Jen Shoop: From Blog to Book

This week, Nan sits down with Jen Shoop, the writer behind the beloved blog ‘Magpie by Jen Shoop’ and author of the new book, Small Wonders. After more than a decade of writing online, Jen shares how a consistent writing practice grew into a devoted community of readers. Tune in to hear how her blog became a book, her thoughtful advice for slowing down, and living where your feet are.

Find links to everything mentioned on our Substack: https://nanphilip.substack.com/t/noteworthy-with-nan-podcast

Stay tuned for more Noteworthy with Nan episodes every Thursday!!

Timestamps

00:00 Introducing Jen Shoop

03:49 The Magpie Blog

08:04 Writing Her First Book, Small Wonders

15:03 Planning a Book Tour

24:56 A Day in Jen’s Life / Daily Writing Practice

27:16 Influencer Affiliate Links and Substack

39:49 Authors Jen Loves (Mary Oliver, Sally Rooney + more) 

53:49 Jen's Three Noteworthy Tips

Follow Jen:

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/magpiebyjenshoop

Magpie By Jen Shoop (blog): https://magpiebyjenshoop.com/

Small Wonders Book: https://magpiebyjenshoop.com/order-small-wonders-field-guide-quiet-joys-book/

Follow Nan:

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/nan.philip/

TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@nan_philip

Follow the podcast:

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/noteworthywithnan/

TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@noteworthywithnan

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@NoteworthyWithNan

Credits:

Host: Nan Philip

Executive Producer: Julia Aubuchon

Technical Director: Drew Downing

Guest: Jen Shoop

Transcript

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SPEAKER_00 0:06

Hi everyone, welcome back to Noteworthy with Nan. Today I'm here with my friend Jen Shoop, and I'm so excited to chat with her. We already were sort of going at it, talking about the books that we like, and we are forcing ourselves to stop so we can hit record and dive into everything. Jen, thanks for being here. Thank you, Nan. I'm so excited. Jen is a star. She came all the way from Bethesda, so she traveled up to New York to record with me in person. Before we dive into all the stuff we have to discuss, will you give us a little elevator pitch on who you are and all the details of what you do?

SPEAKER_02 0:36

Absolutely. So I'm Jen Shoop. I'm the founder and author of Magpie by Jen Shoop, which is a daily literary lifestyle blog that I've been writing for over a decade. I can't believe that. And I recently published my first book called Small Wonders. Watch on YouTube.

SPEAKER_00 0:54

We have the book here. I have marked up all the pages. I don't know if you're the type, but I'm the type that like underlines the 100%. So I've been doing all of that as I've read through it, and I can't wait to chat about it. Thank you. It's a fabulous book. We will link to it. I just can't wait to dive into all the details of that. Sorry I interrupted you.

SPEAKER_02 1:11

You're also a mom. I'm a mom. I have two children, and I have a wonderful husband who's like makes my whole world go round. You guys seem so cute. I feel like you are, as I'm single, couple goals. How did you meet? We met right before I was going off to UVA. Okay. He was already there. Oh. A mature second year. Older man. He seemed to me like an older gentleman. Love. Um now I look back and he was a baby. He was, you know, 20. Yeah, he knew nothing either. Neither. It was like the blind leading the blind. Um and so we met at a high school graduation party. And have basically been together since.

SPEAKER_00 1:48

I I love I really admire both of you. I think it, I mean, who knows anyone's marriage from the outside, but I love the way you talk about him and you seem like a very good duo. Like when I was at your book signing and he was there taking photos and so proud of you. You just, it's very sweet.

SPEAKER_02 2:01

No, he makes it easy. He's incredible. Oh, that's so nice.

SPEAKER_00 2:05

Um, okay, I sort of interrupted you, but I think we got all the main facet. I think you got everything. We will learn more as we dive in. Um, I'm so excited to chat about your book. How did it all come to be? I mean, I have been, I was thinking back of how long we've known each other. I think like probably eight plus years.

SPEAKER_02 2:22

I think so.

SPEAKER_00 2:23

I was thinking of my first job when I worked at Blitzer and Company, a PR job in New York, and Liza, Joya, who I sat next to, loved your blog. I meant to text her this morning and see if she still reads it, because I bet she does. But she used to, we used to try to, you know, see what everyone was doing, know the blogs that were happening and what was going on. But you sort of, I mean, sometimes when you're a publicist, you're scanning, you're not really reading everything. And she introduced me to your blog and she's like, this is the one that I always make sure I read.

SPEAKER_02 2:50

Oh my gosh, Nan. That's so I have to connect with. I feel like I need to write her at the point.

SPEAKER_00 2:55

I'm shaking the connection between us two. I'm sure you met her years ago when we were both at Blitzer, but now plug Liza, she's great. She's an interior designer in Florida and has two kids and living a whole different life. But I just she really made me stop and think about your blog because what Jen, I think what you do so well is you're a beautiful writer. And so it's different than a lot of the other blogs we see on the internet. That's you give us all the good shopping links too. You have amazing taste, but you also just have a way with words that it really sort of takes you out of your busy day. And I feel like I can read your blog and be like, oh, I can enjoy my coffee a little bit more or pay attention to the flowers I see outside. You sort of have such a nice way of celebrating the world that we live in and the moment in time. And so it's so fun to see that in book form. And so I know some of these details, but will you tell everyone how the blog sort of started and then how that got to publishing a book?

SPEAKER_02 3:48

It's a long story, so I'll try to keep it concise. But I started it as a passion project, the blog. Um, it was originally called the Fashion Magpie, and it was much more fashion and shopping. I think I sort of remember that.

SPEAKER_01 4:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:01

I want to interrupt you because one of my questions, magpie. I of course had to go Google to just be sure. I'm like, okay, I know this is a bird, but what's the story here? So how did you land on magpie?

SPEAKER_02 4:11

So it's a bird that's attracted to shiny objects or shiny like litter, tinsel, whatever it sees on the ground. Um, and so that was the initial idea. It was a good avatar for finding, curating. But I've since found that magpies are also really resilient birds, which I love that as a personal avatar. I'm sure you agree, Nan, but if you've been in entrepreneurship for as long as we have, you have to be adaptable. So I feel like it's uh yeah, an avatar that's grown with me in certain ways.

SPEAKER_00 4:38

But Google also told me that um magpies are considered to be intelligent creatures. And I was like, that fits Jen. I totally see that. So I like that. Maybe you didn't even know that, but that's what Google told me when I was looking. Thank you, Google. So you started more sort of fashion-y, and then how did you sort of get into? I mean, some days you'll go on Jen's blog and it's just a sort of what do you call your poems? Do you call them poems?

SPEAKER_02 5:00

Poetry or creative nonfiction, memoir type essays, musings. Yeah. Um well, I just noticed once I started writing a little bit more intimately about my daily life, is when I started to get a strong response from my readers. Um and I've always loved to write. I've needed to write. Like I, since I was little, since I was six, I had to sort of process my day through language. Um, and so I was like, wait, people are interested in what I have to say, so I'm gonna do more of this. Um, and then it's interesting as I started leaning more into that, I started growing the business a lot more, the affiliate side of the business, which enables me to be a working writer, which is fantastic. Um, and so I've been writing for a long time, every single day on my blog. Um and I had been hoping, actually, I don't know if we've talked about this, but I've been writing a fictional manuscript for several years now. I don't know if I knew that. It's a literary romance. Okay. And I put on my New Year's bingo card.

SPEAKER_00 6:01

Like, do you do bingo cards instead of I don't, but this year we were mentioning it in another episode. I kept calling it in the episode a mood board, but I guess it was more of like a manifestation board. Oh, I love that idea. I feel like that was sort of all over Instagram this you know, new year of everyone being like, I mean, people I feel like used to cut out from magazines and make the sort of mood board of what they wanted for the year, but I kept seeing girls saying, like, you could also just do this on Canva. Like, take the images you save on Instagram and put it into a Canva board. I'm gonna go. So I did that and I didn't share it or post it anywhere, but I just pulled together all these images I liked and made one big board, and then I took a screenshot of it, and I have it on my desktop, and I have a picture of it saved in my phone. So sometimes I just like open it and see if what's happening, and a few things have happened. The podcast was on it. Oh my gosh, that's so similar but different. And I'm pretty visual, so actually, maybe it makes sense for me to have more of a visual thing than something written down. But tell us about the bingo card.

