Under The Lights with Ash and Roy
Under the Lights Podcast with Ash & Roy brings you straight into the stories of the Western world’s toughest and most talented — legendary horsemen, elite rodeo athletes, and powerhouse musicians.
No fluff. No filters. Just real conversations about the grit, setbacks, and breakthroughs that built these icons. Ash & Roy take you behind the scenes and under the lights to hear what it really took to get there.
If you live the Western lifestyle — or just respect the grind — this one’s for you.
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Under The Lights with Ash and Roy
Dr. Stephen P. Dey III - Season 1 Episode 4
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Dr. Stephen P. Dey III is a respected equine veterinarian and one of the most accomplished Standardbred breeders in North America. Carrying on a family legacy rooted deeply in the horse industry, Dr. Dey operates the historic Heritage Hill Farm in New Jersey, a breeding program known for producing some of harness racing’s top performers.
Following in the footsteps of his father Dr. S.P. Dey II, Steve’s passion for horses, with his background in veterinary medicine and built a program to consistently compete at the highest levels of the sport. Despite operating a relatively niche breeding operation, horses raised at Heritage Hill Farm have earned millions on the track and have captured some of the sports most prestigious titles.
Among the standout champions bred by Dr. Dey are world champion pacer ByTheMissal, Dan Patch award winning pacer Niki Hill, and record setting pacing filly SheBeStingin. His eye for breeding, dedication to horsemanship, and commitment to the Standardbred industry has made him one of the most respected figures in harness racing today
From the breeding shed to the racetrack, Dr. Dey’s work continues to shape the future of the sport while honoring a tradition of excellence that spans generations.
Under the lights, if you would have the Western light stuff, or disrespect the guy, this one for you. It's that crack a gold one and enjoy the show.
SPEAKER_05Welcome to Under the Lights with Ashton Roy. I am so excited today. We have a really, really special guest with us, Dr. Stephen P. Dye III. Thanks for joining us, Doc.
SPEAKER_01Oh, anytime. It's a pleasure.
SPEAKER_05What we love about doing this podcast and bringing the Western lifestyle to life is just kind of the opportunity to meet and share stories with people that we don't normally get a chance to sit down with, whether they're extremely busy, like Dr. Die, or, you know, on the road doing all sorts of you know crazy stuff that it's hard to catch up and have the time. Roy, before we get into anything more, I'm gonna do a quick bio for all of our listeners of Dr. Die and the Heritage Hell brand, just so our listeners have a really nice in-depth look at you know who we're talking to. So our guest, Stephen P. Dye III, is a respected equine veterinarian and one of the most accomplished standardbred breeders in North America. Carrying on a family legacy rooted deeply in the horse industry, Dr. Dye operates the historic Heritage Hill Farm in New Jersey, a breeding program known for producing some of Harness Racing's top performers. Following the footsteps of his father, Dr. S. P. Dye II, Steve's passion for horses with his background in veterinary medicine has built a program that consistently competes at the highest level. Despite operating a relatively niche breeding operation, horses raised at Heritage Hill have earned millions on racetrack and they've captured the sport's most prestigious titles. Among those standout champions, the Heritage Hill has bred world champion pacer by the missile, Dan Patch award-winning pacer Nikki Hill, record-setting pacing Philly, She B. Stingen, the newest highlight to the Heritage Hill brand, is the 2025 Ushua Horse of the Year Boat Jengles, who was sired by a Heritage Hill bred and now super sire Cattlewash. Um, Doc's eye for breeding and dedication to horsemanship and commitment to the breed is just unbelievable to me. I am a true, true fan of the generations and generations of horsemanship that he brings to the table. So thank you, Doc, and welcome to our podcast.
SPEAKER_01Oh, thank you. Uh one thing, Ash, uh Cattlewash, we raised that horse. Oh, he was actually bred by Bill Donovan. You know what I mean? Bill Donovan bred that horse. It wasn't Heritage Hill Farm.
SPEAKER_05And you raised him there at the farm for the Donovan family.
SPEAKER_01He was out of the mare that I own, which Bill owned the mare previous to me. And I bought the mare in full carrying Bojangles. And you know, so the resulting full was Bill's. And when Cattlewash was born, we raised him. He was actually born at Hanover Shoe Farms and then came to our place. Uh, we raised the Colt, and then at the end of his uh yearling year, he wound up getting shipped down to Ronnie Burke in Florida. And and so Bill raced that horse and still owns the horse, you know, a large uh a majority of them, I know. So it was actually was not us, it was uh Bill that present horse.
SPEAKER_05I'm glad you said that because I I don't know, I was convinced that you guys had done that, but what what a what a year that Cole had.
SPEAKER_01Yes, yeah, he's fantastic. And and Bill, you know, Bill Donovan's uh done a pretty good job of locating great mayors in his career as well. There's you know, every time you turn around, you see another mare that Bill owned at one time producing great horses, so he's done fantastic.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. We well, the accolades are deep. You know, we can talk all day about the the details of, you know, there's so many horses and so many mares and so many great stories in there, but let's kind of jump right into your youth of growing up on a farm. I know I'm a farm girl, our man Roy is a farm boy, so just tell us a little bit about that.
