The Ride Home

How A Pink Mask And A VCR Explain Wrestling

• 3 Crows Entertainment • Season 1 • Episode 12

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A masked Pink Panther coming out to the theme song sounds like pure fun until you hear what it was really for: surviving the grind, working twice on tiny cards, and trying to make outlaw shows feel like professional wrestling. We start with how Brian’s match journals are built, why the small details matter, and how a father’s chicken-scratch handwriting turns into a living record of towns, pay, bumps, and the choices that shape a 30-year run.

Then we get honest about the late-90s shift that feels like the birth of independent wrestling as we know it. The deeper the scene gets, the more you run into promoters chasing “one-night pops,” workers learning on the fly, and locker rooms full of competing agendas. Along the way, we unpack a painful what-if career derailed by injury, a Mark Goldberg rib that somehow turns into WCW TV time, and the kind of dysfunction that makes you ask what anyone is doing there.

The biggest takeaway is simple and blunt: don’t work for free. We talk about what paying your dues actually means, why even a dollar changes the relationship, and why paying talent as soon as they arrive builds trust and better shows. You’ll also hear a Fourth of July Iron Sheik highlight, why promoters keep renaming wrestlers, how “The Player” nickname is born over lunch, and the cautionary chaos of Freebird Buddy Rose.

If you like behind-the-scenes wrestling stories with real lessons about money, respect, and craft, subscribe, share this with a friend, and leave a review. What’s the wildest “outlaw show” moment you’ve ever heard?

Welcome Back And Show Premise

SPEAKER_00

I am your champion. Oh man, that's classic. I love it. I'm gonna climb that ladder of success all the way to the top. Along with my best friend and colleague, Dallas Danger. Dallas, how you been this week?

SPEAKER_01

Not bad. I've had a pretty decent week, all things considered. Happy to be back on the air with our wonderful loyal listeners. And of course, uh always nice to talk to you, my friend.

SPEAKER_00

It is. It's been a good week. I'm glad that we're back on the air. I missed it for a week. Um I enjoy these sessions so much, and I'm just glad that we're we're alive and able to tell our stories. So uh a lot of good stuff going on. Um at this point, I will turn this over to you. Uh well, let me tell everybody what we're doing. We have uh a podcast called Making the Towns, where I've been in professional wrestling and entertainment for over 30 years, and I kept journals of the uh the dates, the times, the money, the bumps, everything, and we're going through that, talking about all the matches that I've had. And this is the ride home. This is as if we are coming from the show. The previous show, Making the Towns, is as we're going to the towns, and I'm telling you in the car about my career. The ride home is us rebooking the territory as you do when you come home from a wrestling show. And Dallas asks me questions and we expand on what we talked about on making the towns. So without further ado, got that right this week, uh I will turn it over to you and your research notes, pal. Research notes.

SPEAKER_01

I like the way you put that. Yes, I'm very I'm in the lab listening to Making the Towns every year.

SPEAKER_00

You have a whole team of Oompa Loompas, and they're uh and they're they're going through every aspect of my career with databases and uh like the old 60s computers like uh that have the big spreadsheets that come out that are like bigger than a room and it's a whole thing over there.

SPEAKER_01

I was thinking more like Muppet Labs. There's there's there's there's Muppets and things are exploding and it's chaos and yes, yes.

SPEAKER_00

Beaker is running around trying to to mix something up as as you're taking notes on the pot. I I would love that. Could you imagine living with a bunch of Muppets?

SPEAKER_01

I I I have thought quite a bit about that actually.

SPEAKER_00

That would rock, man. That would be so much fun to just be like in a house, like a uh a frat house with a bunch of muppets.

SPEAKER_01

Or like what if the real world was like it is in the movies with the Muppets, where there's like you could be like the only human within a certain radius, and everybody else that you're interacting with is Muppets.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, I would love that. I would totally the world would be so much better for me if that's the way it was.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I could I couldn't agree more.

SPEAKER_00

I mean, if the puppies were in charge and could talk, my world would be so much better. I could just deal with life so much easier that way.

SPEAKER_01

All right, so I actually thought of something that I didn't have in my notes while you were given the premise of the show.

How The Match Journals Are Kept

SPEAKER_01

Okay. So how much detail is in the journals? And at and like at what point did you get start getting like really consistent with the with the formula of how it's written and the information that you that you have?

SPEAKER_00

Okay, well, the first gosh, let's see. Let me see if I can narrow this down. The first couple of hundred matches, my dad wrote them because I was on the road and I would write I would keep my notes in a calendar and write down like everybody else does in the industry, they would write their stuff in the little block on the calendar. So most of the first couple of hundred matches um is in his writing and his doing. It looks like here in nine seven of ninety-six is where I started to take over because it's my writing. And then that's when it got a little more detailed. So there was uh a lot more um organized with the way it's set up, where the places of everything goes, um, whose shows they were, stuff like that. Just the little details that that we left out. Mostly anything I could think of that needed to be written down, I would add to it once I had taken over um keeping the journals.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah. Cool. All right. Well, I don't know. We may have touched on some of that. I I I I feel like in the beginning we mentioned that your dad wrote the because you I I I want to say on the podcast you had a you had some trouble reading his handwriting a couple times.

SPEAKER_00

I did, yeah. He he he has uh chicken scratches handwriting and it his uh uh he he had a broke hand. He was putting in a um a uh we had a fireplace and he put a wood burning stove in the firing fireplace and he got frustrated and he just tried to jam it in and he ended up breaking his right hand. So his handwriting went all to hell after that because I guess his hand was in pain and and it and it didn't heal you know 100% correctly as they tend to do and all that. So so the ends of his words kind of tail off a little bit in with his writing. So you kind of have to know how to read old Bill Keyes' uh you know, chicken scratch there to get through some of this.

