Turning Lemons Into Lemonade - How Gratitude Changes Everything

What do you do when life doesn’t turn out the way you hoped?

We all know the phrase “turn lemons into lemonade,” but what does that actually look like when the pain is real, prayers feel unanswered, and life feels heavy?

In this episode, we’re talking about what it means to trust God in the middle of it, not after things get better. Together, we unpack what Scripture really says about trials, how to “consider it joy” without pretending everything is okay, and how to come honestly before a God who is still good, even in the hard seasons.

In This Episode, We Talk About:

• Why gratitude in hard seasons actually matters
• Letting go of comparison and stepping into your own calling
• What it means to be held and kept by God
• Learning to trust Him—even when it’s difficult

Scriptures Mentioned:

• James 1:2–4
• Romans 8:28
• Proverbs 3:5–6
• Colossians 3:12
• Romans 5:3–5

Companion Devotional:

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About the Guest:

Tonilee Cullison has served alongside her husband, Kurt, in ministry for nearly 35 years. They currently serve as lead pastors of GraceValley Church in Saginaw, Michigan, and are parents to two adult children, Ashley (Trevor) and Andrew.

Growing up in a broken home, Tonilee developed a deep passion for helping women build peaceful, God-centered homes. What began as a chaotic childhood has become a testimony of God’s faithfulness—shaping her heart for homemaking, discipleship, and creating environments where people can flourish spiritually, relationally, and practically.

She is especially passionate about helping women break free from comparison and step confidently into their God-given purpose. Through her teaching, storytelling, and wisdom rooted in Scripture, Tonilee brings both encouragement and truth—often making you laugh one moment and reflect deeply the next. Her greatest desire is to share timely, Spirit-led truth that helps women walk in freedom and purpose.

Call to Action:

If this episode encouraged you, share it with someone who might need it, and don’t forget to follow the podcast so you don’t miss what’s coming next.

Transcript

Speaker 0:10

Hello and welcome. This is a messy amen. We are having conversations for real life with um with the good, the bad, and the holy. And uh today I have Tonilee Cullison. Hi, how are you? I'm glad to be here. I'm doing great. Thank you. Thank you so much for joining me. And we um go to church together, and I've known you almost four years and looking forward to um that anniversary as well. Um can you tell me a little bit about um maybe um where you grow up and where you grew up and then um how you got to to this part of the state? I grew up in the upper peninsula of Michigan, so I am what they call a yooper, and I lived I was born and raised there.

Speaker 1 0:52

I left when I was 18 and went to Minneapolis, Minnesota, where I went to Bible college, and I was there for four years as a student, and then I continued to work at the university for two years afterwards, and that's when I met my husband, and uh we got married in 1991, and he was born and raised in the Lower Peninsula, Michigan, and so we um came to Big Rapids, Michigan to youth pastor. His dad was the lead pastor at the time, and then we pastored in the Detroit area, we pastored in Wisconsin for a couple of years, and then the Lord brought us to mid-Michigan 29 years ago. So we've been in mid-Michigan now for 29 years. We were in youth ministry for 24 years, and then we traveled for 14 years and did um well, part of that 24 years of youth ministry, we were youth allied missionaries. So we worked in the public schools and really brought Jesus to the public campus.

Speaker 1:47

Oh wow. Okay, so circling back to college, what were you um you said you were initially were going for by um Bible school uh college and a degree in ministry? I did.

Speaker 1 1:57

I went to school, I knew I was gonna I was called to ministry, and so I got a degree in music. My degree is actually a liberal arts degree because I loved journalism and I loved counseling and I loved music and I knew I was gonna be a pastor's wife, and I've used all three of those things in our thirty-five years of of ministry.

Speaker 2:16

So then how what um you met him in in school, what year was that as far as um we're friends.

Speaker 1 2:23

He came in the fall of nineteen eighty-seven, but I probably started hanging out with him around nineteen eighty-eight, nineteen eighty-nine when I graduated, and Kurt's two years younger than me, and so then we hung out and became really good friends, and we had the same friend group, and then we got married in ninety-one.

Speaker 2:39

Okay, so you w um while you were still um working um like a after you graduated. Oh, okay.

Speaker 1 2:46

So I did not graduate from North Central Bridal College with a degree, an MRS degree. I I got married after I graduated.

Speaker 2:54

Okay, then that um more that more than a lot of us can say. I um yeah, I met Jared and um wa long after that, but um I had because I had so many ideas, but I couldn't figure out what exactly that was gonna look like for me. But um, so then you then he knew he was going to be a pastor then r um right away. Yes. Okay. And then um so I w I guess when I oh before I thought with the music that you had um other ideas, but then um as you were a piano teacher for a little bit? I was.

Speaker 1 3:26

When I went to North Central, I knew that I would be in the ministry somewhere or another. I I had a feeling I would be a pastor's wife someday, but when I graduated in 1989, I actually was with um a singing group called Gentle Touch Ministries, GTM Ministries, and they were what they referred to themselves as musiciaries, and they traveled around the world bringing the gospel to people through music. And so I went to Indianapolis to meet with them uh during the spring break of my senior year to sign my contract with them to travel with them, and I needed a ride because I didn't have a car, I was too poor all through college. I had to reply on public transportation, and um this guy named Kirk Cullison was driving back to Detroit for spring break, so I bummed a ride with him, and I knew instantly that I was in love with him and that I wanted to marry him, and so I didn't sign the contract. And when he picked me up on our way back to Minneapolis, he said, So did you sign the contract? And I said, No, I didn't. And he was like shocked, and he said, Why not? And in my head, I'm thinking, because I think I'm gonna marry you, but we hadn't even dated, so I couldn't say that. I said, I don't know, I just feel in my heart like that wasn't the right direction for me.

