothing, man. It's gonna make him yeah, it's not gonna do anything. Then on top of that, another part of it that it's not that it didn't work, but I kind of noticed this happen, and I kind of want to point it out. When they're all kind of losing their crap, and like you got then you have Mark Ruffalo, he grabs the scepter, and then you're almost like, oh my god, like he's angry. And you got you have freaking Nick Fury in a corner. Did you notice him? He like he had his hand on his gun, and I'm just like, What are you gonna do? Like, what are you gonna do? Like, nowhere in your notes does it say bullets do nothing. Like, it's like I just love that there's certain moments where it's like really guy.

SPEAKER_09 3:01:53

I wouldn't say that was something that you know really didn't work, but no, but you are correct when they referred to when Nick Fury is talking to Loki in the beginning of the scene, and he's referring to um this container was meant to withhold something much stronger than you, and um that he explains to him what will happen if you tamper with something, you try to escape, and it's gonna go down all that. And I'm thinking, This is for the Hulk? Yeah, is that is because it they make it very sound like this is for the Hulk type thing, and it's like it just they don't know how to capture the Hulk. They just don't know. Just say you don't know. All this info on the Hulk, and even him still goes for his gun military, and they know what actually could stop him, technically, a little bit to a degree, even that didn't stop him in the incredible Hulk, but yet they still don't know what to do. Yeah, yeah, which if yeah, I completely I agree with you on that, but for me, that didn't like ruin the scene. It just was a it was a fun little like it's just silly, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:02:57

It's silly, it's a silly thing.

SPEAKER_09 3:02:59

It's it's a silly thing, it's a silly thing, it's just yeah, I think it did make me kind of go, yeah, it's a little weird.

SPEAKER_03 3:03:05

But it's that and I gotta tell you, these shield people for being elite and who they are, they can't shoot worth a shit. Cap should have been dead like five times. They got these automatic weapons. I get it, we're in a Marvel movie, but oh my god, these guys are like they just it's like yeah, it's like they put blindfolds on in their helmets and just started shooting their guns. It's awful, but it's okay, it's it's an action.

SPEAKER_09 3:03:25

Well, speaking of weapons, what I thought that was interesting, and I never caught this until like I'm re-watching these movies now. And Captain America, he goes on his own little secret um mission to find out what Shield is doing. Yeah I completely forgot he even broke into a room and all that, and he finds the hydro weapons for two. Oh, yeah, that was when I saw the symbol, he was not happy, and I'm like, Oh my gosh. I I don't know why that never clicked to me.

SPEAKER_03 3:03:54

Well, that sets up though, you know, the rest of his storyline as we go into his other movies.

SPEAKER_09 3:03:58

I also find it funny that the whole time Tony is hacking the shield shield stuff, and as soon as Tony says, Oh, so I see you're developing weapons, and Captain America walks in with a weapon, he's like, I didn't need to hack this to find it. It was just it was just perfect how one tackled it one way, one another, and it it they got the same thing, and ironically, Steve a little bit faster.

SPEAKER_03 3:04:20

Yeah, but anyways, um what also didn't work for me is Colson's death. So I don't it's not the death itself. Yeah, I think that was that was good. Colson was a badass. I actually like what he said to Loki. Um I'm trying to remember the exact words when Loki said some asked him, like, what makes you think you would you could win? Or what what what do you have that I don't, right? And he tell he tells him you do you lack conviction. And it's like I I like I that all works for me. What I don't buy is them all caring enough to be the reason for the Avengers to be like, we need to muster together for him. I just don't see it. I don't feel like that. I don't not that he wasn't a good guy, not that we didn't like seeing him and he's a familiar face, but that's all he is. That's all he's really ever been is just that familiar face that ties them together. Now, this is always the obviously this is before we get the TV show and there's more to him, right? But even then, that's we're not even gonna talk about that because it's ridiculous that they did that. They should have never done that show. I know it's probably there's probably lovers of it out there, but I I was not interested. But either way, him being the catalyst of them seeing or having this realization of avenging, I guess, you know. I don't know. I just I don't know. I think we could have come up with something better. I think we could have come up with something that really made us go, yeah, that's it. Or it's a death that was a little more potent, or maybe not just him dying, but just I don't know. I wish they failed at something else that caused something bigger that made it more of a realization. Because it's just Colson. Like how well do some of these people know him? I mean, the hope just met him.

SPEAKER_09 3:06:16

Yeah, so that that's a that's a good point. What I would say of it, I I think if I had to look at like a list of these guys and who actually cared and who didn't, I I wouldn't say Tony cared cared, although he has had a lot of interactions with Colson from the state. Probably the most out of all of them, right? Yeah, actually, I I would say that. So I think I think there's a level that he did care. Steve, you can see it on his face, he cared because they had one-on-one interactions in this movie together, and he's talking about how much he admired him, how he collected all his cars, yeah. Oh, Nick used that against them.

SPEAKER_03 3:06:51

Yeah, see, that might be the part of it I don't like. It's almost like I that felt so forced. We we didn't know that until that scene, though. Now, if we'd have known that before, that'd be different. Like I would have liked to see more of Steve and Colson having conversations then. It's weird. I know guys that sound like I'll bogged the movie down, and it probably would have, truthfully. But it's like for him to just, you know, hey, you know how much he liked you? He had him in his pocket. You know, the stupid thing is he didn't have him in his pocket. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_09 3:07:22

It's like yeah, he had him in his locker, which it just talks about Nick Fury.

SPEAKER_03 3:07:25

Yeah, well, Nick Fury, what a anyway, what a guy, that Nick Fury. Anyways, but like it's like, but to use that though, like that, to me, it was kind of like I don't know, it just didn't felt it did not feel earned. I'm not complaining that it happened. I think them just having to come together in general is fine. I just wish it wasn't that wasn't what made this movie made us wanted to feel like that was that catalyst though, of this was that stepping stone of all this bad stuff happened, everything went wrong here in the helicaria, which it did, it all went to hell and Loki got what he wanted for sure in the long run. But what really made them think was Colson died, and it's like uh meh. I mean, I don't know. I don't know. I just didn't feel it, you know. But who else at the same time? I couldn't give you an alternative, so I don't know. Yeah, that's the problem I'm having here.

SPEAKER_09 3:08:22

That because I think Colson, he's other than the first Thor movie, he's such a likable guy. He is, and we talked about that, how that was your punchable face uh for the first thorough movie.

SPEAKER_03 3:08:33

It's just how he was acting, yeah. He just needed a good old sucker punch.

SPEAKER_09 3:08:35

To be honest, he was just he was just doing his job, but at the same time, he was being a little dick about it. But anyways, um couldn't just give her a notebook, anyways. Um They could have brought him with them. I mean, you just listen to him because the guy you're looking for is right there with anyways.

SPEAKER_08 3:08:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_09 3:08:49

Anyways, but I get it. I feel like they did need someone in they needed to find a way to make all these different personalities really get on the same page, and Nick Fury used that to his advantage to say, look, this guy that's helped recruit a lot of you guys. Uh Natasha knew him intimately, and of course Nick did.

SPEAKER_03 3:09:12

Um, and uh he's probably the second in command, really. He comes off as that, right? He comes off to go to guy as his top agent. Yeah, his top agent, yeah.

SPEAKER_09 3:09:22

Maybe next to the black widow that was like if you want an espionage person to go in and do stuff, Black Widow is your person. If you want someone that's kind of like the guy behind the chair to um strategically putting things in place, that'd be cold.

SPEAKER_03 3:09:35

Because Colby's kind of like the Colby Smolders or what's her name? Maria She's kind of his second in command.

SPEAKER_09 3:09:41

Yeah, and in the comics, she is his second in command. There are times where Black Widow is introduced as a second in command, but uh let's face it, in the comics, when Nick Furio is no longer director of Shield, Maria Hill becomes a director.

SPEAKER_03 3:09:53

Which is funny because they treat his dad like it's such a big deal, but they treat hers like it's nothing.

SPEAKER_09 3:09:58

Anyway, yeah, you know, that bothers me a lot. When we get to that show, yeah, I don't know if our Hulk episode is gonna stand a chance against the garbage we're gonna throw at that garbage, you know what I mean.

SPEAKER_08 3:10:10

Anyways, who guys?

SPEAKER_03 3:10:12

But it I I guess for me, I mean, maybe I'm talking myself into a circle because I don't I don't want to feel this way about it. It's just when I watch it, that does feel very light on its toes in writing for me. And that's where I'm kind of like, okay, it's maybe for us, this is a face of Shield that we know. Uh I'm trying to talk myself out of this not working, guys, as I'm talking with you about it. So I don't want to take this as like this is what was a week, like I'm being weak about what I'm saying. But it just, I gotta be honest with you. The the three times I watched this movie this week, all three times I was kind of like, man, I still just don't really feel like that moment was earned. Now his death and what happened is earned, but this their realization of having to come together, I don't know. It just I just felt like it wasn't enough for me. I don't know. Maybe that could be that could be of seeing it three different times too. I got a little saturated in it, you know. And I so I don't know.

SPEAKER_09 3:11:07

I get what you're saying. It's just that also what you said is that we can't think of an alternative that would have made it better. Yeah, I can't. Like it's almost like, is that that's not maybe it could have been something different than that? That's the only one part that maybe didn't work enough. But at the same time, there's no good alternative without having to. That's one of the beauties of this movie is that besides Kobe Smalders um showing up as Maria Hill, there's no new characters in this movie, which play to the whole movie's advantage because you don't have you don't have to go through an origin of anybody.

SPEAKER_03 3:11:42

So you know, but and and to my point that I'm trying to make is ultimately they were gonna do this anyways. Like, even if he hadn't died, I mean, you got you're still Black Widow and Hawkeye were gonna be going to New York to save everybody. Thor's gonna go because it's his brother, he's gonna want to figure this whole thing out. Yeah, you know, it's like the only three you had to really get on board was gonna be Captain America, Tony Stark, and the Hulk. And Captain was gonna be talked into it because he knows he's gonna have to, he's not gonna sit by and watch New York City get destroyed. You know? Yeah so the only two that maybe would have never shown up would have been Tony and Bruce Banner. Which is Bruce Banner of all but she kind of shows up out of nowhere, too.

SPEAKER_09 3:12:26

She shows up out of nowhere, and that that's probably one of the only things when we get to act three and part two, guys, we'll talk about that. But uh he's the only he's the only one that I could actually say, just like he says in the Age of Ultron, I could set this one out. Because honestly, the Hulk being unleashed in New York City again, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 3:12:46

Maybe he could set this one out. And we all know he's probably like Colson who? Because out of all of them, he probably has no idea who he is. Oh, yeah, exactly. Yeah, so it's like he's just there because I just made new friends.

SPEAKER_09 3:12:57

He's just meeting SHIELD for the first time himself, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 3:13:00

She's there because he made new friends, you know?

SPEAKER_09 3:13:02

It's like, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 3:13:04

So I don't know. Yeah, this was really gonna kind of happen anyway. We didn't even need Colson to die. So part of me is kind of like instead of finding a replacement for that catalyst, why can't we just have that moment of we lost? You know, and still kill Colson, you know, like only because it it does it makes the urgency and raises the stakes that nobody that somebody can die.

SPEAKER_09 3:13:25

To be honest, the it does it go, it harkens back to their title, The Avengers. They avenge the death of Colson.

SPEAKER_03 3:13:34

So is that what we want to think of as the first Avengers movie is them avenging Colson's death?

SPEAKER_09 3:13:39

I mean, look up the word avenger and I know what it means. So I I par me is like someone had to die then, because you you're not the what is it that Tony says in Endgame? We're not the um the prevengers, we're the Avengers. We have to wait till something happens in order to do something about it. So I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 3:13:59

Anyways, well, it's just I mean, it just seems like you know, yeah, someone at the writer's room sat down and said, So what they what's the Avengers gonna avenge? Coulson. Yeah. Do we really feel like not one person said, Yeah, maybe we should do something a little more drastic, like something a little bigger? Not saying it doesn't work, it kind of does. Yeah, I it just for me, I'm just kind of like, that's a little weak, guys. You didn't need to do, which means you didn't need to do that whole scene of Nick Fury with the cards and being all what's all this dirty behind everybody's back crap you're doing, Nick. You know, it's like we didn't need to see that. We didn't, I just this is a level of it we didn't really need, I guess.

SPEAKER_09 3:14:39

It is a good character scene for Nick Fury on who he who he really Yeah, it's a jerk, especially when Maria Hill says Nick, they weren't in his pocket, they were in his locker, and he's like Which means he took his blood and smeared it on those cards. That whole what a his best friend that you see in the Captain Marvel movie, he's been with him since the beginning.

SPEAKER_03 3:14:59

Just to give him a push.

SPEAKER_07 3:15:00

Yeah, yeah. They needed a little push.

SPEAKER_02 3:15:02

Be like, that's a heck of a push.

SPEAKER_03 3:15:04

Like, did they just tell him New York City's gonna get destroyed? Isn't that a good enough push? It's like, by the way, if you guys don't do something, millions of people are gonna die.

SPEAKER_08 3:15:13

That I think that's the push.

SPEAKER_03 3:15:15

We didn't need to even talk about oh, poor Colson. Yeah, but what about New York?

SPEAKER_09 3:15:18

Like we didn't need to smear his blood and America cards and throw them at Steve.

SPEAKER_03 3:15:24

Yeah, like it's which oh man just remind Steve that he's from New York and they're they're gonna go fight, you know, and Tony's gonna show up because Tony's not gonna walk away from this. They're just pissed off right now. We didn't need to make it about Colson. Like, I don't know. That's all I'm saying. Don't get me wrong, because the scene's great when he dies, it's a great scene. Like, it's not uh I won't take that away from it's just to me, it's like if it never happened, does this movie change? No, because they're still going to New York, they're still gonna do what they're gonna do.

SPEAKER_09 3:15:51

I put that scene of what Nick Fury did as my favorite character moment from act two.

SPEAKER_03 3:16:01

It's awful, Sammy.

SPEAKER_09 3:16:04

My specific words when I'm writing my form out was Nick Fury, him bringing these people together and staying true to himself, secrets having secrets, then giving an inspirational yet also very manipulative speech about what the Avengers initiative can be, thus making them the team team together and set aside the differences for one goal. Kudos to the writing for that.

SPEAKER_03 3:16:24

And I just got done saying how all that is not valid. See what happens, guys. Oh, my favorite character moment is Loki in the thing with Black Widow.

SPEAKER_09 3:16:36

That's a great moment.

SPEAKER_03 3:16:37

It's there's other ones I had to juggle, I had to keep going back. It was between that or Black Widow and Clinton's conversation when he comes back to like when he's when he wakes up. But that scene with Loki, I can't my standout scene right there. Yep, there it is. So, hey guys, don't forget, no matter what happens, we need to avenge Colson.

unknown 3:16:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 3:16:58

Sorry, guys, I'm not buying it. Throws him bloody, yeah. He didn't mess around. He went back to the body. He's like, let's get his mirrored. I want to make sure when Kat sees it, he can't even see his face on the thing.

SPEAKER_07 3:17:16

That's the deleted scene, guys.

SPEAKER_03 3:17:17

Yeah. Look, I get the somberness of everybody, but isn't the threat of New York City being dis destroyed way bigger than Colson? Like, I don't know. I just I hope you all understand where I'm coming from. Without I I like Colson. I just I'm just like, who cares? It's not Colson.

SPEAKER_09 3:17:35

I guess this this scene kind of was it it forced them to talk to each other and see if they could find common ground. And that's when they get the idea of where would Loki be going with this, and they're like, Oh, he wants to see his name in the sky. Oh, just like my Stark Tower.

SPEAKER_03 3:17:52

So they I guess they still go into New York without him dying. That's I will I will say this. If it never happened, it would all All went to the same place. I'm with you. I'm I understand you're doing very good at the You're doing very good. It's okay. You're doing very good, but there's I'm not convinced. Well, one thing that Sure got them talking, but millions of people in New York dying doesn't get them talking. Come on. Like they're not gonna figure it out when the portal opens. Like even if they can't figure it out now, it's gonna be obvious when it goes to happen. Like, no, there's no way.

