Ep 4 Facebook Sperm

In this episode, “Facebook Sperm,” Helen takes us into a world most people don’t even realise exists, where sperm donation is being arranged online, in plain sight, through social media and private groups.

It’s happening right now, closer than you think - maybe even up the road from where you live. 

We explore this modern, unregulated side of donation: the risks, the realities, and the questions no one’s really asking.

And as if that wasn’t enough, we also dive into a recent news story that’s hard to believe: a fertility clinic in Cyprus mixing up donations between families…not just once or twice, but seven times (and counting). 

Expect shock, disbelief, and a few moments where you’ll be asking, how is this even allowed?

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Transcript

Intro

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Doobida ba ba ba-da ba ba ba ba do-bi-da ba ba ba spam sisters This is a story about sisters.

SPEAKER_00 0:19

Just not the kind that you're expecting. Three years ago we were strangers, living separate lives.

SPEAKER_01 0:25

Now we know we're biological sisters connected by the same sperm donor. And that's just the beginning. This podcast dives headfirst into the how, the why, and the uncomfortable questions no one seems to want to answer. Uncovering secrets the medical world would rather keep buried.

SPEAKER_00 0:42

How many donor-conceived people are there really? No one can give a straight answer. Not the clinics, not the system, no one.

SPEAKER_01 0:50

So, how many siblings could be walking past us every day without a clue? It's messy, it's shocking. At times it's almost impossible to believe.

SPEAKER_00 0:59

And somehow, it's also really funny.

SPEAKER_01 1:02

Come with us as we dig deeper, ask the uncomfortable questions, and laugh our way through the chaos of discovering who we really are. And just how many of us there might be. Coming up on this week's episode of Sperm Sisters. We chat about the news story everyone's been sharing with us.

SPEAKER_00 1:24

There are at least seven children in the UK who have been born from that clinic that are not the products of the sperm or eggs that they were, that the parents were promised that they would have been.

SPEAKER_01 1:38

Helen tells us where to buy sperm online.

SPEAKER_00 1:41

One of them is so hideous, I must say what it's called. And it's pretty horrific.

SPEAKER_01 1:54

Have you choking on with the episode? We are back for episode four. But for those observant viewers, if anyone even watches this, do you know anyone who watches this? I do. Yeah, I do too. I think quite well, I don't want to sat in the cadet everyone. I think quite a few people are. Well, well, for those for those observant ones, we are sat in Manley's house. She's not here. She's not here.

SPEAKER_00 2:28

She's at my

Mandy's House

SPEAKER_00 2:29

house.

SPEAKER_01 2:30

You told her.

SPEAKER_00 2:32

We said, get out.

SPEAKER_01 2:34

We need to use your house, please. Your house is the cleanest, mum, out of all of our houses. In all honesty, Nat has like you have pulled an absolute blinder because we were going to be filming at yours today. But being, you know, parents, young kids, and all of that, so Nat has offered incredibly kindly to whiz over here halfway across the M25. Auntie Nat was here. Pleasure to be here, ladies. So episode four. Yeah. Yeah. This is a thing we're doing now. We're now doing a podcast about how we're donor conceived. The fact that we met you just a mere few years ago. And I was sat, I just said to the girls as we came, as I came in the door earlier, as I was saying, like, what is so beautiful about doing this podcast and learning as we're going is actually for me the beauty of it all is that I'm getting to know you both. And I feel like even from the last few episodes that we've recorded, yeah, I mean we're harsh and we so it's cute.

That's Cute

SPEAKER_01 3:44

It's cute. But you know, it's my I'm so thrilled that we're doing this all together. Yeah, I just think it's really special. So there you have it. Should we remind people who we are?

SPEAKER_00 3:57

Yes. Youngest first. Sure. I'm Helen. I am the youngest, as we've said, that we know of. There's obviously going to be other younger ones, but for now I do hold that crown. Cool. And I'm Gemma, I'm the middle one.

