The Government Mule Episode 3 - Michael Willis & John Fothergill

🎙️ New Podcast Episode!

Tulsa County Clerk Michael Willis sat down with Tulsa County Treasurer John Fothergill for a conversation about how the Tulsa County budget works and how their offices work together to responsibly manage taxpayer dollars.

In this episode, they give an inside look at how county funds are managed, how different offices work together to serve the public, and how taxpayer dollars support essential services across Tulsa County.

It’s a quick and informative overview of the systems and partnerships that help keep the county government running smoothly.

Give it a listen! 🎧

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:03

You're listening to the Government Mule Podcast, a production of the Tulsa County Clerk's Office in Oklahoma. All right. So here we are on uh I guess this would be episode three of the Government Mule Podcast. Um I'm your host, Tulsa County Clerk Michael Willis, joined by the Honorable John Fathergill, our county treasurer. And we're gonna cover several things today. Um we're gonna talk a little bit about the county's budget, which we talked about in the last uh episode with some of my budget team. We're talking about the treasurer's office and what all they do. Um we have a unique relationship uh as far as kind of government goes and how our offices work together. Um and then we're gonna talk about some other cool stuff. So we'll just dive right in. Yesterday we had some um a continuation of our budget process. We had a special meeting, or actually not a special meeting. We had a regular meeting of the Tulsa County Budget Board yesterday. Um and we looked at employee raises, longevity pay, um, retirement contributions, but the biggie really was the target overrun requests. What sort of highlights would you want to talk about, Treasurer Fathergill, about that process from yesterday?

SPEAKER_01 1:17

Well, we started out with a lot of requests, and we have always a limited amount of funds. And so we try to figure out which ones are the best to ensure that Tulsa County citizens are getting the best services that we can, and we can't fund them all, and that's unfortunate. So we try to find which ones are the best. And sometimes we can find uh creative ways to finance them. Uh and sometimes we find that they aren't uh the entire request isn't needed. And so uh through our processes, we whittled those down, and I think we did really good on finding uh the right ones so far.

SPEAKER_00 1:58

I'll throw a shout out here to John. Um in our budget hearings we had a couple weeks ago, um, there was some discussion about some pretty big ticket items. Um, our building department, building ops facilities, whatever they're called. Facilities manager these days had a pretty big project for a building controls system for our courthouse. And I know this is real sexy information that you want to hear about, but it is uh your money um and your operations going on here. But they had requested a couple million dollars for this project, um, which is a real big ticket item, um, one of the biggest we had on our list. And um John here, you know, asked him to kind of sharpen the pencil and go back. And uh they came to us this last week, uh yesterday, with a major reduction in that uh project. So it went from a $2 million project to what, was it $700? $780,000 I think. Or no, $730,000. $730,000. So that was, you know, more than a uh, you know, $1.2 million change in that project, um, which you know, we kind of started out with about $10 million to play with in terms of the ability to fund some of these special requests. Um so dropping that uh overall ask from $2 million to less than $1 million was a big deal because we started out with more than $11 million in asks. Um I would talk about a couple of the other uh things that come to our budget process that people may not recognize because we fund um operations of public safety, roads, um offices like ours, the assessor's office, the court clerk's office, um, a bunch of the county commissioners' departments. Um but some of the special requests we get from sort of outside entities um are kind of interesting sometimes. And one of my favorites um is the specialty court. Um they they run a uh over in the court district we have a veterans court, mental health court, drug court, DUI court, and there could be another one in the mix there, but um they're operated by funding that comes from us, even though we're not necessarily obligated as the county government to fund it because it's really a state government function. Um but then the Oklahoma Mental Health Department is supposed to kick in for most of their stuff and then they get some grants. This year, um the mental health department at the state level didn't really uh come up with the amount of money that they had committed. And so um Erica and her team over there came over and asked us for a little bit more. Both John and I are pretty passionate about those programs because um they keep people out of jail, they do a really good service for our public. And um yesterday we approved, I think, money to assist in their operations and give their employees a little bit of a pay raise. Yeah. Is that right?

SPEAKER_01 4:48

Yeah. And I will say they also help free up a lot of the court space. Um, the if if you didn't have these specialty courts, the the dockets on the regular court dockets would be, you know, twice as long. And so um that that helps them out as well on the court side. And uh like Michael said, if if we can divert somebody from going to jail um through one of these specialty programs, well, that means they can go back to work. That means they can go back to their family, and you know, that's important uh for Tulsa County. And so uh it's worth it, I think, uh, to help fund those.