SPEAKER_09 3:18:23

Well, one thing I glossed over is did the pacing hold up for you in this act though?

SPEAKER_00 3:18:27

It did. It it really did. Yep, it really did. I think so.

SPEAKER_09 3:18:31

Yeah, I wrote down yes, it kept my interest, really moved the film along quite well. Not just action-packed, but very story-driven.

SPEAKER_03 3:18:38

Yep, yep, yep.

SPEAKER_09 3:18:39

Yep. And as you could tell, I really geeked out when I talked about what really worked for me. So, what is your score for act two?

SPEAKER_03 3:18:45

My score for act two. I gave it, believe it or not, I gave it an eight out of ten. Right. I gave it a ten out of ten. I understand. Isn't that funny how we like the first part better than the don't get me wrong? This is all great stuff. But that Colson thing really don't work for me. I really wish it did. It just don't.

SPEAKER_09 3:19:06

And I'll give you that. I think that's cool. Yeah. Well, I think that's that's being honest. No, I hear you. I hear you. To reach his own. Yeah, yeah. So um, well, guys, uh, if you're just watching this as a clip on YouTube, we are gonna be stopping this part right now. And I know we're just about to talk about act three and the big circle moment of them coming together and the character deep dives we're gonna do, and who had the best lines and all that stuff. But so if you're watching this on YouTube, sorry, you're gonna have to find part two right now. Hey guys, thank you for staying with us with the Goodell Multiverse. We are into part two. If you're listening to us on the audio version, you just got part one segued right into part two. But if this is your first time checking us out on YouTube and you're watching this as just a segment, we do have part one on our YouTube page. So please go and check it out because we're just gonna get the ball right back rolling um down this hill that we got for Avengers one. We already broke down act one and act two. Now let's get to act three. Ike, why don't you take us off on what the heck happened?

SPEAKER_03 3:20:19

All right, guys, here we go. Act three, Avengers. Loki opens up a portal over New York City using the Tesseract, allowing a full-scale alien invasion by the Chitari army. Did I say that correct, Chitari? You did. Hey, sometimes I have trouble with some of these names, but I remember that one. The Avengers finally come together because of Coulson as a unified team for the first time. Iron Man carries a nuclear missile through the portal. Thor confronts Loki, Hawk smashes the alien forces, and Captain America coordinates the defense on the ground. In the end, Loki is defeated and the invasion is stopped. The team officially forms as Earth's defenders, the Avengers.

SPEAKER_06 3:21:04

Okay.

SPEAKER_10 3:21:05

So did the ending land for you? Yes. It did. Um there's a lot to digest in this act, guys.

SPEAKER_09 3:21:23

It's like the whenever anyone thinks of the Avengers, this is the includes the iconic scene that everyone always talks about. The battle of New York, big deal.

SPEAKER_03 3:21:35

Yeah, what it did correct for me wa for landing is it felt urgent. This needed there's a an obvious force coming through. Um this isn't good, things are bad, you know. Um, I'll be honest with you, the including the hint and Tony Stark flying the missile through the portal, added that extra it needed. And I wonder if there's earlier versions of this script that didn't have that happening. Cause it did feel a little chewhorned in this nuclear bomb idea. And I think that's a swing that could have not worked, but it kind of did real well for this, you know. Um, and I think it was just that moment of heaven for Tony doing what he's doing. Because I'll be honest with you, I've I forget that this is 2012 when this movie comes out. So it at this time it's not such an issue, but after this movie, I kind of remember a lot of superhero movies or comic book movies where eventually the bad guy scheme or whatever's going on ends up being some big beam in the sky. It's always like seems to be a theme in these movies. But this was this wasn't that wasn't a complaint until after this. Because I mean a ton of movies after this where they just did that all the time. A big beam in the sky. I don't know. Hey, where's all the action? Look at the beam in the sky. You know what I mean? Like it just seems like there's always some whatever the thing that the guy's doing that's bad involves a beam in the sky, and always over in New York City or Los Angeles. I mean, what happened to Miami is like the safest place in the world when it comes down to these things because you never even have disaster movie, name a disaster movie, folks, where Miami gets destroyed. Yeah, good luck. So it's like it's I mean, I'm moving to Miami or Chicago, you know what I mean? It's like nothing happens in Chicago other than Candyman. But anyway, I just won't look in a mirror. But it's it's uh I don't know, it's interesting. This I I like the ending. I I thought maybe I wasn't, because the the when it gets this big, all of a sudden Alien Invasion kind of feels like it's clunky and stuff. Nothing about this felt clunky. There's a few cringy moments that maybe were funny then, but they're not as funny now, you know. But it's nothing I'm ever that's actually I put none of that into my score though, because it's it's still a comic book movie. Yeah. And this is where Josh Sweeten, though, can either really ruin a project or make a project work. This time it worked. And I wouldn't say next time it does, but this time it did. I mean, because it definitely didn't work for that crappy Justice League movie that he ended up help helping finish. That were what a piece of garbage that was. But anyways, yeah. Well, let's let's we'll you know we will get to that when we do our um Justice League retrospective. Maybe we'll skip that. No, we can't, but if I want to, anyway.

SPEAKER_09 3:24:32

Um I think that movie we do need to do retrospective on just to say what do you not do in an ensemble film? But anyways, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 3:24:41

How do you mess it up when it's already there?

SPEAKER_09 3:24:46

Anyways. He didn't do that here. No, so this this worked. This worked well. Actually, it's because of how much this movie worked in particular that made the people at Warner Brothers say we want him honored Justice League. It just turned out that was your phone.

SPEAKER_03 3:25:00

Yeah, because and and with the ending landing for me, it's uh the that means the climax was earned. I'll kinda I'll kind of skip down to that real quick just to give it a quick yes. Because yeah, the climax was earned because it was it was just right. Like it was uh they did a real good job at this. I think maybe if there's one thing I could say they could have done differently, is there could have been a little more fighting with Loki himself, but we got an army that they're dealing with, so I'm cool with that, you know? I'm cool with that. So how about you, Sammy? Did it did it land for you and was the climax earned? And is what's some of your you know, well, go from there. Go from there, and I'll let you decide where you want to go.

SPEAKER_09 3:25:36

All right, so well, for me, it did land. The ending did land well, because the the whole goal of the of this is to get the Avengers to assemble and defend Earth against uh a huge force, some a type of force that not one hero in particular could accomplish. So I know a lot of people might say, Oh, alien invasion, it sounds like a character trope for um uh a superhero movie, but it in all honesty, for the Avengers, when you take a look at every single one of their solo projects and the villains that they have encountered in each one of their solo projects, they all can beat them. And so I don't see another way of doing a first-time Avengers Assemble without saying the words Avengers Assemble, um without doing something like an alien invasion, in my opinion. Because I think you have six amazing heroes, and this act really um showed and portrayed all of their strengths from Captain America being a leader on the ground, telling the police where to go and what to do, to Black Widow and Hawkeye reminiscing about Budapest. We still haven't seen that by the way, which is a tragedy. Um and uh doing what they do best there, and then of course, Hawk doing what he does best, all he has to do is smash. It's beautifully, it's beautifully simple. Um, and then of course Thor confronting Loki and having that be their main go at it, which makes logical sense because it stemmed from the first door movie, and then Iron Man being strategic and trying to take them down as they're flying in, and then also realizing there's something else going on, which I actually did like that this part um that the United Nations send a nuke to New York City. And I'll tell you why I like it. A lot of superhero movies ignore what would a normal person be doing when you're doing some of these things. Some some really creative, good movies. I say some of the best superhero movies, in my opinion, they don't ignore the human element of things, of what is a world government thinking, what is the United Nations or another thing thinking like that. That's why X-Men Apocalypse worked really well for me. And you can't say, well, where were they when the um apocalypse was doing his thing? Apocalypse literally sent all their missiles at the time up in the air. So no human couldn't get involved. It was the X-Men that had to get involved. So for this, that's what worked for me a little bit too, is that the United Nations is already in the background of Nick Fury from the very beginning of this movie telling him about telling them about Loki, about how I have it under control. This is my option, this is my decision, all that stuff. And they say we're overriding you. We're gonna send a nuke to one of the biggest cities in the world, arguably, but it's a city that's currently seeing an alien invasion, and there's no guarantee these Avengers are gonna be able to stop it. And Nuke, or I'm sorry, uh Nick has faith in them, the in the Avengers, but the United Nations, they don't because they already are skeptical of these type of heroes, anyways. And you see that trickle in throughout the rest of the franchise, actually. That's why the Sokovia Cords are coming up and all that stuff. And even though this isn't the reason why they came up, this is like the beginning tipping point of humans realizing there are superhumans out there, and so what we are gonna do as humans is we're gonna send a nuke because we don't know what's gonna happen, but we're gonna at least guarantee one outcome, it doesn't spread throughout the world. So for me, that part kind of worked for me. I love that they did it. I agree that I feel like they shoehorned that in. When you watch the movie, you can tell that, oh, this was kind of like a last-minute creative writing decision. But I'm glad they made it because one, it highlighted a very crucial part for Tony Stark and his character and what he was willing to do, and what you see the ramifications of that trickle into all of his future appearances, even to the moment when he meets Dan, I was saying, I have seen this, you know, type thing. Like I got I know what all this is like, um, or or at least to I know what the end game is gonna be, basically. Um and just I yeah, I I agree with you. I think it was kind of shoehorned in, but at the same time, I think it was perfect for uh both Tony Stark and for not forgetting about that human element.

SPEAKER_03 3:30:14

You see, I'm mixed on that because it's like I agree, I agree with almost everything you said, except the why it felt shoehorned in is some of the reason why I feel like it almost didn't work, but it does at the same time. Like we needed the Tony Stark moment, is what we definitely needed to happen, and that was the best way to do it. But I like what you said that it is nice and refreshing to see what we as people would be doing and deciding in this moment as well. We don't see that in a lot of stuff. What I don't like about it is this happened on this helicarrier that happened to be a nuclear bomb that's just ready to go, you know, and it's like this, and and you know, the the the steps of getting a nuclear bomb ready to go and do this stuff is more than just a pilot making sure it's all ready to go on a ship and just I agree. Like it just was so like okay, boom, boom, boom, boom, like it felt cheesy. It's but it but but it still works, right? So like that's my issue with it, where I'm like, ugh, this is ugly.

SPEAKER_09 3:31:15

In the real world scenario. I completely agree. In a real world scenario, had something like this happen, that scene would have been different. It would have been more like the president of the United States is using his thing, and then the two the keys are switched and then something is going off. That would be a little more realistic of what actually happens in the world. But I I get it, they're trying to show the Nick Fury hero moment where he actually shoots down the jet, but he doesn't show shoot down the right one or whatever it is. Right, right.

SPEAKER_03 3:31:42

So I I forget. Yeah, I understand all that. And that's and you're right, you're not wrong there, but it just it does add that little bit of silliness that we get out of Josh Sweden and this idea. Um this shows why he couldn't do Infinity War or Endgame, though. Oh, oh, yes. Because that kind of stuff wouldn't fly in those movies, yeah. And and it flies now and it still holds up, it's still good now because you can be this light in these. Because I agree with you. The idea of having the alien army and then not just being like one main bad guy is way better because you are just establish establishing these guys working together. Yeah, and how else do you do it without a big mass event like this? Which is why Loki's perfect for it, because it's we don't need a lot of him fighting them because we already got him already, so you don't need to spend a ton of time on him, and you spent most of the middle part of your movie on him and given us the scary moments so that he's just kind of looming in the background in the end. Exactly. And that and to me, that is perfect because we just need this to be an Avengers movie that works. Yes, yeah, yeah, and and that and then we can focus on Ultron next time. Yes, because we've already done the hard work here, yeah. And so I I get that, I get that. But that little tinge of silliness that we get, that little sloppy writing that you know, the hulk showing up out of nowhere, the nuclear bomb all of a sudden being available. I I feel like the one character out of all these ones that they've kind of laid to the side is Thor in this movie. Uh I don't I feel like there's times they didn't quite know what to do with him. Yeah and although the times they used him was great and and perfect, but then there's times where it's like, oh yeah, Thor's here. Well, he can just go up on that thing and throw lightning at it. You know, sometimes I felt like yeah, you couldn't tell a lot more than that. You know what I mean? Like, so I don't so there's times where I'm kind of like, yeah, Thor was it was I think Thor was probably the hardest one that when they sat down in a writer's room. Okay, so where is he during all this? Oh yeah. I completely what do we do there? You know, and but a lot of this is also pre-Thor with a sense of humor. And sometimes you come off as like, man, as much as I like Thor in his in his solo movie, when I watch him in this ensemble, he's my least favorite out of them. And and but he's not, but he is like just in this way he's put in this, and and it's and then a lot of it is because they didn't have that mix of look, Thor needs to have a little more of a personality than just this spoiled brat as guardian kid, you know.

SPEAKER_09 3:34:11

And well, this is also pre-Thor before he's leveled up.

SPEAKER_03 3:34:14

No, that you're right. A hundred percent. I mean, it is it is pre-that, and now that we know we've gotten the other stuff, it's hard not to see it in other ways. So and that's what makes it tough. So but if you know I do think that they struggled with him though. I completely did good with him, but I do think he was the hardest one for them to put in this, you know. Um, I thought they they were able to pull it off real well though, but yeah, I yeah, it it it's that silliness, and it's like that kind of stuff is overlookable though, you know.

SPEAKER_09 3:34:43

So yeah, no, I I completely agree with you, and I think when they're in the writer's room and they're like, okay, what's everybody doing? What's all these characters doing? I do think that their hardest one to to give the scenes to is Thor. Like we're seeing some cool action on our screen right now of some of the things he just did, but that's all you see him do. Yeah, I think that I the only thing that really worked for Thor was that oh, I'm gonna confront Loki and I'm also gonna throw lightning up there and oh, you use me to help restart Tony's heart if it needs to be, because I think that was one of the things he was trying to do, type thing.

SPEAKER_03 3:35:18

Um Yeah, and you know, and the stuff between him and Cap, it if there was anyone that was gonna give Cap a hard time about being in charge, I actually thought it would have been Thor more so than Tony. I think Tony was gonna kind of give Cap a hard time, but I always felt like Thor would have been like, no, I'm gonna tell you what we're gonna do. Because he came off like that to me before.

SPEAKER_09 3:35:45

In the first Thor, he was like that.

SPEAKER_03 3:35:47

But yeah, and he's not like that at all here. It's almost he's almost he learned his humility. Oh, that's right. He's able to wield the hammer because he realized oh, he's humble now. Bullshit.

SPEAKER_02 3:36:06

Guys, at least they're consistent. If you haven't watched our Thor retrospective, that might have lost this movie a point. I'm not gonna lie to you.

SPEAKER_09 3:36:15

If you haven't watched our Thor retrospective, uh take a moment when you're done watching this or listening to this and go back to that episode just a couple episodes back.

SPEAKER_03 3:36:24

That's no. All right, very good, Sammy. Very touche, but I don't know if I like it. I don't know if I like it.

SPEAKER_09 3:36:33

Um best moment for you in act three.

SPEAKER_03 3:36:36

Oh man, I gotta tell you. There's two moments. Uh, the obvious answer is the ensemble camera view of them all standing right there. Them them all standing in a circle, and there they are. Then there's the other obvious answer when they do later on, they do that shot where they go back and forth to see what they're all doing. My personal favorite best moment is between Loki and Tony Stark when Tony shows up at the tower. I love this moment. I love this scene. Do you want to drink? You know, and they're having this conversation because it's, I mean, he knows how dangerous Loki is the whole time he's watching him and he's keeping an eye on him and what he's doing, but it's this undertone conversation they're having. And Tony gets those lines in this movie. The best little speech of, you know, we'll be damn sure that we'll avenge it. You might win today, but you'll be damn sure we'll avenge it. You know, and it's like he just that's the that's what I mean with Tony. He'll look his executioner in the eye and say, I dare you to. You know what I mean? And when he throws him out the window, and it's another awesome suit scene where he gets all suited up. I mean, I love the suited up moments with Tony Stark and then and Iron Man. It's so good. But yeah, no, I love that scene. That's it to me, that's the best moment probably in the entire movie, to be honest with you. It but I get it, the other two are iconic. Iconic. They're like drilled into us now, and they're great. But boy, I love that scene with him and Loki. That's so good. Yeah.

