The Analog Grind

A listener stationed overseas writes in, gets home on leave, then ends up stuck in a German airport where our YouTube documentaries are blocked. So we do what wrestling has always trained us to do: solve the problem with whatever we’ve got, keep the show moving, and take care of our people. From there, the conversation turns into a straight-shot look at the mid-90s wrestling grind where the miles are real, the money is unpredictable, and the stories are somehow even stranger than the matches. 

We dig into the surreal moments you only get in the territories and early indie wrestling: showing up to Southern States Wrestling already holding tag team belts you never actually won, trying to remember who the Troublemakers even were, and watching a “mummy” gimmick limp along because the funding demanded it. We also talk honestly about what performers deal with under masks and costumes, including panic, heat, and the pressure to make bad material work in front of a live crowd. 

Then we get practical and specific about career-building before the internet. We break down demo tape reality: camcorders, VCR edits, tracking lines, dubbing costs, and why cold-calling promoters every Monday was as important as your ring work. We compare that hustle to early WCW opportunities where catering for enhancement talent basically doesn’t exist and the pay system can drip-feed a big check for weeks. And yes, we tell the Doink stories, including the Ron Simmons moment that turned a wig fiasco into a lesson you don’t forget, plus why negotiating your money matters more than your assumptions. 

If you like behind-the-scenes wrestling history, Smoky Mountain Wrestling stories, WCW 1995 realities, and hard-earned indie wrestling advice, hit subscribe, share this with a friend who loves the road stories, and leave us a review so more listeners can find the show.

Transcript

Cold Open And Show Setup

SPEAKER_03 0:01

I am your champion. Oh man, that's classic. I love it. I'm gonna climb that ladder of success all the way to the top. Dallas, how are you, buddy?

SPEAKER_01 0:41

I'm doing really well. It's uh always nice to be here with you. I'm looking forward to talking about uh some I mean, just just as we go on each episode, things get more and more interesting. We we encounter more and more names of you know that people may know, some names that people may not know that we can kind of go further into. So uh just excited.

SPEAKER_03 1:03

Well, it's a great day for wrestling.

SPEAKER_01 1:07

I don't are I don't know that I like that as much as you I mean you're really trying to get that over, and I just I don't know. I I uh I wish you'd have workshopped it with me before you just put it on Air.

SPEAKER_03 1:19

I I need a greeting of some sort besides greetings and salutations. And that that worked so well before, I just thought, well, let's see if it translates. But you know what? It I just did it and it and it just didn't feel right.

SPEAKER_01 1:36

No, it's not. Yeah, I don't know. It just doesn't I it didn't it doesn't work for me, brother.

SPEAKER_03 1:41

Well, maybe we'll uh as the Cuban used to say, we'll 96 that, and uh and we'll see if we can come up with something else that'll that's better than that.

SPEAKER_01 1:55

I'll get my best people on it.

SPEAKER_03 1:57

You can get your people to call my people. So uh all right, so this is the ride home. This is the sister show to making the towns, where I've kept a journal for 30 plus years. And in making the towns, it's kind of like going to the wrestling show, and we talk about the the towns that I've made, the money, the miles, the bumps. And this is kind of a looser kind of QA format of the ride home, as if we were the show was over and we're on the way back home and we're rebooking the territory. And I understand that Dallas has some great questions. And without further ado, I'll turn it over to you, pal.

A Listener Overseas Gets Help

SPEAKER_01 2:37

Thank you, thank you very much. So, with episode six, the first thing I I want to say right off the top is it was it it was really great to hear from Noah, who's stationed overseas listening to the show. Um thought that was really awesome. That's uh that's just something that makes you feel good about what you're doing. I mean, we have a lot of fun here, and we've made it pretty clear we're no longer like pursuing this as a money-making avenue, as much as just you know, something we believe in and we want to have a good time with, and to hear that somebody is getting something out of it, you know, in such a different world than we're in, you know, um, like like Noah is stationed overseas. So uh very cool, very cool to hear from him, and I hope he's uh listening and um uh I hope we can continue to offer him a little taste of home.

SPEAKER_03 3:32

Well, uh two things about Noah. Number one, he asked about you this week. Um, well, that's cool. Yeah, he asked how you were doing, and he uh he got to come home on leave. So he came home for the weekend and got to see his mama, and then he was on his way back and he got stopped in Germany. And apparently some of our videos on YouTube are blocked in Germany. Oh gosh. So he was sitting in the airport and his plan was I'm gonna watch these documentaries again while I'm sitting here waiting on my flight. And he messages me and he says, I can't get it. And I said, Well, that's unacceptable. We're not gonna let that stand in the way of you watching these. So I personally sent him all four video files of the documentaries so he could watch them in the airport.

SPEAKER_01 4:28

Well, that's great. Yeah, that's really uh what a what a what a nice thing for you to do. And obviously, I mean I uh that that was absolutely the right thing to do in that situation and helped Noah out. I'm glad he got to come home for a little bit. And uh yeah, that's super cool. I'm glad I'm glad he I'm glad he asked about me. That makes me feel good.

SPEAKER_03 4:45

Yeah, he did. He wondered where you'd been for a week, and I said that uh we just life got got in the way. Uh I've been doing some stuff with my puppy certification, and you've been working long hours, and I said we just had to take a week to get our stuff back together, but we weren't going anywhere. We just just took us some time to get get our our priorities straight and get back in the swing of things.

SPEAKER_01 5:09

Absolutely. So with that uh with that said, let's jump into it a little bit

The Phantom Tag Title Reigns

SPEAKER_01 5:15

here. So the first thing I have is so you you you you've made your way to Southern States Wrestling for the first time. And I want to know how many times you showed up at Southern States Wrestling and were just slotted in with no explanation as one half of the tag team champions.

SPEAKER_03 5:40

From day one. I rolled in and suddenly the Hornet and Bo James had won the tournament.

SPEAKER_01 5:47

Right, but I know that I know of at least one other time in your career where that happened. Where you you had not been there for a while. Yeah, with me. And then you showed back up and it was like, oh, by the way, you're the tag team champion.

