Are you in need of creative humour and camaraderie?

Listen to this if:

1. You’ve ever wondered what drives an artist to create.
2. You feel an innate need to make things.
3. Or you don't feel that need at all.

In this episode of Creative Conversations, Rebecca chats about her process working with charcoal and Sandro, ever assured that he is not compelled to be creative, shows that he might have an inkling of creativity afterall. 

Creative Conversations is a podcast exploring contemporary art, science, and friendship.

Hosted by artist Rebecca Jones and science trained Sandro Micozzi, each episode brings together conversations about creativity, observation, and the different ways we understand the world. 

Rebecca also shares her art practice at rebeccajones.com.au 

If you enjoyed our podcast please forward to your friends or other interesting likeminded people.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:06

Welcome to Creative Conversations, a podcast exploring contemporary art, science, and friendship. In this episode, we step into the studio and take a closer look how artworks are made, from charcoal drawings to creative decisions, and how different ways of thinking shape what we see. Hey Sanji, welcome to my studio.

SPEAKER_00 0:27

Hey Jones, thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_02 0:29

I'm very delighted that you're here because it's still a new studio.

SPEAKER_01 0:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 0:34

It's starting to get a bit of life into it.

SPEAKER_01 0:37

Starting to look like an artist studio, that's for sure.

SPEAKER_02 0:39

Yeah, you were last year when you helped me polish the floor.

SPEAKER_01 0:43

That's right. And now I see there's a layer of charcoal in the corner.

SPEAKER_02 0:47

Hi.

SPEAKER_01 0:48

Yeah. So you've been mad at work? Curiously creating some wonderful art pieces. Why don't we chat about those today?

SPEAKER_02 0:54

I think we should chat about those, Sanji, because last time we realized that you have no innate need to create, and that I do. And you're a scientist, I'm an artist. Yep. And here we are. So now we're going to explore the artist side of creativity. You asked really interesting questions because you're of that science mentality. So I'm just going to hand it to you because we're standing in my studio, we're looking at my charcoal drawings. I've got work that's been displayed in shows before, and I've got new work on the boil. So, and their charcoal drawings is that's the medium I quite like working in, is charcoal on paper.

SPEAKER_01 1:33

Oh, look, I think you've got a real knack for creating with that medium. The charcoal drawings are quite spectacular. And we've been chatting about your style, you know, what you hope to achieve when you create these types of work, how you want the observer to interact with your work.

SPEAKER_02 1:52

I think that's my job as an artist, right? To grab a viewer. Once they're in front of my work, I've got to leave them there as long as possible.

SPEAKER_01 2:06

Thank you, Dr. Reel.

SPEAKER_02 2:07

Thank you. Here we are. And here's the role of the artist.

SPEAKER_01 2:12

All right, well, why don't we just start chatting about some of your work and just figure out what makes it tick?

SPEAKER_02 2:20

Good luck with that. But please take it away, Sandy. Ask me my first question. All right.

SPEAKER_01 2:26

Well, why don't we start with that? I don't know what how how should we refer to that piece? Okay.

SPEAKER_02 2:31

This piece is titled Look What You Just Made Me Do.

SPEAKER_01 2:34

That's right.

SPEAKER_02 2:35

And it is from my previous show that I had at No Vacancy, and it is a body of work that looks at women musicians and their lyrics.

SPEAKER_01 2:48

Well, that particular piece there, I looked at that, and I couldn't help but know that when you first showed it to me, I was really close to the drawing. And you were talking about structure and what you were hoping to achieve. And because I was so close, I couldn't see it. And then we pinned it up on the wall, and I stepped back a few metres, I'll say three metres away, and all that was revealed. And I I found that really fascinating. I couldn't see it when I was really up close. And then I pulled away and then I started to understand what you meant by structure, and it's got depth. It looks like a sculpture, and yet it's 2D. And I'm blown away by your skill set for a start because you're able to achieve that. So you're obviously a talented artist.

SPEAKER_02 3:33

Oh, thanks, Angela.

SPEAKER_01 3:34

Yeah, and you know, you've got these skills to draw upon. You're able to bring that to your art pieces and great depth. There's obviously layers to it. I look at it and I'm fascinated. It looks like I see a female face that's withdrawing into the piece of art. But I'd love to hear your mindset. What drove you to make this piece of art?

SPEAKER_02 4:00

What drove me to make that art?

SPEAKER_01 4:02

This particular piece, just start with the fundamentals. Where do you start when you're when you're drawing that? Do you do start with you know the printed words across the page? No. No.

SPEAKER_02 4:12

Okay. All right. Well that's a hard no. That's a hard no. All right. No. Well, I think it probably comes down to what the body of work is about. And that is actually it's about communication, and it's that play between visual communication and the written word.