SPEAKER_01Well, you know, so my brother also is an equine vet, Greg and and the two of us worked together. And you know, we we grew up basically, we we were on a horse farm. So when I was two years old, we moved to New Jersey. And we lived at a place then called Baker Hill, which is my grandfather's place, Charles I. Smith, who the Charles I. Smith trot was named after.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And and uh we were raised there until we moved over to Harriet Show Farm in 1965. And uh the Sire Stakes was really just getting started. In fact, we registered the very first yearling that was ever registered to the New Jersey Sire Stakes was a Harrods Hill Farm bread. So that's how long we've been breeding horses here in New Jersey. And and you know, so from the very time that we were kids, we were learning how to fold mares, doing all that kind of stuff. I mean, I you know, our our father uh, you know, was a racetrack practitioner, so he was oftentimes out at the racetrack, you know, uh getting back at all hours. So uh as uh young fellows, we were responsible for watching those mares and folding those mares when he wasn't around. So it it started early. And uh obviously because you know he spent a lot of time at the track, we spent a lot of time at the track when we were young. I mean, we were he used to take us to Atlantic City Racetrack, Brandywine Racetrack back when you know, when we were, you know, I was probably you know, in before I was a teenager, we were down there at those tracks. So um it it gave us an opportunity, and and and he was really different. My father was a livestock guy. When he went to vet school, his his interest was livestock, not equine. So it was different for Greg and I. We went to vet school with the idea that we were going to be equine practitioners, what we wound up doing.
SPEAKER_05And that and that was kind of how did you always have a feeling that veterinary medicine was was your calling? Did you just know?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I I think we did. I mean, we're exposed obviously to uh certainly a tremendous amount of ups and downs because one thing about the breeding game, you know, it it's tough. And uh, you know, you get exposed to those distos and things that make you think about whether or not you really belong in the industry. Um, so and and and really uh, and I know in the past, Ashley, we've talked about this. I mean, my my parents never once pushed us towards veterinary medicine, Greg or or myself. And after we got into vet school, I my mother set us down at the table and basically said to both of us, you know, what what are you two, crazy? You you want to do what your father does? Look at this guy, all he does is work. So and at the time, you know, we really didn't get it. Now, when you get older, you you realize that you know the amount of time that you put in. But you know, I love what I do. I mean, I uh you know, I get I get fortunately for me, I've got great clients, and uh I get to be around a lot of great horses. Those great clients have great owners, and um my part of the job's easy. I mean, I you know, when you when you're when you're around really good horses, it makes you look good.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, for sure. So but when you and your brother, uh, you know, coming from your dad, did was there ever any any doubt? Did you question, like, hey, uh, you know, I just want to be on the breeding farm, I want to do this instead of being a vet. I mean, was there ever any of that, or did you just you just knew right away?
SPEAKER_01Well, I think both of us were, we were so exposed, Roy, to the racetrack part of it. Because, you know, even though right in the beginning we obviously we bred some mares, but uh my father was more of a racetrack vet um than he was a repro vet. And and we've kind of done the breeding part of it um you know as as kind of a side interest, and and and maybe throughout the years, maybe we've gotten a little bit better at it, but um it was you know more of a hobby to us than the actual racetrack part. And and that I you know, obviously I can't really speak for my brother, but I'm more of a racetrack vet than I am a repro guy. And and you know, if you if you made me choose, I would choose racetrack medicine. So um, and and that's kind of always been the way for me. I mean, I actually got the opportunity to train some horses when I was younger, and and I think my father actually kind of kept us away from that purposely because he was afraid, uh as you know, you know how it is, Roy, when when when you get around horses, when horses get in your blood, it's it's hard to walk away from that. And and you know, I I started training some horses, racing horses at the metal lands, and when they start winning, you you you know, all of a sudden you're thinking to yourself, hey, um, maybe this is what I should be doing. So he he really kept us away from getting an opportunity to um to get exposed to the race part of it. Because both of us did. Greg and I both had an opportunity to, you know, kind of train some horses, and and we still will. I mean, I I haven't done it as much in years, but uh I've sat I've sat behind. I've gotten fortunate enough with the trainers that I've had. I mean, when I when Chuck Sylvester was up here with a large stable, I I got to train a lot of Chuck's horses. I mean, I Chuck had me sit behind uh Pine Chip, Winky's Gold, Armbrough Keepsake, a lot of his really good horses. So it was uh, you know, and and and that's exciting, you know. It it uh was one of my favorites, yeah, throughout the years. I mean, an old Arm gone, right? Right, exactly. No, it was it was uh I I loved it. I loved it. I mean, obviously, uh, I don't know if I would have been any good at it, but um, you know, you it it's it's thrilling. And uh, you know, for my father actually did a lot of driving amateur races and you know in the Cyr State program here in New Jersey. He was running around almost all the time at the fairs driving horses that we had bred.
SPEAKER_00So yeah, and you you you mentioned brandy wine and and liberty bell. Uh obviously I was a little young, but my grandfather raced it back there in the 60s, you know. Uh right, and then we grew up at the the PA fairs, so uh yeah, good times back then.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, yeah. One of um in in past conversation, uh Dr. Dye and I had spoken about some of the races that were just like very, very pivotal in in that you watched growing up, where you absolutely are enamored with the ability of the standard red breed and and and the growth of and the speed and and all of that. I'm gonna ask our producer Britt if she can bring us in on the 1972 albatross race. It was a free-for-all pace at freehold. Now, bear with us, everybody, because this is an older video. Um, the fact that we even were able to find the video was kind of good. It does not have any um sound. So, Doc, would you mind maybe getting in there if we get this pulled up, maybe talking to us a little bit about this race? That's the secretariat one. We'll have to get back into the albatross.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so the the the interesting thing about this race, you know, uh my brother and I were both down there at Freehold with my father that day, and um, it was kind of an interesting race because we we stood a horse at our place called Ala White, which is the older brother to Nansamon. And Nansamon was in this race, and um there was it's hard to beat to see, I know. Yeah, it's hard to see, but he had beaten Albatross a couple times, and and you know, so there was that little stigma, uh, and and it was an impressive race. As you see, Albatross took control of this race right from the beginning, and and it was as dominant a display of horsepower as you get to see, you know, it was years ago, but it was kind of an awe-inspiring race for us. So we're we were on the back stretch there watching this, and you know, albatross just took control of this field, and I I think he won by 17, 20 lengths. I mean, it was it was impressive. It kind of reminds you a little bit of that secretariat race that you'd put up there before. I mean, we uh, you know, when when uh when you see this kind of display when when you're you know a young fella, it uh it really impressed me.