SPEAKER_03 6:00

Yeah, it I I think I want to say I think I'm a four or five times Southern States tag team champion, and I don't think I've ever won the belt. So I want to I want to say at least four times that um that I was handed the belt and won it in the quote unquote tournament um or in you know Gary, Indiana, or where wherever the fictitious phantom change had happened. Rio de Janeiro. Rio de Janeiro, yeah. Boy, that was a tough town to make from Kingsport. Still easier to make than Memphis.

SPEAKER_01 6:45

Kingsport to Rio for 20 bucks.

SPEAKER_03 6:48

Oh, without a doubt. Yeah. Yeah, and then and I had to pay for my passport.

SPEAKER_01 6:54

Right, right. So um you you you mentioned a couple times a couple of matches with a team called the troublemakers, who you you you admitted you don't know who that is. Right. But you stole their gimmick 25 later anyway.

SPEAKER_03 7:13

Yeah, 25 later. 25 years later. Yeah, yeah. I stole their gimmick, became the troublemaker, and uh they had a great influence on me. You know, I want to say that that was Jeff Storm and Jamie.

SPEAKER_02 7:27

Really?

SPEAKER_03 7:27

I'm guessing I just I don't have any facts, but I I something just deep down in my stomach says that's who they were.

SPEAKER_01 7:36

Yeah, that that would make sense, I guess.

SPEAKER_03 7:39

Yeah, I mean we would have to ask one of them because I just I just don't remember. Um, but I remember working with those guys, and since they're not in the book, it would say, you know, that that's who that probably was.

SPEAKER_01 7:55

Okay, all right. That's very interesting. Yeah, very, very interesting.

The Mummy Gimmick And Rick Rubin

SPEAKER_01 8:02

So we also in episode six get our first mention of the mummy, of France Carro.

SPEAKER_03 8:11

Yes, the mummy.

SPEAKER_01 8:12

And I just because this is the type of stuff that we're not gonna get to at any point going through your matches. I want to know what what what did the boys think of that gimmick? And at what point do you personally find out that it was the only reason it was being done is because Rick Rubin, who was funding Smoky Mountain Wrestling, wanted it done.

SPEAKER_03 8:41

Well, I at first I didn't know who Rick Rubin was. Um have I told that story yet? About meeting Rick Rubin for the first time?

SPEAKER_01 8:50

Yeah, yeah. I know, I know he's come up, and and the first time he showed up and was introduced as the money guy. Yeah, he talked about you know the his appearance and how he was kind of shocked.

SPEAKER_03 9:01

Right. I thought he was a homeless guy. And uh and I thank God I didn't say anything. So they always referred to him as the money man. I don't think he got a name officially to everybody till later. Even though it was common knowledge to the rest of the boys, I wasn't smartened up to it. I wouldn't have known who he was anyway. Because I'm not I'm not that hip on music, so I don't I wouldn't know. But it was known from the get-go that the mummy was part of the deal. And that's why we are ha- I mean, Corney wanted everybody to know this is why we're doing this silly shit, is because we have to. And of course it was portrayed as uh very subtly, but this is a guy in a mummy suit who thinks he's a mummy. We're not saying this is a real mummy, but him and his manager both thinks he's a mummy, and it's just a guy. That's why when they cut the thumb off and the sand came out, that was a bigger deal than what you would get at face value, because everybody assumed it was a guy in the suit, and then when you cut the thumb off and the sand came out, it was kind of like a oh my god, what is that? Not a holy shit, it's sand, he's made of sand. It was where's the guy's thumb? Like this has to be a guy, this can't just be a mummy, you know, that kind of thing. Yeah. So, but the mummy did not get over at all. At all. And then, you know, but Rob, the guy playing the mummy, was one of the nicest guys I've ever met in the business. Just happy-go lucky, happy to be there, just a big old boy. Um, he had been the original gravedigger in Memphis, and they used him a couple times against Lawler, and that was about it, and he wasn't going anywhere, and this was his big opportunity, and he took it as a big opportunity until he, you know, he he had the mummy costume was sweat white sweatpants and a white sweatshirt with tape all around it and some toilet paper and some powder to make it look like a mummy. And then it was a monkey mask that he put on and then taped in. And he had a panic attack when he put the mummy mask on because he couldn't breathe. And they taped him in there. So when you're seeing the mummy in the ring, he can't get out of that uh that costume. He had he has to be cut out of that costume by somebody else. So normally, like when I work under a hood, especially later on when I was the ranch hand and was having panic attacks in the ring, and we'll talk about that one day. Um, first thing I wanted to do was rip my mask off so I could breathe. Well, he couldn't do that. You know, he he he had to have he had to sit down and they had to cut him out of the thing, and you had to be careful not to cut the mu the the monkey mask because God forbid we're not buying a second monkey mask.

SPEAKER_01 12:12

Right, right.

SPEAKER_03 12:13

You know, so this poor guy is under those lights, he's covered in everything, he can't see, he's in a shitty gimmick, he just this guy was a trooper for what he had to go through.

SPEAKER_01 12:28

Well, yeah, and I mean I'm I'm sure from his per perspective, even with all those negatives, it was you know, this was a this was like you said, a a a big opportunity for him, and you know having having had that run in Memphis that you talked about, and then and then seeing what came after that, I think he probably understood, like, yeah, this might be as good as it ever gets. Right. Like, right. You know, because because after this, what what you know, I mean, I've been the gravedigger in Memphis and now I've been a mummy here.

SPEAKER_03 13:01

I mean What's left? Where do you go for?

SPEAKER_01 13:04

What else is there for me to do? Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 13:06

Well, and I think, and again, I'm I'm putting words in people's mouth 30 years later, but there were rumblings of the developmental territory with WWF at that time. Now it had not occurred yet, but there was talk about it from the moment I got there until you know it happened. So I think he was hoping being the big stature that he was, being a trooper going through these gimmicks that maybe just maybe the WWF would pick him up and you know, do something with him.

SPEAKER_01 13:40

I think that's the Glenn Jacobs plan.

SPEAKER_03 13:43

And the Glenn Jacobs plan, yeah. And then Glenn Jacobs shows up and the mummy is, you know. I mean, there's years in between the two, but what I'm saying is is poor Rob just didn't he just didn't stand a chance, which is why he ended up running shows of his own, which were very good shows. Um I tell you what, if you wanted tickets to anything on the East Coast, he was your guy.

