Ep 10 Nature Vs Nurture Part 2

How much of your personality is actually yours… and how much is inherited chaos?

In Part 2 of Nature Vs Nurture, Nat takes us deeper into our own experiences as donor-conceived sisters - comparing our habits, personalities, emotional reactions, and the slightly alarming similarities we never expected to share.

Through a series of increasingly personal questions, Gemma and Helen open up about the traits, instincts, and behaviours that feel a little too genetically familiar… including some scarily unhinged truths we probably should’ve kept to ourselves.

This episode explores:

• Nature vs nurture psychology
• Genetic traits and inherited behaviour
• Donor conception and sibling similarities
• DNA, personality, and identity
• Real experiences from donor-conceived siblings
• How biology can shape behaviour in unexpected ways

Part therapy session, part identity crisis.

🎙️ Sperm Sisters Podcast – Nature Vs Nurture (Part 2)
🎧 Listen now on Spotify, Apple Podcasts & all podcast platforms
📺 Watch on YouTube

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Doobida ba ba ba-da ba ba ba do-bi-da ba ba ba sperm sisters This is a story about sisters.

SPEAKER_02 0:19

Just not the kind that you're expecting. Three years ago, we were strangers, living separate lives.

SPEAKER_03 0:25

Now we know we're biological sisters, connected by the same sperm donor. And that's just the beginning.

SPEAKER_02 0:32

This podcast dives headfirst into the how, the why, and the uncomfortable questions no one seems to want to answer.

SPEAKER_03 0:38

Uncovering secrets the medical world would rather keep buried. How many donor-conceived people are there really? No one can give a straight answer.

SPEAKER_02 0:46

Not the clinics, not the system, no one. So, how many siblings could be walking past us every day without a clue? It's messy, it's shocking.

SPEAKER_03 0:56

At times it's almost impossible to believe. And somehow, it's also really funny.

SPEAKER_02 1:02

Come with us as we dig deeper, ask the uncomfortable questions, and laugh our way through the chaos of discovering who we really are. And just how many of us there might be.

SPEAKER_03 1:12

Coming up on this week's episode of Sperm Sisters.

SPEAKER_02 1:25

Cut to a few days later, put on a pair of trousers, put my hands in the pocket. I have no pockets. Any item of clothing, Jem has snipped the pockets out of every single item of clothing.

SPEAKER_03 1:41

And moments where we discover we are all the same person.

SPEAKER_01 1:46

I had never met anybody in my life that understood how it felt until I met you.

SPEAKER_02 1:55

I've had multiple therapists to try and like, you know, and I'm even there like, oh, let's begin the show. Welcome back, everybody, to another episode of Sperm Sisters. Woo woo!

unknown 2:08

Yo!

SPEAKER_02 2:10

We have lost track of what episode this is, but as always, we're gonna do our mini introductions. Normally we go from eldest to youngest, but last episode we mixed it up and we went from youngest to eldest. This episode we're gonna go from middle to eldest to youngest. Middle, that's me! Um, hello, my name's Gemma, and I'm the middle sister, the token middle one, by however many days or weeks. What is age when you get to your 30s? Exact a money. How old are we? 36. 36. And I'm the eldest by a week. And over here to my left. What's your name? Natasha. Beautiful. And I'm Helen, the youngest of the three. I'm 35 years old. And 35 with experiments! Hell yeah. And in this week's episode, we are going to continue our conversations around nature versus nurture. Lovely. Ellen kicked us off with part one last week with some um fascinating true life stories. And today we're gonna continue these conversations, but we're gonna bring them more sort of, you know, more around, more centered around us as a three and our experiences around nature versus nurture and our thoughts around it. Love that. So when people talk about nature versus nurture, they're usually asking a really simple question. That question being, what makes us who we are? I don't know. Oh, well, let me tell you. Is it genetics? Is it DNA? Is it the traits that we inherit from our biological families? Or is it actually the case of the environments that we grow up in, the people who have raised us, and the experiences that we have and the love that we have received? And I think what's interesting for donor-conceived people is that that question can feel especially complicated once you find out that your donor conceived. Yes, because when you discover your donor conceived, it can suddenly make um make you re-examine parts of yourself that you may never have questioned before. Such as certain personality traits, our habits, our interests, or even our physical mannerisms. They can all start to feel quite significant. So for me, that question became very, very real when I discovered you both, Helen and Gemma, which was four years ago now. Yeah, we had our furniversary um the 2nd of May. Oh my goodness me. So yeah, four years ago. Yeah. Should have done something to say. That's a nice date as well. Is that not the bank holiday? Oh yeah!

