Chuck Sylvester - Season 1 Episode 6

Four Hambletonians. Elitloppet Winner, Hall of Fame legacy. And THE horseman behind one of the greatest trotters to ever step on a racetrack—Mack Lobell. From humble Midwest beginnings to the brightest lights in harness racing, he’s spent a lifetime developing champions, shaping bloodlines, and raising the bar for what greatness looks like in this sport.

Known for his unmatched ability with young trotters, his barn has produced some of the most iconic names in harness racing history—Pine Chip, Muscles Yankee, Waikiki Beach—horses that didn’t just win, they defined eras. His program, his eye, and his discipline have made him one of the most respected minds the game has ever seen.

Decades of excellence. Generations of champions. And a legacy that continues to influence the sport today… this is Chuck Sylvester.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Hey everybody, welcome to Under the Lights with Ash and Roy. I'm one of your hosts, Ashley Keetrick. I am here with Roy Gingis, my favorite co-host. We are so excited today because we are going to a legend of the trotting horses and the standard red breed. And uh Chuck, Sylvester, thank you so much for joining us.

SPEAKER_04 0:22

It's my pleasure.

SPEAKER_02 0:24

You're an absolute legend. You've been around for a lot of years with incredible horses. You are in the Hall of Fame. You are a true master of developing trotters and spending decades of horsemanship under your belt. Um, thank you so much for joining us.

SPEAKER_04 0:42

Told you, that's my pleasure to be interviewed, I guess.

SPEAKER_02 0:48

Now you are currently in Florida, correct?

SPEAKER_04 0:51

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 0:52

Are you staying in Florida for the winters? Are you there for good now?

SPEAKER_04 0:55

I'm for good. The last two years I haven't gone north. I stay right here.

SPEAKER_02 0:59

That's nice. That's you're smarter than the rest of us, really. Before we get too deep into the accolades, let's talk a little bit about growing up in your childhood. Could you take us back there?

SPEAKER_04 1:13

Sure. Uh I grew up in Toledo, Ohio. Uh my father was uh owned a trucking company, a small trucking company. And uh I never saw a horse till I was 18 or 19 years old. Uh I was a freshman at Bowling Green University. I went there because I didn't want to go to the Army. Back then they drafted you. So I was in college and my dad I commuted from Toledo, which is about a 30-mile commute. And he said to me one day, go to the fairgrounds. I have a couple of horses over there training, which I didn't even know he had. I went over there and had this old gentleman, about 80-some years old, training. And he said, Go ahead and you can jog. So eventually I jogged the horse. He said, Go two or three times around and go over there by that grandstand and turn the other way. And I did that. Holy Christ, the horse took off. And I thought he had an old jog cart ready to fall apart. And uh, I'll never forget I wouldn't mount three minutes and I thought, my god, I'm flying out here, you know. That was my first experience.

SPEAKER_02 2:24

And you'd never touched a horse prior to that day.

SPEAKER_04 2:27

No, and I was I think I was a freshman or sophomore in college.

SPEAKER_02 2:32

Well, right, check is proof of exactly what you say all the time. Anybody can do this, you show them.

SPEAKER_04 2:41

I ruined a lot of them at first because I didn't know any better, but it took me a while to learn.

SPEAKER_00 2:46

Yeah, yeah, I think that's uh all of us when we when we start out like that. So uh, so being from Ohio, you and you and Gene Regal became friends.

SPEAKER_04 2:57

Well, uh, only races. He trained in Greenville and I trained at Bowling Green, which is quite a ways apart. I would only see him at the fairs.

SPEAKER_00 3:06

I got you, yeah, yeah. Two legends, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:10

Yeah, that turned out pretty incredible.

SPEAKER_04 3:13

Gene was on top of the world at that time. He uh, you know, he had great horses, expensive horses, and I was dealing with real cheap horses, but uh he was very good, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:24

Chuck, about what year did you know that you wanted to train horses for a living?

SPEAKER_04 3:30

Probably a year or so when I was in. Uh, my dad bought a couple of yearlings, and we had four horses. And I after my sophomore year, I quit college and went to training horses full-time, and uh, I knew that's what I like to do, and I wasn't very good at first. And trial and error, I learned because the guys at the fairgrounds back then they wouldn't help you at all. They was competitive, and they let you train every day if you wanted to. They didn't know and they didn't care, they let you ruin your horse. So, after a while, I learned you know the routine. And I remember the first time I went to the jug, I don't remember what year it was. I saw Stanley Dancer and Billy Hall. I said, Oh my god, look at those stables. That's what I want to be someday. So that was my goal.

SPEAKER_00 4:16

That's a did you have a mentor, somebody that you looked up? I mean, besides the Houghtons and the dancers.

SPEAKER_04 4:25

No, it's an old gentleman, and uh he was he had Alzheimer's, so he could sometimes we trained every day of the week because he can didn't remember that we trained the day before, and eventually I found out you can't do that after I ruined them all. But uh no, I had it was just trial and error by myself. Wow, that's impressive.

SPEAKER_02 4:44

Transitioning from Ohio fair racing, I mean, and fast forward to the elite lop and and incredible Hamiltonian victories. There's a lot that happened in between there, but let's talk about how we got when did you start to transition to stakes horses and hire caliber bred horses?

SPEAKER_04 5:04

Well, the best horse I had back then was a horse called Diamond Exchange. Uh, we bought him on the coin for $6,000, me and my partner, and he turned out to be a good horse. And uh he uh in fact he raced and he made a break in a handle, but he raced in a handle and he won the trotting derby. And that was quite a story because we were both broke. We went out west to the trotting derby and had no money and give him a bad check, and we hadn't win the race, so we were thank god that we won because we had no money to cover the check. So that was a good story.

SPEAKER_00 5:44

Oh my gosh, was that the first horse uh that that that people really paid attention to who Chuck Sylvester was?

