#8 Adam Yee: A Conversation with the Host of My Food Job Rocks

Adam's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/itsmeadamyee/

Nathan's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nathan-schmidt-810756139/

Website: progressusolutions.com

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:01

One, two, three. Welcome everyone. I'm Nathan Schmidt, the host of the CPG Level Up Podcast, where we bring CPG talent and leadership together to explore trends, elevate careers, and uncover strategies that power the products consumers rely on every day. Before we get started, I wanted to add a disclaimer. I'm a founder of a recruitment firm, and in this podcast, we have conversations with industry leaders within CPG. Just because someone is a guest of the podcast, that does not imply they are looking or seeking new employment opportunities. With that said, I have the honor to have a conversation with Adam Yee, who is a food scientist, host of the My Food Job Rocks podcast and serial entrepreneur. And today we dive into why RD comes in waves at CPG startups, the reality of building products in CPG, when brands should bring RD in-house versus leverage consultants or co-packers, why RD professionals must develop sales and people skills to grow their careers, and how AI is becoming a practical tool for formulation speed and efficiency within product development. I hope you enjoy this episode and feel free to share with someone you think will find value. Hey Adam, how's it going? How are you? I'm doing good. I'm doing it's great to have it's great to have you on the podcast here. I I must say I am uh maybe slightly starstruck here. I uh kind of listened to a couple of your episodes uh uh that that you have at uh my food job rocks and a little bit of the segment that you're doing on the CPG Studcast. But uh great to have you on on the uh on the pod on the CPG Level Up Podcast here. So uh appreciate you coming on the line. Um for listeners listeners here, I'd love for you to start just talking a little bit about uh a little bit of an overview of Adam and um a little bit of the progression in your career and we'll go from there.

SPEAKER_01 1:56

Yeah, um well, always great to help kind of people tell other people's stories, especially in the food industry. I've always advocated for people to create stuff where they can share stories. And whether that be TikToks or YouTube videos or um or even podcasts, I I always think there should be more stories in the food industry that should be told. Um, with that segue point, 10 years ago, I started a podcast called My Food Job Rocks. Um it has over 300 episodes. Um, I still do interviews because I just love doing it. And it was just really, it made me feel like I was learning things all the time. Uh through all the guests that I've interviewed, they've not only become really good friends of mine, but also um mentors in a sense. Um and you know, in some cases, I've also been starstruck with some of the um guests I got on. So we've had celebrity chefs like Robert Irvine and uh Andrew Zimmern, who funny enough are just PR people just reaching out to me saying, Hey, we found you on Google. Uh do you want to interview these guys? Um, but also, you know, I would say like some of the other more uh like bigger guests that I felt more starstruck from was like uh Abby the Food Scientist or Hydroxide from TikTok, which you know, Abby the Food Scientist has a really awesome YouTube channel talking to food scientists or talking about food science, and then hydroxide does a TikTok. She has like, I don't know, 400k like followers, like it's crazy. Um and I think that's actually like more impressive because they have to deal with like the hard audience. My Food Java Rock specifically focuses on you know the B2B, I assume just like this podcast. Um, so we you know, and the the underlying reason is because uh I want people to think I'm really cool and eventually uh work with them. So uh I I'm very bland about that.

SPEAKER_00 3:39

I love it. I love it. So what what are you doing for for work now here? I mean, you've talked a little bit about the podcast, but you've also uh had some uh startup ventures and looks like you're you're at a at a company right now. So for your day work, what what are you doing?