SPEAKER_09 3:38:03

No, that's that is a really good scene. That's a really good scene. Um, my my favorite moment in act three was Tony taking the nuke through the portal. Um, for me, yeah. For me, the feel I I I this is coming from by the way, Tony Stark is probably how do I say this properly? Because I don't want to say it and then have to recant that later. Um he is Iron Man is not of all the Avengers the most interesting one to me. I wouldn't say he's the least interesting, but he's not in my top two or three. Interesting. Wow. So for me to have any sort of feelings for him, I have to have uh there has to be a certain gravitas of the performance and a feeling of urgency of what he's doing actually matters and things like that. Um, and a lot of that, I'll be honest, is comes from a little bias. I didn't like him in the comics. Uh Robert Darwin Jr. embodying him made me like him more.

SPEAKER_01 3:39:14

Yeah. But then that's how I felt about Kevin.

SPEAKER_09 3:39:16

Then he's the same thing as Captain America and that solidifies how much I liked him from the comics to the movies, and so it's like, okay, it's bouncing out. But you're making me like Tony a little bit, excuse me, too, in the MCU. But for that's why I'm making this as my my favorite moment in Act Three, because it surprised me in a good way. And it the feels were all there. I was literally on the edge of my seat, even in the retrospect of watching it, and like I've already seen this before, but just to be reminded of what he chooses to do with that nuke when he knows it's coming, and also something very tony is not just to destroy the nuke. It's I'm gonna redirect it to our enemy to stop them once and for all, because that's the only way to stop them. So smart, of course, Tony, being as one of the smartest man alive, could come up with. But knowing that he even tries to make that last phone call, the pepper, and it it doesn't go through. And it's like, oh it made me feel for him. Thinking he actually this could have gone so wrong for him. All of it could have gone so wrong. And even when he was falling back down to the ground, that could have gone wrong too. Because no human, no matter whether you're in the suit or not, can survive a thought fall like that. So it's just perfect that the hawk called him, then they restart his heart. And my by the way, he still has that shrapnel going to his heart this whole time. It wasn't until the next movie after this that he actually gets that fixed. But anyways, it's um I I will label this as my favorite moment in act three.

SPEAKER_03 3:40:55

Um I'm surprised to hear you say that he hasn't that he's lower on your interesting characters, to be honest. Because definitely for me, this this is this is Tony, right? Yeah, like he's he's not supposed to be alive. And when Cap says, you know, that's a that's a one-way ticket, you know, and he basically is like Yeah, I know. You know, it's like not only spoiler alert, does it lead up to eventually what he ultimately does for everybody, anyways? You know, but like he's in his mind still at this moment after going through what he went through in the first two movies. He's he's he feels like he's on borrowed time, he should have died in that cave. Yeah, I think that's why he's always been one of my I mean, he is one of my probably the my second favorite. And and uh and I know this cliche, everyone says, of course he is, but but guys, look how good it is. It is good. I mean you you can all call me cliche and a shill for it all you want, but there's a reason why Robert is who he is for this, you know, and and why it's worked so well, which is actually some of the reason why I'm really worried about him being doomed. But we'll talk about that in our other stuff when we get there. But like he just does so well in these moments, and he's one of the better actors in this ensemble. He is, and that then that and it shows when these moments happen. Like when you see just his face and he's able to convey that emotion and what's going on, yeah. And this, and of course, him going through the portal and seeing what he sees and all that sets up for so much later coming, right? That once we get to those movies, we'll we'll look back on and realize it's a big deal. Because now it's a guy that not only did he survive this, but he survived what he survived before, he survived this, and now he's seen the future, really. Ultimately, he knows what's out there more so than everybody else does. And I I'm I I love it. Like I'm glad you like it though. I'm glad it you it for someone that has him a little lower on your list of of the most interesting. I'm glad this stuck out to you though, because I think you're gonna feel that you're gonna like him more now during our retrospectives as we go. I bet you by the time we get to Infinity War, he's gonna be number two on your list. I bet you because it's like because you're because that through line that we were able to talk about differently now that we've seen it, right? And we're going through them so quick, it's it's such a different watch than waiting years or months. So I think you're gonna see that, you know, we're gonna see this thing culminate and bloom, you know. Yeah, um, which is some of the same, but I have the same feelings that you did like about Captain America. I didn't like him as a character in the comics at all. You know, but these movies, oh my god. Like he's he's probably my favorite, and uh he's amazing, you know. It's like but so isn't Tony, and and they all have their own thing. But yeah, I'm glad you felt that way about that. That's good.

SPEAKER_09 3:43:50

Well, I had to I had to, and because I I said that and I I said, okay, Sam, write down real quick all the Avengers and make that I had on my list in my head to make sure when I see it on paper, does this look right? And this does look accurate to me. I have for me personally, Captain America, of course, is number one, I have Thor as number two, and then Iron Man is number three. So he's within my top three, but he's not my number two or one.

SPEAKER_10 3:44:18

Then Black Widow, Hawkeye, and Hulk.

SPEAKER_03 3:44:21

Yeah, I think we're the same, just flip around Thor and Kat and Thor into Iron Man. Because I I do care about Thor too, but I've always I've always found that you know that I found the heart of the story really with Iron Man. Some of my favorite scenes are between him and Captain, you know.

SPEAKER_09 3:44:39

Yeah. Now if if if this is just the MCU, what my list is, if I had to write down from what I know uh the comics or the animated stuff, Iron Man's even lower on the list.

SPEAKER_03 3:44:49

Well, I wonder what our top ten, like our top six X-Men. Who's the most important X-Men to you?

SPEAKER_09 3:44:56

Oh my gosh, that's gonna be so that's gonna be so.

SPEAKER_03 3:45:00

And does Magneto count on that list?

SPEAKER_09 3:45:03

In my opinion, he doesn't. Because he is not an X-Man.

SPEAKER_01 3:45:09

But he kind of is sometimes.

SPEAKER_09 3:45:10

He plays that, but he still is an adversary. That's one of the things we like about Magneto is that he might be with you and sitting with Charles and all that, but when push comes to shove, his his thought process, like in days of future past, is not wrong. It's just not the right way to get it.

SPEAKER_03 3:45:26

You gotta be honest though, with me. When he went in the scene that made you want to jump up and scream and just clap and just be like, hell yeah, was in apocalypse when he puts the metal X right down in front. I mean, come on. Like he's an X-Men that day.

SPEAKER_09 3:45:44

Oh, yeah. That in that moment, he's like, We all are X-Men against you. Yeah. Oh, oh, I agree. When that happened, when we get to that movie, guys. We'll be geeking out that whole movie when we get there. And we will, yeah, but we're on the March of Doomsday. This is the first Avengers. Yep. But yeah, that's uh so uh that's that's my biggest moment, my uh best moment, I should say, for act three. What was yours? Did you already say it?

SPEAKER_03 3:46:14

Yeah, I already did. It was uh them in the in the tower when they were talking.

SPEAKER_10 3:46:17

Oh, yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 3:46:18

Yeah, I just love it. I just love the banter. I think his little speech he gives to him, like I said before, it it to me culminates what we look forward to as the Avengers going forward. Always. Like that if there was ever a statement that you put, like a mission statement that you put on a building, Tony's little speech to him. So you'll be damn sure we'll avenge it. You know what I mean? It's yeah, to me, it's like the mission statement of the Avengers going forward. You know, and he because he ultimately being Nick Fury never really wanted him in it, but he did want him in it, but he knew he was gonna be hard to control, so Nick did his Nick Fury thing and kept him at a distance, but needed him when he did. He still kind of became the face of them, anyways, by saying I am Iron Man. And then of course Steve takes that step in. Yeah, it's yeah, yeah. I love that moment.

SPEAKER_09 3:47:02

All right. So uh did you already talk about what your biggest issue was in the act?

SPEAKER_03 3:47:06

Yeah, it was the nuke stuff-ish, you know, some of that in the little. It just felt like it was a little shoehorned. I mean, I mean, there's tons of great moments in this though that we didn't cover yet. I mean, when he I love when he says, you know, hey, we need you to get a little mad now, and he says, that's the key, you know. I am I'm always mad.

SPEAKER_06 3:47:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 3:47:23

That's interesting. You know, I like that. It's a great way of him turning into an awesome moment. Yeah. He turns and just punches that big old worm thing, whatever the hell you want to call those. Is there a name for those? Do we know? Put in the comments, guys. What's the name of those things called?

SPEAKER_09 3:47:36

Yeah, what what is the name of those big things are coming down to their shields that like their skin is impenetrable?

SPEAKER_03 3:47:42

And yeah, it seems like they he they carry guys with them too, because when it comes down, they're they're jumping off of them.

SPEAKER_09 3:47:47

Yeah, there's a name for them.

SPEAKER_03 3:47:48

Yeah, it's like a transport that's alive. Yeah, whatever the hell it is.

SPEAKER_09 3:47:53

Like they're like big whales coming down. Oh space whales, that's what we're gonna call them. Space whales. The space whales.

SPEAKER_03 3:48:00

Yeah, yeah. Look at them space whales. Uh remember the ugly, nasty space whale. Oh man. I do want to point out that uh cap is just a natural born later. And like, he tells that cop all that stuff, and the cop's like, who's that guy? And then he beats the crap out of the aliens.

SPEAKER_00 3:48:18

The cops are like, all right, let's yeah, like it's like listen to this dude.

SPEAKER_03 3:48:23

Like, he knows what he's talking about. You know what didn't also work? I have to say it's silly, and I'm glad it got changed later. Man, Cap looks like he's in pajamas.

SPEAKER_02 3:48:33

Yes. It looks better this time.

SPEAKER_09 3:48:36

I will I will admit when I was re-watching it, I'm like, it's not as bad as I thought it was, but it does still look it looks like embroidered pajamas.

SPEAKER_03 3:48:46

Yeah, I'm glad we I'm glad we got to a rustic looking Captain America later on because this was like your outfit. Someone needs to have a conversation with you. Like, we get it, we get it. And it's what you look like, but man, still I like his more military, military-looking stuff. Like his more especially when we get to like nomad cap and all that. He looks awesome.

SPEAKER_08 3:49:07

Oh, so good.

SPEAKER_03 3:49:08

Yes, yes. Um, yeah, he's so great in that. I'm just trying to make sure I cover there's a couple things I've written down, but I think we just covered all that. So what is your score then for act three? My score for act three, I'm gonna give it a solid uh eight out of ten.

SPEAKER_09 3:49:23

Okay.

SPEAKER_10 3:49:25

I gave it a nine point five.

SPEAKER_06 3:49:27

Okay.

SPEAKER_09 3:49:28

I'm with you. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's hard for me to justify why didn't I just go 10 out of 10, but par me is like the the thing I would say that in a retrospect that didn't if I had to say that didn't work for me, or my biggest issue was Bruce Banner's entrance. Yeah, yeah, because we're just out of nowhere, right? It l it literally is. It's he I don't remember him being was he walking with uh Steve Rogers and Natasha Romanoff and Clint Barton onto one of the the jets? No, I don't remember. He shows up on a little motorcycle. It's funny moment. Yes, I'll give I'll give you that. That was really real funny to see him. Oh, for sure. But part of me is like, how do you know where they were? And he just for me, it's a little it's a little out of character personally for me for a guy who tries to avoid conflict, and he says that all the time. So it goes into the heart of the city in Age of Ultron. He says, I'm the guy who tends to avoid conflict, and that's also a great moment we're gonna get to in Age of Ultron when we get there. Um, uh scene he has about it. But in this movie, he literally drives to the place on a moped. Yeah, like but that's the only thing.

SPEAKER_03 3:50:40

But that's the silliness of Josh Sweden that we get.

SPEAKER_09 3:50:43

That's the silliness, but at the same time, when he says, uh, here's my secret cap, I'm always angry. He transforms in the Hulk. That's an awesome moment. That see, one of the worries I had with Hulk being part of this last act would be, okay, how are we gonna get the Hulk? Because you're already fighting these alien monsters, and the Hulk is this uncontrollable monster in and of himself, and at the moment he's gonna be fighting with you because he's fight he's smashing, he's smashing all the things are attacking and shooting him. But once those things stop attacking and shooting him, you gotta take out the Hulk then, because he's gonna be going after you. So I loved that they decided, you know what? We're just gonna make it where he does have control of the Hulk when he wants to.

SPEAKER_03 3:51:30

Yeah, I mean, uh you could you could say that that's smart to do, but it also kind of makes no sense. They're really willy-nilly with the Hulk in general. Yeah, they are all over the place in the MCU with him. Um it sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Yeah, I overlooked it. You pointed out actually made me kind of go, oh, he did. All of a sudden he is kind of their buddy. Like, gosh, we just had a whole second act where he wasn't their buddy.

SPEAKER_09 3:51:59

Exactly. And it's nice to see him and nice to see him part of the ensemble because I can't picture the Avengers without the Hulk in it. Yeah, but at the same time, for for this part, it's just very convenient that he's not the bad guy to them, still, you know.

SPEAKER_01 3:52:15

Like, why did he save Tony?

SPEAKER_09 3:52:18

I it just the all what that only says to me is the thing about the Hulk, there's a lot more complexity to him than we maybe realize, and that that's where the writers can have a lot more creative freedom with him because they can either make it where he is a completely separate personality that's under his own control, not Bruce's control, or when he turns into it when he wants to, they have similar agenda and what they want to do, and they're gonna do it. And he's he stays the Hulk and he stays like the good version of the Hulk this whole time, which is cool, and it's nice to see. I actually like that version of the Hulk. I actually forgot that it was the Hulk yelling at Tony that woke him up. That's right. Yeah, it wasn't Thor using lightning to help star his heart, it was literally the Hulk doing that.

SPEAKER_03 3:52:59

You know, it's funny in Thor Ragnarok to actually explain that better with him, like what he's like. He's kind of like a big kid in it that's angry all the time.

SPEAKER_09 3:53:09

Yeah, and dare dare I dare I say, because I know I'm trying to remember everything that happened to him in Age of Ultron, but we're gonna get there when we get there. The time that I think that they really write the Hulk well is Ragnarok.

SPEAKER_01 3:53:22

Yeah, I agree.

SPEAKER_09 3:53:22

Yeah, I agree. Yeah, separating him from Bruce and then making it where we liked seeing both of them when we saw.

SPEAKER_03 3:53:30

Well, it's the first time we realized that there's there's a competition inside of him. So I guess that's more so than we're seeing now. But we know it's kind of the truth now, obviously, but but they're just so willy-nilly with it, where it's like, well, we're just not gonna the Hulk's gonna suit us for our story.

SPEAKER_06 3:53:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 3:53:45

And it works. Which, which is, you know, I mean, it's kind of a McGuffin, but it's okay. Which kind of, you know, reminds me not to stay in this act for too long, but it does remind me that I don't know if I'm okay with him smashing Loki around in that kind of being to kaput to that, you know. Uh I think it's funny, but it's that silliness that doesn't work in Age of Ultron. You know, when he jumps into that quinjet in age of Ultron, just in age of ultrason and you hear Ultron in the background go, Oh, are you kidding me? It felt like a really weird, cheesy cartoon. And I'm like, what the hell are we watching here? We'll get there to that, guys. I'm jumping far ahead. But I'm only I'm only comparing it because we were talking about the same, this is the same director. So like it's like the same kind of feel, you know. The Ultron has this same kind of feel, and and it that's what this felt like to me. This felt like a a comedic moment that didn't quite work, but yet didn't ruin anything either. You know, him just grabbing Loki and tossing him around and doing that. Yeah, it's funny, but was that really the end of how oh that's just we got him now? It's like yeah, I don't know. I don't know. It felt a little bam, you know, once it was done. So that that's kind of why it got a eight out of ten for me.

