Ep 7 Red Flag Relatives

Red Flag Relatives |  The Risk of Accidental Incest 

What if the person you’re dating… was actually related to you?

In this episode, we dive into one of the most uncomfortable - and very real - conversations around donor conception: the risk of unknowingly forming relationships with biological siblings.

We explore just how close donor-conceived people can come to crossing that line, and share a real-life story that brings the severity of this issue into sharp focus.

Natasha is joined by her fiancé James ahead of their wedding for a very important conversation - using DNA testing to double check they’re not more connected than they thought.

We also cover:

•  Donor conception and sibling discovery 
•  The risks of accidental incest in donor-conceived communities 
•  Why DNA testing matters before relationships get serious 
•  Real experiences from donor-conceived siblings 
•  A very chaotic game of “Date, DNA Test or Ditch”

Recorded remotely this time (thanks to Helen having the lurgy), but the chaos is very much still intact.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:05

Sisters.

SPEAKER_02 0:17

This is a story about sisters. Just not the kind that you're expecting. Three years ago, we were strangers, living separate lives.

SPEAKER_03 0:25

Now we know we're biological sisters, connected by the same sperm donor. And that's just the beginning.

SPEAKER_04 0:32

This podcast dives headfirst into the how, the why, and the uncomfortable questions no one seems to want to answer.

SPEAKER_03 0:38

Uncovering secrets the medical world would rather keep buried.

SPEAKER_02 0:42

How many donor-conceived people are there really? No one can give a straight answer. Not the clinics, not the system, no one.

SPEAKER_03 0:50

So, how many siblings could be walking past us every day without a clue? It's messy, it's shocking. At times it's almost impossible to believe. And somehow, it's also really funny.

SPEAKER_04 1:02

Come with us as we dig deeper, ask the uncomfortable questions, and laugh our way through the chaos of discovering who we really are, and just how many of us there might be.

SPEAKER_03 1:12

Coming up on this week's episode of Spanish. We're recording remotely today. Helen has the Lurgy, but it hasn't stopped her giving us some astonishing sibling hookup stories.

SPEAKER_02 1:28

Sometimes being attracted to a sibling. Isn't that rare?

SPEAKER_03 1:34

So we meet Natasha's fiance James and double check he's not our brother.

SPEAKER_01 1:42

It's bringing up all sorts of questions, obviously, but I'm pretty sure I'm under the son of my mum and dad and And you're not, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:50

Don't know. Yeah, but you don't a hundred million percent know that.

SPEAKER_00 1:56

Nah, come on, I know.

SPEAKER_03 1:59

Feeling ready, let's begin the show. Shall we say who each of us are? Yes. You should Is that Oh, me, the middle one. The Middle Sister, Gemma. Hello. I'm recording from my art studio. So I'm very sorry if you hear any background noise, but like it's it's been a thing in this studio. Just the noise, and I'm trying to be all serene and creative and stuff, and then I hear from next door, or there's like an angry motorbike. So apologize if there is any background noise, tis me. I apologize. Hi, my name's Gemma, and I'm having an anxiety attack. That's good. We keep it honest here, don't we? That's the one to use.

SPEAKER_02 2:48

Well, hello, I'm Helen. I'm the youngest sister, and today I look like a mixture of a gamer and a Britney impersonator, my fave gal. Because I've got Jack's gaming headset on. I've never felt more attracted in my life. So also, my ears are so hot. Why? I have no idea. And I feel like I'm shouting.

SPEAKER_03 3:16

And I what episode is this? Well, hang on, Nat didn't we don't know who Nat is. Elder sister, tell us who thy be.

SPEAKER_04 3:24

Hello, everybody. I'm Natasha and I'm in Essex, and you might recognise the background because this is where we recorded our first couple of episodes before we moved over to where did I drive to?

SPEAKER_03 3:40

Crothorne. Yeah, it's a horrible name, isn't it? But where is that?

SPEAKER_04 3:47

Berkshire.

SPEAKER_03 3:48

Berkshire. Berkshire? Do you ever do that? Okay, the house and I used to play this game when we were little and we'd be driving along somewhere. And you'd have to say the name of a place in England, but in an American accent. And because obviously you know, like Americans don't usually get it right. Like Shire, like that kind of thing. We used to say the game. Americans and that. Yeah. So like if you had to say Staffordshire, we how else do it? Staffordshire. Staffordshire. So yeah, that's basically that that's our game.