SPEAKER_00 5:20

100 percent. It's one of my favorite programs we fund. Um unfortunately, you know, our funding is a little tighter this year, so we're having to make some more difficult decisions. Um and their funding is tighter because the state's not really living up to what they've committed to do to fund that program. But um at least for this year, we're in good shape. We've we've funded them to go on for another year. Um that's a big deal. Any other of the budget items from yesterday you want to talk about?

SPEAKER_01 5:47

Yeah, I I like the uh OSU um extension center. Um you know, that serves all of Tulsa County. They do uh a lot of great programs, the Master Gardeners. Um they have the 4-H program that they run through there, and uh they do outreach throughout the county as far as nutrition and health and and uh you know homesteading type stuff. They they go out and above and beyond, and we were able to help them with their computers this year. Um, you know, their computers were old and out of service, and so uh we were able to help them replace it. I think it was $13,000.

SPEAKER_00 6:21

But $13.5 or something like that.

SPEAKER_01 6:23

Every penny counts, and so uh we we look at everything, and that's I was happy that we were able to do that one there.

SPEAKER_00 6:29

One of the one of the real big ticket items on the county's budget overall is infrastructure and roads. We had lots of discussion um about our engineering department, just so everyone is clear. The way um engineering and highways works here is we have a county engineer who works for the county commissioners, and he has a core staff here in our building at the administration building here downtown. But then they have four district offices out in the county. So each county commissioner has a district office that handles maintenance and minor to moderate level construction projects, and then we have a highway construction division that's located out off of 169 in South Owasso, um North Tulsa County out there, um, and they do some of the bigger projects. Um we are probably the only county, go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 7:23

Most of the bridge work is done through that office. That's that's their uh big task that they do.

SPEAKER_00 7:28

Yeah, we got a bunch of bridges in the county, close to 200, I think, um bridges that the county crew has to take care of. But um so we're probably the only county, maybe there's uh one or two other counties in the state that put money from our general fund budget, so essentially property tax and other service-related revenues that come in. We're one of the only counties that put anything from that into the highway operations. Um the last several years, our county engineer and the county commissioners have requested uh quite a few million dollars of assistance. Everybody on the budget board, I think every single person is very pro-infrastructure. We want our crews to be able to get out and pave roads and whatever. Um this year we had some real big asks and we had quite a bit of discussion on it. You want to talk about any of those?

SPEAKER_01 8:15

Sure. Um so unbeknownst to you, but as uh we were walking in here, I had a discussion with Alex Mills, who is our county engineer and the best one we have. And uh he was talking to me about the salt barn, which we had had a discussion about yesterday, and he thinks that that that that price might be a little bit more than what they need for that salt barn, and so um that was great to hear. But there's a lot of uh request um as far as capital needs. Um they need machineries, they need uh some buildings built, and so we were able to tap into the Capital Reserve Fund and tackle some of those this year, which is great. Um it allows us to be able to stretch our general fund dollars a little bit more, but we do put some general fund dollars into maintenance. And you know, Tulsa County is unique in that most of our uh roads in the county are are not dirt or gravel or um easily maintained with a grater. Um, you know, I have a piece of property out in Garfield County that I own with my brother and my father, and um, you know, it's a dirt road. Um if you have a house, you get gravel up to your house, but anything that doesn't have a house on it is just dirt. And so to maintain that, all you need is a motor grater and you just run it up and down um after big rainstorms. Um in Tulsa County, almost everything we have is made out of asphalt and or concrete. And so, and we might have you know signalized intersections, and you know, people don't realize, but those signals are $300,000 for one intersection. And so, you know, that's why we're starting to do roundabouts because you don't have to pay for that infrastructure of that signalized uh intersection. And it's also, believe it or not, a little safer as far as insurance. Um, they'll tell you that a roundabout is is safer than going through a uh a lighted intersection. So you know, we are trying to be smarter and wiser with our dollars, but we uh we put some of our general fund, and you know, that takes away from being able to maybe put another sheriff out there or um, you know, doing something else in the county. Um, but we think it's important at this point. Uh I have said, you have said, all the commissioners have said that we wish the state would uh provide more funding through the motor vehicle tax or the um you know license plate tax that that's collected, but um, you know, we'll have to fight those fights another year. Um, this session is already over, and and uh you know, we'll we'll try to increase our funding that way. Um we did get increase in our bridge funding uh construction uh thanks to uh the Commissioners and their efforts to host a lot of the legislators in our Tulsa County and show them the condition of our bridges. You know, Oklahoma as a state, um, the on um what do they call that, on-the-books bridges for ODOT, uh we are now in the on system, thank you. We are now the top ten uh in the in the country. Um but our off-system bridges, which are the ones that the counties and the cities are are are uh in charge to maintain, um, you know, we are are not. Um we're still in the lower 40s, I think, on on our bridges. So um while we've had a lot of good success on the statewide level, we need to increase our success in the county and city level.

