SWIMMINGPOOL INTERNATIONAL
The podcast from pool experts for everyone
SWIMMINGPOOL INTERNATIONAL
#5: The wonderful world of liners
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Swimming pool international, the swimming pool podcast.
SPEAKER_05A warm welcome to our international swimming pool podcast. In front of me sits Angela. Angela Herman, International Sales Manager at Banker Manufacturing in Germany.
SPEAKER_03And in front of me sits Michael, Michael Fissor, Export Manager at Fluvor Schmalenberger from Tubing in Germany.
SPEAKER_05How are you today?
SPEAKER_03Oh, not too bad. I was a bit tired because I was walking the dog too long yesterday night, but I'm okay now. I'm actually pretty happy to sit here.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, we have a dog at home too, and I miss it very much. So tomorrow I'm flying home, and then I will be happy to see my dog again. Yeah. Today we are meeting a very special person, uh, Mr. Olivier Hilmarier from CTG France, the general manager. And we would like to discuss certain topics. What is it about, Angela?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, we're very happy actually. We see we're here at the fair, and we see it's super crowded, and we wanted to know more about what you do, about the factory, about history, what it is about, about your liners.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, good morning. Uh good morning, uh Angela. Uh, good morning, uh Michael. Um, so CGT Alco from France is part of very large um um PVC group, uh very large Canadian group uh based in Toronto. Uh CGT is uh number one uh worldwide for the supply of PVC pool liner. So we are a very large uh group in uh the PVC uh foils for pool. Um we are uh active in uh six different uh countries to produce this material and uh we are uh selling to more than 40 countries uh worldwide.
SPEAKER_05Okay, and uh I also understood that uh besides pools you do a lot for uh automotive.
SPEAKER_04Yes, we are very large in uh in automotive. We are uh producing uh the foils uh for the synthetic laser. So it's made in PVC, and you can find this product in in most of the cars today. We are really large uh in this segment.
SPEAKER_05Uh okay, so if I may ask, is that for like for the ceiling in the car or what part of the car is it used? Uh it's mostly applied uh on the seatings of the cars. Oh, the seatings, yeah. Okay. Oh, I didn't know that. That's something totally new for me. I didn't know it was PVC as well.
SPEAKER_03And I didn't know that actually pools and cars are so close. Yes, that's correct. So that leads me to the question: how did you come from this to make the liner for pools?
SPEAKER_04Uh we started a very long time ago because the company has a very long history. It's a 150 years old company, it's a family-owned company. And um we we we started um with uh while producing uh PVC for seatings, uh as we explained to you. And then we we had some uh request um to engineer uh some PVC foils to give some water tightness to the pools, and uh it was already 80 years ago, so we were one of the pioneers uh to engineer and to sell uh PVC foils uh for the pool business.
SPEAKER_05Ah, that's very very interesting. So it starts it all started in Canada and from there it grew across the world.
SPEAKER_04Exactly, because we have been active in Europe only. Um we started only 10 years ago in Europe. We were very, very large in North America because we are number one worldwide, but not number one also in North America. But then 10 years ago, we arrived and we started to promote our product in Europe and we are growing very, very fast in Europe.
SPEAKER_03And you you said you started eight years ago. That's even hard to imagine. You know, a lot of people in Europe at the time didn't think of a pool. Eight years ago, they thought of many other things, but probably not of a pool, and you were already working on a liner. That's impressive. How did it develop over 80 years' time, the liner?
SPEAKER_04Uh the there was a lot of uh change, a lot of upgrades uh um the uh concerning the formulation, but not only the formulation, we have been developing uh new design, uh new effects. Um, for instance, uh we have been uh the first one to develop some gold effect, the label on a 3D uh surface for the pool liners.
SPEAKER_03Oh, now I come into the game. When you talk about gold, you know I love jewelry. So you really have a liner which has gold effects.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, that's correct. Uh it's a very nice effect because you can imagine when the sun is shining on your pool, then you have uh some very nice uh shimmering effect um everywhere uh in your pool.
SPEAKER_03Wow. So what do you think when you have gold or shining gold pool?