SPEAKER_04 5:53

I think so because Billy Houghton at the time, this horse wouldn't sit in and follow, he'd shake his head all the time. And I remember one of the stake races out west. I sat on the top of on the outside of Billy the whole mile, and he beat me by a head. And he says, Where in the hell did you get that horse? He said, he said he went a hell of a mile. They said, Well, he won't sit in. So eventually I found that I found my father had a like trucking business, they had a welder there, and I took welder's lens and ground him down and put him in peekaboos, and that would color the stone dust where he didn't jump all the time, and that's how I learned to be a good horse.

SPEAKER_02 6:33

That's the kind of stuff I love.

SPEAKER_00 6:35

I love actually do you remember those things?

SPEAKER_04 6:38

The the big cups that oh yeah, yeah, and I put a little welder's lens on each on each one, and it just made everything look more gray, and he didn't therefore he didn't find we would follow the pebbles off the track and duck them, and uh after a while he got so he would follow.

SPEAKER_02 6:58

Unbelievable. That's it's it's just shows it goes to show the horsemanship here that that you know. I I'm sure we could talk about that forever and ever. Speaking back, I'm a little biased. I'm gonna go back to Dew Coin and Springfield. I'm from Illinois, absolutely fell in love with those racetracks. Do you have any significant memories from the Dew Coin and in Springfield days?

SPEAKER_04 7:25

Well, uh the coin is where I won the world or the was yeah, world trotting derb, I think it was called back then. And that's where we give the bad check. We had to go three heats. Bobby Williams was my driver then, and we ended up winning. So that was you know, that was a big boost to us. That was a lot of money for us back then.

SPEAKER_02 7:46

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 7:48

We always love to go those tracks because you always after coming off of Michigan back then, I was racing kind of in Michigan, they were so much faster, you could go so much faster out there.

SPEAKER_00 7:59

Yeah, yeah. You also had Springfield, right? Yes, yeah, that's where Max set the uh world record, right?

SPEAKER_04 8:07

Yeah, and it was windy that day. It wasn't uh it was hot, but windy as hell.

SPEAKER_00 8:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:13

So transitioning back to the East Coast, do you remember about what year you started you were in New Jersey and New York area?

SPEAKER_04 8:23

That was Diamond Exchange. I can't remember what the hell year it was back in the 70s. And I took him out there when he was at three, and uh and I left him with uh uh Ray Remon. And Ray, after the handball, he made a break, he couldn't keep him flat, and he sent him home. He said, I don't think he's gonna do here, Chuck. So he sent him back home to me. Now waited until he was four, then went back. And then at four, he really got consistent and would and could beat the big boys.

unknown 8:54

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 8:55

Now, a lot of the stories that we're gonna talk about in the horses we looked at are trotters. Talk to us about your heart for a trotter, or and did you have a lot of pacers in the barn as well?

SPEAKER_04 9:08

I had a few pacers. Uh, the best one I think I ever had probably was laughs. Uh he was a good horse. But uh with the trotters, I found out at the fairgrounds just about everybody had pacers, and with the trotters, they didn't get along with them. And it seems like I got along with the trotters, so I swayed towards trotters all the time.

SPEAKER_02 9:29

For for our listeners that are not in harness racing or don't have the harness racing um background, it reminds me a little bit in the quarter horse land, the difference between barrel horse bred horses and like pleasure or cattle bred horses. Your barrel horses are bred to be a little hotter, they're a little flightier, a little, it's just a different beast. Where, you know, you have a cow horse, a cattle bread, they're more laid back. The trotters always seem to be a little bit higher alert, more perceptive.

SPEAKER_04 10:06

They're much more flighty, and our horses are much calmer than what they are.

SPEAKER_00 10:12

Yeah, for sure. And and back in the day, Chuck, uh you know, I grew up in the business as well. Back then you had to shoe a trotter different than you do today. Uh I I think they were just a little more rugged, and uh the breeding's gotten so good that you don't have to do no quite the things we did back then.

SPEAKER_04 10:34

They're really natural now. Back then I wore heavy shoes on a lot of them, and you know, we started out the fairs like at Washington and went in 211, 212. Yeah, back then with and then by the end of the year you were trotting around 27, but that was big back then, you know. Yeah, but nowadays the they're all some trotters race the aluminum shoes now, so you know they're just natural now.

SPEAKER_02 11:01

One of the toughest parts I think about watching horse trainers and being a successful horse trainer is the the horses are its own beast, but dealing with owners and expectations, perceptions, and finances is really very difficult. And you've done this very, very well over decades.

SPEAKER_04 11:23

Could you tell us about how that with owners, they most of them listen to me, but you know, with me with the trotter, I found out that watching other trainers back then, even when I got a bigger stable, horses would be lame, and trainers didn't know it. Uh I could see their horse was getting lame. They I never said anything, and first thing you know, they had to be dead lame before they found out the horse was bad. But I always could figure out early that a horse was getting off, and I treat him and then he recovered. But with owners, I always just treated them all alike. Uh I tell them the truth. If our horse was no good, I'd tell them, and uh I never had any problems that way.

SPEAKER_00 12:07

Yeah, I think that's the best way to go about it.

SPEAKER_04 12:09

Yeah, it was, yes.

SPEAKER_02 12:11

Yeah, if you were to give advice to a young trainer starting out today, is there one specific piece of advice you'd give?

SPEAKER_04 12:20

Just have more patience. These guys are getting them ready too early, and most of the time they wear out before the summer's over. You know, I made a point that as a two-year-old, eight to ten starts, that was it. No more. Try to save him and end up fresh so he could come back the next year. I made a mistake with Mac because he was my first great horse. I raced him 17 times, maybe 18 times to the two-year-old. And I thought, oh my god, you know, now I think back at that, that was way too many. But he responded, so I was lucky.