SPEAKER_01

Sure. Yeah. All right, well, let's let's get

Creating The Pink Panther Gimmick

SPEAKER_01

into it. Um we don't have to spend a ton of time on this first one. I just kind of was interested in this because this is not an element of your career that I remember ever hearing about. So I want to talk about the Panther a little bit. Okay, um you did a good job of kind of illustrating why you came up with a mass gimmick, sort of a lucid or gimmick. Uh I want to know more about the idea, the conceptualization. You mentioned it was sort of an homage to Tiger Mask. But I I mean, like, was it I want to do an homage to Tiger Mask and you built the details around that, or I just kind of want to know more why pink? Anything you can give me on what you were thinking when you kind of came up with that gimmick.

SPEAKER_00

Well, that was the time where WCW was uh had brought back Pillman and they were gonna structure the cruiserweight division around Pillman. And a lot of the guys were coming up with uh alternate gimmicks because they were you know gonna stick guys in there to do jobs. They were also gonna give people you know places to go. Uh this was a little bit later on because this was nitro, but to give you an example was like Jerry Lynn and Mr. JL. You you know, you kind of knew it was Jerry Lynn if you were, you know, halfway paying attention, but uh Mr. JL was, you know, was a lucha gimmick, you know, and had the kick pads and all that stuff. So that was the the idea and the birth of it was to come up with something uh that that maybe grow into something later on. Uh I was a Bret Hart fan, so I love the pink and black, but pink never really, even though I was the player, I didn't get to wear pink a lot. And I and I hate that because I really like the color pink. I just for some reason I'm just not a a pink uh wrestling guy. Um I think I've only owned a couple pairs of pink tights other than the Panther in my career, and I didn't wear them that often. And uh so I decided to go with the pink colors, and uh when I sat down with Juanita Timms and told her I want a lucha gimmick and all this, she was like, Well, what if I make you a tiger mask that's pink and black? And I said, Oh, that's perfect. And she's like, and I said, I have a black butcher, and she's like, Well, I'll just make you some kick pads and um a pair of pink tights to go underneath, and it's not that expensive. It's you know, 50 bucks, and you've got a whole outfit. And uh, as she's making that, I'm sitting there, you know, a as the boys will do, they will bullshit and come up with ideas, as we do here, to, you know, of the gimmick. So by the time she had them done, we had the whole story of the Pink Panther. And it was and it was the Pink Panther. He literally came out to the Pink Panther theme song. So that that was kind of the deal. And then when I was up there and uh for Hawkins and all those guys in West Virginia, they wanted me to do jobs, work twice. Um I didn't want to I didn't have the Inferno outfit anymore. I didn't want to do Doink. I didn't have the Kendo stuff anymore, and I just I needed something that I could satisfy them but still get it over. So I basically workshopped the Panther gimmick trying to figure out from scratch what this guy did and what he was doing, and kind of just played around with it and had fun. Um the problem that I had with him was the guys that I worked with were the smaller guys, which I loved working with smaller guys because I could do the the cruiserweight stuff. Well, in WCW, I was about the cruiserweight size. 6'1, about 230, 240, somewhere around in there. But these guys on the independence were like 5'9, 5'6. So when I was the Panther would be way taller than those guys were. So it was hard to get across doing these moves to these smaller guys. That you know, and that that was the first rung of guys getting smaller, you know, and and and really I don't I love these guys. Some of them were great draws and and very, you know, Richie Action. Love Richie Action to this day. Good friend, smaller guy, incredible worker, great gimmick. But some of these other guys probably shouldn't have been in the business. They just weren't big enough. You know, Richie Action did um, he made up for his small smallness with his ability and agility and overcame all that with his storytelling because he was that good. Some of these other guys, like Joey Austin, he did the Stone Cold gimmick, which was cool at the time and and really worked on these independent shows, but he wasn't big enough to be in the wrestling business. I think he was like five five. I mean, he was almost a little person. Um, I mean, he wasn't, but but he was close to legally being one. And uh so that was just some of the problems that I had with size differential. So I didn't get to work out the the work L ethic, I guess, or the spots or the the moveset that the Panther needed for it to really go somewhere. But it fit but it fit pretty well with the you know doing jobs underneath because I could totally I didn't have tattoos at the time. I had one tattoo and I could cover that up easily with an elbow pad. So, you know, people didn't necessarily notice it was me.

SPEAKER_01

And that was going to be my next question was because I I know that you still had the hornet stuff because I now own that stuff. Right. Was it just that everybody up there already knew you were the Hornet?

SPEAKER_00

You were afraid, or I didn't really want to tarnish the Hornet, to be honest with you. I thought the Hornet was special, so I kind of left him in the Smoky Mountain world and didn't didn't really use him to do all this other stuff. Um I mean I could have. I just didn't. I just kinda I I didn't want to I didn't want to get the Hornet involved.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, fair enough, I guess. Fair enough.

A Promising Career Derailed By Injury

SPEAKER_01

So uh somebody that you you mentioned a lot, well, some people you mention a lot are the are the the the the Bryans. There were three Brians, you you always say. And um every time you you bring up the Brian that worked like the new Mr. Olympia game, every time he comes up, I don't know if it's the tone of your voice or the the the words you use, but I'm starting to get the impression that that injury at the power plant from doing all those squats could have derailed a pretty good career. So, from in your estimation, how high was his ceiling had it not been for those issues?

SPEAKER_00

Oh, I think he could have got a job. Uh he was 6'3, maybe at least, probably 260, 270, you know, not super jacked, but but in shape, you know what I'm saying? Like he wasn't the ultimate warrior, but he was he was in shape. He had abs. He had muscles. Um and a great guy and understood the business and everything. And I I I think he could have really done something in the business. His Mr. Olympia gimmick was incredible. I mean, he looked like a big he looked like Super Olympia. He looked like a bigger, bigger version of Mr. Olympia. Um and it and that got over in Alabama because that was the you know, Mission Olympia was the guy in Alabama.

SPEAKER_01

And uh Jesus like Alabama Bruno.

SPEAKER_00

Yes, absolutely. And you know, it's just a shame that that that he it it hurts me because he's such a nice guy and he he's so much talent. And they just they ruined him for the sake of ruining him. You know, they just had they had no reason to do what they did. And you know, he tried working on these shows, he just his mobility with his knees being blown out just couldn't he couldn't keep up with it.