SPEAKER_01 5:08

Oh the second of May.

SPEAKER_02 5:10

Yeah, that's when we first messaged each other. Cute. That's gorgeous. Um what made it even more fascinating for me? Why are you laughing? Just because we were like, oh just at the second of May. Psyche. So cute. It's beautiful. Um, but also, can I just say four years ago? Four years ago, Jesus. Like that's such a long time. That's a really it doesn't feel as though it's been that long because it's nearly half a decade. Do you know ridiculous? I know you're saying it really doesn't feel like it's been that long, but I also can't really remember not knowing you. Oh, yeah. Which is weird the same. Yeah, yeah. That's maybe that's all part of the whole being a sibling thing, is that it was we're so hardwired to each other. Yeah. Or is it nature?

SPEAKER_01 6:11

Drop it in the comments, guys.

SPEAKER_02 6:14

Let us know what you think. Well, we're actually we're gonna get into this. Naturally, meeting each other brought up some very big questions for each of us, I think. Would we actually be similar, being the main one? Perhaps. Certainly, when I was in the opera house, about to walk down those stairs to meet you both in the little cafe. I think that that's the main thing that I was thinking. I was like, are we actually gonna be similar? And I remember when I fell into your arms, Gemma.

SPEAKER_00 6:44

You hugged me so tightly.

SPEAKER_02 6:47

And obviously, I'm a real big hugger too. Oh fuck.

SPEAKER_00 6:51

And I was like, Oh no, it works. We got through one episode before without any tears.

SPEAKER_02 6:58

But you know, for me, that was always the biggest question, like leading up to meeting you both. I was like, how similar are we really, really going to be? And so, but I think I was thinking that not just in obvious ways, but in the tiny little things. So, like our reactions, our humour, certain habits, ways of our ways of speaking, which I think have become very present, present through this during this podcast. Yes. Um, and things that sort of felt strangely familiar despite years of living separate lives. So, my question to you both is what was the very first moment where you thought, oh wow, yeah, we're related. Mine was also when we were in the Royal Opera House in the cafe, and as soon as you sat down, and it was it was like we were all having a conversation, but it was so scatty immediately of like, and we were just laughing, and within two minutes, it's like I'd known you well for over 20 years, yeah, and there was just no I was so nervous beforehand. Yeah, oh me too.

SPEAKER_00 8:05

I felt sick.

SPEAKER_02 8:06

Yeah, yeah, and I remember Gemma and I going into Covent Garden, and I was like, I can't I can't do it. Really? Yes, I didn't know that. Yeah, I was like, I I can't do it. I I feel so sick. I was like, I don't know what to do. And I genuinely believe if Gemma hadn't been there, I'd have backed out. Yeah, 100%. Yeah. Because I find it so nerve-wracking. Yeah, um, and then yeah, straight away I was put at ease, and I was like, oh yeah, she's my sister. It was immediate for me, yeah. Yeah, for me, it was immediate. Like you say, as soon as we sat down, we was like, this conversation was going on over here, and then it was there, and then it was like, yeah. Makes sense. Yeah, I think that's the same. Because when um actually my bonus episode, because I'm doing the bonus episode not this week, next week, yeah. I want to do one on my point of view of like what it was like just before we met you, that like the lunch before. Oh, great. Right. So I'm glad we're talking about this because it's nice to know what you guys want to think. I'm glad I'm talking about that as well, because I was quite unhinged at that lunch. But sorry, I just wanted to add, but like that's exactly what I was like upstairs all day working. Yeah, I was like how you got any work. My colleague at the time, I was like, I feel so sick, like I feel like I'm gonna have a panic attack. And the person that I was working with at the time was like, pull yourself together, like it's gonna be amazing. But it's like, you know, yeah, there you have it, nature. Yeah. Within that case alone. And I think it's lucky the fact that we've all got that gene where we are naturally like just loving and empathetic, kind of nurturing people. The immediate thing was like, Are you okay? Are you okay? I'm okay. Are you okay? Because for me, like the bit where I realized that that really kicked in for me was when um we were sat having a having a drink and stuff, meeting you for the first time, and I was telling you about the family research that I had done. And there was a split-second moment where I said, just to let you know, we're from really good stock. Yeah, yeah, we're from good stock, we're from good people. And that broke me saying that because that was in like a realization moment of being like we are so connected from some really awesome people, and it's a shame that we don't know them, but from research that we may delve into one day, go into it. But it I just wanted to reassure you, yeah, and then it was how you were with me. It was like a mirror where you were, it was almost as though you shut everything else down. She'd be like, right, Brie, you're fine, it's okay. And you held my hand before she did.