SPEAKER_00 12:55

Yeah, it's funny you say that because uh Mark Weaver was on our our podcast a couple weeks ago, and and we got talking about that because I agree with you, you should limit the number of stars for two-year-olds, and the way Kentucky is going now, uh, the money's getting so good, you have to race these things so many times to even get in the final.

SPEAKER_04 13:17

Yeah, true.

SPEAKER_00 13:18

And I I I love the money, but I hate that you have to race a two-year-old so many times.

SPEAKER_04 13:25

Most of the time, if you race them 12, 14 times as a two-year-old, by the end of the year, they're not gonna be a great three-year-old, they won't come back as tough as they would if you stopped at eight or nine starts. Right.

SPEAKER_02 13:40

Speaking of MacLobell, you're we would I I've never been able, I've never heard the story from the beginning, from the yearling days of MacLobell. Could you take us to that horse and talk a little bit about uh his beginnings with you as a trainer?

SPEAKER_04 13:58

Well, when we got him, of course, Levitt had heavy shoes on all of his yearlings when they left. He'd come with a uh maybe a keg shoe in front, but something pretty close, real heavy.

SPEAKER_03 14:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 14:11

When I got him, he trotted good, but he had all that weight on, and and every time I try to lighten him up, he'd get pacey. So we just got that weight. Yeah, that's his two-year-old year, and he'd make breaks, do stupid things. And I remember the day in February we were gonna go mount in the 40s. We had a stable of you know five or six trains together back then, and he made a break. I wasn't driving while the boys were, and I said he just earned himself another trip, so we waited a little while, took him back out, and went down to half and 20 and steered him up, and he went a mound 22 in February. And I said, Oh boy, put him away, boys. We got a good one. From that point on, you just knew he was gonna be a good horse.

SPEAKER_02 14:55

Yeah, yeah. And then he had an incredible two-year-old year, and then he was in 1988, or was it I think what year? How old was he when he went to the elite law?

SPEAKER_04 15:08

Four.

SPEAKER_02 15:09

He was a four-year-old. So that would have been in '87. He was a three-year-old. And tell us a little bit about his three-year-old year.

SPEAKER_04 15:18

Well, after erasing him so many times at two, I decided to look at we we can't do this. So we started late with him, and I think he only had maybe three starts before the handball, maybe four at the most. And that's why he was fresh. But uh, you know, back then you went two heats all the time, and eventually he got tired at the end of the year. But he was such a smart horse and could go as long as you didn't ask him too much. He uh, I think at Delaware we were gonna set the world's record, and John kept asking him down the back stretch, and he was in front by maybe 15, and uh he decided that's enough, and he came to almost a three-minute clip. Everybody caught him, then he took off again. He still wanted to set the world's record, but after he tried to draw up, because John said, Oh, I asked him one too many times, and that's the way he was. He had an attitude that way.

SPEAKER_00 16:16

Yeah, it's funny, and and they if uh Chuck knows I don't know after the Hamiltonian, they crossed the wire and he made a break.

SPEAKER_04 16:24

Yes, our feet were stinging that day, it was hot, they couldn't get any cushion on the track, and I was prepared for it. I had my blacksmith beforehand make up a set of shoes with a full pad on them. Yeah, so after the first sheet, that's what we did. We pulled his shoes off and put the other ones on, and it helped him, but still the track was very hard.

SPEAKER_00 16:44

See, after all these after all these years, now I know this the story.

SPEAKER_02 16:47

Yeah, you know. It's so crazy. Coming transitioning from a three-year-old to four-year-old, did you have your eyes set on going to Europe with this horse?

SPEAKER_04 17:03

Well, well, I think Gaida did more than me. Yeah, he had talked to people over there and they said they'd like to invite him. And it's tough taking a four-year-old over there, yes, because those are all aged horses, but he was so dominant and come back so good. Uh I said, Well, let's you know, we'll give it a try. But that was a bad week, too, because when he got over to the lead lap, he wouldn't go. He decided to walk and jog. He got like a stud thing or something, and he wouldn't train. And I there was a picture of him on the front of the page with me pushing him and and Randy and Groom pulling him, and he's on the track just taking one step at a time. And I thought, oh my god. And I called the owner and I said, If if I can't get him to train by Thursday, we're we can't race. Well, just lucky, uh, I think it was Lynch that came to me and said, 'Look, I'll bring a couple of prompters out.' And they bought two horses out and he trained with us and trained super, but he would he wanted company, he wouldn't go by himself at all. Yeah, that's like that was a I never watched a race that day on the reruns. I was so nervous. I thought he's gonna draw up in the first turn. Well, he never did, he was perfect.

SPEAKER_00 18:19

I remember that that piece uh they they asked John about the elite law, and he said Chuck called me Frantic saying he won't go. Yeah, just like put him with another horse. He said, We tried it, and he won't go. And uh I I see the video you're you pulling him, and he just he's not having it.

SPEAKER_04 18:38

No, that's true. He just decided that's enough. He didn't kick or anything, just planted himself, looked around and like king of the mountain, and that was him. He had an attitude of his own.

SPEAKER_02 18:51

Oh my goodness. Well, for for those again who who may not know, the elite lop is a very elite open trot in in Sweden, in Stockholm. It's one of the most magnificent events I have personally ever been to. Uh the it it is the Super Bowl of harness racing. Is there any other better way to explain that, Chad?

SPEAKER_04 19:20

No, that was that it was thousands and thousands of people there, and uh it was amazing. That day when I warmed him up, he started the same thing, just walking and walking. But the people started cheering so much that he finally kind of spooked him and he took off and jogged. But uh it was because the people they remember it was 40, 50,000 people there, you know, and uh they just it kind of scared him a little, and so he went and jogged and did his work.