SPEAKER_04It looks very luxurious, uh very high-end, premium, and uh you can have something very unique which is um fitting perfectly with a black line of uh banker. So this is a perfect fit for skimmers, uh inlet nozzles, uh, hydro message. Uh black line is perfect fit with uh our top range of Aquasons CGT.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, so you could have put in the the skimmers and the inlet nozzles from uh banker, and then Fluvor could add uh countercurrents or hydromassage nozzles, suctions. We we can fill the the whole pool with black line uh products. It is uh quite an interesting new development for for all of us.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and I have such a nice picture now in my imagination, you know, when you have this shimmering pool with the black inlets. Uh wow.
SPEAKER_05And uh, we already noticed uh on other exhibitions that there's quite some interest in black line. How is the the gold? Uh what is your first impression with certain customers? Do they love it?
SPEAKER_04Yes, we have a very good feedback uh with this uh new gold effect. Um and uh coming back to the black line uh products uh um we really think that uh um it can be a good fit uh with uh dark uh colors like uh uh the black uh stones, but it can be also a very good fit uh if you put um uh a lighter um membrane like um an imitation of marble, calacata marble, for instance, because then you can get a nice contrast. So we have to imagine um um many good situations that uh um with a good fit.
SPEAKER_03You just said stones, so I see here you have some liners with stones and they really look like real stones. So, what is this about?
SPEAKER_04Ah, that that's a very long and very difficult development, but uh we manage uh to have a very good imitation of stone uh thanks to a very special amboss, which is uh an imitation of the stone, but not only uh an omboss, but also with very special uh uh colors and effects which are very uh natural uh and giving a very good uh stone imitation.
SPEAKER_03Wow, yeah, it looks very nice.
SPEAKER_05I think when you talk about this this liner in general, um the people will ask, uh is there any maintenance?
SPEAKER_04Yes, so uh you you need to have a good maintenance. Um of course uh a global good maintenance of your pool, so you need to check the chlorine level, the pH level very regularly, not to damage uh the the the membrane.
SPEAKER_05Okay, so if you work with uh like uh salt chlorine chlorinators, they have to be very precise, like with stainless steel, uh meaning that otherwise you get damage on the on the uh on the membrane.
SPEAKER_04This is correct. Uh you you you have to have a good maintenance, but also on the water line, it's also good to uh to clean the waterline every week because if you wait too much, there can be uh an accumulation of dust on the waterline, and then it's more difficult uh to clean.
SPEAKER_05Ah, yes, yes, yes.
SPEAKER_03But at the end, I think the maintenance you know of a pool is like you were mentioning your in cars, no? It's like you maintain your car, yeah. You have to maintain.
SPEAKER_04It's nothing special exactly. You have to to to to have a uh a standard maintenance of your pool, you have to take care of your pool, and then uh of course you will not get any issue.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_05And uh what kind of limit limitations are there on uh things like uh temperature and uh uh what would you say about that?
SPEAKER_04Our material can uh withstand uh a constant temperature of the water uh till 35 Celsius degrees. Uh, but then if you go over for a long time, you you can uh you can damage uh the material.
SPEAKER_05Ah, yes, I can imagine. But so generally in Europe it's perfectly fine, but if you put a pool in the middle of the desert, it will be different. This is correct.
SPEAKER_04This is this is exactly this, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_05Yes.
SPEAKER_03But I think at the end you have limits always, no, as we said, it's about maintenance, it's about taking care.
SPEAKER_05If you use stainless steel, for instance, in that temperature, you will burn yourself. So uh at that temperature it's not easy to swim anyway. Yeah. Uh is there anything that you could say about uh nowadays? Uh big topic is energy saving, CO2 uh reduction, footprint, all these kind of things. Many companies are very busy with this. Uh, what could you say about this?
SPEAKER_04Yes, uh, we are very focused on sustainability. Um, as an example, uh, we collect all the scrap uh from our customer, and then we recycle uh this material and we put uh this material back in production. Okay.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_04We are also uh using a special formulation with PVC coming from biomass, and it's it's really good for the planet. Yes, really better for the planet. Okay.
SPEAKER_03So how do you see the future? Um yeah, what is uh the future of liner? Um, or what is the percentage? Also, let's say in Europe, how many swimming pools are with liners? Do you know?