Speaker 4:40

Absolutely. That's awesome, that's awesome. And then um, so he like he it's an assemblies of God um college, yes.

Speaker 1 4:50

Okay, is a uh AG university.

Speaker 4:54

So then um he grew up Assemblies of God?

Speaker 1 4:57

He did. We both did. We both grew up as in the Assemblies of God. His dad was actually um is an Assembly of God minister and was the state youth director for many years. So Kurt grew up in ministry. I didn't, but I grew up in an AG church. Okay. I'm very involved in my church.

Speaker 5:13

And so when um would you um how old were you when you accepted Christ? And what was that story?

Speaker 1 5:19

My parents and accepted the Lord probably when I was four. My sister was ten. I have a uh one sister who's six years older than me, and our entire family gave our lives to the Lord at this little tiny church uh in northern Ishbaming. When I say northern Ishbaming, it's a town of 9,000 people, so it's not very big. But it was on the north end of town and it was called Deer Lake Church. It probably had 10 pews in it, but that's where our family gave our lives to the Lord. So I've just I've been blessed to know Jesus Christ my entire life.

Speaker 5:48

And then everything, you know, from then on fell um, you know, prayer life stayed c pretty consistent, and you wouldn't say you just like fell off the bandwagon.

Speaker 1 5:57

No, I honestly never walked away from the Lord. I'm very thankful for that. I I think uh I've witnessed so many people in my family who didn't have the Lord to begin with, and their lives were some of them were a hot mess, you know, and so they found the Lord later on, and I just thought, oh, I don't I don't want that story. I I I just I think when I met the Lord at the age of four, he made himself very well known to me. Wow, and I just I grew up in the UP where winters are tough, life is rough, and people drink. And excuse me, all of my friends drank and partied and they just seemed miserable to me, like they were chasing something that um wasn't attainable. They were chasing happiness through alcohol and popularity and partying, and yet they would come to school on Mondays and share their stories, but there was an emptiness in their eyes. And I just I wasn't about to give up what I knew in my heart was not for me to to compete with that.

Speaker 7:01

And when you had the gods love and peace and joy, it wouldn't make sense to, you know, be searching in any other place. So this one um I just thought of, but uh as you were say, elementary, middle, high school, uh would you say that you had different Bibles that were special, or did you s have have one main one throughout growing up?

Speaker 1 7:23

I had um I had a uh living Bible, I think when I was younger. But when my sister got married, I was 16.

Speaker 3 7:33

Okay.

Speaker 1 7:34

And she knew that I had a crush on Tom Selleck and wanted to marry someone like Tom Selleck because Magnum P.I. was my show. It was the early 80s, so gotta cut me some slack there. But she bought me a Bible for being her maid of honor. And it was a Drake study Bible, okay, and it was huge and it was flat, but um I could write it, I could open it out flat and write in the margins. Okay, and I really journaled a lot in that Bible, and so that Bible was really a treasure for me because it was from my sister, it was at a very difficult time in my life. My dad, my mom and dad have married and divorced twice.

Speaker 8:13

Okay.

Speaker 1 8:14

So they married and divorced before I was born, and then shortly after I was born, they got married again and then divorced when I was 14. 14, 15. And so um my dad left in January and my sister got married in May. So our family went from four to two within a four and a half month period.

Speaker 8:33

So then you kind of felt a little left.

Speaker 1 8:35

I felt left alone, left behind, and things weren't easy in our home. And so I kind of had to hold things together and I had to become the mom real quickly. And so I had to grow up overnight, and it was hard, and I remember going to bed at night and literally feeling the weight of the world on my chest. But every single morning, and I think this is probably one of the reasons why I never backslid or or caved to peer pressure, is because every morning I woke up and I felt that his mercies were new for me, and I felt enough strength to make it through each day, and I knew that I knew that came from the Lord, and so I wasn't about to give that that up.

Speaker 9:13

Something short and sweet. Uh, do you like being a pastor's wife?

Speaker 1 9:17

I love it. I I because I was I was born to be a pastor's wife, I think. I just um there are hard parts about it, um, there are challenging parts, but being able to walk with people, walk with families from marriage to dedicating their children all the way to doing funerals for people. We get to be a part of everybody's every aspect of everybody's lives.

Speaker 3 9:44

Yeah.

Speaker 1 9:45

And um, you know, there's a lot of tough parts of it. You don't you don't have your own life sometimes. You live in a glass house. Um, people can be very critical or pick up offenses and leave, and you don't know why they've left and they never talk to you about it, and so you I don't know what I did wrong. And and in the beginning that used to really bother me. Yeah. But now I've realized as long as I stay faithful to the Lord and faithful to my husband and and our calling, um, that's between them and the Lord.

Speaker 10:13

And you're really doing your best. And yeah. So what would you say? Um, you started to get into it, but what would you say are some of the struggles? Because on one hand you're like in the spotlight, but then on one hand, you're also like a very real and honest human being, and you, you know, yeah, I would think the struggles have changed over the years.