SPEAKER_01 14:10

Yeah, you mentioned he was a ticket scalper, so ticket scalper, extraordinaire, man.

SPEAKER_03 14:16

He he had it down. Um he got us tickets to a few concerts, and then he would uh he he would sell them over the phone, and then he would also be in front of the building. Now he got in trouble a couple times and got arrested a couple times for scalping in front of the building, but it was one of those, it wasn't anything serious. It was one of those go down and post bail kind of thing.

SPEAKER_00 14:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 14:38

But he had tickets to everything. He was he was the guy.

SPEAKER_01 14:43

So

Leaving Smoky Mountain As It Fades

SPEAKER_01 14:44

talking a little bit about Smoky Mountain wrestling, which is such a big part of the story so far, you know, that's where you really got your start, was was with Tim in the Smoky Mountain training school school, and you know, that was your place, you know, then you you had your placement on the TV, and that's where you really got started. Now you're traveling, you're doing all this, and you know, you're you're working a lot of these independents, you know, just working everywhere you can, you're traveling with the rock and roll, and um I'm starting to notice as we get towards the end of 94 and in the beginning of 95, you are mentioning way less Smoky Mountain Day.

SPEAKER_02 15:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:32

Um what at this point in the last little bit of '94 and the first little bit of '95, what's what's your relationship with Smokey Mountain? Are you in constant contact still? Had there been a conversation of go out now and kind of spread your wings? What where were you in terms of your place in Smokey Mountain at this point?

SPEAKER_03 15:57

Well, uh, heading into 95, which was the last year of Smoky Mountain, I had I would be sh uh finishing up shortly right after this time period we're talking about right now with Smokey Mountain and not going back. And it was a kind of go out and spread your wings. You know, Cornett's real big on um leave so we can miss you and bring you back. Go somewhere and do something else so that we can notice you're gone, remember you, and then bring you back and and and you have some fanfare coming back. And uh that was kind of what it was told. Now I think what it was was he didn't have the money to pay the underneath guys anymore.

SPEAKER_02 16:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 16:42

So he was using everybody on the card to their utmost ability. And frankly, Flash Flanagan got the spot. Um, and I didn't feel bad about Flash. Flash is one of my best friends, and I love him to death, loved him then, love him now. And uh, you know, he teamed, uh, I think he teamed with Brad some. Um he was a tag team champion, and uh he just got that spot, so it got whittled down to there's one spot, which guy I'm gonna take the guy with the most seasoned ability, and that happened to be Flash. And then I was sent off. But I still saw the Smoky Mountain guys because we were doing the Mississippi and we were doing the St. Louis stuff, and uh, so I was still seeing the same guys, and then Bob working for Bobby Blaze, because I was a main inventor at Bobby Blaze', and he had the same smoky guys on the show. So I was still around the smoky guys, just not on the Smoky Mountain shows. And that's when you got the guys complaining about the houses and the checks and all the stuff that goes with a territory when it's in its last days.

SPEAKER_01 17:55

Yeah, because it because yeah, you have you have not stopped working with and against those same guys, you know, as you're going through the the the book, and I mean, and that's just such a great look at during that time frame. If you were on Smoky Mountain TV for any amount of time, you could capitalize on that and make make a pretty decent living, you know, in that area of uh, you know, of the country. Yeah where where that TV was so saturated, you know, that those independence around this time, you know, the the 90s, that's when independence really started popping up.

SPEAKER_03 18:35

Right.

SPEAKER_01 18:36

Because the territories are going away and Smoking Mountains about to go away, as an example.

Demo Tapes And Cold Call Hustle

SPEAKER_01 18:41

So um, yeah, and and speaking of TV and experience on TV, you mentioned on this episode that you're getting on as many TVs as possible. That was your goal. Like any anywhere that you could get books that had TV, that's what you that would that's what you wanted. And I it got me thinking, so how often are you updating your tape? And are you getting footage from all these TVs in order to do that?

SPEAKER_03 19:13

Well, getting a hold of the TV footage was really hard. Um, we were lucky enough to get all the footage from the Mid-South Territory, which was John Horton's deal in Mississippi, and uh he made sure that we had all the tapes so we could use that, and that was the first time that me and Anthony as the lost generation started getting put over. The smaller TVs, you I never saw the the tapings. Um I want to say I the ONIDA, the ONIDA TV was weird. I want to say it was live. That it that it aired on like public access right there in ONIDA, and it aired as we were doing it. Wow. Yeah, yeah, it was very weird. So I don't think there were any tapes. Now I'm not I mean I'm thinking back 30 years, but there weren't any tapes to be had of that. I remember I remember them saying something about if you mess up, go with it because there's this is you know, this is live. You know, so I I I think I think that's the way that worked. I think it was a part of uh like a school or something, like a college was doing it as a as a project or something. It was very short-lived, it was very low budget, but but it was cool, it was good, it was a good experience, and the best thing about that TV was is I was probably the most seasoned guy as far as TV working that they had.

SPEAKER_01 20:48

Yeah, yeah. So so so for you, what was the process of uh I mean you I'm assuming you had a resume tape.

SPEAKER_03 20:58

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. You were asking about the tape. I'm sorry. Um, I was updating my my tape was mostly Smoky Mountain house shows. Because back then you you were told, okay, make a sizzle reel and make it all your high spots. Then somebody else would tell you, no, just put a house show match on there, or no, just show your TV work. And it was weird. So I had a demo tape that had a little bit of everything on it, and I think my first demo tapes were like two hours long, which nobody looking back, nobody watched that. And then then I remember the second run when I when I talked about putting all the the tapes and mailing them to everybody. Have we got to that yet?

SPEAKER_01 21:49

I can't remember if we I don't know that we I don't know that we have.

SPEAKER_03 21:53

Okay, well, okay, let me explain that real quick. So every year back then, Pro Wrestling Illustrated would put Put out a guide to the indies and it would have indies A to Z and it would have maybe a hundred promotions in there. And they all had their addresses. So I made tapes and a hundred of these every week, and I mailed them out to everybody. Uh famously sending them to the WWF. Uh where later on, and again, I'm getting ahead of myself, but where Finkel came to me and said, You're gonna get a job one day, please quit sending these tapes because I have to watch them and log them in, and it's the same thing every week. He's like, I know who you are, we know who you are, you'll get a job eventually. Quit sending these tapes in.

