Brett Pelling - Season 1 Episode 9

Brett Pelling is one of harness racing’s most respected and accomplished trainers, known for developing elite pacers, and producing champions on the sport’s biggest stages. Originally from New Zealand, Pelling built an incredible reputation in North America with a sharp eye for talent and a relentless commitment to excellence. Over the course of his career, he’s trained  5 Meadowlands Pace winners, 13 Breeders crown champions, multiple little brown jug victories, and has earned a reputation as one of the sport’s premier conditioners. After stepping away from U.S. racing for a period, Pelling returned and quickly reestablished himself among harness racing’s elite. Candid, fiercely competitive, and deeply respected by horsemen around the world, Brett brings decades of insight, unforgettable stories, and a masterclass in what it takes to stay at the top of the game.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:18

And the breakthrough that built to be iconic active rights into behind the scenes, under the lights, to hear what it really took to get there. If you live the Western lifestyle or disrespect the grind, this one for you. Kick that grab a gold one and enjoy the show.

SPEAKER_01 0:35

Hey everyone, my name is Ashley Pietrich. I'm one of your hosts with Under the Lights when I give away. And I am so excited here to have uh one of your hosts, of course, for a danger and joke, right?

SPEAKER_03 0:48

I'm I'm good and really looking forward to this one.

SPEAKER_01 0:52

This one, this is a special podcast. Um, I'd love to introduce you guys all to one of the most accomplished harness work trainers, really ever to walk this earth. Uh Brett Pelling. Thank you so much for joining us today.

SPEAKER_05 1:08

Yeah, you're very welcome. Um and uh hope uh this all goes nice and smooth and uh let's enjoy the art.

SPEAKER_01 1:14

Yeah. Typically, the fat my favorite part about podcasting with Roy is that uh we're pretty laid back. Um it's a little different, I think, when we've got some of the most elite horsemen because I don't know about you, Roy, but I'm a little nervous because I just get so excited about we're gonna mention some of the most insane horses. We hope that you can kind of fill us in with the real behind-the-scenes stories. Um, before we get into that, I'd love to tell the public a little bit about you. Born in New Zealand, um your true your your incredible talent and horsemanship for the many, many decades, has just built some of the most fast, consistent, amazing pacers, and a few, quite a few great trotters in there. Five Meadowlands paces, 13 breeders a crown multiple, little brown jugs. Your reputation speaks for itself. Um, you could give us all a masterclass in horsemanship, but before we get deep into the horses, I'd love to hear about who Bray Helling was as a child and talk us a little bit about growing up.

SPEAKER_05 2:30

Well, you know, one thing in this business, I mean, one thing I've found over the years, I mean, generally most people were born into it, raised into it, and it's uh their career is mapped out pretty early. Um, with me, it wasn't. I mean, I I was brought up in the south of New Zealand, and uh I was brought up by my grandparents, and um, you know, my first thing with racing was really, you know, going to the races. It was sort of like a culture in New Zealand, rugby racing and beer, and that's how it was. And I wasn't around the stables at all, but we went to the racetrack. And um, I think we were kids running around picking up tickets, thinking that eventually we'll get one that someone threw away because they had too much beer. But um, that was kind of my uh initiation with racing, and um, you know, it was a very simple childhood, it was a great childhood, um, you know, no crime, lots of freedom. Um the town I lived in was a town of uh 2200 people, and it actually became um famous for being the home of Cardigan Bay. Wow, and when I was a very, very young child, I mean Cardigan Bay was already racing in America, and you know, my grandfather, I mean, he was uh he was basically a 50 cent doubles better, and I remember sitting there, and we only had radios back then, and I think TV came on at two o'clock and finished at six o'clock, and there was one channel. I mean, that's that's where we lived. And um, I remember sitting next to the radio with him, and we'd be listening to races from America, Cartingham Bay, and some of the horses he raced against and everything, and it kind of stuck with me. And um, and Cartingham Bay himself, he came back, and he came back to Matara when he was retired, and that was one of the conditions of him going to Stanley was that he did come back, and um pretty much the whole town uh turned out, and um I don't know how prepped he was, whatever, but I I remember him uh doing a lap of a three-furlong cinder track, and I remember him breaking 45 seconds, and the whole crowd went crazy, and uh it was it was a it was great, it was pretty awesome. And and and I I was very young, and you know, from then I mean I I finished school and um you know I uh my mother had married uh Brian Pelling, and Brian's an interesting character on his own because you know he was a New Zealander who went to Australia and and he was becoming uh quite successful quite quickly. And uh one of his things was really coming back to New Zealand and buying horses. And um sometimes you know my natural mother would be with him and they'd stop in and visit. And um, you know, it was I I just you get that vibe and that feeling, and I think uh, you know, from the day I was uh I was really able to, um, I jumped on a plane and went to Australia and went to them.

SPEAKER_01 5:33

Was there a specific moment in New Zealand or possibly in Australia when you realized this is what you want to do in the future? What I love.

SPEAKER_05 5:46

Um I think it was in New Zealand when I finished school. I remember there was a uh, you know, the the family that I grew up with and everything, their their job was actually um in the wool industries and uh a lot of uh you know, sharing sheep and managing um you know wool sales and all different things for export and all of that. And when I finished school, um I actually applied for a job at this uh company called Wrightsons, and it was um would have been a great job. And um they told me in the end there was 42 applicants, it was narrowed down to two, and uh I missed out. So that was when I went and jumped on the plane. So very easily, if I had taken that job, um I never would have come here. And that's pretty much what happened. So then I decided uh there was really not a lot for me. And Australia was always um, you know, for a New Zealander, especially in the south of New Zealand, Australia um New Zealanders are very no, I don't know, nomadic people, but they're great travelers. And um it was always the thing to get out and have a look, and invariably I think a lot of them end up going back. But um, for me, it was just a progression after leaving.

SPEAKER_03 7:02

Yeah. Uh when you said you used to sit by the radio to listen to the the races over over here. Yeah. Well, I mean, what what went through your mind? Was it like, man, I just want to go there one day, or I mean uh no, not at all.

SPEAKER_05 7:19

I mean, America is a far off place from where I lived. I mean, we're we're talking about the south of New Zealand, right? And um I I think the accents in that really intrigued me. I mean, I remember uh there was one horse in particular, his name was uh Nicarampus Leroy, and the way that the race caller announced it, it I think it took him five seconds to announce this one word, and uh always some things just stuck in my mind that I thought that was you know pretty fascinating. And um, but no, there was never any um, you know, going to America, um, America was a far-off place. I mean, I'm a little boy, wet behind the ears in New Zealand, I'd been nowhere, seen nothing, and America was you know a pretty scary situation. Yeah, and then you know, we went to Australia and um I I stayed with my uh uh you know my mother and you know to be my stepfather, and um he was already kind of making the move of importing horses to uh America. So pretty much from the time I arrived, he was actually gone. And um, you know, he you know, he had a little bit of uh bit of a problem where um he didn't get to come back to Australia, and um I was kind of left there with my mother and running the farm and everything, and um we rented out the stables, and I went and worked for a couple of guys uh who rented the stables, and that that was really my true initiation to taking care of horses, being around horses and driving horses and the whole thing. Um and and it kind of went from there. I think we did that for a couple of years, and then um we sold the property, and uh one of the connections that was made uh with Brian Pelling doing his thing um in America was the transport of the horses, and he developed the great friendship with a guy called George Aiken, who had a company called Parrametal Livestock, and Paramountal Livestock was the primary uh shipper of horses. And um he had a son the same age as me, and we become good mates and everything. And uh, long story short, I I got a job uh working on the cargo plants, and um you know, once again, fascinating situation for a person who from where I came from. So here I am sitting up in the cockpit of a Pan Am 747, flying around the world with you know, 20 horses and a couple of crates of eels and an engine and all kinds of stuff. And you know, we would drop down in places like Tahiti and we'd be in San Francisco, we'd be in Miami, and and you know, I was working, I was working for them, but um, I I'm glad I got to do that because I got to get in, experience things, and leave. Yeah, it wasn't too daunting knowing that I was gonna be back. But you know, after a couple of years of doing that, um I we ended up in the Cal Palace uh detention um where they did the quarantine and everything in San Francisco, and um, you know, Brian Pallang, he he was quite established then, and um he had actually remarried. Um and you know, he was uh doing the California circuit, which was either San Francisco or Las Alamidas, Hollywood Park. And um, I just decided uh, you know what, um, let's go and give this a shot. And uh I went and I went to him and started off as a groom and he set me up in a tech room and uh basically said you're on your own and let's see what happens.

SPEAKER_01 11:00

Wow. When you were in California, you moved to California, you had become very good friends and and partnership almost with Ross Crogan. Was that relationship built prior to your move to America?

