Ep19 - Black Panther 1 Retrospective with Seven Review

The Goodell Bros discuss the latest news - including X-Men '97 Season 2 Ep5 review, Nova MCU Film Confirmed, and Doomsday Hall H Prep - then get into the rumors - including Scarlett Johanson as Poison Ivy, Secret Wars Pt2, and Indie Neverette & Adan Driver joining the MCU - the dissect a Branchpoint Breakdown special with their mother reviewing Seven (1995), all to end with a full retrospective review of Black Panther 1!

Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:00

On every timeline in every universe, there's one thing that we always talk about. Marvel. Hello, everybody. Welcome to the Goodell Multiverse. I'm Isaiah Goodell. And I'm Sam Goodell. Yeah, we're here today with episode 19, guys. We're retrospective reviewing Black Panther today. We have a great episode for you. I'm going to go ahead and just get right into letting you know what our uh agenda is real fast. And then we'll talk about that for a second. And we have something we want to talk about before we start. So today's agenda, guys, is we got the news of the week, which is going to be our multiverse minute. And we got X-Men, season two, right? X-Men 97, season two, episode five. Interesting one. Got some thoughts on that. Um, and it looks like Marvel may have been listening to our podcast and decided to make that Nova project a movie. Because that's something you said they should do, and I'm glad it looks like it's happening. And uh is Marvel going to uh spoil their whole process for everybody when they get to Hall H, we'll see. And then we're gonna go to the Room and Mill rundown, guys. And so, how grounded is the Batman gonna be? Batman 2, Matt Reeves, I mean, is it gonna be underground or what? Because sounds like there's some crazy things they got planned for that. And is there a secret movie when it comes down to secret wars? I mean, that's a conversation that we're gonna have. And maybe we're gonna get Darth Magneto. We'll have to talk about that when we get there. Very possible, right? Could be a lot of fun, though. Then after that, guys, we have ourselves our branch point breakdown this week, which we ventured into different movies again, like we've said. And this was one we weren't sure if we're gonna do it on my little channel that I or my other little show that I have going on that we haven't done in a little while. Or if we do it on here, but because we like doing it with a guest and it seems like it fits, we're gonna be talking about seven today, guys, 1997. Horror, thriller, uh, drama. We're not quite sure where it's at, right? It's got a lot of stuff going on, but we're gonna talk about that movie. And then our main event, our March to Doomsday retrospective of Black Panther first movie. Boy, that's gonna be a fun one. What do you think, Sam? Think this is gonna be a fun episode, or you got some cool ideas of what's coming or what?

SPEAKER_02 2:15

I am very excited to talk about Black Panther. Yeah. Seven was definitely an interesting movie to watch, so I can't wait to do our retrospective with our special guests, of course, for that. Um yeah, and then well, the the main thing I feel like, other than the Black Panther retrospective that I'm excited for, I'm excited to dive into some of these news things, guys, because this is this is cool. Like you said, we're reviewing the latest X-Men 97 episode, but I really am anticipating talking about the Nova project that's been announced. And of course, preparation for Hall H, which has just exploded within the past like 72 hours of different things that have been coming out and releasing and all that fun stuff. So I'm excited to dive into that with you guys. And the rumors, of course, are always fun to speculate. So yeah, I'm I'm excited. I'm excited for that.

SPEAKER_04 3:06

Yeah, awesome. That's good. That's good. Yeah, me me too. I think it's really neat to see what they got planned. And you know, part of me also, like when we get there, you'll see them wonder telling us too much, but we'll talk about that when we get there. So I think the first thing we want to talk about right off the bat, though, guys, is uh, you know, we try not to be downers on the on this kind of stuff, but I think it's worth talking about, especially since this actor was an actor that has shown up in the Marvel Universe or just has been an actor for a long time that we know. Uh the announcement that Sam Neal had passed away recently um was pretty sad news. You know, it's pretty interesting. Um from what I do understand, he did have blood cancer and he did a come in remission for it. And from the reports that have come out in the last couple days, it sounds like he got a bad case of pneumonia and he hit he wasn't able to come out of it. You know, and I I always thought to myself, after I read that, I thought to myself, oh my, what a thing to basically ward off blood cancer, but then pneumonia gets you. And it's it's sad. Um, it just reminds you that we're all human beings. And even if you're famous and look like you're, you know, or you're rich or whatever, that uh life isn't gonna end for you and it's gonna. So, but it's also sad because you know, he's been in our living rooms as me growing up. I remember stuff like his great role in the Hunt for Red October, um, Event Horizon. I mean, he's got he was with Robin Williams and Bicentennial Man. I mean, he's got some real remember memorable things. But something I take a lot of comfort in, and I'm sure a lot of fans do, and I see a lot of tributes online, is his role in Jurassic Park, you know, and thankfully he was in that first one. And I think that because of that, he's gonna be known and seen by generations of people because that Jurassic Park is the best of its genre, for sure. I mean, I mean it might be one of the top ten best movies ever made, but it's definitely the best of that genre anyway, when it comes down to dinosaur mixed with people, right? You put some ninjas and some laser guns in there, it may have been perfect. But but he's always gonna be seen. There's all my kids have seen it. There's kids now that are young with the new Jurassic World stuff coming out who've gone backwards to seeing the old stuff, see the old stuff. And because it is the best of that series as well, or that franchise, it will always be highly regarded. All those people are gonna live in infany in film history. So 50, 60, 100 years from now, he's gonna still be on somebody's TV somewhere.

SPEAKER_05 5:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 5:38

And that's a cool thing to think about. You know, it's it's much like Jaws of those guys once they're all gone. The same thing. This is that kind of movie that will be replayed constantly. You know, to this day, our drive-in's year has played it. Yeah. Almost every year they play it once, because the beginning part of the year they are movies that have already played, and that's one of them that they just cycle through. It's so it's amazing, you know, to see. And it is sad to see him gone. I feel bad, you know, but a lot of prayers and condolences to his family and all that. So I just wanted to make sure we mention that. You know, he's one of the better actors out there, he's a great method actor. He should have got an Oscar for his role in the Hunt for October. Um, he just sees that he's a fantastic actor that is going to be missed. You know, and I'm glad he got to step back into the Jurassic Park stuff there for a brief moment. You know, even though the movie itself wasn't fantastic, it's not was nice to see him reprise the role, you know.

SPEAKER_02 6:28

So Yeah, I agree. I I completely agree. That was that was shocking to hear that come through my phone when when that happened. So that's um he's he's definitely a legend within the film industry. And I think we we like my brother said, we we mainly talk about Marvel and things like that. Unfortunately, he never was had the chance to be in a Marvel film that I'm aware of.

SPEAKER_04 6:53

Well, he's he is, he's in um Is he store uh Oh that's right, yeah. Yes, he played the um actor who plays Odin. Yes, yeah. Oh yeah, so I mean it's not a big role, it would have he would have done great in like another role of Marvel, sure. Yes, but what a fun small part that he did, you know. Yep. I think he's friends with those people with a group of people that were all buddies, and yeah, and that was that was a good choice. So he did get to dabble in Marvel.

SPEAKER_02 7:19

He yeah, he got he got his Marvel debut. So yeah, no, he'll be greatly missed. Um I also well at the same time, um sh this actor I want to mention uh on this podcast, it she is a Marvel actress that I wanted to pay tribute to. She's not as well known as Sam was um within the film industry, although some may argue that you've seen her and you just didn't know of her because she was this is the this actress that passed away um Wa Ching Ho that you might say, who's that again? But when you Google her and then you see she's she plays Madame Gao in the Netflix uh Daredevil, Iron Fist, and Defenders show. She was uh played a major villain role in uh in the MCU to a degree in that aspect at least. Um and you see her pop up from time to time. Uh she recently passed away at the age of 82 after suffering a stroke a couple days later, she passed away. And uh I just wanted to make sure we gave an honorable mention at least to her for um uh it's sad and it's funny that we're talking about this when we're gonna about to talk about Black Panther, because we're not gonna talk about too much in this film, Chadwick Bozeman's unfortunate end. But uh when we get to Black Panther 2, we really are gonna talk about it because I feel like that event loomed over that whole film. And so this one we're gonna be celebrating him for what he was able to do with this role in his first film here. But um we wanted to give these mentions of these actors and actresses that have passed away within this past week in particular.

SPEAKER_04 9:02

So it's kind of serendipitous that we're it's uh kind of talking about a memorial section here. Yeah. And it happens to be with a movie where we've had an actor pass away in a big wall.

SPEAKER_03 9:11

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 9:11

And it's uh it's sad to see him go too because he's got a unique story behind him that we we're probably not gonna get into today, but we will get into in the next one. Um, but it there's a fun story there that involves Denzel Washington, and I want to bring all that up when we get there. Um so yeah, it's I we I mean in good taste. I was hoping that that would be, you know, a proper time to talk about these things. Yep. And we want to celebrate these people and what they've done for us, you know. So now I think it it's good to talk about it. So other than that, I think we're ready to get on with this episode and have a good time, have some laughs. Let's enjoy this movie for what it is and talk about it and all the fun stuff in between.

SPEAKER_02 9:53

Yeah, I completely agree. Celebrate life, guys. So sometimes it could be shorter than you think. So uh watch Jurassic Park this week, guys, and just remember, you know. Yeah, yeah, I completely agree. And now celebrate with us as we get into the multiverse minute. All right, guys, welcome to the multiverse minute section of the Goodell Multiverse podcast, and we are gonna start things off with X-Men 97, season two, episode five review. The episode was called Weapon X Lies and DVDs, where Wolverine, Morph, and a ragtag team of old rivals confront Weapon X's latest experiment. So, what did you think about this episode? Ike.

SPEAKER_04 10:42

So I only had a chance to watch it once, and I was a little distracted, but I did watch it. And I don't want you to think that I have a bad thought of it because of that. I will say this was a little bit more of a different episode than what we just got done watching. Because after we watched Magneto get killed, it's kind of like, where do you go now? Yeah. Right. And I think this episode was definitely kind of a good filler feeling kind of an episode. Um I like that it dives again into some Wolverine stuff and some Weapon X stuff. I'm not so sure I'm a fan of the idea that they are implying that part of his mentality and the way that he is is also something they tampered with. I kind of like the idea that he's always been Logan the way he is, and then just messing around with the anamentium and his bones because of his mutant ability is what they did before. So they they are touching and playing around with it a little more than I kind of want them to. I don't even feel like it's necessary they had to. I gotta be honest, I think we live in a time where maybe not for the new X-Men movies coming out from Marvel in the future, but for at least this cartoon version of it. I think we live in a time where we can kind of put some closure to the Wolverine thing. Not him completely, but let's do different with him and stop looking back at that event and move on from it. And they do partially in this kind of do that, but they also keep building it's like he's like he walks away with more questions than answers again. And part of me is like, okay, at some point there's only so many secrets, so let's just and and it's gonna get a little unbelievable at some point. Um is still a problem for me. I I struggle listening to him. You know, it's like I just yeah, I feel like he's the only character in this that makes me feel like it's modern, and I still don't like that. Everybody else who I like, you know, Sabretooth looks awesome. You know what I mean? Like I like that look of Saber as much as I like other versions of Sabretooth, maybe better in live action. I still like that look of him. It's all classic.

SPEAKER_05 12:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 12:43

Um Lady Death Strike, this is how she should have been done, as good as X2 is. There definitely was is material there that could have been done better. Uh, but I I still am not gonna fault X2 for what they had done with their version in that medium, you know. Yeah. Um, so at least with the cartoons, at least they're continuing that. So that's good. Yeah, morph just looks like they forgot to color him in, and I just don't like it. So like um, he just looks too modern. It does he looks like a character that doesn't fit in that style that they're trying to do because he's so new looking on purpose, and it's like that's it feels out of place. And and I I guess whatever motivation for that, um it did affect this episode for me. I'm just like every time it's like yeah, really good. And his lines suck. Like when you don't have a character that you're basing it off of, because he's nothing like the original in the cartoon. Yeah, you know what I mean? And it's like you at least all these other guys, you can kind of go back and look and say, well, they gotta have similar you know, candons, you know, and similar behavior. With more if they're just going new and it feels new, and that's the thing I don't like about that. Is I like this feeling like we when did we why did we never watch this when we were kids? Well, that's right, they made this today. And it kind of has that feel that it's like a cartoon we forgot to watch. I like that feeling of it, you know. So sometimes it makes me go when I'm when there's things that you know like that.

SPEAKER_06 14:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 14:02

Other than that, the Wolverine stuff is great. I mean, it's it's cool. You know, I I I've always liked Wolverine. I'm not gonna complain. Um, it just you know, it was a little boring. It was a little, yeah, this is uh maybe we would move on from Wolverine stuff. You know, and I would even argue that when you get to the live action movies, they could not make it as much of a staple as it was in like the old live action ones that we like so much. You know, we don't have to. It can be uh an uh an addressed thing that's only part of a movie and then move on, you know, new stuff with Wolverine. Because I I think by replacing Hugh Jackman, doing new stuff with Wolverine would be a better idea. But, anyways, we're talking about the cartoon today, guys. That's just me my thoughts on Wolverine in general, and this was a very Wolverine-centric cart episode today. So that's my thoughts. It's pretty brief, guys. It was good. Um, I'm gonna watch more. You know, I can't wait to see more. I can't wait to see what their plans are with apocalypse as well. Yeah, because that's clearly gonna come back around and eventually it's all gonna be tied in and whatever they're gonna do.

SPEAKER_02 15:02

So I think that'll be interesting, you know. I I feel like so. My point of view on this episode, and uh forgive me if anyone doesn't like what I'm about to say about it, it is a filler episode, it really is. I think that they used this episode to mainly get Wolverine's claws back after what happened in the first season. And in doing that, they just wanted to tell an episode that reintroduced or brought back classic Wolverine villains, and in doing so basically cut off most of them except Lady Death Strike and Sabretooth. Yeah, yeah, you're right. Which I was a little shocked that they went that far with it, but at the same time, they're probably like, hey, let's give them their time to shine for a moment, and then that's it. I only think the one guy had a time to shine, because I believe the one died after the helicopter crash, like right, so it's almost like okay. But, anyways, regardless, um I I do of these characters, I'm glad the ones they actually kept alive are the ones I like. I like Sabretooth, I like this version of him, and I like Lady Dev Strike, I like this version of her.

SPEAKER_04 16:07

They're both very hard to kill anything.

SPEAKER_02 16:09

Exactly, yes, and they both, those two in particular, I would say more than the others, have a richer history with Wolverine. So um, it's nice that they stayed alive. I do agree with you about the morph thing. I actually wish this episode, I think it would have served the character better had they given him his look from the original, yeah, where he looked more human-like, because I think that would have just fit the X the 97 vibes here.

SPEAKER_04 16:37

Yeah, it's just something about the modernization of him that feels like it when you watch it. Yeah. That bugged me. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:43

Yeah. Uh it's almost like they made him a little too comedic comedical, comical. That one, guys, a little too funny in this iteration of him compared to what we've originally saw of him. And you could argue that when we originally saw him in the very first episode of the original animated show, that's when they, you know, he was taken, experimented on, sinister, all that stuff. So I I I get that, and you can say, Oh, this is what his true personality is. But if that's the case, this is his true personality, he went down on my list as anticipation of seeing more of so um that's probably the nicest way to say it. Other than that, um the episode was okay. I like the concept of the brood taking over the weapon X facility and then using that as their way of like experimenting and making more of themselves. I thought that's very interesting concept. Um, but like I said, I feel like this episode, I didn't learn anything real new about them too much. Or at least I feel like you could easily have skipped this episode to whatever they're doing next, and he just shows up with Ann Mansum Claws, and you don't think much of it.

SPEAKER_05 17:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:57

Honestly. So we'll find out when we get to our next episode. But yeah, yeah, uh, there's nothing to me that sticks out on this as oh, this is the best. It definitely is not like the first four episodes.

SPEAKER_04 18:07

One thing they're still doing in this so far that I do like, you kind of brought it up briefly. I'm just gonna real quick touch on it. Uh, I do like they're willing to kill people though. And some about this animated show, they're just like, well, this story just kills this guy. And it's like, oh my gosh, you know, and we see now obviously the last one, we never would have thought they'd do that with Magneto. And it just happened. It was a whole moly, you know what I mean? Like, so I like that the everybody doesn't feel safe, and I think that's a cool way of doing this. And you can do it in the cartoon like that, you know.

SPEAKER_02 18:36

And I love I love that that that is treated with equal treatment when they killed apocalypse's horseman and they were making a big deal, which Jubilee, get over it. But um the rest of your your friends are dying too. Anyways, um, I like that they're they're going that far because they easily can say, Oh, this is a good show, and we don't want to kill these characters off. Be like, no, I like that them doing it like this means their stakes to what they're doing.

SPEAKER_04 19:01

Yeah, it makes me wonder when we do get to the conclusion of the apocalypse stuff, like who's gonna bite it? Because you're gonna see some wild things go on, I think, you know, and it could be very interesting.

SPEAKER_02 19:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 19:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:12

I agree. Yeah. So that's all I have to say about this episode too. It was okay. It wasn't anything necessary to see.

SPEAKER_04 19:18

I'll keep watching. Oh, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:20

It wasn't like, oh, I don't like how this is going, and we know what's gonna happen next because of this episode. This is, like I said, it's more of a filler episode. And TV shows they have filler episodes. So yeah, there you go, guys. So, question is for you. What do you think of this episode? What would you rate this episode compared to the other ones? Did you like it? Were you one of those people that thought, oh, I needed more of this? Let us know in the comments below. All right, Ike take it away with our next topic.

SPEAKER_04 19:42

All right, guys, next topic this week is it's confirmed by deadline. Loki writer Michael Waldron is officially developing a Nova theatrical film for the MCU. Richard Ryder of the Nova Corpse could be bringing annihilation to the MCU. So I'm gonna be real brief with you. I do not know enough about Nova. And I this week I was like, I when I knew we were doing this, part of me was like, okay, I'm gonna go look a bunch of stuff up, watch a bunch of videos, and get knowledgeable about it. But then the other part of me thought about the dynamic that Sammy and I have. And what I like about that is I don't know a lot about some things, and he does, and it keeps me in a place that might challenge him, and it keeps him in a place that might challenge me. And I think that we're gonna keep it that way. So I'm gonna be honest with you guys, I do not have a lot of information about the Nova Core other than what I've known from the movies so far, and brief talkings and conversations we've had, and Annihilation to me, I could I couldn't tell you almost anything about them. All I can say is you were very excited to say this could have been a better movie than a TV show. And I, since I'm not a Disney Plus fan, and in the sense of they haven't proven that they're consistently good, I'd rather see this as a movie than a TV show. So yes, I this news for me is good because it's another movie, and I think it could be good if it's if they really present this in in something that is really neat, you know, especially in going into the new phase, it's gonna be a whole new MCU. This could be a they could be a very big part of this somehow in some way. And so I I I you know, yeah, this this is good news to me. But that's all I got to say because I gotta tell you guys, I don't know a lot about Nova Cord. You I mean, all I know is that is that they're out there. Like, so it's like so. I mean, there's a little things that we do know from the movies, but that's about it. Yeah. So maybe you can shed some light briefly if you want. Oh, sure. Or at least your thoughts about it, and we can go on from there because later when we talk about any content that comes out of this, I'm gonna be fresh eyes and you're gonna be someone looking for what you know of them. Yeah, and that that has always been like what we like about this.

SPEAKER_02 21:44

So I'll be looking for more specifics to see how they're doing this, but yeah. Yeah. Um, and this is just going off of one specific line that I feel like Nova shines the most in, and he's well known for. And it it's actually his origin story. So uh Like my brother said, I'm I'm not a a supernova, pun intended, fan of Nova, but there and anyone who heard about this news, any comic book fan you ever talked about or talked to, I should say, when they heard about this, their brains immediately went to this too. Um, that's why the end of the tagline there was will he bring be bringing annihilation to the MCU? So Nova, the what we know of the MCU so far is in Guardians of the Galaxy, we're introduced to the Nova Core. That's where Glenn Close shines the best. And um, I actually was kind of disappointed that we never saw them much past, if any, past that, because of some of their rich history that uh, in particular for the character Nova. So Nova is a character, and I know you Comic Book fans are listening to this and watching this on YouTube. Uh, you're gonna know, and you're probably gonna type into the comments right now all that you know about them too. Cool, please do. I love reading your comments. So, Nova, Richard Ryder, he is the last surviving member of the Nova Core. The Nova Core gets wiped out by what they call an annihilation wave. The annihilation wave is put on by the super villain Annihilus, who traditionally is also a Fantastic Four villain, but also he's this big bug guy. I don't know if you ever heard of him or saw pictures of him or anything. Yep. So he's he's a cool, cool villain to be putting into live adaptation, but he also can be very powerful too. And he just craves power and absorbs power, and he kills some pretty major characters in this annihilation one, literally by just absorbing their power. Oh wow. So Nova, he's a surviving member of the Nova Corps, the last one on Xandar, and the there's like this AI that's of the Nova that's there, and it's in his helmet, and it's telling him our number one thing is to preserve the culture of uh Xandar, and he had and abuse him with these extra powers, like a focus is all whatever is left of the energy to give him all these extra powers type things, so he becomes just known as Nova, representing the Nova core, things like that. Uh, he runs into the Guardians of the Galaxy in his thing, in his uh time. Um, actually, that specific comet comic has a lot to do with Drax and him semi-finding his daughter when he never found his daughter, really. It's this weird thing where he thinks he sees his daughter, but it's not his daughter, but she goes along with it just to entertain him. And to be honest, if you compare the Drax from Guardians of the Galaxy film to this comic line, the comic line version, Drax is a lot stupid, I should say. They really play him up to be me as Drax, things like that type of talk and nature. Yeah, a little more kid-friendly, I should say, then. But if they did this and they actually did bring Dave Patissa in as part of this film, so he could be part of the story, um, and then end him in this film, because that's I have a twist on that later on that is not actually in the comic, but I could see for the MCU version, that would be a cool way to end Drax himself. But I'll get there eventually, folks. Maybe I'll do that for one of my Mirror Dimension episodes of like a what this could be type thing. Now that we know this movie's actually coming, I'm a little more excited because if they choose to do Nova's origin, you get the Annihilation Wave. And the Annihilation Wave brings in Galactus, which we know is still alive somewhere in the MCU. All of the Silver Surfers are actually in the Annihilation Wave. Yeah. Yep. Ronan is there, which I know. You're like, eh. Sorry. But he's gone now.

SPEAKER_04 25:38

That's fine. Yeah. We'll change that.

SPEAKER_02 25:41

And then um the the Shiar is part, I think somewhat part of it. I'm not sure the specifics from the top of my head, but the one character Gladiator, who is the yep, he is part of it from the She R. So that ties that in there. And it there's uh he runs Nova eventually runs into Peter Quill, who is at that time with Gamora, and then also not with Gamora at the same time as this on and off relationship, but that could play into a little bit, you know, of the real life stuff or MCU stuff, I should say. Um, so there's a lot of rich history with Nova, the character. And when I've like you said, when I found out that they were thinking about doing this as a TV show on Disney Plus, I was disappointed because his origin is if they said that they're doing this as his origin of Nova, I my excitement for this movie will go up like a hundred percent because that is one of my favorite comic lines they've ever done called The Annihilation or Annihilators, I believe, or an I think it is Annihilation, actually. Something of Annihilate in it. Um, but this easily could be wrapped into Guardians of the Galaxy Volume 4 type style with with a newer roster of Guardians, including Nova as this like a super guardians type thing. Yeah, I feel like that's easily could be Guardians of the Galaxy Volume 4, Annihilation. Yeah, they could just do that, and Nova is just a central character for it.

SPEAKER_04 27:07

Now, am I mistaken that didn't um that culture didn't they get destroyed by Thanos off screen?

SPEAKER_02 27:14

Yes. So what so could that could play a role in it? That's what I think would be really, really cool. Some of the real fun moments of the MCU is when they reference back to big events or tie it in somehow. It doesn't hurt that event, but actually gives more weight to that character and that thing. If Thanos already destroyed Xandar to get that stone, that could be the beginning of Nova.

SPEAKER_04 27:38

Yeah, that makes sense.

SPEAKER_02 27:39

And then as he grows up and years later, he runs into what's left of the Guardians of the Galaxy.

SPEAKER_04 27:44

I like that. It's like going back and you complementing what the past is. Yes. Kind of like my Doctor Strange theory. I think I could fix the MCU with Doctor Strange. And I'm gonna tweak it before I present it on here so it sounds better. But I had it, and it was it was wasn't bad.

SPEAKER_02 27:59

Oh, yeah. No, pretty good, pretty good. And I actually have a whole concept of Guardians of the Galaxy Volume 4 on my laptop that I wrote up like a few months ago, not knowing actually this was actually going to happen, at least this part of it so far that we know of. Um, so I will definitely present that to you guys on a mere dimension episode.

SPEAKER_04 28:16

Hey, with how the what's going on with Supergirl, maybe they can talk James Gunn into coming back and doing it because it's the only way you're getting Dave Batista back. I believe him when he says that.

SPEAKER_02 28:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 28:25

I don't think you will.

SPEAKER_02 28:26

You won't like my pitch because I put Zack Snyder as the director. Just for the visual effects mainly, too. Yeah. But yeah.

SPEAKER_04 28:33

This is visual effects. But I hey I get it, I get you, but I really think I think Batista is He's dead set on just Dames Gunn. I think he is, and I think he has a right to be, and I think he should be, to be honest. Yeah. Well, I definitely think that's I see what you're saying. It's quite exact or good.

SPEAKER_02 28:50

I think Drax deserves a send-off for him, and I don't think volume three of Guardians was a send-off really for him.

SPEAKER_04 28:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:59

So I think that if they if they do this and have him as like a side character and he literally is done doing his thing, which I have a cool twist on that, that I I put in my brain that if I was to do this, I would make him actually be seeing his daughter, but it's not really his daughter, it's actually Lady Def. And come the end of it, she the the death that we saw in Agatha all along. Yeah. And come the end of it, she calls him home and she takes his soul. And that that'd be the end of Drags. Dark ending for Drags. I have a dark ending, but I also like it because like a twist into the pulling at the heartstrings of he finds his daughter, and his daughter's with him this whole time. Then at the end, when he's having his last breath, all of a sudden you don't even realize it. And not a dramatic or tragic ending. He was just gonna die, anyways, but she's been there the whole time, ready to take his soul.

SPEAKER_04 29:49

I mean, it's good, it's dark, it's good.

SPEAKER_02 29:51

Yeah, and you don't even notice it until the very end. You're like, oh my gosh, that was Lady Deaf the whole time.

SPEAKER_04 29:56

Yeah, I'd be good. Anyways, I like what you got. I like what you got.

SPEAKER_02 29:59

Just a thought, just a thought. Anyways, guys, uh, so you heard already a little bit of that, and I'll expand more upon it if I ever do a Mirror Dimension episode on it. But I'm excited. I am surprised that they did an announcement of a new Marvel film one and a half weeks early from San Diego Comic-Con, because I feel like this would be a big thing that they would announce there. But maybe they have something cooking and maybe they're giving more, and this was just their initial let's start launching it. Maybe it was a part of the news cycle they wanted to do. I heard that Michael Waldron, who wrote Loki, is also potentially gonna make his directorial debut with this movie, if that's true. Interesting. I don't know if that's exactly true. I heard that that might be a rumor that might be just out there, but um I and I don't know if I think this is his directorial debut. I don't know if he's done stuff in the past. I just know he's been a writer and he did great with the Loki series writing it. So I'm ex I'm anticipating to see what this could be for a film. Anything you want to add to that before we move on?

SPEAKER_04 30:57

Yeah, I'm mixed on his writing of the Loki series because the Loki series really threw me for a loop. So I liked it at first until I realized what they're doing with those shows, and then then it just made me more confused. Then there's things in it. I what I what I think is the positive is he writes characters real well, so I'll give him that. But story-wise, that movie that shows kind of I don't really know what they want us to believe and think right now, you know, and that's that's a problem that the MCU's got, and the shows do not help it at all, including Loki. So if there's a clear vision, and this will obviously be after Secret Wars, so there might be a clearer vision because they're trying to not be as multiversal, then it'll probably do just fine as a director. I don't know. You know, first-time directors can be amazing, first-time directors can suck, it all depends. So I think if he's worked good with directors and stuff and he knows how to do it, he's probably he's got a lot of backing behind him. Kev Fuggy's gonna be there. He wants him, he wants him to succeed, he doesn't want him to fail.

SPEAKER_06 31:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 31:53

So if he gives his best and his best is good enough, we'll get a good movie. Yep. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:58

All right, guys. Comment down below what you think of this. Are you excited for a Nova theatrical film instead of a TV show? Who do you think should play Nova? I already have someone in my brain for that.

SPEAKER_04 32:08

I'm gonna have to um study up on Nova just enough to give a counter guy, but yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:14

I actually, you know what, I'll just spoil it right now. It's uh one of my favorite child actors that has grown up enough that I think he's like a uh 15, 16 years old, but doing a young Nova I think would be kind of cool. Um I he might be actually be a little older now that I think of it because kids grow up so fast nowadays, too.

SPEAKER_04 32:31

Yeah, you never know like what's 17 on screen is sturdy.

SPEAKER_02 32:35

Yes, you know what I mean. It's yeah, right, or vice versa. Like you could really some some people just look young forever type thing. Uh Jacob Trembley.

SPEAKER_04 32:43

Okay, I know who that is. Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_02 32:45

I I think he would play a cool uh um Richard Ryder Nova.

SPEAKER_04 32:50

Okay, I was gonna say Robert De Niro, but I I looked into the character, so I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 32:55

Like if they wanted to go the younger version and things like that, and and then he'd be around long enough so he could do a lot multiple films like that, because he's well enough known, but he's not like uh how do I say this properly? Um he's he's kind of like a mainstay actor when you cast him and stuff. He's been in a lot of stuff, honestly, for a young kid, but I think it's just because he's that good of an young actor.

SPEAKER_04 33:20

Yes, I think that's a big part. Yes, not expensive, not famous enough to have a lot of demand, but enough to become something through this universe.

SPEAKER_02 33:29

Yes, this will definitely heighten his profile and then keep him there for a long period of time. Yeah. So, anyways, guys, what do you think? What do you think of my fan casting? Do you have a fan casting? What do you are you excited? Do you think this is gonna be one of the first movies that comes out? Let us know in the comments below. All right, I'm gonna just read to you some doomsday stuff. Some weird stuff right here. We got a lot that's been released within this past week. Just this is just leading up to San Diego Comic-Con. Yeah. Which is gonna be full on Doctor Doom, we know. Um, so Doomsday promotion has officially begun, and boy, is it with a bang. So prepare for huge Marvel news at their Hall H panel at San Diego Comic-Con, officially now taking place on Saturday, July 25th, between 8 30 p.m. and 9 30 p.m. Eastern Standard Time. And by the way, that's when we're gonna be filming our next episode, guys. So we're gonna be doing it some not live live. Well, but we might do it as a YouTube live too at the same time. But we will be filming it and announcing things as it comes out. That's what we're planning on for our multiverse minute, is gonna be a San Diego like reveal. Holy smokes.

SPEAKER_04 34:41

Yeah, we'll find lots of stuff to talk about in between ROE, and then we'll have fun with that for sure.

SPEAKER_02 34:45

Oh yeah. Oh, I'm I'm excited. This is gonna be really fun. But, anyways, guys, um, this comes as the tickets for the film officially go on sale July 20th, and the runtime is tentative tentatively revealed to be two hours and 45 minutes, though it's worth noting that that is subject to change. If that is indeed the final runtime, it is the second longest MCU, nay Avengers movie that they've done with Endgame still beating it out by close to 25-30 minutes. Anyways, um, let's see here. Also, team posters have been revealed, and the first official concept art by Andy Park has now been released for everyone to see right now what they're gonna look like. And also expect what Marvel calls, quote, the future of the MCU, unquote, in San Diego. So a lot of stuff to digest there and jump right into. So let's start with the we already talked about the first thing that we're gonna be doing, somewhat of a live stream type live recording, I should say, of the San Diego Comic-Con as it's happening. Um but the tickets officially go on sale on the 20th. Right now, we are filming this on July 16th, so in four days, they officially go on sale. That is true. That's that's pretty cool. Do you think that this is a little early for, or do you think this is just the right time? So yes.

SPEAKER_04 36:13

On this first part, well, let's see. Is it early for the tickets or late for tickets? Um no, I think it's I think when it comes down to selling tickets, I I don't think there's a standard in the sense of like you have to go by a certain time because the Odyssey started selling them like a year ago. You know, I think if you want to get you wanna get you know people excited enough, and it and it also gives them a lot of time to like count and see what they're thinking their count's gonna be like for the opening weekend. So I think it's good strategically to do it further out for a movie like this. I would say for a movie that's not this anticipated, you might be kind of shooting yourself in the foot because it's not gonna you might sell a bunch at first, but you know, it's not gonna be a huge group. You can kind of guess the majority of the time. Um, but with this, yeah, I think they really want to they're anticipating on the amount of people. And of course, you know how it's gonna be crowds of people. So it's so I think they're just getting ahead of the curve when it comes down to the estimation of their opening day, you know, an opening weekend. Yeah. In this in this situation.

SPEAKER_02 37:19

I I will say, because I I already made up my mind how I was gonna do this last December when I saw the first teaser trailer. Uh I already know when we're getting our tickets, I know what theater, I know what seats. I have a pre-planned in my head. So if this and if on the 20th, if that's actually announced, and I I have a membership for Cinemart, and I loved what they did with the Avatar Way of Water, not Way of Water, I'm sorry. What's the last one? Fire and Ash. Um we saw it in the real D3D. You did have to wear the glasses, but it was uh so I don't know if or would you be okay with that with the glasses over your glasses type thing, or I think they make them big enough, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 38:00

I've watched movies with that like that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:02

Because sometimes when you watch a movie like that, that's why for Avatar, I'm like, I'm not sure, you know, if it's something new format, if I would like it so much. It I it did not deter me from the movie at all. And actually, when I saw the doomsday trailer during that, it was in that that mode, and Thor was like right next to you. It was cool. And oh my gosh, it really is fun. I've seen several movies, I've seen probably blew me away with how good that trailer was in that. And I literally looked at mom and I said, I can watch this whole movie like this. And that's when I thought, you know what, why not? Yeah, so I that's what I'm planning on for opening night. Yeah, I'm that so if I'll find out in four days if I can claim the tickets.

SPEAKER_04 38:47

So the glasses didn't deter you from falling asleep during Avatar then.

SPEAKER_03 38:50

No, I can't just said that. Yeah, no. Uh, anyways, uh sorry, sorry, but no, I get it, I get it.

SPEAKER_02 39:00

It is a pretty long movie, the avatar. You have to I feel like you have to be a real hardcore fan to be able to get through most of it without like finding those beats that God bless them. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 39:09

So I'm not one of them.

SPEAKER_02 39:11

Yeah. But anyways, doomsday look fantastic in that. So that's what I'm planning, guys. Anyways, um, so there's that. And the runtime. Do you have any comments about that?

SPEAKER_04 39:22

Yeah, I was actually while we're talking, I was just looking up the runtimes of the other Avenger movies just to see. And I'll be I'm surprised. It's actually not only behind Endgame if this is the if this is the final runtime, but yeah, the others, you know, 223, 221, 229. This only adds a few more, like another 15 or 20 minutes at the most. And then endgame is three hours and one minute. Yeah, okay. Yeah. You know, I I am of the I'm of the camp of the runtime of a movie really doesn't matter as long as it serves the movie, you know? So a movie can be as long as you want it to be. I mean, obviously we don't want five-hour long movies, and I don't want a 45-minute movie either, right? I think there is a a certain bracket on each side that you're like, listen, you want, you know, three hours is a pretty meaty movie, and under an hour and a half is a pretty short movie. So, not that there's not good movies under an hour and a half, and not there's you know, just I mean, we got Lord of the Rings, we got Lawrence of Arabia. If you want to talk about longer movies, you know, over three hours, Titanic, you know, there's a lot of movies that are over three hours where there are masterpieces that call for it. Um I think with this particular movie, without making it like it has to be three hours long, it does make me kind of go, hmm, 245. There's a lot that they're cluing us in, especially if you believe any of the rumors that are that have come out to be true. I still have yet to read them, but from what I'm hearing, it is packed full of stuff. This movie's gonna fly by if there's a lot going on.

SPEAKER_06 41:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 41:05

And that does kind of worry me. Because when there's a ton of stuff happening, it's not about whether they can handle it all, because they can. But it does make the movie fly. Because Endgame does not feel like three hours when you watch it. It's so quick, but it's three hours. But man, it goes by fast.

SPEAKER_02 41:26

And you're a lot happier. Yeah. And you're s I feel like you seem satisfied with the movie.

SPEAKER_04 41:31

You almost know more.

SPEAKER_02 41:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 41:33

It's like you're almost like it could have done 20 more minutes and I wouldn't have complained. You know, so especially because it's so it's broke up and it was perfect, had a little slower of a beginning, but them choosing to go kill Thanos and beginning right away is just set the tone and pace. This movie's boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, oh, going back in time. There's so much going on. This has that potential of feeling that way. And it does make me go, huh? Why not push it to the three? You you can't tell me that you don't have the footage to. So it makes me wonder why cut it down to the to 45. If you can do a three-hour cut, do a three-hour cut. Don't leave scenes out that could have had more time to linger. Because if it meant having a character in or not, and you're talking 20 minutes to half an hour, put the character in, right? So it's like, because it's what's it gonna hurt for little cameos? You know, they can handle them. It's not the cameo, it's not the the stuff in the movie that's the problem. It's that the movie does fly by at that. I think that people are underestimating people. The industry's underestimating the audience when it comes down to how long they'll sit and watch this movie. You know, you make it three hours and even if you made it three hours and ten minutes. I wouldn't go much further than that, but at least hit three. I think I think if you could find 15 minutes of stuff that you had a hard time cutting that you want to put back in this movie, that nobody you're gonna hear nobody complain if it's three hours. In fact, you're probably gonna hear like what you're hearing from me is oh, it's not three hours? Yeah. Like is there I think people are expecting an Avengers movie to be a long movie.