SPEAKER_01 22:45

So for the love of God, for the love of God. I can't watch your two-hour tape. Uh what I can't do it. I uh you're killing me.

SPEAKER_03 22:55

Yeah, yeah. So that was probably about the time that I that I shortened it to about 10 minutes, which was like a little music video without music, because I didn't have the ability to put music on it. Because I'm I'm editing this thing on a VCR. I mean, right, because everything was analog back then. Either you had a TV facility or you didn't. Um, which is funny because I told Cornette about this on my last uh Smoky Mountain taping. We hadn't even got to that yet. But um I said, I he's like, what can I do to help you get booked? And I said, I need a demo match. I need a squash match where I can showcase my moves in offense. I don't have anything that shows offense really well. So he put me in there against, I think, Anthony as the inferno. And I um and I I squashed him and got my and did my moves. Well, I never got the tape. So there's this wonderful squash match that would probably have made me WWE champion had anybody saw it. I'm just kidding, it would not have made me WWE champion. But um, you know, I was so happy to get it, and then I never got it. So you would have to update, you know, if you got a match that was really good, you would want to put it on your demo tape and you would want to send that tape out immediately to everybody. And I had bought an RCA video camcorder, one of those big camcorders. I spent a thousand dollars on this thing. And uh I would take it to the show and tape all of my matches that I that I could. Now I couldn't do that on the road as often, but um, you know, locally in the Smoky Mountain house shows and stuff, I taped a lot of that stuff. In fact, uh Cornette used some of the footage um on the TV show of the other matches because I happened to have a good quality camera there. So I I I tried to update to answer your question, long story longer, I tried to update it as much as possible, but was limited by the technology of the time.

SPEAKER_01 25:18

Yeah, I mean that was the biggest reason I was asking was you know, because I mean nowadays you you just download an app and take your phone, you know, your phone is is a better camera than than you know, you're getting better quality resolution video than like a a TV station's camera.

SPEAKER_02 25:37

Right.

SPEAKER_01 25:37

It's just in your pocket, and you can just download an app to edit and uh add music and you know, I mean it's just so easy nowadays compared to what it was like back then, like you said, in an analog world. Um you know, and and and in order to make a two-hour tape, you had to run that whole two hours and put it on the tape. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 25:59

And you and first thing you had to have two VCRs and you had to have one that had the head cleaner perfect so that there was no tracking marks. Because if you had a you know a little tracking mark across it, they're not gonna want to watch that. That's not gonna be clear footage. So you wanted to try to get as clear TV footage as possible. So a lot of times my dad would tape the Smoky Mountain TV show on the the slowest possible way, the highest quality, and then I would dub it, you know, copy off of a copy off of a copy, trying to make it look as good as possible until you just couldn't make any more copies. It was a very tedious process. I remember also tasking my I was very lucky for all the things that my dad didn't get right. He did get the video work right. He was so awesome with taping my TV shows, uh, the shows that I like to watch, all the wrestling shows that was on, so that I could watch every second, even if I was on the road, and especially if I was on TV. So I tasked him with making these hundred um videos of me. You know, and that was back when BHS tapes were about a dollar a piece, two dollars a piece. So this wasn't cheap to do. And then, you know, you also had to stop uh and clean the heads of the VCRs in the middle of it, you know, for the tracking purposes so that you didn't get a bad dub. Because if you're on, say, tape 38 and you've got 60 more of these things to do, the last thing you want is a tracking mark.

unknown 27:45

Right.

SPEAKER_03 27:46

It was very, very smoke signal-ish kind of uh rock and flint and sticks and trying to make fire out of nothing.

SPEAKER_01 27:58

Yeah, man, but you but you did but you could do it. You could do it. You know what I mean? Like it just it was it was such a commitment in a way that it's not now, and you know, we could turn that into a whole conversation shaking our fists at the sky about the way things used to be compared to how they are now. But right it I just I I know that there are probably people that that are listening to this, and and and some of them are in the wrestling business now who don't quite grasp what it took to to do that. And that's why I wanted to bring it up is to give you the uh and I you and you you you delivered uh that was great information, but but that's exactly why I wanted to bring that up, is just to sort of illustrate how different it was.

SPEAKER_03 28:45

Um well it was a it was a tedious process, and it was the difference between getting booked all the time like I was was the due diligence. Every Monday you sat down with the phone, which was corded, and your address book, and you called, you started on the A's and you went all the way to the Z. You know, I would call Tully Blanchard and talk to him at Liberty University because he might know somebody that had a show.

SPEAKER_02 29:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 29:16

You know, I haven't talked to Tully Blanchard in 30 years. He probably has no idea who I am, but I was calling him every Monday, cold calling. Hey, uh I wanted Tim Horner's kids just trying to look for work. Do you know anywhere? You know, and that and you had to do that prior to email and websites. You had the word of mouth and phone numbers, and I tell you that was one good thing that Bo James was good at. Bo James had everybody's phone number.

SPEAKER_02 29:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 29:45

And we would sit and on on a night that we had off, we would sit till four in the morning and uh trade phone numbers of people.

SPEAKER_02 29:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 29:55

So that we we could have the biggest database of promoters to try to get booked. And you'd have to call and you'd have to make a relationship with that guy. You'd have to talk him into booking you, and then you'd have to talk them into booking you for a good amount of money.

SPEAKER_01 30:13

But that's all that's go ahead. Sorry.

SPEAKER_03 30:16

Well, that's just where a Smoky Mountain and a Mississippi and all that St. Louis, Canada, that's where that stuff comes in for these local promoters because you're like, you know, I just got back from Canada. I just got back from Mississippi, and you know, I was on Smoky Mountain TV. It sounded impressive because it was. Nobody not everybody was doing that then. Like, and I'm not I'm you're gonna use this as an example. This is not putting anybody down. But let's take uh uh Stan Lee and an Eddie Golden, who were two of the best wrestlers in East Tennessee history. Yeah, they didn't want to travel as much as I did. So that they they were every bit as good as I was, if not better. They worked uh as much locally as I did, but they didn't pursue it as much. And they had a limited range of where they would go, um, which is nothing is wrong with that. They were very successful of that, and I'm very proud of them. But that's the difference between two guys like that and a guy like me. Um and it's it was just what you were willing the effort to put into to see what you could get back out.