SPEAKER_05And you guys were on the track, right? Were you there at the race?
SPEAKER_01Yes, we were there. Yeah, yep. Yeah, we were both there. We're freehold at that time had a backstretch and everything, which was up on the hill above the track, and you could stand there and and look right down at the track and watch the race. And uh, so a lot of times when you know, when we were young, my father would be working on the backstretch, and when the race would get ready to go, Greg and I would go over there and sit there and watch the race, and then go back and help out, you know, in between each of the races on Saturday, because you know, you get an opportunity to to watch the good horses race.
SPEAKER_05Here he is coming to the wire.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, just you know, an impressive display. Did he set a world record that day? No, that was it, it was a track record for free hold, 57 and change. I mean, it was not a great day. It was not uh, you know, weather-wise, it was not ideal conditions, right? Yeah, but the you know, the performance that he put on with the quality of horses that were in there, that was impressive.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I've seen Stanley working on that coming down the stretch. I didn't go for some kind of record. Yes.
SPEAKER_05Building a broodmare band, you have shown that through the years, I mean, it takes a lot to to build that broodmare band and grow that program that you had. Can you tell us a little bit about the foundational mayors in the program that you have?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so um my father started, you know, buying mares and accruing a group, and and so during the course of the years, we had we had some mayors that were pretty successful, but it it was hard for us to generate mayors that were commercially successful. So, you know, even though we produced we like we we we produced HA Shadow, who back in 86 she set a uh world record when she wound up winning a leg of the cane. And that was a filly that we had bred out of uh HH Silhouette, which was a mare that we had also bred. Um, so you know it it it takes time, and and the fortunate thing for Greg and I was we've had so much time and so much experience in this business, you know, we kind of knew what we liked. And it then you have to be able to get your hands on those ones you like. And fortunately for me, I've been around so many the group of trainers that I have are fantastic. You know, when you every day, you know, you're you're walking into Brett Pelling, Chris Ryder, Noel Daly, um you know, the Richard Norman, those kind of barns, you get an opportunity to see a lot of great horses. And actually, the one mare that I bought, Road Bet, which was the one that's the dam of cattlewash, I was working on her for Chris Ryder for Bill Donovan. And um I loved the mayor when she was down here in New Jersey, and then Saratoga had just gotten the slots and everything. So Bill said, you know what, uh, there's an open mare race. I'm gonna take her up there and race her in Saratoga. So the mayor kind of disappeared, and Bill had her up there, and then Bill started breeding a little bit more himself. Always kind of, I think, bred a little bit, but Bill kind of he got pretty involved then, and then he got a little disenchanted with it, and he wound up having a dispersal. So I ran into Bill at Harrisburg, and I said to Bill, I said, geez, I said, Bill, did something happen to Roadbed. And he said, No, why? I said, Well, I I see you're having a dispersal, and I don't see Roadbed in in the sale. So he said to me, Well, I've actually got her in fold to somebody somewhere, and that that of course was cattlewash that you're talking about, Ashley. And and uh he said to me, Um, I said, geez, I said, I I really love that mayor, I'd love to have her. So Bill said, You know what? I'll tell you what we'll do. Uh, you take the mayor home, we'll work out a price for raising the the foal and everything, and then we'll work out a price, and you can have the mayor that way, you can brood her to who you want. So that's kind of how that happened. I got lucky, number one, that Bill Donovan would sell her to me. And you know, and it's always kind of been that way. Uh, the damn of by the missile, I saw her down at um Gordon State Racetrack. I was actually taking my wife down there for a license, and she was on the track that day, and I knew her mother, her majesty, because she was a mayor that uh Bob McIntosh had that my brother had worked on. So I I looked at her and uh I said, geez, that's a nice mayor. So I called my call up. I said, Mike, are you a breeder? Uh and he said, No, not really. I said, Well, Mike, I like that dismissal mayor. So if if it comes some stage of your career where you're gonna retire, yeah, if you could give me a call, I'd love it. And sure enough, I was lucky enough that Mike remembered that conversation when she was a five-year-old. He called me up and said, Hey, you know what? That mayor, uh, I think I'm done with her. Do you want her? And that was how I got that mayor. And and there's been a few of them the same, bet on luck. It was kind of the same deal. It's a mayor I knew. Um, and and and uh okay, heavenly, that was another mayor that I bought, who's the damn dandy ideal that you know, we watched race last year was uh a successful three-year-old. Yeah, so you know, it's it that's how I've really to be honest with you, I've just gotten lucky buying a couple that that um wound up being mayors that people liked. And and uh it's it's you know, obviously Roadb's been fantastic. You know, you there's no way that if you'd have pinned me down, you know, six years or seven years ago and asked me if I thought she'd be that kind of a mayor, I I wouldn't have a clue.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and uh you bring up this missile, uh, the dam of by the missile. Do you know? I I my brother had that horse as a year when I broke that that that oh did you want to do that?
SPEAKER_01That that mayor, that mayor roy is the best looking mare we have, Greg and I. Like you you could she could be standing a half a mile away from you, and you look at it and go, Oh my god, that's that she is she is unbelievable. She says good looking there.
SPEAKER_00That produced, you know, so but uh yeah, it's funny how that we we all come full circle here. Like you got the dismissal now. I broke dismissal.
SPEAKER_01Timmy broke dismissal somewhere, so I'm sure and and you know, Mike, so Mike, I you know, I see Mike Hall just because I wind up working on some horses for Mike or whatever, and yeah, Mike will always say to me, geez, I would have been a lot smarter if I would have just kept that dismissal. I said, Well, you know, it it it that's the way it is in our game, right? You you know, you you you wind up you know making their choice and it it works sometimes, most of the time it doesn't.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, so um podcasts are always deceiving because we talk about all the great things, you know. And all the good answers, the good choices we've made. We're just gonna leave out all those other ones that we let go or wish we wouldn't have. I mean, I think I think we can all say we've got a lot more stories of those than we do of the great ones, you know.