SPEAKER_09 3:54:58

So no, I get it. Yeah, totally. That's that's the only thing that I would say that stuck out to me as what did this really work? Ah that for the Hulk, it it's it's kind of 50-50 for me. I didn't like his entrance, but I liked what they do with him after that. Yeah, and I think that he they're they're really showing throughout the MCU that you can have a creative liberty with the Hulk. As long as it's telling a good enough compelling story, I can overlook how they're writing him sometimes. But um, yeah. Well, I wonder how they're gonna make his kid.

SPEAKER_03 3:55:28

Like, what's he gonna do? Alright, moving on.

SPEAKER_02 3:55:33

Anyways, anyways, guys, let me just guess post-credit scene.

SPEAKER_09 3:55:37

What happens in space? The aftermath of Loki's defeat reveals a greater threat. The mysterious figure known as the mad titan, Thanos, smiles, implying Loki's invasion was only the beginning of a larger cosmic war. And then that's the mid-credit scene, guys. The post-credit scene is the Avengers, exhausted after their battle, gathered quietly at a Schwarma restaurant in New York City, eating in silence after saving the world. So, what are your thoughts on let's just let's get the funny one out of the way. What's your post-credit scene thoughts on the Schwarma thing?

SPEAKER_03 3:56:12

I love it. Why I love it is because through the MCU at this point, building up till now, every post-credit scene is important and serious, and it's moving forward. And now that we've got the Avengers, this is almost like Marvel and them even going, Whew, we we got that done, and they're all sitting down having dinner. There's like a meta look into like them relaxing after a crazy time, and I enjoyed that.

SPEAKER_09 3:56:36

Did you know that that was improvised? That whole scene. Yeah. It's uh if I remember right, and please correct me, internet, if I'm wrong, because I don't want to get it wrong, but it this is just in between takes and they're having lunch, and they're like, This looks perfect. Let's just film them eating lunch. Yeah, and they did. It's like, and it compliments to the writing when he's like, I want a goshwarma after this in the middle of the battle. I want a swarma after this. I've never tried it. I'd like to try it. I don't even know what swarma is, guys. It just yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 3:57:06

No, I like this because it is like that sigh of relief, even for the MCU itself. Like, hey, we finally gave you the Avengers movie, and they're all like, oh, phew, just relaxing. Yes, yeah. It's kind of it was like a cap on that. I like that.

SPEAKER_09 3:57:18

No, the mid-credit scene.

SPEAKER_03 3:57:20

Yeah, so it's good because oh, there's a big bad out there that would something bigger, but I had no idea who this is. You know, I'm not a comic book guy, so I'm like, who's this guy? And so if for me at first, it was like, okay, there's something big bad coming. As I noticed all my friends and people around me going, woo, losing their crap. I'm like, okay, this gotta be real big, right? Yeah. So I say it did its job because it's a to lead up. I mean, how many years until we finally get Thanos? Really?

SPEAKER_09 3:57:52

Yeah, well, to me, I would say this was very ambitious. As a comic book fan, my seeing him. Yeah. And you know, usually, typically in the movie, when especially now, this is an established franchise, so we know they're gonna continue making movies like that. By this point, they wanted to see if the Avengers worked, and obviously it did, or it's gonna get at this time, also it's been bought out by Fox. So this movie still has the Paramount label on it, but it I'm sorry, not Fox. Correct, I'm sorry, Disney, the studio Marvel Comics in general was bought out by Disney. So this still had the Paramount label on it because it was still part of their original deal. Yeah, but um I think for the physical distribution, it went to Disney because of this. It was just in the midst of all that stuff happening. That's just from my understanding. I might be wrong on some of that, but it really was in the middle of all this stuff going on, anyways. Um a typical movie, you see a tease for another bad guy at the end, and that usually hints that this is their sequel movie is gonna have this bad guy. So, what's ambitious, in my opinion, is that they tease this bad guy. There's a really big bad guy in Marvel Comics, and they did they decided not to jump to him for Avengers 2. They did a very bold move, and I think that they felt like they had the established uh establishment and the security in the MCU to do this, because I don't think you could do this with um or almost any other franchise, is that make him a villain you're building up to over a decade of movies. Yep. It's very ambitious and it's very smart on them to say we're not gonna do Avengers 2 with the mad titan Thanos, we're gonna do Ultron and someone else, you know, a different villain. And still at that post-credit scene hint that Thanos is still out there, you know. I love that type of build-up because it really, when you get to Infinity War and Endgame, you felt like this is the end because you were building up to this moment for so long, and it was a payoff for doing it.

SPEAKER_03 4:00:03

Yeah, it it definitely is like they made a decision.

SPEAKER_09 4:00:06

There's there's this the scene right now.

SPEAKER_03 4:00:08

Oh, yeah, it's funny how it always happens, right?

SPEAKER_09 4:00:10

Really funny, this is like a completely I mean I know Thanos is CGI, but this is even when they had the color tone wrong, uh, in comparison to what we eventually got. This one is like a deeper purple Thano, so we got one a little bit more lighter later on, but still, it was just a cool scene for us comic book nerds to be like, oh my gosh, we know who that is.

SPEAKER_03 4:00:30

Yeah, and and like them putting it in there that was them deciding, look, we're in this for the long game now.

SPEAKER_06 4:00:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:00:35

And it's in everybody got on board, you know, real quick. Especially once we once Age of Ultron comes and we still don't have him, we're like, okay, this bigger thing coming. It's just like we're hooked even more. That's what this new phase is of MCU is lacking, in my opinion. Yeah, there's no through line with them right now, you know, and and this and that that felt like there's a through line.

SPEAKER_09 4:01:00

Yeah, you know, so it felt like they had a greater plan, even though they didn't even know themselves how they're gonna do it. It it gave the illusion and the impression to all of us as fans of they have this under control, they know what they're gonna do.

SPEAKER_03 4:01:12

Well, and as a writer myself, I like to write on the side. And one thing that I found that's easier for me is when I write stories, I usually write the ending first. Because I, or at least maybe not write the ending first, but I know how my story's going to end before I write the meat of it. Because I want all this to get to there. And when they did that, they've put it on all the writers and all the filmmakers in between, realizing we're getting to this. So so then we did get the Russo's and they say, Look, we're gonna give you the task of making all that be worth it. And we've kind of sprinkled in Infinity Stones and sprinkled in that Thanos's coming. Here you are, what can you do? They in four movies gave us an idea that was amazing. And I You know, obviously that's not what we're doing now with the MCU. And that's what scares me is they're flying by the seat of the pants again, but they shouldn't have to be.

SPEAKER_08 4:02:08

Yeah. Yeah, but they are.

SPEAKER_03 4:02:09

And they did they done this to themselves with with uh with their decisions they've made. But but yeah, no, this, yeah, very ambitious, very big. Works for me 100% though.

SPEAKER_09 4:02:18

Oh, yes, yes. How important to the MCU this is? Very important. Uh hype level, 100%. 10 out of 10 for me.

SPEAKER_03 4:02:26

Yep, same, 10 out of 10.

SPEAKER_09 4:02:27

All right. Now, guys, we're gonna get into some character deep dives. Yep. And uh for uh the Avengers movie in particular, this big ensemble, we have to break them down by character and what our thoughts were of each one of them.

SPEAKER_03 4:02:42

So yeah, I might be quick on a few of these, but you know.

SPEAKER_09 4:02:46

Yeah, let me see where my note is for that. There it is. I don't want to mess up. Okay, so the first one we have on our list is Samuel L. Jackson as Nick Fury.

SPEAKER_03 4:02:56

What an asshole. This guy, he is just uh he just every decision that he makes is just it's always backdooring behind someone's back. I like him as Nick Fury, though. Don't get me wrong, I think he's great. He commands the scene. I love that when the guy's like, oh, we don't have navigation no more. He goes, Is the sun coming up or whatever? And or going down. He goes, Yeah, well, he goes, then point at easy. See what I mean? He just knows like what to do. Like he uh I just his character in this still does show that there's a lot of backstabbiness. Yeah, but I will say for when it comes down to him playing Nick Fury, I mean, gosh, man, like you can't pick a better yeah. I mean, he's another one of those actors, like like we've talked about in all these other movies, that brings gravitas and importance to the movie and gives it some sort of you know, a bigger feeling of what it really is, you know. And yeah, um, I'm actually very upset, very sad that he's not utilized better in the future. You know, it it's too bad that the best of him we get is in these first couple phases, and then it just kind of turns into you know, where the hell is he even right now on timeline wise? Yeah, you know, so it's like in and how important is he, right? But in this, it felt more important and it really works. And I like him in this. So, how about you? What do you feel about that?

SPEAKER_09 4:04:07

I wrote down he delivers. Um, the what I like about him is the way that he can whip together some of these intimidating people, himself without superpowers, but yet he comes off as the guy in charge type thing. Yeah, I think I think Samuel L. Jackson is a great actor for this character, and I think he plays him really, really well, and he himself can be intimidating all by himself. And uh, I think that's kind of cool. He he really proves, he doesn't prove it in this film yet, but when you when we get to Cap Winter Soldier movie, he really proves he is the ultimate spy. And I think that this is like a beginning little, still a little intro to him. I know we've seen him like post-cred scenes, Iron Man 2, things like that, but this is where we get a full-on Nick Fury's in the film, and you get a taste of what he can do. And I like it, it's pretty good. Yep. All right, Colby Smalders as Maria Hill, the newcomer for the franchise. What are your thoughts on her?

SPEAKER_03 4:05:02

So I don't have too much to say because we don't get a ton of her in this. We don't, no. I I think that she um I was surprised when I first saw her. I remember when I first saw this movie, I had known her from um How I Met Your Mother. Yep, me too. And and she's okay in that. You know, I'm not a huge fan of that show, but it was a fun watch. Um but she's she's okay in that. This showed me that oh, look, this this she's an actress that is actually getting some attention, you know. It's funny because she actually is now in shrinking, um, that I watch on Apple Plus and back with uh Jason. Like they started on How I Met Your Mother, and then they're in Shrinking together as well. Oh, that's and it's kind of a weird combination and playing very different parts, but like it's just I it's good to see her in this. I got excited, she looked pretty badass in her scenes, you know. So like I blew I was looking forward to what they're gonna do with her, yeah, and not happy with what they ended up doing with her, but I was looking forward to where it was gonna go. So yeah, not much to say though, because we really didn't get a ton, you know.

SPEAKER_09 4:06:01

I completely agree and echo everything you just said, to be honest, because I only knew her from how I met your mother, and that's a very comedic TV show. Yeah, and she plays a great job in that show, of course. But seeing her in this role, it it showed to me that this is a multifaceted actor. Not only can she do comedy, but she can also do action, and she does it very well and very seriously. And actually, I I like excuse me, I wrote on here that um she definitely has elevated um well. Uh, I thought this was a great way of introducing her.

SPEAKER_05 4:06:37

Yep.

SPEAKER_09 4:06:38

She isn't this she isn't this big of a character to in a solo movie, having to introduce her kind of like how we introduce uh Black Widow and Nick Fury and stuff like that, but she's great of a character in to introduce an Avengers movie. Yeah. And I will say I don't like her in the comics because she comes off as very like I'm a woman trying to be a man in charge type thing in the comics. Whereas in this one, she understands that I am second in command and she doesn't play up that that part. Uh so I like the MCU version better than the comic version.

SPEAKER_03 4:07:14

Okay. Well, they're not cramming some sort of political statement down your throat.

SPEAKER_09 4:07:19

Yeah, and even so to a degree in the comics, she's she's just unlikable in the comics. She really they make they make her where she has to, because Nick Fury is gone in the comics and she takes over as Nick Fury, overcompensate that I can do this to the point where it becomes very obvious that she does some things in the comics that she does it on purpose to show that she's powerful. Yeah.

SPEAKER_10 4:07:50

She has the power.

SPEAKER_09 4:07:51

And I think it was a way for maybe it was like a little metaphor thing on uh maybe the writers were thinking something along the lines of women have to do things ten times harder than the man, so they're gonna display it in Maria Hill taking over Shield. But it it really is unnecessary. I find it a little bit unnecessary, and in the MCU, I actually like her in the MCU. Cool. So there you go. Anyways, um what's uh next next person is Greg Clark as Phil Colson.

SPEAKER_03 4:08:25

Yeah, I think this guy's great, is this role, you know, and I and he's had many times throughout the other movies, he's had great scenes where he's talked about stuff and how he says things to people, you know. Um it's too bad that his best scene is him dying. And it was unnecessary and didn't need to happen. I'm gonna I'm gonna die on that hill, guys. Um, yeah, no, I liked him in this. And and his sacrifice was good. Like it was like he did it his it was it was not out of character for him to do what he did.

SPEAKER_06 4:09:00

Yeah, for sure. Yeah.

SPEAKER_09 4:09:01

All right. Uh for me, I he's just very likable guy. Um I yeah, it's very clear when you watch the movie that even if you're not too much of a Colson fan, you do like him because he just agreed he's kind of cool. So um maybe for us as an audience, it could be a little more of the catalyst of Wannsee the Avengers, more so than the Avengers actually coming together. Uh to a degree. Would you say maybe that? Nope. Or nope, okay.

SPEAKER_01 4:09:30

Let's try.

SPEAKER_09 4:09:32

Tried. He tried. Um yeah, I would just say he's very likable. Yeah, great actor, great role for him. And actually, it's um if you had to see someone pass away in this movie, it would be it added heaviness, but it did, yeah, but still didn't do it. Still not to the level that would have been Avengers Assembled.

SPEAKER_03 4:09:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_09 4:09:52

All right.

SPEAKER_03 4:09:53

Um, Robert Downey Jr. as Iron Man. I mean, what's to say?

SPEAKER_09 4:09:57

Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 4:09:58

He's so good. And and I like he's very funny in this one still. I like the humor is still there. Those little I still will never get over those little moments of him poking at the Hulk at Bruce Banner. I like their friendship. I like his banter with Cap. I like that he holds a grudge against Captain because his dad always talked about him. Yep, yep. It's almost like, you know, he liked you more than he liked me. So, you know, it's like I like that, you know, and I think that that's and I think that kind of plays throughout. Yeah. And I think that is somewhat the catalyst to their problem between them two, is because he had more time with his father than he did.

SPEAKER_06 4:10:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:10:36

That Cap had more time with his father than he did, and it and it bothers the hell out of him, you know. So I think that that's Tony, because Tony can be, you know, kind of what's the word I'm looking for? He can be kind of petty about some things, you know. Like he really gets super petty about stuff sometimes. So um, and that's one of them for sure. You know, so I like that. And I I like that they kept he they like that they let Robert cook and just do his thing.

SPEAKER_09 4:11:00

I agree. Yeah. I wrote down he's great. Yeah, he's just he's just great. The funniest lines I would say came from him.

SPEAKER_03 4:11:06

Oh, for sure. Yeah.

SPEAKER_09 4:11:07

Yeah, he really brought that. All right, Chris Evans asks, my man, Captain America.

SPEAKER_03 4:11:12

Yeah, awesome. Like I like that they were still doing this fish out of water, man out of time thing.

SPEAKER_04 4:11:18

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 4:11:18

Uh, I love all I mean when he says that thing, and it's the you know, it still runs on some type of electricity. It's like I'm just like this guy. Like he or old golly. You hear him say old golly like three or four times. Like it's just I love, I love that Cap is just like that guy.

SPEAKER_08 4:11:34

There's only one God ma'am and he doesn't look like that.