SPEAKER_02 43:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 43:11

A big one, you know?

SPEAKER_02 43:12

I I and not that we have to be accustomed to it, because there's only one Avengers movie so far that's come to three hours long. Um, so we shouldn't expect every one of them to be three hours, but you find out it's the Russo brothers. You find out what they're to doing in this movie when it comes to introducing a big bad villain, and then you find out that you find out, yeah, there's X-Men that they're bringing into the fold. And you know, they're this is their first attempt at like a Marvel Ultimate Alliance type movie. And so you're expecting it to be minimum three hours, three hours fifteen minutes, you know, push that a couple more minutes envelope a little bit.

SPEAKER_04 43:51

So, um I mean, you're talking that's it's one minute longer than Black Panther. Really? The one we're about to do today. To the math. So, like, what are we talking about here?

SPEAKER_06 44:02

Hmm.

SPEAKER_04 44:04

Give us 15 more minutes, man.

SPEAKER_02 44:06

Yeah. Well, and and like I said, thankfully, they said that this is tentative and they are starting official reshoots in two or three weeks.

SPEAKER_04 44:14

Yeah, that's gonna be the difference. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 44:16

So maybe at the mo probably because they're selling tickets, they have to put the time on it too. And at this current standing, it's two hours and 45 minutes. For all we know, that's just they're they're throwing it out there, and then it's gonna be updated come September and October and all that stuff, and it's gonna say three hours, 15 minutes, and we'll be like, all right, that's what we were expecting.

SPEAKER_04 44:37

Yeah, because we're gonna talk in the rumor mill about this, and I'll bring it up, but I'm pretty sure there's things that haven't been filmed that now they've heard people's voice it out, especially with this leak that's been out that might be real, people might be talking about it. That they're kind of like, well, let's call that actor and make sure they have like a day that we can get him in here. And so that I mean that's kind of what I'm thinking. Yeah. Because there's a few things that's been confirmed since we've made this up that we're kind of like, oh, this is pretty obvious. You sent me a storm thing the other day. We'll talk about when we get to our spot that's appropriate.

SPEAKER_02 45:07

Yeah, Helly Barry. We knew you're good at teasing.

unknown 45:12

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 45:13

We know, yeah. You're right. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Come on. Anyways, we'll probably throw that up here on our on our screen. The little the what I sent you would be like.

SPEAKER_04 45:29

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We know.

SPEAKER_02 45:32

We've been around. Yeah. Come on. Uh anyway, so I'm gonna hold up in core.

SPEAKER_04 45:37

I'll tell you that right now.

SPEAKER_02 45:39

So the the next thing on here then is that Andy Park, who was the head, I think he was a the the department head basically of their visual arts and concept artwork and things like that. He is one of those that was let go recently. And uh it's already been out there, from my understanding, this concept art. So he just released a high definition version. So we officially got the first look at all these characters. Like this is official look at them. Did you get a chance to actually see the picture? I did. What are your thoughts?

SPEAKER_04 46:13

Do they look great?

SPEAKER_02 46:14

They to me, they looked as expected. I feel like at this point, we kind of had an idea of what they're gonna look like, the little hints we saw of them, and now that just to me just confirmed this is how they're doing them. There might be some tweaks, because you never know.

SPEAKER_04 46:28

Yeah, but for yeah, I mean, I think they're gonna be fun. I think it's gonna look good. I mean, I I'm don't have a lot of uh nerves when it comes down to how well they're gonna make them look. The MCU's done very good. And and the the MCU has successfully done well and making them look good and getting us as closer and closer and closer to comic book accurate looks that when they do kind of go hardcore on it, it's okay.

SPEAKER_05 46:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 46:53

I mean, it for the longest time they always thought Wolverine would never do good with the yellow spandex, or at least the yellow suit, because I know it's not spandex in the movie. Yeah, but then when we saw it, we're like, duh, it's awesome, you know? Yeah. So it does come down to they've got the audience used to it, and now the these other characters that are a little out there, or you know, why not? You know, they're just going for it. And I think going for it's good. I think that's what's gonna make the new Street Fighter movie real well, too. Yeah, everyone kind of dumps on it, but I think what it's doing though is taking out that thing of, well, you can't say we don't look like the game, so then now it's just the fighting and the story. Yeah, now it's just the story. You're good to go. Yeah, you know, I would even say that they did well with that in the last Mortal Kombat.

SPEAKER_02 47:33

I was just gonna say that.

SPEAKER_04 47:34

Yeah, they got a little closer on some, and some were dead on. And it's yeah, I mean, it's it looks great. So you don't need to change these things.

SPEAKER_02 47:42

So I like that the Fantastic Four are wearing jackets. I think the white jackets really complement their their aesthetic.

SPEAKER_04 47:49

Well, it speaks to that retro thing that you've got to do.

SPEAKER_02 47:50

Yep, it speaks to that era. I love it. I think that's cool. Doom looks very d spitting comic accurate. Like that I feel like you would have to be a real dum-dum to mess up the look of Doom.

SPEAKER_04 48:04

Yeah, pretty simple. You could have fun with it, but I mean they have.

SPEAKER_02 48:07

Look at Fan For Stick in 2015.

SPEAKER_04 48:10

But Yeah, they tried a whole different direction with them there, right?

SPEAKER_02 48:13

Yeah, you tried.

SPEAKER_04 48:14

But the Doom from the other two look great.

SPEAKER_02 48:16

Oh, yes. Yeah, Julian's uh Doom. You look fine. Amazing. Yeah, anyways. Um, so they got that looking good. They I like the Cyclops is awesome. Yes, I like the I like that they're doing the the the 90s X-Men outfits. I'm kind of sad we don't get blue boobs, but something could happen mid-battle, who knows? Anyways, I'm all for this because it's warmer.

SPEAKER_04 48:40

I I agree. If they're gonna if they're gonna do it, then do it. I agree. Like I'm with I get what you're saying. Yeah, but at the same time, it's I mean, it is what the skull necklace is a little weird, still kind of doesn't make sense, even in the cartoons, other than evil, you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. So that needs to be one thing that makes me kind of go, do we need that? You know, and it won't in the long run. And if it does, it's still gonna be you wear skulls around your neck. It's like just tell everybody you're bad, you know. So it's kind of you know, that other than that, you know.

SPEAKER_02 49:09

But what I appreciate is they are keeping the scales on her. Oh, yeah. That is that is part of the original Brian Singer aesthetic of what he wanted to revamp Mystique to be. She's not just blue, she's yes. I this is like the perfect complement of the X-Men movies we've gotten so far, and then the 90s cartoon bled together. And I dig the white outfit, honestly. I really do think it's cool. I think she's gonna look fantastic, regardless of what she's wearing. If she acts the same way she acts in the first X-Men film, she's gonna be fantastic.

SPEAKER_04 49:41

You know, if they were real smart to her character in it, just briefly, would not like Magneto, or at least they wouldn't be friends and they'd be reuniting because he walked away from her when she got hit with that dart. And then at the end of the movie, it clearly shows that it's possible that that cure wears off because he was able to move the chess piece, which means she's gonna be like, Oh yeah, but you remember when you left me behind?

SPEAKER_05 50:03

Yep.

SPEAKER_04 50:04

Because that was very to me out of character of him.

SPEAKER_05 50:06

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_04 50:07

Yes, even though she turned human, I I I I could see him walking away from her, but I do have an issue with it's almost unremorseful, and I felt like that was not you know what's funny, we don't like that from X-Men 3, but then make it good.

SPEAKER_02 50:21

But then when you watch uh Days of Future Pass, it makes sense because that's he just treats her how he treats her. Like he likes her for a certain reason, that she's a mutant and that she could be loyal to him. But the moment one of those things is not there, he dumps her.

SPEAKER_04 50:37

That's true. I think I still think there's remorse in him when he went to kill her, though. I think he just saw it as the only way.

SPEAKER_02 50:43

Yeah, there is, but it's the same that would do it.

SPEAKER_04 50:45

Yeah, but I do think it bothers him that he had to. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 50:48

I think I think this would be kind of cool if this is this the complementary of the Jennifer Lawrence and Rebecca Romain Mystique. Yes, where she is her own character. You literally hear that. Yeah. It'd be nice. Yeah, hear her talk more and hear that there is friction between her and Eric, and also her and Charles, because yeah, you really complement all those characters together. Yeah. So I'm I'm excited for that.

SPEAKER_04 51:11

We'll get into that more another time.

SPEAKER_02 51:13

So, anyways, I love the concept art. It makes me really super stoked to potentially see the the trailer at the end of next week. So I'm excited for that, guys.

SPEAKER_04 51:22

The only thing Paul H makes me nervous for is just gonna tell us too much for the future.

SPEAKER_02 51:25

That's the thing. They end this little thing with saying the future of the MCU in San Diego. So what does that mean? Like I I'm assuming it's phase seven because they're already announced a Nova movie. X-Men is rumored to be right now in pre-production with casting developments happening, which if the rumors out there are true, they're gonna be filming it this fall, starting to making it one of the first movies after Secret Wars. So I We've known that for a while. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 51:58

Said this a long time ago. Yeah that after the multiverse, the thing he wants to dive into is X-Men. Yeah. So we knew this was coming. That's not a big spoiler.

SPEAKER_03 52:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 52:07

And and the fact that we just don't know who they are is kind of the fact that makes it fun. Yeah. They listed it when they're listening to movies, though, you're kind of like, man, kind of I feel like it's a little bit of a jump the gun.

SPEAKER_02 52:17

I've yeah, to me personally, I feel like they're stealing the thunder of Doomsday. I agree. Maybe they're doing it on purpose to get people to talk about something else other than Doomsday, but at the same time, why? You're promoting your movie. You want us up until the moment we see it, and then months after that, be talking about Doomsday.

SPEAKER_06 52:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 52:35

So why steer the ship? That's why I'm surprised this Nova thing was announced already. Be like, you have a week and a half before you have an event, you could announce that. And even then, why announce it right now? Wait next year. It will make sense once you hear my take on one of our rumor mill things. So we'll go from there. All right, guys. Well, then the question is for you. We're gonna get right into the rumor mill in a moment. So, what do you think of this, all the stuff that's happening? Are you excited for Hall H? Are you gonna live stream it with us and just see what we're doing? Tune into the Gazelle Multiverse podcast on YouTube. I'm gonna figure out a way we could be able to do a live stream while also doing our recording of it because I think that will be fun. You get to hear it when we hear it, and we're gonna go there together. What do you think of the doomsday promotion? What do you think of the outfits? What do you think of the runtime? What do you think of everything? Let us know in the comments below. All right. So we're just gonna just roll right into the rumor mill rundown. Yes, here we go. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 53:37

Hello, everybody. So here we are at the rumor real rumor mill rundown. I will eventually get really good at saying that. It just rolls into one sound for me, but it will it will work. Um, so I'm gonna go ahead and read off our first little rumor we have, and we'll talk about if we think it's anything good or what we think of it, you know. So the first rumor is some Scarlett Johansson stuff and Batman, believe it or not. So we're gonna do some DC dipping. So rumors circulate online recently claims that Matt Reeves has cast uh Scarlett Johansson to play a less supernatural and more grounded version of Pamela Isley, aka Poison Ivy, and Batman Part 2. What do you think about this and if it's true? So what I'll let you start off, Sammy.

SPEAKER_02 54:25

Okay. So it's kind of funny that they're they're doing this. It's how do how do I how do I want to start this off, guys? So I have said before that I we've talked about the supernatural ones, and we don't think they'll ever do that for this kind of Batman. We're gonna that we feel they were gonna save that for the James Gunn version Batman because this is a little more grounded, a little more realistic. And par me was like, well, I'd love to someday see poison ivy back on the main screen again, and I think that'll be pretty cool. Well, am I gonna see it now just in a more grounded way? It makes me wonder how they can do a grounded poison ivy? She is supernatural. That's the whole shtick about her. Is plants can grow up and then she could do a toxic kiss, and then there's this, you know, this. I don't know. Scarlett Johansson, perfect to play her. I mean, I would not say no to Scarlett Johansson playing Poison Ivy, but for the Batman part two, and that's that's the direction they're going, and it makes me wonder what does a grounded version mean? Is she just a plant botanist type thing and she wants to cause global warming? I don't know what what what all that means. Um I'm curious about this. It's funny that this has come up because in the beginning of all these castings for Batman Part 2, they were all undisclosed roles for Scarlett Johansson, for Sebastian Stan, for all these people thought Sebastian Stan was gonna play Harvey Dent, and then now the latest rumor is that he is going to play um Sar, Scars, something like that. Zaz. Zaz. Zaz, yes. So that begged the question: what's Scarlett Johansson playing then? If she's not gonna play Harvey Dent's mother or wife or however they're gonna do it, she potentially could be playing Poison Ivy. That'd be very interesting. Um I don't know. It's if this turns out to be true, I am a little more intrigued to see what they're gonna do. Just I'm already intrigued if Zazz turns out to be true because he's really cool and I'd love to see him on the main screen. But I wonder what story they're gonna tell if Scarlett Johansson is playing Pamela Isley and they're doing a grounded version of Poison Ivy. I don't want them to mess up Poison Ivy, but how do you do a supernatural poison ivy in a grounded way? That's my that's my only skepticism. Other than that, the casting, perfect if that's true. Spot on. Love it, amazing. But yeah, that's that's my two cents. That's really all I have to say about it at the moment. So what do you think? I can so I got three thoughts.

SPEAKER_04 57:10

Oh my god. My first thought is I think it's about a six percent chance that this is true. I don't think it's true. Um I don't think she's playing Poison Ivy. I don't think he's going to do Poison Ivy. Uh just like uh when everybody thought Sebastian Stan, the first thing came to their head was Harvey Dent. But then once they kind of said that there's a little kind of a leak out there that it says, you're kind of like, oh, that makes a lot more sense. And I'd like to see him actually play that. And I think that's what Reeves is going for. He wants to change your perception of what you're looking at, which I think is why he depicked Robert Pattinson as Batman, because it made everybody freak out. And then once it happened, you're like, oh, of course. He's awesome. If you look at everyone that he cast in that first one, all of them, everyone's like, this is not sound right at all. None of them sound right. Then you watch it and you're like, oh, it's fantastic. So I I think if the six percent comes true though, with a caveat, I'll say, I think how he makes her ground it will be very similar to how he grounded the penguin. And I you really need to watch the show to get him a little more of that. But when as in like in the movie, he's just a guy that's a little disabled, a little deformed, he's got a bad foot, he's got a disease. Um, but it's not like a disease that's like you know, gonna turn him into a penguin, you know. So and then and that's very different from the source material, very different. And the penguin part of it is they call him that behind his back and he hates it. But then he kind of embraces it for fun because he it's like a mobster getting their nickname, and he he actually enjoys that in this. So it's like I I can see them what I don't see is how it relates to a serious story. It's not so much if you can ground her or not, but if she's a bad guy killing people with plant stuff, it's gonna be real easy to find her, and there's not gonna be a big mystery here, right? And I think that that's kind of the idea is they want these to still feel like a mystery, which is why Zaz is gonna be more of that out-of-control serial killer that's a little more lunatic-ish than what we got with the Riddler. Because that Riddler was like kind of like Seven was that guy, you know, like it's like we're gonna talk today about seven. Yeah. That Riddler is was very inspired by that.

SPEAKER_02 59:29

Um makes sense, actually.

SPEAKER_04 59:30

It does when you think about it. Is it the whole big plan? It's all that I think this guy is gonna be more a different thing, maybe even a little more personal, which makes me think Scarlet is gonna be actually probably a news reporter who becomes Bruce's love interest in this, or at least Batman's in a sense of we're gonna have the now that we have Bruce Wayne, because we didn't have Bruce Wayne in the first movie, right? The argument my argument's always been that Robert Panson played Batman the entire time, even when he was in like when he was Bruce Wayne, he was always Batman. And that's why when you got to that scene of him and Alfred talking, Alfred, you you know I care about you as Bruce, and that's he was like, Oh, I never thought about it that way. And then at the end, when he does become that beacon of hope, Batman, where you see him leading people out of the water with the thing, you're like, now there's two different people here. It's a Batman and a Bruce Wayne thing. He's not just out there kicking butt with criminals because he's pissed at the world anymore. It's gonna be part of it, but now he realizes there's a bigger thing here at stake that he is now a part of. And I think that that's gonna bring a lot of attention, and that's where you're gonna see Scarlet Johansson come in. Now, whether it turns into a love interest or not, I don't think they need to go that far with it, but if they do it, it would be interesting, you know. I I would rather that than uh than a poison ivy because what are you gonna do with her that's gonna be secretive? I want this to still feel like a detective movie that he's figured he's got something new he's gotta figure it out. And it'd be neat to put her in a position of danger of someone that could be a link to him of any kind of humanity that he has left is Bruce Wayne. So it makes the urgency and raises the stakes. I think that's the grounded that you're gonna get in this movie, personally. I think every time you get a casting from these guys and you start thinking who they could and couldn't be, I think that's what he wants you to do, and then what he's gonna give you is gonna be the opposite because that's what he did with the first movie. No one would have thought of her as being Catwoman, no one would have thought Colin Farrell playing penguin with all that prosthetics was gonna work. They even thought John Totaro was the mob boss wasn't a good idea. They didn't even like Pat, they didn't like you know Pattinson doing it because he's Twilight Boy, you know what I'm saying? Come to find out, it's amazing, and he did a great job. You know, it's not necessarily my favorite Batman movie, but it's really good. And so I I I think it's very low that she plays that part. I think it's more likely she plays a normal part that deals in Bruce Wayne's life more than Batman's. And uh yeah, I mean, that's all we're really talking. I don't think the supernatural part, but yeah, there's gonna be none, guys. He's not gonna do it. So don't he's not even going to like, but then this year could be like a tad bit of a science anomaly. No, he's not even gonna go there. I think it's gonna be as grounded as possible. So if you want any of that in your Batman, you're not gonna get it with Matt. I think he dedicated himself more than Nolan did to do this because I even think Nolan took a little liberties about when it comes down to it's still very much real, but it's still a little okay, that's a little grander. The Raoul's Al Ghoul is a little more super. It's a little more grander, yeah. It's it was realistic because it wasn't supernatural, but it was grander. I don't think you're getting this with Matt. I think it's always going to be a very personal thing as you go.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:46

I can see when you mentioned that you think she's probably gonna be like a news reporter that may have like a may romantic interest, possibly with Bruce Ring. The first character comes to mind that we have not seen in live adaptation of Batman is like a news reporter named Vicky Vale. I think nope, you're right. And I think that that could be really cool. She's just in the crossfires of Zaz doing his thing. She's trying to figure out like a kind of like a seven thing, like a detective trying to figure out who's killing all these people, and then in doing so, she's run into Batman or Bruce multiple times, and all of a sudden now he has to save her.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:23

You know, maybe and maybe he'll even subvert even expectations even more because of Scarlett Johansson, she's obviously gonna be kind of a love interest. Maybe she's his therapist, and we get to learn Bruce Wayne through him talking to her. Maybe she's Harley Clinton. No, just kidding. Yeah, maybe he decides to go talk to somebody and he's still got to keep his identity secret, but he's able to kind of talk about things and and it and as Batman goes through things, his his uh sessions are different. You know, I mean there could be there could be a lot to that, you know, and who knows? I think it's I think it's a higher possibility to whatever you guys are thinking, probably the opposite, you know, or go in a different direction. All right, guys.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:03

Yeah follow through. What do you guys think? Is Scarlett Johansson playing Poison Ivy? Is she playing somebody else? Um, let us know about our theories. Do you think this is gonna happen in the Matt Reeves movie? Do you think it's more of a James Gunn thing? Let us know in the comments below.

SPEAKER_06 1:04:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:19

All right. I'm gonna read to you guys this next one. This has been a rumor that's been out there for a while now regarding Avengers Secret Wars, and some other things have come to light a little bit, which has made me a little more suspicious. And I'm like, I think right before San Diego Comic-Con comes out, because we really don't know exactly what they're announcing, but if they are doing this, this will be very interesting to talk about. So, based on online rumors that the Russo brothers have been in talks to direct and produce another Avengers film, plus with the phase seven announcement anticipation at San Diego Comic-Con with the Secret Wars plot potentially leaked, that we mentioned in our last rumor rundown, the one stating that the film ends with the multiverse still intact, could all these rumors add up to the validation of Secret Wars Part 2 that's been rumored and hinted online in splitting up Avengers Secret Wars into a two-parter? And could we be getting another phase of multiversal shenanigans? This is this is a huge what if. Nothing's confirmed. I see pluses and benefits to this rumor, pluses and minus, I should say, to this rumor. I feel like I overall statement. I feel like they've dropped the ball on the multiverse stuff more times than they've actually been able to throw it and pick it up. This could be their way of saying, hey, we have some really cool multiverse stuff stories to tell that we feel like we actually can do, but we're gonna need a little time to do it. What if everyone's right now under the belief. That Secret Wars in 2027 is gonna end the multiverse saga and continue it on. But we've had rumors of them saying, oh, Secret Wars, depending on how Doomsday does, is gonna be split up into two movies. Then we had a plot leak that for Secret Wars, take a huge grain of salt if it's even real. But according to that rumor, it's ending with the multiverse still intact, which I know puts us off a little bit. Be like, aren't we done with this yet? Why keep it around? And it like I said, you heard our last rumor rundown, we talked about the pros and cons of that. And then there's also that rumor of the Rooster Brothers saying they're gonna do another Avengers film, at least potentially in within the next phase or two. And now with what sounds like to be the future of Marvel being presented in a week and a half from now, guys, could this just be one more phase of multiverse done right? Quote unquote, with some of these characters like Nova still being a part of the Infinity War tie-in and the X-Men being introduced and fully brought in, maybe being able to bring in the other X-Men of the Fox universe. Different things are also going on that they want to tie into the multiverse stuff that they just haven't been able to tell yet. Could this be true? Or is this all just one big conspiracy theory? I have no idea. I don't know if I'm gonna like it or if I'm gonna hate it. I feel like for the this podcast, we're just gonna be along for the ride no matter what they do. But who knows? Um I I'm at a loss for words for this, Ike. I really don't know. I think that this is very meaty, this is very interesting. I actually don't think this is happening, and I will be curious to find out what you think about this whole idea of continuing the multiverse for another phase.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:05

Okay. So I just wrote down a few things and make sure I don't forget to say. So part of me, a small part of me, I'll say now, as of ten minutes ago, um, was like, I just want this multi-verse thing to either be explained enough to continue on and we'd be okay with it, or gone. Um, because it's it has made very complicated storylines. But then I also think if they recognized that they had a problem after they had to get rid of Kane. Now, regardless of the outside of the movie things that were going on during that with the actor, um, I think they realized the character itself fell flat in the movie. Um, I still don't blame it on Ant-Man beating him. I I'm okay with him underestimating Ant-Man and putting him at bay, but I'm not okay with him defeating him. And I think in the movie it felt like he defeated him, and they should have ended that where he just tricks him and he's still there, and he's like, Okay, I'll never turn my back on you again. Because I like the idea that Scott is smart enough to outthink somebody, especially if you're underestimating him.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:10

And he has that potential.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:11

That's right, he has that potential, and I think that you should do that with him. Um, so I don't have a problem with it actually being in that movie. The movie sucks beyond that stuff, frankly. We actually the best part about that movie is how he portrayed Kane. Or yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:09:25

Yeah, you're right.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:26

So, you know, regardless, we'll talk about that when we get there. Um so hear me out then. I think I'm you and I are thinking along about the same thing if this is true. Uh if it's true, I think there's stuff to support that it's true. By announcing new movies for the next phase after Secret Wars this early, the only way that doesn't make you feel like, boy, you're kind of just like skipping over, not only are you taking attention with Doomsday, but you're kind of just like not talking about Secret Wars at all and talking about further is now what if they are part of the multiverse still. I think a big brain thing would be to them that when we go see Secret Wars and to the end of the movie and it ends abruptly and it says to be continued, Secret Wars Part 2, Avengers and given a different name or something to that to make it sound a little cool. More secrets. Our minds will melt and blow up there in the theater. And they were not gonna give us any official announcement until that's that's the post-credit scene of Secret Wars, right? It's just they all return and blah blah blah. You'd be like, What the what? You ought to be all be like, okay. And what supports that is I think that I think that I'm right about the Avengers movies thing that I talked to you about. I don't think that they're dumb enough to think that they can they're gonna do single Avengers movies anymore. Because it's it's not gonna work. We are to appoint what Avengers Infinity War and in Endgame did was prove to you that you can tell the big story in two movies and that's in people are gonna like it and we'll wait longer to get it because we want it. So I think that they're like, you know what, let's give them that secret third movie. Because it's not just gonna be a standalone Avengers movie. Because I think they know that they either do it in pairs, or in this case, we're gonna do it in three. And it's gonna be a secret because it's Secret Wars, and I think you're gonna do a play on that and have fun with that. And I think what you're gonna hear Feige announce after Secret Wars comes out, and people are gonna be demanding answers of what the hell does this actually mean. I think it'd be smart for him at that point to even acknowledge just a little bit and say, well, just like with any project, there's their ups and downs, and we found some downs in this one, and these guys have found a great way of making this all connect and feel like it and and feel like it should for the for the people. And then he doesn't have to directly say we messed up, but it is kind of saying we understand the direction of it got a little lost. And the Russos are like, we can fix this, but we need like four movies to do it. And he's like, Can you do six? And they're like, Yes. You know what I mean? And it's kind of what not that they're gonna do all these movies, but they're gonna be overseen up to Secrets 2. I think that that is genius. You can put the X-Men movie now in there during the multiverse still, especially because we're pretty much gonna have to surrender to the fact that Gene Gray's in Spider-Man, and you're gonna have to start expecting how you're gonna be putting her with the X-Men without using multiverse stuff. So if X-Men comes after Secret Wars and our multiverse is over, then whatever happens in Spider-Man and she's Gene Grey, we're gonna be like, wait a minute, how's she not gonna be in all these other? She must be in Secret Wars then. Yeah. Yep. So if she's not, and then then let's say that's how we do see the X-Men get formed, is through whatever multiversal consequences that's going on at the end of Secret Wars part two. That, and then if you wanted to do more with Doom, you have more time to flesh him out. Yes and do Doom in this new one and not give us a lot, and then do him in Secret Wars and kind of see him fail, or them get the better hand of him, and then he can come back with a vengeance in the last part, and maybe we'll get this real cool idea of why he looks like Robert and and and make it a bigger thing and have this thing happen. Yep. I think that I think that they I think that they gave themselves more room than we thought. If this is true. Um I hope it is. I'm leaning towards do it. I'll take another few years of multiverse stuff if they're gonna make sense and fix what was going on. Because now we have a guy to look forward to coming again. We can say between Secret Wars one and two, whatever they do in one is just temporary, and they gotta get through whatever they gotta do through all these other other movies in order for when two comes and he returns, or whatever happens, they're ready to do something and have a final battle. I think that that's genius, and it gives them time to make stories help make sense on the ones that didn't before.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:08

Yep.

SPEAKER_05 1:14:09

That weren't fixed, that weren't worked.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:11

I agree. It gives them more time to to fix all the other stuff from phase four, five, and six that they haven't been able to fully flush out. It gives them more time to flush out Doctor Doom in particular. Yep. Um, it's it's very it's a genius move because I've always found it hard that they're banking everyone coming back for these two Avengers movies, and how are they going to use that to launch fans' interest in staying with it for all the solo films after that? Yeah. And as we know, from Thunderbolts onward, that's where the the Rousseau brothers had their hands in things. They filmed the post-credit scene of Thunderbolts and Fantastic Four. They were there to say, this is what we plan on doing with them in Doomsday. You know, you started getting what we used to get in phases two and three of Kevin Feige or Russo Brothers or whoever the creative geniuses are during those phases. And we definitely are seeing it right now. What we're doing a retrospect retrospective review in phase three, where people had their hands on things to make sure things were consistent and cohesive, and people are actually looking forward to the next solo movie. That's how you started getting Black Panther a billion dollars, Captain Marvel a billion dollars. The solo brand new characters getting a billion dollars is because they had something that made it good and made us fans anticipate it. I feel like just doing two Avengers movies of these creatives, that's gonna be great. They're gonna make major money on both of them. But to sustain the fan base to go through more solo projects, it's smart if they decide we're gonna have you do Secret Wars Part 2. And that's gonna be seven movies later. That's gonna be within the span of five years. We're gonna do two or three movies a year. And Rooster Brothers are gonna be doing every post-credit scene of these movies behind the scenes and behind the scenes to make sure you don't F it up. So you're keeping your fans from phase two and three back to now you got them full swing. The Rooster Brothers can retire after Secret Wars II. And no, I know, but you know, I mean, Kevin Feige probably could hang up his hat and you've got everyone back, and now you're anticipating more solo films, thinking the last solo one was actually pretty good, and they're all billion, billion, billion. Who knows?

SPEAKER_04 1:16:34

Yeah, and and honestly, I mean, guys, you can go a step further. They could when you're talking story-wise, you could do Doctor Doom in these next two and end that version of Doctor Doom in Secret Wars part one, and part two, everything's new. You go, what if this Doctor Doom inspires the Doctor Doom that we're gonna get in the future and from now on, and then we get the part two Secret Wars, it's our new X-Men because we're saying goodbye to our old and these.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:58

And our new Doom.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:59

Our new Doom, our new X-Men, our Fantastic Four. Everybody knew securing their future in a meta way in an Avengers movie.

unknown 1:17:08

Yep.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:09

You know, ending with Doom in some sort of universal prison, whether it's a raft type of situation. Yep. And they they stopped him and then, or you know what I mean? Like, gosh, if they're smart. They right off the bat, they'd do the first two first movies would be X-Men and Fantastic Four. And then in that Fantastic Four movie show the inspiration to him. Yeah. And then you kind of are like, that's kind of my future. It's like a glimpse into him, and there you go. We fixed all the entire problem, and we still got Robert back for fun, and it and it all worked out, and we got some really cool end movies. I mean, I'm just saying, it could be attempts, it could be great.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:41

This could be part of the actual Dr. Doom origin. There's a reversal of Loki, where instead of Loki seeing his future and deciding I want to be good. Yeah, this is Doom seeing his future and saying there is a possibility of me getting more power out there, and I'm always gonna want more power.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:59

Right, especially if the multiverse is still intact.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:01

Yeah, but Doom's this could be my family. It's very comic accurate for him to actually be gaining more power for him. That's why he's the leader of a country. That's why he's got he's always in everyone else's business. He's always someone who's which he even makes the argument in the secret secret invasion comic line of helping them out, or maybe it's not the common line as a cartoon. Either way, Doom helps them find out that there's scrolls there and he creates the technology. And they say, Why are you helping us? And he says, This planet is only ruled by one, and that is me. And that gave me chills when I heard it, and I thought, that's Doom. Yeah, that could be cool. This could be part of his the Doom we want, or not just want, but the Doom that we need for the MCU version move be his origin.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:50

And I sent you something a while ago that was that they did bullet points of a rumor of how many universes are going to be a part of this movie.

SPEAKER_05 1:18:56

Yep.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:56

And it was what? It was our the main timeline, the X-Men one, the Fantastic Four one, and then another one that hasn't really been explained. It was just it even said uh a separate universe that would actually explain it, what if that separate universe is the doom we're getting in this one and it's not the one from the Fantastic Four.

SPEAKER_06 1:19:15

Yep.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:15

Could be interesting. I mean, I hope I hope we just hit it. I hope they'll watch this and go, who told those guys? Because like I thought that'd be great. Like, I mean, if those credits roll in the post-credit scene, it's just that'd be something to be like, they they cracked it.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:32

They cracked it. Rooster Brothers meet the Godell Bros. Yeah, watch our champion shutdown. Right.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:36

It's gone. It's just gone. We're a band guys with suits show up. It's like we'll just sound, we'll stay quiet if you let us in.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:43

I will wear yellow in the next episode if it's true. No, just kidding.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:46

We want to do the Phoenix saga, and we won't say a word. Exactly. Yes, give us that. No, I mean I love it. I hope so that we just had a lot of cool fun ideas. That's why speculation is fun. It's probably not even close. Y'all right. But I do hope they don't. The one thing that I do take out of this, though, is I do hope they don't make the mistake of thinking after these two Avengers movies, they make one so quick afterwards, thinking that that's what we want, and just a single movie because it's not like we talked before, that's not the problem. It's waiting for the Avengers movie isn't the problem. It's what you do between them that's the problem.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:20

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:21

And I think they're smart enough to know that. Yeah. Because if we really know that's true. Everybody out there, if you knew you had to wait six years for Avengers movie coming, but trust us, it's going to be epic, you'd wait because you want it to be. And that's what we've gotten.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:35

Yeah. And the filler in between just makes you more hyped for what they're doing. You want that feeling again. Yes. And that's what we're feeling in this current saga.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:42

That's why we like the MCU.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:44

Yep.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:44

We don't need it that fast. We just need good.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:46

Yes. And that's what it sounds like they're trying to prioritize now. Quantity versus quality. Or quality versus quantity, sorry. Anyways. I'll stick in the multiverse for that for that ride. What do you guys think? Would you stick in the multiverse too? Are you okay with it? Do you want it to just be over with? Do you think they could be playing to something even bigger? Let us know in the comments below. All right, I take it away for our last topic. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:10

Uh Indy Neverett and Adam Driver coming to the X-Men. Adam Driver, best known as Kylo Ren in Star Wars, is rumored to join the MCU as Magnetos. Uh this comes as the obsession. Oh, this comes as the obsession actress uh Indy Neverett. I think I'm saying the last name correctly, has confirmed in an interview that she has went met with dream director Drake Schreier. Currently, his next project he's been working hard on is the X is the MCU's X-Ben film. Could both be joining the film? Which mutant could Indy be playing? And what do we think overall? Hmm.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:47

Yeah. So I want you to touch upon Indy thing because you you've seen Obsession. She is a new up-and-coming actress, so that makes sense with Feige's MO of what he's looking for. What do you think of her as an actress? And who do you think, if this is rumored to be true, she potentially could play within the X-Men?

SPEAKER_04 1:22:09

Yeah, so first of all, Guy's Obsession is still amazing, and it's doing nothing but doing better. And the biggest praises coming out of it is her, you're hearing. Um, everyone else still does a great job in it, too, but she definitely shines. She does in obsession what a lot of people do, like on America's Got Talent or The Voice. When you're gonna go out, and I don't like those particularly to watch them for fun, but there are times where we watch a clip of it and we have a good time. I wouldn't necessarily subscribe to the whole show itself. But one of the things you notice that these singers do when they come on is they show their range. So when you do a song, they do a different version of it because they want to show their low or their high or that they can go back and forth during a song. Because if they do a song that's just one kind of style, you can tell they're like, Well, yeah, but what else do you got? Right. So what she did in Obsession was show her range in this movie. There's layers in this movie that are deeper that this movie is going to be a discussion kind of movie. Um, it's one that I hope we do on the pod because there's a lot of things that we can talk about when she's coming in and out of being Nikki and when she's not Nikki in the story, and when she's what that means, and the different tone of her voices, her looks, like how she's lit the way she conducts herself, the way she acts and walks. There's physical things that she does, there's things with a voice she does, there's things with a face that she does that you're actually demanding her to do a very lot of different things in a way that in fact uh Curry has gone on record saying he's filmed her parts twice sometimes. He'd say you need to do this as Nikki, and she will. And he says, Now you need to do this as a thing that's hiding Nikki, and she'll do a different very way of it. Because then he decided which one he puts in, which scenes to make it look so you didn't know as the first one watching, you get that now. Well, even watching, I've seen it a second time. There's things I missed where I'm like, Oh, I see where that happened that even mixed deeper and more fun, which is why the movie's such a success. And I think that's why it's making a lot because people are going to watch it again for that reason, and then you're walking out going, man, this was almost better the second time because you now you're looking at different stuff. So, with that though, I think that's what got if this is true and she's talking with him, let's for fun. I think it's 50%. I think if she's talking to him, clearly he's got a project he wants to work on with her. But if he's working on X-Men, I mean, why not? If her an actress said you're breaking out and your first breakout got you all this money, and someone says you want to join the MCU, if she's looking to make some money, she's gonna do it. And it's gonna be young and she can do other stuff outside the MCU too. And be she could do a character that goes on for a while and that'd be awesome. Um, I'm I would say it's about 50%, I think. I'm gonna say 50-50 because he could have other projects he's get ready to do as well. Like, and they it's not unnormal for directors to be two movies in their head ahead of what they're doing. Like, hey, when I'm done with X-Men, do you want to do this movie with me? And they've talked about it, right? Because they do that a lot, you know what I'm saying? Um, Tom Cruise is working on three movies at a time sometimes, sometimes filming three at a time if he's not careful. Um, so I think it's 50% that it's true. Um, I'm gonna go on, let's say for speculating that it is true, who she could be playing. I mean, I know for some reason some people thought rogue. I hope not. I don't think so. I think that she's going to surprise us. I think that there might be a character that we're unexpectingly seeing come in. Um, although I think she could be a good you know, I don't know, it depends. This all comes to the bigger story here with Adam Driver as well. When they announced this Adam Driver thing, I'll tell you how I feel about that in a second. But one thing it did for me though is made me realize that if this is even just a rumor that maybe he's just was talking to them about it, which I think is a hundred percent true. I agree. Because he's already kind of talked to about being in the MCU. So I do think that the truth of this is he's talked to about it. I think it's a 96% that he is Magneto. Um, because I think that it's something he will would probably he needs he's an actor in the spot right now that needs to kind of redefine his career.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:17

A resurgence. Yes.

SPEAKER_04 1:26:19

And I think it's coming in the MCU doing a big character like this, it's a knowable face. He's not as expensive as an Ian McCollin or a Mike Fassbender. So I think that it'd be like, okay, this is a guy, he can do this for a while, right? Then it made me realize, oh, we need to look at the age range of these people. So our fan picks that we had before, I think Patrick Wilson still works when it comes down to Xavier. Um, and with them too, as this. Um, but I didn't think of thinking that young for Magneton before. Because I think this I think he's young. I know he's not that young, but he's younger than I was imagining in my head on Hoodung. You know what I'm trying to say?

