1. This Is What Changing To Keep Love Looks Like

In the first episode, we tell the real origin story behind starting A Man Isn’t A Plan and why the fastest way back to self-trust is saying the truth out loud. We unpack shame, dating fatigue, and what “boy sober” actually means when you still want love but refuse to lose yourself to get it. 

• the moment a relationship pulls you away from your identity and values 
• the difference between attachment wounds and a dynamic that creates insecurity 
• why telling another woman the full truth dissolves shame 
• making room for nontraditional lives without shaming traditional choices 
• redefining happiness so partnership is not your whole plate 
• what boy sober means and what it does not mean 
• kindness, play, and being celebrated as real relationship standards 
• dating apps as boundary practice plus the overwhelm of too many options 
• why respect and aftercare matter when things end 
• “clean heart sheets” and taking the time you actually need 

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Transcript

Welcome And Why This Podcast

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to a man isn't a plan podcast. We're your hosts, Hannah Haller and Yana Robinson, here to remind you that a man can be a part of your plan, but don't make him all of it.

SPEAKER_02 0:12

This show is for the women building lives in Dharma, purpose, and deep self-trust. Women who could absolutely fall in love, but will not fall off their path. Here we are the author of our own stories.

SPEAKER_00 0:29

So, what is our intention behind starting this podcast? Like, where did this whole podcast idea come from?

SPEAKER_02 0:37

Yeah, and that feels important to name because there are so many I feel everyone is really overstimulated and overwhelmed with content nowadays. So it's important to be intentional of like, why this? Why are we? Both Hannah and I have had our own companies for 10 years, still do. And um the origin story. So I think we both have slightly different origins of where this came from. Yeah. Sure. Um so we've known each other for a decade, probably a decade online, seven or eight years in the physical world. And um both Hannah and I have been really honest and told the truth in our businesses and part of our work as writers. And we were vulnerable on the internet before it was cool to be vulnerable on the internet.

Dinner Confession And Lost Identity

SPEAKER_02 1:31

And uh we had a conversation for me that was a huge catalyst in wanting to do this, um, which was I found myself in a really disempowering relationship where I think it it's being a woman that a lot of other women source the power from, and you know, my lip logo is slogan's walk tall. Um it feels really important to be in integrity with that and to be a strong woman in the world. And I had a moment where we got together for a dinner and I wasn't living that behind the doors in my life. And I had found myself in a relationship that um was really cyclical, had a lot of conflict in it, and um I knew that I was gonna tell Hannah the truth, and I also felt some shame show up around having to share that I was inside of this relationship that wasn't very empowering. And even as somebody who is so authentic and vulnerable and open and real, I had this moment of when we were talking, being like, I don't want to share this because Hannah's a boss ass bitch and I'm a boss ass bitch. And if I tell her this, is she going to still respect me, think these things of me? And I decided to tell you the truth. And so we sat at this dinner and I went into all of the details and said, actually, I'm, you know, in a relationship that has a lot of conflict, and I just woke up one day with blue nails and brown hair.

SPEAKER_00 3:16

And and you don't normally have no brown hair and blue nails.

SPEAKER_02 3:22

No, we actually connect because we're very wild women who don't brush our hair or wear makeup a lot of the times. And I think we've um I've done a lot of deconditioning work around the beauty industry and what we are told as women is beautiful, and um that's also for me part of authenticity. But I ended up in this relationship where and I want to share that sometimes, not sometimes, it I feel there is a difference between having the history or the past that we may have. So I found my birth father when I was um 21, and I definitely have an insecure or anxious attachment type. So sometimes I will walk into a relationship because of my past with that. There's a difference between that and being in a relationship where what somebody says to you creates a space where it makes you feel insecure and pulls out the most insecure parts of you. And so my exact example of that was um there was all of these little comments that had happened of I was gonna get my hair dyed, and you know, you would say, Well, you're gonna dye your gray hairs, right? And there were little subtle moments of me being like, No, no, actually, that wasn't part of what I was gonna dye with my hair, or we should go get your nails done. And I really like it when you dress up and we go out for dinner, and then there was this night where we were out for dinner and I had a mini skirt on, red lipstick, blue Miami nails. It's hard to picture. I went to a blowout bar. Wow, yeah. And I was sitting there and I felt so uncomfortable because I was like, this isn't me. And I've done so much work to get out of it. I used this used to be me when I used to live in Edmonton and sell condos and I would get dressed up and spend hours on my appearance. That's not who I am anymore. That's not how I spend my time. And I've done a lot of work around how the beauty industry, which is a multi-billion dollar industry, tells us that we have to do X, Y, and Z to get love. And here I was, here I was, like with blue Miami nails and a red lipstick on at a dinner going, I feel so uncomfortable because this isn't me. And I came home from that dinner and I sat down and I shared with the person I was dating, hey, I just realized at dinner that I'm I've kind of morphed into this person and I take accountability that I'm the one who painted my nails blue, dyed my hair. But I've kind of changed and I don't want to continue to do this because it doesn't feel like me. And I have a story that if I stopped doing these things now, I would not be enough for you, or it would not be enough for you to stay with me because I feel like you need this. And then he turned to me and said, I don't know if it would be. And um and then I said, Well, in the beginning I wasn't doing this, was it enough then? And he said, To be honest, not really. And so when you are in a relationship, it is different to have a story that you do not communicate with your partner around feeling insecure or feeling not enough. But when somebody says to you, Yes, that isn't enough, it just created this environment where it was a perfect playground for the most insecure parts of me to come out. And that it actually made sense because I was in a relationship with someone who was saying that's not enough. And um and I also want to share that I'm sharing this story as I'm sharing this story, and one of the things that we've talked about with this podcast is there is always this is 50% and there will always be another 50%. And our intention in sharing, we are going to change timelines, names, and details to have sensitivity, not censorship, over people that we have dated, but we both want to tell the truth, unfiltered truths that we're all entitled to 50% of our responsibility for the relationship and 50% of someone else's story and room for that. Yeah, nice absolutely. And I shared this story with Hannah and also shared about I didn't have sentry, which is this express way to walk over the border, and how you know he'd he'd said because I didn't have sentry that I would had to walk over the Tijuana border, like these little moments where I was like, What am I doing? My value system in this relationship is so different. I would never ever drop someone off in Tijuana Walk Over the Border.

SPEAKER_00 8:03

And he dropped you off.

SPEAKER_02 8:04

Yeah, and there was a point where we talked about it and then he offered to, which I do want to say, but the beginning front frame was if we're gonna go to Mexico, this is how we're gonna do it.