SPEAKER_03 4:11:36

Yeah, he ha ha ha like he's like that. Yeah, he he's he's awesome. Like he's yeah, Cap is just you like him because he just he's so innocent minded too. He's just like, what do you tell? Like, what's going on? Like I just I like but he's smart still, yeah, and he knows what to do, and he and he's willing to put himself there and and he's finding his way in this new world, you know, real quick. Like, and it's ah man, I I every time I think Cap and I think about him being that man out of time thing, you go from a guy who fought Nazis to sleeping 70 years frozen in ice to like that scene in Endgame when they're going in space and they decide to focus on his eyes as he's like, Whoa, I mean, this guy's now gone into different galaxies, like Captain America, right? Like it's just been he's been everywhere. Like he's just it's it's to focus on him seeing the astonishment of it. Is that's kind of you know, I like he's our conduit. I really think if there's any of these guys that they want us as an audience to feel like we're seeing this world through anyone's eyes, it's his. Yeah. Even in this movie and in the others. So yeah, it's so good. I completely agree. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_09 4:12:48

I wrote I agree. Everything on your sentiment, I wrote that I think that his transition to a man out of time was demonstrated very well in this film. Yep. Um, he comes across very strong to the point where I can see um like people that would thought he was a little too whiny a little bit, but he's he's not.

SPEAKER_03 4:13:07

Well, I didn't feel that at all. No, yeah, he's not at all. Whoever says that needs to watch different movies then. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's just it's so good. It that he's just so good. Anyways, uh uh Chris Hemsworth as Thor. So yeah, we kind of touched on this earlier. He's great as Thor, but this is that Thor that now that we know what he's gonna become later, it's hard not to see how dull he can be sometimes. Um, but at the same time, I like the playfulness this Thor still had that I think they kind of make bigger later, you know, they kind of let come out a little more later. But when he like when he goes to fight the hawk, he gives that smile, okay. We're we're gonna rom up here, you know what I mean? It's like he likes it, but because he isn't his guard, he likes to fight, you know. It's but yeah, no, I but I also do feel like in this movie specifically they had a hard time of what to do with him, so they relied heavy on the whole remember the last time we saw Thor, he thought Loki was dead, and it worked all those times, but it just it just felt like it relied heavy on that.

SPEAKER_09 4:14:08

Yeah, yeah. I I hear you. I I wrote down that Thor for me, he worked for this film. This is the beginning of the Thor that I liked. Thor one was okay, but Thor um in Cat in Avengers one and in Thor the Dark World are two of my favorite Thors and in Nage of Ultron, those are my favorite Thors. I like what they've done. See, one thing about Thor, and we've talked about this in the very first episode of our podcast, guys, is that there are so many different views and opinions of him that they've changed him a couple different times to fit those narratives or what audiences would like of him more, whether it was a Chris Hemsworth request or a fans request or things like that. And um, so you kind of get whatever version of Thor you like, you will get that in the MCU. Yeah, and so for me, I like the North missile mythology Thor that um his funny lines are kind of accidental just because of his ignorance, yep, not because he's pushing a funny envelope. Don't get me wrong, I don't mind Ragnarok and I don't mind Love and Thunder and all that stuff. It's just that when it came to like the dark world and things like that, those are the ones that I um gravitate towards the most. So all right, so uh Scarlett Johansson as Black Widow. What are your thoughts on her?

SPEAKER_03 4:15:26

Yeah, you kind of alluded to this earlier. Uh she's awesome in this movie. I I will dare say probably the best we ever get of her. Um not that she's not great in Age of Ultron. I think she's great in Infinity War.

SPEAKER_09 4:15:44

I think she's great in Civil War.

SPEAKER_03 4:15:45

I yeah, yes. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I don't know. Should do a lot, shouldn't do a lot. Let's be honest. Okay, I I got you. She's not bad. She's not bad. Um, but and she's also she's good in Endgame. Obviously, is a big deal in Endgame. Yeah, but but with this, so like this is what a way to just be like, look, let's just give her room to do her thing and let's make her important and not just be the black widow, but she's important to everything that goes on in this, you know. I I I enjoy this. I love that in the New York City battle, she's not just a person like doing things, she's jumping and grabbing these things and flying around with them, but she does some things where you're like, oh wow, this is something that so this person needs to know how to do this stuff. Yeah, she proves her her stay in the Avengers for sure.

SPEAKER_09 4:16:32

Yes, and I know that they have stunt doubles for all these things, and oh yeah, of course, but you gotta give it to Scarlett Johansson for being willing to learn enough of this and carry this type of character on for so many years. Yeah, I think she's done a lot.

SPEAKER_03 4:16:48

I know she didn't do all of her own stunts, but yeah, she has done quite a few though. Yeah like she is she has gotten her hands pretty dirty when it comes down to doing these stunts.

SPEAKER_09 4:16:56

So yeah, no, she yeah, I agree. She's she's done she's very well handled in this movie, and I I uh completely echo your sentiment that I think this is the best she's ever done as Black Widow. Yeah, I mean we do get great moments later, I don't want to take away from what we get, but exactly but this is some of the best stuff movie. I mean, this she this is black dripping with the Black Widow from the comics that everyone loved of Black Widow.

SPEAKER_01 4:17:24

So interesting.

SPEAKER_09 4:17:26

Yeah, and like I said in the very beginning of this um retrospective, this is my hot take in Iron Man 2, guys, was that I would have cast someone different as Black Widow, not that she was bad, but you know, I just had someone else in mind. This movie corrected that for me with the performance of Scarlett Joy Hanson was able to do it.

SPEAKER_03 4:17:44

Yes, yeah. If they didn't do this, I'd feel the same way. Yeah, but now that we've gotten this, it's like, oh, that's why she works.

SPEAKER_09 4:17:51

I wasn't wanted any other way.

SPEAKER_03 4:17:52

Yeah, I wouldn't change her if they asked me to. Yeah.

SPEAKER_09 4:17:54

All right. Jeremy Renner as Hawkeye.

SPEAKER_03 4:17:57

So Jeremy Renner, I mean, yeah, this is great. This is probably some of the best Hawkeye we get, too, to be honest. I mean, uh, he's so good in this. Like, once he's able to be the good guy again, finally, and I it makes up for it. Because like you think sometimes with that spot, you think, oh, he's the bad guy most of the movie, and then he's the good guy towards the end. You don't really get a lot, but they still gave him enough. And his superpower is real silly, you know, he just doesn't miss things, he's not even looking at some of them and say, Okay, come on, guy. You know, like so is it a superpower? Like, but it is, right? Like, he's technically she's the only one that doesn't have a superpower, right? Because you're not telling me this guy's making these arrow shots like that, and there's not some sort of extra, extra like sense going on, right? There's got to be because it's impossible. Impossible.

SPEAKER_09 4:18:50

Uh you know, it's funny when people think of Hawkeye and then they think of like DC's green arrow, they're basically the the same, just in two different. I would say that this hawkeye has more validity for saying he has superpowers compared to Green Arrow. I mean, it's gotta be.

SPEAKER_03 4:19:08

It's gotta be, right? I mean, it is it's unsaid, really. Because she she doesn't have any superpowers, and it's clear she doesn't. But come on, look at so many shots this guy's making. Like, no, dude, I don't care. Because even in Daredevil, he's got superpowers, you know what I mean? Bullseye.

SPEAKER_09 4:19:24

So, like, come on, like this is like that would be now that would be a battle I would want to see.

SPEAKER_03 4:19:30

Hawkeye wins, look what Hawkeye does. Doesn't even have to look.

SPEAKER_09 4:19:33

Oh, some of the things that bullseye does. It's like, oh, I don't know. He'd give him a run for his money.

SPEAKER_00 4:19:38

Hawkeye, yeah, I guess.

SPEAKER_09 4:19:41

Hawkeye could do great with a bow and arrow, but bullseye could do great with anything you could do.

SPEAKER_03 4:19:46

Yeah, I think that's what uh what might what what Hawkeye might have over bullseye, bullseye, but uh over bullseye though, is you take away something to throw at each other, I think Hawkeye whoops his butt.

SPEAKER_06 4:19:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:19:57

Physically.

SPEAKER_06 4:19:59

Yeah. I think Hawkeye whoops Daredevil's butt physically, yes. I think Hawkeye could take Daredevil.

SPEAKER_10 4:20:06

That's a strong statement.

SPEAKER_00 4:20:08

I think he could. I think it'll come down to it, let it happen, and see where it goes. Hawkeye comes out in the end.

SPEAKER_03 4:20:15

Because Hawkeye would take that that weakness he's got and go right against it.

SPEAKER_09 4:20:21

Yeah. So the um the next person would be Mark Ruff. Oh wait a minute. Actually, I'm gonna say one more thing before we uh jump into the Hawk there. Um when I was thinking about Hawkeye in this movie, and I was thinking it's quite a shame that like 70% of the movie he's brainwashed, but I think it plays to a strong suit about Hawkeye himself that if it's him against the Avengers, he holds his his hand pretty well against some of these characters. Oh yeah. Now, granted, he's not going face to face with the Hulk and face to face with a couple of them, but strategically, knowing what to do to distract someone so he can do something else here and smart and all that, he's if anything, it proved he I I wouldn't say he can take on the rest of the Avengers, but he has a standing fighting chance at least. And that was that's really cool in a retrospective way of thinking that wow, Hawkeye, he's really that that great of a uh character in that regard. Yeah. But anyways, the move on from him. Mark Rufflow as the Hulk.

SPEAKER_03 4:21:30

Yeah, um, this is this what we got is great. You know, I like their first meeting, uh his the dialogue that they have when they're on the helicarias good. Yeah, I will say that this is better than what we'd have gotten from Edward Norton. And and that's not saying anything bad to Edward Norton, because I think he's a phenomenal actor. I just don't think he would have given the seriousness that this character needs in this type of movie. And and I think Mark Ruffalo t gives everything he does, he goes a hundred percent a lot, and it really shows. Um, and to be honest with you, I think that's why it worked between him and Tony so much because him and Downey are so good of actors, because Mark Ruffalo might arguably be the best actor that is like a mainstay on the MCU. When I say mainstay, I mean like the one that's already occurring. Yeah, he's probably the better actor out of all of them. He's made probably the best stuff outside of the MCU than any of them have. Um because he really is. I mean, I don't know if we've seen a lot of his stuff, but there's a lot of things in him that he's just really good. Um and I and it shows, you know, he he's kind of one of those actors that brings that little bit of gravitas to it too, that is a bigger part, you know. I just wish his character had better writing for it, or like at least direction. Because the writing for his character usually is pretty good. It's the direction of his character that we're still kind of like, oh, the Hulk is kind of just it just works when it works, right? But no, yeah, I think for Mark Ruffalo coming in, though, I think was smart, probably one of the best recastings, to be honest. And and I didn't even think about it, you know, very much like with Roadie before. You didn't even have to think about it, it just works.

SPEAKER_09 4:23:23

I completely agree. Yeah, I I echo everything you just said, really. I put on here that um both as Bruce and as the Hulk, I think Mark Ruffalo fits the role so much better.

SPEAKER_03 4:23:35

You know, that brings a question up.

SPEAKER_10 4:23:37

Just a quick little sidebar. Where is Roadie? You know, that is a very good question. All this stuff is going on in the first Avengers movie, and Roadie's not present.

SPEAKER_06 4:23:51

Like, where is the one?

SPEAKER_10 4:24:00

Out there in the interwebs has an answer to this, please leave in the comments below.

SPEAKER_09 4:24:04

We will read it and we want to know.

SPEAKER_03 4:24:06

Isn't that interesting though? Do you think about it? Like I can't think of is there anything in this movie that says anything about where he is? And what's the last of him we know of would be in Iron Man 2?

SPEAKER_06 4:24:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_09 4:24:17

I mean, he shows up in Avengers Days of Ultron, so it's not like he's MIA there.

SPEAKER_03 4:24:22

Right. And I mean, and arguably he might not have a suit because of the at the end of Iron Man 2. Tony could have taken it back. But he could have suited up with them, right?

SPEAKER_09 4:24:31

Yeah. I mean, he at least could have been, I mean, they had Pepper in this movie. He could have been at least one of those characters to have shown up and maybe been with her or uh some sort of explanation. Well, he just not even mentioned it.

SPEAKER_03 4:24:43

Could have some good banter between him and Sam Jackson could have been fun. Yep. He could have at least been on the helicarrier.

SPEAKER_09 4:24:49

That is a very good question. Yeah, what happened there? I'm glad you're glad you brought that up because I didn't even think about that.

SPEAKER_03 4:24:56

Maybe it's just they just like as one too many characters, I guess.

SPEAKER_09 4:24:58

You know what? Where's Betty Ross? No, just kidding.

SPEAKER_02 4:25:03

She should have been right there.

SPEAKER_03 4:25:05

Gosh darn it. She should have been the one that's showing up and got Bruce.

SPEAKER_02 4:25:11

Amen. Okay. Um, Tom Hiddleston as Loki.

SPEAKER_03 4:25:16

Phenomenal, man.

SPEAKER_02 4:25:17

What a great performance.

SPEAKER_03 4:25:18

Like I alluded to earlier. He this cements him as one of the best villains that the MCU has. And while you kind of can't get rid of him. Yeah. Like we can eventually, and we will, to a degree.

SPEAKER_09 4:25:33

But he's he's got this villainy in him in this movie of like a comic, a traditional comic book villain, but yet you take him seriously.

SPEAKER_06 4:25:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_09 4:25:42

Like he it's just such a great performance of how he's able to balance both of it. He's not too over-the-top, mustache twirly, but at the same time, he pretty much is just like, I want to be the god to this whole world. So that's what this is why I'm doing it. It's so cool.

SPEAKER_03 4:25:59

That scene with between him and Black Widow when he goes into his whole thing there. Wow. Wow, wow, wow. Yeah, I can't get over it.

SPEAKER_09 4:26:09

Alright, now we're gonna get to this is gonna be one of the harder parts of our character deep dives that we do for every film. The best performance of the film.

SPEAKER_10 4:26:22

This is gonna be very hard. Who would you say? In your personal opinion.

SPEAKER_03 4:26:30

I'm gonna go with Tom Hiddleston. I'm gonna give it to him. I think I'm I don't know how much I can hit home on just that one scene. It's just when you watch it, it's it's riveting. And you're like, whoa. This could be any kind of movie. This this could be anything he's doing, and it's it doesn't matter. It's just what he says, how he says it, the way he looks, his demeanor, all of that. And I think it he consistently brings that from beginning to end of this movie. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 4:27:02

Believe it or not, I'm gonna have to give it to him.

SPEAKER_10 4:27:05

So I I had a hard time figuring this out too.

SPEAKER_09 4:27:10

Because I did like Tom Hillson's performance, but also I was looking at Mark Rufflow and Scarlett Johansson because they're so good, and honestly, I don't know if um Scarlett Johansson personally has another better performance in the MCU outside of this, so I'm gonna give it to her for this. Um because I know Mark Rufflow had has more chances. She's my second, by the way. Yeah, I it was it was so it's so hard for me to think about who because by the way, guys, you if any of you actors are watching, you all did so good. Yeah, yeah, so like oh yeah, Scarl Johansson. I'm gonna say he's my best performance.

SPEAKER_03 4:27:52

Yeah, good choice.

SPEAKER_09 4:27:53

All right, most surprising performance.

SPEAKER_03 4:27:55

That's gonna go to Mark Ruffalo. Yeah, I'm very surprised at how well it worked, the chemistry he has with anybody he reacted with, specifically him and Robert, really pulled that off. And and it's funny, smart, still serious, and Mark did very good in those moments where you can see the edge like coming, especially in the helic area. He grabs the scepter and he's saying things, and then later when he's starting to turn, I think he did a great job. And I think the mocap work he did with Hulk is fantastic.

SPEAKER_09 4:28:23

Oh, very good. The the Hulk is definitely a huge step up in this film. 100% the incredible Hulk. Yes, totally. Um, my most surprising performance, I'm probably gonna have to give it to Mark Ruffalo as a Hulk as well.

SPEAKER_03 4:28:35

Yeah. Because it just it was And he's a newcomer in surprises.