SPEAKER_00 11:42

So I would say, you know, just to touch on what John said about going to get additional funding. Um Commissioner Stan Slee, our District 1 County Commissioner, really led the charge on that last year. Um without his efforts, I don't believe that funding would have been approved. So that's gonna be a good thing for the whole state. Um and it will certainly help, I think, as we try to work to refit our bridges and that sort of stuff. Um well let's shift gears a little bit from the budget process. We still have a little bit of work to do on the budget. We haven't finalized everything yet. Um and as we talked about in the last episode, we will have um an opportunity for public to come in. Of course, we encourage public input at any given time in the budget process. You can always email me. You can email John, any one of our the rest of our uh six other budget board members to talk about your input, ideas, thoughts, um, complaints, questions about the budget or what our priorities are. Um, but we've got a little bit of work left to do on that, and that process will go on for another um at least another month and a half or so before we finalize things. But let's talk a little bit about the treasurer's office. So there's probably um out there maybe some um misunderstandings about how county finance works. A lot of people, when I tell them that the county clerk's office handles accounting and finance work and general ledger and assets and payroll and all that kind of stuff, they say, well, I thought the county's treasurer office did that. So maybe shed a little bit of light on um some of your duties, and then we'll talk about how our offices work together.

SPEAKER_01 13:12

Trevor Burrus, Jr. Sure. So um I often tell people that I'm more like the county bank, um, and you guys are the county accounting firm. And so um we reconcile off each other, and and um but I'm the more in charge of collecting the funds and investing those funds. Uh we we have accounts all over uh Tulsa County with banks to uh invest those funds right here in Tulsa County. So um we try to keep all the your tax money in Tulsa County as best we can. And so once we invest in those banks, uh we make sure that the money is paid back out to the taxing entities. And so uh we send checks every month to the schools, to the library, to the health department, um, back to the Tulsa County General Fund from our tax collections. Most people think, well, you know, I only pay my taxes in December or March. And uh that's true for most people, but there are people that pay taxes every day of the year that were open. Um of them are delinquent, um, and so uh we uh have a whole department that handles delinquent taxes, because um, if you miss your payments um for a long enough time, three and a half years, um at the end of that three and a half years I have to sell your property for those delinquent taxes. So um, you know, tax collection, although it seems like it's just you know a couple times a year, we we work on it every day, um, especially those delinquent taxes.

SPEAKER_00 14:45

So traffic gets a little bit heavy in our building a couple times a year. So for the for the regular people like me, at least I have a mortgage. Um so if you have a mortgage, generally how are your taxes getting paid?

SPEAKER_01 14:58

Aaron Ross Powell, Jr. So usually um I th I want to say it's in the 98 or 99 percent people have it at escrow. And so you'll pay um to your mortgage company, uh part of your payment goes for taxes, usually some of it is for your home insurance, and the rest goes to your mortgage. And so they hold it in escrow in a in a separate savings account, in other words, and hold that. And at the end of the year in December, uh mortgage companies are required to pay um the entirety of the tax at the end of the year. So by December 31st, we'll get a check from your mortgage company, or sometimes they'll use a third-party processor and bundle it up and send us all uh big checks um at the end of the year to cover the mortgage uh holders responsibility on taxes. And the reason that is is because the mortgage company wants to make sure you pay your taxes so that I don't sell your property because they have interest in it.

SPEAKER_00 15:58

So for the folks that are, again, you know, just regular taxpaying citizens that may have paid off their mortgage, or they may just own their property, may have paid cash for it, um, or they may have some other financing arrangement. There are mortgages that don't have escrow's attached to them or other financing things, what are their options for payment?

SPEAKER_01 16:20

So if it's a homestead, and that's determined uh by the Assessor's Office, uh, but but in general, if you're a homestead, you can pay half, uh up to half or more uh by December 31st, and you pay the remaining balance by March 31st. If it's not a homestead um or it's a commercial property or or whatnot, um you have to pay it all by December 31st. And so um we we try to make sure that everybody is able to have the ability to pay their taxes either here in the office or you can pay it online. Um, there's a 1-800 number you can call. Um, and we also do some remote cashiering um between Thanksgiving and Christmas. Uh we we go out for three weeks and we're in five different banks all around Tulsa County, uh including the city of Tulsa, um, and try to make it easier for people to pay those taxes without having to come downtown uh to our office. But we do get a lot of traffic here um at Sixth in Denver at our office, and uh we're happy to have them in our you know come pay as well.