SPEAKER_02 1:26:58

After this this rumor came out of him potentially being Magneto, I look at him and I'm like, oh, that makes sense. Oh, yeah. I mean for me, like the the his facial features, he's he's a young actor, but he doesn't always look young. He easily could look like that same Magneto for a good 20 years, the exact same way. He has a great acting range. I do think Indy could be be the Mystique to his Magneto.

SPEAKER_04 1:27:26

Yeah, I was gonna say it's good.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:28

Yep. I'll I either thought Mystique or Shadowcat, because she's Indy from just what I look of her, I haven't seen her acting, but she looks like she could be picture perfect Shadowcat of the younger version of her from the comics that we know of. But also, if if her rumor is coming around the same time as Adam Driver, it's potential that they're trying to recreate the brotherhood and reimagine them. And her being a little younger than him than Adam. Them and driver, but also they're not too young with each other, you know. If you look pretty close. Yes. I think that that could be a good complement to the both of them.

SPEAKER_04 1:28:07

Yeah, I think her physicality speaks more to let's utilize that and let's make you mistake. Because I think there's things that she could mimically do with her face to make it look the her transformation. I think they're gonna go for a different look than what they did in the old X-Men that we know. Instead of the scales, like they're flipping over and she changes. I think they're gonna make it look a little different. And I think that she's gonna be able to bring a lot to the table when it comes down to what she can do with her face. Because when you watch obsession, it's there's moments where you're like, you it doesn't even look like the same person in the same shot. She changes her face quick. And I think that it'd be neat to like she cut if she could do kind of a little trick, then CGI takes over. It's like so then the less CGI you use, the more natural it's gonna look. I think that that's a the direction they could go with that, and she could make that part look real good. Then if you wanted to crawl up a wall backwards, she's got some really good stuff. She can do some really weird stuff, so you can do that creepy spider shit that she was doing in that if you wanted to. In the cartoons, she is kind of weird anyway. So let her do some of that weird stuff, and I think that's cool. But as of the Adam Drivers, I'm gonna repeat what I text you that. I said this reminds me of Heath Ledger, and why I say that is because he was a good actor in some bad movies, and I think um Adam has had the same problem. I think he's a good actor that's been in some bad movies, and the unfortunate thing is he became cannon fodder and a target of one of the absolute worst fan bases ever, which is Star Wars, and they just destroyed his name because they just didn't like him for some reason in that role. And if you don't like him for like the character choices that the writers made, I agree they didn't do a very good job with his character, although Adam is not a slouch of an actor, he's fantastic, and I mean everybody should watch Logan Lucky, everybody should watch Marriage Story, everybody should watch there's one where he's a bus driver in Chicago. I can't remember the name of it, I'm sorry, Adam, but fantastic, you know. He is very good, he's very black clansman, he's excellent. Um, I think he could use a new look, and the helmet will help because people will forget they're looking at him, you know, and then if he can physically with his more more voice-wise, have a little more fun and figure it out with Magneto, I think he could do it. And I and I think he's got the intensity, I think he's got the in him and Patrick Wilson are in that spot where they could almost look about the same age, maybe one little older than the other, and I guess that wouldn't matter in those two. We're really not sure when you look at him anyway. Um I think that he could bring a lot to this. And I'm not saying Heath Ledger in is in the sense of he's gonna transform it into an Austrian winning performance, but I say it as if He will give a performance. Yeah, when you heard Heath, everyone's like, that's no way. No way. He's gonna be a Joker. What the hell? We're all gonna look at him and see the guy from this movie, the guy from that. Then you watch it and you it's almost hard to see Heath in it. Right? You're like, whoa, whoa, whoa, you know what I mean? And even when he has the makeup off, it's wild, right? I think Adam, this could be his way of on take me seriously, and if even if you don't, I'm gonna do a fun movie and have a good time and mix dough and get my name back out there because he's unfortunately a victim of Star Wars fandom. He really, all of them people are, all those guys. Oscar Isaac Scott Crack, all of them aren't getting enough of the credit they should because they were in in a movie that had a fandom that just destroyed them.

SPEAKER_05 1:31:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:31:44

Um, that in the last movie wasn't good, you know, but the fandom really just messed it up. So yeah, I I like this compliment of the two. I think she'll fit. I think she'd be a great mystique to his his uh Magneto. The only other character I thought that I for some reason is funny because it often as soon as I read that, I had I submitted to him being Magneto thinking, yes, I actually see this and I actually want it to happen. Then I immediately thought of another one, and then YouTubers beat me to it. Because I was I got on John Campia show and they also said it on theirs, and I almost was like, damn it, John. Great Mind's Thing I like, damn it, R Rob, because Rob's the one that said it first. Oh yeah, Great Minds Thing I like Damn you, Rob. I'm not gonna be the first one online to say it, but I'm gonna echo you, Rob, from the John Campia show. I also immediately thought he could be a good sinister. I don't know why, but I'm like, mmm. I could see that too. So to be honest with you, I think Adam in the X-Men in general is a good idea. Um who he's gonna be though, I prefer Magneto, but if they said he's also gonna be Mr. Sinister, that wouldn't be a bad a bad pick either.

SPEAKER_06 1:33:00

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_04 1:33:01

That'd be fun. Like, really? Do a Mr. Sinister and it's him? I could see that. Yeah. I think we need to, you know, now it's at it's actually made me start rethinking my casting of the X-Men, which makes me cool. Like, do him as a recognizable guy but cheap. And then you're gonna get if you get Patrick Wilson for real as Xavier, he's recognizable but cheap, right? And then all our X-Men core casts can be up-and-comers that are doing like like a Indy Neverette, who is up and coming and new, that is still kind of cheap because she's only got the one movie. Yep, but you know the talents there, and it's just gonna make her star, and then in young enough, where you got nine, ten movies out of these people. I think that's smart. But I think that's what they're going for. Which is why it's hard to cast Cyclops, because I got fan castings, but at the same time, I kind of hope it's a nobody that surprises us because we want it, because Marsden was a nobody that surprised everybody then, truthfully. I mean, he didn't do a lot before uh before Cyclops, and now everybody loves him. And even this last year he's doing a lot of stuff, you know, let alone coming back as him. We're excited. Like these people can grow into these, and I think that would be really cool.

SPEAKER_06 1:34:15

Patrick Schwarzenegger. I don't know. I mean I like it. Yeah, that's a good that's a good thought. I like it.

SPEAKER_04 1:34:27

And I still think Clinton East would sound to play Wolverine.

SPEAKER_06 1:34:30

There you go.

SPEAKER_04 1:34:30

I mean a little younger, but a little older than the rest. Yeah. Great shape.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:37

Kevin Feige, we're right here.

SPEAKER_04 1:34:38

We figured out your secret war secret. Now bring us in.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:34:41

Tell everybody if you don't.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:45

All right, guys. What do you think of these two prestigious actors? Young, up and coming, or just need a little bit of a career boost actors. Do you think they could be playing Magneto and Raven Darkholm? Do you think they'd be somebody else? And this is just cool. Uh, what do you think? Let us know in the comments below. All right. I think that concludes our rumor rundown.

SPEAKER_04 1:35:08

It does, yeah. It really does. I like these rumors this week. That was a lot of fun.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:11

That was fun.

SPEAKER_04 1:35:12

We got we had a couple some good ideas right there. Right? Part of me almost wishes there there was so true because now it's like it's gonna be something else.

SPEAKER_03 1:35:20

Yeah, right? Yeah, we have to stuff up.

SPEAKER_04 1:35:23

That is cool. That that could be a genius move. That could be. That could be a genius move, you know.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:29

What are we rolling into, I guess, now?

SPEAKER_04 1:35:31

Well, now we're going to go into our branch point breakdown, and we have a special edition today with a guest, which is a mom again. I know you guys are gonna see a lot of her mom, but we're gonna get other guests on. But these movies in particular are ones that I personally shared with her as a kid, and that we've been sharing with Sammy, and or we both have shared with her. So this is gonna be a fun one. It's seven. She introduced this to us, so me too when I was young, and I think uh it'll be a fun movie to talk about. I'm not quite sure. Is it horror? Is it a thriller?

SPEAKER_02 1:35:59

What is it? It's my first time watching it where they've been watching it longer than me.

SPEAKER_04 1:36:02

Yeah, I actually had a take on it that I talked to you about the other day before I left. And about a half hour before I got here, I had an epiphany. I've changed my mind. So it's already changed. Oh boy. It actually almost changed for the like I couldn't believe I've seen this movie probably 20 or 30 times, and I just this last watch we had when we watched on the deck. Um, I was like, wait a minute, why did I not recognize this part of it? So we'll talk about it.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:29

So all right, guys, here we go.

SPEAKER_04 1:36:37

Hello, everybody. So welcome to our next segment, The Branch Point Breakdown. We have a special guest today. It's our mom again. She's introduced us to these movies pretty much that we've talked to about these last few times. But today we're gonna talk about seven. It's an old horror psychological thriller, thriller, we're not sure. You know, it's a it's in a weird category of its own. Kind of started a genre. I think uh it made a genre better and started a whole new version of it, I think, as it goes forward, to be honest. So what we're gonna do is just gonna do a little history behind it and uh talk about what it's about real fast, and we'll go through our our uh our normal um bullet points that Sammy and I have always done and talk about a couple scenes of this and why it's a movie that we like or what we don't like or do like. Give us a we'll give a review. You guys excited to do that? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:37:24

I don't think Sam liked the movie as much as you and I did.

SPEAKER_04 1:37:27

Probably not. And I just last night when I was leaving, I told Sam, or the night before when we watched it, I can't remember what night it was, but I said uh it might not be as good as I thought it was sometimes if I really had to pick it apart. But then today, about half hour before it came over, I changed my mind again because I had an epiphany about the movie again. It's the 20 times I've seen this movie now, and this time we watched it, I saw uh something in it that I never saw before. So it's one of those kind of things where it's deep, it's got a lot of stuff going on. And yeah. So definitely genre-defying in a way. So, Sammy, why don't you go ahead and give us the history quick, and then we'll have mom tell us the synopsis, and I'll do a brief little uh description of the story, and we'll jump right into talking about this movie.

SPEAKER_02 1:38:10

You got it, yes, sir. All right, ladies and gentlemen. History behind the film. The movie is called Seven. Release date was September 22nd, 1995. For some reason I did typo 2995. Ooh, it's the future. Yeah, this is what that's the when the remake happens. Anyways, the main casts include Morgan Freeman, Brad Pitt, Gwen F. Paltrow, Kevin Spacey, and R. Lee Ermi. So a little bit of history behind the film, guys. The story of the 1995, uh, let's see, make sure I'm doing it right. The story of the 1995 Neo-Noir Psychological Thriller 7 began with screenwriter Andrew Kevin Walker. While living in New York City during the late 1980s, Walker struggled to break into the film industry and found the overwhelming urban crime, bleak atmosphere, and grindy past deeply depressing. Channeling his frustration into a story, he crafted a spec script about two detectives pursuing a serial killer who uses the seven deadly sins as his motif. The project was picked up by New Line Cinema and produced by Arnold Kopelson and Phyllis Carly. David Fincher came on board as director, a pivotal moment considering Fincher was so burned out by his tremendous tumulus, I'm sorry, experience directing Alien 3 that he was initially hesitant to direct another feature film. The cast and career film features an ensemble cast that capture at pivotal inflection points in their respective careers. Brad Pitt. Pitt was a rapidly rising heartthrob, transitioning into a serious leading man following breakout roles in Thelma and Louise, A River Runs Through It, and Legends of the Fall. Morgan Freeman was an established, universally revered veteran actor coming off of an Oscar nominee performance in the Shaw Shink Redemption, which you guys better check out that branch point special we already did, uh, lending profound gravitas and world weary wisdom to the role. Gwynnef Paucho was an emerging talent whose emotional performance provided the film's moral core shortly before her superstar turning points in Emma and Shakespeare in Love. Kevin Spacey was a respected actor, character actor on the brink of superstardom, having just starred in The Usual Suspects earlier the same year. Here's some behind-the-scenes fun fact, guys. When New Line Cinema sent the script to David Fincher, they accidentally sent him Walker's original draft containing the shocking head-in-the-box ending rather than the studio's revised action-heavy draft. Fincher fell in love with the original dark conclusion and refused to direct anything unless it stayed. Brad Pitt stood firmly beside Fincher, making the retention of the original ending a non-negotiable clause in his contract. To keep the killer's identity a surprise, Kevin Spacey was deliberately omitted from all pre-release promotional posters, trailers, and opening credits, instead, receiving top billing in the end credits. And the cinematographer Darius utilized a rare silver retention process, bleach bypass on the film stock to deepen the shadows and create the oppressive, rain-drenched, morally decayed city aesthetic that defined the film's mood. So produced on a modest budget of approximately $33 million to $34 million, Seven became a massive commercial blockbuster earning $327.3 million worldwide and staying at the top of the North American box office for four consecutive weeks. Critical acclaim followed this commercial success. On Rotten Tomatoes, the film holds an oppressive 84% score from critics and 95% score from audience, cementing its status as an enduring audience favorite. Seven fundamentally reshaped Hollywood's approach to dark philosoph psychological thrillers and police procedurals throughout the late 90s and early 2000s. It proved that mainstream audiences would respond enthusiastically to uncompromisingly grim, artful short or shot cinema with unconventional endings. The film firmly launched David Fincher to an upper um part of modern autours, uh establishing his trademark, visual style, and dark thematic tone. Its influence can be directly seen in modern crime procedurals, TV series like True Detective and Mindhunter, graphic design title sequences, and horror thriller franchises like Saw.

SPEAKER_00 1:43:06

One of your favorites.

SPEAKER_04 1:43:08

Yeah, yeah. Saw is, with all of its faults as being gore porn, basically, it still has a really unique story behind it that deals with the psychological stuff like Seven does. It's just you gotta sometimes to its fault it gets real gory, and some of that stuff is like I can go without, you know. I wish the Saw movies would tend to pull back on that stuff, but at the same time, it's thrilling, it's fun, and that's what you know. It's part of its staple now, yeah. It kind of started a whole new genre of its own, too.

SPEAKER_02 1:43:38

So all right. So, Mom, would you like to read the official synopsis here?

SPEAKER_00 1:43:43

Two detract two detectives try to track down a serial killer who chooses his victims based on the seven deadly sins.

SPEAKER_04 1:43:51

So basically, this is part of how the story goes, guys, is seven is a neo-noir psychological thriller following two homicide detectives tracking a sadistic serial killer. The killer meticulously murders his victims based on the seven deadly sins. The film is celebrated for its grim, rainy, atmospheric depiction of a decaying, unnamed city. The story unfolds over seven days as disenchanted and about to retire detective William Somerset, played by Morgan Freeman, is but is partnered with the young, short-tempered, and idealistic detective David Mills, played by Brad Pitt. Together they are thrust into a series of gruesome crime scenes where the killer John Doe orchestrates murders representing each of the seven deadly sins. So, yes, twisty turny fun kind of movie. Yeah. Spoilers ahead, guys. If you've ever seen this movie, you should go watch it. Um, because we're gonna tell you things that you don't want to know before you see it. So just forewarn if you're watching this for the first time, you've never seen seven, we are going to ruin it for you. So you've been warned. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:44:54

All right. So, guys, we're just gonna dive right into our favorite part of the the podcast. Usually, whenever we do these retrospectives, this is our deep dives. So, uh, casting and performance, the best performance. What would you say is the best performance for you, mom?

SPEAKER_06 1:45:13

Huh.

SPEAKER_02 1:45:14

I'm gonna start off and say Gweneth Paltr, how she was able to take her head off her body, put it in a box, and then be able to put it right back on. That's feats I've never seen an actor do before. It's truly awe-inspiring. Good job, Gwen. Oh boy. Anyways, that that humorous side, guys.

SPEAKER_00 1:45:37

Well, I am a lover of um Morgan Friedman. So um it's hard for me to anything he's in to not plug him top notch. So he I just like him. I do like Brad Pitt, though. I like a lot of the stuff he's done. So Morgan's got he's just got it. Yeah, he plays that guy just trying to settle it all and and yeah, dividing himself from this job because he's he wants to be out the door.

SPEAKER_06 1:46:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:46:03

But he he really just starts enjoying as much as he doesn't like this kid, he takes him on as this new detective is he starts to get they get on each each other's skin enough to become friends towards the end.

SPEAKER_06 1:46:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:46:18

That's kind of fun to watch that evolve.

SPEAKER_04 1:46:21

Um I I'm gonna have to echo that. Morgan Freeman, I struggle because it's like, you know, do I want to say he's his best role in Shaw Shank? He was the best in that, but he's also the best in this movie. Like he once I realized, in my personal opinion, how I take this movie. So I think what's interesting about a movie like Seven is we all could take it a different way because it could be just very surface and scary and fun, or you really look at some of the deep stuff going on, you know, or or it might not be your cup of tea sometimes. But I feel like this movie is more about him than anybody else. And I and I feel like you're following him when when you get to the end and it looks like Brad Pitt's the target, quote unquote, which we'll talk about a little bit a little later. But like it when you really watch this movie though, it you're really watching the story of him. I don't think it's a mistake that the opening scene of this movie is a calm, quiet moment in his apartment before we see him at a first crime scene, and then we see him with Brad Pitt. It's like we we tend to be more through the eyes of Morgan than everybody else. We really don't see a lot of Mills' apartment and through their eyes of what their normal day life is, but we see his. They take the time to show us that he throws a knife at the dartboard when he's thinking, that he sleeps with a certain thing. Like little oddities that you get to know someone because he's living alone, there's no one to interact with. But the stuff you see at Brad's is so they keep that so minute because they want you to feel that pressure and that um maybe anger and even that the the scariness of what happened to her at the end, right? So I think they wanted to keep that mysterious and for that reason. And I think that is speaking more to Morgan as we go through the favorite scenes and stuff. I do think this is more of a tale of him and someone that's cynical, that is very much like John Doe, if you think about it. Sometimes I think the conversation they have in the car when John's spouting out, how can you call these people innocent? You know, one's a whore and this and that. I think Morgan feels the same way. I think he actually would have agreed with him. Maybe not, but the thing is he's seeing a mirror there. And I think that that's why at the end he stays as a cop because he realizes he's looking at it wrong, you know. And uh there's another scene we'll talk about that kind of enforces this. But I think Morgan Freeman himself, though, just man, what nuance he can do. Yeah. Like there's times I've watched movies. I don't know about you guys, but we've seen a lot of movies of Morgan, right? You've probably seen quite a few. Yeah. He's got a good handful of movies where he just goes the distance, isn't it? Yeah, all the time. It's so good. Then there's times where you watch a movie and he's just playing Morgan Freeman, you know? And you're like, okay, you just the voice and the guy, you know, that's cool. That's but it's more towards the end of it, more towards now. But man, when he puts it on, like back, there's a handful of movies in a row that you're just like, this guy, you mean you can learn stuff from this too, watching an act. I am so I he's gonna he's gonna be the best performance for me for sure. I mean, this movie doesn't have any bad performances.

SPEAKER_02 1:49:21

I was just gonna say it's hard, it's hard to say that. And Brad Pitt, I feel you could definitely tell he's more he's very young in his career in doing this, and I could tell how serious of a role he's trying to take this. So I will I will give him some props there. Uh he he does a really good job at his part. This is before he became the superstar that we know of him now, really.

SPEAKER_04 1:49:42

This kind of was probably the stepping stone to that. Yep.

SPEAKER_02 1:49:45

Yeah. Yeah. All right, most surprising performance for you guys.

SPEAKER_00 1:49:50

Surprising performance?

SPEAKER_02 1:49:52

Is there any of them that you're like, oh wow, that was actually really cool. Uh what they did there and things like that.

SPEAKER_06 1:50:00

I don't know. I'm gonna give this to Brad Pitt.

SPEAKER_04 1:50:03

Because for as much as I love Seven back when we saw it, I always thought my first few watches of the movie, I always thought that Brad was that actor that wasn't quite good enough yet. I got the same feeling that Brad that I got from Leonardo DiCaprio and Titanic. Where I do think there are other actors that could have played Jack. And I thought there was other actors that could play Brad's part in this. But then I got thinking about it, and Leo is perfect for Jack if you think about it. And then, especially if you see him a bunch of times, you kind of realize who else could have done some of the stuff he's doing. And then with Brad, I kind of also realized that he and I saw an interview about him talking about this too, and I think it was kind of what changed my mind. And so when I watched Seven Sense then, those several times, uh, I realized what he was doing. He made it very clear, him and Fincher talked about it. He made it very, very clear that he wanted to play this role like James Dean was playing the role. So then when you start looking at the mannerisms or like some of the word choicing of when he says things, you're kind of like, oh, that's if James Dean was around and was to make this movie, that's how he'd be. Very physical, you know, doing a lot of things, always moving, slouching a lot, making odd jokes, kind of like swearing in a weird way. Like sometimes he uses swear words. Like, I mean, that's not how you use that word. You know what I mean? Like, and it, and that's that's if you'll look at old James Dean stuff, that's how he always was. He's always kind of, you know, with a cigarette. And it's and so he kind of brought that to it with this character. And he says, because he feels like that's the only way someone's gonna believe I'm from the Midwest, and that I'm a good guy, is if I come across as someone that's very nonchalant about the place I live. And then the character was built around that. Because if you notice in this movie, like in the very beginning, when they're walking down the street talking, and he's saying to Morgan, or Morgan says to him, Why did you why are you here? Like, why'd you choose here? Why here? You notice when they're walking, people are walking by Morgan and around him, but he's bumping into everybody as he's walking through because he's so out of place from where he is. And he wanted to bring that physicality like that to make this feel that way. And I think he made certain choices that what looks like an actor that might have not been ready for a meaty role like this, I think is an actor taking a real big swing at a way of doing it. And there's a couple scenes where his true acting shines through where you realize, oh, this guy's not just like, you know, he's not messing this movie up, he's just these moments are being held. Because of course, the end when he's holding a gun to him, it says some how you act that. You know, you gotta act like you just heard your wife was beheaded and she had a baby and you didn't know about it, and you're trying to decide if you're gonna shoot this guy. And then there you go, action. It's like, I mean, it's like, well, I mean, hmm, what do you do? And I think he made choices that were really interesting. You know, and and and then earlier when they're talking in the bar, you know, he kind of gives him that whole, I think you're quitting, you know, or I think you want to think that because you're quitting, you're not quitting because of it. You know what I mean? And I and he but he gives a look that's like, oh, there's an actor right there. So I realized that it's just uh it's a gimmick, and he's using it for this story. So it surprised me that I didn't like Brad in this movie at first, but it made the movie okay because Morgan was good enough to now without him, I can't see this movie working. So I I kind of put that there for that reason.

SPEAKER_02 1:53:21

That's really compelling reason. That's really good. That's really good. Um, I can't say of any surprise performances that hit me uh too much, other than I I mean, I'm gonna give this to Kevin Spacey, this this spot here, because um say what you want about him in hindsight with uh any of the personal scandals that may have happened since this movie or you know, in the past recent years. I know he's trying to make a career resurgence and things like that, but there is a reason why he was a big name, and this movie proves it. He is captivating at every moment that he's on when you find out the moment he's John Doe, spoiler alert. Um, it is it is really cool. And he the the way he talks, his mannerisms, he is this method actor that is so compelling. I have not seen one Kevin Spacey movie that I don't like. Oh, yeah, he's he is power that he's a great, great actor. And if it wasn't for the blacklisting of any personal scandals that allegedly happened, I will say as a legal side note here, he has not been found guilty in a court of law.

SPEAKER_04 1:54:33

He's actually found not guilty, actually.

SPEAKER_02 1:54:35

Yes, 13 times not found guilty. So, guys, even though it would there, could there be something there? Maybe, maybe not. The the point is by either a jury of his peers or a judge, they did not find any evidence was compelling enough to say this guy did uh something so egregious it was unlawful type thing. So, whatever you personally think of him aside, his acting ability, his talent, that is uh that's uncomparable. That is amazing because in this movie is really good because of it. So I'm putting him as my most surprising performance. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:55:15

That's cool.

SPEAKER_02 1:55:16

Yeah. So uh do you have a surprise performance or not uh not really?

SPEAKER_00 1:55:21

I just they're both good. So you know, uh it's hard to look past Morgan.

SPEAKER_02 1:55:26

Oh he's such a good actor.

SPEAKER_00 1:55:29

He is all right.

SPEAKER_02 1:55:29

Is there any weak performances you would give at all in this movie?

SPEAKER_04 1:55:34

So I usually try to hold myself to the fire of this one and have to come up with one because I even if it's for a stupid reason, I always try, but I can't think of one in this movie.

SPEAKER_00 1:55:44

Well, there's not that many actors that they focus on. Most of them are dead when you do I mean yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, the the the victims are all.

SPEAKER_04 1:55:55

Yeah, but yeah, I guess I I have a hard time with it because there, like you said, there's so few to choose from. Yeah. And the ones that are in it, being a Fincher film, which Fincher's real good for doing, is they even I could argue maybe Gwyneth Peltrose was probably the weakest because she had the less, but she's also she's also a symbol in this movie, so it's not there's a purpose behind her. More than yeah, there's a purpose of the lack of her. And so I can't say that because what she did was very successful and what they want you to feel.

SPEAKER_00 1:56:28

Yeah. But in saying that though, it's forgotten that she what is what joins those two together.

SPEAKER_04 1:56:35

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:56:36

Because Morgan does find her find favor in her.

SPEAKER_04 1:56:41

Well, we we find out the truth of him through her, right? Yes, right.

SPEAKER_00 1:56:44

And so they have a lot more in common than he has in common with the detec young detective. That's right. Because she wants out of that city and he wants out of that city, and they see that city as being the demise for both of them. And she's heartbroken that she's there. And she turns to him to say she's pregnant. Doesn't even tell her husband. So there's I liked what happened there. I wish there was more of that.

SPEAKER_04 1:57:08

Yes, me too. And well, I'm gonna tell you why that scene is probably the most important scene of the movie when we get there. But yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:57:15

All right. So uh casting wins and misses, I I feel like I could speak for all of us and say everything's a win. I don't see any misses at all.

SPEAKER_04 1:57:23

I think the only one I'd point out the most is the biggest win is Kevin was a big win. Like it was a surprising role, but to me, I you know, I'd switch that around a little. I think the win in this was not having him in the marketing stuff, was keeping him it quiet. Surprise at the end. Yep. Where we don't, it's not a movie where you've met the killer until you meet him. Like it's when you see him, it's a whole different guy. And and I like that. And then when you do see him, it's someone you recognize. So, oh that's cool. You know, I didn't even know he was in this movie.

SPEAKER_00 1:57:53

So it adds that level of jaw-dropping movie. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:57:56

Oh, yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:57:56

That he brings it in. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:57:58

And then everything sense of him showing up at the precinct turn himself in to stand is like whoa, whoa. Yeah, it's a whole different, it's like another movie.

SPEAKER_02 1:58:06

It's yeah, it's so good. Yeah, uh, any missed opportunities or wasted potential, you guys would think.

SPEAKER_04 1:58:11

Nope.

SPEAKER_00 1:58:12

No.

SPEAKER_04 1:58:12

There was 24 hours ago I had a different answer, but now I have none. Not a thing.

SPEAKER_00 1:58:18

Yeah, it's it's no, they follow through on every one of those deadly sins all the way to so you understood exactly what that was all about.

SPEAKER_02 1:58:25

What that means too. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:58:27

So if you miss it and you watch the movie and you're missing it, you need to rewatch and really focus because it is right there.

SPEAKER_04 1:58:32

Yeah, this is a movie where if you gotta go pee, pause it. Because you got it.

SPEAKER_02 1:58:36

Even little nuanced scenes mean a lot. Yeah, yeah. All right, so direction and production. What do you guys think of the directing style, the cinematography and visual effects, whenever they had action scenes, how was the quality for you? You know, things like that.

SPEAKER_00 1:58:50

Uh I think it was too much rain.

SPEAKER_02 1:58:53

But it's really wet in that city.

SPEAKER_00 1:58:55

One of the things I didn't like about the movie when I watched it the very first time was I couldn't tell where it happened, was happening. But now that I've watched it a few more times, that is part of the game of the movie, is it could be anywhere. And it just happened to be any could be in any city. It just happened to be nowhere.

SPEAKER_02 1:59:15

Made it feel not make you feel not safe.

SPEAKER_00 1:59:17

In any city.

SPEAKER_02 1:59:18

Yeah. Yeah. You know, that's I'm glad you you mentioned that because I remember before this movie started, and um even in reading the uh history behind the film and everything in the full story, you guys were talking about how is this New York City? Is this LA? There are times it looks like California, sometimes it looks like New York. You really are not sure. But it they purposely, intentionally left this as an undisclosed city. It's just a city. It wasn't important to know, like what you said. This could happen anywhere. It wasn't important to know, oh, this is what New York City's like, guys, this is what LA's like. This is just what's out there. This like this could be anywhere. This could be any city.

SPEAKER_00 2:00:00

There's a part at the very beginning of the show where they show um, I think it's Morgan, when behind him is a bunch of newspapers, or maybe it's Pitt. And I'm the next time I watch it, I'm gonna pause it to see if there is a name.

SPEAKER_04 2:00:14

Oh, yeah, that'd be nice to see.

SPEAKER_00 2:00:16

Yeah, yeah, good newspapers. I'm thinking there's gotta be a name. And there's yeah, and there's badges on people while they're standing at doors. I want to pause it and see if it says like Seattle, like Washington, the state of Washington. That's where there's a lot of rain.

SPEAKER_04 2:00:29

Because even the cops, they have their PD things. Sometimes it says like NY thing. Yeah, they just say PD. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:00:34

It's like it doesn't seem like I'm just wondering if somebody has it on and I just we're missing it, you know.

SPEAKER_02 2:00:40

Yeah, yeah. Cause I I I specifically remember hearing on here that it said that in an undisclosed city. Like that's that's pretty cool. That's that means you don't get distracted by where you're at. You know what I mean? Yes. Like you're just you're forced to just focus on the story, and then the story isn't a New York City or LA exclusive type thing where people can say, Oh, but that only happens in New York. Be like, that I feel like that was probably intentional if they did it that way.

SPEAKER_04 2:01:08

Oh, it definitely was intentional. Yeah, his his intentions of this is definitely he he wanted you to think this could be your city. That's why when you watch and you're like, boy, some of the architecture looks like Chicago. It does. And then there's times like that. Look, that's definitely New York. And then there's times like where they're going right now, is that's California.

SPEAKER_00 2:01:25

Well, at the end of seeing where it's desert. Definitely not Chicago. Yeah. And it's definitely not New York.

SPEAKER_04 2:01:30

Yeah, it's nothing like that. Where is this place?

SPEAKER_00 2:01:32

Right?

SPEAKER_02 2:01:33

You can even argue it's like looks like Nevada or Arizona in that part of the stuff.

SPEAKER_04 2:01:40

And it's like, oof, that's scary. That is, right? And that's what that's what the whole idea, I think, is behind that. Yeah, it's very interesting because the city is like a character of its own in this, and it doesn't even have a name. Yeah, it's an unknown name. But you feel like, and that's how he structured this movie, which comes down, he only he even tells this story in the production of it. When you're in this movie, you're watching the confusion of the movie, the times where they're lost, and they don't know who John Doe or they don't know what they're looking for. It's where city streets, it's pouring rain. It's like you're in the dark of it, right? Yeah. So then when you get to the end, you notice that the rain stops and then there's open, clear, and it's like there's no city. It's because it's the clarity of the story is happening. So he's doing that on purpose, like almost like making you be in the mode of what you're about to receive as you're receiving it. You know, the darker it gets, the more confusing the things are. The more lighter and the and the less rain there is, the more there's it's no coincidence it stops raining after he turns himself in, right? Yeah, because it's almost like that cloud is gone now. And now he's you're now you're gonna see the clearness of what this all is, literally, even around you, which is wild. It's smart, you know. The music's the same way. That's the very little CGI in this, if any. He's known to use some background CGI to fix things, and they say it's almost unrecognizable. You can't even tell. So there's some background stuff probably that he did some CGI with, but you don't even know. You know, it's like he's done this a lot in a lot of his movies. And also the acting or the action stuff, they most of these guys did their own stunts, which is even cooler. Um, I do believe uh if the story's true, I hope it is Kevin Spacey in the running scene when they were chasing him. Kevin even played him then. They didn't have a stunt double. He even played him during that, even though he had a six face. One to keep it very authentic to the feet. That's nice. That's cool. Um and music is Trat Reznor, Nine Snails, he just comes through it and he does the opening credits music, and then the rest of the movie he just chooses to do these low bass kind of aesthetic that just makes you feel, you know, dread constantly. Like it's coming. Yes, what's next? It's just creeping up on you slow, whatever it is. So yeah, I mean, what a well-shot movie. And he's been known to, like I told you guys that night, 90 to 100 something takes. Every take. I don't know if I could work with Fetcher. I uh he does good movies, and but they a lot of them do say it's challenging. No, but he will do, he'll sit there, do it again, do it again, and he'll just stop and you'll think Jake Gillen also says working with him. You think he makes you feel like you suck because he's just okay, do it again. He finally they had he had a breakdown on set when he did Zodiac with him. And he goes, What is it that I'm not doing? He goes, You're you're fine. It's the guy behind you. He keeps walking three steps further than I want him to. It's little stuff like that. He wants it fixed, he wants that perfect. And then he also says the perfect take is somewhere in the middle. It's like after the 50th take and before the 90th take, it's perfect because you're doing it so much, you're almost sick of it and you act more natural. That's how he wants you to feel.

SPEAKER_02 2:04:46

Uh, that's that's genius. You know what I mean? But yeah, it's smart, but oh boy. Um hard to work, but that's a lot of time.

SPEAKER_04 2:04:56

They take a lot of shot shooting.

SPEAKER_02 2:04:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 2:04:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:04:59

All right. So this is usually where we get to our hot takes part of the the review, guys. So, Ike, do you have a hot take? Because I am struggling to come up with one. Yeah, I don't I don't have a hot take.

SPEAKER_04 2:05:10

Um, I I do want to share a fun hot take from the internet, though, that I've read a lot about that I thought mom would find funny. And that you would too, now that you've seen it, maybe you'll see this comedy on it. There is a hot take online right now that's gotten real popular about seven in the last few years, where they're all trying to piece together where they think Morgan Freeman was in cahoots with John Doe the whole time.

SPEAKER_00 2:05:32

Oh, really?

SPEAKER_04 2:05:33

Yeah. Where they're like, it's always Morgan that's kind of pushing the directions that they're going. It's like like he was he's the one, Morgan's the one that gave him the information on David, and like it's like him that did it the whole time with him. And I'm just like, I can't see it.

SPEAKER_00 2:05:48

Well, at the end, he says your detectives were more than open to tell me.

SPEAKER_04 2:05:53

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:05:54

They're yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:05:55

Yeah. Interesting. They have a lot of there's a couple moments. I'm like, that's a good, that's a cool little, but it's really it's when you watch the movie, it's very far-fetched. Yeah. Yeah. I think so at least. You know what I mean? I don't think it's Huh.

SPEAKER_00 2:06:07

I'll have to watch the movie with that in mind to see if I catch little things.

SPEAKER_04 2:06:10

I think it's so I think it's got people trying to overthink some of it. Yeah. You know, maybe I don't know. There's certain ways he acts in it that makes people, then he wouldn't do this in the movie. You know what I mean? Like there's certain things that he wouldn't do, I think. But at the same time, I don't know. If that's the case, it's an awful movie. Because it doesn't, it's not obvious. You have to wanted you to think that they did not.

SPEAKER_02 2:06:31

Sounds like they're overanalyzing that a little bit. Yeah. I guess the only thing I would say in real relates to a hot take, it's not going to be much of a hot take for you guys because you've watched this movie so many times, but for me, watching it for the first time, um, this is my my uh score is often gonna be different than your guys's, but I guess the hot take would be this is the original psychological thrillers. Nowadays we see people getting more amped up on, oh, it needs to be another twist here, something else here. But I guess the real hot take in all this is this is the movie that started it. This is the first time they're able to do this. Is this thriller? Is this horror? We're not really sure. It's somewhere in the middle, but it's a thought-provoking provoking movie. Every body that they come across, you are starting to self-analyze how much gluttony do I have, how much greed do I have, how much lust do I have. They take it to the extreme in what they do in this in this movie.

SPEAKER_01 2:07:38

Just watch it enjoy. Poor kid.

SPEAKER_02 2:07:44

But you know what I mean. Like that this is this movie is meant to be thought-provoking, and um it's it's definitely something where um even if you may feel a little bored at times here watching it because you're used to the new newer pace of things in the 2020s now. Um definitely take a take a watch at this and reflect back on when these things all started.

SPEAKER_04 2:08:07

Yeah, so this was this when when you said that, it's I think we talked about this a tad bit the one of the night, but like, yeah, it's the first of its kind in the sense of what they decided to do with the film. Because there's a lot of noors before this, and a lot in like the 60s and 50s, there's a ton of these detectives looking for bad guy noors that even about serial killers, and and then the horror side of it, there's a ton of like you know, slashers and killer movies that are gory and stuff. This was the first movie though to take that gore feeling and try to put you in the front seat of it by giving you a look into like what the stuff really looks like. Because before the noise, you wouldn't see the dead body, it'd always be it happened, right? This time the he kind of is this was the most realistic to real life than any of them had been before. And that's I think that's where it changed, it kind of I wouldn't say it's necessarily the first of its kind, but it definitely changed the genre to why they're made the way they are today. And unfortunately, we're way far now over where when you watch a movie about a serial killer, people want to see guts and things flying. And it's like, no, we don't need to do that, but they do it now. And so eventually, that's why when some like true detective comes out, it's like, oh, thank you. Back to this feeling of an actual, you know, investigation with scary elements. So this was one of the first, though, that definitely took the chance to go that distance with it, you know.