SPEAKER_00 8:14

And sounds very reminiscent, the story.

SPEAKER_02 8:17

Yes. And so Hannah had shared with me that as I started to share and I felt all this shame around the relationship I was in, I also want to share that there was a lot of conflict and there was a lot of yelling. I actually lost my voice a few times from yelling because I didn't feel heard. And so there's just a sandwich of shame in the experience I was having and going, this doesn't feel empowering. This doesn't feel like who I am. I'm having an ident identity moment. And I shared it with Hannah, and um I number one, she was really emotionally um created a lot of space and

When Your Partner Says Not Enough

SPEAKER_02 8:55

listened, but also shared that you'd had similar experiences in dating, um, a similar airport experience. And um I when I left that conversation, I felt the power go back into my body. I was feeling really disempowered. I remember driving away, feeling all of my power and energy kind of drop back in from telling another woman the full truth. And um and just it also it got rid of the shame. And I feel like I'm the shame exorcist for a lot of people in my life, but you got to be that for me in that moment. And um, so thank you for that. And it really inspired me of if we're these strong, badass, independent women, and we're having these experiences where we end up waking up one day with brown hair and blue Miami nails, like, what about other women? And should we be having these conversations? Um, would they be helpful? Would they support other women? Um, and I also felt really tired from having my own company for 10 years, and I felt excited about a co-host collaborative piece and doing it together. And so I kind of like soft said it to you one point, like, we should have a podcast. And then I was like, no, no, like we should have a podcast.

SPEAKER_00 10:22

I think we went back and forth in voice memos for a little while and we started talking, and then we're like, these conversations would be really relevant, I think, to other women. I think we started to feel such like a deep resonance in starting at that conversation at dinner to the point where we were like voice memoing every day, and then we were like, this seems like stuff that's going on collectively. It seems like stuff that would be really helpful and relevant to other people outside of us, especially that component that I loved that you incorporated about the shame. Because I don't even think that that's necessarily just because maybe we have some degree of notoriety in our careers. I think it's all women because we're conditioned to be perfect, you know, we're conditioned to keep it all together, to make the relationship look a certain way. And we feel inherent shame when it's not that way. And even with our sisters, we are like, no, no, I wanna, I want people to think I have this perfect relationship. And especially when we're public and putting it out there, like, how can we be women in an empowering space if our own relationship and our own closed doors is not in alignment with that? Like, how can we? There's a misalignment there that I think both of us being of integrity are gonna feel challenged by. And so I think I sitting on the other side of that dinner conversation was like, wow, blue eyes, brown hair, she's going really deep right now. She's going really authentic. I was like, wow, I love this. I was like, oh, the century. I have a story on sentry too. I was like, wait a minute, this is definitely collective. Like, this isn't just you or me. And in those moments of isolation when we're too alone to talk about things, we're never going to be able to have the experience of resonance with other women because we're not sharing them. We feel too, we feel uh too alone. We're like, no, I I can't share this with anyone. So therefore, now I'm definitely the only person that's experiencing this. So yeah, I think there was a lot of conversation there at dinner that was resonant for us and that brought brought up a lot. I think um the biggest component that really like struck me was wanting to put it out there and like Brene Brown says, like take it out of out of the dark. Like shame doesn't live in the light. And just thinking about speaking, very called to writing and very called to like sharing it with people so that we can put it out in the light.

SPEAKER_02 12:51

With our voices, because we've been we've been more right, we've been writing in some ways. But you had a slightly you were also called to start a podcast and you were thinking about that before that conversation.

SPEAKER_00 13:02

Good job. Yeah, totally. I was um after my separation, I was looking for podcasts of women.

Shame Belonging And Truth Telling

SPEAKER_00 13:10

I was looking for role models outside of like successful women in their late 30s and 40s that weren't married or didn't have kids or were recently separated or divorced, and I couldn't really find that representation. And I started to really dig into that because I was first of all kind of sad that there was, didn't seem to be a lot of representation. But also it seemed like that all women are not fulfilled unless they have all of it. Like we're we're supposed to have it all the family, the job, the kids, the the success. And it's like that just might not be the path for all of us. And so I really wanted to demonstrate what it looks like to be a woman in your late 30s and 40s that is living the life of her dreams. And it doesn't have to have the husband or the kids, or I mean, we both have dogs. We love our dogs, like very nourished by the relationship of mothering in other capacities.

SPEAKER_02 14:19

Absolutely. And that it can be on the menu to be a woman in this world, however, you want to be a woman in this world. And that's one thing I think we both lived very alternative lifestyles to traditional roles of being a woman in this world up until like we really we've bonded on peeing in the bush. Slash, I used to, I lived in a cabin 12 years ago in the middle of the woods. And I would go outside to pee because I love peeing on the land. And um Welcome to my life. Yes. And when I moved to this little cabin, one of my things was how I wanted to be rather than search for the man in the world that I was looking for to complete some part of my life. I was like, I'm gonna be the man that I want to date. I was 24, so I was not married. Um, and now I look at your life right now, and you're living, you know, we're just at your place and you're totally off the grid, and you're brushing your teeth outside, and we're just peeing in the bush with the photo shoot we did. And, you know, we really have lived alternative lives in a lot of ways. And I think that yeah, joy, fulfillment, and meaning can look like very different things. Um, and nothing wrong with traditional if you wanna, if if fulfillment is being a mother and having kids and all those pieces, hundred percent all for it, just to be very clear. But also if you're living in a different way or an alternative way, then we just want to put it on the menu. Like you can be a woman in any way that you want. And I think part of the permission to take up space as as women is to hear other women share their experiences, which is why also, you know, Sex in the City, Call Her Daddy, some of these conversational, also pivoting a little bit, but other podcasts and mediums that we thought about in starting this. Um, I think it's a permission piece of part of why we're doing this podcast is to give a space for women to find meaning and fulfillment and to not feel alone in in living their lives in a outside of the trad wife.

SPEAKER_00 16:22

Out of the trad wife.

