If you could, Would you transform?

This episode is for you if you have ever wondered:

1. Why would someone draw themselves a pair of wings?

2. What would it mean to change direction at any moment?

3. Why are we drawn to symbols of transformation?

Creative Conversations is a podcast exploring contemporary art, science, and friendship.

Hosted by artist Rebecca Jones and science trained Sandro Micozzi, each episode brings together conversations about creativity, observation, and the different ways we understand the world. 

Rebecca also shares her art practice at rebeccajones.com.au 

If you enjoyed our podcast please forward to your friends or other interesting likeminded people.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:05

Welcome to Creative Conversation, a podcast exploring different outsides of country. In this episode, we ask a simple question: if you could, would you transform? Through a conversation about hummingbirds, winds, observation and creativity, we explore why people are drawn to symbols of change and what it means to choose a new direction. Join us as we step inside the studio and unpack the ideas behind a large-scale artwork inspired by movement, possibility, and transformation. Cindy, hi!

SPEAKER_00 0:39

Hey Jones.

SPEAKER_01 0:40

Hi, we're in my studio.

SPEAKER_00 0:41

Yeah, we sure are.

SPEAKER_01 0:42

We are.

SPEAKER_00 0:43

Yeah?

SPEAKER_01 0:43

Look, what can you see?

SPEAKER_00 0:45

Oh, I can see some wings on the wall there.

SPEAKER_01 0:47

We've got wings on the wall, which I had at a show last year in November.

SPEAKER_00 0:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 0:52

And the human-sized wings.

SPEAKER_00 0:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 0:55

And the wings from a hummingbird.

SPEAKER_00 0:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 0:57

Well I sat in that one day. But they're now with two banners hanging on my wall.

SPEAKER_00 1:02

Rather larger than wings for a hummingbird on tipping.

SPEAKER_01 1:06

Is that the second biggest hummingbird?

SPEAKER_00 1:09

Yes. Second biggest hummingbird ever.

SPEAKER_01 1:12

Have you ever seen a bigger one?

SPEAKER_00 1:15

No, Max.

SPEAKER_01 1:16

No, I haven't.

SPEAKER_00 1:18

Alright, let's let's chat about this artwork because you know this is one of my faves of yours. Is it really? Yeah, yeah, I love this. As soon as I saw it, it just was so epic and big and it just spoke to me. So I wanted to know more about it. Can I ask you some questions about it? Because I can see that for a start, like, why? Why did you create such an epic piece and what drove you to do that?

SPEAKER_01 1:44

I can't, I that question makes me laugh every time. You just say, why? And I'm sorry, but why wouldn't you create a piece like that?

SPEAKER_00 1:52

What occurred to me?

SPEAKER_01 1:56

Well, I went into the space, which was a gyroscopic gallery, might be. Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_00 2:00

I saw the piece hanging there.

SPEAKER_01 2:01

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's a very big open warehouse. And I wanted to activate the space. It had really high ceilings. It's very open. It's a bit breezy in there. Yeah. And I wanted to get a lot of height because there was an opportunity to create an artwork to fill up that space. And it's not that often that you get a chance to do that. And so I just go, yeah, I'm going to create an artwork in a very quick turnaround time that is three meters, two and a half meters.

SPEAKER_00 2:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:30

It was ambitious. But I think it worked out quite well.

SPEAKER_00 2:34

You've certainly achieved that. Awesome. So tell me, uh, what made you choose firstly the paper? It was spoken about the fragility of the paper that you use is translucent paper. Yeah. And talk me through the stitching and the work that went into it because it just fascinates me why you went to such lengths to create this piece.

SPEAKER_01 2:55

I could always go to lengths to create a piece. I almost put myself on the line. Yeah. And there were tears uh while I was making it. At two o'clock in the morning, it was due to hang out of it and I'm still stitching away.

SPEAKER_00 3:10

Yeah, stitching. Oh my gosh. So much work. You can see that it's all hand stitched, all up around there. That's amazing.