SPEAKER_05 11:18

Uh yeah, and you know, Ross was awesome. I mean, Ross was sort of like um not so much of a father figure, but he was there before us, and and there was a little network of of guys, and we you know, we hung out together, and you know, the bottom line is um sometimes we didn't have money. And you know, it was kind of like you know, we'd go to lunch and Ross would pick up the tab. And um, but you know, it was innocent in back then, it was okay. We were just hanging out, and we're really looking for something to bet on, and you know, do some paddocks and live. And um, it was it was fun. You were young, um, you're from down under, you still had some new friends from down under there, and and you got all the experiences of being um in Los Angeles, and uh that you know that was just awesome in itself, and uh the experiences of being in uh Sacramento, that was great in San Francisco. Um, but these were all things like for me, um, you know, I I don't know if I could have just gone straight from where I came from in New Zealand straight to America. I don't know if I really could have handled it, it was so different. And um, I think going to Aussie for a couple of years, Australia I mean, for a couple of years, and uh and then going on to America and having um you know friends there in the same position, and uh you know that kind of helped everything. And um, you know, in the end, you you get it. Um there was a great movie actually. Um uh it was uh the movie of um the the guy uh he went down to Nicaragua and which is a southern city in New Zealand and uh racing motorbikes. And uh I I remember watching this movie and thinking to myself, wow, you know, that that's like me. I mean, that's that story. The guy down there in that part of the world, all the way to America, and how he interacted with um, you know, I'd never seen a colored person before, or um I'd never ordered food in a restaurant before, I'd never been to a restaurant, and now I'm in a restaurant, and this lady's saying to me, How do I want my eggs? I'm like, what are you talking about? You know, you just bring me eggs, and and just all sort of stuff like that. And trust me, it's different. And and way back then it was way different.

SPEAKER_03 13:41

Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. You said about transporting horses, uh, and I know Cardigan Bay was here, and and there's been others, but the first uh I I think she was I think it was a Kiwi horse, uh, that I can remember clearly. Uh and you'll probably remember Tupelo Rhodes. Yeah, yeah. And then then, you know, it just there was an influx, Sharten, Lazarus. I mean, it goes on and on, but that that's the first one that that I can remember.

SPEAKER_05 14:12

Yeah. No, and and you know, transporting horses, um, like you know, we're talking back in like 1975.

SPEAKER_02 14:19

Right.

SPEAKER_05 14:20

Um, back then we were um we were transporting them in open pellets with um you know five ply board in between them.

SPEAKER_01 14:30

That's it.

SPEAKER_05 14:31

It was it was the Wild West. And you know, they had a head rope on. And um, I I'm actually uh have a great sort of experience, well not a great experience, but you know, we did a trip between um Melbourne and Auckland to head to America, and uh one of the horses actually um just panicked and broke out. So we're flying across the Tasman Sea between Australia and New Zealand, and we're you know, we're at 35,000 feet, and we had to drop down to 4,000 feet, and um, you know, you might not want to hear this, but there's a 38-caliber pistol, and I had to go back there and and you know, and basically be 20 eyes. And um, you know, and even back then, I mean, I remember that being a big drama because uh New Zealand had a curfew back then where you couldn't fly after midnight. So, you know, we land in New Zealand, and here we have this uh this horse that um you know had to be taken off and he passed away and everything, and you know, here we are caught on the tarmac of the airport till six o'clock in the morning until the curfew lifted. So there was a lot of um you know, pretty, pretty wild situations, which um you know now they're actually transported in um you know self-contained crates, it's a lot safer, it's a lot better. Um, but you know, that's uh back in the day it was different.

SPEAKER_01 15:57

It was legitimately the wild, wild one. Yeah, yeah. So going back to the years in California, your partnership and working for Ross Krogan, that did you have did you did did did the Brett Pelling of those days dream about, you know, premierships and driver and excuse me, trainer championships in some of the greatest pacers in the world? Or were you content just chipping away at what you the stable you had?

SPEAKER_05 16:31

Well, what kind of happened was, you know, I I was working for uh for Brian Pelling and um you know he decided to go to Chicago. So I I went out to Chicago and we were there for um you know quite a few years. And uh there was an ownership change in California. Um new management Lloyd Arnold had owned um Los Alamitas and he had he had basically uh you know turned it over and California run uh a really, really great winter meet. And um my uh my stepfather there, he decided that we're gonna turn around and uh we would take some of the horses from Chicago and go back and and race in some of these features and he would just fly in for the weekend. And um, you know, I I got that assignment, which was great. And um, so you know, I went back to California and um basically had the horses and um you know I think it was probably eight or ten weeks, and and I think at the end of that eight or two ten weeks we did, you know, pretty well. And I you know, I had a decision to make, you know, did I go back to Illinois or did I stay in California? And I pretty much decided to stay in California, and uh I thought, you know what, um I picked up a couple of horses to train and uh made a couple of young horses, and I think I was down the end of um Ross's barn, and um I just kind of started from that and uh you know kind of plugged away. And I think you know, maybe um when things weren't going that good, I mean I would ride and work for Ross, and and pretty much what happened, what changed everything was um there was uh problems in California where they didn't have a circuit year-round. They'd had a year-round circuit for many, many years, and so now there was a situation, okay, what are we going to do for four or five months? And um I don't think uh it was that lucrative to carry for that period of time. So um we decided we're going to um put a couple of semi-truckloads uh together and off we went to to Florida, to Pompano. And um, you gotta remember then the Meadowlands was up and running, but it was still like, whoa, you know, we're not going to Meadowlands. I mean, how could we possibly do any good at Medalands? So we had to sort of go somewhere else. So um we went to Florida, and um, I remember the first year we arrived with um, you know, 26, 27 horses, and we raced them and did, you know, did really well. And uh they were all sold, and we went back and um had the opportunity to do it again before I think California really got in trouble. And uh this time we went back and uh remember there were 28 of them and we sold all but two. And luckily one of them was actually owned in partnership by Ross, her name was Kiwi River End. And um Ross basically just said to me, I said, you know what? Um I was kind of running everything in Florida doing the whole thing, and he was back and forth. He still Ross was very much a California guy. He had the house in California, his life was in California, and as much as being out on the road and working was good, home is home, and that was where his home was. And then he just basically turned around to me and said, Um, you know, you're you're doing great. Um, why don't you take these two horses and go to Middle Ends? And uh we're like, yeah, uh, okay, um, and let's let's go. And I think I arrived in New Jersey with uh a jog cart, a couple of harnesses, and uh two horses, and um we went to a farm in uh over in Coltsnak and um started racing. Good that they were ready to go, they were in the box, I think, three days after we got there, but um off we went. And Kiwi River was awesome. She was one of those horses who she just fit a class where she was able to dominate uh with an optional claim, which seemed a crazy amount of money for anyone to claim her. And so I got to keep her, and uh and the and probably one of the big things was you know, California not doing well. Um, we probably spent more time going to JFK Airport, you know, pretty much every Sunday night, picking up a load of horses that have blown in from California. And one of the big things was um I think the California horses, their value, they were they were really undervalued because the racing there was was extremely tough because everyone was so hungry. And um, luckily Joe Anderson at the time was the leading trainer there, and I think uh Ross Grogan, he was very close. And um they were still like I don't think Joe wanted to leave California either, and um, you know, we we were already doing okay, and um, so it was kind of like, you know, all right, we've got a guy here at the Meadowlands, which no one really ever had before. Um, and so I I was so fortunate. Um, and I've said to people, I started off with two horses. I think I probably had in the first year 20 horses claimed from me, and at the end of the first year, I had 30 horses. I mean, that just never happened. To a person starting off. So if someone said to me, What's the key to success? I mean, it was really that. It was, you know, being a successful horse trainer is all about um having the clients and having the horses. And I and I was young, I didn't even know really. Uh we were just working. And um, so you know, going to JFK and picking up three or six fresh ones every Sunday was pretty awesome.

SPEAKER_02 22:28

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 22:29

So I'm I I'm curious when when you took those two horses there, and then as you increased, did you have a regular like catch driver then? Do you remember who it was?

SPEAKER_05 22:41

Um, no, but I remember Hervey drove for us. Um, and then um Jack Mosaic at the time was very young, you know. Jack's um a couple of years younger than me, and um he was kicking off. And you know, we we had some New Zealand horses that were um some of them were were rogues, you know, they put a few steps in and do this or do that, and um, you know, I just give Jack the lines saying, mate, you're good here. You're you know, you're not gonna get in trouble, just push forward. And um Jack was pretty fearless, and man, off we went. And um, you know, Jack Mosaic ended up being my key guy for a long time. You know, we did really well. It was great.

unknown 23:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:20

Speaking of your ownership groups, you have masterfully maintained a very eclectic group of owners over the years. That is not an easy task, and a lot of times big stables really put their eggs in one basket and things don't always pan out. And you've you've really handled this in amazingly. Can you talk us through a little bit about that mindset of how you maintain the owners?