SPEAKER_02 2:09:38

I actually would say some of the most scariest elements of this film is not seeing them get killed. Yep. You're only when you you're approaching everybody, every crime scene after it happens through the eyes of Morgan Freeman and Brad Pitt. And they're they're describing like the coroner's describing how this guy died, or the one guy's describing how he killed the girl, you know, things like that. And you are literally left to your imagination to fill in those blanks and paint the picture. And that alone can be just as terrifying as actually seeing it.

SPEAKER_04 2:10:13

Yeah, Fitcher let you scare yourself. Yes, really, is what he kind of did. Yeah. He's like, Look, this is the tool this guy wore on his waist, and this is what he said he did. Think about it. Yeah, whoa, boom. Yeah. Or or we don't see the wife for a long time, and now we know her head's in the box. And then he describes what he was doing. Now you're thinking about what that was like for her. Yeah. After seeing how innocent she was, right? And then, or any of it, you're right. It's just all about you are now imagining what these people went through and what was happening, you know.

SPEAKER_02 2:10:42

And yeah, that's scary in and of itself, which is really, really quite genius to do that. All right, guys. So, best scene of the movie. Is there a scene that sticks out to you that you're like, oh, hands down, I'll never forget that scene. That's just so good how they did it.

SPEAKER_00 2:11:00

The one it's on right now is my favorite scene.

SPEAKER_04 2:11:02

Isn't that funny how every time the scene comes out for somebody?

SPEAKER_00 2:11:06

Yeah, that's a I love the subway. It does say subway. Right? Yes. Yeah, so there you go. So that starts to narrow down some cities. Not all cities are subways. Yeah. Um and they laugh about it. Yeah, and they just throw their heads back and laugh.

SPEAKER_02 2:11:25

Yeah, this scene in front of the um there's for our our audience that's yeah. Our audio audience right here, this is the scene where they're uh just their Gwen F Paucho invited them, him, Morgan Freeman over, and they're just talking, they're getting to know one another, they're having laughs, you know, things like that.

SPEAKER_00 2:11:42

And this well, this whole thing it cuts away from the rain, the the craziness, him playing with the dogs in the one room. That's just crazy. In the city where they are, how they walk in these two big dogs. I mean, she's yeah, it's just I always thought the dog scene was a little like, really, why are you? Throwing that in with him going because the dogs don't meet everybody, they're stuck in a room. And he's in there playing these houses the boys, and he goes in. He's wrestling with these, look like Danes.

SPEAKER_04 2:12:10

Yeah, I mean, yeah, Danes.

SPEAKER_00 2:12:11

They're big dogs, bigger dogs. Yeah. And oh my gosh. I thought that was just where'd that come from? You know?

SPEAKER_04 2:12:18

Well, throwing that and coming from the Midwest, they're really putting in your face like they're coming from a whole different life. Yeah, that's true. Yeah. It's normal to have dogs like that. And then you come here and it's like, oh man. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:12:30

Which plays into one of the themes of this for Gweneth Paltrow is that she doesn't like this city and she misses what she had before, but he is very ambitious in his career, and there's an opening, and he picked this place because there's more action, there's more stuff going on.

SPEAKER_04 2:12:46

It wants to make a difference.

SPEAKER_02 2:12:48

Yes. And it's the same reason why Morgan Freeman wants out. He's seen enough action. He has no more hope for the city. It's lost. He doesn't even want to live there anymore. So it's quite the dining yin-gang yang there.

SPEAKER_04 2:13:01

Since we're on that topic, I'm I'll tell you, I have three scenes specifically that are that I think are uh essential from this film that are all three of the best. Um the dinner scene, which is the one we're watching right now, and then the diner scene where he's talking with her about the pregnancy. And then I also think the bar scene towards the end after the lust thing, and they're sitting there and they have the little argument about good and bad, and like you know, whether it's worth trying, and they get into each other's face about it. I think this film, when I say it's more about Morgan, um it's you I touched on this with you. One of my problems with this movie is I always wondered why when they interrupted John Doe and they found his apartment and he had to call them and tell them that now my my plans have changed because of what you've done. You know, there's a version of this movie where they don't find him. And let's say Mills never shows up.

SPEAKER_00 2:13:55

There is a version?

SPEAKER_04 2:13:56

Well, no, there isn't. But I'm just saying, have you ever thought about what would have happened if like what was the original plan? Because it wasn't taking Mills' wife. You know what I mean? Like it's because he he started this a year ago. Like he started putting this in motion a year ago when he when he tied that guy to the bed.

SPEAKER_06 2:14:12

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:14:13

So he knew what he was going to do that long ago at least. If you think about when he started this plan, the first thing he did was capture that guy, put him in his bed, and start setting up that apartment the way it was. Because everything else subsequently started happening. And it's not a coincidence that it happens, it's seven deadly sins, and it's the last seven days of Morgan's job. Yeah. So he I think he's preaching to him specifically. I think he's and he wants to preach to everybody. But if there's anyone that he knows that they don't tell us in the film that they don't make obvious to us, I don't think it's not that he knows him personally, but I think he on he knows him as because Morgan comes off as that guy that gets the job done. Yep. Yeah. Remember what he said to the guy, he says, hey, you haven't even finished all your cases before. He was they went to come as close to possible being finished. Yep. Which means he has closed some cases, big ones. Yeah. And then he's very well regarded or he wouldn't want him to stay. Yep. I I just think that it's I think he was choosing him to preach to, which is why later on in the car, when they're having their conversation and he leans up and he's kind of talking to Mills and egging him on, there's a moment where while he's talking to him, he out of the corner of his eye, he looks at Morgan through the thing because he wants him to pay attention, not Mills. He wants Morgan to pay attention to what he's saying because he knows Morgan knows what he's talking about. And Morgan at some point agrees with him because that's basically what he says throughout this whole movie is people do awful things to each other. They're awful people. People don't deserve this kind of crap. You know, it's like he's giving up on it, he's willing to walk away, and whether his whatever his gifts are or his ability, ability to make a difference, he's just completely given up on them. When you watch how he tells his boss in the beginning about the guy that got his eyes stabbed out, he's just like, How can you like you want me to stay here? This just happened two blocks away from where we are.

SPEAKER_06 2:16:04

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_04 2:16:05

Like this place sucks. You know what I mean? Like, and he's not he's not wrong. But Mills isn't wrong either. You know, Mills is a guy who he represents good the manifestation of someone that's going to make a difference, and she represents the innocence that he protects, which is why he is that so much. So he Mills is an incorruptible good guy, really. You know, all I mean he's a hi-head, but it's all out of passion. It's not he's not a mean person, he's passionate, and so he is that spot. And I think when they interrupt Kevin Spacey or John Doe's plan, whatever plan he had before they had started and put in motion, he throws out the window because he sees this dynamic between them two, and he wants to see who Mills is. And that's when he that's the decision that he makes is when he sees her, it's like, oh yeah, this is this will prove my this will prove my point more to him because it's more personal. So instead of whatever I was gonna do before, which we have no idea, if you think about it, they probably saved a couple people's lives and even know it, you know what I mean? Really, right? Because he he was putting whatever he had put into motion, what was he gonna do? Yeah, you know, who was gonna be wrath and envy? You know, was it always gonna be him and someone else? I don't think so. I think his plans went right up until they kicked in his door. And then after that, it was like, hmm. And what used to bother me, because I'm thinking, how do you just bounce back like that? It feels unrealistic. But now I realize it's the more genius of him to do it. Yeah. Because it's now he's smart enough to know I can come at this guy in a more personal level, and that's what he does, you know. And I I kind of wrote a thing down, not a big thing, but here, but it was like a the apartment scene, I think, is very essential because it's you know showing Mill's life, it showcases how brutally innocent she is. You know what I mean? Like it's she's so innocent, you almost want to step on her. Like it's like, but but it's like the characters they kind of see each other as fellow humans at some point. You know what I mean? It's there's a strange bond. Uh the answer to the whole moral question in this movie is like when they're talking in the bar and they're talking about how you know that's there's people that are good and that people, you know, we'll treat each other nice and it's worth protecting, and that's why I'm here because I am gonna make a difference. And he's just like, no, that's not that's not my experience. But through the movie itself, their actions alone is showing exactly how he's wrong. Because just him having these personal conversations with him, having to work with him and forcing himself to work with him, and her making them see each other in a different light than just at work and in that confrontation makes it personal and adds that feeling to it that he feels bad for him at the end. And that's when he realized he literally makes a friend, really kind of with this guy in a way. And like so, through their actions of just that's the answer. If you think the world is shitty, it's because people aren't taking a time enough to get to know each other. And he's they're forced to get to know each other, and it's opened his mind up to that. And then he also, part way through this movie, she helped him with that because she made him expose out loud to her and made him say, which why he why he threw the thing across the room and he didn't want to sleep with that, what's that called a that little paludrome or whatever it is, or he threw it across the room and he's throwing the dark knife at the board. That's all after all that stuff happened and after the the argument they had. It also has a lot to do with what she said to him at the diner, and he had to admit to her that he talked his ex into having an abortion, and he's admitting that he's part of the problem that he's even sick of. He is one of these deadly sins as well, and it's made him realize that. So, if anything, them two bonding and having to work together completely worked against John Doe's idea of what he wanted him to understand. Because Pitt proved to him that there is something is worth fighting for, and it's really she was the manifestation of that. So when you get to the end and he shoots her, it's kind of shoots him, it's kind of like, yeah, for me. John Doe won.

SPEAKER_00 2:20:08

I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 2:20:09

Oh, I know. I go I go deep. John Doe won, but it really kind of saved his life, and the cynicalness of him is is leaving. Because he even says at the end, you know, what do you say, the whole Hemiway quote, where it's like the world is a fine place and it's worth fighting for. He says, I believe with it, I believe the second part. See the beginning of the movie, he didn't believe the second part, that's why he's leaving.

SPEAKER_00 2:20:29

So you think he retired?

SPEAKER_04 2:20:30

No, I think he stayed. I think he said, I'm around. I think he realized Mills is right. There is something to live for and fight for, which Mills was, in his mind, someone that he felt bad for and he they got to know each other. And I think that was kind of the answer to this, where all this everyone's so disjointed from each other all the time. Yeah. And it's like, and so people like John Doe are psychos. You know what I'm saying? I know I go too deep sometimes. No, you're good. But like it's it's just it's to me it's never seen this movie this year. To me, that's kind of how it how it goes. You know, it's like that you know, him he kind of shows himself in that dinner scene, just you know, he kind of gives it away. Like, I don't know. Is it too deep, you guys think?

SPEAKER_02 2:21:11

Or I mean I kind of no, no. I love when you go into deep dives because uh that's why I can't wait for us to talk about Black Panther. I got a lot of philosophical deep dives for that movie, anyways. Yeah, I mean it's mom's like, huh?

SPEAKER_03 2:21:26

I mean, there's a ton of things. I mean, I just like the movie.

SPEAKER_04 2:21:28

You kind of look at how Mills it's he's so it's much more impactful when you realize that Mills doesn't carry any guilt with him, you know. He thinks he's gonna do the right thing always, and he's he even referred to himself and to his wife. He called himself Serpico. Marisa Serpico's gotta go to work, and she says something about something funny about it back and called it Serpico as well. And Serpico is a movie about a good cop with bad cops trying to do the right thing. So it's like there's all these elements to like even in their conversations that are real heavy, that it's that's kind of what makes it even more tragic. Is that this it's more, it's sad to say, it's more tragic that he loses the goodness that he has at the end more than her actually being killed. I mean, it's awful, but there's a double-sided sword today, right? I think that's kind of what that is.

SPEAKER_02 2:22:18

And well, that was the choice he made because yes, he lost her, but the choice was are you gonna become wrath, are you not? And him making that decision, which any logical person probably would say, Yeah, you you not only killed my wife, you tortured her, you cut your head off, and you're taunting me with it. Like, yeah, you deserve the death penalty. I get it. But that proved that you you let the bad guy win, that not only was his innocence gone, but he himself now is forever changed in in doing what he did out of revenge and what happened. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:22:54

So at the same time, saved his life from going spiraling into thinking there's nothing worth it in the world anymore. Yes, but but he needed to he needed to put a mirror to himself and admit the whole I talked somebody into an abortion. That I mean, how did he put it? He says, I know I made the right decision, but there's not a day that goes by that I wish I made a different one. And it's like, how can both that's a strange thing to say because both can kind of be true. You know, and but then that's also him realizing, wait a minute, I'm I am part of the thing I discussed. You know, and that's and it kind of makes him awake to that. That's why when Mills calls him out and says, I think you're leaving to justify why you feel the way you do. I don't think you're justified in it by leaving. And he just looks at him like you just beat out of me.

SPEAKER_02 2:23:38

So you're right. Well, I put the what that scene you just described, the abortion scene, is I put mine underrated moment because that that speaks for me at least. And this isn't the political podcast, guys, so we're not getting into politics, but that's that's one of the reasons why abortion is a hot topic issue is because it's very personal and it does have effects on both the men and women involved in those type of decisions and things like that. And him saying to Gwynniff when she is when she confesses to him that I'm pregnant, but I don't want to raise this kid in this city, and I don't know how to tell him. What do I do? She's conflicted, she wants to have a kid, but she doesn't like where she is. There's a whole bunch of emotion going on there. She just found out she's pregnant, all this different stuff. And he reveals that personal side to him that says, I at one time, myself and my mates, or whoever she was, or whatever, girlfriend, I think he said, um, we were pregnant, and I pressured her so much to get rid of the child, and she did. And there's not a day that goes by I wish I didn't make a different choice.

SPEAKER_00 2:24:46

Well, funny, he lost his wife and a baby by choice.

SPEAKER_02 2:24:49

Mm-hmm. That's right.

SPEAKER_00 2:24:50

It's reflected later. Yep. Brad loses his wife and child, not by choice.

SPEAKER_04 2:24:54

Isn't that wild? Yep. That's so smart. I was just gonna say it. I'm glad you said it because I'm like, that's 100%.

SPEAKER_02 2:25:02

Yep. Yeah. And that's that that's a to me, that's just a profound moment. Even back in 1995, when it's not as hotly debated, still is I mean, it was hotly debated, not saying it's not, but that whole uh abortion thing and um what's the man's role in it, what's the woman's role in it, and all that stuff, that's it's just it shows that you that is not always as rosy as some people make it sound to be. The empowerment is not always there because even when you don't think the man has any choice in the matter, when he made the choice to pressure her to do it, and then after it's done, you can't take it back. And every day that goes by, he realizes I don't have my son or daughter, and it's because of what I did. Well, that's huge.

SPEAKER_04 2:25:51

I'm accepting that part of it.

SPEAKER_02 2:25:52

Yes, that is a conversation with her that made him accept that's the part that people don't like to talk about, right? Is the after effects of making decisions like that. And he, like you said, I believe it was the right choice because at the time, look at the place he he's living in. Look at the poverty level that's obviously throughout that whole place, look at the the crime that he has to personally see every day, which is part of his job. But even if he wasn't in that job, look at this place. This is this is run down. This is this is disgusting.

SPEAKER_03 2:26:25

Yeah, it's pretty bad.

SPEAKER_02 2:26:26

I don't know if a rat would want to live here. This is pretty bad. So it makes sense. I don't want to raise a family here, but at the same time, look what you just did now. So you, like you said, contributed to this whole thing because it's acting just like what they would. So yeah, I that's my underrated moment. All right. So uh least best scene. Yeah, um, I mean least best scene? Yeah, worst scene, if you could say. It's just a nice way of saying the worst scene in the movie.

SPEAKER_04 2:27:03

Problem is, is I think every frame of this is intentional. Yep, I agree. I think they want the certain shots. All of it is very intentional. That's I think the story is being told in the cinematography as well. Like we can talk about what they say, we can talk about how they act, but then we talk like you said, the rain and rain yep, when there's sun, there's not sun, when they're in the city and they're in the open. When it's too dark. Yep. Yep, I think it the story is being told every second this book is playing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:27:30

I think it's that meticulous. All right. Well, I guess then let's skip to the best villain moment. For mine, it's him, uh Kevin Spacey cutting the fingertips off all the time.

SPEAKER_04 2:27:41

Oh, yeah, that gets you.

SPEAKER_02 2:27:43

That is for me, that's the best villain moment because her head's in the box. I I called that way before they even got in the car. I'm like, yeah, we know she's dead.

SPEAKER_01 2:27:53

Really? That was a big surprise the first time.

SPEAKER_02 2:27:55

For me, I was expecting it sooner. Anyways, the first time we watched that, I was like, no way.

SPEAKER_00 2:28:01

It's in the box.

SPEAKER_02 2:28:02

It just it just speaks to, I guess, where I have taken from it.

SPEAKER_00 2:28:07

We thought there was some kind of bomb or something.

SPEAKER_02 2:28:08

Oh, dad thought there was a bomb?

SPEAKER_00 2:28:10

Well, possibly.

SPEAKER_02 2:28:11

I thought that was too obvious. I when they when they said call the bomb squad, I'm like, he's not gonna blow them up. This isn't that kind of person. Kevin Space is not doing that.

SPEAKER_04 2:28:19

Well, once again, I think in the uh the eyes of being the first time you've seen a movie like this, yeah, you have no idea where it's going. You know, it's like it's kind of the end of this kind of reminds me a lot of Arlene too, Ron.

SPEAKER_00 2:28:31

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:28:32

Where it's like, this is leading somewhere, and then I'll never forget that scene. I stay up watching it behind the couch. You guys told me to go to bed like a hundred times. I I still was like watching around the corner. They went once I figured out it was too late, but I'm like, what are you still doing home? And I'm like, I'm just watching this one. It's wild. Like it's like it is but yeah, when he opens up the back of that trunk and that bomb's there, you're just like, what the hell? Yeah. I would never thought that was happening.

SPEAKER_02 2:28:56

I I expected the head in the box scene. Well I didn't expect was the dialogue and the um the philosophical reason, connecting it to deadly sins afterwards. And I thought once he delivered those lines, I guess I'm envy. Are you gonna be RAF? I'm like, oh my, okay, this is awesome. And the funny thing is he's full of shit.

SPEAKER_04 2:29:17

Like as much as like you want to think that this guy is a definitely he's definitely very smart and he's brilliant and good on his feet, knows what to do, pivoted to what he did, you know, when it was gonna make more of a difference. But it's hypocritical. You know, it's like this he's definitely it's I think they're both right when they talk when Brad calls him a psycho and and he calls him more methodical and meaningful. I think that Morgan says that because he relates to why he's talking about what he's talking about, because he's had these thoughts about people too. Brad's also right because he's crazy. You're not gonna justify to nobody in any religious ways of why you'd cut someone's head off and put it in a box. Like you're you're your envy, so you go commit a murder like that. It's like that's no, it makes you a murderer too. It's more than just the envy part of it. You became something more than that when you started doing that to people. And it's and the fact that he doesn't even see that as someone who considers himself godly is very, very scary. That's a scary type of individual. You know what I mean? And that that's and he's a psycho, psychopath. Like yeah, there's no good thing about him.

SPEAKER_02 2:30:23

Yeah, so my yeah, well, my my best villain moment was the the fingertip thing. I thought that was that was kind of genius in doing that and meant why he never got caught for so long. He just keeps cutting the fingertips off just enough where there's no fingerprint, and then as it starts healing up, just keeps going. It's always like that. I'm like, that is sick. Yeah, that's a great villain moment. Yeah, yeah, that's dedication. All right. Like, how long do you think he was doing that? Like over a year, at least, right? For that one guy, there's no prints in that whole room. Every time he visited him, he'd give him just enough to keep him alive, but yeah, enough. Like we're dealing with a neglect case right now. It's just it reminded me of that same thing.

SPEAKER_04 2:31:08

It's just that poor never reveal his real name in the spawn name.

SPEAKER_02 2:31:11

Yeah, that uh John Doe and Kevin Spacey. No, well, they never could. They never could ID him.

SPEAKER_04 2:31:17

Yeah, they never give you a moment at the end where there's like a real, but then it never could. That's pretty wild to think about it.

SPEAKER_02 2:31:23

Yeah. Um, all right, so most punchable face. I gotta say, sometimes, sometimes, that head honcho chief police, I'm like Harley Army? Listen, man, you're a little too much sometimes. That's that's the most I could think of. But other than that, there really isn't a punchable face that I could think of.

SPEAKER_04 2:31:50

I mean, that guy in the beginning when Somerset was like, Did the kids see it? And he's all like, who the hell cares? Goddamn, that guy could use a couple snack. So someone could have given him a little calm down, buddy. You know what I mean? Like and and the doctor that tells them about the guy that's sick. Oh yeah, he's very like, you know, he's kind of he and he's got a face. His in the way he talks, he's got a big nose. I'm like, he could use a sometimes. My punchable face, guys, is just a face. Might that be a good reason for the way he's talking, his demeanor, he looks like someone's wanted to at least punch him in the voice.

SPEAKER_02 2:32:26

There are just some people that your face looks like it's it's ready for a sack. You just yeah, you just need a good old tap to the dome.

SPEAKER_00 2:32:34

See, I didn't see them enough. This movie is based on three people, and it's really both the waiters and everything, like in some of the shows we're watching watching right now. You just get blurry faces. Yeah, you don't get a lot. No, not like there's a lot of.

SPEAKER_04 2:32:49

Besides a tough one to pick a legit answer. So I'm just picking the most annoying guys.

SPEAKER_01 2:32:53

Yeah, yeah, right. Because they're the only guys.

SPEAKER_04 2:32:55

Well, you know what? There is one character that is uh is good. He doesn't he doesn't have a punchable face, and I wouldn't normally want to punch the guy, but like his character is despicable and he never gets his his due, and that's the owner of or not the owner, but the guy that runs that sex place. Yeah, someone knocked him in the face. This one just got brutally murdered in your establishment, and you're acting kind of like a jerk there. Tons of guys come in, but sometimes they got suitcases. Yes, yes, you know, you should just be like, yeah, dude, seriously, like you know, did you see a dude? I mean, obviously, in the last 24 hours that some you know, some given a little more than that, like you just you just acting so nonchalant about yeah, like someone just died brutally mad you.

SPEAKER_02 2:33:36

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:33:37

That guy could use a good bunch to the face.

SPEAKER_02 2:33:39

I I agree. He more so than the chief. I agree. All right, so um, one prop you take home.

SPEAKER_00 2:33:47

Boy. A prop?

SPEAKER_02 2:33:49

Yep. Any prop in that movie. Anyone calling that strap on? No, just kidding. Just kidding. It's buffled. I mean, it is whole.

SPEAKER_04 2:34:00

Yeah, that's a little model of it would be a unique thing to say, look, this is from seven, but I wouldn't want to see anything.

SPEAKER_03 2:34:08

I wouldn't want that on my that's not a prop. I've been like, I'm leaving that here.

SPEAKER_04 2:34:15

That and the guys that made that. Like what the yeah. What are you doing with this, by the way? Like, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then he said he's made weirder things. Like, are you sure? What that's got a knife on it, bro. What other killers have you helped?

SPEAKER_02 2:34:28

Like that, yeah. That that guy should be a suspect in something.

SPEAKER_04 2:34:34

There's another punchable face.

SPEAKER_02 2:34:36

That is a punchable face. Who the heck says, let me sketch what you want. Oh, you want the knives? Oh, you want them sharp? Oh, you want them there? Here you go, bud. Have a nice day. Yeah. Oh, thank you. What the heck?

SPEAKER_03 2:34:49

It's like, well, okay. Yeah, no, that is the punchable face of the movie. You own nothing. Like, it's like, I don't anyway. Yeah. Yeah. Anyways, so you watch the news later, like, oh shit. Yeah. Yeah. Right? Anyways, um, the one prop you take home.

SPEAKER_04 2:35:08

Oh, um You know, I actually have a prop from Seven. Oh, okay. I have it. Well, it's not necessarily the real prop itself, or it's not like an actual thing either. But I bought the special edition of this movie that's got two discs and a third one for the music score. And the disc case of it looks like one of the notebooks that he writes in that the killer writes in. It's in a black case and he put it out and it looks like the notebook. Yeah. So I'm like, that's kind of cool. So to me, it'd be having one of those kind of props. I guess two of the notebooks, Kevin Spacey sat down and actually wrote a whole bunch of stuff in it about like and put himself in that mind space and wrote a whole bunch of stuff out. So when Morgan was actually reading through it, he literally opened it to a random spot and read one of the things that he wrote. So that scene where he tells the story about puking on the guy in the subway was a random line that Kevin had already wrote for them to find when he opened the book. That's a cool fun fact. He could have said anything else on that page. That's what he chose. He just opened it up and started reading the spot. Yep. So but those exist. There's two of them full of just random, awkward, crazy things of the mind of John Doe. Kind of want them to publish it as a book. I in a sip way I would read it just because it's unique.

SPEAKER_02 2:36:22

Yes, unique is the best way to say that. Yeah. Yeah. I I can't think of a prop personally for myself. Um, I didn't maybe I didn't pay that close attention this time when I was watching my first time watching it, guys. I'm like, hmm. I'll prop would be kind of cool. Yep.

SPEAKER_00 2:36:39

Oh, I like the clock, the thing. Yes, that's a cool one. I wouldn't mind.

SPEAKER_03 2:36:44

The one he throws.

SPEAKER_00 2:36:45

Yeah. Yeah, the one he throws in um the picture in the apartment that he goes up and looks at in their apartment.

SPEAKER_04 2:36:54

Yeah, that's yes. Um, what is that of?

SPEAKER_00 2:36:57

Oh, but I like that. And the thing I sticks out after I watched that movie, I could never look at those uh pine trees that you hang in.

SPEAKER_02 2:37:05

Insane, yeah. Oh, the air freshened things.

SPEAKER_00 2:37:07

Yeah, because that one scene where they they've got thousands of them hanging because of the smell of the gas. So every time I hang when I think of that movie.

SPEAKER_04 2:37:14

Yeah, yeah. Well, I don't think you know. Oh wow. Those are good. I I wouldn't mind like a cool uh like the pictures that he that he took of them on the stairs. Yep. That'd be a cool thing in a frame. Yeah, the one of Brad Pitt, like this.

SPEAKER_02 2:37:26

Yeah, where she has, yeah, that'd be cool because it's I could see that unique to the that'cause that's how they found out. Oh my gosh, that was him the whole time. Yeah, yeah. That'd be cool.

SPEAKER_04 2:37:34

That'd be a cool gotcha. That is cool. All right.

SPEAKER_02 2:37:38

Um I already said my most underrated moment. What are your guys' most underrated?

SPEAKER_04 2:37:42

Yeah, I got nothing for both of these. Underrated, overrated, none of it. Like I said, it's so precise. Twenty-four hours ago, I I thought of some things, but now I realize what when I've made a decision that I know this movie's about him more, it changed my whole perspective of this movie again. So yeah, I don't have anything.

SPEAKER_02 2:38:00

Overrated is the head in the box. No, just kidding.

SPEAKER_03 2:38:03

No, I'm gonna get these guys to be like, What the fuck?

SPEAKER_00 2:38:06

No, I love that scene where they where the van's coming. Oh, yeah, because well, you just all of a sudden there's a van coming. Yeah, poor delivery guy.

SPEAKER_01 2:38:14

Oh, that's I thought that's the one.

SPEAKER_04 2:38:15

Oh, that dude's crapped his pants. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:38:18

Gave me $500 to deliver this boss.

SPEAKER_04 2:38:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:38:20

And they said, get out of here. And he doesn't get in the van. He just runs. Yeah. I mean a little does that I always thought that was funny.

SPEAKER_04 2:38:27

This guy's got a gun. I'm on now. Yeah, it's a sketchy spot to be sent out to to do that anyway.

SPEAKER_02 2:38:32

You know, it's yeah, right. Be like, what's going on here? Yeah. Um, funniest moment. I'll tell you what, my funniest moment is when I'm trying to remember the specific scene, but I remember the the beginning of the line um when the Morgan Freeman is trying to explain to Brad Pitt's character there, um, like the meaning behind these deadly sins or something like that. And this is why he thinks that way. And Brad just yells out, because he's a nut job. Then he just continues on laughing. I'm like, yeah, that's what I'm thinking too.

SPEAKER_04 2:39:04

Yeah. He really does. It's just like, no, you're thinking too much. Yeah, he's just crazy.

SPEAKER_03 2:39:11

Yes, he's just a nut job.

SPEAKER_02 2:39:15

I'm like, yeah, it's true. They are both funny. Do you guys have a moment that stuck out too that was like, oh, that's funny. This isn't a funny movie, but there's not a lot of funny.

SPEAKER_04 2:39:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:39:25

Yeah. But it's those little things like that.

SPEAKER_00 2:39:27

That's no, I just like when they're laughing at the table.

SPEAKER_04 2:39:30

I was gonna say, it's hard not to have a smile on your face when that scene happens. Yeah. And and Morgan's laugh is contagious. Yeah. When he and it looks like it's very genuine. Like it was nice.

SPEAKER_00 2:39:40

Makes me wonder when they laughed, they were really I bet they were just having like I I bet. Oh my gosh, let's just laugh. You know?

SPEAKER_04 2:39:47

Yeah. Yeah. And they're probably like, I'm tired. I have always kind of always kind of smirked at that thing at the end when they get out and he's like, What do you got? He was a dead dog, and he John Doe's just like, I didn't do that. Yeah. That's freaking psycho. Like, but you kind of smirk could have funny. That's like Kevin Spacey saying, Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:40:07

Almost like, oh, I wouldn't dare do that. Be like, now you draw a line somewhere. It's funny.

SPEAKER_04 2:40:12

Kevin Spacey has, for some reason, in a lot of his movies, it's something that deals with a dead dog. There's like a weird correlation between he's got a movie. The margin call starts out with him burying his dead dog that just died. And the house of cards starts out with him killing his dog. Oh, that's right. And he's burying it.

SPEAKER_05 2:40:33

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_04 2:40:34

And then he runs over a dog in the beginning of usual suspects. There's a dead dog in this movie. There's a lot of dead dogs in Kevin's life in these movies. It's really weird. Someone pointed that out online. I'm like, wow, that is funny. When you look back at it, in American uh American beauty, he actually runs over his dog in the garage. Like, there's a lot of like there's a lot of dead dogs in Kevin's movies.

SPEAKER_07 2:40:54

That's cool.

SPEAKER_04 2:40:55

Yeah, it's wild to think that why is it like that? But anyway. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:41:00

It is. Most emotional moment. I'm gonna give that to Gwen of Paucho in the the um the coffee shop there.

SPEAKER_00 2:41:09

Yeah, I would say so too.

SPEAKER_02 2:41:10

Because that's like a that's like a life crisis that she's going through, and she she feels comfort in Morgan Freeman. I would feel comfort in Morgan Freeman too. I mean, when you just hear him talk, he's just so smooth soothing. Anyways.

SPEAKER_00 2:41:22

Oh, I think um when he was trying to get him to not s kill him.

SPEAKER_02 2:41:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:41:27

That was you want you wanted him to kill him. But you didn't want to.

SPEAKER_02 2:41:31

But you didn't want him to be right. So it was like, whoa.

SPEAKER_00 2:41:34

To me, that was this intense, emotional.

SPEAKER_04 2:41:38

Yeah, I'm gonna the diner's a close one, but that and with Brad there, that's where, like I kind of alluded to earlier. How do you act that? You know, it's like you and then you have to for the first time you're finding out she's pregnant, yeah, by the way. So it's not just that she he killed her and there's your baby, but you're also learning that now, knowing she's dead. So you got all the power in your hand right now. And it's like the way he did it, the the blinking, the looking down, like the trying to not look at him, but also, like I told you, like you kind of said before too, this idea of not seeing what he really did to her, but knowing what he did to her, how horrific that is. That's gotta be going through his head too.

SPEAKER_00 2:42:19

So we were watching it, Chris we knew she was pregnant because she had admitted to him, yeah, to Morgan, that she was pregnant. And then when he said that it was her head, your dad says, Don't tell him, don't tell him. And then he has to continue to say, I've she pled for herself and the life of her baby. And your dad goes, That's it, he's gonna shoot him. And it was only a minute later.

SPEAKER_04 2:42:42

I knew that too at that point, too.

SPEAKER_00 2:42:44

And your dad was so vocal about that's it. I can see that, I can see dad being there with it.

SPEAKER_04 2:42:49

Yeah, no, because like how do you mean at that point? It's like, and and John Doe knew that, right? He knew. Like, I think he thought he was trying to talk him into it, but as soon as it then once he realized he didn't know, and that's what he says to Morgan, oh, he didn't know. And notice he says that to Morgan, because once again, he's showing him, see, buddy, no matter what, I'm gonna win this crap. And he just he just you see him close his eyes, like just do it. Yeah, I know you're gonna.

SPEAKER_06 2:43:12

Yeah, yeah, you can see it.

SPEAKER_04 2:43:13

And when he looks down and he closes his eyes and you see that flash of her face, it's like, oh yeah, it's just over. It's no, yeah. And he does, he and he doesn't just shoot him, he empties the clip.

SPEAKER_06 2:43:22

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:43:23

And that was a choice Brad Pitt made. He said, Dude, if could we do another shot where I shoot him more? And they kind of were like, Well, why do you want to do that? He goes, Because if it was my wife and my kid I didn't know about, I'd empty my whole gun into him. And he goes, All right, sounds good to me.

SPEAKER_00 2:43:37

So that was like an honest honest response to like what you would I could not believe I could not imagine that ending any other way.

SPEAKER_04 2:43:43

No, me neither. Yeah. No. I mean, if it ended with him not shooting him, I mean it uh I don't know if the point gets across then at that point, you know.

SPEAKER_00 2:43:52

And well, the seven sins aren't done.

SPEAKER_04 2:43:55

Right.

SPEAKER_00 2:43:55

It has to be.

SPEAKER_04 2:43:56

Uh the original ending to this that they wanted to change that they had to fight for would how putting it in the contract to keep that is supposed to be the dog's heads in the box. Oh. And as upset as somebody would be, I couldn't see him shooting him over it. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:44:15

This is this is his wife. This is more personal.

SPEAKER_04 2:44:18

Yeah, I mean, I think of my Alice and would I uh maybe I don't know if I'd shoot him though. I don't know. I don't know. It's yeah, it's it's hard because that's I just don't think the emotional impact is there. It had to be his wife. You know what I mean? I really did if you think about it. And a lot of it is because of the correlation between Morgan what he didn't how he chose to lose his family, this guy chose not to, and it still had I used to prepare myself when I would take Lily for a walk with a dog in our neighborhood that would come out and it was on a fence in yard, and I would say to myself, if that I used to come up with a plan.

SPEAKER_00 2:44:51

We got we moved across the road so we were further away, and in my brain I said, if that dog comes over and gets a hold of her, I will pound its face into the cement. You're it's amazing what you will do when you're put in that spot. I envisioned it so many times that I had my fists ready as we walked. It got so I just didn't go that way because I had myself it wasn't an enjoyable walk anymore.

SPEAKER_04 2:45:19

Yeah, we we had a neighbor at the lake that when the person first met Alice, he was like, Oh, there's your dog, you guys remember how Alice was. She didn't she didn't really trust people at first. You had to gain Alice's trust. Um, she's a good dog, rescue dog, but she had been treated bad. And and whatever it always in her head is like you just approach her, let her decide. And 99% of the time you guys are good friends and she's sitting on your lap anyway. You know, she it wasn't but there's some people she just wasn't gonna tolerate. And I had a neighbor that walked over, was talking to me, and she growled at him just ready. And he said, I said, Oh, just just leave her alone, just ignore her, she won't do nothing. And he was in front of Morgan and the kids and everything. I and he's just like, Well, I'm not too worried. Dogs don't scare me. If she she goes to bite me, I'll just kick her. And I turned to him, I said, It's the last damn thing you'll do. And it's like, because you know it's like, hey, I didn't dogs fall or not, you're not gonna hurt her, you know. And I get it.

SPEAKER_00 2:46:11

It's I got myself right, so I had to stop walking that way because I was so got myself so amped up. But I would close my and I think, what would I do if he got I would pound that face of that dog right into the pavement.

SPEAKER_06 2:46:22

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:46:23

And then this is an awful thing to say.

SPEAKER_02 2:46:25

I love dogs, but but it makes also the the life of the life of your dog too.

SPEAKER_00 2:46:30

Like your maybe he would have done it anyways if they had been the dog of the the heads of the dog. Yeah, he had two dogs, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:46:38

Yeah, I think he probably would have hurt him. I don't know if he'd have killed him, but the the idea though of making him have to figure that out though was way more impactful than that.

SPEAKER_02 2:46:46

Yes, and but and and yeah, and not only is it his wife, but then revealing that she was pregnant too, that she never told oh, she never told you.

SPEAKER_04 2:46:55

And he did really cook with it because I think there is a possibility he may have not done it if it was just her. I think that's wanted to. But I do think Morgan would have talked him off the ledge. He probably still would have quit his job. There probably would have been a crazy thing about it, but I think he'd have talked him off the ledge because he he would have convinced him enough to not let him get away with this. But as soon as the baby got brought up, how close they were. Yeah. Because you almost in this movie, they want you to kind of think there's problems between them. And the only real problem between them is where they're living. Yeah. Other than that, they are fine. Yeah. And that's so the perfection of that is what makes it so heartbreaking. Yeah. And then the idea that the baby's there is like for him, is like that's what your dad said.

SPEAKER_00 2:47:36

Yeah. They can talk him down. They can he doesn't know. He doesn't know. Then he said, Oh, she begged for the life of your baby, your child, however you put it. Dad goes, That's it.

SPEAKER_04 2:47:45

It's a guarantee.

SPEAKER_00 2:47:46

That's it. Within more minutes, so you know what?

SPEAKER_04 2:47:50

He might not even spend a lot of time in jail over it. It's a crime of passion.

SPEAKER_00 2:47:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:47:54

You know, in the moment, given what's happened in the guy that did it. Yeah. You know, I mean, gosh, his wife is heads in a box, you know, and then the guy who was the intention was to be.

SPEAKER_00 2:48:02

The look he had on his face when they pulled away, though, made you think that no matter where what happened.

SPEAKER_04 2:48:07

He's a broken man in this.