Speaker 1 10:31

It's different seasons, and I think that's the way it is for everyone in life. I think early on when we first got married, we were so dirt poor. It was just unbelievable how dirt poor we were. And um, we just both worked really hard and um time was not our own, and we had a lot of expectations on us, and I didn't know how to I didn't know how to balance that or deal with that. And so just trying to please everyone was just miserable. I remember lying in bed one night and thinking, oh my gosh, this person is doesn't like the way my husband's preaching, and her son came home and was complaining, and so now she's mad at my husband, and it would just hurt my feelings because I knew how hard he had worked on that message, and you know, it just it all those kind of people-pleasing tendencies. And I remember fast-forwarding maybe 12-13 years, maybe longer than that, probably longer than that, 18 years. And um, I got Facebook, right, when it came out in 2009, and this person, I saw this person who had criticized my husband early on in our our first year of marriage. I saw her on Facebook and I thought, I haven't thought about her in 17 years. And all of a sudden it hit me. I laid in bed at night worrying about what she thought of me and so upset about the fact that she was critical of my husband, and I haven't thought of her in 17 years. I haven't seen her in 17 years. Why would I let that bother me? And I think something clicked in my mind that people's opinions are people's opinions. We can't please everyone. God has made each and every one of us unique. I'm not for everyone, and that's okay. I I'm as long as I'm doing what God has called me to do, that's all I can do because someday I'm gonna stand before Him in eternity. I'm not accountable to everyone else's opinions, and that doesn't mean that I don't want to do my best for people, but I also need to do my best for God, and that matter that comes first. And so I think learning to balance people pleasing, and then balancing ministry and marriage and having children and time demands, that was really tough because there was a season where I was the worship pastor and my husband was the youth pastor, and we did ministry together, and then when we had kids, I had to start staying home where I wasn't able to be at everything, and he was on the road for 14 years of our ministry, and so then I had to kind of I used to say I was a happily married single mother because I had to do a lot of things on my own, and that was challenging, but Kurt and I were really good about communicating really well, and I remember someone praying over us when he started Youth Alive that God would give us unique ways to communicate and keep our marriage strong. Okay, and it was shortly after that that Facebook and FaceTime and and we got cell phones and we could text each other and I could call him when he was driving late nights on his way home, and I could keep him awake on the road. And so I remember thinking, wow, that prayer really God has answered it because he gave us great ways to stay in communication. And and one of the things that I'm really thankful for is that Kurt and I, we don't feel like we've ever compromised our marriage, or we've compromised ministry, or we've compromised family. You know, there was a lot a season, a generation where a lot of families suffered because of a husband's call to ministry, and their families had to lose out on a lot of things so that the ministry could succeed. And then I've seen over the years, in 35 years of ministry, because it'll be 35 years for us on May 4th, I've seen the pendulum switch where now couples in ministry are like they're very cautious about ministry because they don't want to give up their family time. And ministry is being sacrificed. And Kurt and I have talked a lot about that, and we've talked about it with our kids who are now 30 and 32, 33 this summer. And we don't feel like we've compromised ministry, and we don't feel like we've compromised what we've given our family and our marriage, but we do feel like we've had to compromise on hobbies and selfish time, yeah. And if that's what we've compromised, we're okay with that. Yeah, you know, and God has now that we're empty nesters, so to speak, um, we've been able to spend more time doing some fun things that we get to do and take vacations, but we didn't get vacations in those early years. We didn't get that kind of thing, but we had each other and we had we loved ministry, and our kids, like I said, are 30 and 33 and they don't resent ministry. They are both in the medical field, but they are both very actively involved in ministry and they love it and they support us and they cheer us on, and so I'm just really thankful for that. You know, I'm gratitude is a big part of my life, yeah, and um, I'm very, very thankful for that.

Speaker 15:14

As far as a um person goes, would you just say that you've been wife, mom, and in ministry, or would you have like other interests or what are your other interests and hobbies?

Speaker 1 15:23

Oh gosh, I love decorating. I've loved decorating from the time I was a young girl. My friend Rhonda had the best Barbie doll collection, and she had the greatest Barbie doll furniture collection. And so I spent many, many days playing at Rhonda's house. Absolutely. And she would do the Barbie's hair and get them dressed and squeeze those tight plastic shoes on, and I was setting up the Barbie furniture, and I'd go outside and I would get leaves and I would put, you know, foliage because you've got to have a plant here and a plant there, and I would set up house. So, and my mom was also colorblind. Um, it's very rare for a woman to be colorblind, it's very easy for a man to be colorblind, but it's very rare for a woman. So my mom was always saying, What color is this? What color is this? And my dad wanted to be an architect, and so he and I would ride around in the summer and get an ice cream cone, and he'd pull up in a neighborhood and he'd say, Tony Lee, what do you think they should do with that house? And I'd say, Well, first of all, they need to trim the trees because you can't even see out the living room window, and they need to change the shutter colors, they need to draw that color out in the brick. And so from the time I was very young, I just I was drawn to that. And then, of course, I think because my parents' marriage was challenging, the atmosphere of our home was really important to me. And so I have a side ministry, I call it a business tree. Um, I don't get a letter, I don't get to spend a lot of time on it now because I am at the church a lot more often as the office admin as well. But um, it's a business tree, it's a business and a ministry that I call uh home by design 356 based off of James chapter 5, um chapter 3, verses 5 and 6, that says the word out of your mouth can be like uh the rudder on a small rudder on a large ship in the face of strong winds or a spark to a fire. It can also impact the atmosphere of your world. My world is Grace Valley Church. That is my world, the people that we get to shepherd and our home. And so when people come into our home, I want them to not come in and be impressed by the decor, I want them to come in and feel like they can kick their feet up and relax and then just go to the cupboard and grab a mug and make themselves a cup of coffee and sit down and open up their heart. And when they leave, I want them to feel like they have hope and joy. And so my house is not about decorating with perfect things. A lot of the things in my home have come from the side of the road. I'm a dumpster diver, but I want people to feel the atmosphere of our home that they are loved and accepted, and that there's hope in Jesus Christ. That's really what creating the atmosphere of your home is to me.