SPEAKER_02 6:53

No, I love that idea. I think just pointing yourself in those directions, however, you need it to be. If it's visual, it's a list, whatever, a bingo card. Um, but I put on my bingo card, this was, I guess, not this year, but a year ago. Year, whatever. Yeah, yeah, you get what I'm saying. Um, that I wanted to query for an agent for this fictional project. And that's in one of those ways that I feel like my whole all the life lessons I have are like live where your feet are. Yeah. So I was over here chasing this thing I'd never done before, and then an acquisitions editor approached me and said, Have you ever thought about writing a book? And I was like, I have. I am. But she was interested in more of what I've become known for on my blog, which made complete sense. And I hadn't really thought about that.

SPEAKER_00 7:38

It's so funny how an outsider's perspective can really point you in the direction you're already going. Oh my gosh. Oh, right. I was doing that. I mean, that's sort of like the podcast for me. Like, I love talking to people, talking to my friends, hearing about their businesses. So why not take that the next step? But you sometimes need help getting there.

SPEAKER_01 7:54

Someone giving you that nudge. Yeah. I know. I'm so glad you're doing this, by the way.

SPEAKER_02 7:58

It's a perfect fit for you.

SPEAKER_01 7:59

So the at so I love that because I've one of my questions for you was how did you get an editor?

SPEAKER_00 8:03

How did it all come to be?

SPEAKER_02 8:04

So someone approached you. Someone approached me, and this doesn't happen in the fictional space, but in nonfiction and poetry and science, yeah. Um, acquisitions editors can approach you and say, I think you have the bones of a possible book. Like put together a proposal, which I did with her consult. She was amazing. Okay. She really helped. We went through a couple iterations of what it could be. Um, and then yeah, I signed and she gave me. I mean, I love her, Nicole, if you're listening to the channel. She was at your signing and I went to, right? Yeah. She's so amazing. She's so fun. I I just I consider her a friend at this point. But um, you know, we had a very compressed timeline. Like, I think I signed the contract in February and I completed the manuscript in June. Oh, that is so tight. Okay, wow.

SPEAKER_00 8:47

So and I was even saying to Drew, I was like, he was like, Did she write it from scratch?

SPEAKER_02 8:50

How did it all come to be? And you pulled some things from your blog, right? I did. And so she said I could the publisher was fantastic. They said I could draw from my archives considerably. However, I ended up touching absolutely everything. I'm sure ripping it apart, sometimes putting it back together. So it ended up, it was a really fun but challenging, rigorous process. I mean, to go back to your work after a time and be like, do I still like this? I mean, that is hard in itself. And I think having the like ability to have the scope, which is probably something that you're cultivating too, of like making sure the individual podcasts speak, have a conversation with one another, have some kind of through your narrative.

SPEAKER_00 9:32

So I have two people mainly who help me, Drew, who's here doing our tech, and then this gal, Julia, who's sort of more of a producer brain and helps me with the big picture. And sometimes she has been, she's like, Nan, let's get back to the point, the main point here. Should we circle back to your thesis statement? Of like, I really love to hear about someone's day, what they're going through right now, or all these things. But then, of course, I end up sitting in this chair and I'm like, wait, tell me that story about five years ago, and we just get a little bit lost, which I think is fun to listen to, but it is helpful to be like, wait, wait, wait, we want to talk about the here and now.

SPEAKER_02 10:02

Right. Let me take the big step back and see how this works in conversation. So similarly, I'm like, yeah, okay, it is good to have guardrails a little bit. Yes. And so that was a new skill for me because I am used to just publishing in discrete whatever I want to write about this morning.

SPEAKER_00 10:16

And this was asked, okay, think about the overall structure, group things, make sure that I'm not using you sort of had things grouped in different sections, like there was a whole section on nature, I feel like. Then there's family, motherhood. I mean, I really, and so that must have been fun too, to sort of put together the different groupings.

SPEAKER_02 10:34

It was really fun. And um, it also taught me that I overuse certain words. Oh, interesting. Like I had to go back and oh no, I've used that too much.

SPEAKER_00 10:43

You know, I'm sure we all do that. This podcast has taught me that I say like too often. We are working on it. I know everyone does, but when you have to listen back to yourself to do the edits, to make the clips, I mean, the amount of times I have to watch myself make a mistake, hopefully I'll learn in time.

unknown 10:59

No.

SPEAKER_00 11:00

Well, you seem very polished today.

SPEAKER_02 11:01

I haven't heard a single like come on.

SPEAKER_00 11:03

Oh, I'm sure it's there, but hopefully that hopefully it will stay that way. Okay, so you found your editor, and then she must have known the process of finding the publisher. Did you have to do a lot of sort of bidding and things like that?

SPEAKER_02 11:12

No, so I this was unagented. So the editor is within the side. Oh, it was published. Sure. Yes. Um and so I didn't have to do the querying process. Um, and so when I get to the phase of actually working on this fictional manuscript, I will have to look at that scary process, which is so But maybe do you know some? I feel like you definitely know more than you did a year ago, right? And I hope it will help that I have a published book that that might make it. Sure it will. But it's such a um like collagenous process. Like, no, everyone's path seems to be slightly different. Okay. So I don't know, we'll see.

SPEAKER_00 11:47

Yeah. I mean, that's it reminds me, I'm sure it's such a different version of it. But the way that sort of the influencer world, like, yes, you have other friends who are influencers, but you're kind of you're really doing it on your own. 100%. Figuring out how it works, you have your own data, your own thing, and then you're like, I hope this gets me somewhere.

SPEAKER_02 12:02

Right, I know. I everyone has their own little path. Yeah. And for a long time I thought it was people were gatekeeping, but I think it really is that Byzantine. Like, people have different directions, go different directions.

SPEAKER_00 12:13

I just think it's like the way I do something, I could tell you exactly how to do it, but you your outcome would still look a little bit different because it's gonna have your take on it or something. So you do it really quickly. It's June, you've compiled everything. And then when did the book it's came out?

SPEAKER_02 12:27

It came out in April. Okay. Um, so yeah, once I had the manuscript in, then we went through developmental edits, we went through copy edits, we which was a whole I've never worked with editors. I feel like that must have been so interesting. They made it so much better.

SPEAKER_00 12:40

Oh, interesting.

SPEAKER_02 12:41

Okay, because I feel like it almost feel I was like worried for you that they'd chip away at your soul a little bit. The only disputes I can remember were over words. Like I'm very specific with words. Um, and so sometimes they'd be like, this is such an obscure term. Can you find something a little more accessible? And I'd be like, no. No, this is what I'm saying. I draw the line. Yeah, good. Um, but um overall they were so incredible. They made the writing so much stronger, punchier. They taught me where what I was overusing. I mean, it was Oh, I love hearing that.

SPEAKER_00 13:10

Oh, yeah. I mean, that's also nice because I do think you sort of get to a different age and you don't learn the same way or you don't have helpful criticism and feedback. So to have that and gain something from the experience.

SPEAKER_02 13:21

And I think I'm jealous. No, and I actually think I keep saying that the la my every moment of my life has led me to this exact point, like rehearsed me for this point. But I think publishing daily and failing publicly constantly gave me this great ability to be take on board whatever the feedback was. I was like, you guys are the experts, you know. I'm gonna learn from that's a skill. So it is a skill to learn how to fail and to accept, take that kind of criticism on board. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:49

Oh, okay, amazing. So then you do all of that. I love the image for the cover. Will you tell us about that? And also throughout the book, there's a few images, and I wasn't sure if they're yours or did you have a photographer? They're all sort of nature.