SPEAKER_05 23:53

Um, well, you're not allowed to call me before noon. That's the first thing.

SPEAKER_02 23:58

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 24:00

And you know, if I'm calling you, it's it's usually not going to be um a call that you really want. Um, so we we have a lot of trust in a relationship where you know that I think my owners really understand, I take it to heart. And, you know, if I'm I'm absolutely doing managing their um, you know, their horses, their their money, um, everything as as best I can. And um, you know, I I found that um over the years, I mean, I think when we were uh when I was here the first time, the first go-around, um I always I I got quite lucky where I'd have a major owner. And um having a guy like for me, my first true major owner was probably uh Bob Glazer, Peter Pan Stables. And um, you know, he he he came in and he was uh he had his own agenda, how he liked to do things, and there was a lot of things that he did that I really agreed with where you know he wanted to find his own horses. Um he liked to deal with the race officers, he liked to do entries, and and one of the things back then was you know, we didn't have electronic entry, it was all quite a bit different, and um, you know, and I've said one of the big problems you had as a trainer was you you had a window usually between eight and nine o'clock in the morning to get on the phone and make your entries, and you know, it was it was a nightmare. And um, I had uh Bob Glazer, Peter Pan, that he took it upon himself that that was his job. So not only was he taking care of his 20, but my other 40. And you know, when I look back now, little things like that were an absolute godsand, it just let me do my work, it let me just train the horses, and you know, so these they were um punches, let's ships, and I like to think um all the way forward to now, um, you know, my owners are pretty much my friends, and um, you know, we can talk about things outside of racing, and uh uh, you know, it you gotta enjoy it, and uh it's it's not life and death, and um, you know, everyone knows you they're doing their best, and um, you know, just be ready that uh, you know, sometimes um there's bad news, but enjoy the good times.

SPEAKER_01 26:22

It's amazing, yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_03 26:25

And you've had uh probably the biggest owners in the sport, right? I mean, from perfect world to Bob Blazer to Jeffrey Snyder. I mean, the list is unreal.

SPEAKER_05 26:40

Deep. Yeah, those guys, um, I trained for Brittany for a while, which was um, you know, that those guys were awesome. Um but you know, they're uh, you know, they're all pretty strong people, you know, they're strong opinions. Um, you know, David, David Brooks was uh, you know, he is a one-off. I mean, there's only you know, you can talk about Donald Trump being a one-off. David Brooks was a one-off. And you know, just a very, very um unique character. And uh, but you know, I got along with him. I I I was I was good with him. And you know, he he loved uh he he loved the relationship. He loved to talk about what happened on the racetrack, and and he really identified the horses as being himself. And you know, if it was a big race and it went really well, then he's almost the one saying, Did you see me? Did you see how good I was? He he could get really caught up on it. And uh, I I I I didn't mind David at all. I mean, he wasn't everyone's cup of tea, but um he was an interesting character.

SPEAKER_01 27:44

He's a character, a character is right.

SPEAKER_05 27:48

I mean, each time you show up with a little round job and it's 95 degrees and you got a black leather coat on, you're uh you're gonna do a little different.

SPEAKER_01 27:57

That's a special he was he was different. I'm excited to talk about some of like the you know incredibly talented and prolific horses, but was were there horses within your stable in the past, or is there a standout where a horse just didn't get a shot to be a great horse, but you thought they were a great horse?

SPEAKER_05 28:22

Um, you know, there was there was probably lots of them. I mean, we've we've had um, you know, there's been disappointments along the way, and I'm like most trainers where you know when we train these yellings down and everything, and you know, you'll be training them in March, and it's like, wow, I mean, you know, I've I've just never felt one like this before. And um doesn't quite pan out. And uh, you know, I have a lot of conversations um with my friends in that actually. Um, you know, we we have some interesting talks about how um you know these stallions that we have now, a lot of them are dual hemisphere. And um, so you know, still being uh a New Zealander and still having you know good friends down there and that, and you know, you're following the industry and in really two continents. And you know, there'll be situations where um like better select, better slight is the classic example. I mean, he's he served um so many mayors down under and had so many great, great champions. And uh on on the cult side, the Philly side, everywhere, he you know, his what he left and and what he did there far superseded what he did here. And so you sort of say to yourself, you know, why? And I think with a lot of these um stallions, the way that racing is set up here in America, that you know, it's the system, and it's a system that's been around for a long time. And um, you know, maybe whoever implemented the system in the very beginning, did they get it right? I I'm not 100% sure. But I know um down under, I mean, they have a um a way of training where, and I don't think it's even changed now, where you know, you're six weeks in, six weeks out, six weeks in, six weeks out.

SPEAKER_02 30:08

Right.

SPEAKER_05 30:09

You know, there's parameters that have to be met before you go on for the next six-week period. And um whereas here, you know, we'll bring them in in uh November, and the first year of their life training is the longest year of their life. I mean, there they go from November to November. And because of the staking, um, because of the needing to know, um, because of the the way the races are laid out um from beginning to end, you know, there's massive amount of pressure on them, just a massive amount to keep going forward. And uh as much as we try and sort of baby them, but you know, when people talk about you know babying their horses or giving them a nice um slower prep, whatever, you know, it's a difference of two or three weeks. That's really all it is, because you still have to be ready at X amount of time, and uh, even with the um uh the Kentucky situation, you know, that's been great because that's actually brought us really um an extra three or four weeks, but that's all it's bought us, and it's still horses, even if they're not quite good enough, um, they're still training with the ones that you think is great, right? And the ones and the ones that are great, they still have to survive training, going through, you know, they're basically in the winter where it can be zero, and you know, within a two-month period sometimes, now it's a hundred degrees. Yeah, and so it's it's incredibly difficult for them. So, you know, when you have a great horse, um you truly appreciate it because they've overcome so much. And I I mean when you talk about ones, uh great ones that didn't make it. Um, if I went back through my books, um, that's a long list.

SPEAKER_02 31:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 31:56

That should have been, should have, should have done more. Um, but then you know, there's also other ones where uh I remember uh test of faith. I mean, that's that's quite recent. And I remember you know, we were chaining her down, and she was lovely, she was perfect, but she didn't stand out. And we thought we had a couple of fillies that were um standouts, and here she is, you know, absolutely dominant horse of the year, um fabulous horse. And um, you know, did we know we liked her, but we just thought we had other ones that were better. So um, you want to hear about those ones? You know, that's the way it goes.

SPEAKER_01 32:36

Yeah, I think that's pretty, I think that's that's it sums up the horse business, I think, in in all of our hearts. Speaking of horses that did do incredible things, the Panderosa was extremely influential across the board. Did you receive him as a yearling to break, or when did he come into your stable?

SPEAKER_05 32:57

Um, everyone saw him as a yearling, and uh he he was basically judged by anyone before any of the sales that this was the best looking yearling. Some people say he was the best yearling um ever seen. Okay, he was absolutely perfect, gorgeous. And you know, Western Hanover could um relieve a pretty horse, and um he was uh you know, he he was a fantastic looking animal. I mean, he he bought 250,000 as a yearling, and uh that was um that's probably 600 for a pacing court these days, right? And uh, you know, he was the number one pacing court that year, and you know, he was um you know he he was nice, he was a real um precocious horse. I mean, you couldn't trust him if you stood by a store, you could stand there four or five times, but it's the sixth time he'd grab you, and he just had that nature about him where um you know this is my place and you're in my world, I'm gonna do it my way. And um, but he he was very good gated, great speed. I mean, his run in the Metal Lands pace uh when he had the tan hole and basically parked the entire mile um back then that that was a massive, massive effort.

SPEAKER_01 34:13

That that was 1999, correct?

SPEAKER_05 34:15

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:16

And producer Brett, if you're uh ready for us, we wanna if you could pull up that race. I'd love to talk about it with Brett. We'll we'll we'll pull that up right now as we're chatting. Um what did that horse wear bridle-wise, Brett?

SPEAKER_05 34:33

Um, he probably wore more than than what he would now if I trained him, but um he was he was a very simple horse. He he didn't wear any boots or anything. Um, he would have had an overcheck on. I think he had uh uh an open bridle, if I remember right, but he was a very, very good gated horse. And um, you know, I think he had more uh speed than toughness. Okay and um you gotta you kind of gotta decide which which one are you? Are you a fast horse or you're a strong horse? And um, you know, you'll see him here, that's him on the outside, and I think he he drops in for a few steps and and then he's kind of sort of back out again. But um, you know, John loved him. You know, he was um like I say, he was very, very intelligent. And but this night, you know, he showed uh you know real toughness, and um, yeah, here he is back on the outside again. And uh, you know, that was a very difficult thing to do back then. I mean, there used to be a lot, I think, more movement in the races.