SPEAKER_01 3:58

Yeah, so I'll go all the way back to the beginning. Um graduated with a bachelor's degree in Cal Poly, Sanispo. I was there actually last week to do some advisory role stuff. Uh I was criticizing their uh curriculum for next year, which is fun. Um you know, they gave me free dinner, they give me a free dinner and I get to like just talk about stuff. Um and so after graduating, I went to Phoenix, Arizona. I worked at a granola bar factory for like a couple of years. Um, this specifically like a Costco brand, one for like 10 hours a day, like for five days straight. Um kind of got burnt out of that. And then I decided to go to a company called Isogenics, which was more on the corporate side of product development. Uh, and that's where I designed protein bars. Um, whey protein, plant protein was getting um bigger at that time. And then I then started that podcast when I just enjoyed my corporate job a lot. Uh, and how I started the podcast was um a company called Food Grads, which is a very fledgling-like company, recruiting for most. Um, they were sharing an article saying uh at the time, which is funny in hindsight, like computer science was getting really, really, really popular. Um, and the food industry wasn't because it was pretty hard to recruit talent and it's pretty hard to get them to a middle of nowhere place and work in a factory. So they had this initiative. Um, funny enough, they had the hashtag My FoodJobRocks. I collaborate with them, um, and then we eventually launched a podcast called My Food Job Rocks, and I just started interviewing people every week. Um at around 102 episodes, I was able to get like PR people and also um authors who um found uh we found authors to be really good at um wanting to promote their work on a podcast. So I interviewed this author named Paul Shapiro, he was also VP of Humane Society, and eventually um through a couple months, uh he asked if I knew any food scientists. And I said, Well, I'm a food scientist, what are you thinking about? And imagine we started a company called Better Meat Co. that raised around in total $60 million. We have a product that we collaborated with with Purdue Farms that's still on the market um for I think around seven years now, called Purdue Chicken Plus. And um, and that's and that was a super fun project. Like that took a year in development working with a giant meat manufacturer um because they were just so hungry for innovation and they're they felt like they're behind. A lot of lessons learned on that specific section, but uh you know we we were able to do it, and um there's a there was a lot of great lessons there. Um decided to leave that uh about you know two years in. Um funny enough, got a job at WeWork in Austin, Texas. Uh I was managing their food lab. Unfortunately, the pandemic hit, and when you combine a co-working space with a um with a pandemic, you just know the writings on the wall. Um they got headhunted for a biotech company called Motif Food Works, which was a kind of a competitor to impossible. Um, so much of a competitor that impossible eventually sued them. That cut so impossible is no longer in existence. Um Motif is no longer in existence uh because of that, which is really you know shocking to understand because this motif, this biocompany, raised like $300 million uh and now it just like disappeared um off the face of the earth. Uh so that was fun. Um during that time at Motif, I left before everything went pretty bad. Um I got the itch again to start another startup, this time in consumer packaged goods. So I partnered up with a another CPG founder. Um, his name's Eric Wu from Gainful. Um and he had a pretty successful uh company, but he wanted to do something more sustainable. Uh and then we started Sobo Foods. Uh, it's much easier to raise as a second-time founder. Uh, so we were able to get a couple million and then make a dumpling company. We're around an I think 250 stores, but uh I think I'll just say this. Like I'm pretty open about saying this. Like he did let me go um about two years ago, and uh, and I think there's a lot of reasons why, but generally you don't need RD once you complete the product in a CPG because distribution matters a lot more at that time. So RD comes in waves, is what I learned. I took that knowledge and I was like, okay, well, that's interesting. Um, I started two companies with an RD background, so I decided to essentially consult. And I started this firm called UmaiWorks, and it's just a it's a boutique firm. I'm the only guy there, I'm not hiding anything. And I just helped founders with just an idea generally um make their product. And there's a lot of pitfalls that can happen in consumer packaged goods. There's there's advice, but it's not good tactical advice I've learned, or anything that has tactical advice, you have to pay for it. Um, and there's always and every use case is different. And so um what I generally put as a unique edge in my kind of technical consultancy is that I because I'm a serial entrepreneur and uh you know these pro these companies that I've made are still alive, which you know, are they thriving? Uh you don't know until you see the finances, but they are alive. Um they uh they are you know they they there's a lot of lessons in there, and there's a lot of lessons on great entrepreneurs. And I think sometimes you just don't have those lessons imparted when you start a food business. And they're they're kind of like background psychology lessons, like understanding risk management, understanding um inventory, understanding that your product will change from you know making your kitchen to a commercial kitchen to a copacker, and understanding the trade-offs as you kind of scale your brand. And most trade-offs involve money and values. So uh one example is like, okay, well, if you let's say want an organic certification, how important is that to your brand? Um, what are the trade-offs in that? If it is important, go for it. But if you can save a lot of money and that's worth it to you, um maybe you don't have to do it. But and you know, it also has to depend on customer interaction and gathering data, which very cognizant about. Um currently I'm doing that. And I am also a master's student in uh North Carolina State University. The consultancy has paid for all that. Um, I still do consultant work. Uh I always joke, I joked at supply side that um uh I I'm a consultant who has to pay for grad school. So um that's kind of what I'm doing now. In NC State, we can we're gonna go into it probably, but uh, I'm doing a lot of work on getting a get doing a more measured approach on understanding AI in the food industry. I think a lot of people are are um kind of rushing in this a bit with a bit more of a corporate mindset, which has a lot of from what I learned in Silicon Valley, um, just has a lot of um bad consequences. And I think a more measured academic approach to studying this is um well, having learn a lot. So that's that's a lot. I said a lot, but uh you know that's I love it.

SPEAKER_00 10:39

I love it. That's phenomenal. Now, did you always envision when you went into college, did you always envision this potentially being the trajectory of your career? Or were you going into your food science degree with just the mindset of all right, plugging into a brand or a business to business, kind of going up, going up the corporate, quote unquote corporate ladder from there? Uh, when did that entrepreneur bug really just kind of come alive in you?

SPEAKER_01 11:06

There was always something in college where I wanted to be an entrepreneur. Um, what I always tell people in college is like, why are you not taking advantage of all these free services in college like clubs or mucked already fraternities for already's never been in a fraternity, um uh jobs, research. Um, and I did all of that. Well, not the fraternity part, but I did the I I went and did an entrepreneur pitch competition. Um, I was more the technical guy. We had another guy do the pitch, but um, I decided to go there and I had a lot of fun doing that. I also entered competitions where um uh uh so us food science nerds, we have this annual comp uh annual conference called IFT called the Institute of Food Technologists.

SPEAKER_02 11:49

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 11:49

And um and it's all just all these food scientists together. The in the student realm, they would have these uh product development competitions that I really enjoyed doing. And um it was just phenomenal. I I could gather a group of five people, we could like make a product. Will we get it wrong? Yes, all the time, like like just in hindsight. But you know, it taught me a lot about creativity and a lot of things that I couldn't learn in lecture. And we were able to win, and winning feels really good, uh, especially when you beat you know more prestigious universities. Um, we were just like a local kind of second rate, I don't want to say second rate, that's kind of mean. Um, but we're you know, we're we're an underrated state school, right? And we were beating like like historic Ivy leagues like Cornell, who generally were winning all these things, and you know, that it's just a really amazing feeling when that happens. And so that that really I think would ignite the spark in me creating products, and just throughout college and my career, um, all pathways led to the most amount of creative freedom and ability to create um and and get recognized was entrepreneurship. And that's why when the opportunity came to me, um that I took it. Uh I always say though, like a lot of this was um building up a risk tolerance. And I think the podcast was probably the biggest tool of you can create an episode, you can refine it, you can fine-tune it, you can get feedback, and and really care about your craft on like a podcast. And I find podcast episode creating, like I I always add on episodes. I learned graphic design on Canva, which um this does better now. I and I love I love audio tools a lot. I found the the similar creative process of making podcasts as making products. Um are there differences? Yeah, but in terms in general, making a product was very similar to podcasting. Obviously, podcasting you can do it in a week, and pro products take about a year or two, but in general, uh the creative process was generally the same. Um, and having the creative freedom to do that was very important to me. So, and I what I learned working at Iceogenics was like a 500 person team, which is not that big, and we had a lot of creative freedom. Um, having a two-person team, you have a lot of creative freedom versus a 500 person. So that's so I guess the answer is I've always had an inkling to do it, but it I would say it took me like around five years to really have the opportunity to be an entrepreneur. Yep. I'm very glad I did that because um I during that time I I was proactive in my corporate role. I I asked my uh I was able to get mentored by the chief science officer who would give me really risky challenges that I really enjoyed doing. And then I I um and I think that's actually important if you're in your career is to like be proactive in your corporate role. Um but I also think like uh I I read a lot of books, I read a lot of podcast, I listened to a lot of podcasts onpreneurship. Yeah, uh, I did have some like failed businesses. One was like an e-commerce pizza peel company, um, where I like bought like like $10,000 worth of pizza peels or wooden like pizza boards. Um and I was so frustrated because I couldn't sell them, which was which is a vital skill that um in hindsight I wish more people would learn. Uh I I was so frustrated not selling them, I like somehow messed up a free product offering code and like pirates literally stole my inventory. Uh so I lost all like at the time, like I was like 22 and um you know uh you know, 10 $10,000 was a lot for me at that time. And yeah uh that that actually like caused me into like kind of a kind of a deep not depression, but but it was it was just like this stall. And then um and then the podcast opportunity came up and I was like, okay, well, a digital tool or doing something digital, you know, is not as traumatic as something physical. I would say like some of that trauma still has like carried on with CPG um in terms of selling selling physical products. So um that was a long window again, I I talk a lot. Um that was a long-winded answer saying uh why I became an entrepreneur.