SPEAKER_01 31:30

Right. Right. And that's something you learn too when you travel so much owning your craft, is that there are guys like Stan and Eddie everywhere.

SPEAKER_02 31:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:43

That that you would know unless you went to that area, but when you're there, you realize, wow, these guys are good. You know what I mean? Like they are they are they are like you said, as good as anybody else, if not better. But but yeah, everybody's got their own priorities and preferences, and you know, it's I mean the road is tough. It is, it's it's not, it's not you know, you get so romanticized and you understand why, but you know, until you live it, you you just don't get the whole thing physically and mentally and emotionally. Um not to go down a dark a dark path with that, but you know, um shout out shout out to Stan and Eddie.

SPEAKER_03 32:36

Uh oh yeah. Love those guys.

SPEAKER_01 32:38

You did a great you did a great job of putting over the first time they came up.

SPEAKER_03 32:42

I love those guys.

SPEAKER_01 32:44

Yeah, I've I've I've been around Stan a lot more than Eddie and uh you know always always enjoyed my time around Stan. Um yeah, just uh just like you said, a couple a couple of guys who while they while they didn't have the the desire to travel as much as as you did, um two of the best. I mean, just two really fantastic workers.

SPEAKER_03 33:06

And Eddie is one of the funniest fucking guys I've ever met in my life. He's one of those guys that I love sitting next to because you know you're gonna laugh. And he doesn't even do it on purpose, he's just funny. You know, just the way he talks, the cadence of the way he talks, and just enjoys what he does and has a good time doing it. I mean, it just it's a breath of fresh air when you got those guys on a show with you.

SPEAKER_01 33:35

For sure, for sure. So as you are starting to travel and you're and you're just you're just nose nose to the stone, you know, like you said, every Monday in that address book on the phone, and making all these tapes and sending them to all those addresses in in uh PWI.

WCW Pay And No Catering

SPEAKER_01 33:55

So you're starting to get your first opportunities at WCW. And that brings us to you you were you talked about getting paid for a night off. And I just want to know what the catering situation was at WCW in 1995.

SPEAKER_03 34:14

Non-existent.

SPEAKER_01 34:16

They didn't have it, didn't have it.

SPEAKER_03 34:18

I if you were Sting, you they they had a sub one of those big uh $200 subway subs that you know the the the the kind like uh this is gonna help the the listener. The kind like we had at WFS, the the great big subway subs that are real expensive, if you were a Sting or a Rick Flair, you got that and some coffee. But if you were a low-rung enhancement talent jobber, you know the only thing you saw of that was to happen to see the table in the room. And you didn't dare you didn't dare go in that room. Right, right. Because you were gonna get heat if you went in that room.

SPEAKER_02 34:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 34:59

You know, and then the funny thing is, is they wouldn't there's a lot of nights, they wouldn't even eat most of it. And I'm on the road starving to death, and would literally kill the guy next to me to get a part of that sandwich, and they're just not even eating it.

SPEAKER_01 35:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 35:14

But you can't go in there and get it because you it's it's the pecking order, the way that it worked. Right.

SPEAKER_01 35:21

Well, that was WCW for you.

SPEAKER_03 35:24

It was the the Ten Buck Two Community College. But uh at the time though, you know, it was I didn't know that. You know, I hadn't spent a lot of time there, so I thought, well, this has got to be a step up. You know, it's good the money's better, the matches are better, the the arena's cooler, and you know, so it still had that allure when I got there.

SPEAKER_00 35:51

Yeah, for sure. Well, and I mean the payday was good too. Yeah, the payday was anything to see that.

SPEAKER_03 35:57

No, the only bad thing about the payday is later on, is their pay deal was screwy. So if it let's just say it ended at a four o'clock on a Saturday, you might have a match at 315 and you get paid that week, and you might have a match at five o'clock and you get paid two weeks later for that match, even though it happened on the same day.

SPEAKER_02 36:25

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 36:26

So I had I had an eighteen hundred dollar check one time that literally came in over a period of like eight weeks. They just kept sending me $150. And I was like, oh my God, I mean it was it was killing me because I needed to pay rent, I needed, you know, I needed to catch up, and I had planned for oh, I'm gonna get eighteen hundred dollars, this is gonna be great, and it just took forever to get that money. But that's the way WCW was.

SPEAKER_01 36:58

Yeah, yeah. So I got a few more things, so don't get super long-winded on this, but got it. What what was the first show you remember there being catering? And what was your reaction?

SPEAKER_03 37:11

WWE um when I went up and did the job or went down and did the job in uh Birmingham, Alabama, my first raw, my tryout.

SPEAKER_01 37:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 37:24

And I had uh uh salmon, baked salmon. Oh wow, and it was funny because I thought it was baked chicken, and I I I like I like salmon, but I'm not that big of a fan, and I got two two helpings of it, thinking it was two chicken breasts, and I bit into it and was like, oh, this is not chicken. But I didn't want to admit that I was so green I didn't even know what salmon was. But I tell you what, I was hungry enough to eat the son of a bitch, though.

SPEAKER_01 37:53

Yeah, I'm sure you were. I'm sure you were.

Stiff Road Warrior Clones And Legends

SPEAKER_01 37:57

Um, that's great. So uh you brought up a team called the Nighthawks, and you sort of laid out how they were this Road Warrior ripoff, which uh was uh still a thing in 1995, I guess. Um you wouldn't think so, but here we are. Um my only question about the Nighthawks were uh is were they as stiff as the actual road warriors?

SPEAKER_03 38:23

They were twice as stiff as the Road Warriors. Having worked with Hawk and worked with these two guys, they were stiff, very stiff. But the one guy was the steroid guy. So we were gonna put him over no matter what, because he was the guy that got us the steroids.

SPEAKER_02 38:42

There you go.

SPEAKER_03 38:44

And I haven't seen him in 30 years, so I don't know what his deal is, so I can stooge off that he was selling steroids.

SPEAKER_01 38:54

So, in addition to the Nighthawks, we're adding some names to your list of opponents. Um, you mentioned Hawk. You were on a show with Hawk here, the story about getting stiffed, and Hawk kind of saying, Don't pay me because I'm not gonna kick your ass, but one of these guys definitely will, so pay them. Yeah, I mean you still didn't get paid. But anyhow, so we had uh Jerry Lawler in a battle royal, and and you were so excited to talk about that. So so you actually got to physically work with Lawler in this battle royal.