SPEAKER_01

Well, speaking of how dysfunctional WCW was, uh I love the Mark Goldberg

The Mark Goldberg Rib And WCW Chaos

SPEAKER_01

Ribb story. Yeah. But I mean, how how ridiculous is it that that legitimately got him a job? I know. I mean, and and and it is well documented how dysfunctional for lack of another word WCW was. And people probably don't even know that story. Like that's not one that you're gonna hear maybe anywhere else than here, because my biggest question is did Mark Goldberg ever even find out it was a rib, or did he think he just got the job the whole time?

SPEAKER_00

He just thought he got the job. Well, I mean, he I I never saw him again once he went on TV. He didn't he he did his well, I saw him on TV, that's where I saw him, and uh he just went and did his little deal, and then I guess after he got done with that, he didn't work anymore around where we were working, and and we were working everywhere, so you know if we didn't see you, then were you even really working at all, you know, because we were all over the place. Nobody talked about him or anything. Um but no, I don't think he knew it was a rib, and it was supposed to be stone cold. We were trying to make it sound like stone cold, but he put two and two together and thought it was Goldberg. Yeah. And and then came, you know, he shaved shaved it, poor guy shaved his head and goatee, and he I mean he had the Goldberg gimmick down. I mean, it was if you remember it on TV, it it it was a parody, but it was a pretty good parody. I mean, I didn't care for it myself because I don't really care for parodies, but if if you had to pick one, it was a good one. You know, he did a good job at it. And uh, but yeah, I don't think he knew it was a rib. I think he thought it was a straight shoot the whole time. And why wouldn't he? Because of the way we did it. I mean, that was that was a good rib.

SPEAKER_01

Well, Mark Goldberg, if you just if you happen to be listening, now you know how you got your your work at WCW.

SPEAKER_00

You're welcome.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, you're you're welcome from from Brian. Yeah.

Waiting For The Call While Grinding

SPEAKER_01

Um, so I'm noticing the trend as we're rolling through 1998 here, and that is like there's a lot more random one-off shows. Um we'll get into a little bit later because you know I like to keep things chronological. Um so there's more to this potentially, but but at this point, I want to know if you're still in contact with Corney or the WWE, or are you just going, Corney told me to be patient, I'm being patient.

SPEAKER_00

I'm just being patient. Um at that point, Corney was just so busy you couldn't get him on the phone, and uh just waiting to waiting to hear back from him, and uh, you know, just biding my time doing all these little towns, hoping one day the the call would come.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, because to me it sounds miserable to be surrounded by like the fake homicide and this Freebird Buddy Rose guy and the and Stone Cold Joey Austin, like like you're telling these stories about these guys, and like you know, you're walking out of the match because it was so ridiculous and bad, and and it's just reminded me of times in my career where I was just like, What am I doing here?

SPEAKER_00

No, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

I mean, it just it's mis it's miserable.

SPEAKER_00

Well, and it was, it was completely miserable, but it was a job, and that's the thing, is that was my career. I had to go to work, I had to make money, and I was trying every single show to salvage it and make it make sense and have booking meetings and suggestions and get in people's ear and try to, hey, what if this guy does this with this guy, you know, and then the the backlash, it was constant fighting and arguing and drama as the independents, you know, are now. I mean, this is nothing new that's going on now. This started back then because of promoters being cheap, wanting to get the guys that are available, putting stupid gimmicks on them, thinking that it's gonna pop the crowd, but they're really just popping themselves, and just taking advantage of these guys instead of trying to make them better, just being amused and saying, well, we'll just do it for one show as a as a rib, but then it's a year later and you're still doing it, and you're wondering why why this is not panning out. You know, and it was miserable. I mean, I I and I was traveling by myself, which I like. I like traveling by myself, but I mean, it uh I actually prefer if I'm not traveling with you, I prefer to be by myself or Eric. You two guys are the guys I prefer to be with. If I can't be with you guys, then by myself. But um, you know, I'd be driving from Atlanta trying to think of ways to make this thing better and how to pitch it. And then you get there and you get shot down by, you know, I hate to bring her up again, but by Chrissy, of somebody that's not even in the business that's just like, no, that's terrible. You're not we shouldn't do that. And her telling her husband that we shouldn't do it went sh her big thing was, and and uh, and this can be discussed, she's like, Well, where's this invisible rule book that says we have to do all these things? And I was like, That's the traditional way that we have done wrestling since it was invented back in you know nineteen oh five, nineteen oh four, nineteen oh seven, whenever the hell it was invented. And that was the thing was they had never worked. On real shows, and to them it was an invisible rule book. And they had never seen the application and it done right. So they had no real incentive to try to do it right. They just wanted to do things that amused themselves. And that was that was just not good. And it and it was, it was miserable. It it really, really was. And then you never that's when it started. You really had to know your craft uh if you were in my position, because who knew who I would be working? You know, I could show up and work, you know, somebody that's fantastic or work somebody that just got into business two hours ago.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And then if the match went bad, it was my fault. You know, that's the thing, is they don't want to do anything traditionally until it went sideways. Then they traditionally want to chew me out because it was my responsibility to make it go right. You know.

The Birth Of The Indies Mindset

SPEAKER_01

That that kind of segues uh into something else I had in my notes. So so you you you referred to this time as the birth of the Indies, and that's a root that's like a a major theme of this show. Um, with with all these crazy wacky characters and all this nonsense that you just did a good job of laying out um how things were kind of changing. So was this something that you were able to have conversations about at the time with the other boys who were legitimate and new and knew knew you know came from the the right way of breaking in and all that? Or or is this more just something that you look back on now and and kind of have the the hindsight on? I mean, are was this something that was being talked about at any level in 1998?