SPEAKER_04Like yes, uh, we we know it's different uh considering um the countries. So there are some countries uh they already uh love uh reinforced membrane, so there is a very high percentage of membrane uh used in some countries, and there are some other countries that are still a little bit reluctant because they have a very long history with real ceramic, real tiles, and they are hesitating to switch to some uh material like reinforced membranes.
SPEAKER_05Uh when we look at our products, I always had the impression northern Europe with colder climate is much more liner, and in the south you see more tiles. Is that what you see too?
SPEAKER_04It was uh correct, but uh we see a trend that uh even in Spain, for instance, uh there is more and more uh replacement of uh tiles by reinforced uh membranes. Uh um in CGT Alcore we develop a full range of uh tiles imitation, uh very modern tiles with special effects, with also uh special amboss, and it's giving such a good imitation of the real tile that more and more owners are selecting uh this uh reinforced membrane uh instead of real tiles.
SPEAKER_05Ah, okay. And is there anything you could say about what is in general the lifetime of a liner pool before it needs to be replaced?
SPEAKER_04That's a very good question. Uh, what we see um is most of the time uh the owners can uh keep it as a minimum uh for 15 years.
SPEAKER_05Okay. Okay. And some a little bit longer and some a little bit short. Depends, of course.
SPEAKER_04Depend uh on the maintenance, on the geography, but uh uh we have a lot of customers, they can keep it uh as a minimum 15 years.
SPEAKER_03That's actually very good because um, yeah, I do live in Spain and we I I'm a partly owner, 11th part of a pool. And we were thinking about replacing the tiles because they fall off every year. You know, here they seriously, the tiles we have in the pool here fall all of every year, and then we were thinking, do we take liner or we replace the tiles every year? No, I mean there is this kind of discussion in Spain here, also, you know, and I I've seen it on the my 11th part.
SPEAKER_04This is this is very good um uh uh example. Uh we are making uh a lot of uh renovation of uh um real tiles uh pool which are leaking, and when these tiles uh real tiles pools are leaking, unfortunately it's very difficult to repair. And the the unique and uh best solution is to use reinforced membrane because then you have water tightness for a very long time, even if your ground is moving a bit, there is no problem because the reinforced membrane will not crack, will not, yeah.
SPEAKER_05There is no issue of this. And and for homeowners that would like to do renovation to uh liner, I assume you can put the liner over the tiles. Exactly. Yes, so that makes a big difference.
SPEAKER_04Yes, uh and we are doing this in in um in Europe, but not only in Europe. Um, I can give you the example of South America. So uh CGT Alcore is exporting to many countries in South America, including Mexico, Colombia, Chile, Uruguay, Argentina. Uh, we are selling more and more, and the big part of it is for renovation of real tiles pool which are leaking. Ah, okay.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, very interesting. I think we learned a lot today, didn't we, Michael?
SPEAKER_05Yes, yes, yes. I I didn't realize that liner pools, uh, liner was used a lot for renovation as well. Yeah, obviously in new pools, yes, but for renovation, this is uh a massive market.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and for me it was interesting that you can actually put it over the tiles. Yes, and of course, I'm focusing still on the gold shiny pool with the black inlets. I still like that imagination in my head for today.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, and um another big market uh of renovation is fiberglass renovation. Also, yeah, it's also very difficult to renovate a fiberglass, and we have more and more customers, they use reinforced membrane to renovate a fiberglass. So that's another growing market for us.
SPEAKER_05Wow, yes, yes, and and that is interesting for us too, because the parts are the same for liner and print. So, Olivier, I we we would really like to thank you for your time. We know it's very busy today, and uh it's very interesting uh for homeowners to see the the possibilities they have with liners.
SPEAKER_03Well, thank you so much for being uh with us. No, it was a pleasure really to have learned about uh liners and uh yeah, about all the renovation which are possible. Thank you again.
SPEAKER_05Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you, Michael. You can write us with any comments or questions at mail at swimmingpool minus podcast.com.
SPEAKER_02Goodbye.
SPEAKER_00Gracias Merci welling pool international, the swimming pool podcast.