SPEAKER_06 4:28:39

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 4:28:40

So yeah, I agree. Yeah. All right, weakest performance. So yeah, Chris Emsworth. Uh it's I but it's once again, it's it's knowing what's coming made this more apparently dull. I'm like, oof. And like everything that he did get that was good was kind of a repetitive nature of Loki, Loki, Loki. And he's like, okay, I get it. It did real well, but it was like you didn't they definitely struggled with what they wanted to do with him in this. And where where he had highlights and he was fantastic, I like I said, when I say weakest performance, you're still talking about excellent performance. It's just out of this group, this was the weakest one. But once again, most of the time you hear me say this a lot, especially when it comes down to the MCU. It's more the writing for him than it was him himself, you know. Although, I will say, if he could have been a little sillier, like we got later on in the MCU, it may have not felt that way this time. But it did point out, I did realize there was an overhaul of him, which makes me interested when we get into Thor too. If I'm gonna feel that exact same way, but see, jumping back into that world, I might not, because where he acted in this in that world really works. But like in in this world, he needed to be a little more, you know, adjustable, and it didn't it didn't seem that way. But I've got a serious Thor. Like, I think Thor changes the more he hangs out with different groups of people. That's true. Yeah, I guess he becomes more like the people he's around because he's just hanging out. So like part of me is jumping the gun on that when I say he's the weakest, but maybe it is a character-driven thing too. But just for me, when I'm watching it, it's like his his stuff is the most uninteresting in the long run, I guess.

SPEAKER_09 4:30:20

Yeah. Uh weakest performance I put as Dr. Eric Selvig. Okay. So, like, I guess if I had to say the weakest performance of the Avengers, I probably would say Thor too. Just because I uh it was I think they had a hard time in this movie of how do we introduce Thor, how do we make him part of the team? He seemed he seemed more like a fish out of water in the movie, but I think that's just because I don't know if the writers knew how to put him into it. Whereas um Eric Salvik, I did like I like I said, I liked Thor. So and I actually kind of like this type of Norse mythology one. So I'm giving him those brownie points there because I don't mind seeing that continue on as long as I add maybe add a touch more of the funny, I'll give you guys that. But for me, um I don't mind this version of Thor too much. But I can see why Chris Hemsworth himself personally was like, Yeah, I'm a naturally funny guy, let me play up to that. And it did work out well for him, to be honest, when they made this the change. But um, I also wasn't one of those people that was saying, Oh, we need to change him because he's too dull for me. So, anyways, that's just me though. Okay, um, yeah, casting wins or misses for you.

SPEAKER_03 4:31:43

I I think that's across the board there's no misses.

SPEAKER_09 4:31:45

No, no, I agree, no misses at all.

SPEAKER_03 4:31:48

I can't think of anyone that could play. I mean, I mean, maybe there's a couple actors or characters here and there where any Joe Schmoe could have been in there, I guess, but I I mean Selvick is the only one when you said his name, I almost forgot he's in the movie. Exactly. As little he's in it. So it's almost so incomprehensible, it almost didn't matter. So it's like, yeah, I don't I I can't think of anybody I wouldn't put in these parts, you know? Yeah. So which means it's all win all the way around.

SPEAKER_09 4:32:17

Exactly. Yeah, the the only if I had to write down names, I'm gonna put the two newest actors to the MCU, Mark Rufflow and Kobe Smallers. They were great castings.

SPEAKER_00 4:32:26

Yeah, great, yeah.

SPEAKER_09 4:32:26

Yeah. There's nothing about it that made me think, oh, they shouldn't have been there, you know? Yeah. Like alright. Uh missed opportunities or wasted potentials of the cast, or even uh I don't know if we should say the story yet, because we're gonna get into that next. But the cast.

SPEAKER_06 4:32:43

Yeah, you know, I don't I don't uh Thor's my big one.

SPEAKER_03 4:32:49

I do I do strongly as I have it written down. It I I wish I just wish there was a little more there. I w when we it's more apparent when you get to the fighting scenes in the city. When you're like, mm, Thor's just kind of there. You know, that that's kind of that's I think that's how I feel about it. So it's a missed opportunity, I think. Yeah. Maybe some wasted potential where that could have went. I can agree to that. And I and and and I think that kind of adds into like with them with the Hulk smashing Loki around, kind of makes me feel like there's a wasted opportunity for a good scene of them taking him down themselves together. But it's just the Hulk kind of goes and does it and ends up being a silly scene. I I don't I think I would have traded that silly scene in for like a scene where Loki is trying to fight them and he just gets overpowered personally. So that yeah.

SPEAKER_09 4:33:41

Uh I didn't have anything written down for this one. I didn't think there was character-wise, at least, I didn't find there was any wasted potential for that part. But I do agree to your sentiments of Thor. That they could have, had they changed his personality, Justice Smidge, maybe they could have done some more stuff with him to make him more part of it. But like I said too, I think that one of the strong suits about the Avengers and kind of what we talked about in the history of the movie, is that all these characters are so different, but yet they'll come together. So I kind of like that Thor might seem like a sore thumbs being stuck out there, but obviously he is a god of all of them, so it's like I kind of would have expected that a little bit from someone like him. And this is he is very new. This is his second time to Earth, so I'm gonna give him the benefit of the doubt. I love your theory, honestly. I love your theory that the more he spends time with these characters, the more he draws off of their and he's not doing it in a fake way, he's doing it as in a relatable way.

SPEAKER_03 4:34:43

Yeah, well, it all kind of stems for his his problem, which is fitting in in general. Yeah, actually, like he always has that problem, and even at back at home, you know what I mean? Like they when they make him a little sillier and ragn't rock and on, Thor's kind of like, where do I belong? Yeah, so he's kind of trying to be like everybody, and yeah. I get that, yeah.

SPEAKER_09 4:35:02

So I kind of like that, anyways. All right, now guys, we're gonna get into some scene deep dives. This is where we're gonna touch upon any scene in the movie that we want to expand more on if we have any, and then talk about what our favorite ones are and things like that. So, um, we have a list here. Um choose a couple of these scenes. If we've already talked about them, obviously we won't talk about them again, but I just wrote down some that um come to my brain, and I we can expand upon some of this. Um so I'll just start off with one that comes to my head, uh at least, is Loki taking out that eye.

SPEAKER_03 4:35:43

Yeah, let's talk about that. That's one we haven't really talked about a lot.

SPEAKER_09 4:35:46

Yeah, we haven't. We really haven't talked about that scene too much in general, but it's very it's it's well it's simple, but well done simple.

SPEAKER_05 4:35:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_09 4:35:55

And talk about an entrance, Loki walking in there, grabbing the guy that they need, throwing him on that table, and just merciful mercilessly, if I could say that word, viciously taking that eye, and it's like, dude. Yeah, what a jerk, man.

SPEAKER_07 4:36:12

You could have just taken a picture. Yeah, yeah. Like the whole eyeball?

SPEAKER_09 4:36:19

Oh, yeah. Talk about the technology, they're able to show that. That's kind of cool, but still, that poor man, that would have been how Fury lost his eye. No, just kidding. Um, it's a cat, space cat.

SPEAKER_06 4:36:35

Space cat.

SPEAKER_09 4:36:37

The flirting. Anyways, um, no, that is a that is a cool scene. I actually think not just Loki taking the eye, this is that whole scene of him saying, Bow to me, and he's do the um his scepter smashing on the ground, making a ripple, then he duplicates himself all over, holograms himself all over, and says, Neil! It's like yeah, that's that's so cool. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:37:01

Very, very intimidating.

SPEAKER_09 4:37:02

Yeah, and what I love is the older man standing up and just a reminder of because Loki's giving this big grand speech of you're all made to be served. Like this is such an arrogant SOB. And this older gentleman just stands up and it's like, yeah, and then it just is reminiscent to me of the Captain America movie they watch where 100% you Captain America's fighting up against someone who's kind of in that same mindset of I'm gonna rule the world type of thing. But like, no, we stood up to you, and we're gonna stand up to this bully too, right? So, anyways, that this is a good scene. Yeah, no, I agree. It's like, miss me, Natasha. But of course, yeah, of course, of course, yeah. Anyways, uh, so um, is there any scene that you wanted to expand the possibility?

SPEAKER_03 4:38:00

Well, I was looking here, we kind of covered a lot of these real well. Um I will say we can talk a little bit about the circle team shot there you got written down because it I think that also encompasses like the the rest of that that goes on like after they start fighting, like shows another like really cool shot where they go from one character to the next of what they're doing. I think it's real smart, you know. And I think this looks real good. This is a great moment in the movie when they all have this second, you know. Do you think I think the only thing I want to touch on is do you think they wasted that opportunity to say Avengers Assemble right there and they should have and not wait until we get to endgame? Or do you think it's brilliant that they waited until they got to their climax of the entire saga?

SPEAKER_09 4:38:46

I think for me, I think it's brilliant. I do too. This is this is where I come out for that. In this movie, I don't see where saying Avengers Assemble would have been a natural fit because they're still trying to become Avengers. I like that the end of H Voltron, he says Avengers, and then the cuts to black. It's like, oh, and I think they did that on purpose. And you even see in the bloopers when they do it. Ah then Black Will jumps in the back thing. I think I think they're doing that on purpose because they realize, oh, he never said in the first movie, we're gonna tease it in the second one, and when he does say it, we're gonna make it a major movement. And so when we as fans in the theaters for Endgame, we're gonna do the same thing, guys, in September when it gets re-released, when we're in the theaters, we're gonna be like, Oh, when he doesn't again, just because it's such an epic scene, an epic line.

SPEAKER_07 4:39:37

Be like, finally, we got it.

SPEAKER_03 4:39:39

Yeah, I'll never give over him saying assemble in Thor just being like, like Thor just gives out the biggest Viking yell.

SPEAKER_07 4:39:47

You're like, I could have waited a moment.

SPEAKER_03 4:39:50

He just goes insane. Like Thor's like, I'm ready, buddy. I'm waiting for me to hear, yeah. Yeah, in the second part to that question, how long do you think it took them to tell Josh we know you can't do that? Because I have a feeling that there were some talks about come on, guys. Oh, saying that yeah, because this is a first there, their first movie, they're all right there. If you really thought about it, I will even admit, as a writer, I may have even been like, This is when we're gonna say this, right? This is when we say it. And it would, and honestly, if you think about it, it'd be great in that moment. But I would put money on he's like, please, and they're like, No. Who made that creative decision you think finalized? Because I don't think that would have been a popular decision at the time to make him not say it. Probably not, you know.

SPEAKER_09 4:40:38

I if if it's not Josh Whedon singing no, I think uh the book usually stops with Kevin Vige on a lot, especially these earlier projects.

SPEAKER_03 4:40:47

So do you think Kevin had the foresight then to be like, let's save this? Because I mean, to be honest with you, what if the movie bombed and they never had a chance to say it?

SPEAKER_09 4:40:56

I mean, well, my my personal feeling is I don't think it even came up. I think if anything, the writers were talking amongst themselves when they're writing this stuff and they're like, this is just not a necess necessity. Really? Wow. I don't I mean, if if I look up an interview and please internet correct me if I'm wrong, but if you send me a link, send me stuff that says Josh Whedon was thinking it, or so and so was debating on putting it in, or all that stuff, because I haven't heard anything.

SPEAKER_03 4:41:24

So maybe it did become a thing until it wasn't said. Exactly. And then they realized they're talking about this, which means we gotta we gotta tease this.

SPEAKER_09 4:41:30

Yes. That I feel like it's more of the fans were saying that he's never said it. And then they're like, That's important to them. Yeah, we should we should put this in. And obviously, I see Josh Wheaton as the type of person that would put that in, but I don't think it dawned on them because of how serious they're trying to take this movie to be to throw up the tagline. They're already being a little corny to a degree on a couple things like Yes, I was just about to say that. Or even Steve looking at him saying, Hulk, smash. Be like, that is corny, guys, but it works.

SPEAKER_03 4:42:00

Almost doesn't work, almost. But yeah.

SPEAKER_09 4:42:02

So it worked because Hulk gave a grin. Yeah. Anyways, and it just looks so good. But yeah. Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. But I will not be surprised that they said, you know what, we didn't think about that to the second movie. Then we're like, well, we'll just wait.

SPEAKER_03 4:42:15

You'll have to wait for like the 10-hour special behind-the-scenes documentary of the entire saga, you know, when they I love that someday when this all filters out and fades into like, you know, they're okay kind of movies, they'll do like this HBO 10-hour special of behind the scenes of everything we've never known, you know, all the deep secrets like 50 years from now.

SPEAKER_09 4:42:36

And any other scene that well, I've I really do feel like as I'm reading through this, we talked about everyone.

SPEAKER_03 4:42:41

These scenes are yeah, I thought that would be a fun one to at least ask about. Um, but yeah, I I think I'm pretty well set on I I can't think of a scene. I'm trying to think of a scene in the top of my head right now that we didn't really discuss too much. I mean, we didn't really talk about the sword fight too much with Hulk, but there wasn't much to talk about. It was just a lot of fun.

SPEAKER_06 4:42:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:42:59

Um, a good choice to do it. I'm glad they did that. Um, I will have to say she's lucky as hell he never caught her because oh my god, he was yeah, and how he didn't catch her, uh, it might be a little unbelievable, but it works. That she had a limp, like that shot of her running though, and him behind her. That's so good. The whole coming, like it's so good.

SPEAKER_09 4:43:20

That is probably one of the best visual scenes. Uh I will say this is so good.

SPEAKER_03 4:43:26

Yeah, it was done very well, that's for sure.

SPEAKER_09 4:43:28

Yeah. I you know, it's funny, it almost when I first re-watched it, it almost reminded me of when Pepper was running in the first Iron Man movie that Obadiah was. Oh, 100%. Yeah. But this one works so much better. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Anyways, um, so this is just a question that we threw in there about the greater MCU impact. Um, does did this prove that there a cinematic universe can work? And how much does this set up for future installments of the franchise? We've talked about the future installments parts because uh it already throughout this thing, but it does prove yeah this and look at if you if you disagree or you're not sure, look at the critics' ratings and the audience ratings. 90s, yeah, they're in their 90s, just like how long June Jackman's gonna be playing Wolverine, it's in his 90s, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:44:22

Or or how long Ian McCullum has proved you can do it. Like, yeah, it's all right, he would start taking notes because Ian just set the bar high.

SPEAKER_08 4:44:30

Oh, yeah, my.

SPEAKER_03 4:44:31

Which this movie does too. Set I think this movie sets the bar on these movies now. Yeah, I think this movie was as much of a success as it was for them for Marvel. I think they also put them in a corner. Yeah. And the corner put them in is we're not going to be able to get away with anything that we we kind of made mistakes on.

SPEAKER_06 4:44:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:44:50

If any, like no matter how successful the previous movies were, they know now we can't go backwards. Like we need to up everything. Which is, I think, why we got such a different kind of movie in Iron Man 3, which we'll discuss next time. But we'll we'll discuss it because we're gonna have to, because I I know your issues with a lot of it, and you know some of mine. But there is there is something that's happening, which I understand why they took the swing because they knew they couldn't look back. Is we need to go bigger and bigger and bigger, which is why we start getting Guardians of the Galaxy and stuff because they start taking more risk. Yeah, because this movie made that bar higher, because it not only proved it can be done, but now it's like people are almost gonna expect this. I mean, they they get the idea that we're not gonna get another big one like this until Avengers title is on it. But you can't be as dull as you know, the Incredible Hulk. Yeah. Again, you can't do that, you can't get away with that. And we see in some others they almost are, and it's like and they realize okay, we gotta upper game, we got an upper game, we got an upper game. So yeah, it really set the bar going forward for a long time.

SPEAKER_09 4:45:55

Well, dare I say this, but when the question of does this The cinematic universes can work. This movie w should rightfully so go down in history as yes, they they can work, and showing studio executives more than anyone else that when you have IP like this and the right vision and the right people at the helm, you can make it work. If it wasn't for the success of this movie, I don't think we would have gone days of future past the way that we did. Because this movie came out one year after first class, which they announced was a soft reboot of the M of the X-Men. And then three years later, you get Days of Future Pass in 2014, which is two years after this one. So, and I'm not saying that that wouldn't have happened. Maybe it still would have happened to a degree, but no one would have done the Justice League. That the Justice League was specifically told we need to catch up with Marvel, so we're gonna fast track a Justice League movie. And look how that happened, folks. But the the um universal dark universe that they tried to start, yeah. This gave all these studio executives enough of a green light, a bright light, you could say, two green light cinematic universes. That's how we got the Transformers universe as becoming as big a not just a franchise of a three three movies, but actually turning into now uh its own universe. Still going really. Yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean, like you could say that X-Men and Spider-Man started the universe, but to studio executives' minds, they started a trilogy, they didn't start a universe. This this movie proved you could do multiple different things and how they were able to branch off and do other characters and still bring them all back in. Like, like in X-Men, they're able to have enough of guts to do a new mutants movie that's not even related to X-Men, but it's within that universe. I don't think they would have been able to do stuff like that without seeing that this movie could show a proof that you could do a universe.