SPEAKER_02 35:34

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_05 35:35

And um, you know, horses just living on the outside um was very difficult. That's him riding up there first over. And um, you know, John's just kind of sitting on him. I don't know how confident he he actually felt, but I know John wasn't happy when he drew 10, but he kind of said, well, you know, it's a starting, so off we go. And um, but you know, it's um horses are already pulling three wide on him here.

SPEAKER_01 36:04

And yeah, right at the half.

SPEAKER_05 36:05

Yeah, I know for me watching the race, I mean, there's no way I would have felt any confidence at all right now because he's he's just basically done plenty of work.

SPEAKER_01 36:14

Yeah, used hard all the way through the half.

SPEAKER_05 36:18

Yeah, and now um, you know, John starts working on him a little bit. I I think he uh I think he sort of giving one. I don't know if he actually even really cracked him. He's one over the back there, but um, you know, he just powered on. And uh that was that was a pretty decisive victory.

SPEAKER_01 36:35

Wow, he's incredible.

SPEAKER_05 36:37

I actually still have that whip, that's the one memento. So that's Johnson signed it and gave it to me, and it's actually that whip's been uh down to Australia.

SPEAKER_03 36:51

So a little uh something funny here is uh Beckett when he was a yearling at Hanover, uh my brother and I worked for Hanover Shoe Farms Prepping Yearlings, and he was the talk of the whole yeah, he was the talk of the town. His name was actually Deadeye Hanover, correct. Yeah, because he was a Daisy Harbor, right? And um uh yeah, and I remember that 250,000, and uh everyone that came there wanted wanted to see yeah, the Panderosa.

SPEAKER_05 37:20

Yeah, and that was a good little lesson that I learned actually from the Panderosa, which I sort of it's has stayed with me ever since because I've got I remember looking at him and and uh and then actually going to the sale and um you know how his name was Deadeye Hanover? He he was Deadeye, he he was tired, and I think every man his dog had pulled him out of store, had a look at him, and um, you know, he he was he was tired, and um fortunately um you know people still bid on him, he went for that number, but the effect that that had on me was years later, actually, with rock and roll Hanover. I'd been to Hanover Shoe Farms and I saw Rock'n'Rolly Hanover, and and and I was in awe of him. I absolutely in awe, and I said, I'm going to buy this horse. And uh sort of when went to the sale, and people were bringing him out of the store. He was quite a bigger horse, he was quite bigger and stronger and heavier, and um he was absolutely close. I mean, he was knackered, he was tripping over himself going in and out of the store because everyone had bought him in and out. You know, he was rock and roll Hanover, uh, he was in the front row, everyone, you know, everyone was bringing him in and in and out. So when he went through the sales ring, um, I I thought, geez, you know, I'm gonna have to pay plenty. But they everyone was off him because they thought, you know, he was he was a deadhead, he was exhausted. And we ended up buying him, I think, for 185,000, which um we'd went there uh, you know, thinking he was gonna be 400, something ridiculous.

SPEAKER_02 38:56

That's right.

SPEAKER_05 38:57

Basically his pedigree out of rich and elegant, um, by Western ideal, just an absolute beast. Um, but you know, that was the little lesson I learned from the Panderosa was sometimes those high-profile horses at the sale, they just turn around and you know, I'm tired, so leave me alone.

SPEAKER_03 39:15

I've had enough. Yeah, yeah. And I've I've never heard anyone actually say that, you know what I mean? But it makes a lot of sense, and and yeah, this uh I learned something.

SPEAKER_01 39:26

Yeah, it makes sense.

SPEAKER_05 39:27

Yeah, no, it's and you know, that that's why I think it pays sometimes, I think, especially with the ones that are um, you know, that you're gonna pay for. You need to see them at the farms before you see them at sales and be around them, get to know them a little bit, and just kind of, you know, I I bought rock and roll simply from how it's wrong before, not my how I was seeing with sales.

SPEAKER_01 39:48

When Brett, one of the things that Roy and I feel is very important to why we're doing this podcast and in giving people a chance to tell their story is one specifically is we have a very difficult time with the commissions in our testing ruling and public perception, because we feel like a lot of times our public perceives things to be so extremely ignorant or or negative to the horse. When we horsemen, we know we're our care is exceptional, we're just preaching to ourselves and we're too busy to tell people. I hate to bring a sore subject up, but you went through a lot with the Panderosa. And one of the conversations Roy and I have had is educating the public in regards to testing and positives. Do you mind talking us a little bit through what you went through with him?

SPEAKER_05 40:44

No, well, you know, the situation with the Panderosa was, I mean, he had already had a um uh a great two-year-old year. I think he was second in the governor's cup, and and he he was kind of um still on everyone's radar. He he was the the three-year-old coming back. I think when they're doing the Stan Bergstein breedings back then, I mean, he was number one. And um, you know, no matter what, I I I can't remember exactly what his record was at two, but it his record was good without being dominant. And um, but he was in all the best races and he was out there for everyone to see. So now when he comes back at three, and I think I had a little bit of a reputation even then, as um I I protect him at two, and I know that three is the year. And uh, if I have one that I really believe will be a top-rated three-year-old, I'm gonna do everything I can uh to preserve that and make that happen. And with the Panderosa, um, you know, he he came back at three, number one rated, and um, you know, we'd qualified him a couple of times, and he was having his first race out of the meadows in the uh PA SR stakes, and I think it was always around the first week of May. And um, so you know, the it was nothing to it. He was going out there, and um, you know, one of the situations with these horses when we go from track to track, some things are out of our control. Yeah, and uh you arrive at the racetrack, and the guy at the at the gate there, he's well, okay, you go to the shipping barn, or you go to such and such as barn, burn, you know, store 13, whatever. And as much as we try and do everything we can to make sure everything is 100% clean and tidy, uh, we don't know if we arrived there that night, we don't know what was going on there that morning. And um, you know, we'll you you know, I'd like to say we like disinfect and do this and that. I probably went through a period of doing that, but but generally you don't. And we might take a clean bag of shavings and everything with us to make sure that goes down in case nothing's supplied. Um, but the bottom line is we are um at at the mercy of where we're housed. And the Panderoso, I mean, he went out there and raced. I mean it was his first start of the year, I think it was like a short six-horse field. Um, he was um you know, one to ten favorite. Um, I don't know if even John drove him, I think it might have been Dave Pologne even drove him, and he just strode to the front, cruised around the track, and went by seven or eight lengths. And um, you know, so anyway, that was all well and good. And um, you know, we carried on uh with their season. And um, you know, it was probably uh, I think a good four, five, six weeks later, I get a phone call. And um, you know, I get a phone call in the barn and everything. Phone rings and I answer the phone, and the guy said, uh, you know, uh, you have a positive to morphine with the Panderosa. And I started laughing at it. I said, mate, just stop. You know, I just I actually thought they were just pulling my leg. And And um my veterinarian Steve Dyer was actually there at the time, and uh and I hung up the phone. I walked out. I said, dude, I said, someone's in there trying to tell me I got a positive standard roasted. The phone rings back again. So now um, okay, so I said, Well, who's there? So now we do the whole introduction and everything, and they said, No, you have a positive. I'm like, Wow, okay, you know, and morphine, morphine's that's a powerful word, yeah. And uh, you know, and I'm like, straight away, I'm thinking to myself, what is morphine? What what form does morphine come? I mean, is that something you inject is a pull form? Is it what what is morphine? I had no I have no idea what morphine even really is. And I mean, you've watched enough um movies for back in the army where you know someone was at the end and bang, they're hitting them in uh in the leg or something, and so I mean that's about the only morphine I kind of know. And um so so then we're all right, um, this has happened, so now we've got a herring. So, all right, so now we have to go out to the meadows for a herring, you know, this is real, it has to happen within a period of time. So, um, you know, and and they suspended me uh immediately, which um kind of blew me away because they normally just don't do that. I was suspended. And one of the things that happened in that situation was uh I wasn't the only one. Apparently, uh within a four or five day period, they had nine of them, and eight of them were local guys and me. So I go out to the hearing, and I I had found all this out, or people were actually calling me. I mean, there's people out there, um, good people, who they let me know, hey, this is what's happened, this is what's going on, this is what we think. So now they're talking about maybe it's the stirristics for the uh they're made out of wood, or you know, or there's um you know something environmental, cocaine derivative, or you know, it's just something. And um, so I I'm kind of and and I already know that a couple of these guys had gone out to the hearing and they were given a time served penalty because they knew something was wrong. So I, you know, myself, just to be cautious, I mean, I actually uh hired an attorney out there and I thought, well, you know, one thing I learned when you have a hearing, take an attorney with you. And um, so anyway, I walk in there with an attorney and everything, and in the space of about 30 seconds, they said to me, Oh, we're giving you a nine-month suspension. I'm like, Well, I said, Well, what uh what's happening? They said, Well, you know, this horse come up with a positive dimorphine. So then I turned around, now we're backtracking a little bit. I said, Well, you know, we can have a split sample. What is the reading? Um, we're asking these questions. So we had the split sample and everything done, and the reading came back where uh the horse was less than four nanograms. They couldn't even say if it was one, two, or three. They just said less than four. And a nanogram is a part per billion. So I'm like, well, you know, and I remember I'm I'm relatively young, and um, you know, I'm rolling at the Meadowlands, we're operating a 60, 70 horse stable, and um, and I always remember a couple of guys said to me, Well, you know what they think out here at the meadows, and I'm like, What? Well, New Jersey can't get you, but we got you. And I that always, you know, the good amount of people that said that to me, I'm like, Wow, are you serious? And that's I was in my own bubble. We were just racing. I I was kind of I blocked all that stuff out because uh I just knew that we had a turnover of horses, we were racing, we had horses coming in from California still, we're putting them where they could win, and we we were just young guys rolling, and um, you know, that whole outside chatter and everything I learned later on in life um is there uh when you're young, you kind of you know you you do your work, and so what happened was um, you know, we did the split sample, came back less than uh four nanograms again, and um so now we go back into another herring, and um we basically come in with some uh uh crazy facts. And one of the crazy facts was um if you fed a horse a box of Nabisco animal crackers, he's gonna come up with a reading of over a thousand nanograms. If you're the president of the United States of America, you are actually tested, and the president of the United States of America is allowed to have 1,995 nanograms of amorphine derivative in the system. So it was all this crazy stuff. So, you know, and and and the guys are looking at us like, you know, and they gave me nine months. So, you know, we appealed it and everything, and in the end, it ended up being uh reduced to like 20 days. But I I I just thought that was so wrong because you know, obviously, what had happened with that horse, he had gone to the meadows, he'd gone into a store, and it's quite personally uh it's quite possible that someone had urinated in the store who had maybe they had tried cocaine for the first time in their life or multiple times, whatever, or or maybe uh I was even told that if someone had a had a poppy seed bagel and the poppy seeds were in the store and that horse inhaled a snip or whatever, that's enough for less than four nanograms. And uh, but you know, they don't want to hear it. I mean, and that's the bottom line. And and one of the really, really crazy things was um we actually approached uh New Jersey, which was off the record. You know, it was so many years ago now. I don't know if their conversation was even anyone would still be aware of it. But off the record, New Jersey said to me, we would not have called you a positive unless you were over 75 nanograms. So I'm thinking to myself, man, you know, how wild is this? I mean, here's the guys in who are in PA, they get time served because they were suspended for like seven or eight days before the 10 before the 10 days were up, and the hearing was, and yet here I am from out of state, where in my state it's not even classified as positive, but I'm given 90 days, which is a complete railroad situation, which you know, and like these days now when I see people that come up with these positives, and and these some of them you just know that they're not real, they're obviously contamination positives. Um, but you know, this trainer responsibility rule that's been around forever, um, you're on your own. Yeah, one thing I did learn from that, I'm on my own. I didn't have anyone coming and say, hey, listen, we're gonna change, we're gonna go back for you, we're gonna change this. And it's one of the naughty things I think about the horse business is um, you know, we we we like to take someone down as much as we like a winner. And I was on my own, and I had I fought that battle on my own, and that was it. And you would think something like that, which was so wrong, that would set some sort of a precedent, but they never do. No, you know, subsequently, there's been multiple guys that have had uh, you know, suspensions and everything for those same type of contamination positives, and and you know, one thing about that, even you could say monetarily, I mean, the Panderosa he went to stud, and um, you know, I was sued by uh Peter Pan Stables because I'd allowed that horse to come in contact with morphine. Um, I spent three-quarters of a million dollars defending myself over an eight million dollar liability lawsuit. Are you are you real? And and and you know, and I and I I give myself a pat on the back for getting through that and getting out the other side because I think um you know that could have really just totally killed a career, right? Not only was it positive, I'm in the courts. And uh, you know, that was the end of that relationship, obviously, but um you know everything about it was wrong. Yeah, and it's still going on. That's the bottom line, it's still going on, right?