SPEAKER_03 39:28

Yeah, we um it's uh uh it was a Royal Rumble, and at some point me and him were both baby faces, so we were making the duel come back in the corners with the punches. So at the same time, we're doing the the big Memphis style punches, and then somehow we turn and we end up fighting each other for a little bit, and that was really cool.

SPEAKER_01 39:51

Yeah, that sounds cool. That sounds cool. So then you you add uh Abdullah the Butcher, your first encounter with him, and uh he'll he'll get brought up again for sure.

SPEAKER_03 40:03

Oh yeah. Um loved Abby. I mean, that was that was one of the big moments to this day, um, marking out uh of somebody that I worked with because I loved Abby as as a uh as a wrestling fan, I was a huge Abdullah fan. And then to play with him, his action figure, he was on every card. So I mean, if let's say I played every night, which I did, and I had five matches or five different cards a night, Abby was on all of them. So all of a sudden, we're talking a few years, you know, three or four years later, I'm in the ring with Abdullah the butcher. Yeah, and it's also a cool thing that I was kind of scared of him.

SPEAKER_01 40:50

Right.

SPEAKER_03 40:50

Until we got working, and then I was like, oh, okay, he's gonna take care of me. This is pretty cool, and then that made me want to work harder for him.

SPEAKER_01 40:58

Right. Yeah, he was definitely a frightening presence. Um I remember reading about him in the magazines and just being terrified. You know, one of those guys that that made you go say what you want about everybody else. That guy's real. Yeah, like that guy's really killing people.

SPEAKER_03 41:20

Like well, I mean, I wasn't smart to the business. I mean, I wasn't I was smarter than I knew I was smart. Does that make sense? Like I I wasn't smart to the business, but I noticed things, but I just didn't admit them. You could see the razor blades on his hands as a fan. So you knew something was going on with that dude, you know, and then he pulled the fork out and he would hit Cactus Jack as hard as he could with the fork. I mean, there was no seeing through those moves.

unknown 41:52

Right.

SPEAKER_03 41:53

So he was definitely a legit guy that was an enigma until you actually get in there and work with him.

SPEAKER_01 42:00

Yeah.

Ron Simmons Fixes The Doink Disaster

SPEAKER_01 42:01

So shortly after this, we had Ron Simmons.

SPEAKER_02 42:05

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 42:06

Your first encounter with Ron Simmons. Um, sort of at the peak for him, I th especially physically. I think this was this was right when he was in between WCW and his run as Farouk, and he was in like peak physical condition at this point.

unknown 42:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:25

Just an ox.

SPEAKER_03 42:26

Well, they they had me, but this was for Henry Hubbard, who well, Henry Hubbard was a piece of work, man. He was he was something. He was not the greatest promoter in the world, and he was not the greatest guy in the world. Yet at the same time, he was kind of a nice dude. You know what I mean? He was just he couldn't help being a slime ball. But uh he booked me as doink, and I my c my Doink costume wasn't ready yet. So he had the bright idea. He said, Um, a clown's a clown. I rented you a clown outfit. And he rented a legit clown outfit that looked nothing like Doink, that had the bell bottom pants and the rainbow thing, uh, hair deal. So I go out, and this place was packed in St. Louis. It was a school, and there was all kinds of people in there. And I came out the dressing room door, and there was no big entranceways back then, and somebody snatched my wig off of my head.

SPEAKER_01 43:28

Oh gosh.

SPEAKER_03 43:29

I didn't know what to do, so I turned around and went back. Well, I opened that door, and Ron Simmons is standing there, bigger than life. And he was like, What are you doing? And I and I said, They took my hair, I don't know what to do. And he said, Go to the ring. You don't ever come back through the dressing room before a match. You don't ever do that. You go to the ring. So I got the hair back, I put the hair on. We did get through the introductions and everything. I feel like an idiot. Look like an idiot. I'm scared to death. We lock up, and the first thing he does is take that wig off and throw it to the crowd. He said, He said, fuck this, we'll just work a match. And we did, and we worked a match, and it was good. And he about power slammed me through the fucking canvas.

SPEAKER_01 44:19

That's a great story that I'm I'm not sure I've ever heard that.

SPEAKER_03 44:23

Yeah, and that's how mine and Ron Simmons's friendship started out of pure fear. And we're we're every time we see each other, we laugh about it.

SPEAKER_01 44:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 44:35

Because I was scared to death. It was was I more scared of the crowd or was I more scared of Ron? And I'll tell you, I was more scared of Ron.

SPEAKER_02 44:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 44:44

So but by the second night, we went out there and he did the same thing. They didn't snatch it off of me, but he did the same thing the second night and pulled it off and threw it to the crowd, and and then we just worked. And it was so much easier and smoother the second night.

SPEAKER_01 45:02

Yeah, yeah. That's great. So uh I don't know if if if you misspoke when you read this match, but I I don't feel like you did, and I'm and I need some explanation.

SPEAKER_03 45:17

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 45:18

So you read this match as in the infernos versus Anthony Michaels and Ron Cumberland.

SPEAKER_03 45:26

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 45:27

Who's the other inferno?

SPEAKER_03 45:31

That's a good question. Who was the other inferno?

SPEAKER_01 45:34

If Anthony's on the other team, who were you tagging with it's the inferno?

SPEAKER_03 45:40

I have no idea. But if if if it uh the the match is correct as it is written down, um it was probably James the other remember me mentioning James Atkins um from the Smoky Mountain School?

SPEAKER_01 45:59

Yeah, the guy the guy that we when you were too good to be the guy that got beat up all the time, they brought in another guy to get beat up.

SPEAKER_03 46:06

Yeah, I would now this is me guessing right off the top of my head with new information that's just presented to me. I'm gonna guess it was him.

SPEAKER_01 46:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 46:16

Because I can't think of anybody else that would have been available for them to stick in there. And obviously that person was just there to do the job.

SPEAKER_01 46:25

Right, right.

SPEAKER_03 46:28

But uh yeah, I didn't even think about that. Uh but that is wild that there was another inferno.