SPEAKER_03 4:48:02

Yeah, I think X-Men and and uh Spider-Man showing that there's an audience for it, though. Yes. And and I think they just tapped into that audience with this movie. Yeah. And then going forward have made it a much easier to green life. I think we would have still gotten to days of future pass. Um I just don't know if we'd have gotten that version of it. Yeah, I agree. And and I think that they were willing to be more bold because this was really bold. So yeah, I agree.

SPEAKER_09 4:48:30

All right, so um direction and production, the director style. What were your thoughts?

SPEAKER_03 4:48:35

Yeah, I I I like Josh Sweeten, but this is probably his only movie I like a lot. And that's I'm I mean, that's not saying age ultron's worst. I'm just this this this one clearly is better in my opinion. But like, we'll get we'll get there. I don't want to jump the gun too far. But yeah, Josh or Josh, sorry, he I don't know. It's like for me, it's like, how can you do so well in this? And then I watch other movies he's done, and it just they just fall kind of flat, you know? And it made me think that it makes me think that it was like a one trick and it worked this time. And it and it didn't fail all the other times, really, but it definitely like I said, he's not the guy to go into Infinity War and Endgame. Like we so he's a great director. Um, I think that I think he's a great director when he's wrangled in by someone like Feige that's producing over him personally.

SPEAKER_09 4:49:38

Well, I think that that's a common thing for uh the MCU is that you have someone like Kevin Feige that's steering the ship while getting talented directors and producers and writers and things like that. At the end of the day, he's made it very clear to all these people the buck kind of stops with me when you're when you're starting to film or you're starting to release this movie and market this movie is because he is trying to tell a big story. He's trying to be the Stan Lee of the Marvel Cinematic universe. And in order to do that, you need to have your hand in the pot. Even if some directors, like I heard that in Age of Ultron, and we'll get there when we get to that, folks, but Josh Sweden and Kevin Feige didn't see eye to eye on some creative decisions. Yeah, that's what ultimately led Josh Whedon to say he didn't want to return again. I think they have good blood still with each other, but I think it was just saying, okay, I'm I've reached my my time with it with Marvel at the moment.

SPEAKER_03 4:50:33

Yeah, Feige's gotta find that when he finds that sweet spot where you give the parameters to a director and then kind of let them make the movie they're gonna make, I think it tends to be better than not. I mean, obviously, we'll have that as a bigger discussion next next episode because that's probably where he did that the most. Where he's like the needs to end up here, do whatever you want to get there. And I think maybe he's reined it in a little bit because of that movie. But ultimately, though, when you look at all the other stuff, all the other movies and stuff, they they tend to I mean look at the Russos themselves. I mean, you're talking Josh Sweeten was or not Josh Sweet, uh Fuggy was okay with them taking Thor's eye out and Ragnarok and the Russo brothers like, yeah, but we kind of want him to have an eye, so we're just gonna write in that he gets another eye. Yep. And nobody cares. Like we it's it's a beat that happens that we all just kind of go with and we're fine with it. That's a good example, actually. You know, and then and I don't think that's a Fuggy thing. I think that was a director thing. Yeah. And Fuggy just let him have it, you know? And um, I think if you get guys that get it and know what they're making and know what's going on, then you got it. I mean, I think the biggest mistake was they made was bringing Sam Ramighan to it. I thought great director, made some awesome movies, makes great horror movies, truthfully. But you got a guy who's not saturated or gives a crap about this universe who made a good movie with a bad story for this universe. You know, and that's what we're gonna get out of that one. That's a hard movie to like, and it's a hard movie to not like. It's a strange movie. Thank God it's called Doctor Strange. Because it's like, boy, this some of this stuff is cool. And then some, then you're like, this is terrible for the MCU. You know, and I and I think that Fuggy, I think they understand that and they they gotta be careful about that, which is why, guys, we got the Russell's back. It's no, it's no coincidence that we're back where we are.

SPEAKER_08 4:52:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:52:23

Because the all the when you find that right chemistry, how do you not work with them?

SPEAKER_09 4:52:28

You know, hopefully the fans don't turn on him like they've turned on Taika Wa T. Because that that was a turn, and that was uncalled for.

SPEAKER_03 4:52:35

Yeah, but I'm gonna call out fans for that, though. It's the same kind of fans that are like Star Wars fans. They just they turn on their own IP. And you guys are you guys out there that are turning on Taika Wat T D for that. It's you're just it is it's nonsense. It's nonsense. You know, it's like you asked for what you're getting, you got it. You got the same thing in it. You know, you I you can't say Ragnarok is good and Thor of Love and Thunder is not. Sorry, it's the same kind of movie. Maybe you're tired of the jokes. I get it. And I, you know, and okay, everything's subjective. Well, you know, we're gonna we're gonna argue right now. And and that's what I'm telling you.

SPEAKER_09 4:53:14

It's like you just there are beats in Love and Thunder, it doesn't work. 100% when we get to that.

SPEAKER_03 4:53:19

There's some beats in Ragnarok that don't work either.

SPEAKER_09 4:53:22

The overall tone, it is similar to Ragnarok.

SPEAKER_03 4:53:25

So it's kind of like it's like you give them what they want, they complain, you don't give them what they want, they complain. It's like those are the kind of fans that it's it's uh it's the fans that are doing it to the Hulk right now. So we want Savage Hulk back. Yeah, but I remember a time when when is Hulk gonna do something else other than just smash things? So they gave us Smart Hulk and then you complained about it.

SPEAKER_09 4:53:44

You only got Smart Hulk in two projects.

SPEAKER_03 4:53:47

Yeah. It's not like and it was successful in one of them, wildly successful. Yes. I don't care what what any of them say, he's amazing in Endgame. You needed that Hulk for that movie, yeah.

SPEAKER_09 4:53:59

Yeah, you need that version of him as well.

SPEAKER_03 4:54:02

Yeah, you want rage-filled Hulk back? Well, give me a good story with that then that we haven't seen already. Spider-Man. I'm just kidding. Well, that's well, that's just it, right? Like we're gonna he's we're gonna get rage-filled Hulk, and we're gonna be like, oh, we've seen this in how many movies? Every Hulk iteration is him going nuts and doing things except for one or two projects. It's like, come on, guys, give it a shot here. Like, what are we talking about? You know, it's like it they do the same thing to Star Wars. If I was a director, you couldn't pay me enough to make a Star Wars movie. Because it'd ruin your they talk about Ryan Johnson being terrible and like wanting his head up on a cross or whatever. Like, get out of here. Ryan Johnson, you go watch his other movies, they are fantastic. And he still made one of the top three best Star Wars movies out there. Hot take or not, that's the truth about The Last Jedi. But let's move on.

SPEAKER_09 4:54:52

All right. So I've wrote director style, very good.

SPEAKER_03 4:54:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_09 4:54:55

Uh cinematography, excellent.

SPEAKER_03 4:54:57

Yeah, good stuff, especially in the in the fight scenes, all the action. You needed to have someone like I think Josh did a great job at let's go here, let's go here, and let's do that. I like the scenes and it's great.

SPEAKER_09 4:55:07

I agree. For the action, I wrote down that especially great for the character team up moments when they had that. That was a great compliment of how they use their abilities or their powers.

SPEAKER_00 4:55:16

That's right. I agree.

SPEAKER_09 4:55:17

Yeah. CGI quality, very good. Hulk is the biggest improvement. Yeah, it's so good looking. It's fantastic. They've they figured it out and they nailed it. And yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:55:25

That scene when she's running and he's behind her, it's you almost can't tell. It's I'm like, where's this looks real? It's very there's and there's moments where the CGI is okay, obviously it's CGI, especially when you get to the Chichari and all that at the end. Yeah. But and the beam in the sky, you know. But that Hulk stuff, I mean, that means that there's moments where that's some real good stuff.

SPEAKER_09 4:55:46

And like we said before, we even if there is bad CGI, we will we'll forgive it if it's a good story being told around it. And this will have agreed.

SPEAKER_03 4:55:54

I tend to forgive CGI a lot because it's it's you know, it's make believe. Yeah, I'm more harder on CGI in my horror movies than I am in in these kind of movies. Because I expect it in these. You know, in horror, I want practical. Give me practical. That's the stuff that's that's scary. So yeah.

SPEAKER_09 4:56:11

All right. Um, music and score impact.

SPEAKER_08 4:56:15

Finally, we got good music.

SPEAKER_03 4:56:19

What happened? Like, someone's just like, hey, let's actually write a song.

SPEAKER_09 4:56:23

And it's the whole movie, by the way, guys.

SPEAKER_03 4:56:26

So good.

SPEAKER_09 4:56:27

Even if it's not the Avengers theme, it's the other music is noticeably good. Like, it's just it's just it's finally, they finally got the right notes.

SPEAKER_03 4:56:37

And I'll say, even from here on out, it kind of gets better. It does. As we go.

SPEAKER_02 4:56:42

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 4:56:42

There's still a couple flat ones here and there, a couple like eh, don't think about it.

SPEAKER_02 4:56:46

But this is the one.

SPEAKER_03 4:56:47

But this one, now that they have a theme, it's phenomenal. Yep. It's so good.

SPEAKER_09 4:56:53

You know what's good when the theme song strikes a chord inside, gentlemen.

SPEAKER_03 4:56:56

And I can't wait to hear the mix of it with the X-Men theme for Doomsday. You know, like mix it in together. Let's get a real cool remix, you know. Yeah, and I would say X-Men theme, I mean the The Fox movie. The Fox movie X-Men theme.

SPEAKER_09 4:57:10

Yes, they're and I mean their actual theme. You can't tell me they can't do that. Go on YouTube right now and type it. There's mega mixes of mixing them both together. And it's awesome. So well.

SPEAKER_03 4:57:19

That's awesome. Yeah.

SPEAKER_09 4:57:20

Just take one of those, Marvel.

SPEAKER_03 4:57:22

Yeah. Anyways. Keep the 90s one for their new iteration you got coming, that theme for them.

SPEAKER_09 4:57:27

Alright, guys, I promise we are almost done.

SPEAKER_10 4:57:30

We are on to now our hot takes. So, this will be a big thing. Um you want me to do mine first, or you want to do yours first?

SPEAKER_09 4:57:43

My hot take is the Avengers movie didn't define the MCU because it was the best movie. It defined the MCU because it was the first movie to prove the audiences will tolerate a long-form franchise experiment. It is a good movie. I'm not saying it's not a good movie, but in retrospective, of all the other movies we have after it, this is the the tested and true um experiment that worked, that allowed the other movies to happen.

SPEAKER_10 4:58:18

I would call that kind of a hot take.

SPEAKER_03 4:58:22

Okay, I gotcha. I agree. I would say the first hour of this movie is better than the last hour of this movie.

SPEAKER_10 4:58:32

That's a good hot take.

SPEAKER_03 4:58:33

Yeah. I would also say that if this was made today, it'd get a less rating.

SPEAKER_09 4:58:40

I completely agree. Yeah. Because uh no offense to this movie, but if this was made today, it it would feel too cookie-cutter.

SPEAKER_06 4:58:47

Yep.

SPEAKER_09 4:58:48

And it was perfect for the time. Because we needed that to launch these other movies.

SPEAKER_03 4:58:53

Right. But today it would get crap done.

SPEAKER_09 4:58:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:58:56

Yeah. Um I also think I have like a positive hot take. This might be the only Avengers movie with the title of Avengers that you can see without seeing any of the other ones before it.

SPEAKER_08 4:59:12

Oh, I agree.

SPEAKER_03 4:59:13

You don't have to watch Iron Man, Iron Man 2, Thor, or Captain America to watch this movie and like it.

SPEAKER_09 4:59:20

Yeah. I think that was a I think that was creatively done in this movie for broader appeal.

SPEAKER_03 4:59:26

Not that you shouldn't watch them. You should.

SPEAKER_09 4:59:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:59:28

But you don't have to. Like this could be if someone's joining in now, they can be like, this was awesome. I'm gonna go back and watch those.

SPEAKER_06 4:59:36

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 4:59:36

You know, but any Avengers movie after this, you can't you can't do the same with. I don't think you can watch Age of Ultron. Definitely Infinity War and and uh and um uh Endgame. Endgame, thank you. Yeah, those two you definitely can't see without each other or without the ones before it. This one though, you could watch this. You could be like, hey, how do you feel about watching Marvel movies? I haven't seen one. Well, we're gonna go see the Avengers tonight. Yeah, but isn't it them all together? Yeah, let's go try it out. You'd be surprised. And they can go watch it and be and be now be turned on to the ones that came on before.

SPEAKER_02 5:00:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 5:00:12

And and not feel like they missed a beat. Yeah, I completely agree. Yeah. I don't know if that's a hot take, but I feel like it means I think some people would say, you need to. And there's nuances and stuff that obviously you would get if you saw, obviously.

SPEAKER_09 5:00:26

Yeah, the little Easter eggs here that's perfect. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 5:00:29

And you'll actually enjoy the other ones more after seeing this because you'd be like, oh, cool. That's why the guys like that. Yeah. But you could just sit down and watch this movie and not and not know anything going in, and just and it'd be fun and be fine.

SPEAKER_09 5:00:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 5:00:42

And still do its thing.

SPEAKER_09 5:00:44

All right, quick fire questions. Uh, best scene of the movie for you.

SPEAKER_03 5:00:48

Tony and Loki in the tower. I'm I'm just gonna stick by it, guys. I can't it'd be it's either that scene or when he's talking to Black Widow in the the hawk buster thing or whatever. But like I yeah, I think uh I think that that I like I said, if there was ever a you know, the Avengers and our mission statement, it's Tony's speech he gave to him there. Yeah, it's phenomenal.

SPEAKER_09 5:01:11

I'm I'm torn for for this. Uh I initially wrote down the the personality clash scene in the helicarier because I thought that was just a cool mixture of all of them coming together and yeah, it highlights the differences.

SPEAKER_03 5:01:24

I really like that scene too. Yeah.

SPEAKER_09 5:01:26

Yeah, that's good. I also do like the scene of um Natasha recruiting Bruce. I just I just thought that they did that to perfection.

SPEAKER_00 5:01:34

Yeah. So good choices.

SPEAKER_09 5:01:36

Yeah. All right. Least best scene for you.

SPEAKER_03 5:01:39

Yeah, using Colson to get them to all get their heads out of their butts. I just don't it that's the only part of the movie I don't like, guys. Yeah, not Colson's death specifically. But that minute or two afterwards, I'm like, really? This is where we're going? That's how I feel about it. So all right. Mine is low-key arriving. Oh, yeah. No, I see.

SPEAKER_09 5:02:01

Explain it to me.

SPEAKER_03 5:02:02

Yeah, I got you. You got a good yeah, I I just see it.

SPEAKER_09 5:02:05

I'm cool with it coming. I like it. But tell me.

SPEAKER_03 5:02:08

That one line is all you need.

SPEAKER_09 5:02:10

I just need to know how. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe they'll answer that in doomsday. No, they're not gonna. Anyways, um, most punchable. Oh, wait, I'm sorry. Well, I skipped one. Best villain moment.

SPEAKER_03 5:02:20

Yeah, you know mine. It's Loki in the cell when he's talking to Black Widow. Holy moly.

SPEAKER_09 5:02:25

I got one that's a little bit uh not mentioned it this whole time. Yeah, go for it. Loki challenging Thanos' henchman in the moment.

SPEAKER_01 5:02:33

Oh, interesting. Yeah, no, I get that.