SPEAKER_02 14:00

I know, I'm obsessed with them. Um, these were not, these are not my photos, and the cover art is not mine. The cover art is Cosmos, which are a beautiful flower. But I have to say, my publisher called Rock Point, Quarto, an imprint of Rock Point. Okay. They um are a very design first, design forward. They do a lot of coffee table books, illustrated books, poetry volumes that have beautiful illustrations. So that was why I knew when we were talking, I was like, this is great, because on my blog I often pair my musings with really dreamy photography. I mean, this feels like you.

SPEAKER_00 14:35

That's why I sort of thought that you might they might have been your photos. I could have, I'm sure, found that in the book. But um, the whole branding of all of it feels like I'm reading your blog.

SPEAKER_02 14:43

I'm so glad. And I love the blue pages. And I mean, we spent a lot of I mean, I should say the the publishers did an incredible job with it, but I was really happy to.

SPEAKER_00 14:52

It's yours, it's beautiful. And so it came out in April. Yes. So we're a few months past that. How was the craziness of a book tour and being a published author? What was it like?

SPEAKER_02 15:02

Amazing. I mean, I the energy, you were at the New York one. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 15:07

She had a lovely event at Ann Mashburn in New York, and it was packed to the brim, and it was just so fun and exciting.

SPEAKER_02 15:12

It was so fun. And the energy that my I call my readers magpies that that the magpies brought to these rooms was so moving to me. Sometimes I actually feel that the book was sort of the path to have these events to like meet my readers and like connect with them.

SPEAKER_00 15:28

I'm a little jealous of that, and I have been thinking like for the podcast, could we do it in a way? Where can we bring our little community together? Because I love like my girls on the internet. I feel like we're this little corner that I'm so grateful for.

SPEAKER_01 15:40

You do. So it would do they have a name? No. And I want a name. I would everyone brainstorm.

SPEAKER_00 15:47

I feel like, especially now with noteworthy with Nan, we could someone told me something funny, but that was a good, snappy, could have been a title for Nan, and I can't remember what it was. Shoot, I wish it's at the tip of my tongue. It was something like somewhat negative, but in a fun, catchy way.

SPEAKER_02 16:04

I love it.

SPEAKER_00 16:05

I don't know, but everyone brainstorm if anyone has something, because I do want like a name for my crew, my people.

SPEAKER_02 16:10

They need a name.

SPEAKER_00 16:11

Yeah. Um, but your magpies are great, and you have a very loyal following, I feel like. Anyone I know who talks who I talk to, like Liza, who's a fan of yours, like is a fan for life and is really in it with you. And I think I would suspect some of that too, is like you are vulnerable with your audience. You're really honest in your writing, and I think having the courage to do that and putting that on the internet makes anyone sort of, you know, you can you really feel like you know someone quickly through that.

SPEAKER_02 16:37

Well, and I know them too at this point. Like, I've been writing for so long and con you know, interacting with them. I'm gonna go to the show. You have a good comment section. Yeah, the comment section is a gold mine. If you don't care about my writing, but read the comments. There's so many incredibly wise women that are just sharing incredibly helpful information or thoughts, or I'm in this with you, this is what I did. Even just the other day. I mean, my daughter's getting to like a certain age and talking about just motherhood stuff and where to where to get the I was reading, was it your daughter or your son?

SPEAKER_00 17:11

Someone's switching schools this year at the like this was their last year at a certain school, and you mentioned that in a recent post. And I'm like, oh, that is a change in nerve wracking for the parent and the child. And I just love that you can share that so that someone else who's going through it can be like, oh, she's with me, we're in this together.

SPEAKER_02 17:25

100%. And I think, yeah, about that situation too, that's been a new mantra for me is instead of approaching things with a sense of expectation, trying to go in with curiosity. Oh, I love that. That was a big thing that we then talked about, the magpies and I online about even in these moments of transition and parenthood and life, of and for even something seemingly as frivolous as my son is switching schools to come at it with like, well, let me be curious. Like let me go in with an open mind and not be immediately like, oh, I'm sad, I miss this, or this is changing.

SPEAKER_00 17:58

I go into everything anxious, and I definitely go into most things where my natural tendency is to be very fearful of anything new. I hate change, and I do try to I try to tell myself it could always be better than you think, like it could be great, but the curiosity angle is a fun one.

SPEAKER_02 18:13

Right, because it gives you space to say, Well, I may hate it. Right. But I sort of force myself being like, man, you're gonna love it. You're gonna be yeah, and that might be a stress. Yeah, I know. That's powerful. The other good one for me with like social anxieties is if I'm going into an event where I'm nervous. This is from a magpie reader, by the way. Yeah, okay. To try to reframe it as an opportunity to show up for someone else that's gonna be there. So, like, I'm not gonna go in and be nervous of something to be a wallflower. I'm gonna go in and try to make someone else's experience a little bit easier. I'm gonna go out of my way to make conversation with someone who's by themselves, whatever it is.

SPEAKER_00 18:49

Oh, that's such a good way of reframing it. And also sort of it just takes the pressure off you. Yeah, makes it about someone else. Or like if I was walking, I get always a little anxious going into any event, like to your book signing event. I could that could sort of fall into like, I'm going to support Jen. Yeah, I'm excited for her. I'm gonna go up to her and give her a hug. And if that's all I do, great.

SPEAKER_02 19:06

I love, yeah, that's exactly the energy. And then it sort of just takes it all off my shoulders. I know. And for me, it's like get sometimes I just need to dissolve my ego a little bit and be like, I'm not that important. This event is not about me. Yeah, this is about someone else.

SPEAKER_00 19:18

I in here somewhere, I think one of your things was saying, like, no one is thinking about you as much as you are. Oh, yeah. Which is such a good reminder. Like, no one, I feel like I will lay in bed and remember some weird thing I said 11 years ago. Me too. And the other person does not remember that conversation at all. But you just get wrapped up in yourself.

SPEAKER_02 19:37

A hundred percent.

SPEAKER_00 19:38

There's no other way. Um, now that the book is out, how does it sort of work? I really don't, I'm sure I know some other authors, but I don't really know the book world. Like I know you go on a tour, you have events if you can, but did your publishers help you with that? Did you really manage that on your own? And then what happens once the book tour is over? Do sales generally sort of stop unless you're promoting it? How does that all happen?

SPEAKER_02 20:00

Yeah, well, the book tours, publishers really give you no support on.

SPEAKER_00 20:05

I guess I should say I know that a little bit from my days working at Blitzer and Co. because we'd have interior designers do books. Yes. And they they would hire us, and someone like Liza like would do every detail of the book tour. And it was really the type of thing where what you put in is what you got out.

SPEAKER_02 20:18

Exactly. It is a lot. I have so much respect for events people after putting off. It sounds so simple. I'm just gonna show up at a store and talk about my book and sign. It is so complex. Yes. You're like, which cities? Why? What time of day? What part of town? Who should be the interlocutor? Is that person available? What's the event called?

SPEAKER_01 20:37

How do you get people to walk in the door? Like people are busy. We all want to do things, but how do you get people to not cancel the day of?

SPEAKER_02 20:44

To two hours before. Oh my gosh. That and that's another piece that writing daily for a long time, I I am completely disabused of the idea that if you build it, they will come. Yeah. No, you have to be shouting it constantly.

SPEAKER_00 20:57

Tell people that. I think that is so true. Oh my gosh. Like it just, it's a lot. You're a good example. We've talked about this on other podcasts. You have to put in the reps. You have to put just keep doing the thing because you can't. We talked about it with the podcast. Like, I can't put out 10 episodes of this podcast and think that's gonna be enough.

SPEAKER_02 21:12

No.

SPEAKER_00 21:13

I need to tell everyone about it, keep talking, each new episode, everything.

SPEAKER_02 21:16

I know. And I think sometimes when you're the one who's doing all the shouting yourself, you're like, I'm so bored of hearing myself promote myself. And self-promotion is so awkward. But people have a quick time, you know, they forget or they didn't see that story, or they missed that email. The link that one time, they needed it another time. Or yeah. So I think you just have to get over that awkwardness and just yell from the rooftops as much as you can. How many book events did you generally do, do you think? So I did one in Bethesda, one in Charleston, one in New York, one in downtown, two uh extra ones in DC. So five. That's a lot. And yeah, it was fast. Um, it was intense for me. The first one was so hard for me. Emotionally, my parents were in the audience and they were I looked down, they were weeping. And oh my god, I would break down in a second if I saw my parents. Well, I did. I just cried on the I was like, I'm sorry. This is that's where it goes with the book though. It's the whole vibe. We're being honest. I know, and you know, so that was really intense but beautiful. But then it's only your first time once, right? So the next time was easier and a little less emotionally freighted. And by the end, I was I had so much fun. I'm actually thinking of doing adding some events at the end of the summer.