Speaker 17:53

Yeah. So then when would you say that was able you were able to transition from having little kids to then like curating your home to and being what it is today?

Speaker 1 18:05

I I started decorating our home with nothing when our kids were little. And our daughter would come home from school, she'd get off the bus, and we would watch a show on the learning channel on TLC years ago called Trading Spaces. Oh, yeah. And that was our downtime. We would watch, she would come home from school, she'd have a snack, and we would watch Trading Spaces. And I would do that to her room. I would not let her in her room for a weekend, and I would paint it, and I would save up from garage sales, and I'd save my pennies, and I would buy things for her room, and I would redecorate a room and I would do a big reveal. And then my friend started asking me to help. So decorating was always kind of an outlet for me. Um, I remember my husband going away for a weekend of ministry to speak at a youth revival or whatever, a youth retreat, and he would come home and the living room would be a different color or the kitchen would be a different color. And he'd say, I thought you had a lot of things going on this week. And I said, I did, but you know, it just I just felt like I needed to paint this living room. And for some reason, I just felt like that was a release. And it wasn't until you years later when I read Rebecca Lyons' book, Rhythms of Renewal, that I learned that creativity is actually a stress reliever. Yeah. And so for me, painting and decorating was a stress reliever. And ministry comes with a lot of stress, so I had a lot of stress to be relieved. So I did a lot of decorating. Yeah.

Speaker 19:23

So then what like say the kids are little, they got toys and you know stuff everywhere. Would you say that that was a time when you were focusing on the walls and stuff? And then you might not be the most, you know, fancy or decorations, but that you were, you know, if they were because sometimes the kids are making a mess.

Speaker 1 19:39

So how did you how'd you balance that between well we always taught our kids that our home was our sanctuary and that was a happy place to be? And so my kids just cleaned up their toys. You know, we just taught them it takes five minutes to clean up a mess. And our daughter was very much firstborn female. She would go to the church nursery, give you give each of the kids a toy to play with, and when they were done with that, she would take it and put it in the toy box and say, Now what would you like to play with? So she's always been pretty organized, and our son was the same way. So we just um I also taught piano. I think you may have referenced that earlier. I taught piano out of our home for 25 years, and so my home was also my place of employment. Yeah, so we had to keep the toys in a certain part of the house and they had to clean up because I wanted our home to be presentable and a relaxing atmosphere and a clean and organized atmosphere for my students. So it was just kind of the way we roll, we like it that way.

Speaker 20:33

Yeah, I like it's so fun because I like I just love you so much, but then there's like the so many ways were complete opposites, and then there's other things that are like, oh my gosh, I love that. Um, but so would you just say you've always been able to just, you know, oh, I need to get this cleaned up, this cleaned up, and re-fix that, and it's you do it clean up as you go type of style.

Speaker 1 20:53

I'm a strong believer in the cleanup as you go. I I like to clean up as you go, and we would always say to the kids, like on Sunday night, if we wanted to watch the amazing race or watch something fun on TV, we'd say, Okay, 15 minutes, let's do a sweep. And everyone just went to a particular area and started straightening up from the time they were little. Okay. The kids would pick up their toys, make sure their rooms were clean, make sure everything was ready for school, their backpacks were by the door. I'd clean up the kitchen, Kurt would run through the house and put all the stuff on the steps so the kids could take it up and put it in their rooms. And in 15 minutes, we could do a sweep and it was done. But we worked together. But we always referred to our family as Teen Cullison. We didn't we didn't let the kids feel like mom was their slave. We just worked together as a team. Yeah, and I think that's benefited them as nurses too, because now in their nursing field they help one another on their floors. So I think it can feel like part of the team to do that.

Speaker 21:43

So yeah, I've I definitely can feel that that would be beneficial because it's like you for don't do the five minutes tonight, then you'll have ten minutes tomorrow, then fifteen the next day, you know, let the dishes go for a week, and then you got all you know, it makes a big a b big difference. So I um can see how that would. Help a lot. But let's um talk about more, like as you're talking about the ministries and the side businesses and stuff. What I really noticed and appreciated is our women's tea. So we um I think when I first got to um Grace Valley, I th there might not have been one for w one year. Um and then last year that was my first time, and it was um the decorations are great, like the Tiffany blue and the um just the different accents and decorations. But what I'm never gonna forget was um this year's is lemons. Can you can you tell me a little bit of what your inspiration was for um the lemons and how it related to your theme?