SPEAKER_03 52:31

It is, and when you have that many, you said eight or nine, I mean that's a red flag right there, right? Eight or nine trainers come up, morphine.

SPEAKER_05 52:39

But they've never had these positives before, and here they got this morphine derivative comes up, yeah. But but you know, here's the thing, and then I've I've spoken about this before. This is why one of the problems that we have in the business, and and I think a lot the business did used to be very strong, each state was strong, and each state decided to govern itself um without having a leader, and um, you know, this like I said, this was uh not a positive in New Jersey, but it was in Pennsylvania. You know, how is that right? I mean, how are we working as an industry to make things better when we're allowing this to happen? Right, you know, you can say, well, medication rules need to be um, you know, the same for everyone and all this type of thing. And you know, everyone will say that, but no one will do it. Right because they don't want to relinquish any control. And uh you know, it's like if you're in Kentucky, well, we do it our way. If you do it in New York, we do it our way.

SPEAKER_01 53:39

Right. And then a lot of times we've spoken about this in the past, specifically with Dr. Stephen Dye. You have all these scenarios where you have 40-50 horses racing, you're treating with therapeutics or basics, just basic things for basic situations, and one racetrack doesn't accept your entry, another one's fighting for your entry. When you're maintaining a stable of forget 60, 10 horses, five horses, it's very difficult to remember, especially in the tri-state area. Well, forget tri-state, you race all over Canada, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Delaware, um, Kentucky, and you have all of these separate rulings. It's a miracle we don't see more positives.

SPEAKER_05 54:30

Uh, yeah, for sure, especially uh, you know, uh uh Canada is um is very, very tricky because um they have a cordisteroid rule up there where um you know you can basically um you know use cortisone. Right. And cortisone will stay in the system for 30 days. So any horse coming down from Canada, um, you know, you better I I would not take a horse from Canada and race here for 30 days.

SPEAKER_02 54:55

Right.

SPEAKER_05 54:55

And yet it could just race up there and be fine.

SPEAKER_02 54:58

Right.

SPEAKER_05 54:59

Um no, it's it's it's a it's it's a very, very difficult thing. I mean, we had another situation where um even you know what one of the things that I kind of think about all of this too is that I don't quite understand, I don't understand why we're enemies. You know, why why aren't the racing commissions and us, the state veterinarians and us and the state veterinarians and my vetenarians, why aren't we all working together?

SPEAKER_02 55:24

Right.

SPEAKER_05 55:24

And why can't they just channel and said, hey, listen, you know, we've we've changed the tolerances on um on when you can give butazolid in. Uh we've changed it. It used to be 24 hours, uh you know, we're now we're changing it to 48. I mean, when they had um, you know, I had a positive, Marcus Mallander had a whole bunch of guys had positives, and um, they failed to notify. They notified the thoroughbreds, didn't notify the standard breads, and and it was right there in black and white, but that's what they had done. And it was so easy for them to turn around and say, Oh, I get it. All right, we, you know, they should have notified and they didn't. Once again, we serve a suspension. It's on your records.

SPEAKER_01 56:06

They changed the butte withdrawal in the state of New Jersey, changed the butte withdrawal and notified the thoroughbreds, but did not notify the standard bread. So you guys all came up with positives.

SPEAKER_05 56:18

Yep, yeah. And you know, and and and even like you know, giving a horse a shot of butte 24 hours out. I mean, I don't know what that really did. I used to have a bit of a chuckle to myself. Well, I guaranteed we were racing every single day, I guaranteed that my bet would come and see me every day. So usually we had some sort of a problem, and you know, and and we just had a thing, any horses three and up, they automatically were given um, you know, 10cc of butter 24 hours. And and um, you know, if I raced um, I don't know, 7,000 horses, and honestly, I probably have 5,000 positives. It's just not real. I mean, how do you how do you change the game and the and you know, change the rules in the middle of the game? But that's what they do. And to me, you know, there's things like that. I don't understand why we're not working together. It's all about you know, the greater good, putting the best product out there. It's not about I'll get you, you get me. That's just not the way it should be. Yeah, I agree.

SPEAKER_00 57:21

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SPEAKER_01 57:45

It's interesting. We've talked a lot about you know, some pretty heavy stuff that you went through and and all of that with the Panderosa. And I really want to thank you for for sharing that story because I think a lot of again, I say this a lot, misconceptions or misunderstandings about the harness racing business will paint such a negative, kind of horrific light. And you by you sharing that really, really, we we really appreciate it. I am gonna jump right into um Western ideal. What a horse he was, and um you did not receive him as in your stable until he was an aged horse. Is that correct?