SPEAKER_01 4:13

Only just the middle one. Yeah. By a mere whisper of a week or two. And I'm the eldest, but I think you're the mother hen of the group. What's your name? Oh, sorry. My name's Natasha. I was going by Nat, or Tasha, or Tushfa. What's Tushpa? Tushfa. Tushfa came around, I would say, like 10, 11 years ago. It was like a university thing.

SPEAKER_00 4:44

I like that.

SPEAKER_01 4:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:45

Listen, guys. I'm gonna lead this

Investigative Journalism

SPEAKER_00 4:49

one. And I'm excited. I'm excited. I've tried my hand at some investigative journalism. Quite a few of our listeners slash friends sent us DMs about a news story that recently broke. And I think it's something that we should probably broach because it is very relevant to us all. Yeah. Hot off the press. It's hot off the press. So the news story that recently broke uh came out at the end of March this year. It's bad. The BBC headline read wrong sperm given to UK families by IVF clinics in Northern Cyprus.

The Report

SPEAKER_00 5:29

That's no good, is it? It's no good now. So what's essentially happened here is any British people looking for fertility treatment. At the moment, Northern Cyprus is the most popular place to go because that territory is actually legally run by Turkey, which means that there's there's no European Union uh legalities that they actually have to follow. So because of that, it's like a loophole. It's a little loophole, it's um exceptionally cheaper than doing it in the UK and they promise great results. Of course they do. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:09

I would actually be um really interested to find out how much it actually costs to do in the UK compared to Turkey. Yeah, let's let's do an episode on the pricing of it. I think that would be great. Because it is a business.

SPEAKER_00 6:24

It is a business, but obviously that's why this clinic was so popular because it's um loosely regulated but promises cheap um fertility treatment with high success rates. In turn, then we've now had this new uh development where there are at least seven children in the UK who have been born from that clinic that are not the sperm products of the sperm or eggs that they were that the parents were promised that they would have been. So seven children living in the UK right now that we know of, because this is dating back to a decade ago, and it's the parents have done commercial DNA tests because they had doubts.

SPEAKER_01 7:14

There wasn't it something like um she she knew by like looking at her child's eyes or something? No, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 7:21

Yeah, because basically I it was the same-sex couple, each of them uh used one of their eggs to carry a pregnancy, but they were very specific that they wanted the exact same sperm donor for both children. Yes. So they noticed it first with their boy who was born second, he had brown eyes, they've stipulated beautiful brown eyes. Yeah, of course. But um they I think they're both like very blue-eyed. So it just didn't make sense. So they doubted it. So 10 years later, they've done a test and it's confirmed that he is not from the sperm donor they expected. So they've done the same tests on their daughter, she's not from the same sperm donor they expected. So those children aren't even. So they're not even oh my goodness, me.

SPEAKER_01 8:09

For me, like this is obviously horrendous for the

Think of the Children

SPEAKER_01 8:15

parents of these children, and I think it's really important that they've brought this to the attention of like mainstream media. But my heart also does actually see it with the children, knowing that I mean, I don't obviously I don't know whether or not like they knew that they were donor-conceived anyway. I'm sure they were gonna find out it's so they did, but like it's um, yeah, it's difficult, it's gonna be really difficult for the children, knowing that like almost I don't want to say the wrong thing, that like the parents were disappointed with this. I want to be eloquent in the way I'm trying to explain, you know, but um you know that's they were they're obviously not disappointed in their children in the slightest. Yes. They're disappointed in the system that let them down. Which is what they're bringing to the attention of the media. Yeah, is a system that has continuously let people down, despite having the laws and regulations that we have now. This isn't a game. It's not a game, it's people's lives.

SPEAKER_00 9:18

Arguably. Just flame devil's advocate here, okay, maybe slightly risky, that's not part of the EU, and that's why the issues happened, because it's gone for but how do they know that it's not happening in the EU? Yeah, true. It could still be happening here, you don't know. It's still giving 80s Wild West fertility treatment, isn't it? So has that ever actu, despite all the regulations that have come into place, has that ever actually sorted it?