SPEAKER_00Right, right. So I I have a question, and I don't know if it's logistically possible. And I didn't give this a lot of thought, but it's crossed my mind a time or two. Some of these stallions that we see now, they're the stud fees are like really high, right? So you're you're talking that the the smaller guys can't afford to breed their merit to this guy. Is it possible say you know, Super Bowl died in I don't know what it was, 2000 or 90 and the nine? Is it possible to keep straws of semen that long? And then I I know the USTA rules, I'm talking besides all that. Is it possible to keep straws of semen that long? And if say I had a horse uh Marinella said, Hey, I want to breed the Super Bowl, get that straw and breed her.
SPEAKER_01Oh yeah, you know, that's that's like there, there's I don't know if they're still breeding rock and roll Hanover. Uh, you know, well, obviously rock and roll Hanovers passed away, but there were straws of rock and roll Hanover down there. I believe they're still selling rock and roll handovers down under, you know, to your point, Roy. I mean, it it's kind of like uh it's kind of like in in the in the uh beef cattle industry, you know, once they find a uh a bowl that they really like and they wind up getting enough semen out of that bowl and getting enough straws, they really don't even need him because you know they can just keep using the straws. And especially if you've got a horse that's really fertile. I mean, I I think uh you know, we we had that situation with better's delight where better's delight had a problem, and we're breeding or or you know, we had to breed with frozen semen. I bred three mares to f with the two better still with frozen semen, all three of them, right and full.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so I don't I would like to see it, yeah. Just to to change the breeding up, bring a little more bone back into the sport.
SPEAKER_05Um I don't know, just my thoughts, but I believe, and and Dr. Dye, you'll have to double check me on this. I believe currently, as we stand, that after a horse is passing, we can utilize semen for the year of and the year after. And uh beyond that, registering those becomes an issue. And that is to maintain the longevity of growth and change and not going back. Now, we do have within U.S. trotting, a lot of people don't realize this with thoroughbreds, they are required to life cover. We don't have that in our sport. We have artificial insemination availability to us. We do have a stallion cap of 140 that that stallion in the United States can serve. Long, long story short, United States Charting Association um along with UC Davis had worked on uh a project to see what that number would be, and that's where that came from. There's probably great things about that, and in and not so great things. I don't, I you know, I don't know more a whole thing about it.
SPEAKER_00I think it's because I grew up in the industry, and I think more for novelty for me, like oh the Super Bowl in 2020, right? Or or an albatross or something.
SPEAKER_05So I don't know, it was just something fun to could you imagine having some some beach straws right now? People would be spending as much as they wanted on it. Yeah, I do have one race that I just absolutely loved. It it the your Philly terrific, who was um, I know, I know I hate to bring it up because the Breeders Crown for breeders and for horsemen is such an exquisite, exquisite race to win. It's so highly sought after. And uh this bear raced her eyeballs out and was a gallant second. I hate to bring it up, but I would love to show that if producer Brick can share with us. Um, I mean, I'm not trying to like put any salt in any wounds, but if we could get a hold of that replay, uh, I would love to go back to it. Natar Riffick at the time was a three-year-old pacing Philly, correct, Doc?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, she was. She was. Oh, and and and to be honest with you, Ashley, I mean, for us, you know, for my brother and I as breeders, and and you know, my wife owned this Philly, you know, it was we were just happy to be there. And and and of course, she she didn't have a lot of luck. She drew the 10-hole and the alim and the final. Um, and and you know, we're just sitting up there hoping that we'd get a little piece. And uh, you know, coming through the stretch there, yeah, you know, Jason kind of put her into a good spot and things opened up for her, and here she comes flying down the rail. And uh, you know, if we had a little bit more racetrack, I do believe that she'd have got there. And it was, you know, for us it was it was thrilling. I mean, you know, having a haired show farm bread in the breeder's crown to begin with is uh is is really an honor for your program.
SPEAKER_05Uh there she is from the tenth, right, Doc?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, that's her.
SPEAKER_05She's on the outside.
SPEAKER_01Yep, and then you know, just you know, leaves and winds up, you know, getting to the front. And of course, you know, my girl EJ's the big favorite in there.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_01And actually, you know, Todd went ahead and moved to get around us because he wanted to be where we were. And and I I think I really believe that if Todd would have stayed and and my girl EJ would have wound up coming, we wound up sitting my girl EJ's back. I I don't know that we wouldn't have won that race.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01But that's that's horse racing.
SPEAKER_05That's that's horse racing. That is the truth. The the mayor's effort off the wings was really just so huge. I mean, I don't know if a when you're looking at a harness race and you're coming behind the car, coming to the beginning of the race, on a mile track, you are so many lengths off of that rail that you have to make up so much to to get back up to the front. And she did it really against the I mean, these are the classiest three-year-old Payson Phillies of the year. Um, she did it so so easy. And and I think Jason drove her just as good as a driver could could drive.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and you and you know, actually, she just one thing about this Philly, she just continued to get better and better and better all year. And and this was really, I was hoping, you know, that that she would get maybe uh lucky enough to get an invite into the TVG, even after because I I would have I'd have raced her against those things. I you know, I know she wouldn't have beat Twin B Joe Fresh, but yeah, uh just the opportunity to get to those races and uh you know and and uh you know she's she she's actually as we speak down in the barn getting ready to fold. So we've we've uh yeah, we've got her in full the sweet loo right now and and uh hoping that uh she'll have something that's got four legs and stands up and somebody wants to buy.
