Cancer, Calm, and Clinging to Christ

What do you do when the trial comes back... again?

This week I'm sitting down with Holly Maltby, who has walked through cancer not once, not twice, but FOUR times since 2019. And just when she thought the hardest part was behind her, a three year battle with anxiety showed up next. Holly gets honest about the panic attacks, the nights she didn't want to be on this earth anymore, and the moment a wrong word in the ER landed her somewhere she never expected to be.

But this conversation is not about the mess winning. It's about a woman who kept leaning in when she had every reason to pull away. Holly shares the verses she carried in her work pocket like lifelines, the gratitude practice that rewired her anxious brain, and how a prayer team became the hands and feet of Jesus when she couldn't stand on her own.

And then God did something only He could do. After a lifetime of singleness, after obediently walking away from a relationship in her 40s, Holly is getting married this October. To my father-in-law. Yes, you read that right, and yes, I take a little credit 😂 God's in the details, friends.

In this episode we talk about:

• Walking through cancer four times and what it does to your faith
• Anxiety, panic attacks, and the raw stuff we don't say on Sundays
• Gratitude as a weapon, because your brain can't hold anxiety and thankfulness at the same time
• Lifelong singleness, obedience, and a love story only God could write

Key verses: Philippians 4:6-7, 2 Timothy 1:7, Deuteronomy 31:8, Isaiah 41:10, and Holly's favorite, Proverbs 3:5-6

Don't lose your hope. God is always with you, even when you can't feel Him.

The matching devotional with reflection questions is waiting for you over on Substack, and you can find that, the merch shop, and everything else at linktr.ee/Amessyamenpod

You're not alone here. I'm so glad you're here. 🙏

Transcript

Speaker 1 0:10

Welcome back to A Messy Amen. I'm Michelle Torrey and this is a podcast where we talk about the good, the bad, and the holy parts of real life. Today I have Holly Maltby with me, and we will be talking about cancer and anxiety and how all that plays a part in faith and especially in those ups and downs because they're they can be heavy. Hi Holly, how are you doing? Hello, I'm doing fine, thank you. So this has been um so much fun for me to have different um people um share their stories, but um you are the first one that we're really talking about health as the main topic, not just you know a sub-topic type of deal. But you have um how many times have you had cancer?

Speaker 2 0:58

We'll just start with that because I've had cancer four times.

Speaker 1 1:02

Wow. Okay. So where when was the first time?

Speaker 2 1:06

The first time was in 2019.

Speaker 1 1:10

Okay, so this has all been pretty recent.

Speaker 2 1:12

Pretty recent, yeah. It just continues to go on and on.

Speaker 1 1:16

Um and what um what type of cancer was it?

Speaker 2 1:19

Um actually it was breast cancer, it was called um triple negative breast cancer, which is um it's not a hormonal um cancer, but um it's very aggressive and it likes to come back quite a bit.

Speaker 1 1:36

And yeah. So a lot of times you um hear somebody would have um breast cancer and then get um have like a mastectomy, and then it's that's the end of it.

Speaker 2 1:48

Right, you would think.

Speaker 1 1:50

So take me back to the very first diagnosis, what was going through your head, and like how did that play out in the very early days?

Speaker 2 2:00

Well, when I first heard, I of course was very uh anxious and and nervous about it. Um, you know, cancer, breast cancer doesn't run in my family, so it was like, okay, where did this come from? Um, but luckily, um the first time I got it, um, well, I felt a lump and then went in and it um you know was small enough to do a lumpectomy, and um and then I had a little bit of radiation after it, um, and we thought we were good until um a year or so later it came back and it came back larger, and this time the surgeon um suggested a mastectomy, so I I had that done. And that puts you through a lot of different um emotions because as a woman you're losing uh the female part of your body and you look different and um Yeah, it affects you psychologically for a while and um and then I had reconstruction um advised by um the doctors that that was the best way to go, which um went very well, but it it was a lot more scary surgery because one it was done in U of M and it was eight-hour surgery, and you know, they had to do a lot to make sure that everything would come out and have the right blood flow and nerve action and everything like that.