SPEAKER_01 22:28

You should.

SPEAKER_00 22:29

So okay, stay tuned, everyone. We'll post about it if you do, because I think people would love that. And I I really think, I mean, there's so much we could talk about the book, but one of my takeaways is this feels like the type of book that I want to buy almost like four more copies, keep it in my house, and then give it to people. You know, that there's I think there's so many different parts of this book that are really about going through different things. You know, maybe it's motherhood, but there's some things about grief and loss and really just like not being too hard on yourself. And I felt like this was the type of book, almost like a cookbook. We were just talking with Lil's McKenna earlier, and she gave me a cookbook once.

SPEAKER_02 23:04

I love that.

SPEAKER_00 23:05

And wrote in the margins about some of our favorite favorite recipes. Oh, cute. What a good one. And I was saying how that was kind of like a gift that you got twice. So first I got the book, and then when I really opened it and started using it, I'm like, wait, there's Lil's again. Like a little. That's so sweet. And I could see someone doing that with this book. Like, I feel like I could give I would thought of a few friends as I was reading through it. I was like, oh, I could see myself marking three pages and sending this to someone as a gift to help them get through a hard time or this or that, or just to have someone know that you're thinking of them and supporting them. So if any of that appeals to anyone listening, definitely just buy the book. It's sort of one of those things where I feel like you can keep it on your bookshelf, keep it on your bedside table and refer back to it at different times and take different things from it. Um, it's really beautiful.

SPEAKER_02 23:45

So sweet. I well, I hope so. I really, when I was writing it, I wanted it to feel like a soft landing. Like you could open it up and there's just some little piece of grace. Like we need more grace to give ourselves more grace.

SPEAKER_00 23:57

Truly. And to give other people more grace. I think that's also something I'm learning is like, don't be too hard on anyone else.

SPEAKER_02 24:03

Because like we're all getting through it however we can. I know something I I totally agree, and that's something I'm like consciously trying to think about. I try to ask myself that question what does it matter to me? Just let that person do that thing. Totally. Just take a step back and focus on what I can control, which is just me. Totally. I love that.

SPEAKER_00 24:25

So now that the book is out, you're back. I mean, you're right. Did you ever stop writing every day on the blog? I was still publishing. That's insane. I'm not insane. That's amazing. You're very talented. I'm very impressed by that.

SPEAKER_02 24:35

That's it's but for me, the writing is as I said earlier, like I I I don't I can't imagine like living without.

SPEAKER_00 24:43

Well, I feel like to that point, I sort of wanted to ask you about your routine and sort of a day in your life. And I I know from knowing you that writing really is part of your routine. It is. So will you walk the listeners through sort of what a day is like for you and how you make time for writing every day?

SPEAKER_02 24:56

Yes. So I treat writing like a full-time job. Like I'm usually at my desk from nine to five, working, writing. There's also other aspects, as you know, that go into running a blog.

SPEAKER_00 25:07

Yes, and I want to talk about the influencing side of it and all that, because that can take a lot of time. But how do you, you know, is it opening up Word? Is it forcing yourself to stay in that document for an hour no matter what? Or how does it, is it, does it you do you need a little more of being like, I'm in the moment, I'm feeling something happening right now?

SPEAKER_02 25:22

Yeah, I well, I call it shaking hands with the blank page. And I sit first thing I do, I sit down and I read some poetry. Like I need to do read something first before I get into a writing frame of mind. It's sort of like exercising. Yeah, your version of stretching before exercising. Okay. Um, and then I see what happens. I never write in word though. Oh word is like terrifying to me. It's like writing in a tuxedo or something. Okay, tell me more. Where do you write? I usually start hand drafting, just some like thoughts on paper.

SPEAKER_00 25:54

Oh, I didn't know this, Jen. I love that.

SPEAKER_02 25:56

I think it's about, I don't know if you feel this with podcasting or your art forms, but finding really low-stakes places to start. I think that is smart. It's really helpful because it takes some of the agita out of. I have to perform now. Absolutely. So I I find it easier to like write on like a half scrap back of a receipt, just something that feels like eh, yeah, it could be thrown away. Yeah. Um, and then usually some kernel will start to like come out, and then I'll move over to WordPress and see what and then I compose in WordPress, which is so bizarre, I know. But wait, that is crazy to me. I I shouldn't, I feel like it's really risky. I should be using Scoobener something writerly. Um, no, but but I I kind of came into my type of writing in via blogging. So it feels very low stakes to write, and that's and sort of honest to the way you do it if you do it that way.

SPEAKER_00 26:47

WordPress, I think everyone knows, but it's like sort of a back-end website builder, and it's what a lot of bloggers traditionally used to use. People don't use it as much anymore.

SPEAKER_03 26:54

Substack, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:55

Um, but you're still a WordPress girl. I know that's all. And you have a very beautiful, your blog is built out. You must have had someone customize it for you. So you have all your different sections and whatnot. So, in addition to your writing, you're doing what I'm out here doing and pulling up links, shopping, all the things. How do you sort of manage the two? I mean, you could get fully into one or the other, but I love the balance of the two.

SPEAKER_02 27:16

I love it too. I mean, I I find such joy in the fashion. I love fashion. Well, we have very similar taste. I do. So I'm always like, what is she up to? What does she find? I'm an avid Nan follower. I need to know click, click, click. Um, no, I love that side of it. And I have a lot of fun with it. I also think for me, it's such a I th I think elegant way to, you know, be a working writer. Like I'm not requiring anyone to pay a subscription for anything. I think writers should be paid, and that's what I think. I think it's amazing about Substack is it makes visible the labor that goes into writing.

SPEAKER_00 27:52

There it does feel like there's a maybe in the past few years a new level of respect for it, which is so deserved.

SPEAKER_02 27:57

I so deserved. Yeah. Um, whether you're curating links or writing some, I mean it it's all it's all time, it's all something, yeah. Um, but I I love the usually so I'll publish a musing, and then beneath there will be a couple links, but then it so if someone does not want to shop, they don't have to, no, totally. There's no pressure on your website at all.

SPEAKER_00 28:15

But someone could also come just by starting to love your style and then go the other way.

SPEAKER_02 28:19

It's a nice well, and that's what anecdotally I've heard is people came for the shopping and stayed for the writing. Okay, which I love. Yeah. Um, but I love the fashion side of things, and I spend a lot of time curating links just like you do. And I love because you have a good tight edit too.

SPEAKER_00 28:34

I feel like you're not sharing every single thing you found on Shop Bop or whatever. It's definitely the things that are your taste, your vibe, which is so in this world of so many links, I think very nice and appreciated.

SPEAKER_02 28:44

Well, I hope so. I try I do try really hard, and I often am ordering things to try them on to report back on the sizing, the fit, and I like that. Why is it so hard?

SPEAKER_00 28:55

I mean, I actually love the HUD, but it does feel like it's a good amount of work to just figure out something that actually works.

SPEAKER_02 29:00

I know. Especially things like jeans, and that's so I jeans are the words.

SPEAKER_00 29:04

I would love to. I feel like I am it's actually come up before, always buying jeans, always on the hunt for jeans, and I'm like, one day will it ever stop? Like, will I ever just feel like I have enough in the right pairs?

SPEAKER_02 29:14

I know. I don't know because I probably have, I'm not kidding. This is scary. Probably like 50 pairs of jeans or something.

SPEAKER_00 29:21

Um, thank you so much for saying that because Sarah Letterman came on an episode and told us how she had five to seven pairs.

SPEAKER_02 29:27

Heard that interview and I was shocked. And I was like, you need to teach me your ways.