SPEAKER_05 58:31

Yeah, no, we picked him up um in his four-year-old year. Okay, yeah, he had um he he was a very, very good two-year-old for um uh for uh Gene Regal. Yes, and um I don't know if people remember or not, but uh down the backside uh at the Red Mile, there was a couple of massive big oak trees that sort of hung over the track. And when you get into the fall, they dropped their leaves and everything, and Western Ideal uh left one of them and um severed a tendon. Oh and uh like I said, it was a pretty horrific injury, and um, you know, they gave him uh they did you know surgery on him and everything, and they gave him a full um I think it was like 18 months uh off, and uh then they gave him to Glea Burgess, who who you know started the horseback nice and slow. And yeah, and when he kind of got there, um they passed him on to me, you know, luckily.

SPEAKER_01 59:29

Well, if it's okay with you, I'd love to pull up um 2000 Breeders Crown. That that kind of season was aged pacers galore. Um, there were some major rivalries in there. Tell us a little bit about those rivalries.

SPEAKER_05 59:49

Well, I I mean it's it's one of the ones that I'll always remember. I just thought it was just awesome because you had John Campbell driving Dragon Again out of the uh Bill Robinson stable, and you had Michael Chance on Western Ideal um out of my stable, and um they had very contrasting styles. And uh Western Ideal was definitely a closer. He didn't like to be on the front, and Dragon Again, um he was sheer speed. So I I always felt it was um it was the you know the hunter and the hunted, and and that's how those races went. And you know, some of their um some of their hookups on there were epic. And uh I I remember one of my favorite races actually was the William Houghton, and where the two of them really, really got into it. Um, but no, there was you know, robberies are great. I mean, uh it's always good to be the winner and dominate and stuff like that, I guess if you're the trainer and the owner. But for the sport, I think robberies uh are everything. And I think even in this race here, um, you know, uh Dragon Again's the favorite, he's four to five favorite. Um, you know, we're three to one. There's another horse here coming first up. He's obviously pretty good, and you know, he's uh you know, they were they were good horses. They were um those days of the Medalands um with the big crowds. Uh you can guarantee a man, there's a whole bunch of people standing up right now just yelling at these horses. And you know, that they were they were memorable times. Look at the fact 26 and then another 26 and 2 down the backside. Yeah, I mean these horses just hooked into it, and yeah, yeah, and Mike didn't spare him. I think uh yeah, Mike, don't hit him so hard, please. He can sting one, can he? Yeah, you can sting one, they can't do that anymore. So great horse. Um that's the old uh Aztec bike, isn't it? Yeah, that's the old Aztec bike. Dead right, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:50

All right, that's before my time. I didn't know anything about Aztec bikes. Oh um, toughest defeat, Brett. What do you deem to be your toughest defeat?

SPEAKER_05 1:02:04

Um toughest defeat. I I know the most annoying one I probably ever had was uh you know, puppy robbing the breeder's crown in Canada. I I I I thought that was, I mean, I still can't I I still can't warrant it, I mean, at all. I mean, you know, they there was a there was a touch, they touched. And uh I mean, you know, if you talk to the drivers or you look at their uh at their race bikes, um, you know, someone's touching every night. And um, you know, he touched them when he went past them. And uh geez, is that enough to take him down? I don't know. I I just thought in a monumental situation like that, I mean, it you know, even if it was a maiden, I I just didn't think it warranted. And I I didn't understand it at the time. It took a long time for me to work out even what happened. I mean, I'm so embarrassed to say that I was in the winner's, and I just had no idea. Right uh, because I watched a race. I mean, I've watched thousands of races. I know when something's not right, um, I couldn't see anything wrong with that race. And um, next thing he was he was taken down, and uh, you know, and puppy rob's a very, very special horse. I I I think um he he didn't deserve that. He he deserved to uh you know have that breeders ground trophy and um you know one of those things, but it's racing, you know, and one thing about racing, uh, you know, you better put it put it behind you and get up the next day, and you know, it's a new day.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:36

Yeah, we're gonna watch it here with you. Um is Poppy Rob drew the tin hole. Is that correct?

SPEAKER_05 1:03:45

Um David Tiller was driving him. Um three, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:54

Oh, there's David. Yep.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:56

Yeah, there he is. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:58

He oh, that was called Arc Stranger from the Arch Stranger going to the front. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:03

Yannick's already putting the brakes on. And um, you know, one thing about racing up a wood vine, I mean, um, you know, when you've been doing this for as long as I have, you realize that um, you know, there's certain tracks, and and um, you know, Mohawk's one track where if you're first over in the last turn, you better be you better be good.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:25

And um, you know, he he come first up and uh you know you put Paul Dyke Stranger away. And uh I I just thought it was job done.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:34

Yeah, he's uh Poppy Rob's probably one of the fastest horses I've ever seen. And and we didn't even get to see uh we never saw the best of them.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:44

Exactly. No, he he was COVID year, and uh, you know, there was uh the racing got started late, and um he was he was quite a big horse, you know. He was um he he wasn't gross, but he carried he carried weight. And uh I always sort of thought when he got into the summer and stuff that he really um when he started to peer down and stuff, he would last the season and it'd be awesome. And um he showed that out at the meadows, winning at the meadows in 47. I mean, after his oh in the Audio Salem. Yeah, so like this race here, I think um, you know, this is this is late in your two-year-old year, but okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:22

So here is where the uh we're walking into the where the infraction was stated that it occurred.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:28

Yeah, they're stating uh hasn't happened yet, I don't think. Um yeah, they touched there and that was it.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:38

And that was it.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:39

Yep.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:42

Yannick never grabbed into his horse, he never like no, he did he didn't have to back off, he didn't have to do anything. I always thought the driver's a little bit of a code as well. And you know, I don't want to knock David or anything, but I but you know I I like Yannick, but Yannick is very uh is very Political person. He's a very good talker. And I think he got in on in on the phone and talked him into it. And David's kind of like, uh, well, you know, it we might have touched, and that was all David had to say, and that was that was the end of it.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:19

And uh, you know what? Um, we we we went home and we regrouped for our three-year-old year. Yeah, I think you came right back and win the governor's cup after this, totally dominant fashion. So not to take anything away, but uh if I was a judge, he wouldn't have came down. No, I I couldn't see it. You know, and not I'm not trying to be biased or anything, but I just didn't see it. I still don't see it for the states. I see that in every race every night.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:47

Yeah. Uh Hollywood Bob went on record to say Hollywood Bob, uh, one of the greatest statisticians in harness racing, said that was questionable at best. And on a side note, Poppy Robb out-earned stranger's tall dark stranger's two-year-old dear. He said so. He made sure that he made that point when he was talking about it.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:09

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:11

I mean, uh, for sure.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:13

Yeah, he was um, you know, like I said, we didn't see the best of him. And yeah, I think uh, you know, COVID was probably uh the most unfortunate thing that happened with him. And um, but you know, he's uh he's he's gone on to be a sire, he's gone through some health issues and come out the other other side of it, and um, you know, he's uh horses need talent and bit of wherewithal to be able to do that.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:36

Yeah. Um we we're gonna listen, you're very easy, easy to podcast because I was looking at the time and I was laughing out loud. We're probably gonna roll through the rest of this a little quicker than normal, but I first want to talk to you about in 2006, you made a very big move and moved you yourself and your family back to Australia. Tell us a little bit about that big move.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:04

Yeah, well, you know, it's funny when you come here and you're young and you're going. I mean, I I married a New Zealand girl, and uh, I think we always sort of said that uh one day we'll head back type of thing, and not knowing that you know, one thing about the horse business that it just rolls on, and one year, another year, another year, and it just rolls on. And uh, we had two children at the time, and they were 12 and 10, and it was just kind of one of those things where we sort of looked at each other, okay, we're just gonna keep doing this, and it's just never gonna stop. Um, you know, the children at the age now, if you don't go now, we're never going. Um, and you know, we're a very small family, and it just um, I'm not saying it was a hard decision because you know, racing's tough. I mean, I've been doing it at a high level for a long time. We'd already, you know, won like seven premierships at the Metal Lands and that, and you know, it I I didn't know what else I really needed to do, and um it was now or never. So uh, you know, and the kids being 12 and 10, and they were the ones who are the most horrific about moving than what we were, and uh you know, they were they were like I remember telling them one day, I think we're out at the meadows racing a horse, yeah, and we told them I and we're in a restaurant, I think they just threw themselves to the ground, and you know, we're not going, and you know, straight away you realize that you know children have personalities and agenda at all ages, but anyway, off we went, and um, you know, and it was great. I mean, it was it was a great 10-year uh period, and um, you know, the children get older, and one of my uh my oldest daughter there, she ended up going to uh St Andrews uh University in in uh Scotland. And um, with her degree and everything that she had, there was no reason for her to go back to where we lived. Where we lived in Australia was um it was a beautiful place, but very isolated. Um, a great place to travel if you're wanting to do uh Asia, um all up through China, that area. So we we did quite a bit of traveling and went into those uh areas where I think if you live in America, that's not where you head. You sort of need to work and stuff. So so that was a great experience. We got to see um a part of the world, uh a lot more of the world that we never would have seen if we were here in America. Uh, and then you know, like I said, my oldest daughter Grace, I mean, she she had a roommate uh from America and she's a US citizen. So she decided uh at the end of her college years that she was going to come back and uh live in New York. And um, and you know, my son, he was getting that age where he was about to, you know, finish up school without a great direction. Um, so I hooked him up with um Ross Krogan to come over here and do the horses. So, you know, my wife and I are there in in Australia, kind of looking at each other, and we got two children who are US citizens who have ended up back there again. And um unfortunately, um, you know, my wife's parents they both passed away within a very short period of time, and it was kind of an easy decision, I think, for us to get back together again and let's all get back to where we were, and um that's basically how it all evolved.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:31

So when you were down there, Brett, did you uh was it a relief say, hey, I just I I need this break for like 10 years, or did you still keep up with the business while you were there?