SPEAKER_01 9:49

Because sorry, going back to the I'm really sorry if you touched on this later on when your notes and things that you want to talk about. Um but thinking about the EU laws and regulations that we have now, obviously in the UK, one sperm donor to 10 families, but

The Rules

SPEAKER_01 10:09

that but they can buy the sperm in from a sperm bank in Sweden or somewhere like that, but then another country can go to the same sperm bank from the same donor and they'll have different rules. So then an Italian family can then have the same donor, but their rules are that one donor can have, you know, can go to 12 families. So in total now in the UK and Italy, that's 22 families that have that same sperm donor.

SPEAKER_00 10:37

Girls, let me ask you a question because I'm now an investigative journalist. All right. Who's to actually blame here? The clinic, the system, or just a massive how did this even happen moment? The clinic, the clinic.

SPEAKER_01 10:53

Yes. 100% the clinic. Yes. Like, you know, the system. I don't quite know what you mean by that.

SPEAKER_00 11:01

I guess I mean the system of uh sourcing sperm elsewhere. No.

SPEAKER_01 11:07

Well, well, I mean, that's got something to do with it, but ultimately this the primary the primary people at fault here are those who are running this clinic.

SPEAKER_00 11:16

Yeah. Yes. That's a unanimous agreement, I think, there. Pretty sure.

SPEAKER_01 11:22

I was like the sister for doing that thing where I'm like, have you seen the film Inside Out? Yeah. And it's the film with all of the emotions and all of the little Pixar, like flames and stuff. I'm the little angry red one.

Little Angry Red Man

SPEAKER_01 11:38

My one is like someone just think of the children, you know. It's just it's someone who's financially profiting off it. Yeah. I mean, ultimately, there needs to be like law and legislation in place across, you know, international. Yes, that's it. That's it. It needs to be international law in relation to any of this stuff.

SPEAKER_00 12:06

People shouldn't be penalized for trying to start a family. No. So particularly if if you're looking at the fact of a same-sex couple has no option but to find sperm elsewhere. So the it's so outrageously expensive if you go down the official channels in

It's Well Expensive

SPEAKER_00 12:25

this country. Yes, everything's going to be completely regulated, but some people don't have the funds to do that if they've been trying for years. They're opting to go for cheap, cheap, cheap, which is now they have found themselves in that situation. Yeah. Do we think then from that that there's a different world that maybe we need to explore? If suddenly a door closes, you've been priced out of somewhere. What would you do if you needed to get some sperm?

What Would You Do If You Needed Sperm?

SPEAKER_01 12:58

May I? Yeah. Not to sound too like, are you gonna be a millionaire thing? But like, I'd call a friend. Phone a friend. Yeah. I would. So you're gonna I know some very eligible gentlemen who I would happily ask for their donation. Think they'd say yeah. I think this did all two good jobs. Oh shit, no to me. Um, well, comment in the section, make some comments about this. But I think it would be really interesting to actually hear from the guys who are listening to this. You don't have to be my mate, but like, you know, if you're just like any any guy listening to this, it would actually be really interesting to hear like if you were to do that, would you want to then have a relationship with the child from like a biological father's perspective? Don't you think?

SPEAKER_00 14:01

I think we should hear from them. I would love to. Guys, obviously, I welcome anybody saying they would happily willy-nilly give people sperm. Willy-nilly! But do you know what, ladies? You might not need to even worry about that. Where are we going for the sperm? AI. What? I have done some investigative journalism via Facebook. Oh, here come the facts. It's gotta be true. It's gotta be real life. It actually is. My point was if you can't afford treatment full stop medically, what would you do? A lot of people, it seems in the UK, are turning to Facebook to find their sperm. Do you want to know a message that I've found and read? It's on a public it's some public forum. This isn't

On a Public Forum

SPEAKER_00 14:59

my. What is the public forum?

SPEAKER_01 15:00

That's what I want to know.

SPEAKER_00 15:01

Do you want to know some of the group names? Yeah. See, I feel conflicted here because I don't want to promote the group names, but equally, there's they're one of them is so hideous, I must say what it's called.