SPEAKER_00 17:28

Yeah, it's not always convenient for people to come downtown. Um, although I would say today it's more convenient than it was, let's say we move into this building five more than five years ago. Um when you had to come to the courthouse when we both officed over there, parking was a lot tighter. We do have free customer parking now just south of our building, which is nice. So come see if you need to come see us. We love to have you. Free parking. Um most days that lot is not full, so come on down and see us. Um pay those taxes um one or two times a year. Um let's talk a little bit more about how our offices work together because you mentioned that um you know we really are kind of a one-two punch, if you will, as it relates to county finance work. Um so my office collects fees every day from people that come in and either buy copies of land records or um come in and record a deed or some other document in our office. And we cashier those people there in the office, and then um a couple times a day we're sending people up to to visit your office because the treasurer's office does act as our bank. Um so any office in the county, whether it's a park taking fees for um, you know, recreation or other uh shelter reservations or anything like that, or whether it's the county clerk's office, or whether it's one of our other offices, our inspections office, assessor's office, any of us that take any money come visit you every day.

SPEAKER_01 18:58

Yes. So uh we, like I said, are the bank, and so it's required by state statute that um you have to deposit your money within 24 hours. And so um we get deposits every day from all the various departments and uh take those and record them, apply them to their accounts, and then um you know we we but put them in the bank. And so we do that every day. Try to make sure that um everybody has their funds available to them immediately.

SPEAKER_00 19:27

So all county offices do that with the treasurer's office. Um in terms of the way the the money flow actually works. John mentioned earlier that he does apportionment. Uh we actually technically work together to do that, although your office does most of that now. Um to apportion out the the tax dollars and other funds that come in that go to the taxing entities. Um but in addition to that, we um we basically keep a mirrored set of books. So um one of the really great systems of controls we have in county government in Oklahoma, really, is that um is the county clerk and the county treasurer keep a mirrored checkbook, if you will. Um and we have to reconcile that once a month, although our staffs work together really daily. Daily. And so, like, for example, whenever um whenever we build the payroll in the county clerk's office, we will we'll put all the data and everything together for that payroll um and then present it to the county treasurer's office for them to release to go to the banks.

SPEAKER_01 20:31

Yeah. And so uh you know, we've talked before with the the State Auditor, and they'll tell anybody that county government is the most uh secure form of government, the most uh open form of government, and the most uh transparent form of government. And you know, that's because we do keep two sets of books. Um you can't touch mine, I can't touch yours. And so if they're off, then we we figure it out and figure out why. And um because of that, we are um almost above reproach. And so that that's great to to have that kind of um thoughtfulness and faithful umness in your in your numbers that you know if you got them right and I got them right, we're right. So um we appreciate having that that balancing act. And um it's because of state statute, but it I think it really helps the citizens of Tulsa County be assured that every tax dollar is accounted for um twofold at least, you know, between your office and our office.

SPEAKER_00 21:32

For sure. Yeah, we have um so in my office we have an accounts payable group that audits all of our purchase orders and all that. Um we have a purchasing um office or procurement, we call it now, that's separate actually from both of our offices that help um ensure that we are purchasing things and buying goods and services in the right way. And then we do. I mean, we match up our stuff every month. Um sometimes things don't add up and we have to go to work and figure out where something is. Um but thankfully we've got I mean speak for my group and I think you'd say the same thing. We have incredibly smart people that work for us. I say all the time that, you know, all my folks are smarter than me, which is a good thing. And they work hard to make the right things happen and um you know balance out our stuff.

SPEAKER_01 22:21

Absolutely. I tell everybody every time I go out that, you know, I don't do the day-to-day stuff, that the the people that work in my office do that. And we are one big team and without them I am nothing. So yeah, they uh they go out and and do all the hard work and um a lot of them have been here for a long time and are truly dedicated to the citizens of Tulsa County and uh I love that I'm a part of that team and and able to help lead them.

SPEAKER_00 22:50

So yeah for sure. You know one of the other things that we work together on that I think is important and this impacts all of our taxpayers um is our transparency initiative. So um back when when I started as county clerk in 2017 um we had an issue with uh with you know our our transparency was good. I mean we published things in the in the paper we make um we make budget books that show what our budget looks like and all that kind of stuff uh one of the things I thought we were lacking is you know being able to actually view our dynamic financial data because it changes. I mean we we will we were just talking about the budget process we will print a budget book um towards the end of June it'll be real nice it'll be about that thick or so have lots of great information in it but anyone who understands budgeting knows a budget is a plan.