SPEAKER_01 3:20

When it's hanging like that, I look at it and go, oh, that's simple. What would be your problem? Why would they tease gens? I mean, come on. But like when you actually get it down and it's in front of you, it's actually a very big piece of paper. And then to try and get the needle through the paper and pull it through and stitch it.

SPEAKER_00 3:33

Without tearing?

SPEAKER_01 3:34

Without tearing was really tricky. And so the part that caused teas is that there was a tear. Tiz and tears. Coincidentally.

SPEAKER_00 3:42

Tiz tear. So what made you stitch in the first place? What was the betting decision-making process for that?

SPEAKER_01 3:50

I like the idea of wearing a costume, or I like the idea of not being hemmed in or feeling static. I feel that you've always got the opportunity to experience new things and change characters if you want to get out there and experiment like with different approaches. And so I wanted a pair of wings. I think it seems like a good idea. Because you never I actually wanted a pair of wings.

SPEAKER_00 4:12

I knew it. Oh, I knew that about you.

SPEAKER_01 4:13

I knew everything pair of wings. How could that be to fly? I'd love to be able to fly.

SPEAKER_00 4:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:18

So I wanted a pair of wings, and I thought I'd just throw myself some. And I chose a hummingbird because I looked at the rotation of a hummingbird's wing when it hovers.

SPEAKER_00 4:28

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 4:28

That can move in any direction. That was the premise of choosing hummingbirds. I initially drew the rotation of the wings as it hovers. I had a scientific breakdown of that McDonald's.

SPEAKER_00 4:38

Scientific, interesting.

SPEAKER_01 4:39

Well, scientific. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:42

Science as opposed to art, I find it interesting that you use that word.

SPEAKER_01 4:45

Scientific.

SPEAKER_00 4:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:46

Well, I think it's nature. Nature is so interesting, you don't need to reinvent the will.

SPEAKER_00 4:50

Yeah, but that cross-section of science meaning art.

SPEAKER_01 4:54

Well, I'm not that smart in regards to I wouldn't be able to draw.

SPEAKER_00 4:57

Don't say yourself short, James. Sorry. You're plenty smart.

unknown 5:01

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 5:01

But I mean in regards to I don't know the I didn't know the trajectory of a hummingbird's wing. I could make something up from my head, but science is always going to be more interesting, or nature, or what's in front of me will always be more interesting as a start before you go somewhere else.

SPEAKER_00 5:16

But wouldn't you say both scientists and artists are keen observers? And you are you're creating from what you observe.

SPEAKER_01 5:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:26

I find that interesting too.

SPEAKER_01 5:27

That they're both observing.

SPEAKER_00 5:28

Yeah, absolutely. And tell me, the the choice of the translucent paper. Tell me about that.

SPEAKER_01 5:34

I like the tracing paper. I want it translucent because I didn't want to be able to see the structure holding up the drawing. I wanted the drawing to hold up itself. And so that's the best I can do is to have tracing paper that is kind of there, but it's not there. But there is also the fragility of the wings. The idea of wearing wings means that you want to move or you want to hover or you want to fly somewhere. There's a fleeting thought. But sometimes it's quite tricky to pivot in a different direction. And so the paper itself is quite fragile. So there's the initial representational idea of set of wings, and then you're looking at a bigger conceptual idea of human nature. Those big decisions, those life-changing decisions, require effort, and it's not going to be an easy ride. There's going to be ups in the road when you're wanting to change direction. And the tracing paper has the ability to show that because there's actually also a lot of tears in the paper.

SPEAKER_00 6:27

And tears.

SPEAKER_01 6:28

And tears. There's tears and tears. It's just like so there's like life experiences, or you know, or not, it's not all about Nick, but I'm just saying in general, like when you've got to make those big decisions, it's tricky. You might need a pair of wings.

SPEAKER_00 6:41

Don't we all need a pair of wings?

SPEAKER_01 6:42

We all get a very much superman style.