SPEAKER_00 16:00

Yeah, no, I think it's so fascinating because people who are typically go into the RD path, these are science-minded individuals. Like my background education-wise, is in the medical field. So similar, you know, uh brain makeup, you could say, or process focused, you know, you have kind of laws you have to abide by. Like if you have one ingredient comparing with another ingredient, like there should be a science to like how that's gonna interact to each other. But uh you you seem like someone's very creative, and it's so it's unique kind of hearing to your story of you're a very creative individual, but you have a passion for the science of developing products and food and and food science as a whole, and merging those two together in the entrepreneur lane is really cool. And I I love your um I love how just even maybe some some some failures along the road, it's just an automatic get back up and keep going, right? There's there's a there's a mindset to that that I think is is is amazing. So thank you for sharing that. Now uh within your you said a couple of things, uh especially at the beginning here. Uh you noticed from the startup CPG standpoint, you you mentioned RD comes in waves. Can you allow can we kind of go deep into that rabbit hole? Because I'd I'd love to hear just that just that.

SPEAKER_01 17:24

Yeah, um happy to talk about that. So RD is until you get to a certain like product market fit, until you get to a certain um cash flow, uh RD generally is hard to justify in the early stages. Um, and I'll just break it down for you. One could argue RD can be needed for the beginning stages of like making a prototype. Um obviously, it's either founder-led or you hire a firm or um or you partner with someone um and you then create uh an MVP or minimal viable product, um, which is common in the startup land. You uh if you're in tech, then it's a similar like getting a technical co-founder, make like your little AI tool or whatever. Um so uh funny enough, that's slowly being chipped off because of new technologies. Um but in general, you have to make it you have to make a product using some type of technical skill, whether it's from the founder or from external sources. And you uh you will essentially make zero dollars doing this uh until you make an MVP. And generally you need validation for the MVP until you get to a product market fit stage, which is basically um what I tell a lot of founders is like you have to show your this product to other people and get feedback from those people, which surprisingly a lot of founders are scared about. Um uh, but it's a necessary part of the process. You have to get good data, which people don't really think of as data, um, to improve your product. And um and I think that's and I I think food scientists can do this in a certain way. I think some food scientists can be too corporate about it. Um, so you know, for for me, it's uh just there might be like a one-page sheet of paper that says like what did you like about it, what did you not like about it? Can you rank it on a scale of one to five? Um, we call this in food science land a hedonic test. Um, but you know, when you simple it down to like where one person can do it like with one sheet of paper, you can actually get a lot of data out of it. Like you can you can tell generally if a product's too salty, if it's too sweet. Um in general, you want to target people if you're demographic, like you know, yeah, get 20 moms in a room, or or get like if your product's um serving mothers. Um and I think what and then you can build off the feedback from there until you hit product market fit, which how I kind of justify it as is that without marketing, your product sells to a certain demographic. And um generally that's like a kind of a viral effect that happens. Uh some people in food kind of rush on that. Uh it is pretty hard to accomplish, and that's why you just have to keep on gathering data, improve the product, and test it. Generally, that's what food scientists do in most situations, especially in the early stage. Um, but uh and most entrepreneurs do that too. And entrepreneurs do have this special type of grit that allows them to just go on and on and learn voraciously. And I do think like if you can't afford a food scientist, just do it yourself. Um at this stage, you might as well. Uh and then usually after the idea stage to a kind of MVP stage, you just have to make the product. And in food, you have to make like years worth of inventory and sell that inventory. And generally that takes a lot of cash, right? You have to let's say you're doing the contract manufacturing route, um, and you have to like pay up front, like let's say 50 to 100K um to set up everything to make a batch of product, and then you have to sell the thing, and uh and you have to sell it on a timeline because it's almost like a ticking bomb that's gonna go off because uh let's say your shelf life's a year, then you essentially have a year to sell it. So this is different from like pens or books, like this is food, right? So every food has a shelf life issue. If you're going to more complicated products like refrigerator frozen, that's even worse. Uh, because frozen, you have uh cold chain, which which bears which cuts your margin because of the energy cost. So yeah, uh, you know, and that's something a food scientist is decently good at as well to explain that that area. Um, but you also learn it the hard way as well. Uh so you know what I try to do is like really, really inform them about that. But in general, at that time period, like this this upfront investment in the MVP to distribution, you generally don't need a food scientist um to work with you, honestly. Like you have to sell the product, you have to validate that selling that product works, and then you probably have to do it over and over again until you get either more funding um or you have to pivot. Um, sometimes like I have to work on technical problems, like if they switch co packers and let's say this protein bar doesn't work well on their line, then they would ask me to for some technical insights. But in general, At that stage, you are just so uh bogged down on a resource perspective and uh and in uh in a time perspective, selling your inventory out. And I I honestly don't think a food scientist is needed at that stage.

SPEAKER_00 22:12

Yeah. And is that the reason why obviously you mentioned founders just handle the technical component, but that's probably why they also will bring in consultants for a period of time to maybe if there's a technical problem that they can't solve, the consultant solves it quick. Okay, you're good to go, and then let's focus on get getting this product out.