Speaker 1 22:42

Well, what the tea is at our church is an opportunity for the women of our church to extend hospitality and to invite people that normally wouldn't come to church. Um maybe a coworker that they know is struggling in their marriage, or a neighbor who's struggling with IVF, or an unsafe family member who's just been really struggling to find peace and let go of bitterness. And so I challenge our women when my husband and I first took this church almost 12 years ago to make the tea about reaching out and extending hospitality. So that's always been the heartbeat of the tea. And we provide an atmosphere where we want women to feel special, we want them to feel loved, we want them to feel walk, walk away feeling like, wow, someone really cares enough about me to give me a fantastic lunch, a great atmosphere, and a good message. And I want women to walk away feeling like, oh, there really is hope in Jesus. And I'm again, I'm from the UP, so I'm just a practical girl. I I'm not, you know, one of these people that is whoo-hoo-hoo, spiritual. I think spiritual is just having Jesus be a part of my everyday practical life. He wants to be a part of how I treat people, he wants to be a part of my thoughts, he wants to be a part of my marriage and how I love my husband and honor him. He wants to be a part of the way I parent my children. Even as adults, we still have influence in our children's lives, and I want that to be very godly. And of course, the way we pastor our church and love our people. And so um, I just believe that God is very practical. He just wants to be a part of our everyday lives, and so I give that, I try to give that in every message. So last year's theme in 2025, our theme was hospitality, and I really extended to the women the idea that hospitality doesn't have to be a Martha Stewart perfect home or an Instagram or a Pinterest style home, but it's really creating that atmosphere where people feel comfortable to come and plop up on your couch and just over a cup of tea or a cup of coffee, just enjoy great conversation that encourages one another. Because I think we need that. There's so much comparison on Instagram and Pinterest, and we all think that we have to measure up to something. And comparison is just it literally is the thief of joy, you know. Roosevelt said that, but there's so much truth to that, and so I wanted women to realize that hospitality is just being yourself and extending what Jesus has done in your life to them, to others, and making it available to people. And so we kind of did that Tiffany Blue Bose theme, right? And we just wanted it elegant and fun and and relaxing. And so when we were done, everyone was like, Oh my gosh, that was so great. The decorations were so awesome. And that's not me. That's I have a team of people. It takes a village to put on a tee for 200 women, and um, we're like, How are we gonna beat this? And it was two weeks later, I walked outside and it was windy and rainy and cold and damp here in Michigan in March. And I was like, I just need some fresh lemonade, I need a happy day, and I just can't wait till spring and summer where I can sit on my deck and have a glass of lemonade, and I saw blue and white stripes and lemons, and um, I was like, you know what? Life has given me some lemons lately, but I'm gonna make lemonade, and that instantly I knew that was gonna be the theme. I I the Lord just plopped that on my heart. That was not a Tony Lee thing at all. And then, like a few months later, Forrest Frank broke his back and wrote the song Making Lemonade, and so I was like, okay, so this is there's no denying this. And when I shared the theme with the our team, they just went wild with it. And and little did I know what my family would walk through starting in August, that my the the role of gratitude in my life would play just a pivotal role in getting me through the last six, seven months in my life. And so when I preached that message, gratitude, I was preaching about what I had walked through. And I think that's for all of us that our story becomes our ministry, right? We go through stuff and we wish it away in our lives, but really God wants to use it so that we can impact others.

Speaker 26:48

That um that's so true, and then so like with the lemons being all these like sour things that we don't we want to wish away, we don't think like think what would be the good in this, then that's where the gratitude comes in to like add that sweetness.

Speaker 1 27:03

Absolutely, because you know, no one is gonna go through life untouched by a lemon. We're gonna have a lemon, a sour day, or we're gonna have a sour season, and we're gonna have maybe multiple sour days and multiple sour seasons, and how we handle those is going to um affect how we grow and move on through life. You know, it's kind of like that speed bump. If you ever are out of town and you forgot something and you have to run to the mall and buy something, and it's a it's a foreign mall to you, and you hit that speed first speed bump and your purse goes flying off the floor, right? And everything spills all over your floor, and your can of mints opens up and your lipstick goes rolling under the seat and and you're like, ah! And then the next time you see that speed bump, you're like, oh, the speed bump. And you may you may not slam on the brakes, but you hit the bump hard and your purse might tip over, but everything doesn't fall out. And by the third time you hit a speed bump, you're like, ah, I see you speed bump, and you slow down in time and you feel the bump, but you recover right away. Yeah, I kind of feel like that's how it is with lemons. You know, if we can allow God to walk with us through that sour season and walk through it with gratitude, we learn something from it. James chapter 1, verse 2 says, when you go through trials, not if, but when you go through trials, we are all gonna walk through sour seasons in our life. And in Romans 8.28, it says that he will work all things together for the good of those that love him. How does he do that? I don't know how he does it, but he does it. But we have to let him because what can happen, and I've seen this in ministry, and this is one of the most heartbreaking things, I think, as a pastor's wife, is when you've poured your heart into people and you've you've loved them and you've wrapped your arms around them and they pick up an offense or they get bitter and they walk away from God. Not even walking away from our church. Um, so you know, in the early days, you had said, what are some of the seasons? That was a hard thing to not be hurt by that when people walked away. But to see them walk away from God is heartbreaking. Because if we will embrace what God has given us, and one of the greatest gifts I believe in dealing with sorrow seasons is gratitude. If we can embrace that, then we can live out James chapter one.

Speaker 29:14

So in ministry, a lot of times you don't know what somebody's dealing with, and they don't know what you're dealing with, but they can share with you, might be going through the worst day they've ever had. How do you deal with it that when you also might be having the worst day?

Speaker 1 29:30

Well, I deal with my bad day in the morning with the Lord, and then I have to leave it there when I go to work, right? And when I go to work, I mean not only as the office admin, but as the pastor's wife. And that's pretty much a 24-7 thing. You know, I can get texts all the time. I remember someone yelling at me at church because they they lashed out at me and said a really they just reacted and lashed out at me and said, You don't know what I'm going through. And they started to give their long list of things. And I had just gotten the my husband had just gotten the diagnosis that he had cancer. And so I was like, Well, don't know what I'm going through either. But you you can't think that, right? You just have to um at the moment I think God equips you to whatever he calls you to, and so for me, I'm able to, even though I might have a quick thought, like, well, you don't know what I'm going through either. God, God kind of says, Tony Lee, do your job. And so I have to snap out of it and I have to minister to that person because they're hurting, right? And I'm I need to be mature, spiritually mature, and um be able to buck up and deal with it. But then there are there have been times where someone has shared something with me, and I said, I've said, you know what, I'm going through it too. I I exactly know what you're going through because this is what I'm going through. Let's support one another, let's pray for one another. And that really turns out to be a bonding experience. I think people who are in ministry get into trouble when they try to act like their life is perfect. Um, Kurt and I have always tried to be real transparent.