SPEAKER_00 6:46

Yeah, that's funny. So all that from your choice of material. There's so much thought that goes into even just that simple choice. Yeah. Yeah. Listening to you talk about your choice of material and what it means to you and what you're trying to communicate to people that are observing your art, that it blows me away.

SPEAKER_01 7:06

Oh, the details.

SPEAKER_00 7:07

The detail. I look at it and I see paper.

SPEAKER_01 7:09

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 7:10

Right. But for you, there's this huge thought process and decision making that goes into something as simple as that. So I find that interesting.

SPEAKER_01 7:20

Interesting in what ways then. Hey, that's interesting. I'm like, why would you waste your time doing that?

SPEAKER_00 7:24

No, no, I find it interesting because I'm trying to understand the artistic mind.

SPEAKER_01 7:27

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00 7:28

And it's it's alien to me.

SPEAKER_01 7:30

I don't know if it is though, because saying before, science is in observation.

SPEAKER_00 7:33

Yeah, you'll observe it, but it's different to create it. And that's what I don't understand. The need to create is not something that I feel the need to do.

SPEAKER_01 7:42

I think the creation is just an investigative process.

SPEAKER_00 7:45

Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 7:46

Yeah. You might set up an experiment. Anyhow. You know, you'd set up an experience, an artist would just say, Oh, I'll just make something like that.

SPEAKER_00 7:57

I like observing, I like picking apart, asking questions, I like dissecting dissecting things and trying to nut out why. Why is a very important question. But I think you're doing the same thing, but you're just trying to communicate.

SPEAKER_01 8:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:14

But it's that whole thing where it's steeped in reality, but then it goes into fiction for me. There's a trick to where I start, and then I go, well, they're quiet. You actually call their wings. And then what they achieve for me might be different for what someone else sees in them.

SPEAKER_00 8:32

Now I'm really curious. Tell me more.

SPEAKER_01 8:36

The process of me making is different. Like once I've made the work, yeah. I don't I we can only talk about it as of from an observational perspective because I won't remember exactly what I was thinking. I probably can find notes, and on my pinboard, you can see there's bits and bobs from the actual process of making these different types of stitches.

SPEAKER_00 8:55

Yeah, there's notes here, right?

SPEAKER_01 8:56

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:57

We do have some notes in front of us. I found that really curious too. Yeah, you've spent time, you had a specific vision in your mind.

SPEAKER_01 9:05

And did actually work out pretty good.

SPEAKER_00 9:07

Yeah. Dare I say biblical, even though it's not meant to be. But the scope of it, it's huge. It has such a presence and it just overwhelms the space, which I think is great. I love it.

SPEAKER_01 9:22

Yeah, I like that they're big and they have a presence, but they don't take up too much space. They take up the right amount of space.

SPEAKER_00 9:27

I didn't mean those are negative. It wasn't negative at all. I, you know, I I walk in and boom, it's there. You know, love that.

SPEAKER_01 9:35

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:36

It wasn't a negative comment at all. I I love this piece. I think it's amazing. Tell me about the tears too. The tears and the tears.

SPEAKER_01 9:43

The tears and the tears. Yeah. Oh my goodness, the tears and the tears.

SPEAKER_00 9:47

I think it's important.

SPEAKER_01 9:49

My body's on the line.

SPEAKER_00 9:51

Your body's on the line. No, no, I'll make it.

SPEAKER_01 9:53

My body was on the line and I was making it. Like it's like coming through all the emotions, all the feelings.

SPEAKER_00 9:58

But you mean you're on a ladder and you're gonna fall off or something.

SPEAKER_01 10:00

Well, it's possible, but no.

SPEAKER_00 10:02

All right. When you invest yourself in peace of this magnitude, yeah, it's all or nothing, right?

SPEAKER_01 10:09

I think so, because from what you're saying, it's actually done its job. Because if I can invest myself in the consideration of materials, the type of stitch or the type of material that I use for the stitch, or the way in which it's hung up on the ceiling, there's certain parts of why I've chosen to hang it that way. All of those elements, if they'd not been considered, they wouldn't resonate as loudly as they do to you.