SPEAKER_03 16:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:24

Yeah. Which, you know, I think, look, I just think one of the biggest components is we have to look at our conditioning. And you and I grew up watching, I mean, there is no Disney story that she ends up single, alone in a yurt on the north shore of Maui with her dog. Like, there's no stories. Like, it's like she meets the princess happily, prince happily ever after. And it's like we have to take note of like, okay, well, if I grew up the song lyrics, if you listen to song lyrics from our generation, you're like, well, of course, I think that I should have a husband and I search for this. I just think I've seen so many examples of women in their late 40s, early 50s, late 50s, and they're going through divorce. And I'm like, whoa, here I am, feeling so much like sadness going through a separation in when I'm 37. Like, imagine being 55. Imagine spending your whole life with your husband, 25 years, you raised children together, and then separating. And then maybe he wants to leave and like feeling like, whoa, like what kind of spin just happened on this story and what is my life now? And so I think like as much as we can preemptively planning ahead and thinking, is it smart for me to base my entire happiness on my kids, on my husband? Like, even placing that amount of um weight in their hands is unfair because the kids are gonna grow up and they're gonna move out. And I think, I mean, I'm not a mother, of course, obviously, but I think mothers are the first to say that like they lose so much of themselves in the process of motherhood and they have to really find themselves again after that. So is there a way or a place for us to make? And I love how you said on the menu, because can marriage be more of the side dish? Can the kids be more of the appetizer and not the full plate? Can we make it our dharma be a little bit more about us? Can we take back some of ourselves and some of what we love to do before we come to a place where we just feel defeated because maybe they've gone, maybe they've left our lives in one capacity or another, you know?

SPEAKER_02 18:44

And I've had so many conversations with women where they've said, Yana, is it bad that

Rethinking The Dream Life Script

SPEAKER_02 18:50

just being a mother isn't enough for me? And I'm like, no, enough gets to be honesty. Enough gets to be whatever it is. And I think that we all have dharma or purpose or something that is important that we fulfill for ourselves. And I think that making our relationship or marriage or the fact that we're a mother, our entire identity. It's like, no, there's a Hannah and there's a Yana here. And we have dreams and creativity and projects and things to birth that are not just children. And I mean, my dog is my first son, let's be very clear. Love our dogs. Zeus eat's like organic farm raised rabbit. Uh uh, he is like child. Yeah, me too. Zeus eat's better than me, I'm pretty sure. Yeah. Um, and they should. Yeah. Yeah. So it's it's just uh, I think we both have told the truth over and over and over and over again. And I think telling the truth is the fastest way to put your power back in your body. I always say the best way to take care of somebody is to be honest. So my intention with this podcast is to take care of anybody who listens by a hundred percent telling the truth and sharing my story. And I used to say that my job was sharing slabs of my heart with this world for the living. I've always loved that. Yeah, and that feels true. Um, and also I love how Elizabeth Gilbert says don't try and write another book trying to help people. Um, I think telling the truth helps ourselves. I think that it really does put the power back into our bodies and um give us permission to just be who we are, and it it repels people who don't resonate with who you are, but that's okay.

SPEAKER_00 20:37

Yeah. As it should. We don't want those people near us anyway. I I was having this visual visualization when you were saying that because I think of like bullies and I think of how bullies try to shame kids on the playground. And I was thinking about like a five-year-old version of me and how if kids had the emotional intelligence earlier in their lives to like flip the psychology on the bully to say, yeah, I tripped, I tripped, you tripped me. Like, so what? Instead of feeling like, oh, I just tripped in front of everyone, I'm so scared, like I don't want to say anything. The bully would be such a role reversal because now you come out and say, Yes, I fucked up, I did that, I'm human. And it makes everybody notice that that person is being a bully. And it's not about shaming the person that fell or messed up or did something wrong. It's about being able to notice, like, whoa, nobody should be making fun of anybody here. Like, we're all human, we all make mistakes, especially owning up to it is such a huge moment of reveal in humanity, in humility.

SPEAKER_02 21:51

Humility, yeah, humility. The Latin origin of the word of humility is to be thrown into the ground. And I'm like, I feel like there are some people who really struggle with saying that they're sorry or taking accountability or having humility. I think it's one of the most attractive characteristics in somebody's ability. Like, if you are not a leader who can say that you fucked up and you're sorry to your team, I don't really respect you. You're not a leader. You're not a leader because being being a leader is falling down the hill most of the time trying to figure it out as you fall. And we are gonna mess up. And that's one of the rules with people I work with in my company. It's like, hey, we are gonna say we're sorry. I'm gonna say I'm sorry, and you're gonna say you're sorry because we respect each other. And when you respect somebody, you have the humility to say that you're sorry. And it's not a power dynamic of I need you to say that you're sorry to have power. It's hey, we really respect one another enough to have the humility to say that we're sorry.

SPEAKER_00 22:48

I love when your Canadian accent comes out, she's sorry. She's not sorry, she's sorry. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:53

And also to also to segue on the not making your relationship your sole source of happiness. Uh-huh. I gotta say that my if I were to think about all the ROI in my life and everything that I've invested in, I gotta say that dating has had the worst ROI, especially in SoCal. Man, SoCal has been some some tough investment for me relationally. I'm gonna tell you I believe you right now. Can I say yes? I'm like, I'm going back to Canada, especially with where the world's at right now with everything. I'm like, Canada's looking better and better by the day. Well placed. Um, but yeah, I I I really feel, and I guess we could segue. Are we segwaying? We're seguing. Yeah. Yeah.

From Feminism To Boy Sober

SPEAKER_00 23:35

So our I'll ask, I'll ask you. Yana, are you boy sober right now?

SPEAKER_02 23:38

Yes. Yes, because we wanted to share. You guys are like boy sober. Are you celibate? Yes. Are you not dating? What are we doing? What does boy sober not voice over? Boy sober mean. Um, no, so uh we wanted it to be like feminism, but fun as well, like a bit of fun playfulness in the title and to be able to have raw, real conversations about being a woman that included dating, definitely included our dating lives. But but also not just that, we're gonna talk about abortion, miscarriage, you know, we're gonna talk about some of the other experiences in our life we've shared as writers that have been really um cathartic for ourselves, liberating for other women. Um, but yeah, as far as uh where I'm at with dating, um, well, I just told you it's it's been rough. It's so calculated. I'm not in LA. I can't even imagine. I'm uh I'm in Encinitas, which is near San Diego. I would close it up, I wouldn't touch LA with a stick. Um, but I I really um I find that I try and culturally explain this sometimes, but in Canada, there's a difference between being nice and kind. And kindness is this sincerity, this like hearty stew. When I was born in Whitehorse in the Yukon, which is basically in Alaska, and it's so cold up there. Yeah, it's so cold up there and so wild in the bush that if somebody is broken down on the side of the road, you stop for them because they could die. So there's a real in SoCal, people drive around in golf carts and um it is a vacation and it is a culture of freedom and it is a and there no one texts you back because you don't text people back when you're on vacation. There's a real like vacation energy, which is beautiful, but it doesn't really breed or shape, I feel, that sincerity and that kindness that I was used to living in a smaller growing up in Canada and in a smaller town. Um and so I I yeah, I I've really um it hasn't been great. I love the surfing, that's why I'm there and the warmth. I tried to live in Costa Rica, but I I we'll share more about that later. I really didn't feel a sense of physical safety in the place I was living. There was a lot of rape and violence with women, and um, I tried. Costa Rica was the place I went to first, and then I chose Encinitas afterwards. Um, but yeah, I am just getting out of, I'm going through a breakup. Sorry to hear that. Yeah, and uh or congratulations. Yeah, either or going through a breakup, and I actually on the plane over to Maui, one of my exes from gosh, I'm gonna say 15 years, like a long time ago, um, was gonna be in LA and reached out being like, hey, um, just as a just to reconnect and say hello. And I was remembering in our conversation that we had, um, he was so kind with me. And I was going, moving forward in dating. So I will be dating everybody. No, I'm not, I'm not celibate, I'm not going voiceover, I'm not taking like a what's it called, like a man diet. Um that's the next podcast.