Speaker 2 31:08

Yeah.

Speaker 1 31:08

Um, and that's easier for me because I'm I'll share anything and everything. My husband grew up in a minister's home where you don't you try not to say negative things because you don't want people to think that God isn't good, right? And so he grew up you just very private, and so he's being married to me. We've had to balance each other out. He's had to rein me in, and I've had to sometimes say, babe, I need you to be more transparent. And so that's how it works in a marriage, is also how it works in ministry. Being a pastor's wife, is there's give and take. I think being honest with people that I'm not perfect, I've got flaws. I mean, I was just gonna say, I don't think anyone really thinks I'm perfect. It's pretty easy to see that I am not perfect. I'm far from it. But I think that there are some people who come from other experiences, they come from other churches, and they've had that mindset with their pastor's wife or their pastor because they maybe they portrayed that image and they get to know Kurt and I real quick and they realize we're just like everyone else.

Speaker 32:05

And I have to remember too, different seasons of life, and um, it's not always gonna be butterflies and rainbows, and just like me thinking of being, you know, 30 years, 30 years old, having two little kids. It's a lot of things I'll like. I used to complain about, you know, things and even though it was my own habits and that um those that that I was struggling with. Um quick funny story. I w sat with um Pastor Kurt one time and he I re learned real quick that he is uh zero BS and um you need to take uh responsibility for your life. And right like I used to just I wanted to just cry and say it's everyone else's fault and I'm struggling and this is for hard and all these things. But like there's a you know, and there's a truth to yeah, things are hard, and but they're also take responsibility for your part.

Speaker 1 32:57

We're real big believers in grace and truth, right? You've got to give others grace. Our the name of our church is Grace Valley. We believe in giving others grace, but we also have to learn to give ourselves grace, right? Because there are seasons, yeah, and especially for women. I think it's even more prominent in women's lives that we go through different seasons in our lives, but we also have to dish out truth. Yeah, you know, if you love someone and you have a friend and you see them making bad choices, you also need to say, Hey, I love you. God loves you, and He wants you to have joy in your life and success, but you need to step up, little camper, right? Put on your big girl panties and start making some changes. And you eat the elephant one bite at a time. So let's make a list of some of the things that some goals that you want for your life, and then take one bite at a time to make those changes. Because I think the big trouble that a lot of us get into is we try to make all the changes at once. We want someone else's life. There's that comparison thing again. We want someone else's life, we want that, we want organization in our lives, we want a perfect home, but we have two small kids. Yeah, so that may not be attainable then, right? But we can pick up at the end of the day, we can make sure that the dishes are done so that when we wake up in the morning, we're not already feeling overwhelmed. I mean, generals in the military will say one of the reasons they make the military make their beds in the morning is because that's one moment of success. You're starting the day off with success. So start with little things, right? And and be careful not to complain, compare your position to someone else's position. We're all in different places at life, but then also challenge yourself, don't get too comfortable in it because you're gonna stay miserable. So there's that balance between grace and truth in every season of our lives for others and for ourselves.

Speaker 34:46

So, okay, so when your kids were little, what would you say was your commitment for working versus um being like engaged with them and helping them with stuff?

Speaker 1 34:57

I had to work somewhat because Kurt was a youth pastor and then we were a missionary, so we we did not have a lot of money. So I had to work somewhat, but I worked outside the home for a season. Uh I sold Pampered Chef for many years. I taught piano inside the home, and so I could teach, and of course, my kids would get home from school and I was teaching piano, but I had a snack prepared for them. They had their homework to do, they had a list of things that they had to do, and then they could have quiet free time in the back half of our house while I was teaching up front. One day a week when I had to teach really late into the evening, they would get off the bus at a friend's house from church and have dinner and do their homework at that house. So we made it work. I was able to bring in some income. Um, so we've always um tried to make it so that I could be there for the kids, but also I was working, and that meant there was a lot of seasons in my life where I didn't sleep a lot, but I'm making up for it now.

Speaker 35:51

I just moved um the baby into his own room because a lot one of my excuses was, well, I can't get up before the kids because I don't want my alarm to wake up the baby.

unknown 36:00

Yeah.

Speaker 36:00

So I was like, Well, I guess he doesn't have to be in the um right next to my bed right now. He's sleeping mostly through the night, and then I can um set an alarm and then you know see how that's a small bite, right?

Speaker 1 36:12

And it's it's manageable, it's tangible. And so if if you've got a tangible goal, it can be manageable. Yeah.