SPEAKER_00

Well, you had the the guys that I ran around with, the the Bo Jameses, the the Roger and Franks, and the the Eddie Goldens and those guys, we would talk about how um how it was different than the real shows, but they hadn't really worked on a lot of real shows. They were still outlaw guys, outlaw meaning not part of a territory. So they were getting started, they they had all the talent in the world and all of the gumption to get out of being outlaws. They knew where they came from and how they were going to get to be legitimate. So there was kind of like layers. There was the guys like the white boys, the Tim Horners, the Tom Pritchards, um the well done's that I would see everywhere. Then there was the Bo Jameses, the the Roger and Franks, and then there were the rest of these guys.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And the I think the middle rung used the other guys the same way I kind of did for money and ring time, and just tried to get in their ear. See, that's another thing, too, is there may be another guy who who's like a middle run guy who's in the ear of somebody wanting to do something, and it's totally against what I'm trying to do. And it and I I don't want to say they're wrong and I'm right, because you know, I can be wrong. I probably was wrong a lot. But I was looking at the show as an overall, and they were looking at themselves in their spot. So they may say, let's uh let's beat down this guy, three guys, you know, let's let's have it like a Memphis ending, and let's let's have the three heels beat down this guy right before intermission. Well, that's incredible if we're having a rematch. But remember, we're not necessarily coming back to this town, and nobody knew that we weren't necessarily coming back to this town. So I would be like, well, if you're gonna do that, what are you gonna do in the main event? You can't have the same two things on the show. Well, then you have green promoters like Troy and Hawkins who would allow it because they didn't see that it's repeating the same thing on the show. So, you know, it it was we did see it, but it's not all the time talked about it with each other, if that makes sense. Because everybody it was the Wild West, so everybody had their own agenda trying to do their own thing. Yes, we all worked together, yes, we were all buddies, but ultimately everybody was trying to get the main event spot. And that was the spot that I had on a lot of these shows. And my whole thing was is if I'm the main event and I'm responsible for drawing and getting everybody paid, we ought to have this make some sense. Uh and and that was what really stressed me out was I felt as the main, because it's the way I was taught, as the main event, I'm responsible for the opening match getting paid. I'm responsible for the draw of that night. So it all has to trickle down for me, and that was a lot of stress to have to put up with all this stuff, and then hear, say, maybe Joe Joe Blow, whoever, um complaining he didn't get enough money. Well, you know, I took that kind of personally that you know, well, I'm doing the best I can, guys. There's 400 people out there, I can't help it that the promoter's not paying people. You know, I mean, where's all the money going? You know, and that's when, oh, there's no money, we papered the town. Okay.

SPEAKER_01

Right. You know, so I so I so I guess at this point most of your interactions with with the other boys are with the guys that are in that same rung as you or the run lower. There's not a lot of guys that you're having a a lot of time with that are that are you know, the the guys that had more experience than you that really came from the territories that are still working these independents going, good gosh, what happened? Like nothing like that, you know, as much, just more with the Bows and the Franks and the Rogers.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, because all the guys, like the white boys and Tracy Smothers, I would see Tracy all the time. Um, and he he felt the same way I did. Now we would talk about that, me and Tracy. But they were all working for New York. That was the Freddie Joe Floyd, T.L. Hopper era, the D Lo Brown era, the, you know, when all those guys were first getting jobs up there. So I didn't get to see a lot of those guys. You know, Tom was a body donna. And so they were they were all my buddy buddies were up there, or like Tim Horner, who just stopped working pretty much. I mean, he didn't quit working, but he he he stopped taking a lot of bookings. You know, he he did fairs and stuff, but he wasn't out there trying to uh openly hit shows every weekend.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah. So all right, so

The Worst Fan Weapon To Take

SPEAKER_01

that was great. That that all just kind of flowed. Now I have to backtrack and ask a really silly question that might have a short answer, but here we are. This is how this is how the show works. We're a little, we're a little crazy and it gets all over the place. So um, I want to know. So you you get the ECW tape, you decide to do the fans, you bring it, we'll use it. What thing that a fan brought that you got hit with hurt the worst?

SPEAKER_00

A VCR.

SPEAKER_01

That's so funny because in my head was the I don't remember if this was the ECW one or I've seen a different one, but it was the um original Nintendo system and they got hit with that, and I was like, that didn't tickle.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Like, is it now is that gonna like give you CTE? Probably not, but it doesn't it doesn't feel great to get hit with something like that. So I'm not surprised to hear uh VCR man.

SPEAKER_00

VCRs are basically solid state inside, and by that mean uh it's one piece. I mean it's a bunch of little pieces, but they're screwed in very well. So I got hit with it like it was a chair. And and back then I didn't put the hand up or nothing because I wanted it to look real. So I just take it. And there was no give in a VCR. There was nothing to get, and and you would think it would shatter. No, those little screws kept everything in there, and it just hurt like hell. And and I'm sure that it did get me CTE from that.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, it probably rang your bell.

SPEAKER_00

It sure did, it sure did. But uh, yeah, the VCR man, deadly.

SPEAKER_01

That is such a wild thing. I mean, I'm sure there's promotions doing stuff like that, but they you definitely shouldn't. And these are like the most outlaw promotions because I I mean I wouldn't trust somebody to not put like to not like alter that VCR.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I mean I mean, I I my brain can think of any number of ridiculous, crazy Florida man stuff that somebody could do and and that would really not only like do permanent damage to somebody, but legally, like liability-wise, holy cow, that's crazy.

Never Work For Free In Wrestling

SPEAKER_01

So speaking of the outlaw as of the outlaws, you you had a great rant about not working for free. And you gave the advice to the youngsters getting started not to do it. And I could I mean I'm so on the same page with you, but I want to play devil's advocate a little bit. Okay, and I have an answer that I think I'm gonna get, or I'm I could get here, but I I just kind of want to see what you say.

SPEAKER_02

Okay.

SPEAKER_01

So if you told a youngster, hey, whatever you do, don't work for free. Get paid something, and explain the the you know what paying your dues actually means, like you did so well on this episode. And and that kid's response to you would be something along the lines of, well, those are the only shows I can get booked on, what would your response be at that point?