SPEAKER_00 2:48:08

He's very broken, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:48:09

Yeah, you ruined him for sure. Yeah. But he's not spending the rest of his life in prison.

SPEAKER_02 2:48:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:48:14

You know.

SPEAKER_02 2:48:15

All right, guys.

SPEAKER_00 2:48:16

You gotta wrap this up.

SPEAKER_02 2:48:17

Yes, we're getting to the final scores now. This is the end of the segment coming up. So, um, all of you, so starting with mom, out of two, what would you give the story?

SPEAKER_00 2:48:26

One being the worst and two being the best.

SPEAKER_02 2:48:28

Uh zero being the worst and two being absolute best, and one being just in the middle.

SPEAKER_00 2:48:33

Um If you had asked me five years ago, I would definitely give it a two. Now that I've watched other movies, I'm gonna give it a one. It's right, it's one of my top twenty. It used to be one of my top ten. I don't know if that makes any sense, but and it's not the newer movies. It's just I've changed my perspective and my appetite towards movies. I like this movie, but uh yeah. I think it would be it would be a one for me.

SPEAKER_05 2:49:01

Okay. And you like I'm gonna give it a two.

SPEAKER_02 2:49:04

I'm gonna give it a one. All right. Characters out of two. What would you give?

SPEAKER_00 2:49:09

Oh, definitely every one of them a two. Yeah, two.

SPEAKER_02 2:49:11

Okay. I'm gonna give that a two. Action and visuals. Yeah, two.

SPEAKER_00 2:49:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:49:17

I'm gonna give that a two. Emotion and stakes.

unknown 2:49:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 2:49:21

Two.

SPEAKER_02 2:49:21

There definitely was high emotion and definitely was high stakes towards that end. Re-watchability and the industry impact, you would say.

SPEAKER_00 2:49:30

So this will probably be my tenth time watching it, so I'm gonna have to give it a two. Only because I've done it. And I probably will watch it again.

SPEAKER_02 2:49:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:49:37

Now that I we we can't find it on our DVD, but you found it on another.

SPEAKER_02 2:49:41

Yep, it's on Peacock right now, uh, as of this filming.

SPEAKER_00 2:49:45

I might even put it back in tomorrow night and watch it again now that I know I can watch it. I just can't I know we have the DVD, I just haven't gone looking for it.

SPEAKER_04 2:49:51

So Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:49:53

Yeah, I I'll give it a two for watchability. You too?

SPEAKER_04 2:49:57

Oh, yeah. I mean, the industry impact, it it changed the genre. Without this, we wouldn't get what we we wouldn't have Mr. Brooks. There's a lot of things we wouldn't have without this movie being done. Um, and rewatchability, like I said, this has gotta be almost 30 times I've seen it. Really? Okay. So two or two for you. Fourth or fifth most watched movie.

SPEAKER_06 2:50:15

Huh. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 2:50:16

So for me, Industry Impact is definitely there. If it like I completely agree with everything you just said, if it wasn't for this movie, we wouldn't have some of the other books, like 88 Minutes I Used to Love, you know, things like that. We wouldn't have those type of psychological thrillers the way that we have them now. Um, but for rewatchability for me, I could go about watching this. It's it's yeah, I gotcha. It's okay, but it's not like too young. Yeah. Well, I I think that it is part of it. And I think it's the time. Because I'm in the time period where because this was so good back in the 90s, there's a whole bunch of other movies that came out after this that just tried to amp it up even more. And I mean you like the amp up stuff. Yes. Well, when I got more aware of movies, that was more accessible than this. So for you guys, it definitely would be one of those, like, oh, this is the OG.

SPEAKER_00 2:51:05

Um, um, bridges over Madison County. He's gonna yawn to it.

SPEAKER_04 2:51:12

What are you guys talking about? Maybe maybe. I mean, Sammy's he's he's uh good, he's got a good span of some movies, but this is definitely a it's not that has nothing to do with thrilling.

SPEAKER_01 2:51:22

Not yet.

SPEAKER_04 2:51:23

We'll get we'll get there, guys. His reaction to this movie, though, the way he's talking, makes me want to watch Sonic Selame.

SPEAKER_00 2:51:32

Oh, there you go. Yeah. Because it does have that same very similar.

SPEAKER_04 2:51:35

Yeah. But but yeah, it's not, right? It is not. Like it's it's not this. But it is like a that is definitely that kind of movie that what a classic. And Anthony Hawkins at his peak.

SPEAKER_00 2:51:47

Only person could do that. Oh my, so good.

SPEAKER_02 2:51:49

All right, guys, final scores. Buffalo Bill. So out of ten.

SPEAKER_00 2:51:54

I'd give it a ten. Definitely. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:51:56

Ten for mom. How about you for you? I got a ten.

SPEAKER_04 2:51:59

It was gonna be a nine, but now it's it's a ten.

SPEAKER_00 2:52:03

And you were like a five, right?

SPEAKER_04 2:52:05

I'm a six. Wow.

SPEAKER_00 2:52:06

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_04 2:52:07

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 2:52:08

I'm surprised. I don't thought it would be lower.

SPEAKER_04 2:52:10

I kind of thought it I yeah, it's a right about right in there.

SPEAKER_00 2:52:13

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:52:14

Yeah, I thought about half. You'd go. I I I get it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:52:19

Alright, so it is officially then with my score, it's an eight out of ten for the official Godell multiverse score. All right.

SPEAKER_06 2:52:27

That's all right. It looks good out there.

SPEAKER_02 2:52:28

That's not bad. That's not bad actually.

SPEAKER_00 2:52:30

I want you to watch it again, not out on the deck. Because now that you we've been glimp glimpsing at it while we've been talking to all of you, and it was a lot clearer now. It was clearer here and we watched it in outside, and there was spots you he couldn't see anything.

SPEAKER_06 2:52:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:52:49

Um we I couldn't either. So for someone. For someone who has never watched it, that wasn't probably the best place for him to watch it.

SPEAKER_02 2:52:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:52:59

Because there's a lot of stuff if you're watching it right now that you can see.

SPEAKER_02 2:53:02

Alright, to close us off, what's your one sentence final review?

SPEAKER_00 2:53:07

Hmm, one sentence final review? Oh, you got out there, you gotta watch this movie with somebody just be able to get right through it.

SPEAKER_04 2:53:16

So yeah. Yeah, I think if you if you want to ever claim to be someone that is savvy and knowing any kind of thrillers or you know, horror thriller, psychological thriller specifically, and you've not seen this, then you can't see it. You're missing out. Yeah, you need to watch this. Is an even if by the end you get a six out of it, it's still I think necessary to see in the genre and see why it was so, you know.

SPEAKER_00 2:53:43

Yeah. If you like Brad Pitt, if you like Morgan Freeman, you gotta watch this.

SPEAKER_04 2:53:47

If you like Kevin Spacey, his acting, yep.

SPEAKER_00 2:53:50

You all of those are reasons to watch great. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:53:53

The other thing I got to say is we should add Sansa Lambs to our list too. But we'll do something lighter next time.

unknown 2:53:59

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 2:54:01

All right. Well, guys, thanks for joining us on this branch point breakdown special. Ike, where are we heading to for our final segment of the podcast? So we're gonna do our final uh our retrospective on Black Panther, and it's gonna be an interesting one.

SPEAKER_04 2:54:15

So we got some stuff to talk about and maybe not as much to talk about as we usually do, to be completely honest with you.

SPEAKER_02 2:54:22

Oh, well, in that case, I have a lot to say about this film, and I am I was when I was writing my notes, I'm like, oh, I have to keep going. I was I there is one point where I'm writing down what I like and what I don't like. Well, actually, not much. I'll get there, folks, when we get to exactly, but there are certain sections. My hot take is big. Oh no, and I am so excited to dive into this guy. So here we go. Stay tuned. Bye. Okay, ladies and gentlemen, we are on to our main event now. We're doing our retrospective review of Black Panther 1. So, this is gonna be very exciting. What what are you thinking so far, Ike, and just getting getting started with this?

SPEAKER_04 2:55:22

This is gonna be a hard one for me today, guys. And the opposite problem than last week's. So it's it's I'm not gonna say this is a bad movie. Well, I definitely have my issues with it, and we'll have a good discussion about it, and uh we'll see how it goes. I'm gonna be as fair with it as I possibly can.

SPEAKER_06 2:55:40

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_04 2:55:41

Okay. That just gives you a little hint, I guess.

SPEAKER_02 2:55:44

So I guess I'm happy. All right, well, I'm gonna I'm gonna kick start this guy off, uh, everyone with uh the history behind the film. So Black Panther 1. It was released February 16th, 2018. The main cast include Chadwick Bozeman, Michael B. Jordan, Lupita Nyongo, Dana Guerrilla. Sorry if I'm mispronouncing your names, guys. Um, Latilla Wright. Letitia, is it? Actually, all right, Winston Duke, Angela Bassett, uh, Forrest Whitaker, Martin Freeman, and Andy Circus. All right. So the development of Marvel Studios' first Black Panther film was one of the most culturally significant projects in the MCU and represented a major step forward in expanding the universe's diversity and global storytelling. The character of Tatala was introduced to audiences in Captain America's Civil War, but Marvel had been discussing a Black Panther movie for years. By the time the film entered production, the MCU was deep into phase three, coming off the successes of Civil War, Doctor Strange, and Guardians Volume 2, while preparing for the massive events of Avengers Infinity War. Marvel saw an opportunity to introduce Wakanda as one of the most unique locations in the MCU, a technologically advanced African nation that had remained hidden from the world. Director Ryan Kugler was hired after the success of his acclaimed film Creed, and Marvel was impressed by his ability to combine character-driven drama, cultural themes, and emotional storytelling with blockbuster filmmaking. Kugler, along with co-writer Joe Robert Cole, wanted the movie to explore themes of identity, responsibility, tradition, and the relationship between Africa and the global community rather than simply create another superhero origin story. At the time of filming in 2017, the cast was experiencing a major career growth and the MCU was at its peak popularity. Chadwick Bozeman had already impressed audiences as T'Challa in Civil War and was becoming one of Hollywood's most respected rising stars. Bozeman approached the role with a focus on portraying Chichala as a thoughtful leader rather than simply a powerful warrior. Michael B. Jordan reunited with Ryan Kugler after Fugitive Station and Cree to play Eric Kilmonger, while Mupida Niongo, Danae Guerrilla, Leticia Wright, Angela Bassett, and Forrest Whitaker joined the ensemble. The film featured one of Marvel's strongest supporting casts with many of the women of Wakanda, Okoye, Shiri, and Akiya, playing central roles rather than being secondary characters. Production took place primarily in Atlanta, South Korea, and Africa-inspired locations, with Marvel creating extensive practical sets for Wakanda while combining them with visual effects to create the fictional nation's futuristic technology. Behind the scenes, Marvel and Kugler work extensively to ensure Wakanda felt like a fully developed civilization rather than a fictionalized version of one specific African culture. The production hired cultural consultants, historians, designers, and experts to incorporate influences from multiple African regions, languages, clothing styles, and traditions. Didor Melange, Wakana's elite female warriors, drew inspiration from various real-world African warrior traditions while being reimagined for the MCU. One of the film's biggest creative decisions was making Killmonger the villain. Rather than creating a traditional villain seeking world domination, Kugler wanted an antagonist whose beliefs challenged T'Challa's worldview. Killmonger's argument that Wakanda had the resources and power to help oppress people around the world but chose isolation created conflict where both sides had understandable motivations. Maybe. Marvel viewed him as a reflection of Chichala's own strengths with leadership and the responsibilities of power. Some fun production facts include the creation of Shiri's advanced Wakandang Technol Tech Technology Lab, which became one of Marvel's most visual creative environments, the use of real South African locations and landscapes, and intense training required for the cast to perform the film's large-scale action sequences. The film's famous Challenge Day combat scenes were designed to combine superhero spectacle with traditional ritual and cultural storytelling. When Black Panther was released in 2018, it became a phenomenon far beyond typical superhero films. Critics praised its world-building performances, themes, visual style, and cultural significance. The film earned approximately 98% on Rotten Tomatoes from critics and 79% from audiences. Financially, it became one of Marvel's biggest successes, grossing approximately $1.35 billion worldwide against a production budget estimated around $200 million. It was the first superhero film nominated for an Academy Award for Best Picture and won three Oscars for costume design, production design, and original score. More importantly, Black Panther proved audiences around the world would embrace stories centered on characters and culturals, cultures that had been historically been underrepresented in blockbuster filmmaking. The film became a defining moment for the MCU, expanded the importance of Wakanda within the universe, and established Chadwick Bozeman's T'Challa as one of the most iconic heroes before his tragic passing in 2020.

SPEAKER_06 3:01:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:01:47

Alright, guys. So uh Ike, when you are ready, what is the official synopsis?

SPEAKER_04 3:01:54

So for Black Panther one, okay? The official synopsis is T'Challa, heir to the hidden but advanced kingdom of Wakanda, must step forward to lead his people into a new future and must confront a challenger from his country's past.

SPEAKER_02 3:02:13

Yes. All right. Well, I guess maybe we will just start. We'll dive right into this sucker and we'll get get all to the nitty-gritty of anything. Is there anything about the um any comments you want to make about the the history part that I read or anything that stuck out?

SPEAKER_04 3:02:28

That sounds about right. I mean, it's it's a very controversial movie in its own regard, I guess. Um, I think that's where I disagree with this film. Um I hope I don't get canceled tonight. Well, because I am I do have some issues with this movie that um are going to I'm not gonna say I have to lean into some political things to uh get my point across, but there is a little bit of I'm gonna and I'm gonna say this right off the bat is Republican or Democrat, I'm not gonna get into that part of it. Um I don't like it when either thing gets pushed real hard. And I think there's an agenda in this film that I don't know if I I don't buy, and it's because there's certain facts and certain things that I don't like it in the relation to what they want us to think about sometimes of a lot of the symbolism in this movie, and because it's so apparent that it's there, it's I have I have trouble that it's like well I don't know if I agree with your sentiment of that thing, but I'm trying to do my best to be like, well, let's say in this world it is that, so I try to see it in the MCU's eyes, and it's still something, and then the things that fall flat for me that don't work we'll get to aren't as political. So I I could honestly say the agenda of the film, I definitely don't relate. Um, and there's a lot of people out there saying, well, you're not supposed to, and I'm saying that why'd you make it for everybody? So that's kind of where we come in with that. But I'm gonna try to lean as far away from that as I can and tell you the flaws I see in this that don't rely on just my my what you see. I don't want to be very specific because I don't want this podcast to be political at all. But when the movie forces me to have to explain why I feel like I don't connect, that's kind of where I'm at. And because of that, it's gonna reveal it because I'm not gonna lie to you and say that everything's cool and dandy. So I think we'll just go through it the best we can. I'll comb through it. I I'm gonna be as honest as I can, but I'm gonna make it more about the movie itself and not the overwhelming politic the politics that come with it. Um, but that it does have a factor because it's so in your face sometimes the scenes are too much, and it's like, well, now wait a minute. You know, and so yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:04:42

So I think with uh to start, I I completely understand where you're coming from, and I hear I hear your concerns about this. Uh I'm gonna start off right off with saying, guys, we aren't we are um we're basically a Marvel podcast. We touch on DC, comic books, and sometimes if something is happening in the entertainment industry that affects these things that we like, we'll touch upon it too. We are not a political podcast. But at the same time, when a Marvel film decides to have its own version of a political identity, and we have to review said film because it's a Marvel film, you will hear our opinion whether we think it was appropriate, whether we thought it was in good taste, or whether they came across right or not. And this film, I understand where my brother is coming from with saying that. So it to us, it does not matter if you personally are liberal leaning or conservative leading, Republican, Democrat, somewhere in the middle, or someone who doesn't care about politics whatsoever. This podcast is not about politics, but we are going to touch upon the politics in the movie that they are pushing onto us that we have to react to. And whether we agree, disagree, too much, not enough, that's up to interpretation. This is our opinion. That's why you're watching or listening to this podcast, which, by the way, if you're just listening to us, we have a YouTube version. So please check it out so you get visual. If you're just watching us on YouTube, you want to catch the full thing, we're on every audio streaming platform. So I had to plug that in there at the same time. But I just wanted to make that clear that this film, much like from my understanding, some of other Ryan Kugler films, and please correct me if I'm wrong, it does he likes to touch upon political themes within the story that's being told. Am I correct in saying that? Because I've only seen a couple of his movies, but the ones I've watched have that in it.

SPEAKER_04 3:06:49

So the difference with Ryan Kugler and like let's say someone that like the one they made Brave New World, okay? So Brave New World is another one that's kind of a politically agenda, agendacized kind of film, but it is more, that's more of a political movie. That's that. I'd even say Captain America when a soldier was more of a political movie. You know, this one in particular, and uh in Ryan Cougar's other work, um, he's a he's a great filmmaker, though. I'm not gonna take that away from him. They're fantastic looking movies, but there is a social political agenda that's underlined in a lot of them, and I think they've been very open about it, from what I understand. And because of that, though, there are times that it's hard to separate myself from the world that I live in and just getting into the just to see what movie this is, like the world of the film, right? And I think that Ryan's a voice, he wants to be a voice that's heard. He doesn't want me to not be connected. Just so happens that I think that there's more nuance to some of what he's talking about because I don't want to say he's wrong. And I don't want to say that it's not right what he's saying. I think there's some truth in it, but I think it's very this movie in particular, I think it's very naive to paint it the way it's been painted in in this film in particular. So it's very hard to talk about without just getting into it. And I think we're gonna get into it while we're talking about the Mary, because it's going because there's lines in this movie that directly call you know that go right with it. That how do we not talk about it? You're kind of setting as if we're two white boys from New York talking about a movie that some people are gonna put in our comments saying that we don't have the right to talk about. And that's a society that we live in right now, and this movie is one of those that fuels that. And I think that's wrong, and I don't like that. And I'm not saying this movie says that that's right. I think they agree that we got the right to talk about any of this stuff, you know. But I do think that my opinions of some of the moments in this film, or the I think the social political agenda was more than this film being good to these people, then you know, then I think that was more important. And because of that, that's what I see when I watch it. And so it's hard to not have an opinion about something I'm gonna be told I'm not allowed to have an opinion for, but yet it's in a medium that everyone should enjoy. So I struggle. And it's not the only movie. There's plenty of other movies that are on the opposite end of this political situation that I would say the same thing about. So I don't think either side should be pushing what they think.

SPEAKER_02 3:09:36

I agree with that. I agree I agree with that. Yeah, we didn't.

SPEAKER_04 3:09:38

I'd rather stick with the politics in the MCU. You know, and not and that's where that's where X-Men succeeded. Because X-Men were about mutants. And there's no mutants, so we all had the right to have an opinion. Now, yeah, mutants was in place of you know, whether it was sexuality or color or race, the that was all the themage of it, right? Civil rights, right? Um, but it was with mutants, so we could talk about it in a certain way. It was a fake world talking about real things. So this is a fake world, but this is with real people and talking about real things relating to those real people. It's not just about superheroes. You know? And I'm not saying it has to be just about superheroes, and I'm not saying he had to do it that way. But you did. And so when I see it, and there's some things that are said that are very broad, which is some sometimes is very I think it's more nuanced than that. And I think that I think the movie actually does attempt to make you understand that it is nuanced. You know, but then there's times where you know, you kind of feel like you feel you feel like you're making the mistake of agreeing with that.

SPEAKER_02 3:10:51

You know what I mean? So I don't know. Well I'm excited about for getting into this is I completely understand your concerns, and I remember when this movie came out, there was even was it this movie or was it Wonder Woman? There was something where there was even something in the news that said that either a theater or a group of people or something were denied, or denying people entry because they weren't of a certain skin color of necessity because they want that was this movie. That see that stuff I'm separating personally from the film itself because this film is art, and this is the art that is within a universe that we routinely consume, and I do think it has its place in the MCU, I think it has its place for Marvel at large, but we have a right, no matter what our political opinions are, social opinions are, or skin color, to talk about this. And so, and if there are anybody that goes into the comments, there is anyone that goes into the comments and wants to say you don't have any right to say an opinion about this thing, you put it in our movie, we do have a right to this opinion, like you have the right to of an opinion on any of these other movies, too. So um whether we get to that point or not in this, because I actually feel like I have a little bit more of a difference of opinion with this film, and I hope as we go on that, yeah, it might have some political social implications of the good, the bad, and the ugly of this film, but I hope I could like in our debate about certain scenes or certain characters or certain things, I can enlighten you as to my perspective at least on on what I took away from this movie. Um and and maybe you as an audience watching will will get a different taste of this too. Um vice versa.

SPEAKER_04 3:12:49

In watching this, I don't dislike the movie as much as I saw it. Um a lot of my dislike from this movie came from fans. I just you know that I know what that was very hard to separate.

SPEAKER_02 3:13:06

That is, and that's one of the things I feel like I I was kind of gonna save this until after we got through the movie itself when we got into our deep dives of the movie and but and the history did touch upon this. It kept referring to cultural significance, cultural significance, but the I feel, and I hope I'm not tuning anyone off to this right now, and you're not gonna watch our review, because I really do want you to see our our review, listen to our view, all that stuff. But the things uh surrounding the movie when it was coming out, when it's being promoted, were overhyped. They were overblown. Oh, yeah. I'm not that doesn't mean this is a bad movie, it just means that you are hyping it up to something as if this was some sort of once-in-a-lifetime event or achievement of somebody that in all reality, guys, it's just another movie. Like they were hyping this up, some people were hyping this up more than the Avengers movie that followed just a few months later, and that is where culturally, socially, we have a problem with stuff like that. Because you yes, representation matters, and this is great. That this is Marvel MCU's, I should say, first black solo superhero film. That's fantastic. I'm I'm happy for it. I believe that this comics is made for everyone, so therefore, it should have some representation for everyone. And I love that. I love that we got Shang-Chi later and it represented that part of culture and that air region of the world and things like that. But when you overhype a certain culture as it's blowing it way out of proportion, it it tends to cause a recoil of your casual fans or just your normal, your normal average MCU fans that's like, okay, was it that good really? Because honestly, what I want to point out too, real quick, and I know we haven't gotten to the movie yet, but we're gonna jump right into that in a moment. One of the things that was part of the history that I thought was actually very interesting was the the reception. Critics were giving it a 96%. That's huge, that's big. That means critics for majority of poor overwhelmingly, except for that 4%, had high praise and enjoy it. And we saw that in the promotional material that was on billboards, that was on the ads, that was in the news, that was literally everywhere. The audience only gave a 79%. Now, 79 is not not some small number, not oh, holy smokes, it really was a bad movie. I think that that 79% though, why it wasn't like 85 or wasn't 92 or something that you would expect to be a little more fair and balanced. Because most of our Marvel movies, for the most part, have had maybe a five-point difference between critics and audience, where this one is a much signific more significant point difference. Uh what is it over, over just under 20 points, I think 18, 17 point difference. I think was because of the hype around it on what they did with it for the promotional wise. It was a great movie. Was it a cultural phenomenon? No, it wasn't. But they treated it like it was, and therefore, to anyone who disagreed with them, that's when you got the online trolls, we would say, that would say, you don't have a right to disagree with us on this film. Actually, we do. You are being welcomed into our space as comic book lovers and MCU lovers and film lovers, not the other way around. So when you try to assimilate with us and trying to bridge a gap between what they're trying to say of the cultural implications or social implications of this film and this promotion versus what you've entered into, this arena, this this genre, you have to be able to blend them together and not have this social political divide that they decided to make in doing this with them blowing this film out of proportion to what it actually was, and it's a good film. But the the problem with that is now you've how do I say this? You've made that become the story and not letting the film just be the story.

SPEAKER_05 3:17:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:17:44

And if you didn't do that, you would have seen that 79% easily, but not 92%.

SPEAKER_04 3:17:51

Well, I I I I'm 100% on board with everything you said. I think the only nuance to what I would add, uh, if I could add anything to it, would be. That also it's it was a kind of gimmicky to make it come come out as this cultural, like you know, it is a big deal. It's the first very you know led, first heavily led or uh uh majority-ledity-led, and definitely first black superhero in the Marvel Cinematic universe.

SPEAKER_03 3:18:21

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 3:18:22

I and I think it's great. I love it. I mean, actually, there's a lot of things about it I like because of that, to be honest with you. And I don't even think that that's really the problem that I'm even with to be. It's not for me, it's not. It's the it is how it was sold, doesn't help.

SPEAKER_06 3:18:36

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 3:18:37

And the problem is, is I feel like that I'm gonna do my best to not let that be what I rate this movie with, even though it's very hard because it's just a bad taste in my mouth. But I will also say that I'm gonna call out a lot of YouTubers and a lot of people in our that that are in our thing that do this. And what I'm gonna say is I think there's a lot of people out there afraid to say what we're saying right now because it sounds, you know, that they're gonna it can be construed to oh, look at these racist guys saying this stuff. And that because that and that's what I feel like it's gonna be turned into. And I mean, well, I don't think thank God we're not quite big enough yet, but someday we will be, and this will probably be our most controversial video. Because I'm gonna tell you, beneath all that hype of, you know, go out there and support your first Black Marvel movie, and it turned into this really wild ride of whether you know, all of a sudden if I think it's a bad movie but I'm white, I got no say anymore. And that tends to be what's happened. So despite what culturally it means to you, and you know what, to some young black kids in the country, it might mean a lot to them, and I do not want to take that from them because it does mean a lot to them because it is their their first understanding of it. So like I take that very seriously. I think that's a real thing, just like with Shane G, just like with all of them that are like this. Um, but what I will say though is I'm not gonna let it blind me to flaws in your movie.

SPEAKER_05 3:20:00

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 3:20:00

So I'm gonna do my best to tell you why there's things in it I don't like that aren't that, but then that on top of it definitely helped the feeling of it being feeling worse because it's like, wait a minute, you if your movie was like pitch perfect, then it would be okay, yeah. I mean, I just gotta get over the message and then and be happy with this movie. But that's not my case, you know. I can get over your message enough, but to still be honest with you and say you your movie's got some problems. And that's that's where I'm gonna be coming from the best I can.

SPEAKER_02 3:20:31

Yeah. Because we're see, at the end of the day, it's not yes, it's about the movie. It's not about the characters, the actors, their skin color, the cultural significance. That's not about that. We're you're trying to tell us a story through a movie, and if there are any flaws, we will point them out, in our opinion. And guys, we might get into a little bit of a debate on something where he would say this is a flaw, and I would say, Let me tell you why I don't think so, or vice versa. And that's okay. That's what we do this on every podcast. We it doesn't matter the color of our skin as your host of the podcast. We should not have to feel uh afraid to talk about a Marvel movie because of the toxic hype that went around this movie, and that's the best way to say it. So uh we're gonna jump right in to this film.

SPEAKER_04 3:21:23

Yeah, I think we're gonna find that most of our differences are gonna be taste. But we might have a couple fun discussions there. But yeah, but when it has come down to taste, it's hard because it might just be something that's and I'm I'm gonna be completely honest to you.

SPEAKER_02 3:21:34

When it gets to some of those social political implications that they want you to take away from this movie, I might have a more nuanced approach to it than maybe maybe you do, or maybe our audience does. And you're gonna hear my point of view of it. Whether you like it or not, I don't care. This is a Marvel podcast, these are our opinions. You don't like it, find somebody else. And with all that love I'm gonna give you, we're gonna dive right in. And I will just start off with reading the first act and we'll break it down. Sounds good. All right. Act one, the film opens with the history of Wakanda, followed by T'Challa's coordination as the new king. Or wait, actually, yes, it is. It's well, it's the fight. It's the ritual fight before his eventual coordination as a new king. This centers around a mission uh later on to Busan, North South Korea, where T'Challa, Nakia, and Okoye attempt to apprehend the black market arms dealer, Ulysses Claw, who is stealing vibranium. This act introduces also the mysterious accomplice, uh I'm sorry, Claw's mysterious accomplice, Eric Kilmonger. Okay, sorry, I kind of butchered that as I was reading it, guys. But anyways, um, so I will start off when it comes to the what work part with I like this history explanation in the beginning. I thought the animation was really well done. I love that they gave a history, not specifically just of Wakanda, but of vibranium at large, because they've already introduced us the idea of Vibranium since Age of Ultron, and we've been able to uh I I would say Age of Ultron played around a lot more, and then we finally were able to. That's why I loved about Black Panther's introduction as his whole corner of the MCU is that slowly through different movies you get a glimpse of something, whether it's vibranium, the mentioning of Wakanda, and then you get right to Civil War where you just are introduced to some of these characters, and now we're finally diving deep into this film and into this culture there that they have in Africa. And I think this is really cool. Um so I like that. Um, I did like the opening sequence that I liked how they filmed it. Meaning that that when they stopped at the crucial moment where you're not sure what happened between the 1990s T'Challa, or I'm sorry, not T'Challa, I'm sorry, 1990s Black Panther and his brother there, you weren't exactly sure what happened. And I love that throughout this movie, especially once you get to the end and you get closer to your climax and resolution, that's where you find out truly what was going on and what happened. I I love storytelling like that because it it leaves you guessing throughout the whole movie of is this guy really right? Is this guy really right? Who did wrong here? Blah blah blah. And I I love that realization when it comes to that at the end. So um, is there anything you want to jump in there and say what you what you like? Um, if stop me at any point if there's um a couple things I really like.

SPEAKER_04 3:24:39

I I I agree with you about the animation in the beginning, it's well creative, I think it's really cool. Um uh the opening scene with the old with the old Black Panther and what's been on there. I agree with you just setting up a kind of its own its own little mystery thing that we're gonna unravel as we go is a good idea. Um the I do love the concept of like what do you call it? What would you like the ritual fights that they gotta do? Yeah, I think that's pretty cool. Part of me wasn't sure about that the first time I saw this movie. I'm kind of like, man, for a society that's like more advanced, it's pretty barbaric. But I'm like, but if if they're really staying true to some roots and trying to be as pure as possible, I kind of like how they do it. And it's really neat, you know, excuse me.

SPEAKER_02 3:25:22

Um yeah. I I like that actually, I like what you just said there. I think I that's what one of the things that did work for me too. I like that balance of honoring your your ancestral roots while also being modern.

SPEAKER_04 3:25:37

I think it would serve better if it leaned on that more.

SPEAKER_02 3:25:42

Than the technological stuff.

SPEAKER_04 3:25:44

Than than the political than social commentary it's got. I think it should lean more on what it means to to honor your ancestral stuff. I know it does somewhat in this quite often, but I kind of wish that that was more of the it's it's more of a descension than it is an ascension in that sense. And then sometimes that maybe that'd be where it loses me. Um I think it as I because I think our villain doesn't think of Waconda. I I know he's got obviously a chip on his shoulder with what's going on, but he doesn't really serve a purpose beyond the revenge of it. And his view of it is so different. And that's some of the Wakanda I'll talk about later that kind of bugs me about this situation. Because it's a great setup for like what's to come, right? Like what's happening I think it's awesome, but like it's almost like a misplaced anger. I know technically that's what they want you to feel, but it doesn't, it just doesn't quite get sold to me enough. But we're that's more that's a little more later than now. Um, because I I do love our the introduction to Killmonger's good, I think.

SPEAKER_02 3:27:00

You know, I mean Well, I think since you already touched upon that, and this is his introduction, when when you're talking about the social political implications of this, I don't think any of that is within Wakanda. That is all through the eyes of Killmonger. He introduces that to Wakanda. I agree. Like, like, and I think then that's something that as we get into this deep dive of the whole movie and everything in each act. That's this is this is the part where I am personally gonna say, for the brilliance of this movie, in my opinion, is that this oppressive worldview is your villain of the movie. And whether people were are taking it this way or not, there's a reason why they gave that worldview to Killmonger and not to Chatala. You are seeing two different people from ideological differences in their background, from where they were raised, where they were brought up, what they were taught, and what they believe come together. And ultimately at the end, with Killmonger's death, that ideological part of him died with it. Yeah. For T'Challa. Now that doesn't mean, and we're gonna get to that in Act Three, that T'Challa doesn't try to move forward in a more progressive way, but it's there is a clear distinction in this movie when it comes to the social political implications of people with brown skin and where they come from and what their cultures are like, the culture of brown people in America versus brown people in Africa are different. And this one, this movie, T'Challa honors his his people and his land, where Killmonger has nothing but resentment, and he feels like he was abandoned by a culture because let's face it, when we get when we get there about what happened in in this early um part, we'll definitely talk about it. So there's there's a there's a hint of validity, but there's not I'm trying to I'm dancing around what I actually want to say because we're just in act one and I don't want to just dive into every single bit of it and in the first act, but this this this is yeah, this is definitely just the introduction of Killmonger also introduces to us as the audience you have a viewpoint now that's completely different, and it's very obvious to me why they made him and that viewpoint the villain of the movie. And I know some people would go into the movie, and we hear this when they come out of the movie Killmonger was one of the best villains, blah blah blah. Honestly, guys, they gave him the best treatment in this movie. They let him flesh out his view, they let him be menacing, they let they let all that social political implications of him bleed out and go on to others, whether they accept there or not, but at the end of the day, he did not survive this movie, and that I feel like is more of a meta uh storytelling of this type of ideology will not survive because there's nothing for it to feed on. You can't live in anger all the time and expect things to get better in that way, and I think the Killmonger is a great uh example of this for this film. So uh whether you agree with me or not, that literally is what this film is telling you. And we're gonna get into every bit of when you see him and what his actions are and how he's trying to prove his point here or there, that why what I just said has more validity to it.

SPEAKER_04 3:30:54

So I I see where where you're coming from.

SPEAKER_06 3:30:58

I do think for right now, I'm still convinced that where I think the movie, for the sake of not trying to say that this is right, they have it set that way to be that way.

SPEAKER_04 3:31:15

Where yes, his ideolog ideological thing is the problem, is kind of the villain of this, and he's the conduit for it. Yes. So that's why the failure of him ultimately is the failure of the ideology. I think that's 100% the meaning of the film. I don't think they succeed without glorifying it, though, and I think that's a problem. So I think that that's what we'll when we get to that act, we'll probably get more into it. But I do think that I agree with you. It's just the question is to what to what means of getting to it, right? And I think that that's where we'll that's what we'll talk about, you know. I think that that was the intention, really, ultimately. But let's do this other stuff though before we get to that, because that that's gonna be part of that whole act.

SPEAKER_02 3:32:02

So Yeah, I okay so all right. Um I'm sorry if I jumped into whatever you're saying uh worked for you or not. Oh no, that was it.

SPEAKER_04 3:32:09

I'll quickly tell you what didn't work for me.

SPEAKER_02 3:32:11

Um Okay.

SPEAKER_04 3:32:13

Two things specifically. Uh it's in some of this is just taste, as or as someone that writes and dabbles with it and and listens and reads other people's stuff. Claws just kind of a whimsical, weird, why is he here thing, you know? And I I wish she didn't feel that way because I love the actor and I think the character is unique. Yeah, I don't get me wrong, there's aspects of his character I like a lot more in this one than they did with Aja Altron. Um, but you I just it's just a coincidence that it happens to be Wakanda's looking for him, and the CIA is trying to set him up, and it happens to be on the same night to one of those ridiculous, obvious, and nonchalant arms dealers. That how have you not found this man? You know what I mean? Like, I just I'm not convinced that it's like I oh we got him, uh, but now it's a conflicting of interest, and now we're all gonna, I'm like, how convenient. And it just it rolled out the carpet for me. And the performance of Claw, as much as I like him, it just was so over. There's no nuance to him. I wish he was in the movie longer, and I wish we could have seen some cleverness out of him, and not just this sparky, I'm a guy that does things and cool. And he just really comes off as he is the most active, flamboyantly like huge, like off-the-top dramatic arms dealer ever. And both the CIA and Wakanda happened that this is our best time to get this guy. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. It kind of bugs me. You know what I mean? Like, it just bugs me. And um, and that's more of a taste thing, because some people it works. It's not, is it real consequential? I guess not. But I when I rate these films, all these Marvel movies, I look at how are they getting from point A to point B in their storytelling. And when you have little things like this that happen, it just makes me go, this isn't the only time it's a very convenient situation that happens in this movie. This is just one of the first. The other thing is that I'm I struggle with um with T'Challa in this opening, in this beginning part.

SPEAKER_06 3:34:22

I think I man, I feel like he falls flat as a king at first.

SPEAKER_04 3:34:31

And I would have more preferred the feeling we got out of T'Challa out of Civil War than we do in this. Because I know in Civil War he's doing a whole revenge journey and he finds out the truth, and that's a very smart man right there that's understanding what's going on. Uh, this Chichala kind of feels I wish his I wish he was more confident and he's learning of a problem that there's that was from the past. But his lack of confidence kind of bugs me in this. It really feels like he's so it's like this new idea of being lost. As I get it, I get it. Honestly, the argument is real flat because you can just say, hey, he's just as you know, he's first king, his father just got killed. Like, this is a lot to say. You're absolutely right. It's just boring. It's boring. This problem he has of how do I be a good king? What should I do? I don't know. You know, it's like I just feel like, okay, this is like if we're sitting down and say, right, Black Panther, we're gonna do a king kingdom and he's gonna do this stuff, what can we put him through? This feels like something a 12-year-old would be like, well, maybe he's just not that confident yet. And it's like, what are we talking about here? Like, we can get a little more sophisticated and a little more hard-hitting on these films. I really it just would come off really boring to me. I I just not buying his path because I'm not really invested in his path, even though it does make sense for him to be in that position and feeling the way he does. But Chadwick, for some reason, these people are the writers, decided. I'm not gonna say Chadwick, because I think he does a great, he actually is gonna be the best performer of it. But I I he for some reason they have him playing this up, I think a little too far into the the weakness of what it would be when this situation has arose. When I liked the idea that he could have shown that confidence, even if the weakness was hidden behind. And I just don't I didn't feel that out of him in the beginning. I'm not saying it doesn't manifest, but it really does make me kind of go, this is just boring. This, this, this whole and it kind of bleeds into act two. This whole I'm the king, someone challenges me, I lose, he takes over, I get saved by enemies, I come back and I take back over and they lose. It's like it's a very boring movie. This is a very boring story. And now I'm not saying everything in it is boring, but it is kind of like a okay. It's a little obvious, which is maybe it has to be. But for my taste, you know, you talk about an MCU that we just got done taking huge swings, we're going taking chances, we got talking raccoons, like this movie was a bring back to reality, but maybe a little too far back.