SPEAKER_05 1:11:44

Um, yeah, no, I had um, you know, quite a few friends. I mean, uh, I you know, life friends that I talked to. I mean, you know, Richard Norman worked for me for a long, long time, and I I talked to him and uh Ross Krogan, obviously. Um, you know, and I still had um, you know, I had stallion shears that I was managing, um, you know, Grimprimory the Year and Western Ideal. And um, I think there was like, I think when I left actually, a really good um uh little it's not really a stat, but uh well it is a stat, I think five of the top 20 stallions I trained. Wow on the pacing side. And um that's that's a little thing that I know and probably no one else knows because I had a lot of time on my hands down there, so I would see this stuff. And um yeah, so you know, I I I kind of you know, managing breedings, doing this and that, and um, you know, and I I did some different things down there, totally away from the horse business, but I still had horse friends there. And um, you know, in your follow thing. I mean, one great thing about um this this era versus you know eras gone by, I mean, I'm able to follow things and I kept tabs on everything, and we kind of made the decision to come back two years before I did. And um I I had Ross go and buy a couple of yearlings for me at Harrisburg, and intentionally we just broke them and made sure they could actually breathe and function, and I turned them out for an entire year, and then I went and bought another two and uh basically did the same thing. So when I arrived back here, I I didn't know I was gonna get any business. I I didn't I didn't know any layer of the land what was going to happen, and I I sort of tried to be kind of low profile and everything, and um I didn't want to uh you know take anyone's business basically. I I know that's that's just not the way to go. So I had a couple of horses and I I actually borrowed a a jog cart off Nifty and um and then just started again. And um it was which was interesting. I found it real interesting, and I know there was plenty of guys come up to me and said, Well, you know, the game's changed, mate. You know, I mean it's different, you'll you know, you you you won't keep up. And I'm like, okay, you know, so well, we'll see what happens, and I'll just sort of poked along and and I got a couple, and um, you know, even clients that I had, I mean, uh, even going to the I remember the first yearling sale I went to, I mean, we were right back here in February. I went to the sales at Lexington, and I just felt I was I stood behind a tree and said to myself, you know, what am I doing here? I mean, I actually thought I would get business, but I also understood how protective people are of the business they had. Um, so it was it was starting from scratch, and um, you know, luckily, uh, you know, Mr. McDuffie, he stepped right in and and uh you know bought me one. And I remember Frank Antonacci. I I think he must have seen me and felt sorry for me, and he he bought a he called it a leg. He'll said, I'll buy a leg of anything that you buy. And um, so I get a couple, and um, but you know, it was tread softly and um work your way up. And you know, I did I have any doubts? I probably did, but you know what? Um, when you're kind of a horse person, I mean a horse, you know, it's got four legs and a tail, and we worked it out. Things changed a little bit, but we worked it out.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:22

Yeah, and I think it's a great testament to you. Uh I remember doing an interview with uh Harness Racing Update in 2008, and I said, Well, Brett Pelling's the greatest I've ever seen. And uh a testament to you to take uh to be on top of your game, to take 10 years off, and then come back and like you never miss the beat. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:15:42

No, it's um, you know, with three horses of the years in the uh 20th century. I mean, I I actually think um I actually learned a lot when I was away. Um I I got into uh riding and um you know actual fitness and and everything and and I I kind of learned um I I sort of self-taught my myself uh a little bit on some things which I've actually applied to training. And um I think before it was kind of like work, you know, just work, work hard. If it's not working out, work harder. If that's not working out, just push. But I've I've learned that that's not really the way anymore. And I think the breed is luckily my way of thinking changed, and the breed changed a little bit also to where now I'm a lot more forgiving. And um, I I approach things a little bit different, and um, and plus when you get older, you don't panic, you know, you're not pushing as many buttons and and let the chips fall. And hopefully, if you've done everything the right way over a period of time, it falls the right way.

unknown 1:16:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:48

Ross Krogan was uh obviously a very big part of your success in the very beginning, that partnership, that friendship. You brought that same partnership and friendship to Noel Daly, Nifty Norman, uh uh, yeah, Noel Daly and Nifty Norman. And those gentlemen, incredible people, incredible horsemen, great fathers. Just there's something so special about all of you guys. Did you in the beginning of the relationship with Noel and Nifty? I mean, did you know that you were going to be lifelong friends?

SPEAKER_05 1:17:31

Uh yeah, I think so. But but um, you know, we were working. I I I can't emphasize how many hours we were putting in, and and you know, they were you know, Noel's an Aussie, nifty's a kiwi, and um, you know, they they know how to work, yeah. Basically head down ass up and get it done. Yeah, and that that was sort of our philosophy with everything, just get it done. There was no hesitation, it was we're we're almost um who's going tonight? You going, I'll go and you're going. And and and we were we were on it, and we're on it, you know, really as a team. And you know, it it it started off as um, you know, uh Brett Pelling Stables, but it easily could have started off Richard Norman Stables or Noel Daly Stables. It just uh I ended up kind of being the leader, and and the only difference for me then to them was that I was one who answered answer the phone. And uh but all the work and everything we did, and we did a lot of things together. I I think I had the end call on a lot of situations, but um you know they were they were good times, but it was um just being around people who thrived on work. I mean, that's really what it was, and and you know, and the thing with Ross was crazy, you know, people will say to me, Um, what do you tribute your success to? And um, you know, I spent many years with my my father, uh stepfather Brian Pelling, and and Brian Pelling's one of these very, very special people that no matter where I've gone in my life, someone has tapped me on the shoulder and say, Hey, um, you know, say hi to Brian for me, will you? And he's one of these people who's touched so many people in his life. And he's um he's just a great guy, he's fun. Um, and when it comes to training horses, I mean, like I said, I didn't have a horse training background, so everything was as I learned as I went along. And um, you know, Brian was awesome. I mean, we'd go up to the races at night, and um, you know, when when he left uh California, we went to Chicago. I went from being the number eighth groom down the shed row to his two second trainers, they didn't want to go to Chicago, so I I got this like quadruple promotion. So I I went from cleaning stalls to being the head trainer, and I mean, I got no idea what I'm doing, I'm just following Brian around everywhere. So my life was just following Brian everywhere. And Brian was great. He we would go to the track and we'd turn around, and you know, he'd be like, you know, we had a laser machine, we laser the horse's knee, and we lay and we he got I always remember we had this Chinese horse and it had all the pressure points on it. And we said, Well, let's laser this pressure point over the knee, and we'd go off to the races and we'd race that horse, and that horse would win. Well, guess what? I'm doing the next day.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:21

Lasering knees.

SPEAKER_05 1:20:22

I'm doing 30 knees, and and that's how Brian was. That's just how he was. And uh, you know, if we if we you know decided that snow came in, we didn't get to do we already had our own little farm, we couldn't train him for four or five days, and that horse went out and raced good. Next thing, you know what, we're having a vacation, they're all having some days off. That that's how Brian was, and Brian was awesome. But but my way of thinking, I was a little bit, huh, you know what, is that right? I I luckily I I had that way about me of where I think I kind of I weighed those things up, and he he might believe it, but I went along with it. I don't know if I really believed it, but I went, I was his biggest fan, and I went along with it. And uh, and then you know, when I hooked up with Ross, you know, Ross Ross is an excredibly uh great conditioner, he he just really is, and um you know, Ross is the one who taught me to go 350, 340, 330, 320, the whole conditioning period of getting one out of the field and getting down to where you need to be and how he needs to be, what he needs to do. And um I I give him a massive kudos for that. I mean, that's really uh that you know that that was awesome. And I've carried that with me till now, which I think um you know, Noel and Nifty they've followed on. They they kind of they put their groundwork in them, and um, and that's all really from from Ross. And you know, and even and my father also, um, you know, Brian, he was a great rigger of horses. He he liked to he could rig them. And you know, that's another skill in itself. I mean, there's training horses, rigging horses, setting them up. And um, I I like to be uh, you know, something I'm proud of is I know that the drivers have said to me, you know, we love driving your horses because they're rigged simple and they go forward, yes, and uh, and they know they're safe, and um, you know, so that all goes from uh I didn't teach myself that I've learned things along the way, but um, you know, Brian was very, very good at rigging horses. I mean, he, you know, he could make them go forward and make them go straight, and and that's a bit of an art in itself. So, you know, everyone learns something from somebody, and um, you just got to apply those things.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:51

Jack, your son, is now a full-time driver. Um, he's got 500 trips to the winner's circle and five million in earnings. What's it been like to watch him evolve into this new life?