SPEAKER_01 22:32

Yeah, I say generally, yeah. Okay, for sure.

SPEAKER_00 22:34

Fascinating. I I like that. Um yeah, that's that's great there and everything. Now let me go to my next question here. So because that kind of bled into my curiosity of when someone should bring our I guess if we're kind of going down that lane, when should I know there's no black and white answer to this, but when should someone actually consider bringing RD in-house permanently in that stage from a startup standpoint of their growth, um yeah, what as as they're growing their their brand, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 23:14

Yeah, this will be dependent on uh product format, I will say, at the end of the day. Um and also problems that the company has. So um if the product is suffering from a painful technical challenge, like I don't know, let's let's say the gummies are sticking in the package, uh, or like you buy gummies and when you open it up, it's like a mass of gummies. It's not like individual pieces, like that is a painful technical challenge, right? And good entrepreneurs solve pain points, and um, and I think that's similar to good employees, like their job is to solve a pain point that is really harming your business. And sometimes it is a technical challenge, and sometimes it's not. So, like if you are not selling a product well, like marketing, one could argue you could you could hire you should hire a marketing firm, right, to sell your product. One could argue that's a waste of money and you should figure out yourself, but you know, that that's here or there. Um, so that's also dependent as well. For RD though, it is it is essentially to solve a technical challenge. There's several of them, not only in a product point of view, but also a paperwork point of view, actually. Um, quality is a really big one. Uh, you know, documentation of like formulations or regulatory work if you're a supplement brand. Um one could argue one could also say like a co-packer can do this too. Um there there are pros and cons to using a co-packer to help you with this. Um, one, you have to have a really good relationship with them. Two, you have to have documents saying that you have a good relationship with them and they won't steal your shit. Um sorry if I swore. Uh but uh if they steal your stuff, then that's a that happens, it's a big problem. Uh I always say, like, some some some fractional consultants will warn people like, oh, you should always hire an individual food scientist because they all they'll have you on the formula. Um partially true. Um if you can negotiate well, which honestly CPG is all about negotiations, uh, you can you can have the formula um in writing uh owned to you if you work with a co-packer, but you have to have a lot of leverage to do that. Um and I I think that that is what trips, at least from the people I talk to, and when we get to this co-packer stage, that's what trips a lot of um founders up, is like they don't do legal like writing or or documentation to save their butts. And and this is really important. You should hire a good lawyer for specifically a contract. They call them co-man's because it stands for contract manufacturer. So you need a contract, and I'm surprised how many people don't have contracts when they work with contract manufacturers. Um interesting.

SPEAKER_00 25:41

Yeah, so interesting. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Now uh uh let's go to the sales side of things, uh, specifically with an RD. So I've interviewed good amounts of RD folks, uh, more on the leadership standpoint, uh just with my day work, also a handful here on the podcasts, and uh almost every one of them emphasizes the importance of RD professionals building sales skills and people skills um as a way to complement and grow their career. So if you could speak to that, maybe on how that's transformed your career or just maybe some pieces that you've observed with RD colleagues and the relationships you have. I'd love for you to speak on RD professionals building sales and people skills.

SPEAKER_01 26:26

I mean, frankly, everyone should have sales and people skills. Uh I I I think so. I I mean, especially in the today's world, um, it's it's really important because anyone can be an influencer, and influencer is just really good at sales. Um, in corporate, you have to sell as in read people to get what you want. That includes a pay raise, that includes a uh leadership position. There is a sales component to this. Um, and I I think should RD people do it? Yes, I mean, of course. But I do think I just want to preface what we learn as a scientist is almost the complete opposite of sales and marketing. Um we're we're taught to be objective, we're taught to be um take our time with the data. We're we're taught to essentially tell the truth, which is uh you know, it's uh sales and marketing. Uh there's a there's a book called with uh who Ryan Holiday wrote it, who's like a famous stoic guy. He pivoted to stoicism, but he used to be like a really, really awesome marketer. Um and he wrote a book called All Marketers Are Liars. Uh and uh I I have an article on drafts that's like all founders are liars, but that's a uh but you know, it's like it's kind of this thing. It's like, okay, what at what point do you lie? Um and what is a lie and all that. But in general, there is some form of lying, which is like a no-no in science. And uh in science, we assume everyone is rational, in marketing, we assume everyone is irrational. Um, and I'm combining sales and marketing for for a reason because it is nowadays almost the same thing. Um and uh this is kind of what the basis of what I've learned. And through podcasting and being cognizant about the media realm, like I'm uh I like to scroll on TikTok and I like to say it's data analysis, but in reality, I'm just doom scrolling. But um it I generally like to understand how people are selling based off of the current way we're absorbing information. So instead of books, which takes eight hours to read, and you have to focus all your time on reading a book, the new wave is podcasting, where you can wash the dishes while listening to me blabber on. Um, same with short-form video TikToks. Um, instead of movie theaters, we would rather create contact on our own for about a minute. Um, and we can scroll endlessly due to certain tech algorithms. Almost same with Google search. You could argue that AI searching is now getting a lot more emphasis with brands. So, so it you know, a lot of this is being cognizant about the world today. Yeah, being in college right now, I there is definitely a disconnect of scientists being cognizant about the world today. Um, and I think that's you know, they probably won't go far. Or they'll get they'll get punched in the face and then they'll they'll change their change how they do stuff. Um once you don't once you don't have bills, it's uh things just change. Once you have bills and things get expensive, uh, I think you do change your mindset quite a bit. Or is it going on this? Uh I think there are lessons in sales and marketing everyone should know in today's world. The only way you're gonna get far is to understand people, how they work, and and uh and and what motivates them. And the most important thing I learned in My Food Jabox is My Food Jar Box is a marketing exercise. It is a way where I can reach out to people who are who I think are more intimidating than I think they are. It's a way to cold call them by getting them on an interview. It is a way of getting them in for an hour conversation to convince them I am cool. Uh and it is a way of essentially almost an upsell uh or a lead, right? So it is technically a lead. Like I you know, I know you had like you have disclaimers saying, like, you know, I'm not selling you shit, but yeah. Uh but like I don't, you know, it's it's a marketing tool, like you know, whatever. So it is, it is so like for for uh for like my works, like I don't necessarily say like my poo jar box is a marketing tool, but people come to me because they've heard my podcast and they they they hear my voice and they think I'm a good person because I I'm giving this out for free, right? Like uh and you know, I I think they're people want to work with good people, and I think that's really important to really understand. Like, marketing and selling is not a bad thing, it's being cognizant about you how people are marketing and selling to you, whether you know it's it's a date or or a process, you know, or or um it's it's someone selling you like I don't know, a pet or a dog or something like that. Like, these are all marketing sales things that are in the world today. TikTok, every TikTok you have has a marketing and sales component, yeah, even though they may not be selling you their stupid course about real estate. Um, it might be selling you like the uh like liking you on on as a follower account, right? Yeah. I think being cognizant about that is really important as you progress through the world.