SPEAKER_00 19:46

Oh well uh there had to be a certain amount of pressure. Oh not not only because him balking, but you're looking at one of the greatest at the time, the greatest trotter ever to come back. And now how much how was the pressure trying to win this thing?

SPEAKER_04 20:05

Oh, it was crazy, it was terrible. Uh, and then the owner, the guy was gonna buy him. What the hell was his name? Uh he was standing there, he was getting the money from the bank, and he stood next to me during the race, and his was back was to the track too. And when he won, he turned around and he says, Chuck, you just made me a million dollars. Because he had that he had bought him for 500 million or and sold him for six. So that same day, the bank owned him, I think, at the time. Then he won the elite lob the next year for them. He won it two years in a row, yes.

SPEAKER_02 20:45

Well, we know you couldn't watch that race um in person live because you had your back to it. Is it okay if we watch it here together?

SPEAKER_04 20:55

Oh, I've seen it several times since sure.

SPEAKER_02 20:57

I figured you had seen it a million times. Oh, yeah. Producer Britt, do you mind bringing up uh Maclabell's um Elite Lop Star? This is an old tape, it's from 1988. So you know, bear with us, everybody who's who's watching it. It's a little tough to see.

SPEAKER_04 21:15

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 21:16

We'll uh we'll get her playing it. And let's see, is there a full full screen option on there, Britt? Where did he have? Did he have the rail?

SPEAKER_04 21:28

No, no, he was out. I think he's on uh on the outside now, I think, going to the front. I think.

SPEAKER_02 21:36

Okay, there he is. Yeah, three wide on the outside.

SPEAKER_04 21:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:39

Now, do you remember the other horses in this race well?

SPEAKER_04 21:43

At the time I did. Now I can't retard. There was a mare in there, it was very good. I know that.

SPEAKER_00 21:48

And if uh that's John's top there.

SPEAKER_04 21:52

Oh, yeah, he was in top. Yes, he was. And the rest of the way, and there was a good mare behind him, and he knew if he let this guy go that that mayor was in. Come out right away, right? So that's why he didn't let anybody go. He just hung on to him and let him do his own thing.

SPEAKER_02 22:08

Did he did you guys did John Campbell is a Hall of Fame, one of the most incredible drivers? He's the GOAT of harness drivers. Did you two speak a lot about strategy going into this race?

SPEAKER_04 22:20

No, no, just hope that he behaved, and we knew he had the ability to beat him if he would just behave himself and try. Yeah, because he had he had more class than the rest. And then we're all aged horses, you know.

SPEAKER_02 22:34

Yeah, yeah. And we've spoken about this a little bit, Roy and I. When you're a four-year-old going into harness racing, you race with four-year-olds plus. So there were nine nine-year-olds in there, seven year olds in a lot of experience.

SPEAKER_04 22:48

He was the only four-year-old for sure.

SPEAKER_02 22:50

Oh, he was. Okay. And that's still him on the front. Um, did you ever turn around and just peek at the track when you were there?

SPEAKER_04 23:01

Um I might have a little bit towards the end, I think, when he was calling him in front so much. Then right at the end, I watched it, I think.

SPEAKER_02 23:11

What was the elite lot purse that year?

SPEAKER_04 23:14

I'm guessing 350, maybe right in there. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:19

350,000 Americans.

SPEAKER_04 23:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:22

Yep. Okay. Thanks, Brett. You know, it's so did he when after that start, did he stay in Europe?

SPEAKER_04 23:33

No, he came back.

SPEAKER_02 23:35

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 23:35

And I think we ered him in some races uh over here, and then he ended up shipping back over there at the end of the year.

SPEAKER_02 23:42

Okay, okay. That makes that's amazing.

SPEAKER_04 23:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:46

Um, wow, I can't imagine the ulcers that you had when you were trying to break.

SPEAKER_00 23:54

Yeah, it's well, I I think I think we're in well, we're in 2026 and a testament to you and MacLo Bell that when someone says who's the greatest trotter ever, MacLe still pops up, uh you know, 87, 88, and still today is relevant. So uh that's a great testament to you and and Mac.

SPEAKER_04 24:18

Well, then, yeah, and a cheap horse, too.

SPEAKER_02 24:22

What did he cost as a yearling?

SPEAKER_04 24:24

Do you 17,000?

SPEAKER_02 24:27

So Alan Levitt purchased him as a yearling?

SPEAKER_04 24:29

No, no, he bred him. You guys have bought him for 17,000.

SPEAKER_02 24:33

Okay, that's okay. 17,000.

SPEAKER_04 24:36

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 24:40

Was there ever any other good mystic parts?

SPEAKER_04 24:45

Not very good. I had a known that cost 90. He raced, but he wasn't that good.

SPEAKER_00 24:50

Okay, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Let's uh stay in the time era because uh I never get to ask anyone this question, but but Chuck, you know well uh one of my favorite mayors of all time, uh Peace Corps, who then uh they bred to Max. Well, you seen Peace Corps race back here. What were your thoughts on well?

SPEAKER_04 25:11

She was a great mare, she was great gated and could go, but I think uh there was times when she was just a little unsound, right? But you know, I watched her closely because she was competition back then, so yeah, right crazy.

SPEAKER_02 25:27

Another another roster Chuck Sylvester horse that just blows everybody's mind was Park Avenue Joe. How did you acquire this horse?

SPEAKER_04 25:39

That was Lou Gaida bought him for I think 90,000. And uh he trained good, but it was amazing as a three-year-old. I can't remember his two-year-old year, but as a three-year-old, he had 12 or 13 different drivers. He'd qualify and then he'd make a break in a race. In fact, I qualified him once myself, qualified and then make a break in a race. And he kept doing that all summer. And finally at the Ambo, he put it together, and that kind of cooked him because he had to go three heats that day, but uh yeah, he was not good, but uh it took a lot out of it.