SPEAKER_00 10:29

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 10:30

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 10:31

I come in and look at this and think, awesome. I see the skill, I see the time spent, I see a talented artist at work and has spent many, many, many hours creating this piece.

SPEAKER_01 10:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:44

As opposed to a banana duct tape for the wall.

SPEAKER_01 10:47

But that is so many hours.

SPEAKER_00 10:48

You can't compare it for me. All right.

SPEAKER_01 10:50

This well, thank you for putting me into the same banner as Maurizio Catalan. That's very kind of you.

SPEAKER_00 10:55

But I reckon this is better than the banana duct tape for the wall. No, there'd be millions of people out there that would absolutely agree with me.

SPEAKER_01 11:03

No, but like this hasn't made it onto The Simpsons. The banana duct tape to the wall is brilliant. That is absolute conceptual brilliance. You've got to be happy with that. To be so simple.

SPEAKER_00 11:14

To each their own.

SPEAKER_01 11:18

Well, how cool is that to think about it as artists, right? You look at the world and you grab something and he he just hit the zeitgeist. It was such a great composition.

SPEAKER_00 11:26

Oh, it was popular, there's no doubt about it. It was amazing. People were interested in it.

SPEAKER_01 11:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:30

But for me personally, I prefer this sort of stuff. And I think that's fair enough. You know, with art, yeah. It's in the eye of the beholder.

SPEAKER_01 11:37

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:38

And this is the stuff I like. I like to be fascinated. I like to ask questions about or think about what the artist was trying to achieve and why. That fascinates me. And I like to stand there and think about that, look at that. That's interesting.

SPEAKER_01 11:52

To go back to the banana and the duct tape. That's let's. Let's, because sorry, we'll always go back to that.

SPEAKER_00 11:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:59

Because it's concept is material. That artist is using the concept, and that is their material. Whereas I like the tradition of drawing. It makes sense to me. And that's my preferred language. The work that I create. There's always a strong concept behind it, but I do like the material nature of the charcoal and paper and creating a drawing. I like the history of that traditional part of drawing.

SPEAKER_00 12:18

I'm with you, James. All right. Let's quickly just touch on this other piece here.

SPEAKER_01 12:24

We're going from the wings to the digital work.

SPEAKER_00 12:26

I reckon.

SPEAKER_01 12:27

So you're going from a very big charcoal drawing, three metres by two metres, to a printed piece. Is it Serena Paul?

SPEAKER_00 12:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:33

It was painted on SAP.

SPEAKER_00 12:36

Oh, cool.

unknown 12:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:37

Yep. Someone you know? No.

SPEAKER_01 12:39

No. I've got an app called Procreate, which is one of my favourite apps, and I've been working on that for years. But it's very useful to pick that out and start drawing on a digital tablet. That's one of my favorite pieces because structurally and compositionally, it's very tight. Colour wise, it's alluring.

SPEAKER_00 12:54

Sorry, can you explain? What do you mean by tight?

SPEAKER_01 12:57

Well, when you look at that work, do you stay with the work a long time? Or is it a quick glance?

SPEAKER_00 13:04

When I first look at that piece, I immediately go past the swimmer and I'm drawn to the space, the water behind the swimmer, and then slowly I start to come back down. Come back out.

SPEAKER_01 13:18

Yeah, so you don't actually just go out.

SPEAKER_00 13:20

No.

SPEAKER_01 13:20

You spend time looking around the artwork.

SPEAKER_00 13:23

And I should add that we actually have this print hanging up on our wall as well. So I do like this print.

SPEAKER_01 13:30

I forgot that you bought that piece. Yeah, yeah. And that's so beautiful, isn't it? That you've actually got one of the pieces.

SPEAKER_00 13:35

Yeah, well, we've got several of your pieces. You have your big collector. I know all is.

SPEAKER_01 13:40

But what would you like to talk about the digital print? I painted it from observation on site.

SPEAKER_00 13:44

Yeah. And what how does that differ from, say, drawing or painting using that?

SPEAKER_01 13:49

Oh, using a big digital media pieces and physical oil patches.