SPEAKER_02 4:30

Hello, everybody, and welcome to episode seven. Yep, yep, yep. So the girls don't really know what's coming up for them today. And I'm just gonna launch straight in. So, okay, I need to ask you something, and I want you to answer honestly. Would you actually know if you were flirting with your sibling? Because I think most of us want to say yes. Like, of course, I'd know there'd be signs, vibes, some kind of internal alarm going off. But what if there isn't? What if it's just a really good date? Good chat, same sense of humor, weirdly similar face structure. Fine. Ignore that. Everything just clicks. And you walk away thinking, wow, I've finally met someone I really connect with. And the only plot twist is you might also share a biological parent.

SPEAKER_03 5:29

Oh that's the episode. Oh my god. All right, we're doing this. This is always gonna happen.

SPEAKER_04 5:39

It might have might have happened.

SPEAKER_02 5:40

It could still be a various thing. Yes. It could still happen. But this is why I think it's important for us to do. Obviously, I'm gonna try as much as I can to come from a light-hearted angle, but I do want to do like a slight trigger warning that some stuff that I've uncovered from my investigative journalism is rather dark. When you first start dating, you can try and cast your minds back to when you met. In fact, actually, Nat, when you met James, you oh no, you would have known you were donor conceived then. I did. And you didn't have any concerns that you were brother and sister, no?

SPEAKER_04 6:27

No.

SPEAKER_02 6:28

Not until now. So Gemma, you didn't know that you were donor conceived when you met Leon though, did you?

SPEAKER_03 6:38

No, I didn't. I met my husband in 2016. We got married in 2018, which is also the year that I found out. So I mean, I thought, to be honest, at that point, I'd already like slept with him. It is what it is.

SPEAKER_02 6:58

It is a bit late when that happens.

SPEAKER_03 7:01

What about you and Jack? Oh, he's my brother.

SPEAKER_02 7:06

I knew I loved him. No, I did know I was donor conceived when I met Jack, but I I I don't think we look alike at all, and uh it was not a concern for me. But I guess that does just I'm going off on the fact that maybe you look alike. Go on.

SPEAKER_03 7:27

I just remembered a story. I don't know whether it's a good time to tell it now or like you might touch on it like later or something, but I'll just say it now, just in case. So we have Leon and I have two children. And when we went in to have our first baby, it was a bit of an emergency situation, so we had like a private room and stuff, whatever. It's all good now. What I remember one of the midwives came in and she noticed that it was just me in the room because Leon had popped out to go to the loo or to get something to eat or something, and then she came in and she was like, Oh, I was just gonna give you some test results and stuff, but I'll just wait for your brother to come back. I mean your husband to come back. And I was thinking, yeah, oh my god, I'm about to give birth to an inbred. What is this? She actually said that, and I was thinking, oh my Jesus Christ, they must have gone back to their staff room. Yeah. Good old little chat and been like, those two look related, don't they? And then Leon came back in from having a wee or something, and I just looked at him and I was like, Yeah, we do look related.

SPEAKER_02 8:44

Thankfully, you already had both your individual ancestry test results by then, so could confirm.

SPEAKER_03 8:52

I did, yeah. So Leon had already done an ancestry DNA test for his own fertility questions. So we knew that we weren't related. But it was just the whole point of like walking back into the room and being like, maybe we should double check that we're not on like the second or third cousin list.

SPEAKER_02 9:10

This is the issue, though, isn't it? Because for most people, when they're dating, they're looking out for just usual red flags. So bad communication, commitment issues, someone still texting their ex, all the normal stuff. And then there's this whole other category that no one really prepares you for if you're donor conceived, which is am I accidentally related to this person? And the thing is, it's not even that far-fetched anymore at all. So with things like 23andMe in Ancestry DNA, people are finding out all kinds of things about their biological families, sometimes years after the fact, and sometimes at the worst possible moment. So today, what I want to talk about is that very specific, slightly weird question, but very real question. How do you date when you don't fully know who you're related to? So we'll be going into like near misses, irrational fears that you might not actually be that irrational at all, and whether you can actually ever tell, or if you just have to hope for the best. And at what point, if ever, it becomes acceptable to ask someone the least romantic question imaginable. Hey, just a quick one. Who's your donor?