SPEAKER_02 3:37:19

So, what parts did you interpret him as not being confident?

SPEAKER_04 3:37:25

I think it's the feel of just him just discussing things with, especially with sh with Sherry, like just and then when he goes and talks with his dad, like trying to get the whole, you know, what what should I do as king and all that? I don't know, I just I really felt I don't know, I just feel like there was a regalness about him when we first met him in Civil War that I don't feel here. And maybe it's because we're in his in Wakanda now. Maybe that's what it is, and and it's my problem and not the movie's problem. All I know is I think it's more just the storyline itself, because he really is kind of questioning, you know, he's really trying to figure out how to be the right kind of king, right? That's his big deal in this whole thing, ultimately.

SPEAKER_02 3:38:06

From from what I get, I so f for me, I didn't see any of the um uh not confidence stuff. I yes, he is trying to find his footing as as a king, what he does. He's used to being a little more of a tactical type uh role as the prince because he is the Black Panther. His dad couldn't be the Black Panther, he is the king's, you know, yada yada yada type thing. Um the honor and tradition by doing the ri the combat ritual, and then he that that is supposed to prove he is the ultimate guy that's supposed to be king, blah, blah, blah. Um, I never I never saw him not pursue not expouse that confidence when he walked around, he was talking with Nakia, and he had his soldiers around him. He he actually seemed more relaxed in this film than he did Civil War. But of course, all you saw him in Civil War is he lost his dad and he's just mad most of the time, and we get it. Like valid, we understand. But at the same time, I think one of the things that this film does, and we're gonna get into that when we get into the the third act mostly, is dare I say it right now? Maybe I shouldn't say that for the third act. I'm gonna say for the third act, but what I'm gonna say is I didn't see that lack of confidence personally myself. Um I I see him as a little more ambitious of a young king, and he's trying to live up to ideals that he feels his father had.

SPEAKER_04 3:39:47

I I agree.

SPEAKER_02 3:39:49

And then in the third act, you see how that crumbles.

SPEAKER_04 3:39:52

I agree. I and I think I'm this is where the taste part of it comes. I'm a little bored with it.

SPEAKER_06 3:39:59

Hmm.

SPEAKER_04 3:40:00

So it's not That's why I said I'm more there's I'm not gonna I don't wanna take points off of it for this reason.

SPEAKER_06 3:40:11

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_04 3:40:11

Um I'm gonna take a point somewhat of a point a little bit of a point somewhat of a point about the claw stuff because I do think it's underutilized. Okay. And I do think it needed to do something better there. I don't like movies that use convenience that much. This much. This is only once so far, but trust me, I got a few other ones. Um the convenience of a few things really bugs me, but I just am not invested in him right off the bat. And I really wanted to be. And I I just kind of wish this movie took a little more chances on like maybe on when it was being told and the pacing of what's happening, you know? Uh, but that once again, like I said, I don't wanna I because I can't I I can't give you a specific moment off the top of my head right now where he alludes to a certain weakness that shows, but it's just there's something about him that just doesn't feel I kind of wish I we had a T'Cala that was a more in touch with the reality of he's more confident about serving that purpose from his ancestors because I would have liked the revelation of the stuff that was being hidden later to have more weight of a surprise to him than of a discovery. Does that make sense? I would have liked him to be overconfident from the start and be humbled to realizing it rather than him slowly coming into it. Because he's got many moments in this movie where he kind of his his emotions take over, you know, and then the times where his emotions would take over, it doesn't. It feels very inconsistent with me sometimes. You know, and and if and it feels inconsistent with them even with the introduction of him in Civil War. Because sure, he was emotional, he was gonna kill Bucky. Once he got all the information though, you know, he could do what Iron Man couldn't, which is see the difference between controlled Bucky and non-controlled Bucky. And that's because there's a there's a smartness about it and there's something about him that is different. I'm not saying he's lacking this in this, he's got it. But I would have liked to see I kind of would have rather him be a little more of a cockier king and more, hey, I got this. Yeah, I'll go talk to my dad about, you know, maybe talking to him about is this the right thing to do, maybe, but that's kind of what that discussion was. But I I would have rather seen the confidence in him get torn down a little to be humble to become a better king, than him. This is he's almost too perfect. Look how humble he is. He's being slow, he's taking his time, he's figuring it out, he's still being a king, he's still doing all. But then he finds out the dark secrets. And like I just, it just is kind of I don't know. I wanted to see more of a journey out of his, out of the out of the spectacle of what it is to be a king in Wakanda. Saying, you know, I got problems with Wakanda later. Like in general, the people there for a place that's so proud about hiding and doing the best that they can. That never mind, we'll talk about what you get to. To me, it's like no one's gonna be like, listen anyway. Hold on, we'll get to it actually. I'm sorry. But there's yeah, anyways. So, yeah, that my biggest issue that I am gonna hang my hat on though is the claw thing was just this is a is a guy. You guys didn't find this dude. Like, I I'm not buying it. I'm not buying the situation. I do love the casino fight though. It's awesome. Yeah, this is my best choreography in the MCU.

SPEAKER_02 3:43:34

Is that my standout moment, maybe?

SPEAKER_04 3:43:36

It's mine.

SPEAKER_02 3:43:37

Yeah, I put I put both. I put the ritual combat scene and the South Korea mission to me are my standout moments. Yeah, but yeah, that that well in particular, chasing everything. I was gonna say the Korean um the South Korean mission. Um where is that okay, there it is. Let me make sure I'm saying it right. Oh, I wrote down my funniest moment on this part too. Anyways, um sorry guys, I'm going through my notes here that I made. The standout moment for the South Korea mission for me was the car chase scene. Everything inside the the Korea thing, it was cool. It but to me it was just a it was just a cool action sequence.

SPEAKER_04 3:44:22

It wasn't I like watching what these women can do with them staff. Holy lord.

SPEAKER_02 3:44:26

I I love the one that was just on our screen when she I that what I love about the car chase scene in particular is they're using their technology as an advancement. And even this one part where she says guns, so primitive, it's because they're shooting a vibranium car that is just it literally just looks like sparks are flying off it, which is kind of cool. But I love how she gets on top of the car and she's like aiming her spear and she she throws it, it goes through the car, and it was not meant to the spear going through the car was not meant to stop it. It was where it landed that was meant to stop it. That stuff is genius, that is really well written, and as we see for the CGI and everything for this, well performed and well well uh filmed. Um everything about the car sequences is probably I would dare say this is my if I can't say it's my favorite car sequence, but it's it's almost on par with what we saw in Civil War car sequence. That I loved that car sequence uh fight. But this one, I feel like because it was Ice Late, the just Black Panther, and they use every bit of his technology, his suit, the the female warrior's staff, and what Shuri's able to do, remote control the car type thing, is really well done. And it it highlighted every character, I feel like.

SPEAKER_04 3:45:52

Yeah, I I agree. This this is excellent filmmaking right here. They do a great job, and it's that some of the stunts are good. Uh CGI gets a little shoddy for me, but I can I can ignore that with what it's given. Um, but I will tell you, uh yeah, whatever Claw's weapon does, it's freaking amazing looking. Um it's definitely maybe top three car sequences in the MCU. I you still haven't beat Nick Fury's in Winter Soldier.

SPEAKER_02 3:46:20

I agree. That that that's right.

SPEAKER_04 3:46:21

That is like that's just you know pulls a gun up out of the middle of it. So that's ridiculous. So good opinion is so good. So this is we there's a long way to go to hit that. You know what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_02 3:46:34

I agree. I mean, this is great though. I think this is definitely like you said, within the top three minimum it's high. Yeah, and you could tell by the the the thought they put into this, every every moment of it. And yeah, his his hand, how it does that, it's I love it's a compliment to the comic version of him who actually does lose his hand. And and he just in the comic though, he just has this weird uh sonic looking thing. It's no hand at all. It's just just doing it's just doing that. But this I love how it's basically a regular hand that turns into that. That's cool.

SPEAKER_04 3:47:08

And I like the usage of the suit with the energy blasts and all that. Yeah, yeah, I like that this is a new thing.

SPEAKER_02 3:47:13

Yeah, this is the first time I didn't realize this that this was the nanotechnology we see in the MCU. Before Iron Man's nanotechnology, we saw this one.

SPEAKER_05 3:47:20

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:47:21

I thought that was really interesting, and I thought that was really cool. Uh anyways, so yeah, that that one. And I'm gonna back up for a little bit and then my other standout moment, the ritual combat thing. I I do like that scene. I liked where they use the technology to make the that spot in the waterfall. So I thought that was pretty cool looking. I loved seeing the different tribes and they're represented by different colors, and some of them that I mean, that that one guy with that big thing in his lips. Yeah, what's ouch? Yeah, like calm down. I yeah, that I you know what it's a cultural thing. I love I know it's a cultural thing, but hey, come on, we could comment on that stuff. You comment on ours. Yeah, that that I literally wrote on one of my things, um, come on, man. Yeah, seriously, like why, but why? Anyways, so the the soup, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_04 3:48:15

Like, I just like this like things that you're not doing in your mouth.

SPEAKER_02 3:48:19

Straw. He has to eat everything through a straw, and now that's by choice. Like, yikes, dude. Anyways, but I will say, at least it did it. There are people actually in Africa that do look like that. So it is very very culturally appropriate, accurate, I should say. So, congratulations, but still, just for us that aren't used to that or aren't accustomed to that, ouch, just looking at it hurts. Um I agree. That's it. That's it. It's not being mean.

SPEAKER_04 3:48:50

Yes, yes, yes.

SPEAKER_02 3:48:51

This is not being mean, this is just saying that's not for us. So, um, I just I did love the representation, the different colors and all that stuff. And I love Shiri's line when they're like, Does anyone from the royal blood want to uh challenge him? And she and she says, This corset is really tight, so can we all go home now? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like that's hilarious. I I I love Shiri in this movie. Oh, yeah, yeah, like amazing. Um, she she's just really cool. I love her whole thing. I called them sneakers. Like I can't I can't do what kind of an accent to save my life, and I'm not gonna attempt it really because it'll be bad. Yeah. It's very distinct. Like I feel like T'Chala is the one that really nails it, but all the rest of them, it's kind of like it's a it's a mixture. Yeah, yeah. I think that's actually appropriate to what our history said about it, is that they just try to do a mixture of different cultures, so they just try to do a mixture of different accents, and that's that's what they came up with the work on an accent.

SPEAKER_04 3:49:56

Yeah, we meet Umbaku here, right?

SPEAKER_02 3:49:58

Yes, we do.

SPEAKER_04 3:49:59

He comes off as like a villain from a different movie, right? Like I like Umbaku.

SPEAKER_02 3:50:03

Yeah. When his his uh what the Jabari tribe, that's what they are. They're and they're all walking out. I'm like, oh my gosh, what's going on here? Intimidating. I yes, yeah, I do like his speaking. Uh I'm I'm trying to remember one or two of the lines of how he it's just how he delivers them. Yo, own fada. And I'm like, it's father. Okay, but whatever. It's just it's just really cool and very creative, I would say. But it uh it definitely is something that sticks out to me like, oh, okay. Um, but I did I liked I liked that scene of them fighting and him showing that he has to prove himself without the Black Panther powers, which is that's that's probably the one thing I will say I really do have a little bit of an issue with the movie is the um what juice is that that gets rid of the Black Panther power? Is it the same thing as what gives it to him?

SPEAKER_06 3:50:57

I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 3:50:57

Is it one of those things of it either give it to you or take it away by the same heart-shaped herb? It's convenient though, isn't it? It looks just like the heart-shaped herb juice because of this purple stuff he drinks, but like I don't know. That's the part that's never explained because I feel like that's something they could have used towards the end of depowering Killmonger a little bit, but I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 3:51:18

And it's kind of like with this juice stuff, it's like so there's Black Panther is awesome and one of one of the coolest, you know, superheroes in the group. He's got one real bad weakness.

SPEAKER_03 3:51:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 3:51:31

You know, it's like purple juice.

SPEAKER_03 3:51:35

Yes!

SPEAKER_02 3:51:39

Literally that's that's one of the biggest parts I feel of the whole movie, and I'm only gonna touch about an act one. Yeah, they they don't that they don't exp they never by the way.

SPEAKER_04 3:51:52

This makes you weak. Here you go. No one's like that safe something.

SPEAKER_02 3:51:55

We have we have to I have to just draw conclusions of what that stuff actually is because it they don't explain, they explain really well what gives the Black Panther powers the hardship herb. They're doing the whole thing, they're drinking it, all the covering them, all that stuff. Cool, I love it. But to get rid of the powers, they never explain what that process is.

SPEAKER_04 3:52:15

A villain out there that's coming up with a blow dart version of this, and he's just like, oh I can't do it no more.

SPEAKER_02 3:52:20

It's like it's over.

SPEAKER_04 3:52:21

It's like, dude, what are we talking about here?

SPEAKER_02 3:52:23

Yeah, I'm not right there. That's that's the only thing, and what's funny is I don't I don't recall in Wakanda Forever, and we're gonna get to there when we get there so I can have it more fresher in my brain. I'll try to remember this for then. Um I don't recall that happening. I don't I don't recall either I don't even recall the Will Tro combat in that one for Shiri taking over.

SPEAKER_04 3:52:47

No, no either. There is though, isn't there?

SPEAKER_06 3:52:51

I I feel like there is. There should be.

SPEAKER_04 3:52:55

Does she take over as queen?

unknown 3:52:57

No.

SPEAKER_02 3:52:57

Yes. She does she's it's the end of it where she relinquishes queen, but because her mom's been queen the whole time, and she just takes over the power, and that's one of her frustrations, is that I've lost my I buried my husband and I've buried my son, and I have to I have to be the one stable person in this nation, and all of a sudden she dies. Um and so Shiri is there's that's the point of the whole movie is there's really no Black Panther, no, no taking over. Then Shiri, the princess, just automatically becomes Black Panther and and Queen. There's no ritual combat thing.

SPEAKER_04 3:53:32

See, I always assumed you you don't have to be king and Black Panther. No, you don't you don't because when we met Chital, he was already Black Panther.

SPEAKER_02 3:53:39

Yep, and Tichaka was still king.

SPEAKER_04 3:53:40

Right. Yeah, okay. So she could have been Black Panther, not Queen. But I but I think you're right. I think she was. Yeah, you're right.

SPEAKER_02 3:53:46

I think she was until the end of the movie when they made she made Umbaku the king.

SPEAKER_06 3:53:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:53:53

And so he's king and she's still princess slash Black Panther. So, okay. We'll find out more in Doomsday. Yeah, yeah. That's not the best movie.

SPEAKER_04 3:54:04

Yeah, just because right now the juice don't drink it.

SPEAKER_02 3:54:07

Yeah, well, that's the thing, just another drink in my life if I was these guys.

SPEAKER_04 3:54:12

You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 3:54:13

I don't yeah, I don't know. So that that's my only thing I'd say that didn't work for me is they never explained what that juice is, and I feel like in doing that, that could be technically considered later on the waste potential of this film of missed opportunity.

SPEAKER_04 3:54:28

Yeah. And that bugs me. It's once again, it's at at the behest of the narrative, we're gonna be cool. Yeah, and Claw was fun and cool, but how do you not find that man? And I like the juice is like there and unexplained, and it's depowering, and no one's gonna talk about it again, and we're just gonna pretend it didn't happen.

SPEAKER_02 3:54:47

That's the thing.

SPEAKER_04 3:54:48

I like an awesome scene.

SPEAKER_02 3:54:49

I like that scene. I think it's like you just said, it's an awesome scene. I like even the method that he has to depower in order to really prove it's just him that can prove to be king without the need of the Black Panther crux. I love that. The problem is you've introduced us to the substance that does that, and you never flush it out. And that that it that becomes a glaring problem throughout later on in the movie when he's does the same thing with Killmonger. He has to take that out of him and all that stuff and whatever.

SPEAKER_04 3:55:18

Like it's that's the that that to me it's like showing a green rock makes Superman. That's like the have no power and be weak, but then never talking about the rock.

SPEAKER_02 3:55:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 3:55:32

Like, by the way, what was that?

SPEAKER_02 3:55:33

Oh, it's just you know that's like that's the hole in this poster, in this film's poster, basically. It's what what is that? Anyways, yeah. Um so uh d do we want to score act one? Yeah. Alright, what would you give it?

SPEAKER_04 3:55:46

I give it a good solid seven out of ten.

SPEAKER_02 3:55:49

Oh, okay. All right, higher than I thought. I gave it an eight out of ten.

SPEAKER_04 3:55:52

A lot of good stuff.

SPEAKER_02 3:55:53

Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot of good stuff. There is. Uh though I um Yeah, there is. I don't know how I'll have other comments for it. But we'll get it. We'll see when we get there. Alright, why don't you read Act 2? So Act Two.

SPEAKER_04 3:56:10

Kilmonger kills Claw, or yeah, Claw, brings his body to Wakanda, and reveals he is T'Challa's cousin. Oh boy. By right of blood, he challenges T'Challa for the throne. Kilmonger defeats T'Challa in ritual combat, claims a crown, and sets out to distribute Wakanda weapons to oppress people globally. T'Challa is presumed dead after being thrown off a cliff, but survives.

SPEAKER_02 3:56:38

Yeah. In my notes, I purposely cross off the the and I should have done it for years when I was doing this form of the the survive part, because I thought, all right, I probably shouldn't spoil that at that point because this really is.

SPEAKER_04 3:56:50

Yeah, but nobody in the world thought he died.

SPEAKER_02 3:56:52

I was just gonna say I agree.

SPEAKER_04 3:56:55

They weren't just gonna kill this guy, it's not gonna happen. Yeah. It's in to me that's boring. This has Lion King vibes.

SPEAKER_02 3:57:04

It does have Lion King. You know what, but I like that more now. I don't for that reason. Because kind of like Lion King. Lion King, Africa, Wakanda, Africa, numbers, uh taking your dad on. I'm like I like it. You don't like it. This is sometimes this is Marvel's Lion King. Well, that's that's part of their Disney. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 3:57:25

They're just like Disney. Can we borrow Lion King for a while? Sure.

SPEAKER_02 3:57:28

Yeah. Boo. Boo. All taste guys. So what worked for me? Well, I will say this act in particular is where the soap opera seriousness and drama comes into play for the most part. Uh you know, for some people you could say that uh Killmonger Killing Shaw, which actually and Shaw. Claw. Sorry. I was thinking of Sebastian Shaw. Killing, yeah, right. Uh Killmonger Killing Claw, some people would say was was a surprise to them. It wasn't to me, because this has been going on in MCU for a while. Well, yeah, well, not only that, I saw early on with some of Killmonger's behavior and what his ultimate goal was was to once he said, I want to get to Wakanda, I immediately knew, oh, you're killing Claw. I immediately knew that because there's there to me, him going to and then killing him, and even uh Killmonger killing his girlfriend there, that was not a surprise to me. Because at that moment, you saw the dedication of Killmonger saying, I'm going to Wakanda no matter what anyone says. And I was able to see there Wakanda is trying to go after Claw. They want him dead or alive in Wakanda. And T'Challa was not able to do it. So it was easy for me to see, oh, I know what's going to happen next. He's going to kill Claw. That's going to be his way to enter Wakanda, and that's what they did. And so part of me is like, I get it for the storytelling purpose and progression in the story, but me being able to decipher that so early on for that this act in particular, I'm like, ooh, does that mean I'm gonna predict the whole rest of the movie?

SPEAKER_05 3:59:24

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 3:59:25

And it does. Sorry.

SPEAKER_05 3:59:27

I'm sorry, but that's yes, it does.

SPEAKER_02 3:59:30

Well, I for for me, the the ending when we get there, I did not see it coming, and I'm happy for it. But anyways, uh I will say they make some good attempts, but it's still that's that's the that honestly is the one part of this whole act I say for me personally that does that I put under the doesn't work is that they took away from me the element of surprise.

SPEAKER_04 3:59:54

So far, we got the juice and the element of surprise by doing uh yes. I like that.

SPEAKER_02 3:59:58

I like that good. Yep. See, I do I do have slowly to the dark side. I do have I do have some qualms uh like we just said about this movie, but overall, I don't think that that took away from the story that I like they're telling, though. That's me. Anyways, um what else did I put for what I liked? Um his introduction is the museum, though, right? Yes, in in the first act, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 4:00:27

Yeah, we didn't touch on that. I'm just gonna say real quick. Okay, I I do like his introduction, though. Yes. It's very good. Yeah. Um, because it isn't just killing, you know, there's some, but like it's not, you know what I mean? I do like that he's he seems like a put together person. Yeah. You can tell this is a smart villain. He's not a guy. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 4:00:44

Yeah, he leaves the killing the claw. He's just there to point out the the vibranium.

SPEAKER_04 4:00:49

Yeah, and I will tell you the claw thing is kind of, yeah. I mean, not only that, but it also proves that they really had no intentions of doing anything with that character either, other than putting him in this movie and in the connection to the vibrant Owganda. Which is to me kind of bugs me because it makes it even more like, yeah, what a what a plot device, and that's all that character was. And I just didn't like that. And I guess you could argue everything has that, right? But you can be done better than that, from from my in my opinion, but that's just me. So I agree and agree with this claw thing. Took a lot of surprise out of stuff. But then once again, I'm not surprised. Bad guys killing other bad guys? Oh, yeah, do it all the time.

SPEAKER_02 4:01:27

Do it all the time. Yeah. Now and for this bad guy in particular, I feel like you saw his drive and motivation so early on that it made some of his future actions very predictable.

SPEAKER_04 4:01:37

Yeah, yeah. Agreed. And did he need Claw to find Wakanda, or he just used it to to make it like he looked like he uh see, I get shit done, right? Is basically what he did it for. He didn't need claw to find Wakanda, right? I don't Am I mistaken on that?

SPEAKER_02 4:01:54

Let me let me think about that for a moment, because No, I don't think so.

SPEAKER_04 4:02:00

He just used the claw as the way to show that he did.

SPEAKER_02 4:02:02

Yep. And actually we have it in the the back of our screen right now, guys.

SPEAKER_04 4:02:06

But he it wasn't that claw showing him how to get there.

SPEAKER_02 4:02:09

No, I think he I think he always knew how to get to Wakanda.

SPEAKER_04 4:02:14

Yeah, because I got questions.

SPEAKER_02 4:02:15

Because because actually there's that scene, I don't think it's in this one, maybe it's in the last act, honestly, that um he reads his father's stuff, so he knows all about Wakanda. He probably knows where it's located and it's a cloaking device and all that different stuff.

SPEAKER_04 4:02:31

He knows a lot about Wakanda versus when it's not his bed.

SPEAKER_02 4:02:34

Yes, and I think that's revealed in that dream sequence of him seeing his dad again. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 4:02:39

I don't care for the feeling of even then, is it that detailed? Because it seems like he walks in like he's owned the place for a while.

SPEAKER_02 4:02:48

Those notes look that notebook looked pretty thick and detailed on his times of Wakanda.

SPEAKER_04 4:02:53

I just don't feel like they sold it to me.

SPEAKER_02 4:02:54

To me, that didn't bother me because the I understood that he and he explains it in his ritual in the third act. I'm sorry we're jumping along to that. But um well it all relates. Yeah, he does he explains in actually no, this isn't this act. I'm sorry. This isn't this act when he's challenging Tachala and they do the ritual combat. So I'm on the right page page here. Um he explains to him and he's waited his whole life to do this. He's prepared the thousands of people he's killed trying to better himself, trying to better himself so he's ready to take on the king of Wakanda.

SPEAKER_04 4:03:27

So I always assumed that was him becoming a warrior, but I didn't think it's he knew where all these rooms were, he knew what everything was doing. I I feel like there's a lot of things he knows about that I they I don't they kind of just kind of glossed over. Like he's just but I can I can chalk that up to maybe that was in that book.

SPEAKER_02 4:03:44

Yep. Cause he it just kind of feels when he's doing that dream, yeah, he's doing that dream sequence, that little thing. Um the book thing just kind of feels it's convenient.

SPEAKER_04 4:03:53

He immediately wrote down the code to the chair to make it more comfortable. I mean, I just I'm not saying it happens in the movie, but it he's so like lived in already, it's like well kinda's nothing there that makes him feel out of place or that it is a challenge to him, and it really makes me kind of go. It's like he'd been there many times.

SPEAKER_02 4:04:11

Well, in his head he was in his head he has, because when he he knows exactly when he goes into that dream sequence as of a kid, he knows where the books are hidden, he takes the thing off, he opens up the the the panel of the um their kitchen area there, whatever in the apartment. He starts reading and looking through the books, and that's when his deceased father and his vision comes in and says, What have I told you about going through through my books? And he's explained here in this act that ever since he was a child, he's been told stories of Wakanda. He's been wanting to do nothing but he has hatred in his heart for what happened to his father, and he doesn't want to go to Wakanda until he can make a change.

SPEAKER_04 4:04:54

It was the first thing that stuck out to me as like you're pretty comfortable for someone that's not been there before.

SPEAKER_02 4:04:59

So I'm like, no, it's kind of like if we took a book of the White House and we're just reading it every bit when from the crown molding to everything and where they go and the map and all that. Then we finally go like two or three years later and we get the tour, be like, oh, take the hall down to the left, to the right. There's the the best bathroom in the world, you know? Something like that. To me, that's how I would have played it. Yeah. So, anyways, because his dad was not just any old Wakanda, his dad was royal bloodline. That's why, yeah. So he would know all the intimate parts of it. Yeah. All right. Um yeah, this this is the same act that explains who uh um the killmonger is, and that they all say uh I it actually it's literally right on our screen right now, guys. It's so funny because I'm reading on my notes, I'm like, yeah, this is true. So they're saying that he's what um the killmonger is Wakandon, and then that's when uh Ross there says, no, no, he's one of ours, because Ross knows his whole actual background. He explains how this is a guy, very smart guy, graduated MIT, then joined the American Navy SEALs, and uh his he was one of those rare people that was sculpted and made to help them topple governments, which is actually touching upon some very real things that within our own country, if we have CIA members that know of this stuff type thing, you know, like conspiracy theory or not, but that's definitely the the he's use they're using that as who Killmonger is in this film, that he's one of those guys they would send in to do those dirty things, whether it's through an election time or a king passing away, which is probably why actually that makes more sense why he's doing it now, is because they're they have a new king.

SPEAKER_06 4:06:52

Wow. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 4:06:56

That makes more sense. All right. I I'd sorry guys, I had a little bit of a like a light bulb going in my head, be like, oh yeah, that's right. That's why he's waited until now.

SPEAKER_04 4:07:06

I think we look at that in two different ways.

SPEAKER_02 4:07:08

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 4:07:08

Where you see a positive light bulb, I see a No, I don't like it.

SPEAKER_02 4:07:13

It's He's waiting for new, fresh, naive blood to go in, and it's his cousin.

SPEAKER_04 4:07:22

I guess. But what about the rest of the O'Condens? How many people does he take in there with him when he does this whole thing? He takes this place over, brings Claw in, makes a big deal. I'm your cousin, blah blah blah blah blah boo-hoo, whatever. You know, he gets in there, he does his thing, he does the challenge. Well, who's his crew? What has he got an army with him? Well, we both watched this movie. I don't see that, right? How many people has he got? So he goes a handful of mercenary guys, and he's got this traitor ass.

SPEAKER_02 4:07:50

That's true, traitor is right.

SPEAKER_04 4:07:51

That's pretty much all these guys, this traitor ass was with his clan, who Umbaku could beat by himself, right? Yeah, let's be honest. These all of them look like weak little bitches.

SPEAKER_02 4:08:00

You know what I'm saying? Umbaku doesn't care about the rest of the tribes because of historical separation of of all their tribes, anyways. Yes, I I agree with you there. And yes, he is this traitor, traitor ass is the best way to describe him. Um but see that's that's one of the problems with not the film, but with I don't want to say this to sound bad, so please do not hate me for saying this, but you gotta point out you gotta point out the obvious. This part of their royal culture of who takes succession is too simple.

SPEAKER_06 4:08:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:08:45

And too loopholy is the best way to say it. Well, I think because he was able to single-handedly go in there, his peace offering, so he gets some friends there with traitor ass is dumb enough to you know take his bullshit. But I I hey, I actually understand where he comes from because he says the claw killed my parents, and now this guy actually does something the two kings at this point couldn't do. I agree. Not saying it's right, but I see his point of view. Like, okay, I'm gonna follow this guy because he gets shit done. Yeah, what a friend. Yeah, yeah. Bad friend, but at the same time, the child is best friend. He's look yeah, yeah, that's true. That is true.

SPEAKER_04 4:09:31

Gotcha, but this is like my bestie. Like you're not questioning this at all. That's if he knew how he got claw, he'd be like, wait a minute, you're a bitch ass too. I agree. You know what I'm saying? Like, yeah, but that's beside the point for for it. Of the th of the friend.

SPEAKER_03 4:09:51

It does, yeah. It does.

SPEAKER_04 4:09:52

How much of a friend it shows how bad of a friend that guy is. Yeah. So I'm not I'm just saying that for funsies. You know, that's not a problem with the movie, by the way, guys. Yeah, it's just a funsies way to look at it. What a friend. But I'm saying like what I was what I was a guy that needs a punch in the face. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 4:10:11

What I was saying right before, uh I liked his name Trader S. That's a good name. Anyways.

SPEAKER_04 4:10:21

It's his new name now.

SPEAKER_02 4:10:23

Great actor, love you, actually character. Oh, okay. Yep, I get it. I understand actually. Yeah, but anyways, um not just the the what I was saying, the this the cultural weakness of this royal family of how to become kings.

SPEAKER_04 4:10:41

Yes. That's my issue with this whole thing.

SPEAKER_02 4:10:42

That's that that part, they see, of course, Killmonger knows all this. That's why he feels confident enough to single-handedly go over there and do this.

SPEAKER_04 4:10:52

Wakanda. Yes, that's my problem with it. Where it's like, sure, you you're of bloodline, you've kind of proven it. You did just kind of show up and say it, which maybe we should wait for the blood test. But you know, but let's just skip it and get to the big stuff, right? Yeah. So we're gonna skip all this stuff to prove that you could sound to me any black guy could walk in there and say what he just said, and they're gonna be like, shit, what do we know? You know, it's like I would have liked to see a little more proof being done of this, just more than his knowledge, but it's okay. That's uh it's convenient, and he's here doing they drink their juice and become stupid. Like, I still don't get it. I don't like it. I don't like the way he does shit there either. It's a very awkward scene between him and his shaman guy, but they're a better placement of things. I'm not happy with the way they're bouncing. It's weird. So, like if it's going on, fuck me. I mean, I love this whole scene, though, by the way.

SPEAKER_03 4:11:47

Some some of their moments I got the wrong moments.

SPEAKER_04 4:11:50

It's weird, guys, when it's silent, like when it's on and we can listen to it, it's normal. It's like looking over and it's silent, and people are doing some things, and they're like, what are we watching again? I do, I do love some of their moments like yeah, but in the silence, it's obvious. So this okay, so he comes in, claims he's blood, we can really prove it. Yep, but he goes for it anyways, it works, takes his shirt off, has all these cool, you know, whatever the hell.

SPEAKER_02 4:12:21

Scars. Yeah. It's supposed it's supposed to represent every kill he's done.

SPEAKER_04 4:12:25

Yeah, it just looks like he's got bumpy skin. And so he needs cereb. Yeah, like it's like he someone needs to call a dermatologist. Uh because kill hunger has spinning the sun too much. Um, but anyway.

SPEAKER_03 4:12:43

He's got the cancer.

SPEAKER_04 4:12:44

Which is one of this is a great fight. It's a little brief, but it's a great fight. Um at what point, though, as Wakanda people, do they need to sit back and say, you know, this guy kind of is un. If they're so hardcore in picky about their traditions that this guy can get away with doing this because this is a tradition, then why is it when he's breaking their traditions, they just act like they're an oppressed city all of a sudden with a guy and a handful of military dudes. They got an entire city and army and other people that can be like, you know what, dude? No.

SPEAKER_02 4:13:21

I could I could defend that.

SPEAKER_04 4:13:22

This is a problem.

SPEAKER_02 4:13:24

They're so comfy and conditioned in their little isolation Wakanda bubble that they just blindly go along with whatever the king is saying.

SPEAKER_04 4:13:33

All of them, though, all of them.

SPEAKER_02 4:13:35

Well, see, that's that's one of the driving forces behind this is that they split.

SPEAKER_04 4:13:44

The people of Wacanda that just live there, like you and I, everyday people, sure. But there's an army of people that not one of them was like, hey guys, by the way, he's burning the leaves of something that we hold dear to us, and we're just like, but he's king because he beat him in a competition. No one even checked to see if he's blood. For an advanced civilization, I understand the people being weak, but you can't tell me they don't got an army that kicks a lot of ass. Because they do. And other tribes.

SPEAKER_02 4:14:20

None of them are like well, this is not good.

SPEAKER_04 4:14:23

Well, you know, one thing that I notice is when you get to the end battle Should we just He clearly does things though that bug me that nobody stands out, like nobody's like, oh wait a minute This isn't right, this is not what we do. You might be king, but it's pretty sketchy circumstances even if it's at the at the behe now. If he walked in with an army, I'd be like, okay, look, he just murders this other guy. Like in this, he murders this guy. Yeah. Like I it's like, this is this the tr it's you you're so traditioned that you're gonna allow someone to piss all over your tradition, and they're not gonna be like, uh-uh, we're not letting this fly. It's gotta be him coming back like the Lion King to save everybody. Where's where is everyone that would have been like, no way?

SPEAKER_02 4:15:19

Because they don't know how to go outside of their traditional knowledge.

SPEAKER_04 4:15:22

Nah, that's bull crap. I think that's an excuse, and I think it's lazy. I think it's lazy writing. It's you're just gonna have all these all even the we have to.

SPEAKER_02 4:15:32

Yeah, yeah, that's never happened before that one Dora Milaza, isn't there something that can be done? And Okoya is just like, Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 4:15:40

Like, that's never happened before. No one's ever done that, but no one's gonna say, maybe that's a problem. Oh, by the way, now he's gonna burn all the stuff that makes you powerful, or the thing that is the this flower they got that's whatever that is. I can't remember the name of whatever they call it.

SPEAKER_02 4:15:56

Um the heart-shaped herb. Thank you.

SPEAKER_04 4:15:58

He's just gonna burn it all, like and then later tells them, by the way, give all your weapons to a bunch of people out there that are oppressed. And they're all just like, well, we have to. He did win in combat. There, they're so did who took the blood test? Oh, I didn't. Oh, he could just be some guy from the street. Yeah, I'm just it's just like for a society or for a city that that's hidden from the world, that are uh purposely hidden from the world, and so far advanced to have such a barbaric way to become king, and it'd just be this easy.

SPEAKER_02 4:16:35

Why is it now that so is I don't know if it that if this is explained or not in the movie, but is every Wakanda with that thing, or is that just a royal bloodline? Because they asked to prove that you're Wakanda. Maybe, and he does that, and they're all like cool, he must be.

SPEAKER_04 4:16:56

Alright, fine. So he puts a tattoo on his lip from the books that he read. I'm just saying.

SPEAKER_02 4:17:00

Yeah, you don't I don't know how all that works.

SPEAKER_04 4:17:03

Someone could have told him that. I'm with you. Let's say that he proves his bloodline through the tattoo. Fine, whatever. Still, you're still not gonna be like, but look what you're doing to the throwing. Uh yeah. There's not one faction of people out there trying to stop his ass. Well, that see, as one thing simple to come back and do this in the third act, you only see one tribe working with him.

SPEAKER_02 4:17:24

You don't see any of the other tribes. They might not be working with them, but they can come on.

SPEAKER_04 4:17:28

Well, I've think you know what I'm trying to get at. And because I know it's just saying, okay, yes, they see one tribe, which is bitch ass's tribe, right? Yeah, traitor ass. Yeah. Yeah. But you're telling me the others weren't like, there's not that half of these people who swore to protect the king. Okay, yeah, he became king, but then it's like there's not some elder group. Oh, there is, but he just killed him in front of everybody. You see what I'm saying? The the people that would tell them that this is wrong is what we're doing, they're watching him do it, and they're just like, okay. You know, it's like it's it's like us getting a president. Don't freak out online because you're all gonna think I'm talking about somebody specific. I'm not, but it's like us getting a president and just deciding, you know what, I'm gonna rewrite the constitution. And we're just like, damn, too bad we can't do nothing about it because he's the president.

SPEAKER_02 4:18:18

Yeah, oh wait, there's checks and balances. We can. They don't have checks and balances. That's how this is how bad their cultural norms and their royal family structure is. That's why I can't, I don't believe Wakanda.