SPEAKER_00

Get more training. Because if you are good, the promoters are gonna book you anyway because they're desperate. So if you're basically what the promoter is saying is you're not good enough for me to pay you money. I'll put you on there and give you some experience, but that's what you need is experience. Then you need to get more training so that you get better. And some yes, in-ring training is very the most important. Ring time is the most important in front of people. But you also don't just jump in a car and take your driver's license a test. You you practice, you practice your uh parallel parking. So if they're not if they're absolutely not willing to pay you, nobody will pay you anything. And by anything, I mean a dollar will do. Five dollars will do. Just so that they show you that you're worth something and that it's not for free. Because if you if you work for free, why would they ever pay you? Why would they ever bother to give you money if you're already doing it for free? Even if it's a dollar, you could go up to two or three or whatever. But getting more training and getting better, then that's the key to getting in there and them paying you, because otherwise they they're just cheap. And if if if the problem is not that you're not good enough to be paid, then what other excuse go get paid, right? Exactly, exactly. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01

Yes, I mean, yeah, I mean if if if the issue isn't you and you're the level you're at, then then then go get paid, kids.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

I I just yeah, I I I just I was so shocked when we ran WFS at how happy most of the guys were with what we were paying them. And I always felt that, you know. There were exceptions, don't get me wrong. But for the most part, we I didn't feel like we were paying guys what they were worth.

SPEAKER_00

Right.

SPEAKER_01

Just because that's just what we that's the hand we were dealt. But I won't name him, you know, because I don't want to embarrass him, but but someone that we have a very high opinion of who worked for us in WFS, we we did a weekend loop and I handed him an envelope, and it was two or three days back, and he opened it up and he looked at it, and he said, That's the most I've ever been paid to do wrestling. Thank you so much. And I was just blown away because I was like, these guys are worth so much more. We we're just doing the best we can, and and and we paid them, we paid everybody, we paid everybody, yeah. Because because of this exact conversation and philosophy that we're we're having and talking about right now, is it is a it is a job. You should you you you are doing you are doing a job, and so even if it's not much, get paid something, you know, and like you said, it's an easier conversation to go, hey, I know you've been paying me five dollars, but I could really use ten dollars. That's a lot easier than hey, I know you've never paid me, but now I want to get paid.

SPEAKER_00

Well, and when I had Apex, we had the TV studio and it was very small. It would because it was a drugstore. It wasn't meant to be a TV studio, and I gutted it and built what we could. It would hold 60 people. Uh $365 was a sellout because that's all we could put in there. And I paid everybody from the gate $360. We usually we did like 28 sellouts in a row. But I mean they weren't great. I mean, it sounds we did 28 sellouts, yeah, at $300 fucking dollars. You know what I mean? You know, it wasn't that hard to do a sellout, but I gave them each five dollars. But they knew I wasn't taking a dime. I never paid myself an Apex, but they knew every penny went to the boys. So what I started doing was is I whoever had the best match, I put a quarter in their in their envelope. So they knew they they had the best match. Now it wasn't the greatest thing, you know, you couldn't buy nothing with a quarter, but it showed that I appreciate you and I know you're having the best match. And I always tried to do that later on with the guys that knew me.

SPEAKER_01

Well sorry, go ahead.

SPEAKER_00

No, no, just just showing the appreciation.

SPEAKER_01

Well, and I think there's there's two general mindsets in a situation like that, if you if you're if you're one of the boys. I think there's the oh well thanks a lot. I can't do anything with a quarter. And then there's the guys that go, oh, if I get the mess the best match four times, that's a that's a cheeseburger. And that's my reward for putting in the work and getting that extra quarter four times. Now I know these days you can't get a cheeseburger for a dollar, but back then there was such a thing as a value menu, and that's how the boys got fed. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah. I lived off that value menu every day.

SPEAKER_01

Oh yeah, man. Yeah, l lived off of it for a while.

SPEAKER_00

But um, but see, I never wanted the boys to work for free.

unknown

Right.

SPEAKER_00

Never, ever, ever. Because that's that's not the point. Now, now there's a lot of times I didn't have money. I mean, when I say Apex had zero budget, it had negative zero budget. I mean, we were living off of the sponsor money. It paid for the TV and it got us the advertisement, and then the whatever we made that night went to all the boys. But the boys knew. That's the difference. The boys knew, you know, and and you could see there were 60 people there, you know, and they were getting whatever they were getting. Nowadays you see, you know, let's say there's 400 people at a show, and you're working and half the crew's working for free. Well, where's that money going? Or you've got uh some big name that comes in. See, here's here's another thing that goes on today. The you gotta have the name to draw the people. Well, the name costs two grand. Well, we drew $2,500 and the rent's $500, so everybody else has to work for free. Well, wouldn't it be more beneficial to just draw the hundred people you would get without the name and pay the boys that are working hard and everybody gets paid, and you try to draw from there with creativity and angles versus paying one guy the amount to bring everybody in and everybody else gets screwed.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. And and you know, something else I just thought about too, that I think had a lot to do with the morale of the WFS locker room, even though we never really drew very well at all, was you didn't have to wait till the end of the night to get paid. No, you got paid as soon as you showed up at WFS. So so and I and I I I remember at first not being really down with that, and then I one one time you said the goal is for them to not have to worry about it.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

I don't want them worrying all night, am I gonna get paid if there's nobody here? Am I gonna get paid because the house is down? No, you as soon as you show up, here's your envelope. Now let's now let's have some fun, let's get to work.

SPEAKER_00

Well, that that story reminds me of of the night that uh I we did the thing with Jeff Storm, and I went to him and I said, uh, good news, bad news situation. And he was like, oh god. And I said, Well, bad news is there ain't nobody here. Good news is you're getting paid, your money's right here, I'm getting ready to hand it to you. Other bad news is is we gotta do the whole angle blood and all because I gotta film it. And there's literally nobody here. And he was like, okay. I said, but the money's good, you know. You know, sometimes it works out like that. You have to do it that way.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, that, you know, that not to get too far down this road because there's no reason to. We'll get to it when we get to it, but but to have drawn an absolute goose egg that night, that was a pretty good night.

SPEAKER_00

It was, it was a great angle, and and and that showed what we were trying to do too. We were making content for streaming. So, yes, the crowd was was set dressing. So it would have looked better had there been people there. But we ended up tightening the cameras up, shooting a reverse angle so you can't really see the crowd. We put the girlfriends and the wives there to make as much noise as possible, and we shot the angle, and the angle looked good. Now, when you watch the video, you can tell there's nobody there, but you're still getting the content of the show, and there's nothing wrong with the angle, which all that's on YouTube, by the way.