SPEAKER_01 23:42

Aaron Ross Powell But before that comes off the press that that that budget has probably already changed a couple times in a couple different ways that we didn't foresee and and that's you know it's a plan but you know all plans change you know as as you go throughout the the process.

SPEAKER_00 23:57

So right so so what we did is we employed a um our transparency initiative we have a portal on our website um we use a company called open gov which is is pretty cool um every week we pay bills so um at the Board of County Commissioners meeting the the com the commissioners generally approve our list of bills ranges anywhere from probably 400 to 700 bills per month um or I mean per week that we're paying out so checks and EFTs and money transfers going out the door you can actually log on and see our checkbook which I think is really cool um and that's something we work together on. I I pay for part of that service John's office pays for the other part. We don't use um tax dollars per se we use money from bees that come into our office. So it's a nice thing I think for us I I enjoy using it as well. It's a management tool for me but it's also great for our taxpayers.

SPEAKER_01 24:56

Well it it opens the door for everybody to see every penny that's spent in Tulsa County and when you have that accountability I think it it it lends the trust that people have in Tulsa County the the ability for anybody to you know dig in and see how much our electric bill is at you know LaFortune Golf Park or you know where we spend our dollars, I think that's important. I don't think that we have another institution in and around Tulsa County that that has that kind of financial detail available to the citizens. And so I'm very proud of that and thank you for leading that initiative and you know we are I think there's a Sunshine award that we won at one point that uh you know our openness and transparency in government and and I appreciate you taking the lead on that and glad to help you you know finance that.

SPEAKER_00 25:52

Joint effort for sure um I was going back to one thing I forgot I did want to mention or ask you. So you are essentially the county's chief investment officer as well as being the revenue collector um and you do have money parked in banks throughout Tulsa County how do you choose those we have a list that's approved by the the County Board of Commissioners.

SPEAKER_01 26:17

They have to approve any investment policy that we have and the investment policy lists all the banks that we are um uh that we have available to to invest in. But we do what what I call a a blind auction and so we say you know here are the rates that we have today and we're going to be pulling money you know what do you want your rates to be tomorrow and that way um we get the best rate that we can for the citizens of Tulsa County. We try to keep it like I said as much as we can invested in Tulsa County. I think that the money inside the county will just turn over you know if the banks can lend that to a local corporation or a company or somebody's for their house or car loan, you know, that's great. And so we try to keep that invested locally as best we can and uh try to to get a return on our investment so that the the citizens of Tulsa County pay a little bit less in taxes each year. Everything that we invest, the the investment income goes into our general fund and that just means less amount that we have to ask for taxes in the next year.

SPEAKER_00 27:22

Yeah yeah I think that's a good point. So I want to talk for just a couple minutes about a couple of the cool things that you do that I hear about. So you talked about your remote locations um and we also told you we're we love to have you down here our building but the remote locations are really a big deal around the community. You know a lot of people don't know the difference between my job and your job and the assessor's job and the court clerk's job or whatever. So we all hear stuff about other people while we're out in the community. Having those remote locations is super nice and people love it. But one of the other things that I really appreciate about um Treasurer Fathergill is his callback policy. So he can tell you more about it but the bottom line is if you call the county treasurer's office today or tomorrow or when they're open and you ask to talk to John, as long as John is available in the office, you're gonna talk to John.

SPEAKER_01 28:17

That's correct. Or if you come by um you don't have to have an appointment or anything. If you want to come talk to me I work for the citizens of Tulsa County my door is always open my phone is always available if I'm available you you have my time that's that's the contract that I signed up for as an elected official is that you know my time is your time because you elected me. And so yeah if you call or email or whatever, it's it's me that you're gonna talk to um you won't get pushed off and you don't have to tell anybody why you want to talk to me. You just say I want to talk to John and that's all they need. And I tell all my folks that if you know if if you get sideways with anybody, don't you know you know don't don't hesitate to send them to me and I'll try to help them out as best I can. You know, so it it doesn't bother me to to talk to anybody about anything. Again that's what you know you elected me for and that's what we do. And and I'm I know you have pretty much the same policy.