SPEAKER_04 4:18:35

Yeah, it bothers me. You've been so successful about being hidden, but you're this close all the time to complete catastrophe with just one guy that claims to be you. I mean, he's right, he is them. Okay, fine. I'm not gonna dispute. This is stupid that they don't they'll look further than a mark on his lip because someone could have lied to him, right? But to allow him to do it because is all the answer is bothers me. Like, let him do it, let him throw it off the waterfall, and get that far. I would even say get as far as like what are we supposed to do? This guy's obviously crazy. But the minute that he burns that stuff, at what point is he now changing what you even believe as a person that's there? The thing that you're honoring, but you promise to protect a king, part of a culture that is so deep and rich in you, part of that is this flower, and he's just burning it. And then it's like, look, we stay out of the world, but now this guy wants to inject us into it, not only inject us into it, but literally give weapons to people on streets of cities to declare war against people. And some of these people aren't really depressed because are oppressed, because not all of that's true. That's the nuance of it that's a problem, which is why it's all bullshit. Yep, but here it is doing that, and they're just gonna go with it because of the waterfall fight. That doesn't bother you at all as a plot device, it bothers the hell out of me, man. And Zimba's gotta come back and save them later. It's I just wish there was a better reason he had a grasp on Wakanda. I so because if that was all you had to do, shit. You're telling me out of all the generations of people that run this place, someone tried to figure that out. Now one bad of the bad family came out and did that. He's the only bad version of the families, this guy. Maybe he is. I can I can even go with that. But it just really feels like, how'd you do this for so long, man? Like it doesn't make any how'd the society thrive if you're just hoping to God that they're telling you the truth when they're doing this stuff right in front of you. The minute he stabbed that guy in that fight should have been a red light. They should have all been looking at each other, which they almost kind of did, and they're like, this isn't normal. Like, family or not, he's gotta follow the rules. And part of the rules isn't killing our elders that lead us in this stuff, because that's the guy that he killed later would be telling people we need to dethrone him. I get why he killed him, but why they don't realize that's a problem bothers me. Bothers me a lot because it's like, nah, even kingdoms know that when you're doing it wrong, you're not back in that dime. This is the dumbest kingdom that's ever existed, if that's the case. And if that's the case, what are we showing Wakanda? Like, what are we doing here, man? Like, this is this story. I'm just I'm trying to follow you. This fell off the rails for me with that. And it and it just it's a plot hole that I cannot oversee. And I'm trying my best to. And and I'm hoping it's just taste. If I if when I watch this movie, if this was if it wasn't a whole kingdom we're talking about, and it was just an inside struggle and it wasn't so public, it'd be it'd be a way easier movie to buy. But this is it's such a public thing he does there. It's such a big thing that happens. I just don't see the sure, we can get away with the waterfall thing and they don't know what to do. But how do you not, in the writing of this, in the character development of these people, even Shuri, her character development in general, why wouldn't someone be like, listen, we gotta do something about this from the inside?

SPEAKER_06 4:22:18

This guy can't do this. This is not right.

SPEAKER_04 4:22:22

They're so dependent on that specific ritual that kinda still doesn't make sense. Really? You know, the depowering there's a lot of that whole thing.

SPEAKER_02 4:22:33

See, I get the ritual.

SPEAKER_04 4:22:35

I get the ritual too. I just think it's it's really it's just unsustainable for what they want us to think is such a sustain sustainable nation. You know?

SPEAKER_06 4:22:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:22:47

It's how do I I'm trying in my head to figure out a way where I could defend it, but it's hard, it really is hard because I do agree with what you're saying, and why I wasn't so put off by it is I it's hard it is hard to notice it.

SPEAKER_04 4:23:08

What this movie does real well in your defense to help you out here. Maybe this will help you. Because I want you to talk me off the ledge a little. But I'm really on it. The problem is, is this movie does a great job at letting you not think about that bigger picture because it does do is a cool scene, right? It's a fun scene to watch. The acting's top-dotch. All these guys are doing a good job. We like, we want to see what happens, we care about this stuff. It's Lion King again. We're loving it. It's cool, he falls off the cliff. We want to see him regain the strength and come back and do his thing. It's a little boring and predictable, but we know it's coming and we want to see it. And you don't really ever have it cross your mind that there's thousands to millions of other people that live there. Because they don't really show you what's going on. But then when you actually start thinking about it, they're all just cool with this because. When they know. Look how they act. They know that this guy just took them and didn't earn it. The right way. Yeah. And you're telling me because of them being so strict on that tradition, they're not gonna dethrone him.

SPEAKER_02 4:24:12

Or I wonder if it's out of fear because you could just kill them.

SPEAKER_04 4:24:16

He's not killing all of them. He's a badass. He's not that bad. You saw them girls fight.

SPEAKER_06 4:24:22

He's gonna kill all of them? Come on. Them girls kill Thanos. You put him in a room with him. I think he well, maybe. Without the stones.

SPEAKER_02 4:24:34

Yeah, even without the stones, I don't know about that.

SPEAKER_04 4:24:36

Well. Okay, maybe I went too far. But they're killing him. I mean because he's just Black Panther strength. That's all he is. He's now just a guy. He's basically Steve Rogers. He's basically Captain America's strength. Basically. And without the suit, he's just a guy that's got super strength and can jump high. He's got to have the suit. Even with the suit, they're kicking his ass.

SPEAKER_02 4:24:58

Because even without the Black Panther power, he was pretty formidable.

SPEAKER_04 4:25:02

Not to these girls, man. You saw what they can do. And even it's not just them either. It's got a whole army outside of people. Like these, yeah, I get you. Yeah. Put up a fight. He's scary if you're alone with him in a room, but you're not alone. You have a whole kingdom next to you that is going to be like, you're burning our flowers? That's our thing. I got a tattoo of it. What the f what am I supposed to do now? You know, it's like seriously, it's like there's like a it's their thing. That's it. To them, that's just a sacred, more sacred than the king, really. It's their way of life.

SPEAKER_06 4:25:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 4:25:33

And they're just like, oh, he won the waterfall fight, though. Remember the thing up there, Lion King? He did that. Yeah, it's a it's a problem, man. Like it's just it's a problem. I see that. I can't. I just wish it wasn't. I wish it wasn't. But it's like, scary's one thing, but if he's scary, how the hell'd they make it through Namorn, man? You know what I mean? Like you're telling them, like, if he's scary, then they should have never shown up at the end of the end game because that guy's scary. You know what I'm saying? Like, there's like there's a there's a point where it's like, at what point do you not stand up for your nation? Like, it's to me, they are technology and smart enough to hide from the world, they're smart enough to know that you have to protect what you've got.

SPEAKER_02 4:26:15

You guys better go in the comment section right now and see if you can respond a little bit. And well, make it polite, but try to make a point to to see.

SPEAKER_04 4:26:26

Because I am struggling to see your prey because it's this movie. No, but that is easy to not think about it though.

SPEAKER_02 4:26:34

It is. That was very easy to not think about because I was just captured enough by the storytelling that they were doing that that is a I maybe it's because I don't think they're as smart as they're trying to make them out to be. Obviously, with you know, you know, maybe there is a more of a meta explanation for that. Let me see.

SPEAKER_03 4:27:08

There is something I'm lawyering this.

SPEAKER_04 4:27:16

I think I'm just saying, no matter what president you are, you get a president that decides, hey, let's just get rid of the American flag and make a new one. We're gonna be like, no. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, no, not gonna happen. You know, and like they'll burn his house down before they let him do it. You know what I'm saying? Like, it's not gonna happen.

SPEAKER_02 4:27:39

I don't know, I just I feel like it's I'm sorry guys, I'm looking through my notes because part of me is thinking, okay, what can I say? I can understand the absence of the other tribes because they go out and they just do their own thing and they don't want to deal with it. This is a good example. No, no, I can't say it that way. I'm tiptoeing around because I'm thinking, how the heck do I say this? The the meta part that that was coming to my brain is that he no, it doesn't make any sense.

SPEAKER_04 4:28:15

You see, the MCU has done a real good job at explaining why something the MCU's done well is the point that we're at here. Yeah. There's some other times later that they've kind of failed, which I'll point them out too. But they've done a good job at explaining when and why things are happening. So when you watch Civil War, you're like, well, where's Hulk and where's Thor? Well, there's something else going on, right? Or when you're watching leaving out the TV shows, because Spider-Man should have been there for Daredevil in the show. Where the hell? I mean, come on, we got a whole episode of The Punisher where a whole street is on fire and people shooting everywhere, and Spider-Man's just like, yeah, I'm not gonna go over there. Anyways, right? But we'll forget the shows. They've done real well at explaining why something can't be done by a certain group. You know what I'm saying? Like, why is this a secret? Or is this happening behind the scenes? Or this event is happening so fast that this they don't have a chance to do anything, anyways. Good example is Infinity War, right? There's things that happen in the mean Infinity War. Yeah, it's quick. Once Strange comes to take toning, from that until the end of the movie, it's like what, a day and a half? Not even like an afternoon. I don't think it goes into another day before they do the stamp. Like it's it's a whole it's fast, right? This is literally a kingdom ignoring this situation. And I think that that's where that's why it's tough for me, because if that's the case, this Wakanda place kind of sucks. And Wakanda to me, I always thought was supposed to be this the advanced part of it, you know. And like, I don't know. I don't I don't want to sit back and think that they over the the tradition that they're hardcore about they the what parts of it are you ignoring and what parts are you not gonna ignore? I've yeah, I know, and like and that that to mean is lazy. I it's lazy writing.

SPEAKER_02 4:30:08

I'm gonna give you that credit there that I feel like what they've what they've established in this movie of what Wakanda is, is this isolated child that does not know how to protect itself, even because they've been so isolated from the world that if an outsider comes in, this is how easy they could take them over because they don't have rules in place. They're so bounded by tradition and their culture that they don't see that there are some and they have they're technologically advanced because they have nothing to do in this isolated place except play with vibranium that they're blessed with to make some of these crazy cool things, but fight each other to become warriors, pretty much. Yes, but e even then, like that it's all within their own tribe of them who's gonna become king. It's it's that's one reason why they never opened up to the world. And honestly, thank God they never opened up to the world earlier. Because judging by this and how you just explained this really big plot hole that I I can't figure out a way to negate, this nation would have been gone a long time ago.

SPEAKER_04 4:31:16

Because don't you think it's if they opened up to the world? Let's say their rule is maybe they've all accepted that they need to say this in the movie, though. This problem, I'm making an excuse for them, and it's not I can't, I don't want that. But the excuse you could make is that the rule is it has to be within the bloodline, good or bad, no matter what, that's the rule. Then I guess, oh wow, then you are stuck with this jerk because it just is, right? That they can that like lions, they can literally kill each other until the best one's on top, and that best one rules, whether it's good or bad, that's you don't have a choice. I guess, right?

SPEAKER_06 4:31:57

Yeah. But what a wild, barbaric way to run a place that's supposed to be progressively socially, you know, better.

SPEAKER_04 4:32:10

Yeah, I d I don't and it and no one sat back to think of a contingency plan when this happens. They're all just like dumbfounded, you know, and it's like I just really feel like it's a it's I feel like it's lazy writing. I feel like it's they're relying on the deep message of this story and the push for the the social commentary of it, and you're just gonna forget all these mistakes because it's easy to forget it, because you got good acting around it, you got good action around it. Um It was during these boring moments, is when I was kind of like thinking about it. And that's the problem for someone like me. This stuff took too long. And it's not as fun as the Lion King. They're not dancing on a log and eating bugs and stuff. You know, they're just sitting here whining about it for seven days. You know what I mean? And it's like, okay, I know where I know what know what's gonna happen. You're gonna go back and you're gonna beat your beat about and you're gonna win.

SPEAKER_06 4:33:03

You know?

SPEAKER_04 4:33:04

It it really you have a whole kingdom that's not ready to stand behind you, just so you know. You're going back for a kingdom that just allowed this to happen to you, by the way. So just think about that while you're sitting there with Umbaku and fixing your wound. Yeah, I don't know. It's it's like what the he should go back and go, you guys should be ashamed of yourselves. I had to come back and do this. What the hell's wrong with you? You guys look what he did. You let him do that? What are you doing? He should have torn the crap out of everybody as well. You'd be like, ah, I was like, what the hell? If I was dad, I'd express you kick my ass. You know what I mean? Like, stand up for your country, man. Like, it's I don't know. Anyways, I think we need to move past it, or I'll complain about it all night. But that is a big until you it is you got more to talk about whether we will. The only other big thing about this is Killmonger himself that bugs me. And I feel like Killmonger's philosophy is stronger than his actual plan. I mean, they spend a lot of time in this movie making him very understandable and selling this idea that he's abandoned and that Wakanda is ignoring the sufferings, and that there's oppressed people out there that need their help and they they have the responsibility to do so. They shove that down your throat, but his ultimate goal is to what? I'm gonna set weapons out so there can be just carnage everywhere. So I'm gonna, you know, my way of seeing justice being done is creating more suffering. It's like, oh, okay, cool. I mean, it's just kind of a weird, I don't know. You had this really neat progressive idea that just went super violent. Which I will take, I will say this it's as equally eye-rolling as it is a good commentary to why his ideological ideology sucks. Because you are right. That is something you have got me thinking about. His way of thinking is not the right way of thinking, even though they glorify it in this movie at the end. But it shows that it ultimately violence will be violence, so he's gonna do something that is not right to fix something that is too nuanced for him to understand based off of a personal situation that he should handle that way. And so, and that's that's a flaw in the character, which is okay. Because he's the villain, it is a little eye-rolly, though, it's a little on the nose, and I think that that's I'm like, okay, but it's fine, it just means he's not the best villain, and she's got way worse villains in him, you know what I mean? And it just for me doesn't put him on the top pedestal like everyone's got him. He doesn't put him in the bottom either, though. He's great.

SPEAKER_02 4:35:31

Yeah, well, uh when it comes to the pedestal thing, yes, that I think people put him on a pedestal because either they agree with his philosophy and his way of thinking, but the whole point of this film, everyone, is he dies and he is the villain. Like, I like a good villain, don't get me wrong, hella.

SPEAKER_04 4:35:52

But this guy, it the only nobody trusts bitch ass there. Trader ass. Nobody trusts him. Like, I'm sorry. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Anyways, he's got a lot of swagger.

SPEAKER_02 4:36:07

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 4:36:08

Like, he's a tough S O B.

SPEAKER_02 4:36:10

Well, um, yeah. And I I like him. Michael B. Jordan knows how to carry it too. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 4:36:14

Yeah. I I don't think he's quite proven for me yet as an actor. I think he's proven to everybody he can act that he does a real good job in creating, does great in the I know he's good in Sinners as diverse as Sinners is. Um, I personally still have a hard time believing him. He's just he's just a certain way about him that makes me go, oh, I need to see, I don't know, I need to see something for me personally. But that's that's a very personal touch. It's not, you know, it's what we think how good some actors are, it's hard to tell. And he shows up with this thing.

unknown 4:36:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 4:36:46

You gotta realize, oh, that's a little cheesy.

SPEAKER_02 4:36:48

Oh okay, guys. So uh let's let's wrap up act too so we could get to this final act. Um did the pacing hold up for you in act two?

SPEAKER_04 4:36:57

No. I feel like the whole getting better and the whole being away thing made me gave me a lot of time to not care about those moments to find this plot hole that I found. So yeah, I think the pacing, I really wish uh it kept some sort of I don't know, it lost a gallop and then it gets it back later, but it lost it somewhere in there. So I didn't care for the pacing of that middle part so much.

SPEAKER_02 4:37:22

I was okay with it because they're trying to give some story exposition for it. But yeah, you're right, they do have a big home. There is a few slow moments that I was kind of oof. Um best character moment for you in act two. So what I'm gonna say about this, my favorite character moment in act two is when T'Challa learns what his father did, and he instantly has this gut punch of this is not what I thought my father was like. This is a sin that he did that I now have to pay the price for. And that is one thing that for some reason Marvel likes to have horrible dads in the whole MCU. At least the the silver lining for Tony Stark's dad, as we find out later on, he really did love him. He was just a prick. But suck at it, though. But yes, yeah, I mean he wasn't good at showing love. He was the basis of them from Odin to Chaka, these dads are horrible.

SPEAKER_06 4:38:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:38:29

I am so thankful that Cassie Lang's mother was horrible. So you have some diversity of horribleness in the parent department. But you know his parents in the FC. It's there's there's freaking ego.

SPEAKER_04 4:38:43

Come on. Yes, yes, all ego parents suck.

SPEAKER_03 4:38:46

Like, what is wrong with these parents? Yeah, you know, I'm watching this movie, and my first thought when I X-Men's parents are there because they hate them. Literally, look at Bobby's parents.

SPEAKER_02 4:38:59

Yeah, have you ever tried not being a muon? Yeah. Have you ever just wanted to just be nice for a change? Just be like, I love you, and that's it. Anyways, that's all these freaking people need. That's all Meg all Magneto ever need was someone to say I love you and hug them.

SPEAKER_06 4:39:14

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:39:15

But apocalypse. All you needed was a love. We found that in '97.

SPEAKER_04 4:39:20

If Thanos was raised by the right people, yes, you'd have been just a big purple nice guy.

SPEAKER_03 4:39:26

You'd be Barney. You'd be Barney from Titan. Barney Barney. Um my God.

SPEAKER_04 4:39:36

The parents suck at you.

SPEAKER_03 4:39:38

They do. I forgot what I was about to say, but yeah, that's this just. I don't know what's up with these parents.

SPEAKER_04 4:39:46

Kind of starts to feel recycled, right?

SPEAKER_02 4:39:48

Okay. That what I was gonna say, that I lost my train of thought. I starred this movie, and my literal thought in my head was, oh, it's so good to finally have a nice parent for a change. And then I forgot that I got to that the third act. And then when it gets to that flashback scene, he says, We shall never speak of this ever again. And then you realize, oh, you abandoned the child there. All you had to do was pick up the child and say, Your father just died, you're coming back home with me. And you're done. There's no killmonger.

SPEAKER_04 4:40:20

This whole movie could have been avoided if he just brought his nephew home. That's all. That's all.

SPEAKER_06 4:40:27

Like, oh my god. Why didn't he bring it home? What's the exact word I put for Tchichaka? Where are you? I'm looking in my notes, guys. Alright.

SPEAKER_02 4:40:45

What is up with these dickhead dads? That's what I put in there. I'm glad Ant-Man had a dickhead dickhead mom, just a justified dick ac dickheadery throughout all of these. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 4:40:59

All the good parents die.

SPEAKER_03 4:41:00

That's all they need to do.

SPEAKER_04 4:41:01

All the good parents die. Aunt May, dead. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 4:41:06

Peter's mom, dead. Star Lord, I mean, yeah, yeah, Aunt May, dead. Kill the good ones, keep the bad ones. I'm kind of nervous to find out who Uncle Ben ever was because if I find out he's a dickhead dad, I'd be like, I'm glad he was dead the whole time. Like, what the heck? Right? Like, I have no idea.

SPEAKER_04 4:41:27

Maybe Peter didn't know, need to know.

SPEAKER_03 4:41:30

Uh exactly. Like, they were like, we're gonna forget this one.

SPEAKER_02 4:41:34

It's it's kind of so I so I I put that as my favorite moment because it's T'Challa, one of the things that he does here that's different than what Thor Thor did not do this in Ragnarok, and he should have done this in Ragnarok, especially during Thor's vision thing, is he should have said, Dad, what the what the H E double hockey stick are you did you do? At least T'Challa confronts his dad and says, I'll never be like you, I'm not gonna be like you. What did you do? Thor never says that to Odin.

SPEAKER_04 4:42:08

Well, because he's not really talking to Odin.

SPEAKER_03 4:42:10

I know he's talking to the vision, but all he's saying is, help me defeat her. Instead, he should have said, What the hell did you do to my sister?

SPEAKER_02 4:42:19

So, anyways, that's not just on that Thor movie. We already went through that retrospect, but it's like I appreciate normal reacts. T'chala has what any normal one of us would have been like, Really? Really, yeah, really?

SPEAKER_04 4:42:33

It's like, why didn't you just I just I want him to tell us why he didn't bring him home.

SPEAKER_02 4:42:37

To me, is further proof that I feel T'Challa is one of those natural-born leaders that he was just he he is supposed to be. That's one of the things I got throughout this this whole movie is that every decision that he's making, he he's making right decisions as it goes along. And I feel like that that's just a natural part of him. He obviously didn't get that from his dad, it must have been his mother.

SPEAKER_04 4:42:59

I would agree with the decision making. I just don't agree with where they put his character during a lot of it. That's all you know what I'm saying. Like, yeah, but I do agree with I do by the by the this point, I am all about yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:43:11

All right, so let's score act two so we can get on to act three, because I I feel like we're dilly-daling around some of the craziness that's going on here.

SPEAKER_04 4:43:19

Oh yeah, easy for me, I give act two a four.

SPEAKER_06 4:43:25

Hmm.

SPEAKER_02 4:43:28

So originally I had written down an eight.

SPEAKER_06 4:43:32

Stick with it.

SPEAKER_02 4:43:33

But there is that huge plot hole that if someone could explain it, I will be happy to uh amend this back to an eight, but I will have to go down at least a point and a half to give that validity because that is true. That there is no one else other than Nakia that was saying there's a problem here. Even the Dora Malange, I get it, they're loyal to the throne, but at the same time, your throne was just overtaken.

SPEAKER_04 4:44:01

Like I said, which makes sense, but by the time he starts burning that stuff, someone's doing something.

SPEAKER_02 4:44:06

Uh yes, there has to be a contingency plan. Even our own government has a contingency plan if our president gets out of control where it's definitely uncon like deeply unconstitutional and unprofound, you know, so radical that we have to initiate parts of our constitutional constitution to say you are no longer in power. They don't have a checks and balances. They they got nothing.

SPEAKER_04 4:44:34

They literally have a fight in a waterfall, is how they determine it. Which makes for a cool scene and really neat kind of backstory.

SPEAKER_02 4:44:41

Who makes the laws?

SPEAKER_04 4:44:43

No condition the guy he stabbed probably doesn't.

SPEAKER_02 4:44:45

Who's the judge? See, that's why all these he stabbed probably. Stabbed their Supreme Court justice.

SPEAKER_04 4:44:53

Well, if they can't tell us, what are we supposed to say?

SPEAKER_03 4:44:56

It's a little stupid.

SPEAKER_02 4:44:59

Exactly. They they they have this council of tribes around them. They're supposed to be part of this guiding force, but they're all complicit in this guy overthrowing their government.

SPEAKER_06 4:45:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 4:45:10

And they're just gonna be able to claim they're how they're gonna know. Like, what are you talking about?

SPEAKER_02 4:45:19

Like, yeah, so I'm I'm downgrading my thing to uh a 6.5 out of 10 for this act. I feel like that's still generous for that over overwhelmingly huge plot hole now that I'm realizing. Yikes. Okay, act three. Um, I'll read act three because it's my turn. So some of this we've already talked about, so it's yeah, so it'll be easy to breeze right through. Yeah. Tajala rest is rescued by the Jabari tribe and Mbaku. He regains his power of the Black Panther thanks to his mother and sister. Um, then returns to Wakanda to challenge Killmonger in the final battle. T'achala is victorious and reclaims the throne. In the resolution, he abandons Wakanda's isolationism and sets up the country's first international outreach center in Oakland, California. So, did the ending land for you? Now the ending is that that center opening up, the Wakanda Research Center. Right. I think that's the very end before you get to the post. Yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 4:46:29

Yeah. Um, the ending does not land for me. Okay. This is where I feel like they glorify this situation we have with our social commentary. Oh, okay. Not only his little speech before he dies, he says some things that are very deliberately like in our face about history that make me go, it wasn't that simple.

SPEAKER_02 4:46:49

But then he dies, so all is forgiven.

SPEAKER_04 4:46:55

I get that there is a little bit of a, yeah, you were unfairly, you know, abandoned and all that stuff. But it is almost like a they're giving a little uh they're making a very kind of like giving a little validity to his decisions to be a murderer and literally give weapons to groups of people that may not be truly oppressed the way he's claiming that they are, and we're just gonna be that's okay. It's to me that's no different than you know, if there's something going on in your city and it's something you don't like happening, then burn it down. I don't think we're not going to do anything about it.

SPEAKER_02 4:47:37

I don't see any of that.

SPEAKER_04 4:47:39

I a hundred percent see it.

SPEAKER_02 4:47:41

I see this as them getting rid of their isolationism by I'm cool with all that, but that's a post-credit scene.

SPEAKER_04 4:47:48

That's not the end of this movie.

SPEAKER_02 4:47:49

No, no, I'm yeah, yeah, no, I'm not talking about the post-credit scene. That yeah, that that's the publicly decl declaring they're opening it up, but they already did the end of this movie, start those research centers.

SPEAKER_04 4:48:00

I'm all set. I am cool with them opening to the public. This idea of doing it there mixed with his speech there, it's just you just glorified this guy in a in the we now are oh, don't you feel bad for that guy? No, man. But they want you to. It's like, see, even the bad guys that are doing real bad things. We it's okay. Because they had a good reason to feel that way. And they really felt that that's the it's a hundred percent what it felt.

SPEAKER_02 4:48:29

I I see him them setting up that Wakana Research Center there so we don't get more Killmongers. Might have to be Oakland. Because that's where he's from. Yeah. It's it's where his uh his dad died. It's where Killmonger started his origin down a path of this troublesome, susceptible to a culture that doesn't isn't good.

SPEAKER_04 4:48:54

They failed to I think they failed for me personally, they failed to get the message across that the way he's thinking and the things that he did to get to where he is was is unacceptable. It's not the right way to do it. By making this little cliche ending of boo-hoo, kill a monger, we feel bad. Oh, look, they're even doing the Oakland thing. Oh, that's so sweet. Because you know he just was an abandoned little boy, he's a product of his environment from the people who are oppressed. And it's like, okay, I'm sorry, it's just not that simple. And I don't like that they did that. It's no different than some certain people in our society that have gotten hurt by other people, and that person that got hurt was also a real bad person, but they ignore the bad part of it just to use that person to push an idea. You understand what you say? I agree with that last part you're saying a lot of it to get people riled up, but that happens a lot, and I'm not all the time, and there's many times I agree with the one side or the other, but I will tell you this movie makes you feel like as long as he did these things for those reasons, sure he can't win. Cool, he doesn't win because his ideologies uh his ideals suck and they're the wrong way to go about it, but there is a martyrdom to it, and that to me is a problem. I don't like that.

SPEAKER_02 4:50:14

See, I don't see that.

SPEAKER_05 4:50:15

Oh, yeah, I feel it.

SPEAKER_02 4:50:16

I I only see them going back to that specific spot because to because his dad died there, not because they're glorifying him. They didn't make a statue in his name, they're what you're name it after him.

SPEAKER_04 4:50:27

It might be true. The problem is it's not clear, and it feels to me like it's him offering that olive branch of, oh, well, at least, you know, I'm gonna justify your bullshit somewhat. Because it's I don't know, it's it's but it's not at the same time. It's just that's how it just comes off that way to me. Just and it really bugs me. So I'm gonna get that out of the way because I don't want that to be part of my biggest reasons. Okay. That is a small reason to me. I do feel like you didn't you didn't slam home enough the idea that this guy was wrong, and you needed to be daring at the end and say the truth at the end, which is he's wrong. You know, he's wrong. You can't use past things to do horrible things in the future and justify it. You can't beat evil with evil. And yeah, he doesn't win. I get it, but it does kind of feel kind of bittersweet, and I really think that that's a drop of the ball. And I think that's why he had people outside of movie theaters not letting other people in. Because I think that's why he got such a love for this character, because even though he was flawed, and even though he's lost, and even though they do believe in the unity part of it that Black Panther believes in and all that stuff, they still think he's cool because he took it to the end. And I've heard stuff like that, and I'm like, took what to the end? Something that he is wrong about, right? And it, but that they're not seeing it, and that's where the whole society's made me kind of hate this movie, because it's like, what are you watching? Like you guys realize, but Kubler did this on purpose because he wants you to feel that way. And I'm calling him out on it because he does it in his other movies too. Your creed isn't just about boxing, there's a racial thing there too. And sinners, like I told you, is all about this whole idea of appropriate appropriation, which don't get me wrong, I think there's some stuff in there to be said about it, but then I also think you kind of went a little far with a few things that make me go, that's a little you're perpetuating a thing that has a lot more nuance than what you're willing to express. And these and you're using our entertainment to do it in metaphors by that way, too. So it's like, uh, so white people are vampires now, you know. It's like you know, all of them, yeah, every white person will be, you know what I mean? Like, oh, okay, you know, and and it just makes you kind of it just makes me feel left out, which they can all argue that, but we did for a long time. I understand. I don't live in the past, so man, like I am, I love our country for what it is today, and we don't need to be that way. And I I actually like sinners if it wasn't so kind of ballbring, you know. But I want to get away from that because I'm gonna get y'all gonna I know this is gonna be the one video that we're gonna get real famous someday. And we're gonna be like, wait a minute, did you see their Black Panther thing? That one guy. And I don't want you to think that, guys, because I am all for if you want to make a movie that is centralized on a certain culture, I think you deserve it. I like that they did Shane Chi, I like they did this. I I hope they make more of these. I just I'm actually so for it that I'm more mad that you didn't get a young black actor to just replace T'Challa and you just completely got rid of the character. I agree. I think Chadwick would have rather seen another young black actor out there have a chance to play this awesome character. I agree. So to me, it's almost like a disservice to how much I'm on your side. I just don't need you to put it in this movie about things that we need to have a more important, nuanced conversation about. And this movie makes me feel like I can't do that. With that said, my only other problems with this movie at the end of this whole thing, the ending does not work for me because I do feel that heaviness. The climax works for me and doesn't at the same time. The climax feels earned, but the emotion and the stakes and this between them feels earned. But this movie becomes our quick CGI fest. And this is the first time in a while I saw some CGI. I was like, I can get over CGI not looking the best, but this movie, what there's a lot of CGI in this last fight, and I'm not saying there's not a lot of CGI in the MCU movies because there's a ton. Um I just don't know why Civil War look so much better than that rhino running through the field, you know, and that whole train sequence stuff. Man oh man.

SPEAKER_06 4:54:49

It just the CGI felt like I was watching a cartoon is too much.

SPEAKER_04 4:54:58

I needed to be more I had the same problem with Man Quantumania.

SPEAKER_06 4:55:03

Oh the same problem.

SPEAKER_04 4:55:05

So it's not just this movie. I hope I want to make sure to make that clear. It's not just this movie. There's a see, at least in Thor Ragnarok, right? When he jumps down on the Rainbow Bridge, he's fighting them. The surrounding is all CGI, but there's people there he's fighting, right? There's a whole segment where they're fighting in this train thing where until they take their masks off, which then now they're just like floating heads in a cartoon. It really is like apparent that, oh, this is CGI, a lot of it, like hardcore. And that rhino looked all looked awful. Like I'm just oh, ew. They need to go back in the oven. I need to add a little more detail to that, you know what I'm saying? Like a little more, you know what I mean? Like to all the colorful and beautiful things they do in this movie that do excellent CGI, that last part they kind of skint the money on. They should have put more money in that last part because that last part was a way bigger deal. But that last part felt like I turned in it turned into a cartoon for like a half an hour.

SPEAKER_02 4:56:03

It it was very heavy with the CGI for when the two Panthers are fighting each other. I I agree. I agree to that. Um I I feel like Quantum Mania definitely gave it a run for its money and saying that that was the worst CGI I've seen. I I have to agree more than this CGI. Yes, yeah. So I do see your faults with the your your point of view, I should say, with the CGI having faults in here. But um I was able to overlook it because it wasn't to me, it wasn't as much. There are some parts like when the rhino bust through the uh jet that that is 100% pure CGI. They didn't even this they didn't even think, oh, let's just blow something up and add that into it to make it look a little more real-ish. Um, so I I'll give you points for that there.

SPEAKER_04 4:56:58

And you know, the thing is though, is we've seen them use CGI way better.

SPEAKER_02 4:57:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 4:57:02

So it's not it's not so much that it has to be practical for you to like it. It's just as if you're gonna have that heavy of a CGI moment, that should be where the majority of the money for your CGI goes, then.

SPEAKER_06 4:57:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 4:57:14

Because that's the selling point. When you look at that airport scene in Civil War, there's it's almost flawless. Like everything's perfect, but they knew that that had to be, they had to be that good, right? I mean, even Endgame, like it's like, whoa. Like I'll even say Guardians of Galaxy CGI is better, and that's a lot of CGI in that. And that just kind of seemed, you know, flat. They put a lot of CGI and stuff into these realms that they go to, and they look awesome and cool, but it just felt like the fighting. And and to be honest with you, the choreography of even the fight alone is still not as uh it's it wasn't as good as the the fight in the beginning. Like I I really was kind of like, oh man, I was a little let down, you know, about that. But I do think the climax was earned though. So give it that.

SPEAKER_06 4:57:59

Well, I put for me it it was earned.

SPEAKER_02 4:58:02

Um the let's see, the best moment I'll give for Act Three for myself was the the conversation between T'Challa and Umbaku. Um, I feel like that was really showcasing that Chachala is not like past leaders where he actually wants to mend fences. And he's already at that point just went through his realization with the confrontation with his father. And I feel like that was that was nice to see because as we know in Wakando Forever and and now into doomsday, Mbaku does play a bigger role, and I think that he was able to do something that past kings for generations never was able to do, and get that tribe to become more part of uh part of it. And it's only because of T'Challa. And he did that for the better of the nation, right? Yes. Yep, that's just another proof that he was meant to be king.

SPEAKER_04 4:58:58

Right. And the fact that he was able to make that change for the better of a nation, everybody understood it, got it. Yeah. Kind of like how they should have just stood up and killed killed Maggie, right?

SPEAKER_02 4:59:07

I yep. Yeah. I agree, but I don't think they were able to see what we're seeing. No, I get it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 4:59:11

That you see where I'm coming from with that when I do say that, though. It's not to rub it in or make it, but it is, it does make you even feel more so. Like, really? You know, it's like we can do this, but we can't do that.

SPEAKER_02 4:59:21

So I'm I'm gonna start off with the score then for for act three.

SPEAKER_04 4:59:24

I yeah, my best moment in this, I kind of like it. Oh, sorry, yes. Just to throw it out there quick. Yep. But my best moment is I honestly, it's in kind of the fighting. I think Suri, when she's got those things on her hands fighting him, I just was like ruined for her the whole time. She's got you know what I mean. Like she's probably my favorite character in the movie. You know what I mean? Like, but yeah, that moment, that that moment with Dumbaku, I have later in our thing. Like I like a lot, too.

SPEAKER_02 4:59:49

Yes, yes. All right. I'm but I'm gonna my score I know it's gonna be higher than yours for act three, but I gave it a nine out of ten.

SPEAKER_05 4:59:57

Yeah, I give it a four.

SPEAKER_02 4:59:58

Okay. Because I I just saw that ending landing different for me than than it did for you.

SPEAKER_04 5:00:05

But that that's more of my four though comes from I really is a taste thing. And the CGI is too heavy for my taste, unfortunately. It did affect my watch. I wish it didn't, but it I wasn't able to overlook. I was like, ooh, ooh. And it's like darn. The seriousness left. Oh no. You know what I mean? I felt bad. I even tried to watch it twice, and it felt worse the second time. So boy. I just judged it off the first one just to be safe. So I want to be fair too. All right, why don't you read the post-credit scenes? Okay, so we got a mid-credit scene revealing Wakanda to the world. T'Challa travels to Vienna, Austria, to address the United Nations. He formally announces that Wakanda will end its historical isolation and share its knowledge and resources with the rest of the world. And then there's a post-credit scene, the White Wolf Returns. Is he called the White Wolf in this too? Yeah. It's funny because Bucky's just like frozen somewhere during all this. Or is he out in the field? No, he's gotta be frozen. Yeah, that that's you could have used Bucky, man. We're gonna get to that. In remote Wakanda Village, local children refer to a recovering Bucky Barnes, the winter soldier, as the White Wolf. Bucky, now freed of his hydra brainwashing, steps out of a hut and thanks to Charlotte's sister, Shuri, for helping him recover.

SPEAKER_06 5:01:34

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 5:01:35

So the purpose of these basically is that you know, it sets up obviously, it's gonna be setting up, you know, Bucky's back, you know, and he might be safe Bucky, which is a big deal, because if he's not safe Bucky, we got a problem. And I forgot that they would were able to fix his head, which I'm glad because he's safe Bucky. So now he can be Captain America, right? Um and then we got also Titala opening up to World Jake because that opens up a lot in the MCU about everybody knowing about Wakanda and holy lol moly, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 5:02:07

Like so. Okay. I have mixed feelings about both of these post-credit scenes personally. Let's start off with the first one, the mid-credit scene. Yes, revealing Wakanda to the world. The there is a small amount of payoff in Wakanda Forever for it. Sorry, I thought something, thought there was a bug on my leg. Um still.

SPEAKER_03 5:02:35

I was like, oh my god, I'm gonna be killed.

SPEAKER_04 5:02:40

It's it.

SPEAKER_03 5:02:41

I'm like, oh, all right, Wakanda Forever. So um, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:02:49

So I'm sorry, guys. Woo! All right, so um, there's a small amount of payoff for this first part, not in the payoff I wish we had in Wakanda Forever, and that's gonna get to my gripe when we get to Wakanda Forever when we get there. Gotcha. Um, so initially, if I had to score just that mid-credit scene, I would probably give that maybe a four out of ten.

SPEAKER_04 5:03:14

I was gonna say five.

SPEAKER_02 5:03:15

Okay. That that would make a little sense. Yes, yes. All right, the post-credit scene, the white wolf returns, Bucky. This, I like the scene that's showing that Bucky's still alive, and doesn't it make sense? He he was after he was out there and he stayed there after Civil War, he was put under ice, and it was supposed to tease Wakanda's coming, all that stuff. The problem is he is not frozen, which means this whole time you had the frickin' winter soldier that T'Challa could have called upon to help him.

SPEAKER_04 5:03:54

Maybe he was frozen during this time, though. We just don't know. But that's the thing, we just don't know, right, when he's on thought. This could be way uh this post-grad scene could be like two years later. But what we see That's the only argument I'd have is we just don't know, right?

SPEAKER_02 5:04:13

You know that you know, that part I I'll give you that because there I don't remember anything saying in Infinity War this is like a certain timestamp, and then this movie, this is a certain timestamp, because from my understanding, this movie takes place immediately after Civil War.

SPEAKER_05 5:04:30

Right.

SPEAKER_02 5:04:30

And pretty close to it, right? A lot of things from Civil War to Infinity War are going on, but they all could have been happening at the same time. I I really we really don't know. That I'd love to look up some Marvel nerd genius out there on the YouTubes that maybe has a timeline down that says when these things are happening because that will make me more sense.

SPEAKER_04 5:04:51

He hasn't been getting too long because he's still getting his feet about it. Yes, which means Bucky's and if it's that's the case, then it is pretty close to civil war. Yeah, which means Bucky's probably still on ice during this movie.

SPEAKER_02 5:05:02

Yeah, and this this post-crist scene literally just takes place right before they bring him in and they're they're welcoming the Avengers.

SPEAKER_04 5:05:09

So thinking okay.