SPEAKER_05 1:23:06

Um, you know what? Pretty fascinating.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:23:10

I mean, it kind of kind of sort of blew me away because, you know, Jack's a very, very interesting character because um, you know, at that age, um, I didn't really have it either, but my grounding was probably sort of more rural than him. And you know, he basically went out of school um when I sent him over to Ross, and I remember um Ross Sander, he says, he says, mate, he said, he's been here a week and I haven't been able to put a head holder on yet. And you know, so you're looking at a head holter and it's kind of like and he he kind of worked it out, and then um, you know, straight away when I as soon as I had two horses and four horses and six horses, I had him come and help me. And so pretty much immediately before um he could really clean us all properly, he's out there working with me on the track.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:10

Right.

SPEAKER_05 1:24:11

We'd be training along, and you know, no idea about reading a watch, really no idea what we're even doing. And um, we'd be training horses, whatever, and I'd be looking over my shoulder, telling them what to do, and come alongside me. And then it wasn't too long, and I'm looking across, and I'm I'm pushing buttons here trying to get go, and he's just sitting outside me like like like this, and these horses are just like loving him. And I thought, holy smoke, have a look at this! And and one thing I learned straight away, and and God bless him, I don't know where it came from, but they run for him, and uh they they like him, they run for him, and um you know, and it took him a while to uh I think to really appreciate it and understand it and and everything like that. Uh, but he does, he does now, and um he's he's keen.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:07

Crazy.

SPEAKER_05 1:25:08

And you know, and he he doesn't live with us anymore, he has his own place, but um, I enjoy hearing his stories from from the racing side, and uh one little funny thing about Jack is I thought this was a classic. This is when you know it's your son. Because um there's one day sitting in the office and he came in and he had a printout, dropped a printout right in front of me. I said, What's that? He said, That's your record, and that's my record.

SPEAKER_04 1:25:39

Yeah, I'd like more, really. And and I I've driven 57 minutes, so he bought it in and dropped it in front of me when I when he had 48. And I said, Are you for real? Didn't give me a warning or anything, just dropped it on the front. I love it. I just knew you for the first time in my life and he and he's and he's carried on.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:12

What what has Brett Pelling not done in his career? What is something that you haven't accomplished that you'd like to accomplish?

SPEAKER_05 1:26:25

Um yeah, I don't know. I mean, um, you know, uh I I I've I've I I've said I've I've probably gotten more into uh ownership side of things now. And um it'd be nice to own a really, really uh uh great horse. And I kind of feel right now that I'm very, very proud of. I mean she just goes wonderful. Um, but you know, she's had six starts for her life with five wins, and her name's Mr. Trevor. And um, you know, we we liked her last year, but we didn't really know that she'd be um you know as good as she is, and you know, she might kind of carry on, but I think the satisfaction uh of of owning is probably something that I'm probably looking forward to more than anything. And you know, we we did finish second in the Hamiltonian there once, but I I I don't have that dream of winning the Hamiltonian. Um I I don't have that. Um another Medalands pace, not really. I mean, it's it it's all good. I mean, uh, there's not really any boxes I really want to check other than just, you know, go and uh enjoy it. Enjoy resting good horses.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:42

Yeah, yeah. Well, we love to wrap all of our podcasts up with really quick, short quickfire questions. Before I get to quick fires, Roy, do you have anything uh left for Brett before we jump into those?

SPEAKER_03 1:27:58

I don't, I I just want to say uh Thanks for joining us, and it's been an absolute pleasure to sit down and talk to you. Yeah, yeah, no, awesome. No, I uh I've enjoyed it.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:07

All right, so just a couple questions. You don't have to think about them too deeply. Whatever comes to your mind, we love.

SPEAKER_05 1:28:14

Uh, favorite movie, favorite movie. One flew over the cobbo's nose.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:26

Okay. What's playing on the radio in the truck when you're driving up and down the road or in the car?

SPEAKER_05 1:28:32

Uh NBA radio.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:34

Favorite cocktail.

SPEAKER_05 1:28:38

Uh I don't drink, but if I had to have a drink, it'd be an old-fashioned. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:43

Are you an early bird or a night owl?

SPEAKER_05 1:28:46

Definitely an early bird.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:48

Uh who's your biggest cheerleader?

SPEAKER_05 1:28:52

Uh probably my youngest daughter. I have a younger young daughter, Lily, and she seems to be um, she seems to know what's going on um a lot more than uh than I realize.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:06

Who's your toughest critic?

SPEAKER_05 1:29:11

Ah, my toughest critic. Who puts me in line is definitely my wife.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:19

By the way, that is lovely to anybody who's listening.

SPEAKER_05 1:29:24

I I I I have an owner, um, we have a lot of banter, as names Alan Katz, three by the stable. And um, if I do something wrong on the racetrack, like a head pole falls off, or this or that, or you know, something happens, and he's he's on it. He's on it all the time. He does not let anything slide. So he's uh and I I I appreciate him, it's quite good. So we've quite a few laughs.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:51

What is your pet peeve? Something that bothers you.

SPEAKER_05 1:29:56

Um a pet peeve is probably how so many things are redundant, don't need to be. Um there's so many things could be simpler. Um, I don't think a lot of people, especially people that are running this business, um, don't realize. I mean, the years roll around quickly. Yeah. And I feel like we're always handling licensing stuff, we're always handling some sort of paperwork on this or that, or there's just something, and it that's it just seems to be never-ending. And uh, like I'll I'll come and spend an hour in the office every single day with something to do, and it's all kind of like, oh, really? A classic example is what are we doing for checks? Why are we writing out checks and taking them to the track, and then you don't have a check, and someone will say to you, well, you might not get to race. I mean, are you serious?

SPEAKER_02 1:30:56

Right.

SPEAKER_05 1:30:57

And you know, like one thing I learned from being in Australia for 10 years, I mean, I never wrote a check for 10 years. It didn't exist. Here I come back to America and I'm still I'm stepping back in time, especially in the industry. We're doing things like we did many, many moons ago that we don't need to do it that way anymore. We we can be better than that.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:17

Yeah, okay. Um, last one. What was your last impulse purchase? Something you just bought, you had to buy it.

SPEAKER_05 1:31:30

My last one.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:32

Okay, you can hit us with anyone. If it's good, we'll love it.

SPEAKER_05 1:31:36

Um my impulse purchase, um probably probably uh the Philly that I have right now, Miss Jum Jabber. Um I didn't own her uh as a great owner that I owned her, and um we had an agreement that she's gonna be picked up on October 15 to bring back into training, and and uh I went to pick her up October 15th, and they told me she's in the Harrisburg sale. I'm like, Really? Okay, and so to me that was an impulse purchase. I mean, the sale was over for me on the Tuesday, and uh you know, went home and everything, and then I grabbed my daughter and I said, you know what, let's just go out and see this Philly sale, and um and I bought her. It was an impulse, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:32:24

I love it. Yes, Brett, thank you so much for your time. We really, really appreciate you.

SPEAKER_05 1:32:33

Yeah, I'm sorry about the thunderstorms.

SPEAKER_01 1:32:35

Yeah, that's that's okay. I for those who are watching and listening to the podcast. If if we're a little rocky, we're both Brett and I are dealing with some serious thunderstorms, but Rory's in Texas where it's always sunny.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:49

Oh, yeah. Oh, good to know, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:32:52

Yes, uh, thanks again for your time, Brett. Good luck. I know you've got a great, great group of horses going into 2026. Um, and thanks again for sharing your story, and we'll see you soon.

SPEAKER_05 1:33:05

Yeah, thank you for having me. Thank you. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:13

That was another episode of Under the Light with Act Meroy. Thank you to the sponsors and help your coffee for this episode. Whether you're headed home from the arena or just getting your day started, we're glad you spent some time with us. Around here, it's all about the stories behind the grind. We want you to be part of the story too. So comment, connect, and follow right here on this platform. And don't miss the house. Whatever life's got your writing, stay enough, stay through. And we'll meet you right back here next time under the lights with that enough.