SPEAKER_02 26:21

Heat racing, we have transitioned away from heat racing. I know what are your thoughts? What do you what were your feelings? For I mean, I hate to bring it up as we bring up that it was very difficult on Park Avenue, Joe. But did you enjoy heat racing?

SPEAKER_04 26:39

Yes, yeah, because I always felt there was things I could do in between trips to help the horse, and so I really enjoyed uh heat racing. Uh, I know I talked to Campbell about it and he was always against it, but I was always in favor of heat racing.

SPEAKER_02 26:56

Yeah, yeah. So Park Avenue, Joe, back to in the 1989 Hambletonian, he ended up having to go three heats. The first heat it now to have to go three heats, each horse that won a heat then competed together in the final, correct?

SPEAKER_04 27:15

Yes, yes, yeah. What was his we come back alone? I don't remember.

SPEAKER_03 27:20

Park Avenue Joe dead heated with pro.

SPEAKER_04 27:22

Yeah, in the final, but was there more people or was that the last heat?

SPEAKER_03 27:26

I didn't know we thought he went twice.

SPEAKER_02 27:30

Yeah, we're gonna we're gonna pull up um Britt. Go ahead and if you can pull up Park Avenue Joe's heat uh final heat race. This was which it might have been just two heats, I could be mistaken. Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_00 27:43

It was it was three heats, yeah. Oh okay.

SPEAKER_02 27:46

Yeah, maybe you weren't wrong. Yeah, you were right. Wow. This was a big deal to have it televised back then. Which one are you, Joe? Are you the rail or the outside? One and the second heat.

SPEAKER_04 28:02

I got Wapels driving my horse, so I was in I had the rail. Billy Fay drove the other horse.

SPEAKER_00 28:10

Was this Ronnie and Billy's only win in the Hambo? I believe I think so.

SPEAKER_04 28:16

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:20

Did you have any major changes after the elimination going into this final?

SPEAKER_04 28:24

No, no, he was he was good, as good as he could be. So uh we didn't make any changes. She loves we just uh I don't think we went very fast. I mean, might have come the last half hard last quarter, but I think mom around two four, two five, maybe somewhere there.

SPEAKER_00 28:45

Yeah, it's good to see him taking it easy and then they sprint for sure.

SPEAKER_04 28:49

Yeah, I think that's what they finally did because I see 29 and 4 for the quarter.

SPEAKER_00 28:54

So I think it was uh I think it was two minutes and two fifths if I remember.

SPEAKER_04 29:00

Was it?

SPEAKER_00 29:00

I believe. I don't I can't remember what I did yesterday, but I can remember back again. Yeah, well some crazy stuff.

SPEAKER_02 29:10

And what kind of host horse was probe? Nice.

SPEAKER_04 29:14

Yes, he was a nice horse. I mean, neither one of these were great horses, they were just nice horses.

SPEAKER_00 29:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 29:21

Now Park Evening, was he a Super Bowl or was oh uh my horse or probe, I think, was he kind of yeah, I think he was, yes.

SPEAKER_00 29:34

That was that was the definitely the era of uh Super Bowl Speedy Crown.

SPEAKER_02 29:39

Yeah, dominating the nation 133 and four. All right, here we go. It's so interesting to watch these races. Look at that. Your little horse had to fight, your horse had to fight back.

SPEAKER_04 29:56

Yeah, yeah. And that's something two minutes and two fifths. Wow.

SPEAKER_00 30:02

Yeah, geez. He looked like a little horse, Chuck. Was he?

SPEAKER_04 30:08

Uh yeah, well, he was pretty good size. He wasn't just real small horse, no.

SPEAKER_02 30:13

No, not quite as small as Chip Chip Herray.

SPEAKER_04 30:17

Oh, Chip Chip Herra is a lot smaller. Yeah, he was a he's still living by the farm where he trained.

SPEAKER_02 30:24

Oh, he is.

SPEAKER_04 30:25

Yeah, he's 26 years old, I guess.

SPEAKER_02 30:27

Yeah, yeah, he's a yes in 2000 and Chip Chip Harrae won the 2002 Hambletonian career.

SPEAKER_04 30:35

Right, so he was three yet, yes.

SPEAKER_02 30:37

Yeah, so uh tell us a little bit about how he came to you as yearling or two-year-old year.

SPEAKER_04 30:42

Well, my friend Neil Goldman, uh, that was one of his picks because he's a pedigree guy, and he just loved to buy horses uh on pedigrees, and uh he wasn't very big. And uh he said, uh we gotta buy this horse. I said, My God, he's a you know, he's a baby, he's small, he's little. He said, if you don't want to want him, I'll take him. So we bought him, and I took half of him and turned out to be great. So yeah, 20. I think he was 20,000.

SPEAKER_02 31:14

You've made a living with a lot of a lot of incredible buys. You know, speaking of that, you your at yearling sales and yearling books is very different and very unique to many others. I don't want to give all the Chuck Sylvester secrets away, but I'd love to hear from your point of view what you really look for when you're looking at yearlings and and looking at pedigree books.

SPEAKER_04 31:45

Well, naturally, uh, I look at their head first, everybody does. But as far as confirmation, I don't like to see a horse toe in real bad. Every horse I ever had that towed in bad would usually hit their shins. The only one that didn't was uh muscle hill or muscles Yankee.

SPEAKER_03 32:04

Yankee.

SPEAKER_04 32:04

He he told in a little, but he he got away with it. But most of them don't, and uh so I get I like horses that toe out just a little and not real wide chest, kind of a narrow chest, which is unusual too. So, because a wide-chested horse, it seems like they'll hit their knees where the narrow chest the ones don't.

SPEAKER_02 32:25

So what about superstitions? Do you have any superstitions? Like some people are really serious about swirls or mane on the circle side?

SPEAKER_04 32:35

Color doesn't bother me or anything like that.