SPEAKER_00 4:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:25

And it's also tapping into ideals of positive affirmation, but then it's going conceptually further back and it's looking at patriarchal viewpoints through a feminist lens. It's looking at how women have space to be who they are. I was looking at these exceptional musicians like Jua Lippard, Taylor Swift, and Elena Sniffers, or these amazing women who are very true to themselves, take up space and get to perform their words on stage every night. And so I was thinking about that and thinking about the role as a visual artist, and we don't have that same opportunity in a large audience to be able to do that. But I wanted to have a conversation about this positive affirmation and role models that these are, and then looking at it in a visual format. So it's me playing against the visual and the word, and then creating my own arena, so to speak, to have that conversation.

SPEAKER_01 5:20

Can I just ask? And I I hear you you're talking about positive affirmation. There's obviously those themes running through work, but can I ask that there's a female face? As I said, to me, it looks like she's withdrawing into the art, like almost falling into it. Can you interpret that? Or what what it's not an interpretation, it's your view because you're the artist. What's happening there? Can you explain to that?

SPEAKER_02 5:45

I think technically, if we look at it from a technical perspective, technical and emotional.

SPEAKER_01 5:49

I want to understand what you're trying to uh I feel technically forward there.

SPEAKER_02 5:53

I think technically it's I don't see the page because I I do work with just paper. I don't see the paper as just a flat space. I don't see it as two-dimensional. I see it as three-dimensional and four-dimensional. So there's that experience between me, the paper, and then what goes on. And I look at it as a deep space. And so her falling into it, I'm quite excited that you see that there is enough space for a person to be falling into the page. It's like going into another world or I don't know. What uh well, I mean, there's so many movies you can draw on your movie knowledge to say where there's other worlds. Is it like Stranger Things that yeah, yeah, the upside down? The upside down. So it's a deeper space, it's not what just exists on the surface.

SPEAKER_01 6:34

But that's not like a positive theme. I mean, not from a logical perspective. I'm looking at that, and that doesn't appear to be like a positive theme. Can you explain?

SPEAKER_02 6:45

What do you mean?

SPEAKER_01 6:47

It looks quite dark, the themes that you've got going there.

SPEAKER_02 6:50

Oh, really?

SPEAKER_01 6:51

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:52

Do you think it's not the charcoal that's colouring your image of that?

SPEAKER_01 6:55

Oh, it could be. But to me, it looks like this female face that's withdrawing into the art, and I just instantly get a negative sort of feeling about it. I do.

SPEAKER_02 7:04

But it's a strong piece, though.

SPEAKER_01 7:05

Strong piece. Oh, absolutely. But I'm just trying to understand what you're trying to convey emotionally. That's what I'm trying to understand.

SPEAKER_02 7:13

There's a tussle between a visual medium and the language of words. It's a communicative piece and it's trying to fit them both on the same page. So I'm looking at the written word and the visual image, and I want them. It's almost like there's a litigato, piccolo litigato, a little fight on the page where it is a struggle. I don't think it's a negative thing that you can see. Yeah. I think that it's more that you can read the actual fight going on within the page. And I don't think it's necessarily sinister or in a dark place, but I think anything that you're working through, whether it's a difference of opinion or conversation, that exists, right?

SPEAKER_01 7:56

Yeah. And look I'm interpreting this particular piece of art from a non-artistic perspective.

SPEAKER_02 8:03

But I think that's okay. I don't think you need an artistic perspective.

SPEAKER_01 8:06

No, no, but you know, I'm just being completely honest about the raw what's invoked in me when it's a big thing. Well, that's good though, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:13

That's what you want it to do. You want it to just fall off.

SPEAKER_01 8:16

There is a bit of a dark edge to a lot of your work, which I really like. It's interesting, it's bold, draws you in and asks questions. I don't mind the dark. Me too.

SPEAKER_02 8:30

I think it's a valid space to be in. Not everything is always going to be well, I don't I think you've got a whole range of emotions, right? And you can sit in the dark. But I think the other thing, don't be fooled by the charcoal or the paper as black and white. If I was to do this in colour, well, I don't think I could do them in colour because my skill set is different. Like I have a natural affinity and I've worked very hard with charcoal, so I have a natural affinity towards that material. Okay. And so we can work together to create a conversation that does have that emotive tendency because I have the ability to hold on to it and let it go at the same time. And I'm okay with it and comfortable with that. Whereas if it's in colour, then you've got colour theory to contend with.

SPEAKER_01 9:08

Help me out. What what what do you mean by colour theory?