SPEAKER_00 26:58

Man diet. That's 2.0. Yes. Yeah, yes. From voiceover to man diet. Yes. It's like keto to paleo, you know. It's the same thing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:09

Carnivore, lion. But I was just feeling into on the plane ride over that because my last the relationship I was in didn't have play or fun or kindness. And this ex, you know, we would have so much fun together. We would have water fights in his car. I remember we watched Drive with Ryan Gosling, and you know how he puts on those like leather gloves in the car. He picked me up for a date like 15 years ago, and he had those gloves on, and we just had so much fun together. I was like, God, dating hasn't been fun in like 10 years. I don't know, in your 20s, you have way less trauma. In your 30s, you're like, I don't know, man. Like, so I was like, I get to have some fun. And I also really care about being with someone who is just so kind. I'm also not only kind, but I have a value of generosity. And I think that to be kind is a type of generosity to the people that you are in relationships.

SPEAKER_00 28:07

And like a thoughtfulness. I can feel that you're looking for like a thoughtfulness.

SPEAKER_02 28:11

Yeah. And also because this person didn't really respect or I don't know, understand or appreciate my work. Like one of the first comments when I said, um, have you seen my Instagram or my my work was we shouldn't talk about that. He do you think he felt threatened? I I don't know, but I I believe that our partners should not just support us, but fucking celebrate the work that we do in this world because the world is really hard and a lot of assholes out there, and it is going to be full of putting yourself out there in a public way is gonna be full of criticism and judgment and competition. All you need is the cheerleader. That's what you need is a cheerleader who has your back and is your team. And I I never felt that. And so I feel like I'm I'm not currently dating, but in walking into dating after this last relationship, I want someone who is kind and who um really understands, supports, but then celebrates and is cheerleading and not just the keynote moments. Like, of course, you want to come when I'm a keynote at an event. Like that's a fun hero. An event. Yeah. But like the little moments, like what I realize is I want somebody who's gonna watch a recording of a seminar that I teach once a year. So they really feel what my facilitator is like when I'm working with people. I don't want someone who's just gonna be there to read my books at the book launch event or go to a those are like the fun ego moments. What about those other moments of celebration? And the men that I've loved being with the most have been in the comment section cheering for me before we even were together. Like there was a resonance, there was an understanding, there was a um, yeah, it's a resonance. And uh that really got highlighted for me. So I want to have fun. I'm like, we were talking about this. We're part of the reason also we're doing this podcast is we're like less self-help, more fucking joy. Joy is self-help. Let's have some joy, let's have some laughter, some lightness. Um, we want to put one of our genres of this as comedy. We'll see how funny it ends up being.

SPEAKER_00 30:19

I'm really not very funny. I want to be funny, but I'm like, I maybe I get I get one or two, maybe, but like I definitely need to be funny.

SPEAKER_02 30:28

But that's my consensus is moving through a breakup, wanting being very clear because one of my mentors, Gay Hendrix, who I love, says universe is a cocktail waitress.

SPEAKER_00 30:38

I know nobody drinks anymore because it's 2025, but there's a large majority of people still drinking out there, but I love that in the conscious community.

SPEAKER_02 30:47

In conscious community, I'm like, does anyone drink anymore? So um Gay Hendrix says, the universe is a cocktail waitress. So when you go through a breakup, list off the things that you really loved about somebody, but then go, and I want. So like I want kindness, I want play, I want joy, I want a cheerleader, I want someone who's gonna celebrate my work moving forward and really resonate with it. You know, if you don't want to, so many women are like, I don't really want a girl boss, like I am a fucking girl boss, so don't date me. Like, and I'm also a life coach. I'm an emotionally intelligent

SoCal Dating Kindness And Fun

SPEAKER_02 31:20

and I'm also highly intelligent. And if you do not want to be with somebody who is interested in self-growth, don't come fucking knocking on my door. So, Hannah. So quick move, quick shift, quick shift. Uh, that's how I feel. I'm in the hot seat. Yeah. So are you dating? What's your?