SPEAKER_02 32:38

No, that's so cool. That's so cool. Well, I don't want to get too far from Chip Chip aura. Real, I want to circle back just because I'd love to sit and watch his Hambletonian with you, if that's okay. Um, do you mind bringing that up, Brett? We've got a our our behind-the-scenes producer takes really good care of us, so usually we can shoot her some some crazy things.

SPEAKER_04 33:04

Well, the favorite was Andover Hall, of course. Yes, and uh in the paddock, I saw Bobby Stewart and I says, Looks like you're gone down the road today, because he put a straight bit in his mouth, and usually you can't hold him too much with that. And uh, of course he got tucked in and uh and when he didn't get out, he ran up over the horse in front of him there.

SPEAKER_02 33:28

Yeah, that was him third on the rail.

SPEAKER_04 33:29

Yeah, yep, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:31

Where are you right now on this on the track?

SPEAKER_04 33:34

I think setting fifth.

SPEAKER_02 33:36

Okay, I think yep, yep, you're yeah, yes. So they're back out a little bit. Did that sort I bet Andover Hall making a break was a shock?

SPEAKER_04 33:47

Well, yeah, because he was the big favorite, and uh, I think we were probably uh maybe six to one, something like that. And uh we got lucky, those horses pulled and kept rolling as hard as they could, you know, and and it was good for us because we could sit back there and follow and collect the pieces at the end. Right there, I just felt oh god, we're gonna get a good check out of here. I didn't think we could win, but I thought for sure we're gonna get a good check, and then we're halfway around the last turn. Here you come. Lepher did a good job with him.

SPEAKER_00 34:27

Oh, yeah, he did for sure. Yeah, I remember I remember sitting in the Rosecroft uh paddock watching this, watching this race.

SPEAKER_02 34:36

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Unbelievable.

SPEAKER_00 34:40

Look out low.

SPEAKER_02 34:41

Yeah, this was Eric. Was this Eric's only Hamble Tony in Winfrey?

SPEAKER_04 34:46

Sure. Yeah, probably the only drive you ever had in the Hamble. I'm guessing.

SPEAKER_02 34:49

That was my next question. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:52

Chuck, you're giving these guys uh their first wins in the Hambo. Yeah, Waples and the Ledford. Yeah, was uh was John the first two?

SPEAKER_04 35:02

John, I think uh uh probably Mac was his first handbook. I'm guessing, yes.

SPEAKER_00 35:08

There you go, you got three of them.

SPEAKER_04 35:10

Yeah, that's pretty.

SPEAKER_02 35:13

I just love it.

SPEAKER_00 35:15

Yeah, that was that's pretty awesome. Well you got four to the credit. Yes, that's right.

SPEAKER_02 35:22

Yeah, yeah. Look at that. Yeah, it's fun looking small. He kind of reminds me of Market Chair's size.

SPEAKER_01 35:31

Oh, yeah, he was that small.

SPEAKER_02 35:34

Yeah, he was he he really shot up as four-year-old dear more, but he I just remember being so small. When you are thinking back to some of the most incredible horses you've had, there's a lot of great horses that sometimes fall through the cracks that don't get the accolades that they deserve. Was there anybody on your roster that you felt really didn't get the appreciation or didn't get a fair, fair shake at it?

SPEAKER_04 36:01

Well, he he he turned out to be a great horse was Pine Chip. Uh, he was a very good horse and bigger. And at the end of his three-year-old year, I told everybody he's better than Mac because he was stronger and could finish better and had a great attitude, but he never turned out to make the money Mac did in the elite lop. Uh, they wouldn't they changed the rules on me and I couldn't wear his equipment that I did here, so he ended up having a knee boot come down, which he never wore and made a break finishing. But uh I had to end up taking the four-hole leaving because they wouldn't let me use two head poles.

SPEAKER_02 36:39

Uh and that was a rule change that year, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 36:42

Because Mac wore two, and there's no problem. And I went over there and then they told me you can't wear two. Take your pick. So you know, after I got there, if I'd have known it, I would have wouldn't have given permission. I wouldn't have gone. I'd have said, Look, are you racing my way? Because I told them afterwards, I said, Look, you guys race with gating poles. I said, I don't care if you put them between your legs, you let them race with them. I said, We should be able to race with two head poles. But uh, yeah, he'd the one that race easy. He was by far the best horse.

SPEAKER_00 37:14

It was it was probably uh one of my favorite shotters ever to watch. Uh he was second to the American winner, but then as the year went, he just got better and better and better. Yes, yes, and and then John T uh time trialed him. He he broke the world record then, 51, if I'm not mistaken. Uh yeah, he was uh he was an armed on, too, didn't he? Didn't he have that attitude of an armed on darn out of a speedy simole mare?

SPEAKER_04 37:45

Should have been hot, but he wasn't. He was perfect mannered. Was he? Yeah, and he was 17,000 too.

SPEAKER_02 37:52

That's the sweet spot, I guess.

SPEAKER_04 37:54

Yeah, it was for me back then, yes.

SPEAKER_02 37:59

We're gonna go to the yearlings sale this year, and we're gonna go, we're gonna go watch everything that's sold for 7,000. We're gonna pay real 17,000, excuse me. We're gonna pay real good attention to them. It's fun. Well, I tell you what, there's just so so many, a lot of stories and a lot of fun, fun things to say. Do you have an experience that within harness racing that really touches your heart? Like one specific, either race or you know, Hall of Fame induction.

SPEAKER_04 38:34

Naturally, yeah, that was great. But naturally, the first time when Mac won the Hamble, that was special because you dream of that race, you know, and then end up winning it was really a moment for me.

SPEAKER_02 38:48

Was it a surprise to you? Because I don't think it was a surprise to others around you when you were inducted into the Hall of Fame.