SPEAKER_00 10:57

Yeah, I've known a yeah, well, you're comfortable. Here she goes again.

SPEAKER_02 11:09

But it was that moment where I was like, wow, like I've never that for me, it was like holding a mirror up because I saw in your eyes. That's a really beautiful way of saying it because I felt exactly the same way. As soon as you said to me, you went, We're from really good stock, or like we were from really good people, and we both we had like a little moment where we were both just like yeah, we are, and like you know, it was just so and yeah. I actually wished that we had recorded that first not for that camera, but even just like, well, it made a good episode, wouldn't it? Yeah, so dust doing all these bloody recordings. Maybe for the next one we find. But maybe though. Well, let's not throw them into it before letting them know. There'll be another one. What do you think? Yes, 100%. Yeah, when you look at the stats on it for sure. Yeah. Is it unethical to record someone without them now? I think so. Might be thinking we might find people. Yeah, I do. Do you think? Well, I I I feel a bit sort of separated from it now in a s in a weird way because I don't have 23andMe anymore. So I feel ever so slightly sort of not within it anymore. Yeah, I get that. And also, I suppose you've not been on the receiving end of like you've had the app for ages, and then you have found somebody, like come up as a result. You got your results when there were people there already. Yes. So maybe that's different. Because actually, how long were you two on 23andMe before I popped up? Uh a year and a bit. So this is a long wait before another sibling comes up. Nearly two, yeah, nearly two years. Yeah. Yeah. So I mean, it just depends on like if anyone discovers that they are donor-conceived or has known about it for a long time and is and just wants to sit with that knowledge for a bit before looking into more, or are watching this thinking, Christ, I'm not gonna find out. I'm not getting above those three. Yes, all of those things that you've just said, I think is what makes the whole nature versus nurture debate really interesting when it comes to donor conception, because suddenly you're sort of seeing genetics but in real time. Um there's actually loads and loads of research that obviously Helen touched upon in part one. So if you haven't heard part one yet, make sure you go back and listen to that first. But all of this research is, you know, showing that biological relatives, even ones that have been raised apart, such as the Jim brothers that you spoke about, um, can actually share personality traits, behaviours, interests, and even mannerisms. And honestly, before this experience, I probably would have thought that that sounded really over-exaggerated until having met you both. Um so, another little question for you both. What similarities between us have genuinely shocked you the most? How quickly we can change a topic halfway through a sentence. I think if you timed it, um uh yeah, if if you timed it, we would have exactly the same point second. Like, oh, she's found another topic to talk about. Like, yeah, yeah. The only thing I can think of in my head that I can now can't unthink of is how similar your toes are.

SPEAKER_01 14:52

Is that nature or nurture, Helen?

SPEAKER_02 14:55

I mean, that's supposed to be nurture, it's like spider monkey toes. But we can pick things up with our toe. Yeah, they can. Were you looking for something for us to pick up? You were like, yeah, you can. Yeah, I'm ready for you guys to do it. Painting. There's a paintbrush on the table. Good paint, guys. The earlobes. Hanging.

SPEAKER_01 15:18

Hanging, hanging low.