SPEAKER_00 29:33

Because I do have 50 jeans and I don't like any of them on any given time. I do think, and she would say this too, that she lives in an in a New York City apartment with a husband and two girls. And so if there was someone else living in my apartment, I'd have to have less jeans too.

SPEAKER_02 29:46

So I definitely benefit from the fact that I have a lot of closet space. That's true. I know we haven't yet gotten to the one in, one out. I've had I have friends who have that rule.

SPEAKER_00 29:53

I do sort of think with our job that might be a little bit harder. It's really hard. Just like luckily for us, our job is sort of to shop and see what's out there. Yeah. That's what I tell myself. Yeah. But how have you seen, or what are your thoughts on sort of the way the influencing world is changing? Like it's definitely becoming really more common, but I think also people are getting a little fatigued by it. What do you think of all that?

SPEAKER_02 30:14

Yeah, I don't know. It's it's changing minute to minute. Yeah, it's hard to keep up. Shop my change so much. You're a Shop My Girl, right? Definitely a Shop My Girl. It was like applying a jet pack to my everyday operations. I just love everything that they're doing. I don't know, like what sorts of I I think the big changes are ShopMai and Substack. Those are the biggest.

SPEAKER_00 30:35

I and I suppose that I mean, I think your readership is probably biggest on your blog. I feel like you have such a good, dedicated. I have a bit of a bigger following on Instagram or a much bigger technical following following on Instagram than on my Substack. And the way the Instagram algorithm continues to change on a daily basis, it feels like, is tricky to figure out. And so it's just, it is hard for me when I'm like, oh, I'm so excited about this book or whatever I might be posting about this dress, and I get such less views one day on my Instagram stories compared to the next day. I just get confused. I know. And that luckily, I think for me, even though I don't love to write, led me to have my Substack, which does feel much more like these are my people. I know if I send something out, it will be available for them to find. Maybe not everyone's gonna click on the Substack or the email that gets sent out, but I know it will be available to them if they want it. Or the Instagram stories. I'm like, someone could follow me and love my content, but still not see it.

SPEAKER_02 31:29

Not see it. I know. That's really hard and tricky. And I've never been, you're so good at speaking to the camera and having video, and you've I've seen you cultivate a true skill with this. I definitely I do think I've gotten better. There's a lot of roadway to go. No, you can like anything, you do better as you practice it. Practice it. And I just can't make myself do that.

SPEAKER_00 31:51

Like I cannot you don't have to. I think we all can lean into what's working for us, and I don't have the same like dedicated cadence of sending out a blog post every day. So I sort of need the video, but you don't need it in the same way. You have a different way of doing it.

SPEAKER_02 32:02

Different, but it does make it hard to participate in platforms that are prioritizing certain content, obviously. Yeah, which I'm just not, but that's okay.

SPEAKER_00 32:12

You know, I sometimes I'm give yourself the grace, like you were saying before. I think you sort of have to say, This is working, or I've been busy publishing a book for this year. Like, if this is all you did all year, you've killed it.

SPEAKER_02 32:22

So I think also, and uh sometimes I'm like, what am I chasing on Instagram? Like, I mean, I would love to have more readers, I love to get more people to read my book, to interact with me, to join the magpie flock, but yeah, we're doing great in our little corner, cozy corner of the world.

SPEAKER_01 32:39

That's what I'm always like, it might be a little scary out there. I don't know if I need to get much bigger.

SPEAKER_02 32:44

Like, dip your toe into, for example, book talk. Sometimes I'll dip my toe into a space. I don't even know what it is, though. I mean that's what I mean. It's gonna be scary. I'm like, wait, there's a whole universe that's happening that I know nothing about.

SPEAKER_00 32:59

I think that almost less so scares me. I'm just like, how amazing that I have my own little corner of the world and these people who are supporting me and letting me do this as my job, and there's a whole much bigger world out there that I know nothing about. I know. Because people will say to me, like, oh, this influencer, and I've never heard of them. And it kind of, I think that's almost great because I'm like, great, they're killing it over there. Right. I'm doing well over here, and we can both be like the rising tides lifts all these different boats of different types of people.

SPEAKER_02 33:26

I think that's true. And also, I don't know if you feel this, but I really do try to create with blinders on, like, nothing.

SPEAKER_00 33:33

I could be better at that. I think in some ways I do, and I'm like, oh, I'm never gonna be that girl. Don't think about what she's doing. But then it does feel like, and maybe because I mean, I don't even really post them, there becomes a trend of a type of reel or a video that everyone's posting this type of thing. So I think I watch thinking, oh, I've got to stay up to date on what people are doing. Mind you, in reality, I never really follow through with that trend. So I could stop and like be like, nah, no, it doesn't even matter. I think I'm still getting used to when I did PR full-time, I really felt like I always had to be watching. I had to know what was happening.

SPEAKER_02 34:06

That's a good point.

SPEAKER_00 34:07

And so I'm still trying to like loosen up that habit.

SPEAKER_02 34:11

Well, that makes sense. You're trained in that. You're trained to look for the trends, to listen to what people are saying, to see what the cool thing is that everyone's posting, whatever.

SPEAKER_00 34:18

And that's interesting. So I definitely am, I feel like I have some friends now who don't use Instagram at all. You know, people who don't work in this space, and that sounds amazing, or they're using brick and you know, locking themselves out of their phones. I don't think I could fully do that, but I would love just the other day, I was saying to my friend Emily on the phone, I'm trying to remind myself that I could go on Instagram, and even though I don't like the algorithm, it's probably gonna show me everything I need to see in the first five minutes. Oh, interesting. Yeah, that's what I try to tell myself at least, just for my mental health. And then I could log off. Like I don't really need to be scrolling for more than five minutes. Right. Mind you, let me tell you, there are days I'm scrolling for over 30 minutes, three times a day or whatever it is. But that's where I'm currently at. Just trying to tell myself, log on, post what you need to post, and just scroll for a second. Cause I like, I love seeing all my friends. Like there's so many people. I don't want to miss what you're posting or someone else's, but I try to tell myself, most likely I'll be served what I kind of need to see. Right. Pretty quickly. And I keep a tight edit of who I follow. Well, I try to do that too, and then I sort of get in trouble if someone's like, oh, you don't follow us back, like a brand, or oh yeah. I mean, no one's paying attention today, and no one really cares, but some people notice. Yeah. And that's I never want to hurt anyone's feelings. Oh, I know. That's a hard piece of it. I wish I could start from scratch with my followers. I wish there was like a button with who I follow. Who you follow. That if I could press something and it fully cleared it all out, and I could start again.

SPEAKER_02 35:40

Start again, rebuild your universe. I know because I think when I log on, I see people, only people that spark joy and are doing something creatively interesting or I enjoy their edits or their voice. It's mainly joy. Yeah. Like I don't want negativity that you're good at that.

SPEAKER_00 35:56

You're good at finding the joy. I feel like that's your brand like ethos almost to me.

SPEAKER_02 36:01

I try. Yeah, I love that. Yeah. So I yeah, but I do try to when I'm creating, I try to completely cocoon myself. I don't want to care what someone else is writing about. I want it to come from like a place of this spraying out of my daily life and onto the paper.

SPEAKER_00 36:18

I definitely think my version of that is to truly just post my daily life, to be like, yep, this is what I'm wearing today. Yeah. And sometimes, and I love to help my community shop, but I've found that I'm just not the person who's gonna, you know, help everyone find like, you know how some influencers will say, What are you shopping for? Let me help you.

SPEAKER_03 36:34

Right.

SPEAKER_00 36:35

I just think I'm not great at that because I more so would rather be like, if you have my body type, here's the jeans for you, or I was looking for dresses for to wear to a spring event, here's the 10, instead of being the personal shopper to people, that starts to feel a little inauthentic to me. So I found, let me just continue to be me doing shopping too much, but sharing the best of the best of what I'm finding. I love that. And posting it without too much thought. That's my biggest thing is if I film something and take more than two days to post it, it will never go live. Because then I'll start to overthink it and compare it to like maybe the video if the when I open Instagram, someone has a better video. So why would I even post mine? And that's where I need to like tell myself not to look. And I'm just like, nope, this is what we've got.