SPEAKER_00 30:53

Yeah, no, that's amazing, amazing insight there. And you're you're totally uh so what I'm looking at it as in is is just creating win-win relationships and everything. So yeah, like starting a podcast and everything, there is an element of people hearing your voice, which then they feel like there's a at least a preliminary connection with that person, and that opens the door to kind of go relate deeper into a relationship that can add value mutually both ways. And I think the stigma that people have with sales and marketing is that it's always take, take, take, take, but in reality, it's just a creating win-win. Hey, I help you, and that ends up helping me, or kind of the other way around and and some of those pieces there. So our mantra from a sales and marketing component internally with our within our company is just um with AI and everything, like the digital messaging components has drastically uh or has has dramatically decreased in terms of interaction rate. But when people are hearing your voice, that's our whole mantra this year, hear, hear your voice, hear your voice, hear your voice. Where as people hear our voice whether through a podcast or through uh other form of social media, et cetera, or phone call, you know, that opens more doors to build a connection point and everything. Um now let's pivot to just trends within CPG and and RD. Obviously, the high protein, low carb is you know, has been for a while, really taking up steam. There's also GLP ones that's really gaining a lot of traction right now, ultra-processed foods and everything. So, from your standpoint of a podcaster, day-to-day, you are in the food business from an RD perspective. What are you seeing on the trend standpoint um that we we we can speak to?

SPEAKER_01 32:47

Yeah, so UmaiWorks specifically um is focused on essentially three kind of underlying trends, um, and that's AI, GLP1s, or biotech, I would say, um, in a more broader sense, and then ultra-processed foods. Um, and I what I've learned through innovation is most likely foods on the back end of it. So uh if there is massive innovation on other industries which have higher margins um than food, generally it trickles down to food. Um, and that's kind of the focus on like these three kind of technologies uh and underlying reasons. So um, you know, high protein, high fiber, it's an interesting trend that's coming up. Uh, and it it it I was talking to another like food science consultant. Uh, it's almost like this this blatant marketing. So branding has less of an effect than just saying we have 50 grams of protein. So as long as you say you have 50 grams of protein, no one really cares about the brand, they just care that it has 50 grams of protein. Yeah, it seems to be the case. Um, and it's hard to say also the retail data if this is actually fruitioning. One example that's coming out, there's a new innovation in. I would say also something we focus on is like ingredient innovation. And we've seen like, let's say this there's this whey protein that dissolves in acid. Um, and now protein sodas are like in the market. Or this whey protein. Target has a lot of these, for instance. This whey protein that can dissolve in water in water, and you have a clear whey protein beverage. Like, that is actually a really cool innovation in the dairy industry um that um kind of got scooped up real fast by CPG brands. So um there's a lot of you know, a lot of these innovations in CPG will actually stem from them trying to figure out how to sell an ingredient better. Um, but the ingredient companies also have to learn how to sell their ingredient to CPG brands. So it's all it's this whole thing. Um so back to like kind of the three main things. Um AI, I think, is going to be there's just too much invested in AI for it to be um ignored. Um so I I think that's we're just investing so much into this um in terms of like a tech perspective. Like it's gonna, it's uh I don't have numbers with me, but it's just um the data centers are being built. Are there pros and cons of this? Of course. Um but there's only two options essentially. Either AI is going to be really good or going to, or because we had so much invested into it that things are going to become really bad if it fails. Uh so you know, I'd rather be an optimist than this. And generally, history has agreed with optimists. Um so but there's a lot of like after effects that happen with AI technology. One, you're going to get, and there's a lot of side effects too. Uh I mentioned a little bit before AI search seems to be getting more popular. I just had a client call saying they found me on AI, which, you know, I'm glad. Uh, because that means like the algorithm like I don't know, the algorithm likes me or something like that. Um funny enough, like YouTubers get really good, um, really good traction on uh like AI searching. Like uh obviously because Google owns a lot of it. Uh so you know a lot of my friends are YouTubers get a lot of traction. Um so that's that's coming up. Uh and ingredient companies know this. And you know, CBG companies, I think they're trying to figure it out. Most of them, though, are relying more on clipping from short-form content, which also uses AI. We're also noticing like kind of this with AI, like you can be reductive but not inflammatory. So if you have a complicated like ingredient, and um you can spray and pray what this ingredient is good for, and whatever works, you will double down on and then ideally get more algorithmic sales. Um is this bad for science communication? Yes, but this is uh in my opinion, this is how the world is gonna work. Uh, that even though even you basically brands are gonna have to choose between a functionality of health that is true versus the algorithm that says something that might not be true, and they would probably choose the might not be true because it'll is gonna generate sales. It's gonna be company dependent, but I do think that's gonna happen. Um, so that that that's like an after effect of AI. Um, and uh funny enough, we're not seeing a lot of AI formulations, what we're actually seeing more like AI um just processes that are going on. Uh and that that's a lot of work to be done. I think it's gonna be in the next like five years before we actually figure out how to implement AI into the food industry. It's kind of part of my research in SC State is to figure that out, uh, which I'm pretty excited about. Um I'm probably I mean, this is probably gonna go over as a podcast. I don't know if you have the hard stop, but I just uh I have I have a lot of other things to say about the other two topics.