Speaker 1 3:57

So as far sorry, this is gonna be a little personal, but as far as like the reconstruction goes, is that like where they're finding extra fat from somewhere else or like?

Speaker 2 4:06

Well, what they do is they go down to the end of your abdomen here, okay, and they take um they take like a shape like that out, and then they bring those up and form um the beginning of your breast. And then if you want a revision, then they take the fat out of your do liposuction and take the fat out of that. But when they bring it up, they also have to bring up the vessels, you know, because you gotta keep that tissue alive.

Speaker 1 4:43

Okay, yeah.

Speaker 2 4:44

And so um, it's very uh pretty extensive um surgery.

Speaker 1 4:49

So tell me about um being a Christian and like your your faith through all of that.

Speaker 2 4:56

Oh wow, I mean it does it does test your faith. Um I knew God had it, but um there were moments where you know the fear came, and um I remember, you know, praying through different things when I got my chemo for the first time. Um one of the medicines um gave you um neuropathy, and so and so they kind of react reacted that and um they had your hands and feet in ice. Well, the ice was in a bag, but you had to keep your feet on ice, and they put ice over your feet, and then um the same thing with your hands, and um depending on the amount of um medicine, um I had to keep that in for a half hour, and so it was very difficult, especially for toward the end.

Speaker 1 6:00

Oh my god.

Speaker 2 6:01

And I remember praying praying through it.

Speaker 1 6:04

Doesn't that hurt?

Speaker 2 6:05

Yeah, oh my gosh, I remember I don't have neuropathy, thank the Lord, and um, but yeah, I had to um do that three different times. Three different times.

Speaker 6:20

Oh my gosh.

Speaker 2 6:21

So, but yeah, I mean God um was so gracious. Um I had I learned about prayer and I learned how God uses people that are Christians to pray for Christians because I had a large group of friends um from both places, from here and from New York, where I used to live. And it was just amazing um to see how God used that and the strengths of of that.

Speaker 1 7:02

That's amazing. Yeah. Let's um even farther back though, can you tell me a little bit about like your background, upbringing, like jobs, um becoming a Christian?

Speaker 2 7:14

Oh well, I didn't become a Christian um until I was in college.

Speaker 1 7:19

Oh, okay.

Speaker 2 7:20

I did not grow up in a uh Christian home. Um uh my parents grew up going to church, but when they hit college, they um especially my dad um was totally against it. And um I grew up in a very liberal home. Very um um dad was into evolution, you know, all that. Um, but we had you know, we had a nice home, um uh and you know, good parents and everything. And I was born in Michigan and um lived in Michigan a little bit, and then um my dad got a job in Illinois, and then he got uh promoted to New York, um, Buffalo, Niagara Falls area, and that's pretty much where I grew up.

Speaker 1 8:16

Awesome. Yeah, and I can't remember, did you say you've been um you've been back since then to the um Dino barbecue? Dinosaur barbecue?

Speaker 2 8:26

The dinosaur barbecue?

Speaker 1 8:28

It's I'm sorry, so you the Niagara Falls, um how close I I forgot to um um go back to the the detail that was important, but um when you said Niagara Falls is pretty close to Rochester.

Speaker 2 8:41

Oh well yeah, Rochester is about an hour away from Niagara Falls.

Speaker 1 8:48

So you might not be in um like with it coming to like talking about what the new you know places to eat are. No, so it was um about 12 years ago and there was a barbecue place that um I visited New York um one time. Okay, so my apologies. No, that's fine. As like, um, but if you how did you become a Christian in college then?

Speaker 2 9:11

Well, um as a child, my mom wanted us to grow up in a church, but um dad wouldn't w want to go to the you know regular churches, so we went to um Unitarian Universalist Church, which is pretty much a humanistic church. And um when I was younger it was great, um met a lot of friends, um, and we had a good minister and everything, but when I got older they switched ministers and he was very liberal. And I kept thinking, um, but you know, why did you know I wanted to know about more about this Jesus person, you know, and you talk about him, and um, but I wanted to learn more about him because what the minister was doing at the UU church was just so off the wall that you know, so I started seeking that, and um my parents uh moved um my sophomore year of college back to Michigan. Okay. Um and I stayed in New York, and so I um dormed it, and the RA on the floor was a born-again Christian, and she prayed that she would know everybody's status of where they were religious-wise. And um, my roommate, um Elaine, who I've known now for over 40 years, um, she was kind of like in nature and all that, but through us, we both started seeking the Lord with Patty's help and everything. And so Elaine and I pretty much came to the Lord together around the same time. Okay. And um, yeah, so that's how I became Christian.