SPEAKER_00 13:53

Does that change the creative process for you?

SPEAKER_01 13:55

For me, I like working with charcoal because I can work very fast, because I can understand. I love your charcoal. And then with colour, I've got to consider temperature. And that slows my thought process down. I can't get the information out quick enough.

SPEAKER_00 14:08

Oh, I see.

SPEAKER_01 14:08

Because you've got to consider colour against colour.

SPEAKER_00 14:11

It will dry too quickly. Is that no?

SPEAKER_01 14:13

You've actually just got to consider mixing the right colour and putting it on the canvas, and it's a more in-depth process. I can do it, but it takes a lot more time. And so with the what do you mean by temperature exactly? So with colour.

SPEAKER_00 14:26

I'll just assume you meant it will dry too quickly, and you need to use the paint. And that's what I thought you meant.

SPEAKER_01 14:32

No.

SPEAKER_00 14:33

That's interesting.

SPEAKER_01 14:34

So when you're working with colour in art, is it cool and warm colours? On the colour wheel, there's yellow, red, and blue.

SPEAKER_00 14:42

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:42

And then the cool colours are blues, like blue through to before it hits red. Or then the warmer colours are the yellows and the reds. And so that's the temperatures thing. And so what happens is that the blues or the cooler colours will recede. So they will go back in space when placed on the canvas. And then the warmer colours will come forward. When you're wanting to create a painting, if you put a red in the background, you need to consider that it has to be a cool red, it has to be associated more to the blue side of things. Because if you put yellows in it, it's going to punch forward, a colour will project boldly from the canvas and it's not going to sit in space.

SPEAKER_00 15:20

Interesting. So I had no idea that's what you meant by temperature. I had no idea. So this is why I ask questions.

SPEAKER_01 15:27

I have maybe asked questions. I do I need to ask more questions, but um, you're asking me questions right now, so you can't I'm playing the devil's adaptation. Oh no, we both can't ask questions. No, that's great. My drawing is always gonna be my go-to because it's very quick, it's very immediate, it's out of my head, straight onto the paper. It's the quickest way to read someone's mind, read their drawings. Whereas if you're painting outdoors, you've got to spend time mixing the right colours to sit in the correct space on the canvas.

SPEAKER_00 15:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:58

I couldn't be bothered taking my paints to the pool. Fair enough. How good is technology? I can actually get the colours that I'm seeking on a digital tablet. And it is still very tactile. I'm drawing with my fingers or painting with my fingers, but without the mess or bulkiness of lugging around a set of oil paints. But the digital prints that I've printed out that people can buy. Some of my favourite works because they're painted on site. And I think most of my works have to have that resonance about them. They visually grab people when I saw my work at the markets. People stop in their tracks and say, Oh, that caught my attention. Why? And it's because the energy of the place is caught in the artwork through the mic making. I have a lot of works from Folk's Creek at the lawn or at the pool. They're all places I love.

SPEAKER_00 16:43

Oh yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 16:44

And then that energy attaches itself to the work.

SPEAKER_00 16:47

It's fascinating, Charles. See? Hold them. That's why I ask you things.

SPEAKER_01 16:51

Do people do that often? Don't people just say, I'm gonna draw that place?

SPEAKER_00 16:58

It's why we're here, this is what we're doing. We're trying to figure out life, uh, figure out what's important to people and why they do things. It's a truth.

SPEAKER_01 17:06

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not important to me. But hey, look, that's us. I think we're almost done, Sandy.

SPEAKER_00 17:10

Yeah? Well, you reckon, let's go get some food.

SPEAKER_01 17:13

Let's go get lunch.

SPEAKER_00 17:14

Let's go. Let's go get lunch.

SPEAKER_01 17:16

Okay. Thanks for listening to Creative Conversations. Today we explore transformation, observation, and the human desire to imagine ourselves becoming something more than we are. Whether through art, science, or everyday life. Perhaps we're all looking for our own favorite pair of words. If you enjoyed the conversation, follow the podcast.