SPEAKER_04 10:31

Who's your daddy?

SPEAKER_02 10:33

Let me open this up a bit. Okay. Would you do you think you would ever actually be able to tell? So forget the fact that obviously, Gemma, you're married, Nat, you're soon to be married, and I d have a baby and a mortgage with a man. So forget all of that. Pretend we're all single Pringles for this one. Do you think we would you would ever be able to tell if you accidentally were related to someone on a date?

SPEAKER_03 11:05

Not ego, sorry.

SPEAKER_04 11:07

I feel like, yeah. But I would caveat that with that's just the sort of person I am on a first date. I'm um you two know I'm like the biggest overshower in on the planet. So I think I've always gone into first date, just like word vomiting about everything in my life, and ultimately uh do end up talking about my family. Yeah. But I'm trying to think back to when I first met James, and I'm trying to think about like our first date. And I don't think I mentioned the fact that I was donor conceived on the date. So I guess it's about like where you are in life as to whether or not it might crop up. I mean, like, not thinking about oh, do I look like him? I mean, I think James and I do look fairly similar sometimes.

SPEAKER_02 12:02

Yeah, I do as well. Great.

SPEAKER_00 12:08

Good to know.

SPEAKER_03 12:09

Well, it's fine. I mean, if you wanna if you guys are related, then you would be like third cousins, which is fine.

SPEAKER_02 12:19

Do you want to get James in and see if he wanted to get share his thoughts of how he would feel?

SPEAKER_04 12:28

What if it if Oh my god, you want to share his share his thoughts on bring him down and bring him in? Bring him in he's really nervous. Oh my god, you are related to us. Hello. I haven't told him. I haven't told him. Okay, what this is about. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 12:59

Hello, listeners.

SPEAKER_02 13:04

Right.

SPEAKER_01 13:05

Let me on to be here.

SPEAKER_03 13:07

Lovely to have you here. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 13:11

Do you want to introduce yourself?

SPEAKER_01 13:14

No.

unknown 13:17

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 13:18

James, let me just ask you a question then. We were just talking about this episode is like red flags or related.

unknown 13:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:26

And we were saying, do you think you would ever be able to tell if you're actually related to someone on a first date? And in our situations, both Gemma and Leon have done ancestry DNA tests. I've I've done one and Jack has done one as well. So we can categorically rule out we are not related to one another. But Nat has mentioned that you have not done an ancestry DNA test.

SPEAKER_01 13:56

No, I haven't, no. Um look, I mean, I'm pretty sure we're not related, but uh maybe we should how are you sure though? Um I think we are well, we look quite different.

SPEAKER_04 14:11

Well, no, Helen thinks we look the same. No, we don't look the same. Literally said a minute ago, you look the same.

SPEAKER_03 14:19

Um Helen's also a massive shit stirrer.

SPEAKER_01 14:22

So we I mean we also know, right? That you know it's bringing up all sorts of questions, obviously, but I'm pretty sure I'm I'm the the son of my mum and dad, and and you're not, right? So you don't know.

SPEAKER_02 14:36

Yeah, but you don't a hundred million percent know that.

SPEAKER_00 14:41

Nah, come on, I know I know.

SPEAKER_02 14:44

Having met your sisters, I would say it's guaranteed that yeah, yeah. Your parents to your parents, but you don't actually know. So the hypothetical question: pretend you've done an ancestry DNA test now, and you find out that you are brother and sister. Are you still going ahead with the wedding?

SPEAKER_01 15:04

No, I don't think so. I think we probably have to call that one off.

SPEAKER_03 15:08

What would you say to people? Bearing in mind, you're getting married in August. We're now recording this at the end of April.

SPEAKER_01 15:15

And we found out we were brother and sister.

SPEAKER_03 15:17

You've got four months. I'm guessing you've got some final payments to make, and you've got people of RSVP'd. This is your ancestry DNA DNA results come back. Natasha's on there. She's my second cousin. Oh.