SPEAKER_05So uh I think I think one of the the the reason that I love watching that race and I love sharing that race is um the grit and the tough toughness of a standardbred breed. A lot of the a lot of other you know breed guys, they don't, you know, they're they're so in intertwined with the quarter horse or paint people or paint people, third people are therbird people. You have the luxury as a veterinarian practicing and and you don't just do racehorses. I I've you've helped us with our brow racing quarter horses, I've watched you help a lot of other breeds breeds. Um, talk to us a little bit about just the tough and grit of the standardbird breed.
SPEAKER_01Well, you know, you're you're definitely 100% right, Ashley. I mean, Standardbirds overcome amazing things. I mean, the problems that we see, and and you know, one question I get asked a lot is uh who's the best horse you've ever worked on?
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And my answer still to this day is Mr. Muscle Man because he just had so many problems. And uh, you know, I can pull out the x-rays that I took of Mr. Muscle Man's knees when he was three. And most horses, you know, would be lucky enough to they'd be they'd be hard pressed to race with uh x-rays like that. And that horse made uh three and a half million dollars or whatever he made. Yeah, uh and you know, he was you know fractures in his knees that we'd had to clean up, suspensory problem behind, and he never made an excuse. Like one thing about that horse, and and you know uh great horses are just like a great person. You have to care about what you do, and and that's one thing about Mr. Muscle Man. When he showed up at the racetrack, he was there for a reason. And and you know, it it's you know, Stanbridge are very resilient, they heal well, um, they're obviously their bone structure is allows them uh to withstand the pressures of training because that's that's really the problem that we have is predicting injury. You know, when you when you've got horses, because all the time I'm looking at a horse that a sore horse, and you know, we have to try and manage that horse with maybe uh joint injections, a change in program, etc. etc. And somewhere in there, you what they expect is for you to have a crystal ball and to be able to predict exactly what's going to happen there. And you, you know, fortunately, I have a tremendous amount of experience, and I was able to get taught by my father who had tremendous experience. I worked for Dr. Bomber up at the Metal Lands, another practitioner who's retired now. But you know, those two guys one thing about it, if I didn't see something, if I hadn't seen something before when I was a young practitioner, between my father and Dr. Bomber, so what what we need to predict oftentimes is um where an injury is gonna go, how long an injury is gonna last, and and standardbreds, you know, just overcome a lot of things. I I have looked at thoroughbreds, and obviously the problem you have is that um they don't they can't withstand the constant pressure of training, and it it just seems like they need more time to recover than is available for them. And out of the blue, um, you know, bone injuries are tough because um those micro injuries that you see in a bone manifest into a larger injury that then manifests into you know a real problem. So standard birds don't seem to be that kind of uh that kind of an animal. And they can withstand the the rigors of training and racing time and time again, on obviously on tracks that uh that are hard and race multiple times, and and some of that to Roy's point is due to some of these foundation sires that we have. Like if you look back in history to when Campfellow was horse of the year, I think he raced 28 times, when Matt Scooter was horse of the year, I think he raced over 30. Well, there are a lot of therbirds that their their lifetime would never last even 28 starts. You know, the the the the toughness that's been bred into our horses genetically is you know outstanding. Now we we have approached a little bit more thoroughbred-like, like now, a lot of our horses are longer pasturing. When I when I first started practicing, you never saw a trotter run down. Like if you saw a trotter run down, it would be one out of a thousand. Now so many of them run down, and it's because of the way that you know we bred that longer pasturing into them, and and they're faster, but they they also you know there's there's a give and take with all this could you explain a rundown before we move on?
SPEAKER_05Like for those that are not in our sport, like when can you explain how a horse runs down and in as they're racing?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so so now because of their gait and because of uh their their angles of their foot and pasture, as they're as they're and and you know, thoroughbreds do this a lot, obviously, because they're running and they're not pacing or trotting like our horses are, but they'll they'll reach so far underneath themselves, some of these standard birds, when their foot lands, their ankle fetlock will actually touch the ground, yeah, and it will they will run down. So you've got to actually protect that.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00I used to work for Carl Allen, and and back in '99, he always said that he loved the long passer. And he said, that's speed. And you know, it right to your point today, that that's what we're seeing.
SPEAKER_01He and he was a sharp guy, Roy. Carl Allen, I I did some work for Carl and Rod, that that whole family, Marty. I know Marty Allen, those are you know, sharp guys.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, Carl was tough, but uh I love Carl, he was a good man.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, he sure was.
SPEAKER_00So back to Mr. Muscle Man, uh kind of off tug topic of what we're talking about. Uh, and I've been out of the business for well, I've been in Texas for four years now. Whatever happened to Adam Victor that used to own Mr.
SPEAKER_01Muscle Man? Well, Adam's still around. Um you know what happened? It was a so Adam and his son both really enjoyed harness racing, and it was something that they could do together. Well, after Adam's son graduated from college, he he's now in England working. So once that happened, I think Adam kind of didn't have the interest in it because he didn't have his son around. It they, you know, they were at the track, they loved it. I mean, you saw you saw that like they would they would be down at Knoll's barn all the time, and a lot of times he'd come down, his son would come down, stay with Noel, he'd be there jogging horses. It was, you know, it was it was a family affair to them. And and once once that all uh once he he kind of you know got past that stage of life where he now he had to get a job, um, things changed.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's uh I remember seeing them all the time. So yeah, and then one more thing to that. Uh we watched your we watched your your filly in the the breeders' crown. And this goes out to both of you. What do you think about okay? So you win the elimination, you get to pick your spot, this and that. Do you think that should be changed? Like the final and the limb are just open draws.
SPEAKER_01Well, no, the the the um uh the breeders crown, the way they do it there, um you get if you win, you wind up uh sometimes you wind up getting to pick your spot. Sometimes you wind up getting to draw from the five or the six in. Now, yeah, my Philly was second, so she didn't get the opportunity to to pick. She was in the open draw part. You know, she she raced just as good in the elimination as she did in the final, but unfortunately, just you know, wind wound up second twice.