SPEAKER_01 15:16

Do the hideous one and then we'll we'll decide whether or not to do the rest.

SPEAKER_00 15:20

Okay. Get your baby dust here.

SPEAKER_01 15:31

Are you joking? Sorry, no, this is where I'm gonna be. Sorry. Okay, do you not feel as though maybe that group is just like a guy being like, I'm here for free fucks?

SPEAKER_00 15:45

Gonna get into that.

SPEAKER_01 15:46

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 15:47

No, yeah, so Gemma's

Here for Free F***s

SPEAKER_00 15:49

already on it. I'm gonna get sorry. Get your baby dust here.

SPEAKER_01 15:52

Get your bibliose. That's vile.

SPEAKER_00 15:55

Can you imagine if you were in bed with someone and they were like, my partner was like, I can't even.

SPEAKER_01 16:02

I can't even. Would you like some baby dust? No. In a way, like maybe. You know, maybe they're trying to make it feel less serious and yet less heavy and more of a like, you know, some people think of like, you know, pretty fairy dust.

SPEAKER_00 16:22

But it sounds it sounds sinister to me. Baby dust. Get your baby dust here. Do you want to know what sort of stuff gets said on these groups? Yeah. Alright. Trigger warning for anyone who will find this upsetting. Ovulating tonight slash tomorrow

Ovulating Tonight

SPEAKER_00 16:39

morning. So I've managed to find a donor in time. Dot dot dot. The first one let me down. Dot dot dot. So I managed to find what I thought was a decent guy. For him to arrange to meet and then completely ignored all messages. Dot dot dot. I don't know how I found a third donor in time, but I did. Dot dot dot. For him to take travel expenses and not even turn up. Dot dot dot. You can't make this up. Exclamation mark, exclamation mark. Be careful, guys. And I would suggest having five backups. Because dot dot dot. What the heck? No! Just so bleak and horrifying. This is happening now. Oh right.

SPEAKER_01 17:28

Let's be honest. We've got to be sensitive here and we've got to be careful because we don't know the other avenues that that woman has been down. What other avenues? Obviously, you know, questionably, finding a donor on Facebook Marketplace isn't something I would do. I'm not sure you would do it. Go on vintage. No. Well, second hand. Spicy. I mean, you could you could

You Could Try Ebay

SPEAKER_01 18:02

actually go on eBay and do it.

SPEAKER_00 18:05

No, you can't because legally you cannot be compensated for donating. Uh well, uh she's compensating these people. I'm doing travel expenses. She's just said. Yeah, you can claim something within a reasonable uh you can you can be compensated only for legitimate costs, i.e., travel expenses. So that will be how some people are being paid. So because of obviously, sorry, you guys literally look like you're about to cry or just, you know, smash your face against the brick wall.

SPEAKER_01 18:37

Well oh, yeah. Because, as you say, Matt, you're right, we don't know the people's circumstances, but I don't really give a shit about them because I'm thinking of the nine months' time and the kids that are gonna be walking around on this earth, and it's just not fair, it's just not fair.

SPEAKER_00 18:57

Right, yeah, I and I don't disagree in any way. The Guardian also doesn't disagree with you because they have started investigating and bringing it to Facebook's attention to obviously say this is horrific and needs to be sorted. Uh the Guardian article also quoted that there are lengthly delays in the UK fertility clinics anyway, and shortages in UK sperm banks. Yes, I've also read that. Yeah, so it might not also just be financial, it could be that your market's hitting. Probably because you're limited to be financially compensated, there's not as much of a drive anymore with it. And also you can't be anonymous. Yeah, it's a big one. Yeah, that's a bummer in the eyes of the donor, I would say. Well, I don't know. Depends on the reasons. Yeah. Um also there is a real shortage of donors from uh certain religious backgrounds or ethnicities.

SPEAKER_01 19:58

That's interesting. That's really interesting.