SPEAKER_00 29:17

So yeah and you know the sad thing is sometimes we can't tell people what they want to hear. You know, we have to abide by state laws and policies and we have to do right by the taxpayer. And so yeah we um I I think one of the great things about about our organization is I I think probably most of our elected officials are pretty approachable and we're interested in customer service. And I've I've talked to people before about you know why do you elect a county clerk or why do you elect a county treasurer. Well I think it's what it really comes down to is service to the taxpayer and the customer. And some people have even criticized me over the years about calling people who come into our office customers. And but bottom line is they're coming in for a service and um either fortunately or unfortunately we try to make it fortunate for them. Fortunately John Fathergill has a monopoly on collecting taxes in Tulsa County. I the county clerk's office have a monopoly on receiving and recording land records um and those sorts of things in the county but we don't want to act like we have monopolies um we are here to serve customers and provide good customer service so you know I tell people that um not to pick on anyone but there are some government offices where you don't get the best customer service. Not every single person that comes into our office is always happy to be there but we hope and we try really hard to have our staff take good care of them, make sure that um you know they have a pleasant experience and by and large I think that's what happens in the county treasurer's office and and my office to a degree as well but you get a lot of people in a in a short volume of time coming in starting in November and then another big flux coming in towards the uh the end of March. Not all of them are happy to be there and paying those taxes but um they're treated well.

SPEAKER_01 31:15

Oh yeah that's that's our number one thing we have to offer is customer service. So we try to go above and beyond I always tell my folks when somebody calls here I want that to be their last call they make and that even if we don't have the responsibility for that, you know, whatever they're seeking, that we get them to the right person and that's the last call that they made. You're right the the only thing we have to offer is customer service and and we don't have to offer it. We could we could have terrible customer service in our office and if that's the case I would expect the people of Tulsa County to elect a different clerk and a different treasurer but as long as we provide the best customer service I hope that they would see that you know they have the right people in those offices. And so you know that's that's my motivation is to make sure that they're as happy as they can be. Nobody's happy paying taxes. I hate paying taxes but you're gonna have the best customer service while you're paying those taxes that you could possibly have.

SPEAKER_00 32:14

Yeah yeah for sure um one other thing to touch on then we'll get into a little bit of kind of personal business and background but um uh John talked about this before you have a resale auction that happens every year in June and that's due because there are people that don't make those tax payments and when they get three and a half years delinquent by state law you don't have a choice by state law the treasurer shall shall it's the difference between a May and a shall the treasurer shall place those properties on an auction. So talk to us about that process.

SPEAKER_01 32:51

So again it it's by state statute and it says that I shall sell delinquent properties that are more than three years delinquent on the second Monday in June. And so we have our sale this year is June 9th and we have it every year at the Civic Center as long as we can rent it out. Last year we had almost 800 bidders we sold 184 properties and we did that all in one day. And so we uh we we try to be as efficient as we can. It's the worst part of my job. A lot of those properties are unoccupied but but some of them are occupied. And you know that's that's never what I want to do. But the reality is if if you didn't have some kind of consequence nobody would pay taxes. And so we have to have that consequence and we give everybody three and a half years and every ability to pay that but at some point you got to say that that's it. And so one thing I don't think a lot of people realize is that the other taxpayers of Tulsa County are financing that delinquency and that they pay the taxes and keep the schools and the cities and the counties running at the at the lack of effort on the other taxpayers that aren't paying those taxes. And so you're basically carrying those loads until I can sell that property and refund the taxpayers. And so it's unfortunate but it's something we have to do. Like I said we we try every um way that we can to get those taxes paid. We send 17 uh very the minimum is 17 notifications in those three and a half years asking them to pay those taxes. But sometimes people are can't or won't or don't want to for whatever reason and so that's ultimately what we have to do.

SPEAKER_00 34:45

So we talked about a rush of customers coming in to pay those taxes on the prescribed dates in December and then March. But you also get a little rush of people coming in to pay some or all of those taxes approaching that second Monday in June, correct?

SPEAKER_01 35:04

Yes and state statute has changed last year you could pay all the way up until I filed the deed in your office but the law has changed and beginning at the of my auction once I start the auction we are no longer allowed to take payments in my office and we will sell all the properties and that's a change this year. We put a notice in all of our mailings that we've done for delinquent property taxes. It's a bright yellow piece of paper and it says that just that that if you want to take your property out of the auction that Friday before is the only guaranteed date to make sure that your property is not sold because at 8 a.m on Monday I could sell your property and once the auction starts all the properties left in the auction will be sold.

SPEAKER_00 35:53

Yeah. So we get in the county clerk's office we get a rush of customers that start coming in around that time too but a lot of them are folks that are interested in properties that might be on the auction block. So they come in to do some research about land records and ownership and all that kind of stuff. How do people know what properties are are going to auction and you know if people are interested in in being a bidder at your auction what should they know?