SPEAKER_02 9:11

Oh, well, when you're working with colours, are you familiar with the colour wheel? You've got blue, red, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 9:17

Yellow. Roy gebiv. Roy gebiv.

SPEAKER_02 9:19

Roy gebiv.

SPEAKER_01 9:19

Roy gebiv.

SPEAKER_02 9:20

Roy gebiv, roy gebiv. You go go.

SPEAKER_01 9:22

Roy Roy Gebiv. That's again science background. That's how I remember things.

SPEAKER_02 9:26

Anyhow, there's cool colours and warm colours. And so cool colours will recede and warm colours will come forward. And so when you're working in colour, you need to take that into consideration. And so that will slow me down. To have to work in colour will slow me down. Also, if I work in colour, then I have control over how I tell you how to feel because colour will actually emote. People will experience something based on the colour something is. And that's not my job. I don't have to tell you how to feel. That's not my job. That's your job. And so as an artist, that's probably why I also like working in black and white. Because then you can project whatever you want onto it. But don't take it as that, oh, it's dark. I mean it's charcoal. It's dark.

SPEAKER_01 10:12

Well, I can't help but that there is that sense that there's that kind of a dark edge to it, but it's intriguing. Yeah, obviously skilled at using that as a tool. All right. So that's that piece. That was from a previous art exhibit. Yeah. What about some of the new stuff that you're about to exhibit? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:35

I am riffing off of the previous work. The body work was called Chosen Words. I was looking at contemporary women artists, and this time I decided to go back in time. And so I've gone back to the 1960s because I think that's a little bit of fun, the swinging 60s. And instead of music, I'm jumping into film, but I've also chosen a film that was a book. And so once again, it's been transported from the written word to the visual medium, and now I'm taking it to visual arts. I've chosen Truman Capote's Breakfast at Tiffany's. Interestingly, like that book is not a happy ending. The movie has a happy ending. So once again, the language has changed. And so that intrigues me, that transformation or interpretation. And now I'm taking that interpretation into my work. I'm starting it with the movies. And so I'm starting with stills from the movies. I've got four drawings up and I'm working through them quickly. I spend a short time on each because I feel if I work on one, it becomes labored, heavy.

SPEAKER_01 11:37

Yeah, you mentioned that. I think you said you like to work in 20-minute time intervals. Yeah. Why is that? I would have thought the beauty of being an artist is that you're bound by nothing. You can set up and you can work in uh four-hour time intervals if you want, or work all day. Can you explain why why do you choose to work in 20-minute time intervals? And is that important?

SPEAKER_02 11:59

I think boundaries are important as an artist. I think to make good work, you need not enough time. You probably need not the right materials.

SPEAKER_01 12:08

Okay. So this is the old adage: artists need to struggle.

SPEAKER_02 12:12

Unfortunately. You need to go to the dark place. You probably need the struggle. That becomes the fight, right?

SPEAKER_01 12:20

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:20

Because you don't want to be complacent.

SPEAKER_01 12:22

So see, from my perspective, complacency is a great thing. But I don't feel the need to create. So uh I'm still stunned by that. Yeah. Or I I don't sit around thinking, hmm, I'm gonna go create a piece of wondrous art for people to digest.

SPEAKER_02 12:39

I don't think I do either. I think that the next part, oh, they must digest it. And it's like, well, good luck if you do. But I mean, probably not.

SPEAKER_01 12:46

Yeah, people give uh you know view your art, and but I do hear positive reports about it. I do get blown away at the mindset of an artist and what drives an artist to do what they do. And I've known you for a long time, and I think I know you pretty well, but on this particular case in point, I think we start from very different perspectives. I think there's an inherent need for you to do art and to interact with your world in that way.

SPEAKER_02 13:18

I think I've tried times without it, it's not fun. And I think if I didn't create, I liken it to death. I feel like it's likened to death.

SPEAKER_01 13:28

Life and death scenario.

SPEAKER_02 13:29

Those life and death scenarios always it's pretty dark, isn't it? It is. It's so dark. My work's really light and airy, I promise. It's really nice and joyous.

SPEAKER_01 13:38

Embrace the darkness, Jones.

SPEAKER_02 13:43

Anyway, I haven't need to create. And where were we going? Constraints, time frames. I've forgotten our train of thought now.

SPEAKER_01 13:51

We're talking about time constraints, self-imposed brevity, and uh that struggle, that creativity born out of that struggle.

SPEAKER_02 13:59

I think you need it, right?

SPEAKER_01 14:01

Oh, and something I was uh really interested in understanding is you've got five pieces up here. Take me through. When you start on a piece of art, say this one on the far left, you give that 20 minutes, and then what do you do? Do you go and have lunch or do you move on to the next?