SPEAKER_02 37:17

That's I think that's that's it, Nan. Like, I I I get a lot of questions about writing and craft. And one of my top tips is don't just publish, like get it out there. You can you have to put out version 1.0, even though in your case it's a video that will be there.

SPEAKER_00 37:34

No, but I do think that's the building. I tell people all the time, like, if they want to start posting on Instagram, I'm like, still today, please be aware. I cringe at the video that I post today. You better believe I cringe at the video I posted three years ago. But I just don't take it too seriously either. Like, I'm just like, yeah, don't be too precious with it. Yeah, it's hard for the does make it fun.

SPEAKER_02 37:52

Do you know the creator Sam Moose? Uh she is so cute. Oh, we need to have her on. Sam Hirschman. She's a gem. She's amazing. But I saw she just someone just asked her a question like, do you have tips if you're gonna be a new creator? Yeah. And she said it has to come from a place of joy. Yeah. Like if you're going trying to build a name for yourself and it's not coming from a place of I'm so excited to share this or I'm so excited to be doing this, yeah. It's not gonna work. It's not gonna work.

SPEAKER_00 38:18

Well, that's why I think I'm like, I am not gonna fill that like personal shopper bucket. That's not me. But what does bring me joy is if I'm walking down the street or at a restaurant or something and someone's like, oh, I love that dress. I am the person that will be like, oh, well, let me tell you. I can't just like stop. Yeah, I can't be like, thanks and keep walking. I will stop. I will tell you exactly where I bought it, for how much, what size to get. Like, I would do all of that without a blog, without any internet presence. I can tell. That's why it feels like this is natural to me, and that's what I lean into.

SPEAKER_02 38:45

I loved your recent interview with um who was the gal who does beauty PR? Oh, Madeline, she's a jack. She's so lovely. I now follow her at the butt. She's amazing. But I loved your conversation at the end about those Parish shoes that you were going to. Oh, the sharp edge slippers. So sweet and so you, Nan. You were just having so much fun talking talking all the shop about the shoes. I love all the things.

SPEAKER_00 39:08

Well, we will get into all of that too, but I have a few more questions just to get back to because as we did, we just sort of got off topic in a great way, but I'm good at that. Um, but I'd love to know just generally back to a day in your life, you're raising your kids, you're writing at your desk, posting your links. What is something that you just love about what you do? I mean, you've sort of hit on it, but like what's really your favorite part?

SPEAKER_02 39:29

I still pinch myself that I am paid to write for a living. Like I'm paid to do what I was meant to do in life. Like that's feels so just deeply good. Yeah. Um, so that's first. Just being being able to write every day, and that's what I'm meant to do.

SPEAKER_00 39:44

In contrast, what is something that you find that's the hardest about your job or what you do?

SPEAKER_02 39:49

Oh, all those like content packaging type things, like alt text for the right size of image and SEO and the back of house stuff, I find so tedious.

SPEAKER_00 39:59

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 40:00

But as I'm sure you found with running your own business in entrepreneurship, you have to be willing to do like the lowest common denominator job until you become a bottleneck and then you outsource it.

SPEAKER_00 40:11

Oh, I can't wait one day to I can outsource someone to do this or do that.

SPEAKER_02 40:14

But you've got to learn how to do it all yourself first. Then then pass stuff. But there's a lot of that stuff, as you know, that goes on behind the scenes. It's not just one time we actually, Land and I mapped out how many discrete tasks go into publishing one WordPress blog post.

SPEAKER_03 40:29

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_02 40:29

And it was something like 49 tasks.

SPEAKER_03 40:31

Different things, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:32

Different things, which I think seems how could that be? But there is.

SPEAKER_00 40:35

And I think there's something beautiful about like the follower doesn't really need to know that. Like they don't want to know that it takes a lot of time or whatever. And that's I get that. No. But for those who are I don't even want to know, and I'm doing it. It's so boring. Um, outside of the work realm for a second, what are some things do you have, other hobbies that you sort of really love or feed your soul? I'm a big reader, read every day. So we were chatting about that before we started to record because Jen came in and she's like, so yesteryear, what do we think? So now I have to ask you, what did you think of yesteryear?

SPEAKER_02 41:07

Well, it gripped me. Um it was like, I wrote about I wrote a blog, a book review on the blog about it. Um, it felt, you know that part? I hope I'm not ruining it for any readers who haven't gotten to this. I've kind of we've talked about it like on three episodes, three episodes now.

SPEAKER_00 41:21

I'm like, if you haven't read it, skip ahead five minutes. Yes. Let's just I want to dive into the real meat because I think I'm annoyed by the internet that everything hasn't spoiled it. And I'm like, no, but we need to talk about that.

SPEAKER_02 41:30

We need to, we need to talk about that. But yeah, you know that scene where she gets her ankle snapped in the anvil snare? That's what the book felt like to me. Like that feeling of being oh my god, that's such a good analogy for it. And I couldn't turn away, and it was kind of painful, and I couldn't wait for it to be over, but I still had to know how to end it.

SPEAKER_00 41:47

That's what we were saying.

SPEAKER_01 41:47

Like it was a book where you had to get to the end, even if you maybe didn't love it, because you need to know what the twist was. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 41:52

Did you see it coming?

SPEAKER_02 41:54

I didn't, but I I first of all I'll say I think she did an amazing job. She's a first-time author, she was a fellow UVA grad. Love, love, love. Yeah, I thought it was like well written, intriguing. It kept me. Yes. However, I think for me, it felt like the central conceit of the book was so clever. It's like, let's send this woman back to the time that she's pretending to live in. But then I felt like the plot didn't make a lot of sense around that. Like, I don't really understand the mechanic of what actually happened. Like, how did she actually wake up and she had kind of forgotten the previous? Did she have a set like a break?

SPEAKER_00 42:28

I think she had like a mental break and or multiple mental breaks. I equally felt like we didn't have quite enough time, but maybe that was purposeful in the end of the book, realizing, oh, she chose this life. She f day by day built this life of living a terrible life. Like she created her own agony. And yeah, I don't think we saw quite enough of that time period. It was like so detailed in the day. And I'm like, no, no, no. So how did you say to your husband, oh, we're gonna go deeper into this? We're gonna go deeper in. Right. We're not gonna have any new clothes, we're not talking to the outside world, we're eating terrible food, right? And more or less starving and harming these children.

SPEAKER_02 43:06

Children, I know. Yeah. So I don't know. I had a little issue with the narrative interesting there. I couldn't quite piece it together. And I it made me think like she had this great idea, but then couldn't figure out the way to make it all work. Yeah. But anyway, that aside, or maybe it's that she wants it to feel disorienting and there should be a lot of questions about it, should leave you wondering.

SPEAKER_00 43:26

Well, I think that was what it was for me. It's like because I honestly candidly, I mean, I love to read a book, but I am not, this is the same way I think about a movie. Like, I can't, because it's not my art, it's not my craft, I can't really overly criticize a movie. I'm like, oh, I watched it. Did I like it? Did I not? So for the book for me, I'm like, I don't think so much about, oh, this chapter was long or how she put these things together. More so I'm just stuck on the fact that this painful woman did that to her children. Like that she more or less really physically harmed these children and malnourished all these things. And obviously, this is a fake story, but I think it almost what we really Really want the book might want us to talk about is how a woman could get there, like how they could get so deep into caring about what other people think so that they could lose. I don't know if that that character Natalie ever really cared for the health of her children. But like I I think the takeaway that maybe the author's trying to talk about is like, how could someone get here? And to have that be what we're talking about at the end.

SPEAKER_02 44:21

Right. And I think the whole motif of performance was really interesting and scary, disturbing. 100%. Because do you remember when her mom tells her we're always performing? Yeah. Like I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_00 44:33

And she did for the rest of her life after hearing that, I think.

SPEAKER_02 44:35

I know. That was that still sends shivers down my spine.

SPEAKER_00 44:39

Like well, because she's not actually religious, I don't think. Like we never once, and I think that probably was purposeful. I don't think we ever saw her go to church.