SPEAKER_01 36:22

Sure. So we work on what we call the land list and that's the the properties that are going to auction. We do a title search through a title company and then we try to do gap checks but at the end of the day you're right those people that are bidding need to take that into their own hands and do their own research and make sure they know what they're bidding on. I've had people bid on empty lots that they thought a house was on and paid a lot more money than what they thought it should have been worth without that house because they didn't do their research. And so we always tell everyone it's a buyer beware, as is where is what's ever on that property on the day of sale is what we're selling. And so if you don't know what exactly what that is, I encourage you not to bid. So but a lot of people can come in and get a lot of that past information out of your office on landowners and what liens are filed and all that kind of stuff. But at the end of the day we we try to be as open and transparent on what we know there are health authority um Oklahoma Healthcare authority liens before we weren't able to discharge those, but now there's a new law as long as the governor signs it's gone through the legislative process. If the governor signs it then we can ask to have those liens removed and that'll that'll help sell those properties before it was kind of a cloud that we weren't able to erase on that title was these health care authority liens. And now I can request as the treasurer if it goes through the sale to remove those liens and that that gives that property a fresh start. One thing I really love about it is when we sell these properties, the new owners almost always pay the taxes on them. And so you know that that keeps them operating and functioning as we intend them to and keeps the property taxes base spread out amongst all the property owners.

SPEAKER_00 38:21

So for anybody who's interested in participating in that auction our advice here is do your research both online and if you see a piece of property you think you want to bid on, go actually look at it. Because there have been instances like you mentioned where folks will do some research online they might get on Zillow they might get on another real estate related website they may come get on our county assessors page which the county assessors page has photos usually associated with every piece of property and there have been times when someone thought they were bidding on a property with improvements such as a house a barn other structures on it and then they make the winning bid and go out and see their property and see that there are no structures on that property. And so um that's something to make sure you consider if you're gonna be part of that auction. And John and I even talked before we may here in a couple weeks do another uh episode podcast episode to talk a little bit more about the um about the real estate auction just as a reminder for folks so that's something to consider.

SPEAKER_01 39:30

Yeah the the the general idea is you know make sure you know exactly what you're bidding on. The we've had people before that there was an empty lot and it was just a a a little sliver of a lot in between two houses. And so one guy thought he was bidding on one house another guy thought he was bidding on another house and they were both really bidden on an empty strip of of land in between two houses and you know they weren't they weren't aware actually what they were bidding on. And it was unfortunate because I had to take the winning bid and and you know that guy was not happy uh when he found out there was no house on the strip of land he was bidding on.

SPEAKER_00 40:07

Yeah yeah so be careful about that. So let's switch to another uh deal as we kind of start to wrap up here. So one of the things I wanted to do with the Government Mule podcast is um you know talk about I I I joke that I'm kind of government mule you know we're we're we're elected 24-7. Um we both I know in both of our cases field phone calls emails all that kind of stuff at all times. So um we uh we we work like an old school government mule used to work. Um but John has a a really interesting background and we've known each other for a long time um we met originally I guess it would have been in about 2005 or so is that when you went to work for the city yeah so um I worked for uh mayor Bill LaFortune when he was mayor of the city of Tulsa back between oh two and oh six um John and I met when he started working for the city council but John's path to government service is pretty interesting um and it can be a long story but you can give us maybe the Cliff's notes version of how you even came into government service. Sure.

SPEAKER_01 41:11

So you know I had no intention of working for the government I actually worked in a lumber yard for quite some time out of high school and during college and got a job from that lumberyard to work overseas for a year and a half in Kosovo as a contractor a Department of Defense contractor through a a contractor that worked for the Army. And at that time I had no idea exactly what I was getting into but um the U.S. Army uh starting under President Clinton became what's called a fighting force only and so they don't do any of their um they don't wash their clothes or cook their food or uh build their houses or take care of their maintenance or anything like that. They have contractors do that. And so that's what I was hired to do in Kosovo. Worked over there for 18 months and you know had a great time came back home girl I was dating I got interested in her and decided I wanted to marry her and and uh asked her if I uh could go work overseas for another year. Uh got a job in in Iraq doing the same thing working for the Army uh during 2004 and uh did that for a year and really enjoyed that that time it was uh a little hairy there for a while um but you know having service I don't know it got to me. Uh came back home started uh working for a friend of mine at his business uh didn't really have any kind of career goals at that point in that business but just something to fill my time and got a call from my sister-in-law who worked over at the city council office and said hey they're they're hiring you for a council aide and I had done debate in high school and college and so policy was always kind of something of uh an interest of mine and so it sounded interesting. Uh it was through a temp service so I I wasn't you know guaranteed a job or anything like that. So went through the temp service, got the job and you know hired on full time and stayed there for 12 years. And you know if you would ask me probably a year before that if I would ever work for the government, I probably would have laughed at you. You know the I think the bigger that the government is, the more bureaucracy and the more headache and frustration and hassle. And so I went from the federal government to a local government and you know local government I think is where it's at and that's where the the rubber meets the road. Close to the people. That's where you make the most impact on somebody's life. I tell everybody that you know the impacts of government decisions on your life about 90 percent of them happen at the local level you know a little bit at the state and even fewer at the federal that actually impact your life on a day to day you know when you walk out to your door And hit that road, that road's taken care of at a local level. When you turn on your water every day to get a glass of water, to brush your teeth, or take a shower, that's done at the local level. That trash can that's outside that gets relieved every week, that's done on the local level, right? And if those things break down, well, you got a lot of things to worry about besides what the interest rate is at at your bank.