SPEAKER_02 5:05:10

I'll I'll give it that for that part, because otherwise I would have given that much lower score. So um, I think overall I would rate both of these together like maybe a uh seven out of ten. I definitely give that second one at least a seven just because I love Bucky. Yeah. Um, but yeah, I think that's fair for both of them. So let's do that. Yep. All right, seven out of ten. There it is. All right, guys, our deep dives. Now we're gonna get into the meat, the juice, the everything about this this movie. Um, best performances.

SPEAKER_04 5:05:42

Chadwood Bozeman.

SPEAKER_02 5:05:43

I got the same thing, Chadwood Bozeman. Yep.

SPEAKER_04 5:05:46

Fantastic.

SPEAKER_02 5:05:47

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 5:05:48

I don't know what else to say. I mean, there's I wish he had I wish his story wasn't the Lion King, but what it was though, in the stuff he did, I think he did a fantastic job with. It he's definitely a great Black Panther. Um, yeah, I love what he did. I think it's awesome. It's too bad he can't do it again. Yeah. I wish we could have gotten more. But I agree. I say you give us some damn interest, and we just move on. And that's I wouldn't be happy with that too.

SPEAKER_02 5:06:14

So most surprising performance.

SPEAKER_04 5:06:16

The what's her face that played Shuri?

unknown 5:06:18

Yep.

SPEAKER_04 5:06:18

I can't remember her name.

SPEAKER_02 5:06:19

Latisha.

SPEAKER_04 5:06:20

Yeah, Latisha. Yeah, I think I love this character. And I'm actually sad that she becomes Black Panther later um because I want her to thrive in this character. And I kinda I don't I don't remember her and Tony never meet, do they? No, that's a shame. It would have been a great scene, right? That would be awesome. But her and uh Mark Ruffalo at least met and they have a talk, so that was neat. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 5:06:47

Her and um Yes, Bruce Banner, yes, you're right.

SPEAKER_04 5:06:49

Yeah, but she's a genius, she's awesome. Like, I just love this character. I really like her.

SPEAKER_02 5:06:54

So yeah, I I was funny. So per this is just this is performance-wise. For me, yes, I I'm gonna agree with you. Letitia was great as Sherry. That and this is probably my favorite Sherry we we ever have had in the MCU thus far. Um, I I want to give some props to Michael B. Jordan because I do like his performance of it, of the character. Um to me, that did stick out to me when I saw it in theaters, and I remind I was reminded of that uh in the rewatch, that he he does give a good performance for this. Like he does give a lot for it. It's just that you could you could disagree with the the character itself and how he was written and on the story and all that stuff, but that, yeah. All right, weakest performance. I feel like there's two.

SPEAKER_04 5:07:46

I give it to Daniel Fellow, the traitor ass. I think he's awful.

SPEAKER_02 5:07:50

Yep.

SPEAKER_04 5:07:50

I do not like the actor. I haven't liked him in any LD so I'm sorry, guy, but you just are someone I don't relate. I can't find I don't see honesty in Obviously, in this funny sense. I didn't mean it like that, but I just don't see an honesty happening. I do struggle with him and I know I don't want anyone out there mad at me, but I mean it's all taste guys, right? I'm not gonna pretend to like somebody I don't.

SPEAKER_02 5:08:12

I don't even remember his actual name in the movie, so I'm gonna say the same thing, Trader Ass. So between Trader Ass and Claw.

SPEAKER_04 5:08:21

His nickname is Trader Ass. I love it.

SPEAKER_02 5:08:24

I'm sorry. I've kind of fits, but yeah. Trader Ass and Claw, I think, are the weaker performance. And don't I so I do not have a problem with Claw as much. It makes better sense that he passed away that early. They killed him off and by the second act. I'm thankful for that because had he lingered on, it would have been much worse.

SPEAKER_04 5:08:48

I agree.

SPEAKER_02 5:08:49

But so he served for the plot device of what they're trying to do in the film, so I'll give it that. But uh I've I've seen Andy Circus do better. And I think it's just what was written for him. He he's not bad, he's a great actor and everything. And I think this is how they wanted him to be, but he they made him too comedical.

unknown 5:09:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:09:14

Probably is the best way to say it. But then again, I don't remember too much about the what Ulysses Claw was like in the comics, so maybe he was more accurate than I thought. So who knows?

SPEAKER_04 5:09:24

But I just I just wish he was seen more sly. Like you can keep the attitude he's got, because I kind of think it fits and he plays that well. Um, but the slyness of being able to evade multiple countries that are looking for him, I don't buy it. You know what I mean? Like, I feel like Los Angeles Police Department could find that guy. You know what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_02 5:09:48

Like, I feel like kind of hard to miss.

SPEAKER_04 5:09:51

Yeah, I feel like you could send out like the guys that look for Bigfoot and they'd find him. You know what I'm saying? Like on accident. He's there. He's just so much there. He's ridiculous. So I just wish he was slier. You know, he's it was like a more of a oh, this is why he always gets away because he's super smart about it. You know what I mean? Like, but there just was none of that, you know.

SPEAKER_02 5:10:11

Yeah, yeah. No, I agree. All right, casting wins or misses.

SPEAKER_04 5:10:16

So casting win, that's where I put for a win, I put um Killmonger, uh Michael B. Jordan. Michael B. Jordan. Okay. Because to me, I there's nothing I can think of that makes me go, wow, what an awesome, like really standout. I feel that kind of thing. Regardless of what I agree with is because I agree that he's I think he played the part well. I think he I think you're 100% right about he being the representation of a failed ideology. And that's why I think there's nothing wrong with any of that. And I think he plays it well and he's got quite a swagger to him, but I can't think of anything that makes me just like he doesn't stick out to me like Green Goblin does, you know, Willem Defoe or anything. But I so I put it as a win because he does a great job, you know. Um Yeah. Uh yeah, of course, it's great.

SPEAKER_02 5:11:02

Yeah. Yeah, I I agree with with your sentiments there on the casting wins. I actually would put Angela Bassett for myself as a casting win for this. Oh, yeah. She plays a good mother of them. And one thing that I will say that I I do like of this movie, when they get it's something that I don't see in the MCU too often, and so this is a very big compliment for this film in particular, is that when they have a feeling of emotion, you can feel it whenever whether it's happy or sad, or especially when they're mad and things like that, like they raise their voice and they're throwing up their fists and all that stuff. Like you could just see it in their face and how they all change and everything. I'm like, that is is really good for that acting part of being able to do that, and all every one of them from Killmonger, the Chadwick Bozeman, to Shiri to especially Angela Bassett, can do that performance, and she she brings that again into Wakanda Forever, and I can't wait to talk about her role in that one specifically for that. Um, but that's that's just one thing I wanted to mention while we were at that. That I put Angela Bassett as my casting win for sure.

SPEAKER_05 5:12:17

Nice.

SPEAKER_02 5:12:18

And I do have to give a mention to Forrest Whitaker.

SPEAKER_04 5:12:21

So in this yeah, I almost forgot about it.

SPEAKER_02 5:12:24

So in this, you know, we talk about in every one of these movies how they have a legacy actor that comes in. Everyone easily could have said Angela Bassett in this movie is the legacy actor, but I would say Forrest Whitaker in this movie is the legacy actor, and Angela Bassett is the legacy actor for Wakanda Forever.

SPEAKER_04 5:12:42

Yeah, I I completely agree, which makes me more angry about how he goes out. So I don't know it. I'm with you. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:12:50

I hear you. All right. Miss Opportunity is a waste of potential.

SPEAKER_04 5:12:52

Yeah, the missed opportunity here is you could have really fleshed out an interesting character with Claw and could have had him in this more if he wasn't so wild and ridiculous. I see that. You gave us a little more of what we saw before, and we just didn't want it and to kill him, and we're just kind of like, yeah, that character is so pointless almost. There's no reason for him almost at all. Anytime we see him in the MCU, the only thing he's good for is giving you any kind of vibrant. That's it. Okay.

SPEAKER_06 5:13:20

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_04 5:13:21

Boring. You know, so yeah, I just feel like they they took a character and used him in a very bad way, I think.

SPEAKER_02 5:13:28

Yeah. Alright, so guys, the direction and production. So what what comments do you have to say about the directing style, cinematography? So I think the cinematography is good.

SPEAKER_04 5:13:40

I think the camera placing's great. Uh, I think there's a lot of great visuals in this, um, especially in the beginning and middle. Um, I think the director's very smart. I think he's I think he films live action real well. Like our you know, like practical action real well. Because that first that first uh openings or the casino fight, I love it. And I think he films it real well. Um with that, the action in this is great. Um it just loses me with the CGI. We get the CGI part, and this is a taste thing. It does kind of give me a knock in the butt and make me I usually what happens with me and CGI is I'll be watching a movie, CGI will happen that's shoddy, and I almost don't think about it because I can pass it by, and I almost immediately accept the fact that it's okay at CGI. This movie went into the CGI moments for me, and it was shocking, and it set me out of the story. So I felt like I was noticing something that all they don't think they intended me to feel this way. So I'm gonna I'm gonna have to say that I think they misuse their funds when it comes down to when the CGI needs to really or just less of it. You know, I I really think that last fight could have been somewhere else. I mean, it's like I just I think they kind of took advantage of the fact that they've gotten we've gotten used to CGI DMCU, and it just kind of fell short for me. Um music goes great in this movie. I think that's one of the things that excels at the moment.

SPEAKER_02 5:15:08

Yeah, I love the mixture of uh African tribal music with the the the rap of nowadays blended together that really well creatively done. Yeah, it's awesome. Yes, yeah, it's very creative.

SPEAKER_05 5:15:24

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 5:15:25

Yeah. I completely agree with all that all that you said on that. I put moderate action for the CGI quality because of that scene in particular at the end. But, anyways, yes. So now we're getting on to our hot takes. Yeah, I've said my hot takes.

SPEAKER_04 5:15:38

All right. I I said that I mean, I I don't I don't want people to get mad at me, but there are the few things I said I I all due respect. I just felt like a little bit of it got jammed down my throat. Um, but yeah, my biggest hot take is Killmonger's plan. And I talked about that earlier. It's just kind of really Yeah. So eye roll, it still makes sense, but it's kind of okay.

SPEAKER_02 5:16:01

Yeah. Well, to me, to me, the plan doesn't make sense for long-term prosperity. Right, right. And the the main reason is he never thinks beyond giving the weapons. Yeah. Because yeah, okay, the goal is give the oppressed black people weapons. That's literally what he basically says. Um, and then they topple over governments. One, that you can't just topple over government with weapons. You got the Avengers out there. You there's other there's other pieces out there that you have not thought through.

SPEAKER_04 5:16:34

Yeah. And two, they're not all right about all of it. Like there's certain things that it's new on.

SPEAKER_02 5:16:39

Well, and here's a here's a third. Say you succeed in that. What then? What says they're not gonna come after you? You've given these people that do not how the you know how to use these weapons, you teach them how to use it. If they have a similar philosophy to you, they eat their own in this same ideology. You are not gonna be the king.

SPEAKER_06 5:17:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:17:02

It yeah. So this is gonna lead me actually to my hot take. This film proves that the toxicity of identity politics only leads to rage, warfare, and self-destruction. Whether you like it or not. And take a look at Killmonger as his example. His father came directly from Wakanda, not from a descendant of a slave to America or any other country. He went Killmonger went to MIT, an Ivy League school. He joined the Navy SEALs and mastered a specific craft of eliminating targets, most of whom were enemies of America. The freedom he enjoyed and he was privileged to was never hindered by the color of his skin or his heritage. But instead by a worldview that teaches your ancestors' oppression must be all that you are. Which aren't even his actual ancestors, as I just pointed out. He came from Wakanda. His his father was literally part of the royal family of Wakanda. And it was because of his father's poor choices why all that stuff went down. Even though, yeah, T'Chaka, you had a problem too. Um didn't bring him home. Yes, that wasn't that hard to do. Anyways, um, so T'ha T'Challa, uh Black Panther, we know, takes a bold and progressive decision at the end to strike a balance of benefiting the world, using their resources, but making sure that the vibranium is not turned into forging weapons, but instead used as education for underprivileged youth. I think that was a great way of balancing it, of that ideology not the ideology, I'm sorry, but balancing the idea of let's open up more to the world because we actually can help them. And I feel like that was more speared on because we don't want any more people like killmongers. So if there's a way we could help educate the people uh to not rely on old oppression that they actually aren't living in, that's where it all boils down to. Um, so yeah, I'm not gonna say that last part because I'll definitely get canceled there.

SPEAKER_04 5:19:29

So I'll read it when we're done. I want to know what you're talking about. It can't be that bad, but we haven't really said much.

SPEAKER_02 5:19:40

Honestly, this isn't bad, but to the wrong to the wrong people that actually worship Killmonger, they will yes.

SPEAKER_04 5:19:46

You know, and that's yeah. Because I I've said it already. I still agree with you on all of that. Yeah, the only way that it would have been sent home better, yeah. I believe, I would have believed it, if they just wouldn't have done it in Oakland. The fact that they did it there is makes you feel like Killmonger accomplished something whenever you needed to end this feeling like you didn't at all.

SPEAKER_02 5:20:08

Because I it's I get what you're saying. I'm trying to wrap my head around that, but I don't see it.

SPEAKER_04 5:20:14

It's like I don't yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:20:16

I just see where they go there. The main reason they go there is Tachala says, This is where our father killed our uncle. And this is where I want to start that um that Wakandan Center so we can teach uneducated youth to not kill each other. Right.

SPEAKER_04 5:20:32

But it's kind of a side, it's like a side hustle of see, at least Kilmonger got this done, right? I don't know, it just feels that way. Hmm. All right, they might as well just put a statue of them up in the middle of the whole goddamn thing. See, if they did that, I would have been the kind of it just should have been any other place, and it would have been like, yeah, you're right. They're just changing things. But because they made it about where he came from, they made it very personal like that. That bothers me. Sorry. Okay. That's just a even solid eyes. Yeah. But I guess that you know, that's right. All right. I might be going too hard on that, I guess. But like I said, that's beyond all that, I've already pointed out the things that are not political that's wrong with this movie. You know what I mean? For me at least. Okay, so best scene of the movie. Best scene of the movie, I think it's when he does learn about his father and what his father had done. I think that there's some of the best acting from him. I think it's a real good scene. Um, I really like that one a lot. Yep.

SPEAKER_06 5:21:36

I agree.

SPEAKER_02 5:21:37

I completely agree. Least best scene or worst scene of the movie. I think it's the killmonger burning the um burning the heart-shaped herbs. And I own I left that spot blank until you told me that.

SPEAKER_04 5:21:56

I really don't like that scene.

SPEAKER_02 5:21:57

I because I agree with your point of view that that's when someone else should have said, wait a minute.

SPEAKER_04 5:22:02

Well, it goes beyond his plan and gets more about a revenge about a place that Yes.

SPEAKER_02 5:22:07

Yep.

SPEAKER_04 5:22:07

If it's got something to do with a plan, it would make sense and it doesn't. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:22:11

You know, like actually, it kind of goes against his own plan of if don't you want them all more powerful? Can't everyone be Black Panther at that point then? Anyways, so uh best villain moment for you. Um mine's an interesting one. Mine's mine's one that I you kind of have to think about for a moment. And it's probably a little minute, or maybe you'll call it a little stupid, but I put go ahead. I put mine is when Killmonger looks at Queen Ramonda and says, Hey Auntie. And you'd be like, huh? Because usually in that type of lingo, when someone, especially uh African American people, when they say that to each other, that's supposed to be a term of endearment to be like, we're all family, hey Auntie, whether they're actually their aunt or not. And he's using it though in a sadistic way. Like I'm jabbing this into you that I'm here and I'm gonna take over. Hey Auntie, type thing.

SPEAKER_06 5:23:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:23:18

So I thought, okay, for that lingo of the culture wise, I think that's pretty that's pretty villainous. So, anyways. Maybe overthought that.

SPEAKER_04 5:23:29

Yeah, I yeah, I didn't have much in here for this one because I just had struggle with it. Uh boy. His moment though, I think his best moment is the moment I'm I complain about the most though. And unfortunately, it's like the best and the worst. Like the worst scene of the movie is him burning the leaves, but the best moment of his is him burning the leaves because it kind of proves that, oh, this is there's this isn't just you, you're no it proved me that you're whether I agree with what he thinks, it's not purely that. It's m there's a deeper meanness to this person.

SPEAKER_06 5:24:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 5:24:11

So that's why I'm gonna give that to him for that. I can see that.

SPEAKER_02 5:24:16

Yeah. It's hard to explain that, but I get it.

SPEAKER_06 5:24:19

Uh most punchable face for you. I put Tachaka. Just another dad. Deadbeat dad. So like you've convinced me with that.

SPEAKER_04 5:24:34

I agree with you. I I hate to say that, but I want to gets what he deserves, so I'm gonna give it to I'm gonna give it to him too.

SPEAKER_02 5:24:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 5:24:42

He is a piece of crap parent.

SPEAKER_02 5:24:43

It's up until that point, and I get it, everyone makes mistakes, but your mistake literally creates a villain. Like anyways. Yeah. Anyways. Uh, one prop you take home. I put those remote control discs that that you can that Shiri says you could throw on cars. I thought those discs are kind of cool. I was cool. I was gonna choose one of the beads, but they use the beads in the next movie too. And part of me is like, what's something that I don't remember seeing in the next movie that's unique to this movie?

SPEAKER_04 5:25:14

So those remote controls like a fake one of the flower things in that like of the of the I think those are cool.

SPEAKER_02 5:25:21

Yeah. Yeah. Or you know what? The um the Wakanda necklace. Oh, yeah. Those are that would be really cool.

SPEAKER_04 5:25:27

Or even his mask there at the museum scene. I like that. That's cool as shit. Yeah, there's some good ones.

SPEAKER_06 5:25:32

All right. Uh, underrated moment. Underrated moment. What do I got here?

SPEAKER_04 5:25:41

That's the moment um that he's talking to in Baku. Okay. I say it's underrated because I don't you're the only person I know that I've listened to or talked with that talks about it. How he talks to him, and then you see how he's wants unite everybody.

SPEAKER_06 5:25:55

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_04 5:25:56

Yeah, I I like that scene. I like it when when uh Chitala's talking to him. Yeah, that's a real good moment of him. You can tell this is the kind of king he wants to be. I think it's I don't think it's talked about enough.

SPEAKER_02 5:26:07

So yeah. I put from my underrated moment is the death of Killmonger. And in particular, this is this is what I want to say about it. Majority of people look and remember what Killmonger said, but they fail to absorb what Chachala says. He offers Killmonger a chance of redemption and to experience a family and learn how to benefit the world, but instead, Killmonger decides to take his own life, assuming that he's just a prisoner forever. He definitely is going to be imprisoned, but there was a moment there where Chachala could have been like, hey, I could have been, I could be, we could in a way rule together and be you could be part of the family, the family you feel like you never had. I would never have abandoned you, because that's what Chichala would have done. He would have said, You could you could stay here, you could be here, you are my cousin. But instead, Killmonger is so blinded by that worldview that he has, he decides it'd be better for him to die. And so that leads me actually into my overrated moment. That line of bury me in the ocean with my ancestors, that is overrated. That's my overrated moment, too. It's hyped up a lot online, especially, but all it is is race baiting. It's stupid. Exactly. It's stupid, it doesn't serve the character.

SPEAKER_04 5:27:26

Yeah, because I'm not gonna talk about it here.

SPEAKER_02 5:27:29

Yeah, no, but I'm just saying it's it would make sense if he wasn't what Condon from Royal Blood, how he got to America. I would I will give you that, but he's not. So him saying it has no weight to it.

SPEAKER_04 5:27:44

Then he's mad at the wrong people.

SPEAKER_02 5:27:46

Yeah. Anyways, um, funniest moment.

SPEAKER_04 5:27:51

The sneaker stuff.

SPEAKER_02 5:27:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 5:27:54

That's hilarious. I just think it's funny. I do I I like a lot of the stuff she does, anyways, but that that's probably probably laughed the most at.

SPEAKER_02 5:28:00

She's she's got one of mine. I got two written down here. I put for her, she says, Great, another broken white boy for us to fix. That was my second chip. That's pretty good. And then I also love Umbaka when he says, I will feed you to my children. Just kidding, we're vegetarians. I'm like, that's funny. That was pretty good. Um, most emotional moment.

SPEAKER_04 5:28:21

I think the whole scene with him confronting his father, Chitala, and you see, I think that that counts as that as the most emotional.

SPEAKER_02 5:28:29

Yeah, that's emotion, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 5:28:30

Because it's him, it's that moment he you see the decision that he's gonna make a different path, that he's gonna be a different kind of person, a different king. When he realizes he can't follow in his footsteps, you know what I mean? Because it's wrong.

SPEAKER_02 5:28:43

That's good.

SPEAKER_04 5:28:43

I really like that scene.

SPEAKER_02 5:28:45

I like that, I like that answer because uh that that pick. Mine is the response from Romanda when T'Challo died. Because you could just tell it was a mother mourning the loss of her son at that moment, type thing. Even though, of course, we know he wasn't dead. But still, I got all right. Whoa, was that the last one?

SPEAKER_05 5:29:03

Holy cow, was it?

SPEAKER_02 5:29:05

Yes, final scores, y'all. Wow, that was the last one. What a push, huh? Awesome. Alright, so uh story out of two for you. Let me make sure. Yeah, I'm not missing anything.

SPEAKER_04 5:29:21

Barbie is like, that seems short. No, it's good. I just I I thought there was something I was miss l leaving out that I wish uh I would have said, but I think we completely Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 5:29:36

We're good.

SPEAKER_04 5:29:37

It's really convenient that they had that one plant, that one herb for him to get the power back with the adds on to the whole convenience of the coming in and out of the power and how what you get out of here. So yeah, I I it bothers me. Um so okay, let's go ahead and do the score. You're right. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 5:29:58

Out of two, what's the

SPEAKER_04 5:30:00

Yeah, it's a one.

unknown 5:30:02

Okay.

SPEAKER_06 5:30:03

I put one point five. Alright, characters. Two. Two. Action and visuals? Point five.

SPEAKER_04 5:30:14

I had a low. That CGI is glaring to me at the end. But that's that is a tasting, though, so I'd be offended at all if you loved it.

SPEAKER_02 5:30:22

Well, I I put 1.5 because there there are hints of the the Panther battles that made me see it. Anyways. Emotion and stakes. A one. I gave it two. For me, the emotion definitely was there. And the stakes where he was about to give people that don't know how to use a gun all these advanced weapons. Like, that's pretty much that's big stakes.

SPEAKER_04 5:30:43

Yeah, I guess if you put it in that, I I could agree.

SPEAKER_02 5:30:45

And his whole goal was to topple governments. It wouldn't have never happened. By the way, they forget. If you're watching this movie and you think, oh my gosh, that would have been a world ending. This is in the MCU. We literally have the Avengers right there. I'm sorry. It would not have worked. Yeah, no. Yeah, it wouldn't have been a good one. Nice trying to part. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 5:31:04

No, I give it the one for the emotion part, but the stakes, I just his whole plan is for that reason. Like it's if. Yeah, that's why I gave it the one. Uh rewatchability and MCU impact. So I'm gonna give it a one. It's I could go the rest of my life and not watch this movie again. Um, but I do believe it is a very is a very important movie to the MCU, mainly for this character and Wakanda itself being involved, just in general.

SPEAKER_06 5:31:30

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 5:31:32

Alright, so I gave it a two because I I could re-watch the movie. I there are parts of it that were there are fun for me, and my ultimate take at the end of it is uh a little bit more nuanced, and I feel actually I I really like the Killmonger died, and linking that with his ideology is the reason why he's the villain. I think that was really for me, uh whether Ryan Cooler intended for that or not, that's how it came across to me. And so for that, it's a win.

SPEAKER_07 5:32:01

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 5:32:04

I like it too. And I feel like it is intended. In in that in that spirit, had Killmonger not one or something else had been different, like a statue erected of him or something like that, that would have then made to me sound like virtual signaling where this was made for one audience, where at least I can at least give a defense enough to say this is meant for everyone. If you agreed with Killmonger, you liked and you saw those points of view. If you agreed with T'Challa, you liked and you saw those points of view. So for that, for me, I feel like that that struck somewhat of a balance. It's it's a risk just doing this whole thing. Yeah, it really is a risk because you're not supposed to politically polarize your fans, but he did it. And at least it's palpable enough for me. So I would give him a for sure. Yeah. Alright. Now, final scores. I am I actually I downgraded mine because of some of the glaring issues that we've talked about. But it's not so far downgraded where I feel like I've compromised too much or anything.

SPEAKER_04 5:33:17

Um, I'm gonna tell you why my score is this. Okay. And I'm gonna make clear why it's not either. Okay? Okay. It is not for the political stuff we talked about. I just wanted to make sure that we were very clear that if I seem very somber about this movie, it is because I have had a hard time separating the issue with the movie and what politics and the society has made it. But I am giving the score to this movie based on the movie itself and letting that go. So even with the whole how it turned out the Emily Kilmonger and whether he's martyred or not, that's not part of it to me, because it there was no clear, it's just how I was feeling, right? So I would with that, I will say, um, I think there's several in there's several convenient things that happen in the storyline of the plot. I think there's a few miscasts and or misusage of characters. The one big glaring pothole plot hole to me is a problem. And it really does feel like Lion King. Kind of remastered and like moved around and kind of in a way fleshed out.

SPEAKER_06 5:34:24

Um so I'm gonna give it a four. I think it's below average.

SPEAKER_04 5:34:32

Oh, I didn't mention and once again, this is why this this is why this one's tough. Because whether I can put a I put a real strong argument out there for that pile that I see you have a struggle with. I see you're struggling with it too. But the thing I will say why I said this is gonna come down to more the more the uh taste than it is actual problems, is because the one big one is that CGI really took me out of the movie. And I it usually doesn't, but that last fight scene, I really was kind of oof, this feels generically boringly fake, and it it reminded me of some of the stuff that's coming up too, and it kind of made me go, uh I think they wanted us to just get caught up in the cultural movement of this and not that see this that way. And it it just doesn't maybe the first time I saw it it didn't bug me, but now that I've seen it four times now. Yeah, that it's very it's very apparent to me that oof, you should have put some more money towards that. Somewhere move the money around.

SPEAKER_05 5:35:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 5:35:34

You know, maybe that car chasing could have been a little shorter and get a little more money towards it or something, because it just it just for me, it really took me out of the movie. And that that's that is a tasting. So you you can breeze through it. That's cool. I I struggle with that sometimes when it gets too heavy. Horror movies do that to me a lot. That's why I'm like, if you can't make the monster or put a guy in the suit, then don't do it because sometimes a horror movie's great until they show you the monster and it's like, ooh, no, it's not scary anymore. You know what I mean? Like it's scary when you just go only barely see it, but and that's what this felt like. It felt like too much, too much down. Could have been a better place to have that. I think the last fight should have been at the waterfall, personally. I think it'd have been a kind of cool all the way around three big important scenes about them fighting at the waterfall. I don't know why it needed to be that huge extravaganza of what they did. I felt like that went super Hollywood, that went super Zack Snyder, felt like Star Wars looked fake. That's why it really bugged me. So that's why the four valid. That is that's the honest truth. But it really just felt for me.

SPEAKER_02 5:36:44

Okay, all right. So uh I'm gonna give the same caveat. It it doesn't not this my score is not reflecting any of the social or political implications of this movie. Just like you, this is just solely based on the quality of the film itself. The story they were telling was a convincing. The the things we normally grade this on, I don't grade my films based on politics, even if they touch upon it like this film does. So, um, with that said, I did give this the the things that were wrong for me in this film was not explaining the depowering of the Black Panther stuff, because I feel like that was, like you said, a little bit of a convenient plot point. Um and then the uh trying to remember what was in the second act that I said, oh, the predictability. I easily was able to see what was gonna happen next, and I wished it had a little more nuance to it of oh, here's a curveball, you didn't see this coming. They didn't have that for me. It got that got to the point where that part was predictable. It got a little bit better towards act three when it came to that, but for act two, I was able to I could have told you the whole act without seeing it, and that was not good for me. Um, and then the the third thing is yes, the CGI quality of between the two Panthers, that did it did feel a little lacking there. And I also can't get over the underutilization of the whole Wakanan army. Because even in the scene that's replaying in the background of us right now, where the first waterfall fight ritual scene, you see everyone there, every tribe. There's a lot of people there, but yet there's not that many in the final battle. And it makes me wonder where are the the green tribe colored people, where are the purple colored tribe people, you know, differentiate their clothing based off the color in the tribe and all that. You don't you only see the Jabari uh white uh wearing colored people and the the border tribe blue wearing colored people, and the Dormelage are just they're basically like the secret surface of the the the um the throne. That's it. You don't see all these other ones, but yet when you go to infinity war, you see everybody, especially when you see infinity war and you compare that that battle to this battle, the masses are huge, and you're like, Where were you during this killmonger thing?

SPEAKER_04 5:39:12

Where were you when he's burning your sacred herb?

SPEAKER_02 5:39:14

Yes. So for that reason, I'm I mean, that's a simple correlation of being like, hey, you gotta talk to the Rooster brothers. They're literally filming the other movie at the same time you're finishing up this one. You could have added some more extras with different robes on just to do something.

SPEAKER_04 5:39:30

To be honest, it would have gave this movie. I'm just want to show that point out to you. It would have given this movie a larger scale feeling. Yes. That it kind of deserves. Yeah. Because even looking at scenes like this, it still feels almost like a little bit of a little bit of a little bit.

SPEAKER_02 5:39:44

This feels grand.

SPEAKER_04 5:39:45

Well, this does, but it doesn't, right? It like the background makes it feel grand. That shot does, right? If you imagine some of this incorporated with like the other stuff we're talking about, I think it would be it would be better. But sometimes this movie feels too personal that they don't feel it doesn't feel like a kingdom, it feels like a town.

SPEAKER_02 5:40:03

Yeah. Yes, a village, a small village. Like, no, this is a city.

SPEAKER_04 5:40:08

This should be a whole country, actually.

SPEAKER_02 5:40:09

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So for that reason, I am gonna give this though a score of eight out of ten.

SPEAKER_05 5:40:15

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 5:40:16

So I was a little more generous with it. I originally had this at a nine between a nine and a nine point five, but some of those other things as we were talking about them, like those are some glaring things I wasn't really noticing too much because I was getting caught up in the story, I feel like a little more so. That I I can't ignore them now that I see them and I can't defend them.

SPEAKER_04 5:40:35

Yeah, I'm glad you went a little higher. Um, because I will tell you this, I do feel bad that I I can't, I can't 100% guarantee I completely washed off all the political stuff that made me feel ill for this movie. Because where you with the amped up awesome feeling, I don't know if I'd ever get it for it because of the bad taste I've always had in my mouth over it. But the other thing is is I don't one thing I I want to be honest about my scores though. And if I take that out of it, and I just would rather my scores be low for actual reasons that can be debated and not taste like the CGI thing. Because even though you agree with me, there's a lot of people out there that's not gonna affect and it's fine. And and it's it is it is a me problem when it comes to the CGI thing. So I do feel bad that I gave it four because of that. Like that was definitely like the some of the reason why I got drove down further. Um because it isn't like a legit argument to have, because there's no you know, all you can say is it looked good. I'm gonna say it looked bad. In either way, you could even say that, but I got through it and said, but I couldn't. So no right or wrong here. It's just for me, it wasn't my cup of tea at the end.

SPEAKER_02 5:41:53

Yeah, personal taste.

SPEAKER_04 5:41:54

Yeah, and and and I feel bad because this is the first time in this where personal taste went that got more you know, got more attention than actual facts of things that are issues. Yeah. Even though I still had a couple legit ones to complete.

SPEAKER_02 5:42:08

Well, that's why for for my final score, I gave the same caveat you did, and I wanted to make sure anyone who's watching or listening to this, I didn't base my score off any social or political implications this movie was trying to convey. I wanted it for the and that's why I laid out my problems with the film just alone itself. So yeah.

SPEAKER_04 5:42:27

I do feel bad that I can't get on board with that CGI. I wish it could be.

SPEAKER_02 5:42:31

I could forgive some bad CGI as long as the story around it is good. Yeah, and I I was still entertained with the story. Yeah, but I do agree I see the false in it.

SPEAKER_04 5:42:43

Because I do, I was like, damn.

SPEAKER_02 5:42:45

Yeah.

unknown 5:42:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:42:46

Alright, so the official Goodell Multiverse score for Black Panther 1 is six out of ten.

SPEAKER_04 5:42:52

Not awful. No. Maybe not what people expected. No, but that's okay. Maybe not what it kind of deserves, I guess, for the movie it was. But it is it's hey, we're all we can only be honest up here. There's gonna be a couple more that come through that you're gonna look at me and be really you think that about that?

SPEAKER_02 5:43:09

But it is, right? Is there one final sentence you want to leave with this review?

SPEAKER_04 5:43:16

Yes, uh, I think it's this um um um despite my despite my issues with the film, I think it's one of you guys, if you're going on this journey with us or on the journey of the MCU in general, don't skip this one. No. Definitely watch it. It's important to the MCU. Um Chad Wick is shows why he got the role and how we wish he could have kept it. Obviously, with knew what happened to him, it's tragic, um, which we'll talk about more next time, but or on the next one or with uh Black Panther 2. Yep. Um, but yeah, don't skip this movie, guys. Uh just because I gave it a four, it's definitely still why it's still a four amongst uh one out of ten of the best movies out there that we can get for comic books.

SPEAKER_05 5:43:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 5:43:59

So don't get me wrong, this is a good movie. It's just a four compared to the others.

SPEAKER_06 5:44:04

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_04 5:44:05

And that that's kind of you know, they're contending against some real good stuff. And the bar has been set high. And I've taken that bar very seriously. And this movie gets no exception just because it's whatever cultural thing it is. Yeah. Because it's you know, when you got something like Civil War floating around out there yeah, up your game, y'all. No more excuses for the plot holes.

SPEAKER_02 5:44:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 5:44:30

Yeah, but that's just me. So watch it though, don't skip it.

SPEAKER_02 5:44:33

Yes, I agree. Well, uh it's if I I actually feel I feel like you have a lot more optimism for people that are just watching it right now for the first time than when it came out, only because they don't have that social um yeah, I'm jealous stuff spewed onto it, you know. It wasn't it wasn't it?

SPEAKER_04 5:44:54

We felt like politics was invading the MCU. Yeah. We didn't want it. Because we're no, no, this yes was to escape all that shit.

SPEAKER_03 5:45:00

Exactly.

SPEAKER_04 5:45:01

This wasn't to get involved in it. This was to go and celebrate everybody. Yes. And and so you guys now, if you haven't seen this, enjoy the hell out of this because yeah, there was a time where it was almost like, can we even talk about this movie right now?

SPEAKER_02 5:45:15

Because Exactly it was a problem.

SPEAKER_04 5:45:17

You know, I didn't like that.

SPEAKER_02 5:45:18

This movie really is made for everybody, and we should be able to celebrate other cultures in an MCU movie like this without it getting toxic. So I I blame all the toxic people out there that made this movie have bad taste in some people's mouths. For me, I didn't try to let that affect me too much because I did like this movie, and I I already know that dogs are gonna bark. So, whatever. Like, chill out. So, anyways, thank you guys for staying with us on the Godell Multiverse podcast. Ike, what do we have coming up on our plates?

SPEAKER_04 5:45:56

Oh, so what we got coming on our plate, guys, just so you know, it's gonna be episode 20, right? Oh my gosh. Did I just say that right? That's true. Yes, episode 20. I'm enjoying the hell out of this guy. I can't believe we're at 20 already. Sweet. So we're gonna be episode 20, guys. Uh oh, yeah, that's right. I actually forgot we were doing this. So we're gonna be catching up with the San Diego Comic-Con live the best we can.

SPEAKER_05 5:46:21

Yep.

SPEAKER_04 5:46:21

Uh, we're not sure we're gonna be live with you guys yet. If anyone's gonna be watching, we're gonna try. Why not? Be fun. Yeah. But what we are gonna do is at least during our multiverse minute, um, while we're talking about other things that we put on or docket, we're also going to get interrupted by the computer telling us this just dropped.

SPEAKER_03 5:46:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 5:46:38

Let's just go off on whatever it is and have fun with it. And then you know, the multiverse minute is gonna take up, they'll depend on our scheduling and our agenda might change depending on how long that goes. That would be the only thing you'd get from us in a retrospective next week. We're not sure. We will see how it goes. Um, but then also we are uh gonna be oh my god. So that's the same day, guys. Guess what? We are doing for our retrospective. I cannot believe it. And it's actually I'm super excited about it. At least I get to watch this two or three times this week. Avengers Infinity War. And what the hell?

SPEAKER_02 5:47:16

This is this I I said on the last episode the Black Panther was our mother's favorite. She only really likes just watching Wakanda, I found out. She she just loves uh the Wakanda culture and all that stuff. Infinity War is her favorite Avengers movie. So that's cool. She her the first thing we at I would ask her is what's your favorite Avengers movie? She's like, the one they all dust up. And I'm like, there you go. Infinity War.

SPEAKER_04 5:47:39

You know, I do like that it's as complimentary that we our schedule has landed Avengers Infinity War retrospective on us also probably doing a live reaction to the doomsday trailer.

SPEAKER_02 5:47:53

Yeah. I think that's cool. So I I feel yes, exactly, right? So I feel like we we may or may not we're still discussing how we're gonna do this because we want to do is really cool make this special with the Comic Con. Literally the same night we're we're planning on filming and everything, but Infinity War is already gonna take up a lot of oxygen for doing the the retrospective review. So we may or may not have a rumor mill rundown. We may or may not. Our branch point breakdown may even be the trailer reaction exclusively itself. We don't really know. We're we're gonna debate all that, guys, but that's up to us to schedule the show for you. But stay tuned, we are gonna have it. So um, we are on Facebook, we're on TikTok, we're on Instagram, we're on YouTube, we're on wherever you stream. So, yes, the we're all over the interwebs right there. Um, yeah, so tell your family, tell your friends, and tell your enemies. Get us out there, guys. I hope you enjoyed this retrospective review, and until next time, we'll see you at the movies.