Speaker 1 11:16

Now you have a history with the Lord.

Speaker 2 11:17

Yes.

Speaker 1 11:18

So then what were you as far as like you said you were anxious, um, going, you know, jumping forward again, you know, with those anxieties and um anxious thoughts, um, and you said you learned how to pray more, and then yes, that would be a pretty devastating blow. Be like, okay, now what? Let's dive into dive into the hard stuff because it's not you know, this isn't one of those like oh yeah, this happened, but everything was fine, and then you know no, it's it's never everything fine.

Speaker 2 11:52

I mean, when you're going through the cancer part, you do have the mental part, but you it's more physical, you know, you're going through the physical part, and um I think that's easier, or at least it was easier for me to get through that with the Lord also, um, than it was um for the anxiety. The anxiety got worse because my cancer was the triple negative that care brings anxiety on and the chemo that you're on um also brings anxiety on. So um, let me think.

Speaker 1 12:34

What would you say? Well, let's let's just tell me some of those thought patterns because we have like we've talked about some hard stuff on this show, and um, and we I don't want to sh ever shy away from these things because if somebody's ever listening and they're like, oh well, I can't become a Christian because I used to think that, or I went through this really hard struggle and got God can't um He wouldn't want me if I used to do like or you know, whatever the case with met um with those, you know, these mental struggles, um, it is um raw and there is some you know the nitty-gritty truth to it. So however you how much you can feel comfortable sharing, what were some of the things that you um you felt that you thought that was you know you struck um were dealing with at the time?

Speaker 2 13:25

Okay. Um so the anxiety came on, and actually what um my friend Elaine was with me because I was recuperating from surgery, and um um we just got into the word. We we um I just had to cling to verses that gave me hope. And um I mean there were times where um I was shaking or um having a major panic attack, and um all I could do was walk around and say one part of a verse just over and over. Um then I learned um through my pastor's wife, um Tony Lee, that I was having a bad episode, and I put it on the prayer women's prayer chain, and she saw it and she called me up, and um she's dealt with anxiety herself, so she explained you know how it works, how your brain works, but she also talked about um being grateful, and the brain cannot function properly if you're um calling up being grateful to the Lord, telling him what you're grateful for, um anxiety can't um win over that, yeah, so you can't have both at the same time. So that that freed me up, and then also um um different verses. If I was having a hard time, um I would get into these verses. I remember going to one of the women's um study the first year, and I was driving with um Elizabeth, um, and I was kind of going through an anxiety um struggle driving there. And um, when we got there, I could hardly walk into the house, and so they immediately went to prayer over me, and um it's it's just amazing um the power that you see happening, and um you know I just tried my best to um cling to the Lord and get in his word and and um and survive.

Speaker 1 15:57

Yeah. So you um I love that you um shared about Tony Lee and the gratitude, and so when was that in relation to the entire women's event that we had about the lemons and the gratitude?

Speaker 2 16:13

Right. Um it was um it was probably at least a year, year and a half before.

Speaker 1 16:21

Nice. Um you had the insider information. Yes, you are the you were the precursor to the the right. There you go. And so as and she um we had a one that was about hospitality and then the gratitude, and um, I've loved listening to her whenever she speaks, whether it's such a good teacher, okay. Yep, occasional, um bring bringing the word occasionally on a Sunday, and then the different special events that she's done as well. And so let's um talk about some of the verses that you've carried with you.

Speaker 2 16:57

Well, um one of the the um verses um that was very strong um for the anxiety part um was um Philippians um four, six, and seven.

Speaker 1 17:15

And that's one um, and you said you forgot to write that one all the way out. All the way out. So I'm gonna read that for you, and then you can tell me what it meant to you. And it says um for uh six and several Philippians four, six and seven. Don't worry about anything, instead pray about everything. Tell God what you need and thank him for all he has done, then you will experience God's peace, which exceeds anything we can understand. His peace will guard your hearts and minds as you live in Christ Jesus.