SPEAKER_00 31:40

How's your I'm intentionally boy sober? I'm not man sober. No, I'm just kidding. Well, that's true. Yeah, yeah. Um, so we all are well aware that I'm on the backside. So I I'm still fully in acknowledgement that I am still grieving through a super difficult and challenging um breakup. I I think that, like, you know, things become a lot heavier as we get older and we find ourselves with assets and pets and maybe kids and going through divorce and loss and grief and losing our parents, and all of these different things will happen to all of us, not necessarily at the same time or all of them to each of us, but we all go through all of them throughout our lives. We all will lose our parents, we will all lose pets. Um, we may all lose children, we may all lose, you know, there's a lot in there to unpack. And so I just think that grief component is something that I've really honed in on as my biggest teacher. I think I've had to surrender into a spiritual practice with the utmost amount of trust in the future that has um been honestly like I think one of my biggest like karmic lessons in this life and something that I was destined for. So, as hard as those moments are, and as hard as it's been, I will sit in full acknowledgement that I think that everything that should have happened did. And um still holding myself very securely and closely because I'm aware that I'm still going through that grief process. Um, and to get into something a little bit lighter, I jumped on all the apps immediately, pretty much immediately after, because I had never done that before. I had been in long-term relationships. I was a serial monogamist. Like I had had long-term serious boyfriends and celibacy bouts in between. I was celibate for nearly two years before I met my more recent partner, and I was celibate for a little while before the partner before that. And those were both like four-year relationships. So I wanted to do something different. I was like, I want to see what all the kids are talking about. Like, let me get on here. I know how to make a profile. So I think I got on like every app known to me. And I was like, this is fun. And I did start dating someone for a little while. And I think like it was a little too soon. It was a little bit too soon, but I also think it was the best decision for me in that moment because things were so bleak. Like it was more tragic than I've really I was like remotely concerned to the point where I was reaching out to friends, being like, yo, you guys need to keep an eye on me right now. Like things are super borderline. And I think like we'll have deeper conversations that'll get more into that and like talk more about that. But just to keep it um, you know, more surface level for now and get to like the main point, I think that having that extra tier of support for that moment was like really relevant for me. Um I recognized right away there was like this moment where it seemed like he wanted to be monogamous, and truthfully, I was not ready to be monogamous. So I think even going back to um there is an emphasis on men speaking in a way that we women have not always been encouraged to do in the same capacity. And so when men use their voices to say things like, you know, I want to be monogamous, I felt myself being like, oh, okay, well, he wants to be monogamous. So I'll like, I'll try to do that for him. When really I should have been like, hey, I just ended an engagement. I'm not ready to be monogamous. I'm really enjoying dating right now. Like, I don't want to do that. And I had that moment where I could have taken advantage of that and I didn't because I wanted um to do what he wanted and to potentially like see that through like more than I wanted to stand up for myself. And that little like nuance of time happens so early in the meeting of people that I think it's exceptionally hard for any age woman. I mean, you know, I'm 38 and three months. And like for me to still come across those moments where I'm like not fully standing and speaking in truth for the sake of someone else's comfort or desire is like astounding to me. Cause I'm like, well, you know, imagine being a 14-year-old girl. Like, imagine how easily persuaded and taken along on journeys we are as women when we're not taught, like, yeah, honey, you can say whatever you want. Like when the whole crowd stands up to cheer for us. Like that has been the experience of most white males in our society and culture that we see demonstrated in big roles. We don't have to go into which exactly, but like it's a different experience. Exactly. It's a different experience. So I think just like standing in full acknowledgement of that, I think those are my pieces of gold, you know. And I think there were several of those throughout the time and experience. And that relationship ended really well. It's like, let's just be friends. And we were like, okay, yes, like eventually six months. And I was like, yes, totally. And then there, you know, there has been like a little lapse. Like, I think I was like really excited to move on and just be friends. And that was something he went with like really strongly, like, yeah, like the best of friends. And I was like, Yeah, okay, great. Like, I'm really excited for that because I felt like because we jumped into the romantic side of relationship too soon, we weren't, we didn't have any time to really be friends first. Neither of us were being fully candid. We were also both going through our own separate huge intensity issues on our own. There wasn't enough space for us to do truth telling. And it changes the dynamic when the situation is romantic versus platonic. And so I felt a little bit of that happening. And since like I felt a little bit lit, like let down, if all truth be told, just in like there not being a whole lot of aftercare or follow-up. And there might still be, this only ended a few months ago, but like I felt a little lapse in the friendship component, a little let down, where I was a little bit like, huh, okay, that doesn't feel as good as if we like really, we really, we really followed up with something there. We were really like checked in on each other because we did go through such a difficult part in both of our journeys

Apps After Heartbreak And Boundaries

SPEAKER_00 38:45

to some degree together that was shared quite open-heartedly, that I would have wanted or expected a little bit more um care of even a shorter dynamic than um what actually turned out to happen thus far. That being said, I was not ready to be monogamous. I'm still not, and I'm working on I I love the online dating space because I love practicing my truth telling and communication and boundary work because, like this relationship is an example of, I haven't, I haven't been doing that enough. Like I'm still finding those tumbles in the partnership where I'm like not fully speaking my truth. And so, like when you don't have as much skin in the game, like with these potential relationships, it's really easy to stand strong in your truth and be like, nope, I'm not ready to be monogamous. I'm not ready to do this. Like, I'm not ready to say that I'm not going to have biological children. I'm not ready to say that I am going to have biological children. Like you have to really get clear and stand strong in what you're going for, or else you will be susceptible to what someone else wants. And I think being conditioned, we as women will always be the ones that are more susceptible because of our conditioning. So yeah, I think it's really good communication, boundary work. I like the apps here and there. What apps are you on? Okay. What apps am I on? Bumble. Um you on Raya?

SPEAKER_02 40:21

Raya. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:22

Yeah. And I will say like Raya, like the 10X, the 10x, the um content is like leveled up on something like, you know, like guys typically don't have great photos on dating apps, period. Raya, like, they are all content creators. I'm like, God, where are they? It's just amazing. You know, it's good, just like for swipes and scrolls. I really don't spend a lot of time on there, at least at this point. But, you know, that's the funny thing is like, as a woman, you will get hundreds of messages and likes and like you don't really have to spend a lot of time on there, like swiping as a woman, because you already have all of the options in the inbox, inbox. And that's where I think sometimes it's kind of funny that we always think like odds are slated against us as women because maybe we're more in tune with like wanting partnership and kids and marriage, which may be true and valid, but also we always have a hundred X the options as men do. Like we just we just always do as women. Maybe not every single case, but most cases. I'll try not to generalize.

SPEAKER_02 41:31

Which will be, but I yeah, we'll talk. It's yeah, but it's create safe. There's a lot to dive into and all that. But overwhelmed on dating apps.

SPEAKER_00 41:42

You don't get very overwhelmed. I don't spend very much time, like I uh Virgo energy. I very streamlined the process. So like maybe once a week, maybe bi-weekly, like once bi-weekly. I was doing it a little bit more, but then like I said, we went monogamous for a little while and then we went friendship. So then after that relationship, again, immediately after, I dove right back in because it's fun going out with people. Like, I really enjoy spending time with people. I really enjoy meeting people. I have been an entrepreneur, a content creator, a yoga teacher from home for over 10 years. And I live in the deep jungles of Haiku on the north shore of Maui, Hawaii. It is the most isolated island chain in the world. Like, I don't meet a lot of people. It's not like cities where we're all like going out for drinks and happy hour, you know, like there's no happy hour here. There's no DoorDash or Instacart or Amazon in two weeks, you know what I mean? Like, so I really enjoy like just getting to know people. But that being said, all my profiles are set to just for friends. I tell all of them if a guy asks me out, like, hey, look, just want to be super clear. Like, I am fresh out of a relationship. I am not moving quickly. I want to really get to know someone before anything romantic happens. And that's another component of speaking my truth that feels really good, like exceptionally good, where I can just be like, hey, we're just want to like make it clear, we're just friends. There is no, because it's so easy in our culture to just like jump to like romanticism and like sex, of course, like all those things. And it's like, I'm like, whoa, I don't know you. Like, don't know you and really don't care how attractive you are. Like, I'm not looking for a six foot two man bun with a 12-pack animal. Man in finance.