SPEAKER_01

Um Rob Rob Killjoy and Murphy Coskin had a nice little match that night, too.

SPEAKER_00

Absolutely, absolutely. Well, and that's the thing you were talking about the um getting paid beforehand. I know there's a promoter that I work for now that as soon as I get out of the car pays me. And I will do anything he wants me to do. Because he's showing me the respect of here's your money, I want you to know you have it, and I appreciate you enough to make it a priority to not make you wait around three hours to get paid.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Yeah. And that Yeah, that's a that's a great way to put a wrap on that whole conversation. Get paid when you work, kiddos. Please.

SPEAKER_00

Something. Even if it's a dollar, something, something that you can move forward. You cannot move forward from nothing.

SPEAKER_01

And if you and if you and if you can't get booked and paid, get more training. And if or or get out. Exactly. Get out. Because because you're you're gonna look back and you're gonna be beat up physically and you're gonna have nothing to show for it.

SPEAKER_00

Nothing.

SPEAKER_01

You just did it for fun. And it is fun and it should be fun, but you should also get paid.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, it it's a job. It's always been a job. And yes, it's a fun job, but you're still getting paid. Like here's the thing. I wouldn't go look after the puppies for free. I love my puppies. I l I enjoy doing that. I enjoy playing them. But it's my job. I'm there to make a paycheck. I'm not there to just play with the puppies. And I wouldn't dare do that. So if you if you like your your your other job, would you do that job for free? And nine times out of ten, people are gonna say, no, they wouldn't. Well then why why would you do it for this one?

SPEAKER_01

And the tenth time they're alive.

SPEAKER_00

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01

All right, I got a couple more things from this episode I want to get

Working The Iron Sheik On July Fourth

SPEAKER_01

to. Um so we talked uh we talked a lot about how miserable it was being on some of these really outlaw shows that you know the grind of this is my career, this is my job, I have to go work, I have to go get paid. Um was working the Iron Chic on the Fourth of July like a like just like the most much needed bright spot in the middle of all this?

SPEAKER_00

Yes, yes. Talk about a bucket list and just and a reward, you know. I mean, yes, uh, who else was gonna work him, but I mean, but the fact that they chose me was great, and it just what what a high spot in the middle of a rest hold. You know what I mean? The a rest hold of life, what a high spot.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I love this story about uh Shiki not taking the boots off. Like y'all had this whole grid planned out. You you thought you were the smartest guys in the world, and he was like, Nope, nope, not even giving you the opportunity, you idiots.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and and and and we did, you know, there was no eBay. We're not trying to sell them and make them, but we wanted the boots because they're cool because we're marks. That's why. I want it, you know, Troy was gonna keep one in his house, I was gonna keep one in my office, you know, it was gonna be a, you know, and we planned this thing out flawlessly. We just never considered that what if he doesn't take the boot off. You know, and we were like, if he catches us, we're gonna have to run. We're pretty sure we can outrun him because he's got bad knees. You know, we we had a whole contingency of if we got caught and how not to get killed when he like literally killed, you know, like if he caught us stealing from him, he would have murdered us. You know, it was it was just terrible. I mean, and I would never do a rib like that now. That just shows how green we were that we were gonna do that because that is stealing and that is wrong. But it's funny that we thought that we were gonna get away with it.

SPEAKER_01

So at no point did anyone go, well, what if he's what if he's packing?

SPEAKER_00

No, no, we never never even considered.

SPEAKER_01

He might he might he might be like, uh, I don't know where I'm going. This is some podunk town, this is some crazy drunk hillbilly fest for 4th of July. I'm I'm gonna I'm gonna make sure I'm good.

SPEAKER_00

No, we were gonna catch him in the shower or the shitter and just grab him. And it just didn't happen, you know, and I love the chic so much, and I got to work with him a couple more times, and you know, I got to where I could understand the way he talked, so I would have to translate to other people to what he was wanting or saying and stuff like that, and just the chic was so special, and I just I I love Sheiky.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, just a just a treasure of of of the business man, just one of those people that what what else what else could he have possibly done with his life? Right. You know what I mean? Like it's just one of those people that fits perfectly because he doesn't fit anywhere else. Yeah, you know, just one one of us.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, absolutely. And and one of the tag matches later on is on YouTube of me and uh um Steph James versus Punchy McGee and uh the chic from up there in uh Jim Hawkins' promotion. And it's it's it's not bad. It's not it's not I mean it is what it is, but uh it wasn't Massive Square Garden, but it's on there for nostalgia value. And uh I just always loved working with the Sheik, man. He was cool. You got medicine for Sheiky? No, Sheiky, we don't. You you you don't have a joint for Sheiki? No, Sheik, I'm sorry. Well, what are you what what kind of kids are you these days? You have you have no medicine for Sheiki.

SPEAKER_01

Gazaro positive. Positive is good. One of my favorite stories I've ever heard.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Oh gosh. And if you don't know that story, go listen to Bruce Pritchard. Yeah, yeah, he tells it better. Yeah, he's he's he tells a great story about uh the iron sheet and uh and a drug test result. So uh all right. So this is the last thing I've got uh in my notes.

Too Many Names And Finding The Player

SPEAKER_01

And I don't know. I mean, I guess we could potentially get deep in the weeds on this, but it might just be something quick. Um so now you're Lance Erickson.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

You know, we talked about adding the Panther, the Pink Panther gimmick. Now we've got Lance Erickson. And and it literally in my notes before I cleaned it up and added like stuff that would make sense when I look back, I put another new name? What gimmick? And I don't want you to take offense to this in any way. But is the is the issue just that you're not over enough yet? Or like what's going on? Like, why can't you just be a gimmick and and that be your gimmick? I I don't understand, you know, enlighten me why. I mean, because this is like the tenth gimmick at this point, and we're not 10 years into your career.