SPEAKER_04 38:56

Yeah, I didn't even think about it until they called and and asked me. And I said, Well, you sure I guess I will, sure. I didn't even tell you the truth, I hardly didn't know what it was. You know, I knew guys that was in, I knew John was in, I knew Billy O'Donnell was in, and a few guys, and and I thought, Jesus, you know, it's quite a privilege, I guess. So I said gladly, yes.

SPEAKER_00 39:23

Yeah, that's yeah, that's awesome. So, Chuck, I'm gonna I'm gonna put this out there that uh growing up it was it was the Chuck Sylvester and the Ron Gerfine show, right? You know, I used to run to the mailbox to get the harness horse in the mail every Monday or whatever it was to look at the results, and um and I can tell you that uh I was really really pulling for you with Lucky Chucky. I wanted you to get number five, and just a fan of you, and when he just lost the Hamiltonian, I was it would it hurt, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 40:01

It did me too, and it was kind of my fault. We had shot him on early that week and then trained him on Wednesday, I guess, and he was blown pretty good, and the vet gave him some fluids after he trained, and he got a little bit of a reaction, so it wasn't a good week pulling up to the handball. Then after that, he was really good. But yes, uh, he he didn't have a good week going into the handbow.

SPEAKER_00 40:29

But he he put in a good fight coming through the wire.

SPEAKER_04 40:32

Uh oh, yes, and he got the biggest cheers because my past son had passed away the year before, so he got a big ovation when he pulled and got to the front.

SPEAKER_00 40:42

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:43

I'll never forget that it was an incredible, incredible race, and that was a very emotional race for of course you and many that loved you guys.

SPEAKER_04 40:56

Yeah, you're right.

SPEAKER_02 40:59

You have had a lot of drivers work for you over the past many, many years. Did you have? I mean, John, of course, is one of the is the greatest driver, but did you have some drivers that you really felt could just do things other drivers couldn't?

SPEAKER_04 41:16

Yeah, I always loved Billy O'Donnell, and I like Mike the chance, but Mike was tied up with Gerfein that I didn't get a chance to use him very often. He was very good, and then Cat Mansi, I used him a lot, he was very good at the time. So that was my four guys that I really would like to go to.

SPEAKER_00 41:34

Yeah, I think Cat was really underrated.

SPEAKER_04 41:37

Yes, he was. He had great hands, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 41:42

You're still very, very active with the stable of horses over the winters, and yeah, how many do you currently have now?

SPEAKER_04 41:51

Five. That's that's all, yeah. I'm not not too many.

SPEAKER_02 41:55

And do you send those horses up north to another trainer or when they're ready?

SPEAKER_04 42:01

Yeah, I won't go north. Uh I got four babies in there, four different tracks, so I'll send them to different people.

SPEAKER_02 42:10

When you're watching the races over the last, you know, I'd say five, six, seven years. Is there anybody drawn or pacing trainers? I know most of us have have uh most of them have both. Is there any young guns out there that are really surprising you and you really think are talented trainers?

SPEAKER_04 42:30

Not really. Uh, I like that kid from uh Poconos. Uh he does a great job now. Uh what's his uh who am I thinking of Kelly? Yeah, the young yeah, he you know, driver. He drove uh lefty righty all the time last year. Baxton Boyd, yeah, yeah, he's got upcoming good trainer, very good driver. I mean, yes.

SPEAKER_02 43:00

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 43:01

But these guys, you know, that are connected to the big stables, they're gonna win the majority of races because they're driving the best horses.

SPEAKER_02 43:08

Yeah, yeah, it's a numbers game, unfortunately.

SPEAKER_04 43:11

Oh, sure.

SPEAKER_02 43:12

Yeah, this is yeah, this it's it's it's a interesting, interesting um time. Things have changed a little bit in the land of stakes as Kentucky has become really a hot spot for for dual eligible horses and staking. Is there one specific sire and or staking program that you were very loyal to when you were purchasing a lot of yearlings?

SPEAKER_04 43:44

I like muscle hills because that horse I tried to buy bad. Uh I was the underbidder on him, and we just kind of run out of money at the time. But uh, you know, they're all, you know, any of those top sires now can produce. So uh you know I I don't I'm not fussy. I have a chapter seven, I have uh one tactical landing and and two Captain Coreys. So, you know, and they're they're nice. Yeah, that horse is a surprise, but a good sire.

SPEAKER_02 44:20

So there's a little mix of pacing blood that's kind of popped up recently in these trotters. What are your thoughts?

SPEAKER_04 44:30

Well, evidently uh it's not hurting them and they make speed, so everybody you'll see everybody start doing it now. Yeah, they'll they'll all keep doing it.

SPEAKER_00 44:41

Oh, sure. I mean, if you look back to Rex Scooterhead uh pace and blood and trot and blood. Yes, back then he produced some good ones.

SPEAKER_02 44:52

Yeah, you came from the days of the heyday of harness racing where the public naturally went to the track, they were very educated on the horses, and over the past few decades, we our industry has really fallen away from that. Gambling is done online, people have no connection to the horse anymore. If there was something that you could say to the young guns that are marketing and say, this is what we need to bring back or do, do you have any ideas of what we could do?

SPEAKER_04 45:29

Well, I uh this day and age, there's not not much you can do as far as that goes. I mean, they can't get the crowds because of the simulcasting. Everybody can watch the race from home and gamble from home. Don't have to be at the track. Back when I was racing in the Detroit area, uh, those gamblers uh they were in the track every night of the week, and they knew the horses. And I could look up and then didn't think I really had a good chance. But look, and if I was three to one, I knew they were betting on me and I had a chance to win. The gamblers told you when you were had the best horse, they just automatically knew.

SPEAKER_00 46:05

Yeah, and I I think it you know, if you're not born into it these days, uh the the days of people jumping the fence at Roosevelt and Brandywine are are gone.

SPEAKER_04 46:16

They're over, yes.