SPEAKER_02 43:30

What? A man in finance. Like a man in finance. Man in finance, six feet name.

SPEAKER_00 43:34

Oh, sorry. I'm pretty bad with pop culture. I can be really bad at pop culture. But I mean, you know, looks are fading and we're all pushing 40, and everybody's gonna have some things. There's gonna be some hair loss, there's gonna be some beer bellies. Like, I want someone that like I really like that represents a lot of qualities to me that have nothing to do with how they look. And if they're really attractive, you're more inclined. To want to like immediately jump into something romantic with them. And I'm like, no, like it's not enough for me. Like it's not enough for me that you look pretty. I'm gonna need some depth here, you know? And of course, it's nice to be able to have both. And I'm sure there's like some flow between it. But I think honestly, with swipe right culture, like the guys that are attractive know that they can sleep with a different woman every night. And that has alluded to an imbalance in the dating scene where they don't really cherish women anymore, like powerful, strong women with careers, like they're like actually probably more intimidated by that because they know that they could potentially go for other women that maybe don't make as much money that are looking for a little bit more stability or safety from them and have them be more pandering or catering to what they want.

SPEAKER_02 44:52

Am I right? Am I am I on a thread here? No, I'm I'm enjoying it. And I think that I think, you know, I've had a totally different experience with dating apps.

SPEAKER_01 45:03

I also really didn't like Raya. I was like, wow, there's a lot of like no one really talked to each other. I felt like there was a lot of ego.

SPEAKER_02 45:10

Like I was like, I don't care that you have sexy photos if you're not gonna like ask me good questions. Oh, I've never reached out. I don't think I I have ever reached out to anyone. Like at least on hinge, like there's dudes with date like fish photos, but like at least they like talk to you. So, you know, holding their fish because I'm supposed to. Oh, right, right, right. That fish they just caught or something. Full of muggles, but like at least they're gonna be medicating. Fishermen. Totally. Um, no, I I think that um I've also had conversations with men who are on dating apps who swipe a lot and don't get dates. And I think that they think there's stats out that there's like a top popular, there's certain men who get all of the interaction, and there's other men who are really in pain around. I'm getting no dates, no, you know, um activity there.

SPEAKER_00 45:55

90% I've heard that 90% of the women date 2% of the men on dating apps. Yeah. I'm just, you know what it?

SPEAKER_02 46:03

I think maybe also because our work is virtual, like we're alone in our houses, and um, I'm also I'm a poet, so I'm very romantic. Like I'm like, I really want the romance and the intentionality and the like I surprise men because I'm like, absolutely come to my door to pick me up for a date and open the car door for me. And I don't care that if I'm a feminist, yeah. I want you to treat me. Like I want chivalry. Chivalry is not dead. Not dead. No, agreed. I dated a dude from Texas who really like woke that up inside of me of how nice it felt. Texas gentlemen. Love a Texas children. It's true. They are gentlemen. Yeah, they can be. Yeah. And uh yeah, we won't generalize, but yeah. Um, and I love that space. And I I think that for me, I get overwhelmed with dating apps. And I know that maybe that's a privilege I imagine with a lot of dudes, but like I get overwhelmed with how much comes at me, and I find that I would start a bunch of conversations and then just kind of black out and be like, I don't want to surround any of these people, there's too much going on. Um, and and then the actual experience, like you really need to like smell somebody's armpit, you know. Like there's real, there's real physical love that you said that somebody smells. How do they feel in my nervous? It's a real thing, you know? And I am like, if you want to talk about somebody who can do a like, I'm a poet, y'all. Like you want to talk to me, you want to do a long distance text for a while, you want to FaceTime, like I've got all the words. But I just wanted to be, I feel I feel like for me, um, it it's almost like I got to avoid certain degrees of vulnerability in texting or getting to know somebody because I am so good with words and I know what, oh yeah, I could literally make a side hustle writing. Um, if anyone needs a, you know, a dating app profile, I feel like we could do that.

SPEAKER_00 47:55

Oh my God. I've literally said that's what I want to do for work before. I've had people be like, Do you think you can help me out? Cause I'm like, I'm great at making profiles. That's why I went on there. I was like, oh, I got a profile bag.

SPEAKER_02 48:06

Yeah. People would write me being like, Holy shit, this is so good. And I'd be like, I know, I know. Um and and so I've I found that on the the dating apps. I also you talked about this, we were talking earlier. I didn't want to interrupt you. Um I I feel one of my values in relationship, and something that's really missing in our culture today, is that I think we should exit with the grace that we enter, like with the same respect. I want to do a whole pocket.

SPEAKER_00 48:31

I literally have the post saved in my archive that says this, right?

SPEAKER_02 48:36

That I want to teach up. Okay, I know it's such a because it's it's such a it's almost as if people think that other people are disposable because there's so many options. Yes. And respect is a huge value for me. And I I just I remember one instance where I was talking with somebody and something happened, and they even like you know, closed the chat out so abruptly. I was like, this doesn't feel human. There's a there's a real element of respect and human missing. And then more and more, actually, I remember I was dating a guy who on paper sounded so good. Like on paper, and I was telling another guy in my life about him, being like, you know, he's got this and the career and the things, and kind of noting all of these achievements. And my friend Taylor turned to me and he was like, How do you feel when you're with him? And I was like, Oh, actually, not that great.

SPEAKER_00 49:34

It's huge.

SPEAKER_02 49:35

And so we can't really feel how we will feel with somebody in a conversation. And that is what I want. And so I am a complete introvert who like I surf like this break