SPEAKER_02 15:20

Hanging lobe. Hanging low, we're low. Hanging low. That's all like fears. Well, I have my ears pinned back. Yeah. Yeah. Bad times. Something they're all nature. That's nature in terms of genetic appearance, but if you're talking about personality traits, I know I kind of touched upon it briefly in the previous episode, but we're all in the creative industries. Jem was an artist. Nat is a dance. Well, how would you describe your job? Your job's confusing to describe. Well, what it is actually. Um, well, was a dancer, but now work within the performing arts sector. Yeah. And I'm a piano teacher. Yeah. Yeah. So that's like they're all quite niche. Uh it's not as if we're all um graph millennial graphic designers. It it's actually quite niche creative and really making it work for yourselves as well, where we're not really too reliant on other people career-wise. We don't work for other people. We've all we've all owned our own businesses. We've all, you know, yeah, yeah. So I think that's really interesting because I think that that probably has come from a nature perspective. But something that you would think would come from a nurture perspective are things like mannerisms, or the way that, you know, maybe you say things. But for us, you know, we grew up separately, but there is no shadow of a doubt that, you know, we have similarities in that regard. Yes. Both of you two do this thing where you change the accent and and you do it at the same time, and you do the same accent. And you've always done that. You haven't changed your accent. Like when something is either a bit awkward. Why do you both do that? Well, no, I think that's like I actually think that's uh if you are like nervous suddenly, it's like a nervous energy thing. It's a nervous energy thing, and I think it's subconsciously done so that like other people don't feel awkward too. Oh and and I think it just lightens the mood. I think. Well, that's certainly why I do it, yeah. Yeah, I think you're both prone to that. But I yeah, I think definitely. Well, if we're being a bit more serious as well, we do all I hate to be the whole like, you know, when people are like, and I have anxiety. But like we do actually all have anxiety. We've and sorry, no, you say we've all we all have our own experience of mental health anxiety in one way or another. And I um and that's definitely genetic. And would we refer to that as an inherited trait? Yes, confidently, yes. Well, so scientifically that is an inherited trait, though. Is it screened for now? In sperm donation, I would love to know that. God, I don't know. It should be. I think it should be, but um probably not. But I think that's interesting too, because that's something we definitely all have. Oh no, do you know what I think? Me and you have. And I always think I'm either about to come down with food poisoning or just any germs at all. I'm like, well, imminent death. You two can talk each other off a ledge because you understand how each other are feeling in that split-second moment. Like, okay.

SPEAKER_01 19:21

And I had never met anybody in my life that understood how it felt until I met you.

SPEAKER_00 19:31

I've had multiple therapists to try and like, you know, and I'm even they're like, oh my. And then I met you, and I was like, oh no, I can't, I can't eat that if it has nuts.

SPEAKER_02 19:43

And you were like, Are you allergic to them? And I was like, no, but I could be.

SPEAKER_00 19:48

I understand completely.

SPEAKER_02 19:53

No, I feel my throat closing up. I'm actually dying now. Like it's so mad. Yeah, it's really bad. That is in that's a hunt. I would love to be able to ask that question. It's such a weird question to ask, but I would love because I think that has to have come from do you ever convince yourself that you're currently dying? Or about it. But that's got to be inherited because that is got to be. I'd say that Alexis and I don't have that, but you two. But you do have like anxiety there that rears itself in a different way. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I used to have like full-blown panic attacks. I remember having my first panic attack when I was five, maybe four. That's so young. Yeah. Do you know what it was about? No, the fish, the goldfish. Yeah, because mum didn't get another. Go back in time and never see my mummy and daddy again. Wasn't it something to do with back to the future? If you ate the pea or something. That was so it it transpired, it kind of changed into OCD. It was controlling it. If I ate five peas, I'd go back in time. Yeah. I'd never see mommy and daddy ever again. Yeah. I'd be lost, and I don't know where, because I don't understand time. I still don't, and I'm 36, but I would just freak out. And then that's how my anxiety played out when I was younger. So I think actually for the three of us, it is it's actually a bit of OCD anxiety. Oh, yeah, that is what it is. Yeah. How many times have I had to check that camera? We are behind schedule. Yeah. That's interesting though. Bloody is, isn't it? So that kind of covers your, you know, inheritable personality traits. We've also done the physical traits. Our eyes are very Similar as well, I think. This bit, this bit, we yeah, we all have this bit, we all have to wear cat-eye glasses. Yeah, we don't we yeah, and our cheeks, cheeks, so look, all of those things that we're talking about really are nature, but now we move on to nurture because Helen, Gemma, you two share something that I, in fact, do not share in the same way, and that is your childhood, your shared memories, the same routines, the same environment that you were in growing up. And of course, as we all know, our environments shape who we are. And research shows that upbringing can influence things such as confidence, attachment styles, communication, our emotional responses, and even how safe we feel within our relationships. So, do you think growing up together made you more similar than me and you both? Or do you think that the genetics are perhaps stronger? If I'm again just going back to what our career paths are, so sorry, get a new topic. But we get it, we're creative. But I don't dance very well. Gemma can dance. You can dance. Do you know what I mean though? Because I should be able to dance. And now you've got No no no. It's not about you being able to dance. The fact is, is that you've got rhythm. And you have got rhythm because you're a piano teacher and you're a singer. Yeah, to gas to rhythm. Thinking about our childhood though, with the whole nurture thing, I uh Helen, let's be completely honest. Do you think you're more similar to me or more similar to Nat? And I will not be offended. Neither will I. I'm thinking so much offend you. Um, I, in a weird way, actually think I'm more similar to Nat. Yeah. You think that you two are more similar. I agree. And I wonder if that might be the order in which you were birthed within the family unit. Because I would say, out of all three of us, I'm the most mother hen big sister. You're doing that, you're doing that. We need to sort this out. And I boss you two around. I feel like I definitely am, I play a big sister role. Yeah, yeah. With both of you two. And not like I actively think about it, but I think that maybe that's like a nurture thing because I've only ever been a big sister to Helen, and I deny if this is true. But if we went on holiday together and we had to fly somewhere, I'd still hold your passport. I've never been in charge of my own passport. Never. I'm never in charge of mine. Well wait, once I was, but I was literally on my own, so I had to be. And good God was I panicking the whole time, thinking I was gonna lose it. But I think that's probably more nurture because I've always been very maternal with you, I think. And in fairness, you are like a massive organizer. Yeah, I'm not. I'll be talking, tell me where to be, and I'll be there. Yeah, and I've messaged you about your wedding to be like, can we have a little Zoom meeting about your wedding? Yeah. Step back. No, but I hear what you're saying, but because you know, you've grown up in an environment where you are the elder sister, yeah. You've always, you know, been looking after this little well-being. But that like, yeah, it's automatically sort of like embedded within you because Yeah, I think you do fall into those roles. And if you can if I think better friends, you could tell whether you were the oldest, youngest, or middle. And I think I have like weirdly all also fallen into that role. Yeah. Because obviously, I we can keep this in. Like, I do have an older sister outside of this as a circle. Yeah. And so, you know, I sort of automatically fell into it, even though I'm the eldest out of the three of us, yeah, albeit by a week, you know, I still have sort of found myself fittling in fitting into this little puzzle as like, yeah, I'm still like the younger sister. Yeah, you know, it does blow my mind that you're actually the eldest.