SPEAKER_01 15:33

Second cousin. Now second cousin. No, I mean, I don't I don't think so. Um, what would I tell people? I mean, I'd like to think I'd just come out straight, yeah. Look, turns out Tasha's my second cousin, so the wedding's off. I suppose that would be easier, wouldn't it? Because no one would ask any questions.

SPEAKER_03 16:01

Uh, I would.

SPEAKER_01 16:04

If I'd gone, oh yeah, the wedding's off, we've had a falling out, everyone would be like, oh, what's happened? But if you just come out and say, Yeah, no, look, turns out she's my second cousin, so can't go ahead with it. I think they'd understand.

SPEAKER_04 16:15

I'd go ahead, I'd go ahead with the party. I just wouldn't marry you, and I'd be like, this is now a celebration that we're related.

SPEAKER_02 16:25

Oh my god, why does no one like that? What my main question is sorry, are you guys still doing it or that's that's what you'd ask at the wedding? That's what I'd want to ask. I don't think I'd ask that.

SPEAKER_01 16:41

Well, you would probably have to stop doing it. Very difficult.

SPEAKER_03 16:46

Do you know if anyone has helped, has found out that they are related and still gone ahead and got married?

SPEAKER_01 16:52

Do I know? No, Helen.

SPEAKER_03 16:54

No, do you?

SPEAKER_01 16:57

No, I don't.

SPEAKER_03 17:00

But I bet there probably are.

SPEAKER_02 17:02

There are a few things which I will delve into.

SPEAKER_01 17:07

Oh Louisa, do you want to stay? No, I think um uh I can I go.

SPEAKER_02 17:16

Please. Can I be can I be you may you may leave. But thank you. Thank you. Thank you, bro.

SPEAKER_00 17:23

Bye.

SPEAKER_02 17:24

Thanks, bro. So I think from obviously having James come on, we can establish then you're not related and the wedding is very much still going ahead, which is great.

unknown 17:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:37

Same questions to you, Nat. Right. James gets his ancestry results back. You guys are second cousins. Would you still fucking?

SPEAKER_04 17:47

No. One more time. And I just like make an ad of it just one more time, just for the road.

SPEAKER_03 17:57

Take it, take it to your grave, yeah, and then that's it, call it off, and then done.

SPEAKER_02 18:03

I know we've just been like joking about it, but there is actually a psychological study that proves via case studies and obviously a lot of academic research that sometimes being attracted to a sibling isn't that rare. So yeah, really weird. So basically, it's called the Westermark effect, and it suggests that people who grow up closely together in early childhood develop a kind of natural sexual desensitization to each other. So if you've grown up as brother and sister in the same household, you essentially like uh write someone off as definitely not a romantic option. Well, obviously, you can't say for 100% because the world is weird, but pretty much 100%, there's not going to be much incest going on. But there's a really important exception to this rule, and it's when siblings don't grow up together, things can be very different. So, in this Westermark theory, there's something called genetic sexual attraction. And this refers to cases where close biological relatives meet as adults in much later life without knowing that they're related, and they suddenly experience a strong attraction or emotional intensity. This can happen for a number of reasons. You might share physical traits, mannerisms, voice patterns, and that familiarity can feel like you are just clicking or like you've never felt this understood before. Um, but actually, that feeling is not a reliable sign of compatibility, it's just shared genetics showing up.

SPEAKER_04 19:54

Whoa.

SPEAKER_02 19:55

Oh my god. So I know we keep joking about like, oh, you could have factually rather. No, that you really could in this situation.

SPEAKER_03 20:09

Sorry, can you tell me again what the name of this of this is? That's uh Westeros. I want to say Westeros, which doesn't feel unwarranted for the top.

SPEAKER_02 20:24

But it's the Westermark effect. The Westermark mark. All one word, Westermark effect effect.

SPEAKER_03 20:33

The fact that it's this has even got a name, yeah. That means it's prevalent enough to have been identified as an issue, that it's been researched and funding has been put into this research. Do you know what I mean? Like it's and also the fact that there's a big enough research pool, there's enough people to do a decent study on is alarming.

SPEAKER_04 21:04

Have you got some real life examples, Helen?