Swipe Culture Respect And Real Chemistry

SPEAKER_02 49:50

where there's like one person. Like I'm like the lone wolf of the ocean that I'm in my house working all day. Um, I'm not going to the vibey places, like talking to people. That's not my, I'm very introverted. Same. Um, and so I'm I'm in this place too with dating where I'm like, I want I want to go to sleep at like eight o'clock. It's hard. I want to I want to wake up early. I don't want to socialize while I'm surfing because surfing's where I rinse the energy of my day off because I work with people and emotions, and that's important. Um, and I so it's just kind of like, well, where will I meet that person? Do I need to start looking up in a grocery store? Probably more. Need to be making more eye contact in the world. Yeah. And so it's I I'm I I also don't know, like sometimes people meet really good people on dating apps and they have a really good um experience. Yeah. And I, I mean, I've I'm not gonna say I've I've met some even people who've ended up being friends. Um, but I um we're filming this podcast in somebody's house that I've been on a dating app that I never met. Who I also just want to say, I know this podcast is called Boy Sober. And there are gonna be moments where you feel the parts of us that are cynical and fucking tired of dating, but like there are really good men out there. And we're actually in the house of a man who is such a good man right now, who's generous and kind and has gifted us pretty much everything but his truck. Next up, the Raptor, the cruise, who I just want to say, like, there are really good men, and this is not a man-hating podcast. Yeah. Um, this is yeah, because um, we're also gonna do a whole episode on what feminism actually means and what patriarchy, patriarchy actually means, because people have the wrong perspective of those two things a lot in this world. But this is definitely um a place where we're just gonna talk, we're really just talking about our lives and our stories. And um and yeah, so just having some real honest with our voices, because we've used our pens and our little tiny screens. But I think for you and I, this is a different medium of expression, which feels good. We were like, we've been ready for to talk. We've been doing weekly meetings for months, intentionally. Also, we we walked into this business um creating, and it is turning into a kind of a business together, really intentionally, with taking our time to the point that it was painful for both of us at one point because we're like, we don't want to do the thing.

SPEAKER_00 52:33

So shout out to Yana's hinge date for the space. Yes, yeah, from like eight months ago or something. Yeah. Um so yeah, I would say that I'm not a hundred percent boy sober, but I am mostly boy sober since that last relationship. Mostly um 50% intentionally celibate, at least 50%.

SPEAKER_02 53:00

Yeah, and I'm feeling awake to what I want in a man, but I also feel like I'm taking a total nap when it comes to dating. Like I'm not, I'm tired. We have to say up past past eight. Being in a relationship with conflict constantly is so exhausting. Ig exhausting. So emotionally exhausting. It's a lot. So much bandwidth. I also want to be very clear it wasn't physical conflict, but emotional conflict and um and cycles and pat and you know, relationships that can pull out cycles and patterns in people, but um I'm tired. I'm tired of and I feel like I've been tired of dating for a while. Like it hasn't been as fun. Like I remember dating in my 20s was way more fun.

SPEAKER_00 53:40

I've never really dated before. Okay. So that's interesting. Like that's a that's an interesting point. Like, I feel like that's why I felt really called to it at this point because I'm like, whoa, I've actually never really dated. I just happened to like bump into men that I found attractive, and then we would date for four years, like throughout my adult life. And I never really like went out with different guys to like have dinners. I totally get it, it does get a little tiring. Like you have to work yourself up to a certain place. Like right before I left for Sedona, I had like at least two or three dates like on the books. And honestly, like I was just too exhausted. I was like, oh, I have to cancel these. So I think part of it is like also we as like empowered women that are kind of like quote unquote doing it all in terms of like our careers, our lives, our dogs, our jobs, all the things. Like, it's a lot to then be like, oh, and now we need to go out and like put time and effort and energy into dating, which your time is such a precious commodity. Like you really are giving someone that time, you know, by doing that. It's an investment.

SPEAKER_02 54:45

It's an investment, it's a huge emotional investment. And uh, and Hannah, you and I also take really good care of ourselves. Like we mentally, energetically, emotionally, physically have care practices, and I think hours spend hours on our relationships with ourselves every day. Um, and so in nurturing who we are, nurturing our businesses, nurturing our clients that we take care of, nurturing our our dog kids, um, and you mowing your entire lawn and weed whacking and like the landscaping that you do. Speciating a lot of different parts of myself right now. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's like that there's there's a lot there. And so yeah, it's not the main dish. Men are not the main dish right now. It's not the main dish.

SPEAKER_00 55:26

Not the main dish. We're trying to like make some space for an appetizer. Like turn into my space. Or if this is the attempt to make space that could, well, no, it'll never turn into my main dish. Oh, I want to be clear with that.

SPEAKER_02 55:38

When I say main dish, I I still would like a husband. And I think tell me about it. What would you like? No. Yeah. You know, I fluctuate and go back and forth on kids. Um, I've always felt that I would need a really incredible partnership to want to have a kid because it it requires so much of you that I wouldn't do it unless uh I always say like at least three or four-ish years of really knowing somebody and knowing that you're gonna be an incredible team and that you're both regulated and you know, have enough to give to a child. I think that um we our generation has done so much work around our attachment types and how presence and all those things affect us that I would want to be um, I'd want to be a really present mom and I'd want to really do it right. And that energy right now is going into my clients. Like my mother energy is fully being poured into the people that I I'm not I'm using it. Um, and um, I think we can be a mother of art, mother of business, mother of a lot of things. Um but yeah, I would like to, I I would like a life partner. And um as far as being married, I have a a chosen wound from my father for sure. Of like that's a wound piece for me is wanting to be chosen. So I don't know necessarily if it needs to be um a marriage, but there is a part of me that likes the idea of really being committed to in a big way. Um, because my experience with men has uh largely been more of a yeah, having ambivalence or having like having having somebody be so incredibly fucking sure about me feels really attractive. That part of proposal feels attractive of somebody being like, yes, this, it, you, let's go. Like this is a the hundred, like that's hot.

SPEAKER_00 57:38

Just make sure that the proposal is yeah, you never know what's gonna happen. Definitely. Yeah, totally also true. It's just like that's the biggest thing that like comes up for me when you say that is like we can have like it's hard because we're all always doing the work and evolving, and everybody has the right to leave at any point in any relationship. I wholeheartedly and fully agree agree with that. And also the amount at which you take on together as a team and commit to each other and the project and whatever else you take on is still the responsibility, regardless of whether the partnership ends. And so I think like there's just some of that coming up, like, well, they could ask you to marry, they could ask you to, you could get married and then something changes, you know? And so I think that component of being, and this kind of goes into alignment with what you were saying about people feeling like, oh, just cut somebody off. And there's a lot of like cutoff culture or like cancel culture around like, oh, that person, there's so many people, fish in the sea, whatever. But there's also something like you will never find the unique imprint of that person's DNA ever again in your life. And like there needs to be some emphasis and value placed on

Clean Heart Sheets And Closing

SPEAKER_00 58:55

each person and what they really mean to you in your life, and not just like wiping the slate clean every time. Like the unique bond that you guys had and shared is special. And it shouldn't just always be like, oh, on to the next, you know? And I think we are so quick to do that in our generation, just be like, oh, okay, next. And I just think when that plays into, you know, evolution of marriage and long-term relationship, it can kind of show up there a lot, you know? And it's like, oh, okay, wait. So now we're spending 25 years with someone and moving on at the drop of a hat, and like that's allowed and it's fine, and there's not a whole lot of aftercare or follow-up, you know, it's just like it feels a little bit amiss.