SPEAKER_00 19:59

So that's forcing unregulated means too. And as we've already covered, selling for profit is illegal in the UK, but they can be compensated for legitimate costs. So, which is just travel expenses, is that legitimate? No. Like the type of people who are on these groups donating are let's just have it right, gonna be unsavory

Unsavoury Characters

SPEAKER_00 20:21

characters, aren't they?

SPEAKER_01 20:23

I wouldn't Yeah, I wouldn't want to bring one home and introduce them to Mandy.

SPEAKER_00 20:30

Yeah. No, exactly. And it's obviously opening up the recipients to a whole world of risks when nothing is being regulated. Who you invite your address.

unknown 20:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:42

Um there's been reports of same-sex couples uh obviously requiring a donation, and the man comes to the house and he refused to give them the sperm until both of them showed them their breasts. What? Yeah, so it's just like a recipe for sexual assault anyway. There's been men turning up saying, I'm here to give the donation, and then refusing to do the donation, obviously under private means, and wanting to do it manually or saying to women, um, you'll have a better success rate if we actually do it naturally. So a bit coercive, isn't it? Basically, very bleak. Yeah. Should I get bleaker?

SPEAKER_01 21:29

Well, I don't think we can go in that.

SPEAKER_00 21:33

Most horrifyingly, a man named James McDougall was named by a family court judge in 2022 after donating sperm on one of these groups, knowing that he was a carrier of a genetic condition, fragile X syndrome, which caused a wide range of problems, including learning disabilities and cognitive impairments in children. This James guy, James? James McDougall. Down for that. Well, it just said he was named by a family court judge. I bel I think he probably was uh penalised, but you're smiling because penalising it.

SPEAKER_01 22:18

I mean, look, it's not one for the highlight, real, is it this episode? But it is an important conversation to have because it just shows that actually it's not any better. And I hope that in 30 years' time there's not gonna be another batch of siblings who are all gonna be saying, Oh, hey, we've just found out that we're all donor conceived, and let's all get together and do a podcast. Because by then, podcasts probably won't even be a thing, so I don't know what they're gonna do. But you know, it's just such a shame that we just never learn, we never learn, and there's just not enough policing in it because I don't think enough people talk about being donor conceived or the fact that donor conceived people are in the world and you know they're walking past you on the streets and you're having kids with them, like everyone needs to know about it.

SPEAKER_00 23:09

Okay, so before we all go and have a quiet sit-down, is there anything about this topic that hasn't completely and utterly ruined your entire week?

SPEAKER_01 23:23

I would love to know how much these fertility clinics are charging couples and how much things are because imagine if in a world people didn't have to pay for fertility treatment and for sperm donation. Imagine if these high-end clinics actually didn't charge. Would you get these Facebook groups as much? Probably not. Probably not, no. No. Do you know how much your mum and dad paid?

Ruined Your Week Yet?

SPEAKER_01 23:57

Yeah, back then the equivalent cost was £130,000 to have me. I just can't imagine that my parents would have had the m that sort of money to pay f for this treatment. So I do wonder, it would just be interesting to find out, and I will ask him if their treatment was in fact free.

SPEAKER_00 24:20

Uh back then I don't think anybody would have received it free because it was a really new thing.

SPEAKER_01 24:26

And also, but in all fairness, like your mum and dad's story is different to mine. Um, no, they just tried they tried different apps.

SPEAKER_00 24:35

They they changed doctors as uh as well. If anyone actually wants to really know about that, we have an episode called Mandy's story, which gives it all the background that you've seen.

SPEAKER_01 24:48

Yeah, and that's a really important episode. You have in fact you have to listen to that. You have to, yeah, you don't have a choice. It's tricky to know how to summarise this episode, really, isn't it? Because I think maybe we should get t-shirts that say if you don't laugh, you'll cry. I also think um, just a quick big up to the Guardian as well as the BBC um for bringing this to mainstream media. Yeah. Yeah. Fair play. Because that is fantastic. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:19

And big up to me. Up becoming an investigative journalist. That was my journal crown. Happy Easter. Happy Easter. Happy Easter.