SPEAKER_02 21:07

Yeah, so I do actually.

SPEAKER_04 21:09

I knew it.

SPEAKER_02 21:11

God bless. Which was having a swing of her mouth eating.

SPEAKER_03 21:16

That's unbelievable.

SPEAKER_02 21:18

I will just say that this is difficult sometimes with research because obviously it's such a taboo, uh as as it should be taboo. Uh, it's a really sensitive topic. Like imagine you have got married to someone and you've just found out that you are brother and sister. Lots of people. How heartbreaking, particularly if you've gone on to have children.

SPEAKER_04 21:45

Um that's very hard.

SPEAKER_02 21:47

Yeah. It's not something that then you're going to be like, do you know what? I'm going to stick this all over social media and tell everyone about this or do multiple interviews about things. I do have one where someone has gone on record. And has done interviews. And I feel like we can totally talk about that.

SPEAKER_04 22:05

Fabulous.

SPEAKER_02 22:06

Here we go then. So this real case study, there's a woman called Victoria Hill, and she's from Connecticut. So I think obviously, in a way, the story's like pretty horrific. It's not the one from the Netflix documentary series, but it is essentially the same story. So it's where the fertility, the family fertility doctor, was using his own sperm to impregnate any of his clients.

SPEAKER_04 22:34

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_02 22:35

Or all in this same region. So you've got to imagine then there's like such a gene pool of that. But also what I found is like how concerning because that Netflix documentary is such a horror show. And then I've stumbled across, it's happened again. So it's like, welcome to America. This is an excerpt of uh an article that she wrote and was interviewed in. In May of 2023, I attended a high school reunion. I was eager and excited to see many of my classmates for the first time in years, and I reconnected with some of my closest friends, including my high school boyfriend. My high school boyfriend and I met in eighth grade, quickly grew incredibly close, and spent most of our time together. Friends joked about our connection when we went to parties or hung out with others, but always found our way into a corner together. We shared something unlike anything else I'd experienced. We were best friends until 11th grade, when we decided to finally date and become intimate. Then we went our separate ways before attending different colleges. We saw each other throughout the years, but naturally drifted apart. Still, he was and always will be someone I hold strong feelings for. After reconnecting at the reunion, my friends and I decided to get together again in a more intimate setting. As we sat around a dinner table, I told my surprise DNA and fertility fraud discovery story. Then my former boyfriend turned to me and said, My mother recently told my twin brother and I that we were conceived via IVF. He and his brother were born exactly one month after I was at the same hospital. It was at this moment that we looked at each other, our stomach in knots, and shared the same horrifying thoughts. What were the chances that our mothers use the same doctor? That night, I demanded my former boyfriend ask his mum the name of the doctor who had helped her conceive. He did, and she repeated back my biological father's name. He then took a 23andMe test, and in July of 2023, it was confirmed. My high school boyfriend and his twin brother were my half-siblings, numbers 21 and 22 in our sibling pod. The trauma around this revelation is profound. If my former boyfriend and I had attended the same college, we likely would have married and had children together, only later to discover we were brother and sister. Even after we went our separate ways, we saw each other at friends' weddings, and there was always a connection between us. Had one of us not been with someone else at those times, we might have reconnected again.

SPEAKER_04 25:14

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 25:17

That's so brave of her to come forward and share that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 25:22

I I want did they does it go on to say if they now have a relationship as siblings or friends?

SPEAKER_02 25:28

Yeah, it was like part of a really long article with loads of stuff. But and yeah, they do have a like a relationship as siblings. A flirty sibling relationship. As siblings with benefits relations.

SPEAKER_04 25:47

No, we shouldn't make that. No, that's not fun.

SPEAKER_02 25:50

Is it? But it's like wild because you've got to think about when people go to these clinics, like same same for us. So I mean, it's not gonna be unusual that you'll have lots of people in the same area that could all be related to one another and have no idea.

SPEAKER_03 26:20

Yeah. Well, I mean the fact that we went to the same union at the same time, you know, we went to all the same places because Leeds Fresh is was a fortnight, wasn't it? And that was just like a fortnight of every single night you'd go out and sky to parties and everything. And we would have been there at all the same events. Had you been like I'm sorry, but like had you been like a guy and I saw you, yeah, I'd probably be like, four, all right.