SPEAKER_00

I think that these promoters, because it was always like the Burt Prentices and stuff like that. Um, well, I mean, you count the mask. The the mask gimmicks were were born out of necessity. Yeah. You know, to do to so I could do jobs and protect my real identity. But the actual names was always these promoters like a Burt Prentice or something like that. And I think they thought they were just a little Vince McMahon coming up with new new ways to reinvent this guy.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

You know, um Bert loved to change my name. I have no idea why, but he did. He changed it all the time. And uh that was one of the things later on that w that was one of the complaints I had, but later on why I wanted to stick with Brian Logan and why I eventually legally changed my name to Brian Logan. One of the reasons was because that's who I was or who I am. And um I wanted to always be that, and that was what I put the effort into, and that's what I always thought my name would be, you know, aside from a WWF or a WCW, because that's that's different. That's marketing from a uh a corporate end. But yeah, man, all these these promoters wanted to give me new gimmicks and new, you know, they they all knew better. They all knew, and I'm not saying I'm I know better. I'm saying they all knew better than the next guy. They all knew better than the other promoter, you know? And that there and I guess maybe that's the nature of being a promoter, is you think you have the inside track on on everything? I don't know. What do you think about that? Why do you think promoters always want to come up with new gimmicks? Because we did that too.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, but we didn't do that with we didn't do that with our top guys. I mean I mean okay, with one exception that we we really at the end of the day and in retrospect should have never been a top guy. Um but like the guys that were that came in with a little bit of experience that we were depending on, we never changed anything about. I mean, we just let them the heat seekers got to be the heat seekers. Wayne Atkins got to be Wayne Atkins. You got to be Brian Logan. Um you know what I mean? Hell, even Murphy Costigan got to be Murphy Costigan.

SPEAKER_00

Right.

SPEAKER_01

You know what I mean? Like it just we didn't the guys we repackaged were the ones that that weren't established, that we felt like we were enhancing their career by by giving them something new that they could latch onto. You know what I mean? I think it was I feel like it was a little bit different. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe maybe it's all the same, and maybe we're just idiot promoters that think we know better than the next guy when in reality we you know we went out of business in a year. You know, I don't know. So let me ask you this though.

SPEAKER_00

Okay.

SPEAKER_01

And and we don't have to get deep in the weeds on on the details. We can save that for later if you feel like it's more appropriate to wait until it it comes up in the journal. But when do you when does the player gimmick come to be?

SPEAKER_00

Um the player gimmick comes right around here. I mean, well, no, I I already have the player gimmick because I because I have the t-shirts for um the West Virginia shows.

SPEAKER_01

That's right. Yeah, those were player Brian Logan t-shirts. All right, so so then let's talk about it. Let's talk about the player gimmick. Give me, give me, you know, where'd the idea come from? What the I mean, the I love a good, clean name like that, that that's not one that you're just rehashing from the 50s that anybody who knows anything about wrestling knows it's a rehash. But you know, I like a good original clean gimmick like that. So tell tell me all about it. Tell me about the player.

SPEAKER_00

Well, we were at the Samson Center, me, Bo James, and the Duke of New York, and we were there early, and we had gotten lunch, and we were sitting there eating our lunch and we were talking and booking the whole wrestling world on how we knew everything. And I said, Man, I need a nickname. You know, you're handsome Bo James, you're the Duke of New York, you know, I need something flashy to go with with what I'm going with. It's just not worth you know, I need to spice it up a little bit. And uh Bo just said, the player. And uh Duke of New York was like, oh, that's perfect for you with the you know, with you and the girls and everything. And he's like, Yeah, the player. You're now the player. And I said, Oh man, I love that. How soon can we do that? And Bo's like, We'll do it tonight. And uh I was the player from then on. That simple, Bo come up with it and out of nowhere while we're you know eating lunch.

SPEAKER_01

That's so cool. It's also really funny that it was Bo's idea. I almost phrased the question as whose idea was it? And then I was like, there was no way anybody but Brian came up with that.

SPEAKER_02

No.

SPEAKER_01

That actually makes sense now that I hear the story. And um shout out to Al Getz, the Duke of New York. Yeah. Oh, only been around him a little bit, but enjoyed it tremendously every time.

SPEAKER_00

One of my favorite people, man. He's just he he makes me smile. He's one of those few people that just those handful of people in my life that when I'm around him, it just makes me smile.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, absolutely. Good guy. Good guy to be around for sure. Um, so that's all I've got really in my notes. Um I mean, is there anything else you you you were real ramped up in this episode. I mean, you went on a couple of good rants. I mean, anything else you want to rant about today?

Freebird Buddy Rose And Being Poked

SPEAKER_00

Well, they just uh Buddy Rose, man.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, let's talk, let's talk more about free bird Buddy Rose.

SPEAKER_00

He uh he him and his buddies was gonna beat me up one night. And I was like, okay. They they were gonna, and there's three of them, and they were gonna they they they took this how stupid they were. They told me they were gonna do it. And when we get when we get to heat after the match, we're gonna shoot on you. Okay. So I took a razor blade about an inch and cut it and put tape on it, and uh put it in my tape. And I was like, every time they hit me, I'm just gonna slice their arm. Luckily, they didn't do it because I probably would have ended up making them bleed to death. But this guy was such an idiot, but that's how bad it was. At one point, he ran his mouth so bad in the locker room. I went and sat in the ring after the show and started screaming, just come on out here. I'm gonna whip your ass. This guy just was he was nuts. He really thought he was a free bird, and he would come up like he would come up to you and be like, Yeah, man, I uh talked to Michael yesterday. And you're like, Michael, who? Oh yeah, Mike, you know Michael, Michael, yeah, he just got off the phone with Terry. You know, we're talking about going back on tour together. I mean, he really legitimately thought that he was a was a free bird. And when we told him that Buddy Rose was a total different guy, and it was Buddy Roberts, it he he he had a meld down. It just he he couldn't handle it. Like, that's not right, though. It's Buddy Rose, man, it's Freebird Buddy Rose, and I'm the guy. But for some reason, Hawkins loved him. It was one of those things that amused him. And I I was like, You're gonna keep on, you're gonna get this guy hurt, is what you're gonna do. Because I'm gonna just catch him in a parking lot and beat the shit out of me. And and Hawkins was like, oh ha ha ha. I said, Jim, I'm serious. I'm dead serious. This guy's got to go. And they just kept booking me with him. You know? Wow. Yeah. Because that they would they would mess with me to see if I would go off. This started the time period where people would would actively fuck with me to see if I would cut promos on people because they thought it was amusing.