SPEAKER_00See, I I would I would like to see an open draw. That I think it would mix racing up a little bit. Uh just me.
SPEAKER_01Well, I I I think I think a lot of times too that like if you're racing on a half-mile track, it's such an obstacle to have that outside position. And you know, you've already got the obstacle, you've got to go around four turns, and then you you you give yourself a tougher position. And and and it comes down to too, Roy, our sport horses race week in, week out. Like if you've got a three-year-old Cole Pacer, he could race for eight weeks in a row every week, and and not only race, but you know, have to race against the best horses in the sport, right? Which is just it's a it takes a toll on. So somewhere in there, um, you you know, to me, I I'd love I love to see those horses rewarded for racing hard and getting a better position for that final heat. Uh, but but I I do get your point about how you know the old patrol, it's all about excitement too, you know. That's that's that's part of it. And we we've got to have a product that's exciting for the fans.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's true. Uh but you know, uh to that, and you look at the little brown jug, it it say you come there with the eight-hole and you make it to the final, you know that you in the second heat you're gonna be stuck on the outside again, you know. Right and say you were in with wiggle it jiggle and lost for words, who won the two elimination when early drawed one, two. Uh, you know, now it could be switched. Maybe there's they're in the seven and eight hole, and you're in the rail in the final, right? So, I mean, it would make racing a lot more interesting.
SPEAKER_01Uh that is an interesting point, Roy. That is an interesting point. There's no no question. It changes the whole complexion of those races.
SPEAKER_05It's it's fair. It's completely it's a completely valid, it's a valid concern, a valid point. And you know, we always say like one of the toughest things about being in harness racing is people it's hard to make change. And uh this is one of the things, this is one of the mechanisms that I love is just having that open forum to hear what other people think and why they think it. And and and I think you bring up a really, really good point, Roy. I I am gonna switch gears a little bit. Um, Dr. Da, you have worked for many, many years. Obviously, the physical work and being on the track and working and in the veterinary um work that you do, but you've done a ton of work on um protecting racing and helping educate a lot of politicians, legislators, lobbyists, and in that. Um, you are currently stand on the SBOA, the Stanford Breeders of New Jersey Board of Directors. You used to, I believe it was RMTC, the racing racetrack medication board you were on as well years ago before it was disbanded. Is that correct as well?
SPEAKER_01Well, I was I was on the racing committee for the AEP and several times I've been on that off and on. And the and they they when uh you know so we developed the white paper, I was on that group, and then uh after that, I was put on several medication committees by the AEP. Um and I was actually asked by the USTA when when they were looking into the HISA situation. Yes, I was on that committee.
SPEAKER_05Yes. One of the biggest um misconceptions or just people don't even have the chance to know because they're not within what we do. Being located in New Jersey where you are, you're technically a tri-state, but really more than that uh jurisdiction. A lot of people don't realize that each racing commission has their own set of medication rulings, withdrawal limits, and and and that is a very difficult time as a practicing veterinarian because with Canada, Delaware, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Kentucky. Um, you know, could you kind of explain to the listeners a bit a little bit about how tough it is for that every state has a different medication ruling?
SPEAKER_01Oh, and you know, actually, it's a it's a great point you just brought up because really it's more even more complicated than that because all these guys are trying to race their horses so so now we're in a situation here because we've got the infrastructure here in New Jersey we can race in New York we could race in Pennsylvania we can race in Delaware Canada we yeah Canada we're racing in Ohio we're racing Lexington but in the in the same week a horse might not get in New York and then now this horse is shifted to try and enter Poconos or Chester because they want to try and race that horse so so you've you know I have to be mindful of all those rules when I'm medicating these horses because you know I I don't want to have to tell a trainer uh we really can't race that horse because I've injected that horse with something so you know it it's it's um it's something certainly that we're used to it and it's it's something certainly that we can work with but you have to have a familiar figure you have to be familiar with all those different withdrawal periods and what might be different at like like uh one thing that was kind of interesting is was the amicar situation yeah because Delaware was allowing horses to race on amicar and in New Jersey you couldn't have amicar in your in your system when you race so now if a horse raced in Delaware on Monday and received amicar at the racetrack through the racing officials there and then that horse turned around and raced again on Saturday night at the Meadowlands and was tested that horse could come up positive to something that it received at the track on Monday when it was racing legally right in Delaware.
SPEAKER_05Right.
SPEAKER_01So that that's you know which is a situation that should never occur.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_01You know you know the the bottom line is I don't even know that AMACA is a very effective drug period. I don't know how much it even helps sources. I don't even use the drug yeah so you know and and we've and I think that's one of my problems I have with HISA is the simple fact that their levels are so low they're they're what they you know the drugs that they considerable tolerable they have a list of drugs that you're allowed to use but then there's a used list of drugs that they consider not acceptable.
SPEAKER_05And in our sport we race every week so if it is acceptable in Delaware and that's a licensed racing commission and that horse races the following week in New York or New Jersey and is penalized from something that legally he could get in Delaware right that's it's really a problem and part of it you know obviously these are uh a tougher situation for us because we do race every week and the thoroughbreds they race once a month a lot of them so you know it's a different situation and it's it's such it's a as a horseman it's such a frustrating thing to see and Roy you you you know this too you've seen this with your eyes I mean the reality of it is what happens a lot of times is like everything there's good and bad in in a sport the good is really really good in harness racing and the bad is actually it's there it's there I'm sure but a lot of times when you have these very very difficult defined a little bit completely non-cohesive non-nationalized medication rulings and you have 150 head or 75 head and you're racing every week and you're down at Delaware and you receive AMCAR and on I'm gonna make this up for the sake of simplicity and race at Dover Downs on a Tuesday the Meadowlands calls and says hey listen we cannot fill that race on Friday and then you're in the box and then subsequently you end up with a positive that those positives optically or and I hate the word optics because I'm always tough on people to use it but that that trainer then receives a positive that trainer then has to face you know your the the commissions and fight for his rights and you know this gets leaked out to the press the press just automatically assumes the negative and so we have a very very deep structural issue that occurs where there's not you know overages on therapeutics with so many different rulings doesn't always mean that you're a guilty party duping horses and that's one thing that I've always been so thankful to have you as a camaraderie as a person to chat with of what you've done it's a it's a it's an uphill battle which I know you know more than anybody each commission doesn't really want to change their rules um they're pretty much black and white but in from a marketing position it's very hard to defend our sport when the press sees so much sees that is such a negative when when really you know when we're testing and the sensitivity of our testing is so extreme.