SPEAKER_00 26:53

Thanks, Ella. Fucking strange.

SPEAKER_02 26:59

I think that's all really interesting, and actually it kind of is. I think there's a huge argument for that for where you are in your um nuclear family that you were raised in, the birth order. I think that probably does shape who you are as a person as well. Yeah. Absolutely. And the thing is, is that this whole thing is so emotionally complex when it comes to donor conception, because I think as a donor-conceived child, it makes you realise that it makes you realise two things at the same time. The first thing being that DNA can create an instant sense of familiarity. Yeah, absolutely. And but and also that family and closeness are built through lived experiences. Just to go back to a previous episode, the genetic oh god, not saying about ourselves, but there it there's the proof of when um siblings accidentally marry one another because they feel like they've just clicked for the first time ever. And that's because theory. I have something here that's a sort of follow-up question in relation to this. Do you think biology makes someone feel familiar? Yes, yes, definitely. Yeah, because even just looking at somebody, I think you're because also, if you saw siblings on the street, yes, you can normally tell that someone is biologically related. But then you've got to think about we when we put our makeup on in the morning, we look at our own faces in the mirror daily, um, you know, pictures, whatever. You see yourself quite a lot, and then when you're looking at someone who does mirror similar not just physical appearance, but mannerisms, 100%. That's like mind-blowing. And actually, Gemma, question for you. Yeah. Because you are the person out of the three of us who have met Aldona. Yes. Which we'll go into in future episodes, perhaps, hopefully, fingers crossed. But did you feel that sense of familiarity when you met him? Yes. So I'm I always feel quite guilty the fact that I have met him and you two haven't, because there was that magical moment of seeing him, and immediately, immediately seeing a part of each of us in him. And he gave me a hug as well, and that felt like it was a weird feeling like I had known him forever. Like when I talk to you, I feel like I've known you forever. It's the same thing, it's it's a it's really odd, and I can't describe, which doesn't help answering your question at all. No, no, no, no, but certainly a familiarity, yes. I have I put a little question in here, which I think we all know the answer to, but I said, Can you love someone deeply even without a shared history? Oh, can I do that? I mean, undoubtedly. Yeah, uh, that's just not even a question for me. Yeah, yeah. Next slide. So, um, you know, I also think that there's something really strange about recognizing parts of yourself in someone that you didn't grow up with. Yeah. That's what being the freakiest part, I think, uh out of all, you know, out of all of this. Because sometimes it's not even the big things, it's the tiny little reactions. The way someone laughs, the way we tell a story, and the way we maybe all get annoyed about things. Yeah. Don't breathe loudly near me or dare to eat. Oh disgusting. And then suddenly you realise parts of yourself may not have appeared out of nowhere. So I have a little game. Yeah, okay. Game segment. Who's most likely to? I love this. And I'm gonna follow up with a question after each one. The question being, do we think that's nature or nurture? Okay, okay. So, okay, this is quite a funny one to start with. Most likely to start crying first. Gemma. Or nah. I was gonna say maybe Nat. Actually, I was well, I was gonna say, I think it's really hard to pick the between the two of us. Yeah. Like to cry. All right. Well, did you not already cry in this episode at the beginning, didn't you?