SPEAKER_01

And just poke poking the bear.

SPEAKER_00

Just poking the bear. And that, you know, and at first I had a lot of patience, but after a couple of years of this stuff, of course I would go off. Because it was just asinine stuff, which is where I got my reputation for being crazy, which I turned into a gimmick.

SPEAKER_01

That people to this day believe.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, well, you know, the saying in O'Kill, wrestling's not real, but Brian Logan is. And that you can you can literally go on Main Street in O'Kill right now and ask somebody that that was around then. I mean, you can't get these Mount Hope people because they don't know who I am. But if you get one of the people that that watched wrestling, they'll say, Brian Log, everything Brian Logan does is real. That's real every time, every time he fights, it's real. And that's cool. That's really cool.

SPEAKER_01

That's great. Well, listen, I I'm not a big Mount Rushmore guy, but I have thought about it. And Terry Funk, I think, always makes it into my four because my four can change day to day. You know what I mean? But Terry Funk pretty much is he's often the first name I I get. Um if if if prompted with the wrestling Mount Rushmore. And and you know, that was always his thing. I can't make you believe wrestling's real, but I can sure make you believe I. Right. You know, and we've talked about Terry and his impact on you and that that whole philosophy, but but yeah, that's I think that's that's a really that's gotta feel good as as a wrestler, as a as uh, as an entertainer, you know, to to get that sort of reputation.

SPEAKER_00

Well, and and I think Johnny Valentine was the original person that quoted it. It's been a lot of people used it. Terry Funk used it a lot. Absolutely. I agree with you with Terry Funk. I love Terry Funk. Um, it's a blessing and a curse at the same time. I mean, I have people now that I'll talk to and they're like, you know, you're kind of a nice guy. And I'm like, yeah, I think I am. And they're like, well, we've we've heard all these horror stories. I said, uh and I always go, and they're all absolutely true. And they're like, well, we're starting to think they're not. Nope, nope, nope. Every damn one of them's true. I did everything I'm accused of. Don't kill my gimm, don't kill my gimmick, kid. That's all I got left. Don't go around saying I'm a nice guy because I'll never get booked again.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, goodness. Yeah, I just uh we've talked a little bit about WFS, and I just remember the early days when there were a lot more people around than just you and me.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And um, you know, it was it was, oh, has he yelled at you yet? No, he really hasn't. Oh, well, it's coming. It's not, it's not if, it's when. And I actually just was talking to Jen about this the other day. You and I have never still in eight years, I don't think we've ever really raised our voices to each other.

SPEAKER_00

No need to, because there's respect and common mostly it's common sense. I mean, you know, you did yell at me in the parking lot that one time when I was having that conversation with that lady, but I don't think that was your fault.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, yeah, yeah. That was that was that was the hotel in uh um Beckley or Mount Hope. Mount Hope, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah. She was uh wanted me to move my car, and I was not moving my car because it wasn't my car.

SPEAKER_02

I couldn't move it because it wasn't my car.

SPEAKER_00

And she was like, You're moving it now, and I'm like, No, no, I'm not.

SPEAKER_01

Okay, yeah, that's uh that that that's all I got, man. That's all I got. But this this is such an interesting time in your career, and um I I know we're getting close to really getting to some of the juicy stuff, um, but it's just such a great illustration of the the reality of this business and this lifestyle that I don't think a lot of people you know, people that are really into wrestling, really know wrestling, they're aware of this. But I think the outside world or the casual viewer of wrestling has no idea that is it glitz and glam, sure. But is it all that? It absolutely not.

SPEAKER_00

No, no. I mean, and here's the thing, the money itself, that's why I wanted to talk about how the money and how much I made. It was just enough to get by and live on.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And I did it for 30 years. Um, and a lot of people would question, well, how'd you do it, why'd you do it, and all that. But I mean, you know, people well, okay, here's an example. I I I had a job one time at Build-A-Bear a few years ago, and uh they hired this new girl, and they always thought it was cool that I was a wrestler. The girls that work there, well, they told the new girl that I was that I used to be a wrestler, and she she literally, and this is how rude people are. She said, Well, I thought all you people were millionaires. How come you're working at Build-A-Bear? And I said, I used to be. I used to be a millionaire, I'm just not anymore. That's why I'm here. So everybody thinks all the wrestlers are millionaires. Well, that's true. No, it wasn't. It wasn't. It wasn't a lie. It's not a lie. I just didn't go into details with her.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, goodness.

SPEAKER_00

But I liked how she said you people. You people. I've always wanted to be a you people. So all right. All right, that's probably a good place to we'll stop for

Money Myths And Sponsor Plugs

SPEAKER_00

this week. Thank you for joining us this week. This episode. Has been brought to you by Dubby Energy Drinks. Be sure to check out everything they got going on over there at uh duby.gg. Use promo code YOURCHAM at checkout. Uh they have all kinds of cool flavors. They have it's uh zero sugar, you know, no secret formulas, no hidden flavors, gluten-free. It's a really good made in the USA energy drink, about 150 milligrams of caffeine. You can mix it anywhere. It's for sharper mental focus and clean, smooth energy. Check out W.g. promo code Your Champion. Also, check out all of our social medias and follow us. If you want to go to IamYourChion.com, right there on the homepage are links, buttons to every one of our socials uh Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, the X, everything. Just go there and check us out. And if you get a chance, go to IamYourChampion.com, check out our shop. We got a lot of cool things there. And as usual, our YouTube is I Am Your Champion exclamation point on YouTube.com. This has been brought to you by Three Crows Entertainment, and as always, I am your champion. I am your champion. Oh man, that's classic. I love it. I'm gonna climb that ladder of success all the way to the top.