SPEAKER_00Am I did I say that in a way that's cohesive because I feel like I live it and it's so hard to explain no you did absolutely uh the the problem I have with commissions and uh actually you probably know this but in 2008 I I I got a uh a positive for EPO went before a judge had the people come in from the lab anyway the judge I was found to be innocent uh because the levels I just had gotten a horse four days ago uh anyway the judge said innocent no fine no suspension sent her ruling to the to the commission commission said trainer's responsibility three years five thousand there you go that's a problem I have and I also agree with you actually it seems that our sport and we know this is own worst enemy they would rather publicize bad news hey we got this bad guy you know uh they would rather do that that than to uh to help our sport in any good way right I I mean I I don't think that they would rather I think it's convenient you know I I I think that out of you you're going to always see more negative than positive um because that's what gets the likes and the views and the attraction and the attention I think we've just gotten to the point where um there's so many a lot of the trouble I think we have is lack of educating our public and ultimately it's why you know why Roy and I decided to do uh something like this podcast and invite someone like Dr.
SPEAKER_05Dye um before before we get too deep into that because we could go all day uh Dr.
SPEAKER_01Dye would you talk a little bit about um exercise induced pulmonary hemorrhaging the use of LASIKs because I know that that affects um a lot like competitors all equine competitors oh yes I mean that that's a problem especially uh some of the horses that that you deal with yourself actually I mean uh a lot of these one of the things that really surprised surprised me about barrel horses was the amount of bleeding that you see in these barrel horses and because it it it has to do with speed you know that that's really kind of the limiting factor with these these horses that are bleeding and quarter horses just they're they're at a higher speed than thoroughbreds and thoroughbreds are at a higher speed with standardbreds and because of that the quarter horses bleed more the thoroughbreds bleed certainly more than the standards but it's a problem with all breeds and and really what's occurring there is a lot of that is just the situations that we put horses in because we train you know that a lot of that is coming from a lower airway disease problem because they're in barns because there's dust there and it causes the lung to produce mucus now oxygen exchange that occurs there is harder and because of that boom now we get we get leakage there at the alveolo level and that leakage then if if we don't do things to treat that that leakage turns into a bigger problem. Now we've got a horse that every time it's competing it's bleeding so fortunately for us we have the ability to race on LASIKs and help these horses now a lot of communities won't allow that if you go to Australia New Zealand over in Europe they won't allow horses to race on LASIKs and which really is disappointing because when you know a horse has a problem and you have the ability to help that horse with a product like LASIKs to me you've got to help the horse horse comes first in these situations. And and you know if you go to the Olympics you see these Olympic athletes there a lot of those Olympic athletes they're competing with you know different problems that and there are treatments that they're using for those problems. Right and as long as the medical team there is aware of it right and they're they're allowed to compete now which is a similar situation with us like like if our horses if we know they're bleeding we can then enter that horse on LASIKs and treat that horse. Yes and and and you know it's a problem with the barrel horses that you use Ashley I mean you you know a lot of these a lot of these young ladies that are running their horses on barrels they need LASIKs as well right right go ahead Ryan do you see I I know that barrel racing and race horses are different but you do you also do uh ranch sorting yeah yes I do my my wife and I uh that's that's kind of a hobby for us and uh she loves it I I go go around with her and ship her around and uh we've we've we have managed to get our hands on a couple real nice quarter horses that uh fortunately for us are our quarter horses are much better than we are and uh and and every once in a while we um we even have a little fun and my my wife's uh won a buckle there uh maybe a few months ago so uh we're we're we're doing okay yeah that makes it worth it do you see bleeding in them at all not really not really i mean because they to be honest with you Roy uh when you compete obviously there's there are periods there where um they're going but it's a small pen and and really the optimal situation for you is to have real fresh cattle so when the cattle are moving really fast you've got to move really slow so um you know you don't I mean they're not they're not subjected to that fitness level and I look at a lot of them when they come in and out of those pens and and you know I look at their respiratory rates and you know they're not near the the the level like a quarter would have when it ran barrels.