SPEAKER_00 44:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:22

Um, so so you know, we I think make that impact, and that really hit me um when I worked at the city council, how much of an impact you know we have at a at a local government level. And it really got me into service. Uh I I always say that Genie Q was my um my role model. Counselor Jeannie Q in um in District 2. When she got elected, it didn't matter what she was working on. She did it with all of her heart, um, all of her soul, and did it because she loved the people of her district. And I got to see that firsthand, and it really flipped me around, changed my perspective on what government can and should be to people. And so uh the rest of they say is history.

SPEAKER_00 45:05

Yeah. I mean, John worked for Genie for pretty much most of the time she was in office until the last few years when you were working here. But um but that also um maybe prompted or got you more involved in your own community. You're a proud resident of the city of Sand Springs, um, where um I mean John's done some incredible things not related to um county or city government, and a couple of those things are his kids. He has two phenomenal boys that are um both in Boy Scouts and um very high achievers and um doing some awesome things. But um that also led you to really serve your local community as well when you were um elected to the city council, right?

SPEAKER_01 45:51

Yeah. So, you know, I worked for the Tulsa City Council and um I got called by one of the city councilors in Sand Springs one day about a Board of Adjustment position that uh was open and wanted to know if I would serve. Well, I'd recorded a hundred Board of Adjustment meetings for TGov on the city council staff, and so that interested me. I knew you know how the board worked and what they were talking about and everything. So yeah, I said, sure, sign me up. And that was, you know, a volunteer thing. And so um, after about a year of that, I get the call from that same city counselor, said, Your city counselor is gonna be moving. He accepted a job out of state, and once he sells his house, he's gonna move. Would you want to be appointed? And I thought about it for a minute, said, sure, that that sounds like a great idea. He said, Well, you know, we don't know exactly when that's gonna be, so just hang tight. And so get a call a couple months later and said, hey, he's moving, but we decided that um since it's so close to the end of his term, we'll just go ahead and call a special election and fill that position. Would you be interested in running? And I said, uh, let me think about it. So talked to my wife, went home, slept on it, and prayed on it, and decided that's where I needed to go. And so uh called him back and said, Yeah, I think I will. He said, Great, I got two other people interested in running too. And, you know, little little bonoced to me, one of them was a former state senator, and another one was uh a youth pastor in the community, and so I didn't think I had any chance at all, but I went and knocked uh at all the doors that I could in that district and ended up getting elected as city councilor uh for San Springs and and uh my ward and ended up becoming the vice mayor of San Springs until I had to give it all up to come to the county.

SPEAKER_00 47:36

Yeah, yeah. So I guess it would have been in um well, 2016 is when I got elected. December of 2016 is when I I resigned from the city council. Yeah, and so um I I was a chief deputy county commissioner here. I got elected, started as county clerk. John took my old spot as the uh chief deputy um for a few years and then moved over to the treasurer's office to be chief deputy there and had the opportunity to to um kind of take over that office and then run for office and was was uh successful. So um what else you want to add? Anything else we want to talk about, John, before we wrap up this episode?

SPEAKER_01 48:12

I just want to say what a great job you've done with this uh studio. Um, you know, getting our story out, I think it's important. And that, you know, again, we are the closest to the people, and I think we're the least known uh as far as government on what we do and how we do it. And so I I appreciate you putting this together and allowing us to tell our story to Tulsa County and and hopefully to the world. Um and we'll uh I look forward to doing a lot more of these.

SPEAKER_00 48:39

Yeah, that's gonna be fun. We'll wrap up this episode of the Government Mule podcast. Special thanks to Treasurer John Folly for being uh the guest for episode number three. Thank you. Like you said, we'll do this again. Thanks very much.