Speaker 2 17:48

Well, I kind of broke up the verse, you know, um, do not be anxious for anything and um in prayer and petition with thanksgiving. So I would um you know pray to him and and petition him, telling him what I was dealing with at that time, even though he knew knows, um, and then thanking him for what I have and what what he's done, and then um just knowing that he is there and um there's peace and everything. And I would I would recite that one a lot. There's a couple others that I uh recited a lot. Uh 2 Timothy 1 7 that says, For God has not given us the spirit of fear and timidity, but of power, love, and a sound mind. I said that one quite a lot. And um in Deuteronomy um 31 8, the Lord Himself goes before you and will be with you. He will never leave you nor forsake you. Do not be afraid and do not be discouraged.

Speaker 1 19:03

Wait, that says in Deuteronomy 2, because that's in Hebrews. I'll never leave you nor forsake you.

Speaker 2 19:08

Yeah, that's also cross reference. There's one um very similar to that. Yeah, there's a very similar one to that in Isaiah 41 10. So do not be afraid, for I am with you, do not be dismayed, for I am your God, I will be, I will strengthen you and help you. I will hold you, hold you with righteous right hand, with my righteous right hand.

Speaker 1 19:35

So good.

Speaker 2 19:36

So yeah.

Speaker 1 19:37

And then if you ever had to say, like, this is my favorite Bible verse, could you even pick one of them? Or are they all um well?

Speaker 2 19:45

I think my favorite is um Proverbs 3, 5, 6. Very close to the Philippians 4, 6, and 7, but um, trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding and all your ways, submit to him, and he will make your path straight. Yes, because um anxiety, um, you just you don't understand it, and you know, there are times where you don't even want to be on this earth. It's that bad. Yeah, and um, you know, I got to that point several times. I never planned anything, but I got to that point several times.

Speaker 1 20:31

It's it can be like physical in your body and you don't and you can't, you know, you don't know what's going on, or you're you know, it's it can even be like a you know it like a weird in your head thing that's you know turning into like a physical thing and you're just like I don't know where this came from, or you know, certainly yeah, that that's like a a f a major flip side of that um you know the coin of the um you know when we've had a couple people talking about um those moments that they're just like I'm done, I don't want to do this anymore.

Speaker 21:10

Right.

Speaker 1 21:10

They're um the anxiety is the other flip side, and I think that sometimes the um symptoms of like and things that we struggle you can struggle with with anxiety can be a little bit opposite of depression because sometimes with depression you just want to like check out where anxiety will make you feel like hyper vigilant and you're like, oh no, oh no, and then you know, as instead of just I don't want to, you know, I don't care, it doesn't matter, and so even though they're simil like some similar um in some regards, then there can be opposite in others.

Speaker 2 21:48

And and you can get both of them together, yeah, which I did. Um so yeah.

Speaker 1 21:56

Because it just kept well pipe.

Speaker 2 21:58

They bounce off each other. Yes.

Speaker 1 22:00

Your pop their circumstances are not great. Your pa the, you know, and then but as far as the um different times having cancer, how long in between w was it before they came it can't kept coming back?

Speaker 2 22:15

Um I I don't exactly remember the dates, but I was thinking that it was usually a year to a year and a half and it would come back again.

Speaker 1 22:27

So then what were you thinking between those? Because that might be two. Well you're just like, oh I'm fine, everything's fine, and then you're like, but what oh no, what you know right.

Speaker 2 22:38

Well, the first time I got it, um you know, you think that when they say, you know, your margins are good and they test you after and your blood work looks good and everything is, you know, then um, you know, you walk away and and you say, Great, you know. And um, when you meet up with some other cancer people, you talk you talk about how how many years you you've been a survivor. Um, but then when you get it the second time and it's a little worse, then you start thinking, um you start thinking about what could happen. You could you could die from this, you could, you know, and it not that the first one wasn't serious, it was, but it comes even more serious.