SPEAKER_02 14:16

I can work for more than 20 minutes at a time.

SPEAKER_01 14:19

But didn't you just say you work on 20 minute blocks?

SPEAKER_02 14:22

Yeah, but I don't go have lunch. I do one 20 minutes, then I can't. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:25

Sorry. Thought you just did drug cleaning hours or something. No, no. So no, so all right. So you do a 20-minute block, and but then you'll jump to the next yeah, you gotta jump.

SPEAKER_02 14:39

You gotta keep it active. You gotta be you gotta be active. Gotta go, go, go, go, go.

SPEAKER_01 14:43

And is that helpful or it's exhausting. Yeah, because for me, if I was doing something, I don't like to move on to the next thing until I complete what I'm doing. That's my mindset. My that's my logical process. That's why I'll tackle everything. But yeah, go take it away. How would you how are you working on these five pieces?

SPEAKER_02 15:02

I could work on a really big drawing for a while, but I'd treat it the same way. I'd break it down into sections.

SPEAKER_01 15:07

You do.

SPEAKER_02 15:07

Yeah, but I tend to work overall very quickly. I might spend five minutes and then I will slow it down a bit and break it down, and I will look at it systematically and put it into grids and section it out. But I will spend 20 minutes and then I'll put it aside and then I'll go to the next one and do the same thing. And so I keep rotating through it. It's very democratic in the process. I like to keep it active, keep it moving.

SPEAKER_01 15:29

And this this piece here, this drawing here, the charcoal drawing here, I was looking at that earlier, and the more you look at it, things just sort of leap out at you eventually. Yeah. I think that's what you're doing.

SPEAKER_02 15:42

Yeah, that's hopefully you wanted a quick grab and a slow burn.

SPEAKER_01 15:44

Yeah, and yeah, I see it's some sort of creature sloth.

SPEAKER_02 15:50

No, because they're still sticking with Great Food Tiffany, so it's the cat.

SPEAKER_01 15:53

It's a cat, okay.

SPEAKER_02 15:54

It's a cat. It's just as being the cat's haven't been drawn for 20 minutes. So yeah, we're not giving cat any details right now. But it's nice that you can see there's got an animal weight to it.

SPEAKER_01 16:05

Yeah, I can see that. Yeah, it leaps out, but your work, it's not it's not immediately obvious. You have to really look at the piece and spend a little bit of time and let it you know, let yourself be absorbed. Is that something you try to achieve?

SPEAKER_02 16:21

I don't think I necessarily try to achieve that, but I think that's just my nature because I'm willing to sit with someone or something and find out and get to the nitty-gritty bottom of it or understand it more. So I'm not a fly by nighter, Sanji. No, I know that I'm very loyal.

SPEAKER_01 16:37

I know truth is very important to you.

SPEAKER_02 16:40

It is, and so these things you just gotta take a little time, work it out, look at the gym perspectives, and then that all stays on the page. But do you know what, Sanji? We are out of time.

SPEAKER_01 16:50

Oh, wow. Okay. Jeez, that's a screwdriver, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 16:53

We do have a good chit-chat. Well, I reckon you're a creative kind of cat. What would you say that you like to do that's creative?

SPEAKER_01 17:02

Well, and some say that I don't mind a bit of a sing along, but are you getting me, are you trying to get me to have I am wanting to hear the dose sound of Sanji's singing?

SPEAKER_02 17:13

Because I think go on, go out on a tube, Sand.

SPEAKER_01 17:17

All right, will you join in?

SPEAKER_02 17:19

No. There is no way I'm joining in. Okay, give me give me one line of what favorite song. Is there a movie that you like?

SPEAKER_01 17:28

Yeah, uh, one always comes to mind. We're all 80s kids, aren't we?

SPEAKER_02 17:32

Do you know it's very fashionable right now, the 80s?

SPEAKER_01 17:34

We're all Gen X's in this room anyway. Uh Ferris Bueller comes to mind Classic. Yeah, classic. All right, all right.

SPEAKER_00 17:41

Dunkers, darling, dunk. Thank you for all the joy you bring. Picture show, second balcony. Was the place we meet?

SPEAKER_01 17:58

Decat Street.

SPEAKER_00 17:59

Ah, that's oh yeah, that is amazing.

SPEAKER_02 18:01

I like you are creative, you sly fox.

SPEAKER_01 18:08

Good one, James.

SPEAKER_02 18:10

You funny. Anyway, Cheerio Singe.

SPEAKER_01 18:13

All right, till the next time.

SPEAKER_02 18:17

Thanks for listening to Creative Conversations. If you enjoyed this episode, follow the podcast for more conversations exploring art, science, and the ideas that shape how we see the world.