SPEAKER_02 44:46

No, she doesn't. And she almost invokes God in a kind of sarcastic way. She's like, forgive me because I denigrate these people.

SPEAKER_00 44:53

Or let me do all these terrible things and say it's in your like name and I'm doing it for you. And it's like, no, you're doing it to create this image of yourself that you don't even fully understand. I think the reason I liked the book and I'm so hung up on it, is it just keeps making my mind it my brain keeps spinning about it. I can land on one thing like that, the religion aspect or something else, and be like, I wonder if it was like this. Or is it like that actually for that influencer out there in real life? Or this person or that person? It just keeps making me wonder.

SPEAKER_02 45:21

Which I think is the limit for good art. Like you don't have to like it, you don't have to be comfortable. We didn't like Natalie. I don't think anyone's walking away from this book being like, I am a fan of Natalie. No. But if it makes you that feeling of for me was cognitive dissonance, the whole book. I was like, I can't get comfortable with it for so many different reasons. Um, and that I think is a tell that there is serious craft and skilling.

SPEAKER_00 45:46

It's like just a book that's gonna stick with me and has, because I read it a few months ago. The other book that I read that did stick with me, Strangers. I feel like everyone's read that. Loved it, loved it. I thought it was so moving. I read that one really quickly. What do you think of like the pushback it's gotten online recently?

SPEAKER_02 46:02

You know, I read, I'm gonna botch this, but someone I I remember there are all these essays that are coming out, exposes about her actual finances and all this. And someone commented on one of them that was like, last time I checked, this wasn't like she's not doing investigative journalism, she's just telling her story, and why are we so uncomfortable with a woman telling her story? Um, and so that really gave shape or language to some of the interior thoughts I had about it.

SPEAKER_00 46:28

Um I agree. I think that was my takeaway too. I was like, I understand why people are having pushback against it. It was interesting to see it. I mean, I read something that someone said, I went through a terrible divorce. I went into debt because of my divorce. I am therefore now in a job I really dislike. I have no time, I have a story that's worse than this to tell, and I can't tell that story. I'm not sitting there writing a book because she didn't have the means. Right. And so that is all so valid. Like I totally understand that. But I think at the same time, we can all, we could all still acknowledge it was still a very moving book. It was this woman's personal story. She's allowed to tell the story.

SPEAKER_02 47:03

And there's a lot of good that's come out of it. I've 100% that there are women that are going to banks and saying, I want to know more about my finances.

SPEAKER_00 47:10

If that's the one takeaway people get, I mean, that's amazing. And so I loved it for that reason. And I think also I'm curious, like, how many books come out with men who aren't telling the full story? I think we're being a little critical to a specific standard. That might be a little unfair. I mean, I think men are lying all the time too. And who knows if she I don't know if she was even fully lying.

SPEAKER_02 47:30

Like, yeah, I know. And I I think more people should tell their stories. And I I'm of the mind like pain is pain is pain. 100%.

SPEAKER_00 47:39

And you're never gonna fully know someone else's perspective on life. Like we're all sitting in different lives, so you can't ever, you can think that their life's easier, and probably in some mathematical ways or things on paper, it might seem easier, but they've never lived your life, so they don't know the opposite, and vice versa. Like, we're all just fighting our own journey.

SPEAKER_02 47:56

100%. I feel but I do also appreciate some of these topics are triggering in all these books, and like they're hitting on very sensitive and complex, like cultural, totally, social, economic.

SPEAKER_00 48:09

But I love talking about it. Like, I like having the reason to talk with my friends about if they've read it and what they think and all the different moving parts. A little bit less heavy, but I saw that you're reading Whistler. And have you finished it? Because I haven't finished it yet to do it.

SPEAKER_02 48:26

I look really good so much.

SPEAKER_00 48:28

I do too. I need to actually do, I like to do a deep dive on people. Like once I so Carol Claire Burke, who wrote yesterday, like I've done my deep dive on her. I'm now part of her team. I'm listening to her podcast, all the things. So I need to do that with Ann Patchett more. I've definitely obviously read other ones of her book. I love Tom Lake. I thought that was great. That really sort of, I think I'm later to the game on her writing. So that pulled me in because I actually never got through the Dutch House, which I know people love. Yeah. So I need to go back and read that after I finish this. But her work's amazing and I want to dive a little bit more into her.

SPEAKER_02 49:01

I know. And she's a powerhouse. Yeah. I love her so much. I have so much respect for her craft, who she is, the way she runs her business.

SPEAKER_00 49:10

Are there other, we have to, I want to get your no early tips. I mean, I'm gonna go so many, there's so many things for us to talk about, but just on this reading book topic, you mentioned Mary Oliver a few times in your book. Are there other just quickly like authors that you love or a few books that you think everyone should read, like as someone who just admires that craft and is part of that world? What are your favorites?

SPEAKER_02 49:29

Oh, I mean, on the top shelf, I keep Sally Rooney, all of her titles. Do you are you a Rooney fan? I have I've read a few of them. Not all. She didn't swoop get me as fast as she got everyone else, but I have I've read a few. Love her work. Um, yeah, I keep like and my top shelf is like Madeline Miller's Searcy. Okay, Anne Patchett, I keep Sally Rooney. I have Edith Hamilton's book of mythology, which I think everyone should have. I know it sounds very esoteric, but the way that she writes about myth, about like the underlying shapes of humanity, the stories she tells is so beautiful. Oh, I love that. You can almost what I do is often instead of reading poetry, I'll just like open to a page and read a section. And it sh the writing is just so imagistic and beautiful. I could go on and on the case. Okay, that's a good sampling. I love that. But I also should say I read a ton of romance. Oh, well, give us a few of those too, then.

SPEAKER_00 50:22

Oh, I'm too embarrassed to say the names. Oh my god, yes, they're all like crazy. Have you been watching, or what do you think? I think it's pretty light romance, but the um off campus. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 50:30

We w I did watch that. I enjoyed the.

SPEAKER_00 50:32

Did you read those? I've never read those.

SPEAKER_02 50:33

They weren't on mine. One of hers. Okay. So yeah. I shouldn't say I'm too embarrassed. I can't even like I no, the names are like hot nevy or listen to. Yeah, puck puck hockey from something.

SPEAKER_00 50:44

Well, I do think the romance novels are fun and quick, and I enjoy them, but they sort of they they're not hanging with me like strangers. Like they don't stick with you. You sort of one then the next and the next, they all blur together.

SPEAKER_02 50:54

But there's so many reasons to read, ways to read, yeah, purposes to read. I listen to a lot of books instead of really I'm a huge audio book.

SPEAKER_00 51:01

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 51:01

How do you fit it into your life?

SPEAKER_00 51:03

Like, where do you I think I fit it in because I live alone. Like if I was, you know, a mom with a husband at home, all these things, it would be different. But because I live alone, I'm just sort of always, I'm not a huge music gal. Oh, I think it's a good one. So I'm kind of always listening to something. I listen to music. Like when I'm in the shower or whatever, sure, there's music on, but I don't have a passion for music. Like if I had to sit in front of someone and tell them what artists I like or albums, I mean, my mind goes blank. I listen to like the top 20. Like it's just not my thing. So really, I listen to podcasts all the time and books. So I usually always have like two audiobooks going at a time. Oh, that's that I was just saying to Drew earlier that I think I've read 10 books so far this year, which means I'm a little slow on my goal of 25, which isn't even that big, but we'll hope I'll get there.

SPEAKER_02 51:48

That's great.

SPEAKER_00 51:49

And I've probably listened to like seven of them.

SPEAKER_02 51:51

Oh, wow. Okay. So I really listen. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:53

Okay. Because then I can needlepoint, I can be on the subway. Like I think I get through my books, and that's still not I'm not reading that fast, faster, even though generally it's slower to listen because I can do it in multiple facets of it.

SPEAKER_02 52:06

Right. Or even when you're cleaning your house.

SPEAKER_00 52:07

Oh, no, but unloading the dishwasher, making my coffee. It's just sort of a way to have something with you when you're home alone. I think.