SPEAKER_04 26:57

Ding dong.

SPEAKER_03 26:59

And like, but that's the thing, just the fact that you were maybe born a girl, but I didn't try and cop on.

SPEAKER_02 27:08

But you don't you don't know if you have copped on with one.

SPEAKER_04 27:12

Well, that's it. And I was gonna say, you know, we we don't know if there are more of us. I mean, you know, at the moment we just know that we're all girls. And we you know, it's isn't it written somewhere within the research that it's more like women tend to do these tests more than men? Yeah. So I mean, there could be there could be some men out there that, you know, I have snugged in East London.

SPEAKER_03 27:49

But there really could be. Yeah, I I do think like when I found out that we were donor conceived, one of my initial things was like, oh my god, what have I done and who with and whatever. And I thought of all of my ex-boyfriends, and I was like, no, no, no, definitely not. I mean, uh, it would be really interesting, like, to know how many donor conceived people have gone on to have children together.

SPEAKER_02 28:21

And that's kind of the issue because we won't really know about that because it's um again, I know I always hark back to the Wild West era, but everyone was told don't tell, don't tell your children.

SPEAKER_04 28:37

Don't tell your children, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:39

So we won't ever know that stat. But I don't think it's unreasonable to think that there are cases of that in the UK, and people have no idea.

SPEAKER_03 28:50

And that is also why it's really important. People know that they are donor-conceived, not just for them, but then for future grandkids, and it and it's a thing that is spoken about in all families in fairness to that donor-conceived person and the children that they then bring into this world. Because, for example, our kids will know that their mom's the donor-conceived, so then if they meet someone, and because it's all spoken about and it's all open and shared, it's worth you know, they mention it to someone that they would like to have kids with. This is such a lockdown Zoom meeting, isn't it? Sorry.

SPEAKER_04 29:40

You were saying something very poignantly.

SPEAKER_02 29:42

But I think you are absolutely right, Gemma. And really, it's the discovery is pretty much always after the fact. So it you did you're not discovering it before you've slept with a sibling or before you've married your sibling, it's always afterwards, and that's you know, yeah. How where it's all such a great area. So shall I lighten the mood slightly? Go for it. Okay, I've got a game for you. Oh right, I'm gonna give you a couple of scenarios, and I want you to answer whether so it'll be like, you know, shag, marry, kill, but instead your options are less fun. Date, DNA test first, or immediate exit. My first question: you're on a first date. You meet someone who looks like you but is hotter. Date. Date. Date. Okay, that's nice. A nice, easy one to warm up with. Okay, you're on a first date. You have identical music taste, humour, and face shape.

SPEAKER_03 30:56

Oh date.

SPEAKER_02 31:00

Yeah, probably date. Yeah, saying probably date, to be fair. Yeah. Okay, my next one. You're on a first date, and you both say, I've got like 20 half siblings.

SPEAKER_03 31:16

DNA test. Yeah, DNA test. And hopefully they know that because they've done a DNA test. So you get your phones out, get your app out immediately. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:28

Okay, you share the same rare surname and grew up 20 minutes apart.

SPEAKER_04 31:34

What? So like a Pashak. I'm the only fucking Pashak I've ever met. If I walked into a Tinder date and the geyser was like, Yeah, my name's Thomas Apashak, I'd be like, fuck off.

SPEAKER_02 31:56

That was yeah, that one's too obvious, isn't it? Okay, okay, okay. The the other question. Your grandparents are from the exact same small village.

SPEAKER_03 32:06

Oh, DNA test.

SPEAKER_02 32:08

I guess that kind of brings this episode to a bit of a close, really. I think we've covered everything. There's real life case studies, what we would do in certain scenarios. Thankfully, we know the wedding is still on, so that's good. But at the end of the day, most people aren't walking around thinking about this stuff, and that is probably a good thing. But for most people in donor-conceived situations, or just anyone navigating modern DNA surprises, it's a reminder that identity isn't always as simple as we think. And also, maybe don't just rely on vibes alone as your genetic screening tool.

SPEAKER_04 32:49

Well done.