Speaker 36:19

And like a lot of times I will say, Oh, well, I'm a night, I will so I want to get some stuff done and I'm gonna just stay up until two in the morning and then um do all my journaling and you know, memory keeping and all of the things, but then I'm still not starting my morning off in the word or feeling ready for the day. So that argument just kind of falls apart when I wake up and I'm just like, oh man, or you know, saying, Oh, I have all these chores to do. I'm like, okay, well, if I spend, you know, 15 minutes, um, like 20 minutes at night, you know, doing the things I don't feel like doing, and then waking up to a fresher start, and then if 30 minutes before, you know, ideally 30 minutes before um the kids. But you know, if the baby's uh awake, that can be Jared and the problem. And then spend some time, you know, in the Word. So that way when I'm ready for my four-year-old, um, you know, when Lydia's um ready, she's I don't know where she gets it from, but she talks a lot. Gee, I wonder where. So, like those things, like I'm worried, you know, patience, you know, the tone of voice when I'm ready to like need a discipline. Like, I j for whatever reason I thought my um stepmom spanked my stepbrother. And she said, No, I really didn't. I didn't, you know, me and my five siblings, you know, got um got our butts whooped, and then I just really didn't want to do that um sort of thing. And she said, I smacked his arm once for you know, disobeying, but really it's like the tone of the commanding tone of voice with just no frustration, but like just authority. And then I'm trying to wrap my head around that, but like you know, and then gratitude for the baby and the four and the chatty four-year-old, and knowing that the do like the small things that the baby needs for to because he can't take care of himself, isn't a burden but a blessing to, you know, be able to spend that time with him and then do the chores on the bookends of the day so that way I can be present and you know happy to do all those things. It's all about gratitude, right?

Speaker 1 38:24

Turning those lemons into lemonade.

Speaker 38:27

So, like I th you know, a lot of this is the attitude of gratitude, and you know, and then can you tell me a little bit about this?

Speaker 1 38:36

So this is the Gratitude and Beatitude Journal. It's from the Keeping Company, and um about four, I think it was four years ago, around this time, I had a major fall on the ice and I had a major concussion. And major concussions for people, you know, these kids playing soccer and sports having a concussion, their brains are able to heal a lot faster. But I learned that people who have concussions later in life in their 50s, um, a lot of times a concussion can stir up and uh bring up some past traumas. And so some things that I hadn't dealt with in life, some past hurts. And so I started suffering some anxiety, and someone said to me, Tony Lee, you don't look well. And I said, Well, I fell and slipped and bumped my head on the ice today, and um they said, Well, you know, that's how Bob Sagitt died. He slipped and fell and hit his head, and he never woke up. And so I developed sleep anxiety. I was afraid to go to bed at night because I was afraid I wouldn't wake up. And I know it sounds irrational when you say it out loud, but when your body is in fight or flight mode, and what anxiety, and I've learned all about that, um, that your body just doesn't even know how to respond. And we are made by uh we are made mind, body, and soul, right? So when your body tightens up because of the concussion and the pain, and I had kind of displaced my jaw and all those things. Um, I was having physical symptoms, but then I had that thought, which is your thought life. I was my spirit was like trying super hard to trust God, but the enemy was saying, Look at you, you you're pastor's wife, and you can't trust God. I mean, you're you're feeling all this stress, and I didn't realize that fight or flight and the the thought life and all of that was stemming from past traumas and from the physical what I was going through. So no matter how good of a Christian I was, my spirit was fighting, it's like a three-legged stool, and two of my legs were broken, right? It's not gonna stand. And so I was sharing this with a friend of mine who's a pastor's wife and a great mentor in my life, and I think we all need to mentor someone, but we also need to have mentors in our lives. And she brought me this gratitude journal, and you literally every night at the close of the night, um, you write three sentences or three simple things that you are thankful for for that day. Uh, thankful that I have breath in my lungs, thankful that I slept last night, thankful that I didn't have to make dinner, we had leftovers, and so I could come home from work and just kick back right away, and I didn't have a lot to clean up in the kitchen. I mean, it can be the simplest of things, but what it does is when we exercise gratitude and we're intentional about it and we do it daily, it actually rewires our brains and it actually heals our brains and makes us see things more positively and so and in a healthy way. And so you begin to find yourself going, okay, well, I already wrote that, I already thanked God for the breath of my lungs yesterday. So, hmm, what am I thinking? You have to start going through each day looking for things to be thankful for, and then that's when you really start rewiring your brain because you're now looking for things to be thankful for, and you're like, Oh, I can't wait to put that in my journal tonight. And then you do it every single day for a year, and it literally changed my life, it healed my anxiety, it healed my thought life. I could get I it healed my broken legs, right? Those two broken legs on my stool, it healed it. And so I've been a huge, huge believer and fan of writing down things that we're grateful for and expressing them to others because when when we have lemons, right? Uh the the sour thing, the ingredient, and then we have Jesus as an active part of our life who's the living water, and then we apply gratitude, which is the sugar, we make lemonade. There you go. And a great glass of lemonade is meant to be shared. So share gratitude with other people and thank them for just the simple things. You know, on the way over here, I was even thinking, I'm just so thankful for your passions that you have. And I know you're hard on yourself sometimes as a young mom. I think all young moms are, but you have a passion for reading, you have a passion for knowledge, and you have a desire to share that with other people, and that's what this podcast is all about. So I I applaud you, and I just think that that is fantastic, and we need to do that for one another, we need to encourage one another.

Speaker 42:48

And I'll um say too, like, even when um you're maybe wondering that, oh, is this the right outfit or a pair of shoes, or am I gonna say the wrong thing or do the wrong thing? You know, I really see that you, you know, you always just present yourself so well, and I would have thought I'm like, oh, nothing. Um she's would doing a wonderful job. What does she struggle with? And then, you know, got God definitely took both of us through a ring or the um that's we do that.

Speaker 1 43:14

We're so easy to look at the outward, and God's always reminding us don't look at the outward, but look on the inward because we have no idea what someone's going through. And I think once we learn that lesson, and we learn that we might start learning it in our 30s, definitely in our forties, by your 50s, nailing it, right? But you'll learn that um just what people portray on the outside, you can't judge that because they're when I share my story, my testimony one on one with people, they're kind of blown away. They're like, I had no idea you walked through that. And it's not like I'm going around trying to act like I have my act together, but God has sure done a work in me and God has surrounded me with great people.