Speaker 1 23:32

And not to mention the treatments make you so sick, a lot of times if you're not, you could just, you know, be puking everything you eat, and then you could lose weight and not right.

Speaker 2 23:43

Well, and with breast cancer, the medication that they give you in chemo um takes your hair, you know, you lose your hair, where other cancers you don't. So, yeah. So I lost my hair three times.

Speaker 1 24:02

So uh was it always curly and fluffy, or did it change?

Speaker 2 24:06

Because that's one thing I've heard.

Speaker 3 24:08

Every time it came out a little bit different.

Speaker 2 24:11

The first time it was really curly and um stayed curly. Um it was real tight curl at first and then it was a looser curl. The second time it was more, it was curly, wavy-ish, but it was uncontrolled. You just my hair was just never, it's just that didn't work, you know. And then um the third time um it came in and it came in good and came in with a little um wave to it and curl, and it was manageable. So I was very happy about that.

Speaker 1 24:52

That seems like it would be hard though, because you never know what to expect at that point. Right. Oh, geez. So you um have we have a sense of humor, we're finding these little moments to um laugh about, but I'm also acknowledging how difficult it was, you know. So if you could speak to maybe somebody that is going through this right now, or um they might want to tell um help somebody else that they know going through it, what would you tell them and how would you encourage them?

Speaker 2 25:29

Oh, um well, the cancer, um, you know, um do your research. Um if you feel like um you don't have a good um diagnosis, um, always get a second opinion. Um you know, get um hopefully you'll get an oncologist that you have good rapport with. But um, you know, take it one day at a time, um one step at a time. Um you know, I was very lucky that I um still could work during my treatments. Um toward the end, um I had to move my job to a sit-down job, but um, you know, every cancer is different, so some get really sick and some don't as much. I would um the anxiety side is you need to get a good support system, um, and also through the cancer, you you need to get a prayer team that's 100% that you should do. And um, if you don't believe in the Lord, um they should do that, huh? They should do that, but I mean, uh get counseling if you know, if anything. Um it's a one-day thing at a time, and every time I got the cancer back, it was like not again. I gotta go through this again. How am I gonna go through this again? I can't go through this again.

Speaker 1 27:19

You know, you go through a lot of emotions, and um can you um can you speak a little more on the hope as especially in Jesus? And how that has like we we left we chuckled, but I could not uh fathom not having hope for some of these struggles. Yeah. So how did that um play a part? And as you were anxious and then learning gratitude, how did the um you also keep in mind um the hope of heaven and um what Jesus has done?

Speaker 2 27:54

Right. Well, um through the cancer, um, I learned, you know, the power of prayer um gave me a lot of hope. And um just knowing that people were praying for you and and you could see the evidence of it. I mean, God showed you through different um times of cancer, either going to a certain test or getting chemo or whatever, He He showed you and He gave you the hope. Um, you saw the hope. Um through the anxiety, um just having, I mean, I really had to um focus on the Lord and the hope that he gave me um was strong. And you just like I said, you have to take one day at a time, and you you wake up and you say, Okay, Lord, and you give them gratitude and you praise them and you get up and do what you can. If you can't get up, then uh praise them in bed. Praise them in bed, yeah. I mean, I I don't know how people do it without the Lord.

Speaker 1 29:12

And that's not and not to say that people don't have like different hurts that have you know caused them to question the Lord, right? Because and make maybe have have you once or twice, like as throughout that whole process, is there ever like what would you say would be like the mo like something you might not want to share out loud, but like that we um was just like a raw a moment that um that you caught out to God, be like, why me? Or what like why is this happening again? What did that you know?

Speaker 2 29:43

Um yeah, I definitely thought that way, especially when um um the third time came around. I mean, because that was big. They um and to go to know what you have to go through because you've gone through it before, and to do it again, um just knowing how am I gonna have the strength to do it. Um the only person the only person that can do that is the Lord.

Speaker 30:11

Yeah.

Speaker 2 30:12

And you trust in him more and more. Yeah.

Speaker 1 30:17

So instead of making you want to pull away from God, you just you lean kept leaning in toward him. Oh, definitely. So that's uh um, I'm thankful, you know, for your faith because you know, there have been times where I'm just like, I don't get this, Lord. I really don't understand why, like we can say, you know, we look in James about the let's count a joy to go through trial. Like, I really don't want to right now. Like I I really I like I almost I wanted to be bitter sometimes, right? You know.