SPEAKER_00 37:13

Okay. Yeah, I I would love to hear it. I would. I would. Yeah, I'd love to hear it.

SPEAKER_01 37:17

So all right, so biotech slash I I'm actually focusing more on GLP ones. Um we're seeing like I think a year ago it was around 8% of the population using it, now it's like 12%. So it's really, really um changing things. The food industry is really scared to talk about GLP1s because it is a direct hit on profits, because the food industry, like the like PepsiCo and Nestle, um they uh they love to talk about it on the headlines, but uh internally they're really struggling because um actually I think Unilever is a better example because they just sold their ice cream business, um, which was really tanking. Um but GLP ones are a direct hit on indulgent big food, um, which have always designed their products on um on crevability. Uh you know, uh at Motif, uh we we got like a scientist who specifically was involved in chewing, right? Like like the this PhD scientist like had so many papers on chewing, and he worked at you know, Fritole or no PepsiCo um and uh that was focusing on like chewing a Dorito chip or whatever. Like this is how like focused these guys are on cravability and niche. Yeah. And marketing, I think they can afford it, right? So um and marketing is also focused on create cravability, and it's a huge company. So the the pivot between like all this IP on cravability and being stopped by this one essentially super drug is is massive and really hard and blindsidingly hard to change. So I think these guys are gonna suffer for a while. Um they're also I have a lot of infirdiers in a lot of these companies I talk to sometimes uh that uh you know they they tell me just the bureaucratic mess is is just it's almost gonna be impossible for them to shift. Um but GLP ones are coming, they are working. Um, side effects, who cares? That's welcome to today's world. Um uh but you know, there uh when I worked at Isogenics, it was a weight loss company. Like we saw the weight loss shake um as a market-level marketing company too. So if you provide a story that this weight loss shake made you lose a lot of weight, you could easily convince someone to use this product. And GLP ones like scientifically do this. Um, I will say I've used uh a very like cheap version of them, Tim's, um, to test it out myself because I I had to put my money where my mouth is on this technology. I was also I was getting a little chubby, so I wanted to test it out. But uh but it for me it was like, okay, my excuse was I I should use this drug because I want to understand what it is. Um and uh you know for me it's it's fascinating because it really did kill this food noise that was happening in my brain. So um when I was in my grow when I was in the grocery store buying things, um in the food industry, we want to take like milliseconds of of resonance time between picking up a product and putting it in our bag. Uh GLP ones extend it like tenfold. So instead of like milliseconds, like you know, a microsecond or like a second. Like it took me like five seconds maybe to look at a bag and put it back on the shelf because I rationalize this is not a good choice to buy um a bag of chips. And I think without that drug, you because because a lot of IP is based off of credibility, people are gonna buy that chip and put in their bag because they're hungry or because they want it. Um, and I think GLP1 stopped that. Um, which is just a fascinating discussion in itself. I I think it's something that we're still trying to figure out about this. Uh that and that there's a lot of people, you know, one one example is Hershey's has always diversified in Mars, funny enough, has always diversified into gum. Um, you know, that's why Mars bought Wrigley's because chocolate was too risky of a product. But you know, they're uh both of those companies have gun their gum sales go up because there's a side effect of GLP1s with bad breath. Um, but the chocolate sales are kind of in flux because one, because of supply chain issues, but also because uh people don't want cheap chocolate. Um, so that's a really interesting dynamic. And then ultra-processed foods is really interesting. Um I was heavily involved in plant-based meat. Um, and then there was almost the same kind of feeling as GLP1s. There's this blind-sidedness of um ultra-processed foods being demonized. And no matter how you look at it, plant-based foods are essentially ultra-processed foods. Like uh if you look at the ingredient deck, it's huge. The ingredients are hard to pronounce. Like, there's no way around it. Like, and I'm friends with a lot of these people in this alternative meat community. Um, so there was like a huge drastic shift um that one could like forensically analyze it, but in general, um, we found that uh dairy and meat are are higher in sales than ever before. And um, and I you know that's a really interesting understanding of how the dynamic shift. But when we look at meat and we look at the value of meat and dairy, it is technically the cleanest, highest protein, and affordable food source for the American diet at this point. Um, one could argue beef is getting more expensive, but people are actually switching to chicken uh if they don't want to buy beef. Uh so you know when we look at the kind of the trends of ultra process and RFK and Maha um and just in general costs, uh, all these trends focus on okay, I might as well buy meat and dairy. Uh, and also there's also less emphasis on sustainability now due to a variety of factors as well. So it's like, okay, well, the world's gonna end anyways. I'm I'm poor, I can't afford a house, I might as well enjoy a nice steak. You know what I mean? That's a huge like sentence that can be really distilled, but that's like what is going on with a lot of consumers right now.

SPEAKER_00 42:48

I love it. I love it. So I would let's say that some of these large CPGs are let's say GLP1 continues to just grow, grow, grow. They're their quote unquote unhealthy and ultra-processed food sales keep going down, down, down, it would probably be the RD teams that would have to innovate in products that are quote unquote healthier, more clean label, meeting the consumer expectations from a macro standpoint. That if these large brands are gonna make a pivot which they're gonna be, you know, coming up with solutions, it's gonna be important to have really good RD teams to actually formulate products that help these come to fruition. Is that is that on point or am I totally off? Obviously, there's a lot of factors involved, but I'm just thinking RD scientists are the ones who are actually formulating these products and making it work um through scale up. So I don't know. Would love to hear how on par some of those thoughts are.