SPEAKER_00 31:34

Gemma didn't.

SPEAKER_02 31:38

Yeah, maybe me. And I think that it's probably nature. I think that's probably nature, yeah. Because you've hardwired yourself to suppress any form of emotion. Don't we'll break ya. Okay, so we've settled with either me or you. Yeah. Nature. Definitely nature, yeah. I mean, listen, I still cry at stuff. This could just be pregnancy hormones. I couldn't open a tin of tomatoes, and I have never experienced an emotional reaction as strongly as I have with that, because I was getting so angry at the manufacturers of the Tesco Top Tomato Tin Company, whatever it was. That was the issue. Because I'm so cheap, it was a and they it was just too far away for my tin open to see. I got a knife out, I was trying to do it.

SPEAKER_01 32:35

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_02 32:36

Yeah. And then I just broke down in tears. And Jack came in and was like, what's going on? And I was like, they've marketing this as an openable tin. And I was like, in floods of tears. You cry when you get angry. Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Always have done. Yeah. Especially if we've had an argument, and if you're not winning, I'll cry. She'll cry. And she'll just, I just can't. Do you know what? I just can't do this anymore. And then just go and cry and then come back five minutes later.

SPEAKER_00 33:13

You're right. You're okay.

SPEAKER_02 33:15

You don't have to put this in, but you're not an interesting fact of how far Gemma took a teenage argument we had once. This is pathetic. You're pathetic. I wore one of Gemma's tops once, I think it was. Or it might have been shoes, actually. I think it was a pair of shoes, and I I've got uh notoriously wide feet and I stretched them out. And Gemma knew I'd worn them, and I blied, obviously, and said I hadn't. Cut to a few days later, I go through my wardrobe, put on a pair of trousers, put my hands in the pocket. I have no pockets any item of clothing. Gemma snipped the pockets out of every single item of clothing. Can you say this is desperate? I'd asked you like 20 fucking times to just stop wearing my clothes. And it's really annoying because you went to the same college as me, because there's like not much of an age gap between us. And I would see you, I would see you walk around the corner and you'd scarp her off, but oh no, I'm wearing all my clothes. For fuck's sake! It's so annoying. Gemma had really good clothes. Yeah, and she did until she lost all her pockets. Most likely to overshare. Oh I mean, I honestly believe that that's tied. Yeah. I think by all three of us. All three. Yeah, equal, yeah, equal measures. Like chronic oversharers. It's really bad. Really bad.

SPEAKER_01 34:52

It's really bad.

SPEAKER_02 34:54

I don't know how to stop it. Sorry, please can we say the story of what James said? So Nat's car breakdown a few weeks ago, and they had to get um towed all the way back from Hull. And apparently it was like the most well, James was saying it was the most uncomfortable lift ever on the way back. And at one point, Nat was just filling all the silences. She asked the man, have you ever killed a bird? This man who'd been in the army, had served in Afghanistan. And you should do a podcast on that. But I think there's an element of oversharing with also trying to feel nervousness, like nervous energy. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Nature. Nature. Um, most likely to say, this is a bad idea, and still do it. Oh, I think I am, because I think you get way too anxious and you shut things down way too quickly. I really don't know. I think maybe both of you would say that but still do it. I can't think of an example though. You never used to, but you now panic about the outcomes of scenarios. I think that's since. But we've switched. Whereas I don't give a shit anymore. I I care way less about things than you do. You care a lot. Which is not a bad thing. Because it means you're not going to get into trouble. But I just I've lost the ability to give a shit. But I think that's age. What do you think about that question for you? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:35

Not anymore. I wouldn't used to have been like, that's a really bad idea, done it anyway. But not now.

SPEAKER_02 36:41

I think I'd probably fall more into the latter character category as well. Okay. Nature or nurture. I think that's nurture. I think so too. It's experience. Yeah, it's experience and experience. Yeah. Well, with all of that being said, ladies, maybe that's the real answer to the debate. It's not nature or nurture, but actually, it's both. Nature might give us the blueprint, but nurture shapes our stories. Stun. Starting. Join us next week. Join us next time for the game of DNA Higher or Lower. Woo woo woo.