SPEAKER_04Right do you see the tie-up with those at all you can you can see tie up you know because they'll you know what one thing about um a lot of the quarter horse ranch horse type horses if you stable them all the time you know they just don't get that routine that you need when you know and when when a horse doesn't have routine and they're and they're uh capable of tying up that's when you see it right yeah yeah well listen duck we were just curious if you were a coffee drinker I am okay so how do you how do you take your coffee when when you make your cup of coffee I drink my coffee just almost almost straight black with a little bit of milk and it's it's it's skim milk that I use have you have the opportunity no sugar you don't want any cream heavy cream like I do nothing and and I only I only have one cup of like caffeinated coffee a day even that I I mix decaffein with it we are so lucky that we have partnered with this uh season's podcast with Cowpuncher Coffee um producer Britt go ahead and roll that tape if you don't mind thank you to our great sponsor Cow Puncher Coffee for the day it isn't just a cup it's a kick in the saddle bold smooth and built for early mornings and long days it feels the kind of determination that gets work done rich flavor without the bitterness strong enough for the arena smooth enough for the pork find it at cowhuntercoffee.com awesome thank you so much Britt um before we head into our very final quick fire questions deck I do want to ask you in from all of your experience your many years doing this if there is one thing that you can change to promote harness racing better what would that be well I think you know the biggest thing for our sport is just like any sport now you need big events you know it's it's the day-to-day stuff I I don't think people get excited about that yeah and you know you you need to have events like the Hamiltonian the little brown jug like Roy was talking about um the breeders crown obviously uh you know those those events are the ones that we need to promote and and and create excitement uh going into that you know that you don't have to ask when the Super Bowl's playing because everybody knows you you you've been you've been waiting for six months for it to happen so you know we have to we have to be able to create that kind of thing and and obviously you know to your point Ashley I mean those negative things they don't do anything to help us anything that's negative and and and education and uh awareness because a lot of these positives that we have that we talk about really are 100% therapeutic overages just like you talked about and you know things likete has been around the racetrack for you know 75 years and and it's pretty easy to understand how these you know little and the simple fact that we portray these when you see it a lot of times in the media they'll be oh a major painkiller yeah you know horses horses can be on butte for for years without it being a problem so you know there's a there's a lot of misunderstanding that um we need to clean up there is and and I always say what if you're in the business long enough uh and my brother's he's got a 30 30 30 to 40 ahead of every year and then you got guys like Burke and and no daily and all that if you're in the business long enough you have too many variables to think that you're gonna slide through without some kind of accident or you know environmental exactly what whether whether it be a groom or something they they picked up in the grass whatever it's gonna happen.
SPEAKER_01Yeah and that's where I I think our sport needs to say hey could have been an accident like you know instead of publicize it and make us look bad right yeah yeah um listen we're gonna get to quickfire questions but before I do that Roy do you have any any follow-up with doc that you want to ask or bring up before we go well just just one thing doc when excuse me when Ashley and I started this uh we want to get that the crossover with rodeo and harness racing yeah um you know uh right now I'm I'm really involved in in uh Texas rodeo athletes I think if we bring someone like Casey Field or Tyson Darfey like the big like world champions let's bring them to the handbook right let's get coverage of them sitting behind a horse and we could get that crossover i i i just think it would help both industries oh roy i i i couldn't agree with you more i mean it's interesting you you kind of brought that up so during the covet period you know you you've got not much to do so i'm not a big tv watcher but obviously there's a lot a lot less time a lot more time to do this kind of thing so so we started watching yellowstone which obviously horse related everything else so yeah you know actually knows my wife and my wife is a cowboy hat fanatic like she cannot go anywhere without a cowboy hat on so everywhere we go she's got a cowboy hat on and needless to say everybody loves cowboy hats and and you know the the I can't count the number of times that we've had people come up to her I love your hat do you watch Yellowstone and all that interest is about do you ride horses that's the next question they ask you yeah so you know the there's no question there's so many similarities and and really um Roy I I know you you know because you're in involved with uh the Western type people I mean it's a great group of people the the the best part about the ranch writing you you brought that up was is really the people that we meet you know we we get a chance to compete I mean my wife and I are 30 years older than most of the people we're competing yet so we're already at a disadvantage and um so usually you know 98% of the time when we go to these shows we are donating money you know that's that's that's how it goes but but it it's it's invaluable what we get back in in you know being around a bunch of guys that all have their cowboy hats on their cowboy boots and and are are monkeying around with a bunch of quarter horses and and it's it's a lot of fun yeah I uh I love it you know you're selling yourself short because he's got some he's got some real nice strange sword horses so I don't he's trying to like sneak if somebody from RSTPA is watching this he doesn't want them to know that he's he's he's a big horseman um this big shout out to your wife um peggy die uh Dr.
SPEAKER_05Steve Peggy is an incredible incredible advocate for the Western lifestyle her she has helped donated her time donated her funds stepped up when when gals and guys needed help sponsored and I apologize the gentleman's name she sponsored a gentleman from Oklahoma that was just got his PRCA card you guys have done a ton of incredible work peg has spearheaded that section of of your life because you're really really busy there on the farm the two of you are a little peanut butter and jelly and I absolutely love it I do so uh big thanks to to Peg Dye because she's an incredible lady yeah thank you thanks yeah okay quick fire questions don't think too much of it uh favorite movie uh favorite movie Rocky okay what plays on the radio in the vet truck all day I I don't have the radio on in my vet truck okay nothing so you're usually on the phone yeah yeah uh favorite cocktail margarita early bird or a night owl early bird who's your biggest both for me really you don't sleep much huh no uh who's your biggest cheerleader probably my daughter probably uh who's your toughest critic Oh myself that's easy uh pet peeve of yours um pet peeve I think you know I don't know that I really have any pet peeves impulse purchase something that you just had to have an impulse purchase well you know with me it always wanted
SPEAKER_01Up being a horse.
SPEAKER_05Awesome. Well, Steve, it was such a pleasure. I cannot thank you enough. You're a very, very busy man. Thank you for taking the time to spend with Roy and I. Um, we appreciate you so much, and we hope everybody listening uh got to see who you truly are, and we're so thankful to have you.
SPEAKER_01Well, anytime I appreciate you guys just having me. So thank you very much. You ever get to Texas, you just look me up and uh I will too, Roy. We're we get down there. I'll look you up down there. No questions. I plan on being at the Hambo, so I'll hopefully get to meet you. There you go. That sounds good. All right.
SPEAKER_05Awesome. Thanks, guys, and that's a wrap for us. We'll see you soon.
SPEAKER_01Thanks.
SPEAKER_04That was another episode of Under the Lights with Ash and Roy. Thank you to the sponsors and Cow Puncher Coffee for this episode. Whether you're headed home from the arena or just getting your day started, we're glad you spent some time with us. Around here, it's all about the stories behind the grind. We want you to be part of the story too. So comment, connect, and follow right here on this platform. And don't miss a hoof beat. Wherever life's got you riding, stay tough, stay true. And we'll meet you right back here next time, under the lights, with Action Raw.