SPEAKER_01 43:53

Yeah, it's a combination of wants versus what we have. So we are seeing hiring decrease because um there's There's just people are cutting their costs. People believe also AI can replace RD. So I I am trying to be a realist here in a sense where this stuff is affecting kind of how we're thinking about RD talent. Also, H1B is a really big one. Immigration from both ends. Yeah, from high quality to you know the lower quality worker, factory workers, actually. That's actually a really huge one. A lot of a lot of the people in NC State are immigrants with H1B visas, and now it costs like $100,000 to hire these. And you know, if Google doesn't want to hire these employees, then why would a food company, right? So those are so you know what I'm trying to say is that you are technically right, but do the economics say that it's going to happen? And I think that's something just keep in mind. Um we do want these, you know, I do think there is a um a big push on ingredient sales or ingredient companies to invest more in RD because I think one of the professors in in NC State came back from a dairy conference, and the biggest questions was was more about how do we functionalize milk proteins even more than we already have. So it it what it tells me is that like a lot of companies don't want to add like additives, but they want like the raw material of like, let's say, I don't know, beef protein or or casein to be explored a lot more. And I think that's that's seems to be a trend. Um that's gonna be an underlying trend that's gonna take like two to five years to fruition. Um, but that seems to be uh a way where talent can be really valuable here. Um but uh so I guess the answer is everyone would love more RD. Everyone would love to spend more more money on RD, right? Like um, but I think sometimes the reality of a food business, not only in start in CBG, but also in the big companies, is that uh we're we're bleeding money, there's a war going on, tariffs, which actually a friend of mine from Burlap and Barrel just like was kind of one of the companies that helped um get tariff refunds, um, which so that's not much of a big deal anymore. But there's just a lot of like logistical factors that are surprisingly weighing down on food. There's consumer sentiment is also risky as well. Um, so I guess to answer your question, is that though we would like more RD, there are other parts in the business that some people might focus on. Is it the right thing to do? Hard to say, but I think we we as RD people just need to be cognizant about what a food business actually is.

SPEAKER_00 46:34

Yeah. Nice. Now on the AI side of things, I've had some conversations about there are companies that you can plug in all these variables like um, you know, I need to have this many ingredients with these macros and this type of tastes, boom, boom, boom. Just plug in all the variables that you would want that companies would typically hire a consultant to solve, technically speaking, that now some of these AI platforms are able to essentially create a product for you to actually kind of formulate in the lab based on the variables that you're sharing. So if you can if we can maybe kind of tail into the AI side of things a little bit deeper, would love to hear your thoughts on how that is influencing RD. And I know you spoke a little bit to it, but if you could go deeper on that.

SPEAKER_01 47:19

Oh, good. I can I can flex this little thing I've done. Um so so two years ago, I I was uh actually I got fired uh from my from my second startup. Uh, I uh someone, a friend of mine, uh Caroline Cotto from the Food Sys uh Food Uh Systems Innovation Um connected me with a Stanford researcher on uh using large language models um for product development. And we actually have a paper that's published. Uh so what we were doing is taking sensory data and plugging it into a simple large language model at the time, which is tells you how outdated the study is even now, was ChatGPT-01 preview. So that just launched. Um and now we're in ChatGPT like 5.5. Um so when we what we found was that uh when we plugged in sensory data and gave it some context, um, it turned out to be a pretty formidable formulation. Um and then we had food scientists do a blind study to compare them uh with their own suggestions versus the ChatGPT one, ChatGPT1.1 out on the study. So people thought that was a superior answer based off the data that was given. So um we took that data and then won like two million bucks from Jeff Fazos, which is a really interesting project as well. I'm an advisor on that. Uh so you know, in terms of credibility, the reason why I said this is to give people credibility about using AI in food product development. I took all this knowledge, I had to do a lot of work with Stanford to research um uh just just how prompts are being fed this data and and what the output is between every model. Um now I would argue Gemini Cloud and ChatGPT can do the same uh and honestly are probably as good as the software companies that are selling you the software for like $5,000. You can actually do it for $20 a month. That's that's kind of my stance that I have on AI tools right now, is that you can do this in ChatGPT Cloud or Gemini. Um you need the right tool, you need the right prompt, um, but they're not hard prompts. So what I usually do, like in North Carolina, is um I share with the department the tools I've made in my consultancy that has saved me tons of time. Um so I can develop a custom GPT that can give me a baseline formula and then go to town. And you know, just because I'm an experienced product developer, I can figure out what's right or what's wrong. There is a lot of things that are wrong with um some of the outputs, but they're not they're not detrimental. I mean, that they're just they're observational in a sense where uh you have to be kind of like uh cognizant about the result of what they give you. And if it doesn't work, then it's like, okay, well, the AI just doesn't have data on this. And um, as long as you understand kind of the baseline understanding of like what AI does, which is basically it predicts things. If it doesn't have the data, it'll lie. I think those are like the two fundamental things about AI that all these models are doing. Then you can make a more educated guess as an expert on fixing it for your own thing. And someone once challenged me, like saying, like, are you scared of like these LLMs stealing your IP? And I said, like, well, the LLMs already have all the IP of the internet, but your brain is the IP that is going to change what you create from these LLMs. So um, you know, you're going to take this LLM data and which is basically just compressed Google, in my opinion, yeah, and in a certain format that is better for you, and you're going to improve it using your IP. In fact, what we're doing with UMIWorks now is um I'm shoving a lot of these stuff, this stuff into LLMs, but I am also hiring experts to evaluate like the answers to kind of the questions my clients have. And sometimes they get it right, sometimes it gets it wrong. And I think it for me it's really good data uh understanding that. And um I think that's the stage we're at right now. It's probably gonna get better. I think the startups right now, and this is something I've been kind of an advocate about, are are just rappers, and it's fine if they're just rappers. Um, if you are proactive and and don't have the money to like buy these like tools, which in my opinion aren't really are just computer science or computer companies building out like a a niche for food. So there's not really a lot of food science thought into a lot of these tools. Yeah, um, you can just do these the stuff yourself on a simple $20 a month like LLM platform. Nice. Uh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:40

Okay. Perfect. Now, as we kind of segue towards the end here, um you've been able to interview a lot of RD professionals, interact with them throughout your career. What is maybe some career advice that you have specifically towards RD professionals that from your observations are gonna be fruitful for them as they kind of progress through their career?