SPEAKER_02 59:44

Yes, and I want to clarify the the main dish comment because I think maybe metaphorically we were talking about different things. I have focused so hard on relationship and having a man be happiness or the thing that I've wanted most in my life, mainly from not having a father. There's like there's pieces and parts of that probably that feed in. Um but again, it's just there's definitely been a also a shift in I think it's really important that we don't source value in some of these pieces that we've talked about from that. So I from the relationship. Yeah. And just that um, I don't want to, I just want to be very clear though. Like, I don't want to do life alone. I feel like I've done life alone for a long time. I haven't been in long relationships, like you were sharing. Like, I really haven't. I've had like a year and a half relationship. So I've never lived with somebody. Like I would like to do life. I'm excited about the mundane shit like grocery shopping with somebody. And I feel pretty tired of being alone and excited for partnership. Um, but I also feel that I put so much energy into it that yeah, there's there's a shift happening in um, yeah, I think in my um, I did not jump back on the apps after this last breakup. Um was like, no, like I'm uh I need to take a breath. And um for myself, just because I I would, I'd be like, I gotta go forget love, gotta go find the guy, gotta like, but it and I'm just kind of going like, I don't know. I'm just gonna take a nap.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:23

What you need, yeah. There's no right strategy, I think. It's just about knowing yourself and being honest and moving forward in the way that you know is right and true. And there will always be like kind of like rhetoric, I feel like, around like what is the way to do something. Like a lot of people are like, oh, you need to be celibate for this long after your last. And it's like, no, like literally, I've done that for 10 years. Like, that's a great strategy. Everybody should do whatever they need to do within the process that they feel good and they know is what they need in that moment. Like, we can't we can't blanket statement people and be like, that I just feel like that happens so much where people are like, Oh, right, this is the way. Yeah. And it's like, there's not a way. The best way is for you to be like, Yeah, I really need to get out and learn some shit right now. And this is the way I need to do that for myself.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:09

Yes. And taking uh Deanne Whalen, one of my mentors, she once said something so beautiful to me. Maybe we can even segue and drop this one here. Is I remember I was starting to date somebody who was fresh out of a relationship, and she looked at me and she said, Are his heart sheets clean? His heart sheets? Yeah. Like, you know, have you changed the sheets on your bed? Oh. So, like, however, you want to change the sheets on your bed, but like change the sheets on your bed, take a breath, take a moment, like, you know, to that's gonna look different.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:37

The unconscious tumble into the from one relationship to the next is right kind of what culture advocates for.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:43

And sometimes, and we just it takes as long to clean your heart sheets of a partner as it does. And as you're sharing, part of you is engaging in dating, but also there's a part of you that you're keeping here of like I'm there, and I'm also holding this part of myself as I'm still grieving and moving. And there's no shame and there's no wrong or right. I think it's okay to participate as long as we're honest with people, we're taking care of them, of like, this is where I'm at, this is what I'm open to. 100%.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:11

And um, and yeah, um I think that that, I think that that's like, yes, that was perfectly said in just a way that like as long as we're moving around, moving forward in the world, being honest with ourselves and everybody else, and not necessarily, I don't know where I'm going with this. I feel like we're at time.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:31

I feel like we're like, we're at time. We're at time. We're at time. I feel like I need a break. Yeah, yeah. I feel like we need to eat a little snack. I was gonna say, I was gonna try it. I was trying to like-I was I did like what you said, but then I lost it when I started to talk about it. What were you saying? Um just changing your heart sheets and taking time. I think we could just do a little edit here and just do a little rap. So maybe we just think of a close for episode one of um you want me to riff and then you go. I don't really know what I'm gonna say yet.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:00

I wanted to, I wanted to finish saying what you were saying about the last thing, but I I forgot. I just I did like it though.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:06

I was talking about changing our heart heart sheath. There's no wrong or right way to go go about dating or going through a breakup.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:14

Um and oh, I think I was just thinking that like what I've noticed is like the more experiences we can have, like the more we can subject ourselves to different options or experiences, the more well-versed we have in learning about ourselves. And I think sometimes, like you talked about being an art introvert, I'm an introvert too. INF P I N F P. Um it can create a world where we're in a pretty controlled environment all the time and we don't always get those encounters with people. So I think for me, in like putting myself out there, quote unquote, with the dating world has been really good experiment for me to learn how I react in different environments so as to learn more about myself. And I feel like that's been like the strategy I've been going for. And sometimes it's it takes its toll, I would say, because you really are using yourself as an experiment. It's like you're kind of like psychologically experimenting on yourself, like, oh, I'm gonna, I'm gonna try and put myself out there to some degree and see how this goes. You know, it's kind of like fuck around and find out. And I just like saw this amazing meme that was like, to fuck around is normal, but to find out is spiritual. And I was like, oh my God, I resonate with that so much because you don't know how it's gonna land, right? But you're like being brave enough to step onto the court, to step into the arena and be like, it's okay. I trust myself to enough to know that I'll be fine, regardless of putting myself into these circumstances that are like dicey.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:52

I like, I like how you're dating. I like the intentionality of how you're like, I like when you're sharing about it. I think people forget that dating is also connecting with a part of yourself through the experience with other people. And that you learn like there's gold. There's real, my therapist said that to me. He's like, we're getting gold out of this relationship. Even the hard ones. Oh, you get especially the hard ones. Yeah, that's that's we don't process joy, we process pain. So it's in often in the in the harder parts that we have the biggest, and we'll do a whole other pod. I am so willing. So I love yeah, the learning and the growth that comes through that. But I feel like that might be a wrap on episode one. I think that is a wrap.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:30

I feel like we're we're here and we we've touched on a lot of different topics there. Are we gonna go like deeper into the topics on the next one? Yeah, we can.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:38

I also just wanted to say to for anyone listening, like, welcome. And one of the things I think we're all searching for is belonging in this world. So if you resonate with us in these conversations, like, hey, you belong, welcome here. Um I really want to pull out a seat at the table for anybody that finds value or resonance in what we're sharing or any part of it. And we don't expect you to be resonant with everything. Hannah and I are super different and we're here to co-host together, but you may be like, Oh, I resonate with that or not that. But like um, you are just, yeah, I just wanted to say welcome and thanks for tuning in. There's so much to listen to in this world, there's so much to pay attention to. And I feel like our presence is such a valuable commodity. So thank you for tuning in for the gift of your attention. Thanks, Yana. I love that.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:28

Thank you so much for closing it out and leave us a five star review.