SPEAKER_09 5:02:35

Yeah, for me, he already Loki already knows that Thanos is the big boss right there. Yeah. And that he that that's some balls right there to say he said to that thing. Yeah, I agree. I say that thing because who knows what the heck that thing is. Yeah, who knows what that would never see it again, do we?

SPEAKER_03 5:02:51

That's this yeah, mmm. No, I'm with you.

SPEAKER_09 5:02:53

That's a great, that's a yeah, that's a great true to Loki's character, but at the same time, he's really like stepping into territory. He he doesn't really know yet.

SPEAKER_03 5:03:02

Yeah, to be honest with you, it's tough coming up with a bad moment of Loki in this. That's a hard part.

SPEAKER_09 5:03:07

That would be a harder question. That would be a harder question.

SPEAKER_03 5:03:10

Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_09 5:03:11

Most punchable face for you.

SPEAKER_03 5:03:13

Most punchable face for me. I struggled with this this time soon. I got two. Let's go one, one and back and forth. Okay. So I got two as well.

SPEAKER_09 5:03:23

The first one I'll say is Danless's hunchman.

SPEAKER_03 5:03:25

Yeah, punch that thing in the what is it? Just give it a good yeah.

SPEAKER_07 5:03:31

It's a nice little jab. Like, this is not predator.

SPEAKER_03 5:03:35

So my first instinct is those is the UN people. They just need to be punched in the face. Like, just just listen to what he's saying. Like, I know you gave an order.

SPEAKER_08 5:03:45

Give him a stupid ass order. I've chosen to ignore it.

SPEAKER_03 5:03:48

Yeah, but I mean, you know he wants to punch them in the face. And a couple of them just need it. You can tell it's like, really, guy. Really? So yeah, that would those are my first instinct to go to.

SPEAKER_09 5:03:58

My my second was Dr. Selvik, Eric.

SPEAKER_03 5:04:01

Oh, okay. Yeah, see, I didn't not like him enough to punch him in the face. Yeah. There's only one other character that made me kind of feel like, who is this guy? And it's the guy when he does turn to Nick Fury and he says, our uh our navigational systems are down, and Nick kind of gives him that whole. But that guy, when you look at that guy, people go when you go back and look at this, Sammy, and you guys out there when you watch this movie again, look at this guy. His hair, he's got like so much gel in his hair. He's all primed up, like his clothes are a little too small. So like his mouth, and he's just like this dude. Like you're like the navigation guy in this, and the best you can come up with is it's not telling me what to do anymore. So you know Nick Fury wanted to put his foot through his head right then and there. Like it's yeah, that that's the best I got, guys, because this was a this movie did real well at making sure. I mean, I kind of was gonna say the cop that kind of was like, Well, who are you? To cap, you know? But he redeemed himself when he turned around and you know, if he still was cocky, I would have been like, punch that guy in the face. But all right. And then one uh prop you would take home. Man, I'm gonna let you go first.

SPEAKER_09 5:05:06

Tony's bracelets.

SPEAKER_03 5:05:08

Oh, good. Okay, that's nice. That's nice. I got two. That's kind of cool. That's nice. I like that. Wow, I didn't think about that. That's a really good one. This was a tough one to come up with. There's a lot of props, but there also isn't as many as I thought.

SPEAKER_06 5:05:20

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 5:05:20

Because there's a lot of big stuff. And I wanted to be specific to just this movie.

SPEAKER_06 5:05:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 5:05:25

Um, and there's two, and it's funny because one of them is from a scene I don't like, but I want the bloody cards.

SPEAKER_07 5:05:32

Oh, yeah. Okay. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 5:05:35

I think that'd be a cool prop, though. It'd be a cool prop.

SPEAKER_02 5:05:37

That would be a cool prop.

SPEAKER_03 5:05:38

The only other prop I think would be neat would be Hawkeye's arrow with the computer things.

SPEAKER_02 5:05:43

Oh, yeah. That's it.

SPEAKER_03 5:05:43

When he shoots it in and it's like his, you know, his USB arrow, which is arrow. It's a puppet and just and it does his thing. That'd be a cool prop. Like that would be cool. But between those two, I think would be neat. But the cards would be a cool one. I mean, they are I mean, there it's a cool. I mean, I just don't like the scene, guys, but I like the that part of it, I guess. But the the bloody cards would be sick.

SPEAKER_09 5:06:04

All right. So um I'm gonna go out of frame for a moment when I ask this question, so I'm gonna have Ike um asked or answer it first. Um, most underrated moment.

SPEAKER_03 5:06:17

Yeah, um, you know, we talked about it on here, and I know people have talked about this before in other stuff, but I will have to say that the most underrated moment to me is that moment where they do start to kind of fight with each other. I don't think it's talked about enough amongst Marvel fans when we when we hear them talk about this movie or when we go when I watch other retrospectives, and it's that I think that that's a great yeah, and that moment when the scepter, you kind of feel like it's kind of like doing that to him, you know. I I don't think it's talked about enough, I guess.

SPEAKER_09 5:06:47

I put from my most underrated moment is Bruce saying he could control the Hulk's transformation when he says I'm always angry. Yeah, I don't think that gets talked about enough because that shows that you he has a lot more creative liberty for his writing. Yeah, that means in a good way for a potential future Hulk project, you can do some really cool things with that.

SPEAKER_01 5:07:06

Yeah, that's a good one. I like that one.

SPEAKER_09 5:07:07

All right, you're gonna hate me for this next one, but I want you to go first. The most overrated moment.

SPEAKER_03 5:07:12

Yeah, this this whole remember Coulson. Stop buying it, guys. I know it's a recurring thing, but that's the weakest thing about this movie. So when we get to these moments, it's like, yeah, that that is it's that to me is the weakest.

SPEAKER_09 5:07:27

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_10 5:07:28

Most overrated.

SPEAKER_03 5:07:29

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_09 5:07:30

My most overrated moment is the Avengers Circle. Oh, get out of here. It's iconic.

SPEAKER_02 5:07:38

I'm gonna give you that. It's iconic.

SPEAKER_03 5:07:40

So Sam had to leave for a while. I don't know who this guy is and sat back down. That's what happened. He got up and walked away, and a new person walked in here. What are they talking?

SPEAKER_09 5:07:49

What are you talking about? For me, it's cool. It worked, especially for the time when it came out. But I I wrote down I prefer the scene when he's Looking at Loki, and it's the you Loki is also us as an audience, and you see that shot. I like that shot of the Avengers. The circle one, it's nice, it's cool, it's iconic, but to me, I think people hype it up too much.

SPEAKER_03 5:08:13

Oh my goodness. I completely disagree. I think it's a great shot with them. Although although does Hawkeye need to be three inches from his nose and pull back the arrow at full tilt? It's like, God, like, geez, dude.

SPEAKER_08 5:08:33

Talk about intimidating.

SPEAKER_03 5:08:34

If he lets go on accident, Loki's face is going to the floor. But like, I don't know, man. I don't, I don't, I don't think when you get that moment where they're ready to go and they do that circle shot, it's more than cool, man. It is. I it's a statue. It's a statue. You can make a statue out of that. They could. Yeah, I don't want that crap where they look, yeah. Okay. I'm I get I see why you're going there with it.

SPEAKER_09 5:09:01

But yeah. Paul think about it like this. You hear a new song on the radio, it sounds really cool, but then they play it so much you want to cut your ears off. It's like, it's great, it's still a good song, but it's overhyped now.

SPEAKER_03 5:09:20

I don't know. I don't know. All three times I watch this movie, I'm like, hell yeah.

SPEAKER_09 5:09:25

Give it a decade of not watching it, and then watch it and you feel good. But when that's always any montage online you type in of Avengers, you see that scene. It's cool. I give you that. It's iconic. Especially for the first time of them putting them together. I would have done, I would have made that scene still. But over time now, retrospectively, uh I'm done. All right.

SPEAKER_00 5:09:49

My goodness.

SPEAKER_08 5:09:50

Funniest moment for you.

SPEAKER_03 5:09:53

You know, I had a hard time. I'm not gonna sleep well on that.

SPEAKER_08 5:10:03

Oh, the comments that are supposed to be commenting, by the way.

SPEAKER_03 5:10:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 5:10:08

Please. Help for our.

SPEAKER_03 5:10:10

That should have been in your hot takes. Uh I have a hard time between Cap saying, it seems to be run on some type of electricity. I laugh so out loud, out loud. Or when any of the banter between uh Mark Ruffalo and Robert Down Jr.

SPEAKER_09 5:10:32

Yeah, it's a good scene.

SPEAKER_03 5:10:33

Jeez, in those moments when he's just poking at him, like I just I laughed out loud. Like they just get me going, but I gotta pick cap with the electricity thing. That just I just it cracked me up, man. Like it just was like, that's funny. And you know, I love how Tony in that moment like gets it. So he's not like he doesn't like boos his uh his patience with him. He's like, Well, you're not wrong. It's like because Tony could have easily been mean to him about it, but he understands this guy doesn't know that he's like that.

SPEAKER_06 5:10:59

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 5:11:00

So that's why later he's like the red lever to the left who goes, Oh yeah, okay. Like it's like Tony gets it. Like Tony's like, okay, he's patient with him, yeah, even though he kind of hates him because he spent time with his daddy.

SPEAKER_09 5:11:09

It's kind of reminiscent of us when we're calling IT at work, be like, they're explaining all this stuff when we're like in English, yeah, yeah. Like just press the button. You're like, okay, yeah. I have to just like you, and if I have to pick one, I'll tell you what one would be my favorite. But the um when Tony says to Thor, does mother know if you wear it for drapes?

SPEAKER_01 5:11:30

Yeah, it's good.

SPEAKER_09 5:11:31

That is hilarious. Shakespeare in a part thing. Yes, I laughed out loud so much. And then the second one is when Thor says he's my brother, and then Natasha says he killed hundreds of people, then he says he's adopted. Yeah. That is the funny line of Thor in that movie. And actually, both of those lines referred to have Thor part of it. That's right. Um, so if I had to pick between those two, I'd say those mother know if you wear for drapes. I think that's hilarious.

SPEAKER_01 5:11:54

Yeah, it's pretty funny.

SPEAKER_09 5:11:55

Yeah, I can even see that would have been improvised.

SPEAKER_00 5:11:58

Oh, I bet it was.

SPEAKER_09 5:11:59

It just was like we have to keep that.

SPEAKER_03 5:12:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_09 5:12:02

Anyways, most emotional moment for you.

SPEAKER_03 5:12:04

Was Black Widow and Hawkeye after he comes out of his thing. I think in this whole movie, I think that's between them. It gives us that. First of all, we needed it because it solidifies that Hawkeye's not just a character that's joining. He he there was importance to him before, especially with her. And I like, I think, I think they have actually great emotional scenes even going forward. So I picked that scene because that scene uh, you know, it's not the Colson crap. It's that that really was more for me. I enjoyed that scene a lot emotionally.

SPEAKER_09 5:12:36

So I completely agree. I I put that as my favorite, as my emotional scene. Yeah. Alright, our final scores, guys. Oh, here we go.

SPEAKER_10 5:12:45

Oh boy. Okay, so for you, out of two, the story.

SPEAKER_06 5:12:52

So out of two the story in this movie, I'm gonna give it a one. I gave it a two. Characters two. Fantastic.

SPEAKER_10 5:13:11

Action and visuals.

SPEAKER_06 5:13:12

1.5 Okay.

SPEAKER_09 5:13:16

I gave it a two. Emotion and things. Uh I gave that a one.

SPEAKER_06 5:13:22

Okay.

SPEAKER_09 5:13:23

Yep. I agree with you, I gave it a one as well. Yeah. And then rewatchability and MCU impact.

SPEAKER_00 5:13:30

Um, I also gave that a one.

SPEAKER_09 5:13:33

I gave that a two.

SPEAKER_10 5:13:34

It's probably my highest rated for those ones of the whole thing. So let's get ready for our final score of this movie. I gave it a nine out of ten.

SPEAKER_09 5:13:50

I gave it an eight out of ten.

SPEAKER_10 5:13:53

So all right, so that means, guys, it is officially an 8.5 out of 10 for the Goodell Multiverse score.

SPEAKER_09 5:14:06

That's right. And that sounds about right. That sounds pretty good.

SPEAKER_06 5:14:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 5:14:10

Um you don't forget how good a stuff comes later.

SPEAKER_06 5:14:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 5:14:14

That's what that's I I had to I can't but help think that when I was thinking this. Because as much as I enjoyed watching this movie, I realized, yeah, but man, that civil war though. You know what I'm saying? Like right. So it's like, but I can't help but but it is, it was high on my original list that we did when we did this when before we even started this podcast. Yeah. It was already up there, it was already in like my top five anyway. So yeah.

SPEAKER_10 5:14:42

Yeah, it was it was good.

SPEAKER_03 5:14:44

If I'm not mistaken, I think it's John Campia's most favorite uh I think he thinks it's the best superhero movie ever made. I do believe. Yeah.

SPEAKER_09 5:14:56

I thought that was Man of Steel.

SPEAKER_03 5:14:57

I think, well, I think Man of Steel is his favorite Superman movie, but I think he's been on record. I might be wrong, but I know he highly regards Avengers 1. I I'd like to say he says it's the best superhero movie made. I I know Man of Steel is his favorite Superman.

SPEAKER_09 5:15:11

Well, John, if you're watching this, please comment on this.

SPEAKER_03 5:15:13

Yeah, comment John, or at least we'll go back and look at him, hopefully correct that. But I've heard you, I I know I've heard you speak very highly of this, you know, for sure.

SPEAKER_09 5:15:20

But yeah, no, that's a really good, really good movie. I'm gonna skip this post-credit scene final score because we already gave it, and that's kind of irrelevant. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 5:15:28

10 out of 10 for both of us on both of them.

SPEAKER_09 5:15:30

Yeah, yeah. We already said before, so it's like, okay. Final verdict, closing line. If you had to give one sentence as a final review, what we'll just say I I'd say make Thor more funny and some more, please. There you go. I put a great way to fully kick off a cinematic universe proving that ensemble movies work well for fantasy heroes and they should be respected. Very nice. All right. Well, ladies and gentlemen, thank you for staying with us this whole time. If you did, um, we are at the conclusion of episode seven. That's right. The Avengers Retrospective. Um, if you're just watching this as just a segment on YouTube, please go and watch our other uh content. We do need the likes, the subscribes, the algorithm really needs that, guys. Um, Ike, what are we gonna talk about on the next episode?

SPEAKER_03 5:16:21

So, next episode, guys, we'll have some more news for you, maybe some rumor mill stuff. We're not sure yet. Um look out uh for uh another episode of the Dark Dimension that'll be coming out pretty soon here. Um, we did put the first one up. It is up there right now for everybody to see, but um there will be another one coming soon. Uh, check out for our little videos that we do, little side clips that we do. Um we're gonna be doing a deep dive into Daredevil season two, episode seven review. Let's hope you know this goes somewhere for us and does something cool. Um, and our next movie and our next retrospective guys, we're jumping right into Iron Man 3. Oh, yeah. Go back into the world of Tony for another for a couple hours. Yeah. Yep. I think there's a lot of fun stuff about that one we're gonna like.

SPEAKER_09 5:17:09

There's gonna be some stuff to make this kind of dude. Oh yeah. It's I I think what's gonna be interesting for this for that movie in particular is that uh my personal views of that movie have drastically changed since the Shang-Chi movie came out, and I would definitely am gonna do a deep dive into that when we talk about this movie. Um if this was Sam prior to uh 2021 versus the SAM of now, what I would have said because yeah, definitely when you get into it, make sure you tell us because I'm curious to see where you've changed the most. What I might do is I might do two review forms, one of uh pre-Sheng-Chi and another one post-Shang-Chi. Yeah. Just so you could really see the differences. And that's why we like these retrospectives because we know what's gonna happen in the future. So now when we do them, maybe we're a little softer or kinder or a lot more brutal on them. Yeah, so that's true. Look at the hulk. So, ladies and gentlemen, thank you so much for tuning into the Godell Multiverse. And please like, subscribe, download, share, follow us on Instagram, TikTok, and Facebook. And you will catch us next time. See you at the movies.