SPEAKER_01 52:03

Yeah, I I think the big one is read a marketing book. So uh honestly, um uh some people challenge me on that. I'm like saying, no, read a marketing book and see how why people buy products or why people buy things. Um, a couple ones I can recommend is like uh 22 immutable laws of marketing. I think is okay, though I disagree with them on some of the laws. Um uh made to stick, I think, is a classic one. Uh Creative Consciousness, I think is another one. Uh Conscious is Creative. I don't know, one of those. Um, what is another good one? Uh uh uh Predictably Irrational is another good one. Uh I also recommend people read like another a pretty science-heavy book called uh Wizard and the Prophet, which um is more science-based, but it's it's it it taps to a core theme about uh how people view technology. And at least in the plant-based meat space, it's kind of those two factions: the prophet who believes in kind of this um ignore technology, we have to scale back versus the wizard who wants to invent technology to scale forward. Um, those are two different segments that are very important marketing segments um in a technology point of view. So I read a lot of marketing books, I love, I and I listen to a lot of marketing podcasts and a lot of like um just just a lot of things in general that you know we think of the food industry like we're so special and all that, but we're really kind of in a small area compared to wider innovations. And and what I've learned through just studying innovations and technologies from cold chain technology to um to telephones, and there are books about this, um, is that a lot of these effects affect food down the pipeline. And I think being aware of like these innovations up front is going to give you an advantage overall um when you innovate.

SPEAKER_00 53:56

Thank you for sharing that. Now we have a tradition here on the podcast where the previous guest asks a mystery question for the current guest, and then the current guest asks a question for the next guests. And so the mystery question from the previous guests, which you have no context with, is an individual asks in five years, what skill set will a leader need to have in order to be successful? And what does that person need to do to build that skill set today?

SPEAKER_01 54:24

Yeah, so um I'm learning this at NC State and I'm working with a lot of faculty on building essentially an AI upskill course um for this for faculty, staff, students, or researchers. Uh it's been interesting getting feedback from that. Uh, but I think one of the things that we're trying to work out is how do we convince everyone to be tech curious? And it's not about using AI, which might not work, it might work. Um, but it it's to understand technology is going to change your life in some way, shape, or form. How can you get ahead of it? Or not even ahead of it, uh, just just on the tip of the spear. I think living in San Francisco for the startups I've made really taught me just how far along San Francisco is compared to, let's say, North Carolina. And um it also it tells me a lot about how we think about technology, how we think about um adopting technology, how we think about um just embracing technology. I I'm definitely someone who embraces technology, and from what I understand throughout industries, is eventually technology happens. Um and I think that's it's not about like being AI, AI, AI. It's it's how can I be curious about the tools? Um, and it can be AI, which currently now it's cheaper than it's ever going to be, honestly. Uh and it's more useful. And it is useful in in some in a way where you can explore it. Um, I think that's kind of the the thing I would recommend. Like whether or not AI fails or or succeeds, being tech curious and understanding why it fails or succeeds, I think is just really important in the long-term value of your career. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 56:01

Yeah. Appreciate that. And then what what question do you have for the next guests?

SPEAKER_01 56:07

Um what's your uh tell me uh the best place you've ever ate. I think that's always a fun one. Um and uh tell me the specific like country, tell me the specific restaurant, tell me the specific dish, what did you like about the dish? Um, what were the the colors, what was the tastes. Um, I think what how we describe food, uh good versus bad, I think I think from what I've learned through specific consulting is that the more we can describe food better, the more helpful it is.

SPEAKER_00 56:35

Oh, fascinating. Okay, that is noted. Noted here. And then um if people are connecting with this episode, and honestly, most likely people who are listening probably already know who you are from your previous podcast and everything. But if let's say someone doesn't uh have a context and they connect it with you, what's the best way that they can stay connected?

SPEAKER_01 56:56

So I will say podcasts are the only time I can like say hot takes like this. I usually don't do it for my other podcasts. Uh so I just go out all out when it comes to like podcast interviews because I just think it's really fun. Um so again, thank you. You've been very generous with your time, but um uh with me. Um so I think uh I think you can find me on LinkedIn. That's probably the only social media platform I use. Uh Adam Yee, food scientist, just search down on the bar. Um there are several places you can contact me or find me. Um one is My Food Job Rocks, uh, which is you know around 300 episodes in. Um it's like on my free farm podcast, so I just like to experiment and just interview cool people on the show. Um then I recently work now work with startup CPG, and every two weeks we launch an episode called RD Radio, where we interview a right now we're interviewing consultants. Um uh, but I think in the future we're going to be doing a lot more other kind of RD deep dives. Um, and then uh you can find me at umaiworks.com. Uh some people type in UmamiWorks, but it's UmaiWorks. Uh Umai means tasty in Japanese and also means skillful. So uh and I'm not Japanese, I'm Chinese, but I thought the word was cool. Um uh so you can find me there, and then you can also like uh if you want to email me, I have like five email addresses. But uh uh the the best if you want to like talk food science, um the best one is uh adam e at umaiworks.com.

SPEAKER_00 58:22

Amazing. And you're you're being humble with your podcast, by the way. You have over a hundred and fifty thousand downloads. I think I saw that on your LinkedIn.

SPEAKER_01 58:31

Uh you have quite a bit. Yeah, I don't check them anymore.

SPEAKER_00 58:34

But okay, I really don't. Anyway, lots of downloads. And uh yeah, that's amazing. Well, I I appreciate your your time, Adam. You've been very generous on your side as well. And uh it's always just so fascinating to kind of pick your your brain and other people's brains. And I I've learned a lot on my side of things here. So I appreciate your time, sir, and um looking forward to staying in touch.

SPEAKER_01 58:58

Yeah, you said you want to be curious, so I hope I satisfied that.

SPEAKER_00 59:00

Oh, yeah, you you you definitely did. You definitely did. But and that concludes another episode of the CPG Level Up Podcast. If anything that we shared today resonates with you and adds value, would love to connect. You can reach us at uh our contacts page on our website, progressusolutions.com. Uh, you can follow us on LinkedIn, and you can also connect with me and message me personally, uh Nathan Schmidt on LinkedIn. I'm pretty active there, and we'd be open to hearing some suggestions, feedback, etc., so we can help improve the content moving forward and looking forward to hearing from you. Have a great day.