SPEAKER_02 52:14

Yeah, I love that. I I wish I'm trying to find ways because I know that that that that modality sometimes even gives more to the book.

SPEAKER_00 52:22

Definitely. It does depend though, because like Tom Lake, for example, was Meryl Streep. I mean, amazing. That was great. However, I've been listening to Whistler, and I actually saw someone else say this on the internet that it's been a little bit hard because I think Ann Patchett is narrating it herself, which is fun. Um, but it's a little hard to tell when she's going from conversational to internal thoughts.

SPEAKER_02 52:43

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00 52:43

And that can just depend book to book. So there's definitely books that are made for audio and books that aren't. Um, and I could be a little better about figuring that out before I start.

SPEAKER_02 52:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:52

But I love an audiobook. I am dyslexic. I'm a very slow reader. I'm not also a reason I'm not a great writer. So it just works better for me. And I've fully embraced that. I think some people think listening is less of an art form or something, and I'm like, I whatever. It's better. There's a lot worse things I could be doing.

SPEAKER_02 53:10

This it's the same thing. Yeah. Um, I think, but also I always say, I used to teach writing, and I would always say, and and reading like literature, and when I was a TA in grad school, and I would always say, like, slow readers are good readers because they're actually paying attention. I always am a little suspicious. Does I again, what does it matter to me? But when someone's like, I read 50,000 books a year, I'm like, well, what did you absorb? Yeah, that's true. That's true. So don't sell yourself. Everyone's on their own path.

SPEAKER_00 53:38

All right, well, we could keep chatting forever, but I have to ask you your noteworthy tips to keep us within our guardrails of the podcast. Of course. Um, so I know you came prepared. So, what is one of your noteworthy tips?

SPEAKER_02 53:49

Yeah, so one of the things I do is a compassionate body scan. Have we talked about this over?

SPEAKER_00 53:54

No, but I'm so excited. And when I was reading through your tips, I was like, oh, she's gonna give us some good things to walk away with because I could be a little more compassionate to myself.

SPEAKER_02 54:01

Yes, exactly. I mean, I'm always looking for ways to just take up more quiet space in my day. So this is something I do multiple times a day. It's not rocket science, it's just I'll remember, like, have that body scan, and I'll just scan from the top of my head to the tips of my toes. Okay. Where am I holding stress? And like, let me relieve my shoulders from my ears. Relax the tongue. Like, oh my god, my shoulders are so high and tight. Sometimes I'll be sitting on my desk like this, you know, like a little rabbit. Um, and then relax the tongue from the roof of your mouth. Okay. I'm always like carrying all this tension in my mouth. Anyway, you just go down and then you realize, like, whoa, I feel so much looser and better. And it's a little pause to correct. I love that. And so you th you do it a few times multiple times a day. Multiple times a day, super easy. But that's one way to, I think, slow down and try to pay attention and live where your feet are. I think, yeah, okay, that's like your book. I love all of this here. So okay. The second thing is the hatch restore. Do you have one? I do. I love this technology.

SPEAKER_00 55:04

I go back and forth on it, and we it's come up on the podcast. The hatch is a sound machine slash alarm clock. It really can do a lot of different things. I actually was just realizing, I was like, why have I not been using my hatch when I saw yours come through? It's still in my bedroom, it has the time on it. And I changed my internet the other day and I forgot to reconnect it. Okay. So right now it just says the time and doesn't do anything else. Yeah. And I need to like restink it back up. Which sounds so crazy that I like to change my internet. I was trying to figure out my AC this whole thing. Stupid. Internet of things. But I was like, oh, I should get back into the hatch because I loved the routine of the way the light came on with it, the noise. But walk us through why you love your hatch.

SPEAKER_02 55:42

Well, it's enabled me to be completely device-free at night. So I love this.

SPEAKER_00 55:47

This is the trend of noteworthy with Nan. Yes, everyone is obsessed with no phones by their bed.

SPEAKER_02 55:52

Yes. It helps me. My sleep hygiene has gone like improved materially. Um, I also just it means that when I wake up in the middle of the night, I just have to lay there with my thoughts or I read. I like reach for my Kindle. So there is a screen, but not a phone. The much better screen.

SPEAKER_00 56:09

Like if that's or if that's the worst thing happening if you're reading your Kindle in the middle of the night, that's okay. I think that's why I really liked the hatch. So I had the setting where it wouldn't show me the time in the middle of the night. You can turn it off the light of the time of the time coming through the hatch. So I would have it turn off from midnight to four or five a.m. It didn't show any time. Because I wake up a lot in the middle of the night. I'm a very light sleeper, and then I get anxious that I'm not sleeping well when I wake up and it's one in the morning and I'm like, oh my God, I have five more hours to go or whatever. So that's actually why I want to reconnect it. Because I think that was the healthiest part for me is when I woke up and turned over and didn't see a time, I was like, that sort of forced me to be compassionate and relax and be like, it could be 1 a.m. Yeah, he's like, you've got a lot more time. Just turn back over. Right. And that's why I loved it. But then yeah, like the waking up to it, everything. So you're inspiring me. I'm gonna go home tonight and set mine back up.

SPEAKER_02 57:00

I mean, we're so in our entering our middle age if we're obsessed with talking about our sleep. But I do have to say one other thing that really helps me is my dad always says resting is the next best thing to sleep. And that really helps me. I mean, and he was someone who like fought in the Vietnam War and slept in some really like terrible places. So if he was able to just come to this place of like, again, compassion, just like let your body rest. If you can't sleep, it's no big deal. That kind of stuff really helps me. Oh wow, I'm gonna steal that. That's a good one. Um, okay, and then talk to us about mantras. Yeah, so the other the third thing was that I keep mantras close at hand. I keep them on like a pin board, on my notepad, in my phone. The ones and and I'll cycle through ones that are particularly helpful to me at certain times of my life, but the one as a mother that I return to constantly is you are where you're you need to be today. And and that that's probably true of even it without a lot of people.

SPEAKER_00 57:55

Yeah, I'm not a mom, but I'll take that because I do think it's like we could. I one of your things in here was like the paths you don't take, which one I like as a child at some point had to recite that poem, you know, um, The Road Less Traveled with Robert Frost. And I sort of think about that a lot. I'm like, who knew where I would be now? Like if you had asked Nan in college or high school if she would have a podcast, I'd be like, hell no. Like, what? You just I can think of so many times that I've failed or been rejected from things or things didn't go the way I wanted as I was reading through this because you had some things on that, and it's like thank goodness.

SPEAKER_02 58:26

I know, like for sure.

SPEAKER_00 58:28

So just being grateful for where you are and not knowing what's coming is sort of a blessing, too.

SPEAKER_02 58:33

Yes, and also I think it helps with this, you know, you're waiting in line for a prescription, you're rushing to the next thing, and you're like kind of have that friction against the moment. And instead of fighting against it, you just let yourself say, No, this is the job right now. The job is waiting for my prescription, the job is taking my kid to the doctor's appointment, whatever it is, just surrender to that.

SPEAKER_00 58:56

Oh, I love that. And also, it's like, how great if like the biggest thing you have to do right now is sit in your car, wait to pick up your kids.

SPEAKER_02 59:02

Like that's a blessing in itself. Oh, I know. I think about that a lot actually when I'm in a car. Having lived in New York when I didn't have a car, now I still am like, this is great. It's raining. I'm in my car, I'm listening to my music. I'm not in the pouring rain. Not in the pouring rain on the subway right now. So just that's good.

SPEAKER_00 59:20

Oh, I love that. Well, I could talk to you for hours, Jen. This is so fun. So fun. Thank you for coming on. I want to gotta let you go so you can enjoy New York before you go back home and all the things. But thank you for being here. We will link to everything so everyone can find Jen's book. You can buy a signed copy on her website, so we will link to that, but you can also find it on bookstores, you know, anywhere. Um, and then we'll link to your blog, all the things. But thank you for being here. Thank you so much, Nan. And um, we'll be back next week with a new episode. That's a wrap. Do you have a noteworthy tip? Leave it in the comments below. Thanks for listening.