SPEAKER_01 46:36

Yeah, I just uh I I I I heard it once and and I I had to back it up and go, did I hear that right? Yeah. And uh yeah, I just uh I yeah, I don't I don't know. It just it struck me that the that Anthony Michaels was against the Invernos.

SPEAKER_03 46:55

Well, I'll tell you who it wasn't, it wasn't Mike Rapotta.

SPEAKER_01 47:03

Oh gosh, we'll what we get to that. Is that the next episode?

SPEAKER_03 47:06

That is that is next week, yes. We will get to that next week. That's why I said that. But oh man. But yeah, the the the Phantom Inferno. We have we have uncovered a mystery.

SPEAKER_01 47:21

A mystery indeed.

SPEAKER_03 47:22

And so the way it is back then, it could have literally been anybody.

SPEAKER_01 47:27

Well, it could be one of those things where you you never knew. It was just somebody that got thrown in there. It could be that you never saw again. I mean, it we've already encountered that a couple times if you're going through the journals, and and we're and we're like a year in. I mean, it's it's it really is is just one of those things that, you know, and and yeah, I mean, when you're when you're working this much and you're on the road so much, sometimes you're just like, I don't know who that guy was that I worked with the other night, you know.

SPEAKER_03 47:56

Well, a lot of times, like these loops, you know, Knoxville to Mississippi to St. Louis to Ohio, you're you're so tired, you just you want to do a good job, but you just want to get the match over with, get paid, and go get a beer. Or a sandwich.

SPEAKER_01 48:13

Right.

SPEAKER_03 48:14

Or meet a young lady, or all the above. If you did it right, yeah, if you did it right, it'd be all the above.

Doink Money And Knowing Your Worth

SPEAKER_01 48:24

So you you you mentioned the the doint fiasco for the first time in this episode, and I I don't know that I would bring this up this early on, except you are the one the one who initially brought it up.

SPEAKER_02 48:41

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 48:44

And if there's a better time down the road for us to get into this, please tell me and we will table it. But talk about that joint gimmick. I guess the two things I'm most interested in with you as joint are number one, and I mean obviously I kind of know the answer to this, but just for the the listener, why was that damn gimmick so popular? Why was it used so heavily? And when exactly do you like what memory do you have of the point where you were like, oh no, this is really for lack of a better way to put it, this is fucking.

SPEAKER_03 49:29

Well, I I think uh Doink was so over on TV as a heel that he doesn't get enough credit. That when we look back, it's like, okay, that's when they went really cartoony and all this. But see, he was he was not meant to be cartoony in the way that everybody thinks of it today. And he was a really good wrestling heel, and it was really hot, and Matt Bourne played that so well, and it was just an extension of Matt Bourne. And when he got booked, he got released and got booked on all these independent shots, and then got put in jail, that initially left the door open for somebody, which was me, to to step in, thanks to Scott Damore. But I think they realized they could have a WWE superstar, they being promoters, if they would just buy the outfit. They could literally stick anybody in there. And then there was a couple of guys like Preston Steele and Tony Apollo, who was actually one of the guys, and I think Preston Steele did a couple TVs with them, um, who who took to the gimmick and did the gimmick the whole time, the full time, the the right way. But I think it was just a cheap way to put WWE Superstar on the card and get you some clout that you wouldn't normally have and it wouldn't cost you any extra money. And it just snowballed way out of control. And as far as it getting out of control for me, I was going down to Augusta, Georgia. I can't remember the promoter's name, and he's gonna kill me for it, but he was a super nice guy. He was a school teacher, and uh uh uh his college frat sponsored all these shows, and he had an end to all the schools. So he had Doink come to the schools. So I would go to all these rural urban schools as Doink the Clown at 2 o'clock in the afternoon and sign autographs and then wrestle that night. And that was cool the first four or five times. And then it was okay, well, we do the Doink, and then I'll let you work as yourself, and then you can sell merchandise for you and get yourself over and all this stuff. It was kind of a you know, you help me, I'll help you kind of thing. Well, it got to the point of it was just doink, and I actively started trying to tear the costume up. Like I would intentionally try to rip the tights or tear up the head, the mask, um, the head part of it. And for some reason, the lady who the the the lady I I had a girl who worked in the mall up here. Um my fiance at the time, she owned a sandwich shop at the Morristown Mall, and this lady worked uh at the chain gold buying inch store, and she was a seamstress, and she said she would make this costume for me for ten bucks.

unknown 52:41

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 52:42

And she made this thing like it was bulletproof. You could not tear this thing up. And I tried, and I tried to rip it and pull on it and just get rid of it. And finally, I I gave it away. I gave it to Drake Tungsten and and who who still has the gimmick, and I said, I just don't I I'm leaving this in the building. If you want to take it, take it, but I'm leaving it right here to never see it again. And then I just told promoters I don't have the outfit anymore, because it got to the point that if I had the outfit, they would throw money at me until I would have to do it.

SPEAKER_02 53:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 53:23

And it was because I did it so well because I did it just like Matt Bourne. A lot of these other guys would do the comedy spots. Okay, that's great in the beginning, but when it came down to the heat and stuff, or the in the babyface part of this, he would wrestle, wrestle. So he would do the couple funny spots and then he would wrestle, wrestle. And then doing the thing with the um the pictures to where it was actually me.

unknown 53:52

Right.

SPEAKER_03 53:52

And it just got over and it got out of control and took on a life of its own, and I just I hated every second of it.

SPEAKER_02 54:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 54:00

But it paid the bills, it made a lot of money. A lot of money.

SPEAKER_02 54:04

Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 54:05

Because it well, you know, I might make 50 bucks for wrestling, but I might make three hundred dollars selling pictures. And see, I didn't keep track of what I made on the the merchandise. I don't know why I didn't do that, but I didn't do it.

SPEAKER_01 54:20

Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, and you know, that's that's serious money. I mean, that's yeah. That's a damn good night, you know. That's if you know, if you if you get fifty bucks from the promotion and then you make 300 at the table, that's 350 bucks for a night's work. Yeah, that's yeah.

SPEAKER_03 54:37

I mean, I remember the first night that I did it in Canada, I made $300 the first night a Canadian, and I made excuse me, made $500 the second night Canadian. I made $800 in a weekend just by merchandise.