Speaker 2 30:53

Well there were times that like it's like Lord help me learn this this uh trial because I don't want to go through it again.

Speaker 1 31:01

You know, and um you're like why how how could this build character if I already done it three times? Like what that's that's not fair. That's so why so can you just m not and say you did?

Speaker 2 31:14

Yeah, yeah. Um but yeah, the the more the more years I went through this, um the more I clung to the Lord.

Speaker 1 31:26

Yeah, you said it's not my strength, it's God's, yes. And you and then you know, of course, there's the verse that says, My grace is sufficient for you. So you're just like well, here we are.

Speaker 2 31:39

Like when the anxiety came, it was like, Are you serious? I just went through four times of cancer and now I gotta deal with anxiety.

Speaker 1 31:51

So after, so what were you thinking? So you're it got worse even after you were um in remission for the fourth time? Your anxiety got worse?

Speaker 2 32:01

Yes, and the anxiety um it's reported that anxiety can come from the chemo and it can come from the triple negative cancer that I had. There's research on that, that that's where it can come.

Speaker 1 32:17

Um what kinds of things were like triggering after after that at that point?

Speaker 2 32:23

Oh, I was just very um afraid. I was afraid of the future, I was afraid of finances, um, just anything that um was in my control, I had to learn to lay it at Jesus' feet. I mean, you know to do that, but when you're going through a lot, you um you really need to do it, and but I had to learn to give it to the Lord.

Speaker 1 32:54

And um And it can be hard in the middle of that, it can be hard to remember things that we've known in our head to like speak like pray over our bodies to be like, oh as soon as that you know that tightness in my chest showed up, I completely forgot everything that was in my brain. Yeah, like well, I didn't know that until you know the next minute or five seconds. I knew that 30 seconds ago. Now for now not so much because it you know right. When did this kind of get better for you then?

Speaker 2 33:27

Um well I went through um a program and I've gone I I've gone through different psychiatrists um during um through it and um been on a lot of different medications um to find one that works. And so I was up and down for a while, for a long while. And then I ended up um going to um a psychiatrist that I liked and a counselor that was I liked, and um he slowly put me on medication that um seemed to work, and um there were times where some didn't, so we had to reverse that, but um I think with all that with the prayer and giving it to the Lord and the counsel, and um I started to um not relax but um understand how anxiety works and so when it starts I would know what to do.

Speaker 1 34:45

Yeah, so what would you feel like if somebody is like really in the thick of it right now, what would you say for like your system um of like these are my steps, this is what I'm doing the moment I realize I'm going into a panic attack, or that I'm my thoughts are spiraling.

Speaker 2 35:02

Okay, so um they say um you know you can walk around, get exercise. They also say you gotta get your focus off of the anxiety of what you're thinking of. So um they had um different um things that you could do, like um you played uh certain number game and um um different um word games to keep your mind active. Um they uh I'm trying to think of some others. Um they even um had like you using your different senses to help you um for like grounding, yeah, for grounding, breathing, um different breathing uh techniques, um uh meditation they have you do.

Speaker 1 36:02

Um yoga. Was your counselor um a Christian? Because they're can say, oh, meditation, yoga, and then you get into like the woo-woo hippie, um, you know, no, then yeah, you don't want to get back into the universalist.

Speaker 2 36:19

No, it wasn't that type of um meditation or you know that I, you know, uh everybody um kind of chose what worked best for them.

Speaker 1 36:32

But they work with you and you were comfortable right, you know, with some of the tip um tips and tricks. Right, yeah. That's awesome. And like and that was uh roughly how long ago that you started to learn um a lot of those ways to help that you've been feeling better.