Speaker 43:54

I think it's a lot of the joy, you know, you have so much joy, and you're able to walk into church. And you know, be there for others and just like put on that. Um, it's almost like in Colossians chapter three, you're putting on those attributes and then giving that best.

Speaker 1 44:12

Yeah, but um and there have been Sundays, I'll be honest with you, that I'm putting my makeup on in the morning, and um, it's a term in our family, we say painting the barn. And so I'll be painting the barn and getting ready to to go to church. And I'm I've just had a rough day or a sour day or a sour season, and I'm just like, oh, I gotta go and turn it on for people. And the Lord really convicted me, He said, You don't have to turn it on, Tony Lee. You don't have to be anything that I have not made you to be, but I have given you the ability to smile. And there might be someone today at church who just needs you to smile at them. They don't need you to be a pillar, they don't need you to speak wisdom, they don't need you to pray the most miraculous prayer. You just need to smile at them. And I I'd say to myself, okay, that I can do. I can smile.

Speaker 44:58

Uh so a lot of times, so for me growing up, I did I struggle with a lot of just like feeling um unloved and that um I really I wanted to be bubbly and outgoing, and then people were just like saying, Oh, Jesus freak, you're you know, and just being j derogatory and just nasty, and I don't I didn't know how to connect with people, and for whatever reason, I don't know if because I went to a smaller United Methodist church and there weren't other teens, and there just was a total disconnect connect, and I just and then by the time I got to college, I was just like jumping around and bouncing around, smiling and all these things. And I learned that I was trying to present myself to be a person that people wanted to be around, and then finally I learned um I learned years later to just to calm down and enough and like be yourself, but um an in a way that people can say, Oh yeah, I want to be around Michelle. Because like I was turning, I was going from you know, just feeling kind of depressed and just totally unlovable, and that no um just a lot of just hard stuff um happening and then flipping that and then saying, Well, if I'm just happy all the time, then they'll want to be hang out and I'm gonna I was just like and I then I went way too far the other way, and now I'm just like, okay, people like me, people want to be around me, and it's fine. The important thing is that you like you.

Speaker 1 46:25

And I yeah, I think when you learn to like yourself and learn to like who God made you to be, then you don't feel like you have to go to that hundred miles per hour. Yeah, you can just stay in your lane and go the speed limit and be you, and you'll be happier because people will come and go, people's opinions come and go, and it really doesn't matter.

Speaker 46:45

Yeah. So, like the biggest thing uh um today, I um I love the gratitude and I love that realness and that we don't always feel like it. It's not easy. You know, I asked my dad yesterday, uh, um, doing some practice um with um, you know, the speaking and all that, and I said, What how do you feel like writing a sermon? Like, what do you like what in the world? And he I swear sometimes he can be very figurative and he'll go through his, you know, I want to do some exegesis and I want to talk have this, and some people like one-point sermon, some people like three, and I don't want there to be too many, so he wants it to be, you know, maybe like maybe three to five points would be a good, you know, bring bring it home. But like a lot of times, so that genuine um feeling of things aren't gonna be always easy. Life's gonna give us some lemons, but we're gonna keep going and trusting God. So if you're gonna tell, we're gonna talk to the viewers now, if you're gonna tell somebody um just a few things that you always want to remember for yourself and that you might want somebody else to remember.

Speaker 1 47:49

I would say to simply trust in the Lord. Trust in the Lord in in Proverbs 3, 5, and 6, it is my life verse. It says, Trust in the Lord with all your heart, lean not unto thine understanding. In other words, don't try to figure it out, but in all your ways acknowledge Him. Just worship the Lord, then He will direct your steps. That has been my life verse. It's brought in me, it's brought me through several seasons in my life, tough seasons. And I remember the first time I read that verse, and I was like, Lord, I need to trust you. I'm walking through some really tough stuff. My parents divorced, I was in college, I had no money, I had to put myself through college, and I was like, Lord, I I want to trust you, but I don't know how. And he's like, Hello! I'm telling you in this verse, trust in the Lord by leaning not unto thine own understanding. Don't try to always figure everything out, just acknowledge me, acknowledge my goodness, acknowledge that I love you, acknowledge that I am hope, that I can be your strength, I am your source of peace, and then I will direct you. And I saw as I started practicing that in my life, I saw it happen time and time again. But we have to realize it's not gonna always look the way we think it's gonna look, but God's plans for us are good, and He wants to be a part of our everyday life. And I think when we put our selfish desires before what God has for us, that's when we get in a lot of trouble. And so just trust the Lord.

Speaker 49:09

And um even when things are messy, even when things are messy, and even praying we continue to pray, and that's so the um the theme of the show is a messy amen because we're not uh we don't wanna you said earlier that it would break your heart if somebody walk away and they're upset with God and they think that he's turned their back or something. So like we have a messy amen, meaning we're gonna keep praying, we're gonna keep hoping in Jesus.

Speaker 1 49:39

Yep. And our lives are gonna get messy, yeah. But we he'll still walk with us. And if we get angry with him, he understands, but don't walk away.

Speaker 49:47

Yeah.

Speaker 1 49:48

Get angry with him, tell him he can handle it, but don't walk away.

Speaker 49:50

That's um so yeah, that is um as much as I I can imagine for today's conversation, and I hope that you'll continue to continue to tune in, and there will be a devotion to go along with this on um my sub stack, which will be linked in the show notes. And thank you so much for tuning in, and we will see you next time.