SPEAKER_02 46:18

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 46:19

So we've got to figure out a new way to educate and market and it's sounds like now no, with the internet the way it is now, it's it's probably never going to be the same.

SPEAKER_02 46:32

Yeah. Well, listen, before we wrap up, Ro, do you have any last quick questions before we wrap up?

SPEAKER_00 46:42

No, no quick questions, but uh Chuck, uh thanks for joining us. I mean, it's been you know, I've looked up to you for years, and uh all I can say is uh thank you for for joining us.

SPEAKER_04 46:53

Well, thank you for having me, believe me. It's enjoyable. Brings back old memories.

SPEAKER_02 46:59

Good. Chuck, by any chance, are you a coffee drinker?

SPEAKER_04 47:03

I drink coffee, sure.

SPEAKER_02 47:05

Okay, well, we are so, so fortunate that Cow Puncher Coffee has sponsored and partnered with us to run this podcast. We're very, very thankful for them. Um, if you don't mind, producer Brent, let's throw in the Cow Puncher commercial really quick, and then we'll come back to Chuck and have a quick wrap-up.

SPEAKER_01 47:28

Thank you to our great sponsor, Cow Puncher Coffee. For the day, it isn't just a cup, it's a kick in the saddle. Bold, smooth, and built for early mornings and long days. It fuels the kind of determination that gets work done. Rich flavor without the bitterness, strong enough for the arena, smooth enough for the porch. Find it at cowpunchercoffee.com.

SPEAKER_00 47:53

So, Chuck, I originally live in or originally from Pennsylvania, now live in Texas. Cowpuncher Coffee is from Texas. Oh, so we're gonna we're gonna send you some. Okay, very good.

SPEAKER_02 48:05

We'll send you some. Okay, before we let you go, we love asking just really simple, silly questions, just so people get to know all of us a little bit better. It's just called Quickfire. Don't think about it too hard, they're not that important. Are you okay with us doing this? Okay, your favorite movie.

SPEAKER_04 48:27

One of Tom Hanks when he was caught on an island, what the hell is it called by himself?

SPEAKER_02 48:33

Is it Castaway?

SPEAKER_04 48:35

Yes, I love that movie. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 48:38

Um, what what do you listen to in the car or in the barn? Do you like what is 60s?

SPEAKER_04 48:45

Mostly 60s, yes. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 48:50

Your favorite cocktail?

SPEAKER_04 48:54

Probably uh VO and uh Manhattan.

SPEAKER_02 48:59

Are you an early bird or a night owl?

SPEAKER_04 49:02

Um not no no nothing at night, no.

SPEAKER_02 49:05

I no who's your biggest cheerleader.

SPEAKER_04 49:11

My family, I guess. And Kelly.

SPEAKER_02 49:17

Well, we want to think a big shout-out. Thank you, Kelly, for all your help. Um, who is your toughest critic? Or maybe even was your toughest critic back then.

SPEAKER_04 49:27

Steve Jones, he's the worst. Yeah, he's criticizing me every day. He finds some race that I lost and sends me the video of it.

SPEAKER_02 49:40

Listen, this does not surprise me even on the IO. Jonesy, we're coming for you next. We'll start criticizing him. Uh, what is your biggest pet peeve?

SPEAKER_04 49:56

Shoot, I don't know. I don't have too many, really.

SPEAKER_02 50:00

In the bar is your oh, go ahead.

SPEAKER_03 50:03

Taking not taking temperatures and not picking up their feet to look for shoes.

SPEAKER_04 50:09

Take their temperatures every morning and check for shoes.

SPEAKER_02 50:12

I like it. What was your last impulse purchase?

SPEAKER_04 50:19

Uh the other the horse I bought last was a twenty thousand dollar uh Captain Corey that we bought from the stofus family, who I had uh what the hell's his name?

SPEAKER_03 50:31

Uh Doug Unlucky does yeah, Doug Unlucky.

SPEAKER_04 50:35

They had the first four of the mayor, and he's now the 13th. And uh, I really like that. I didn't get seams. I have Steve Elliott at the sale. He looked him up or looked at him and he bought him for me for 18,000. So I have high hopes on him. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 50:50

And he's a two-year-old this year.

SPEAKER_04 50:52

Yep, yeah, and training very good.

SPEAKER_02 50:55

What was his name again?

SPEAKER_04 50:56

It's now it's called uh Captain Chuck. Captain Chuck. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 51:02

I'm here for it. We're all gonna be heading to the track this year to watch for his two-year-old Captain Chuck's day.

SPEAKER_04 51:10

That's him, yes.

SPEAKER_02 51:11

Who's gonna who's gonna train him for you when he comes north?

SPEAKER_04 51:15

I'm not sure. I've got four different stallions, so I'm not sure where I'm standing. One's New York, one's Jersey, and two Pennsylvania.

SPEAKER_02 51:23

Okay. So name one famous person that you would like to meet.

SPEAKER_04 51:31

Oh, what's this? What's the singer name that I went and see? Carrie Underwood? Carrie Underwood.

SPEAKER_00 51:37

Oh yeah, I want to meet her too.

SPEAKER_04 51:41

She was I went and saw her live. She was great.

SPEAKER_02 51:44

Oh man, I love it. I love it. Well, check, thank you so much for your time. We really, really appreciate you.

SPEAKER_04 51:52

It's my pleasure.

SPEAKER_01 51:54

That was another episode of Under the Lights with Ashton Roy. Thank you to the sponsors and CowPuncher Coffee for this episode. Whether you're headed home from the arena or just getting your day started, we're glad you spent some time with us. Around here, it's all about the stories behind the grind. We want you to be part of the story too. So comment, connect, and follow right here on this platform. And don't miss a hook feed. Wherever life's got you arriving, stay tough, stay true. And we'll meet you right back here next time, under the light, with Ask and Roth.