Speaker 2 36:49

Well um uh soon after I had the anxiety, um, I just went to my regular doctor and she um put me on um something that I was on, you know, 20 years ago. Um and that wasn't didn't seem to be working. So there's a program through um my Michigan um in Midland that um is a day program where you go and you get counseled and you get um tips on on what to do what about your problem and it's like a nine to three thing that you're there. Um so I went through that, but then I had a psychiatrist through that and um a counselor through that, and then um then um unfortunately I um was in the ER one day after a bad attack and a slip of the word um um about suicide. Um the lady took it wrong, and so then I was um sent to um the health the mental health facility and afterwards um I was talking to my therapist and she said you should have never been sent there. And it was it was horrible.

Speaker 1 38:25

Yeah, it was they put you on uh like a 72-hour hold or something?

Speaker 2 38:30

Well, you know, I they strip you of everything, you know, and and when I was there I wasn't really getting any help. I mean it so here I am, but um but my friend I was able to call out, you were able to call out, they couldn't call you, but you could call them out, and my friend um kept saying, Well, you start praying for the people around you, and um you know my eyes were open on how bad mental illness can be, and I you know, I thought, oh, you know, I just have anxiety, and this person is you know, so um yeah, like that's not just, but then you seeing what other things can be involved with that.

Speaker 1 39:25

But like, so when was all that then as you know, as far as you feeling better and you know, not struggling in the thick of anxiety now?

Speaker 2 39:34

Well, after that, then I went through a program with my doctor that you worked with a psychiatrist and a counselor, and I got a little better, but I still struggled, and then the program was done, and so that's when I had to get um my own psychiatrist and own counselor, and um that was kind of the start of going up the hill.

Speaker 1 40:02

So you had ups and downs, and then how long ago was that um all of that?

Speaker 2 40:07

Um the whole my anxiety was um for pretty much three years.

Speaker 1 40:13

Okay.

Speaker 2 40:13

Um it started in part of 23, and um I'm just getting better now. Yeah. Um, so it was a long battle. And you know, it's something that you're always gonna have some anxiety. People do have it. That's put in you to prevent you um for f uh, what is it, fear and flight or whatever that um fight or flight? Fight or flight, yes. You know, that's put in there for you.

Speaker 1 40:45

Um, but but yeah, um but you know things are looking up, right? Yes.

Speaker 2 40:53

God gives you um, I've learned God gives you the desires of your heart if you pursue him.

Speaker 1 41:01

So like we've talked about all kinds of heavy stuff here, you know, sick with an um, sick with anxiety, you know, sick, sick upstairs, sick, um, sick in your chemo, and all these things. But we're gonna switch gears and talk about some happy things and that got how you know God's been gracious and faithful in those um struggles. And now um tell me a little bit more, take me back to February, tell me how God's been gracious and faithful.

Speaker 2 41:28

Well, um I've been single all my life and I've always wanted to get married. Um, but there were times where you know my friends said, well, you know, it's not bad being single, you could do it, and it just never settled with me. I just always wanted to be married, and um but I knew I was getting older, and um I was at uh my woman's Bible study one day, and um one of the girls at the Bible study just happened to um um introduce me or she she asked me if I would want to um meet someone. Um and I um said, well, I guess so. And um and ended up being um a good match and um God gave both him and me the desires of our heart.

Speaker 1 42:35

Okay, I'm gonna pop your bowl just because I cannot any longer. So I'll tell you guys. Um I randomly got the thought.

Speaker 3 42:47

Um she's the friend.

Speaker 1 42:48

I'm the friend. You're welcome. I so I couple we um a couple years ago we uh lost my mother-in-law and it was one of the hardest things um we had gone through, and but then um fairly um soon after that, you know, my father-in-law said, eventually I wanna um get married again, I want to date, um, I'm open to dating um after it's been a year. So a year went by, nothing, you know, nothing happened yet, and but we all knew that the ultimate goal is happiness, not loneliness. That's we don't we don't wish that on him either. And so uh we were at smoker, but I was just like, uh Holly, would it be okay if I gave you my father-in-law's uh phone number? She goes, I don't know, I guess. Like, just completely nonchalant. And she was like, and because somebody had told me that she was um maybe talking to somebody, and so I was like, Are you talking to anybody? And she was uh kind of, not really. I mean it kind of ghost to ghost of him and just like ghost me. And so we're just we don't know what's going on with her. I'm just like, well, if you don't know where it's going, it's not going very far. So um that gave gave him her number and then the rest was history. And tell me what happened next.