SPEAKER_01 54:56

Wow. That's crazy. Yeah, that's crazy.

SPEAKER_03 55:00

Yeah, and just a real quick note on that. Uh, I was making such good money, Anthony Michaels, he hates it when I tell this story, was wanted to come to Canada. I was making so much money he had to get in on it. He had to get in on it. I said, You need to call Scott Damore and work out a deal because they're gonna pay you what you negotiate for. And he wouldn't call them. And he's like, Oh, they'll just give me what they give you. I said, Man, I'm telling you, they're not gonna do that. He went up there to Canada for his first loop and made $18 Canadian for three days total.

SPEAKER_01 55:35

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_03 55:37

He was so pissed. And I and I said, I told you so. I told you. Shortly after that, he left Arkansas because we were doing uh Canada in Arkansas, and he went to ECW to become Snot Dudley.

SPEAKER_01 55:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 55:56

So yeah, so that's always negotiate your money no matter what you think you're getting.

SPEAKER_01 56:04

Yeah, well, I mean there's a great lesson in there because it it almost shows promoters what you think you're worth, and they're gonna pay you what you think you're worth.

SPEAKER_03 56:13

Yeah. Well, I mean, and Scott, okay, Scott's a great guy. Scott was a gr is a great promoter. He's not cheap. That's just he just paid him like a local guy because he didn't negotiate anything better.

SPEAKER_02 56:26

Right.

SPEAKER_03 56:27

So that was totally on Anthony's fault, and that's why he hates for me to tell the story. I mean he hates it. It's he's seething mad when I tell it. Love you, Ant.

Working Mark Curtis Without The Mask

SPEAKER_01 56:42

Alright, so um last thing I've got from from this episode, in your exploits as going, uh, you worked Mark Curtis. Yeah. And with I so I knew because I read about it in the magazines when Calabunga the Turtle was unmasked and revealed to be Mark Curtis, which to me was like the most shocking thing I'd ever read.

SPEAKER_03 57:08

Right.

SPEAKER_01 57:08

Um, because I was so into Calabunga the Turtle, and obviously I knew who Mark Curtis was. And I just I had never seen Calabunga the Turtle. You know what I mean? Like I'd only read about it in the magazine.

SPEAKER_03 57:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 57:21

So to hear that all this time, this this gimmick that I was so infatuated with was actually Mark Curtis was, you know, nothing against Mark, but it was kind of a letdown.

SPEAKER_03 57:32

Um it's probably mind-blowing.

SPEAKER_01 57:35

It was. So uh I don't ever remember hearing or reading about Mark Curtis working as himself. So kind of walk me through that and how that worked.

SPEAKER_03 57:45

Well, it was just a little spot town. Um and uh I want to say that it was a deal uh through a through a college again. So it was one of those deals where you it's a little spot town, but there was like a thousand people there. And um he just wanted to work as himself that night.

unknown 58:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 58:06

So that's you know, he he worked as himself without the hood. Um I wanna I'm vaguely, I think he came out as Terry Funk wearing jeans and a towel around his neck and doing all that that stuff. But Mark was such a uh Brian, Brian Hildebrand's his real name, uh, was such an accomplished wrestler. Um but because of his size and the and the time period that he was at his peak, he was way too small. So he never would get a match, he was never big enough to even do jobs. But he was so accomplished, and his dropkick was so beautiful, and I can still feel they they're so painful. He would drop kick you right in the throat. And you know, back then we were into realism, so God forbid we put our hand up, we just let him kick me right in my esophagus, you know. Yeah, and probably why my voice is raspy, one of the reasons that and the 900 cigarettes I smoke. But, you know, he was so good, and it really was a night off. I know that's said a lot, but it it's never truer in this sense. And it was just fun. It was one of those matches that was there was no pressure, and you're just going out there to work, and there's a good crowd, there's a good payday, no one's ever gonna see this out outside of this building, no one's really gonna know about it because we didn't know we were gonna do all this. And uh, you know, it was just it was a fun thing, and I'm glad we got to do it uh since he's passed on.

Looking Ahead Plus Sponsors

SPEAKER_01 59:45

All right, well, that's everything I had. I thought it was a good episode, and and I'm just I'm so excited that we're really getting into uh we're getting into this time period where you're kind of all over the place. So so there's new adventures waiting at every turn.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:01

Yeah, we're really getting into the meat and potatoes of of the things going on. Um and it's weird we're getting into 95, which was the worst year personally I ever had in my life. And it's nice to tell this story for once without the personal aspect. And I'm starting to see that, you know, even as miserable as I was personally and privately, the work was pretty good. The work didn't suffer at all because of it, and that's that's fun to look back at it now and and be redeemed on this time period. So I'm very excited that we're going through this time period right now.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:41

Yeah, me too.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:43

All right, well, uh, real quick, let's pay some bills before we go. Uh, be sure to check out all of my social media. Instead of going through everything real quick, just go to IamYourChampion.com. Right there on the front page are links to all the TikToks and the Facebook and Instagram and all that. It's your one-stop shop for all of the social media, all the links there. Um, if you haven't already, go over to I Am Your Champion exclamation point on YouTube. Thank you guys for subscribing. Uh, if you haven't subscribed yet, if you will, I would greatly appreciate it. But we really saw uh are seeing that grow. Today's show is brought to you by W Energy Drinks. Be sure to use promo code YOURCHAPING for 10% off at checkout. W Energy Drinks, zero sugar, no artificial colors or flavors, no secret formulas, no hidden ingredients, and gluten-free. It's made in the USA, and it has clarity and smooth energy, sharper mental focus. Like I said, no added sugars, very unique flavor flavors like cherry, uh, lime or retro rainbow sherbet, uh, Japanese use of Japanese uh soda, some more, lunar, strawberry, margarita, all kinds of great flavors there. Uh, it has about 150 milligrams of caffeine per serving. And I use this daily. I used it today. Um when I hit my second shift uh and get that two o'clock, three o'clock drop off. This saves my behind when I'm working with the puppy. So go to W.gg. Use promo code YOURCHAPING for 10% off. This has been a production of Three Crows Entertainment. And uh for Dallas, I am your champion. I am your champion. Oh man, that's classic. I love it. I'm gonna climb that ladder of success all the way to the top.