Speaker 2 44:17

Well, we started going out, and everything, you know, it just progressed very nicely, and it ended up with a proposal of marriage.

Speaker 1 44:30

Ring on the finger. Very careful one.

Speaker 2 44:33

I mean, God is so faithful and he's so loving and kind.

Speaker 1 44:40

And and he'll and your beloved, your fiance, will tell you tell everybody how long you've been talking. He might remember how many dates you've been on. And because he he was keeping track.

Speaker 2 44:53

Oh, he was.

Speaker 1 44:54

Yeah, he was.

Speaker 2 44:55

Well, we m well, it started what? Uh February 11th or 10th?

Speaker 1 45:00

Something like that.

Speaker 2 45:01

Yeah, and we started just texting. And then we went to calling, and then we set up um a meet and greet, you know, and we ended up sitting there for three and a half hours talking. And um and then the next morning his family kind of persuaded him to ask me to lunch after church. And so And we've been going ever since. So um it's been you know gradual, but um, but no, it I mean, once we knew, yeah, you know, I I but you in a good way older.

Speaker 1 45:43

I mean, well, hey, young or old, um, you you um so you are um will you mind telling us when when the date is?

Speaker 2 45:53

The wedding date is October 17th of this year.

Speaker 1 45:57

So yeah, you it um gradual but steady because you're having like a um a four and a half month engagement, and I did too. So that's nothing wrong with it, and it's um so just remarkable and incredible how God works. And um, just on a whim, uh I kind of I asked you that and it worked out for the best. But you know, and so even after years, okay, tell me about um you said you uh did like a guy way back um a while ago.

Speaker 2 46:34

Um well my fiance name is Barry. He wanted people to know that his name was Barry. You are off the market, yeah, and I'm off the market, so he was worried. Um, but yes, um back when I was in my early 40s, um I met um uh the son of a friend of mine, and um he came to a church um performance or thing, and then he came afterwards just to regular church, and so I thought, well, you know, he's coming to church, you know, and um and soon after that um we started going out and um but he wasn't talking about um Jesus or church or anything. And um just kind of going through the motions, just yeah, kind of going through the motions, and um I think we would have been very compatible together because I liked him and I know he liked me, um, but it says in the word um that you shouldn't be on eating the yoke. And um and I wouldn't have strengthened your faith. Right, and I didn't want to do that, so I was obedient to God's word and broke it off, and that was like one of the hardest things I had to do because this had been a dream of mine, and I'm in my forties, and I have to break off, I'm thinking, my last opportunity to find anybody. But we Barry and I look back now at the steps of his life and the steps of my life and how God um just orchestrated everything to bring us together.

Speaker 1 48:42

And if you love him so much, then it was like the perfect timing, you know that you didn't marry um some guy who wasn't gonna be a faith, you know, right, a strong Christian that you know you know all of the ups and downs let um led you here. And like I'm just gonna say, even the ups and downs led me to Grace Valley, and you know, all there's so much so much that God's always in the details, and there's so much that we can, you know, have be thankful for, right? And so let's even just speak on singleness, because that you know, you're thinking, oh man, I'm doomed. This is never like this is never gonna happen. And like Isaac, like so, um, you know, bless my sister's heart. She used to, you know, she was struggling with the same thing, like a ton, tons of ups and downs. And whether, you know, whether she was like rushing into things the wrong guy or just wondering why there weren't more, you know, nice single guys at church or whatever the case, can can you know encourage somebody now that's thinking, oh geez, this is um, you know, yeah, that's hard.

Speaker 2 49:52

Don't uh yeah, because there were moments where I thought I'm gonna be single and I don't and I didn't want to be, not in my old age. Yeah, I didn't want to be. And um, and so you know, I started praying about it again, you know, more seriously than than some other times. But um yeah, I mean you get people, oh being single's not bad. You don't want to get married, you know. Look what what you have to go through to get married, but but I turned around and say, but you you haven't been single the way I've been single for so long. So the there's you know two sides of the story. Yeah. And um, so I would just I would tell them, um have faith that God really does listen to the desires of your heart, and if you focus your mind and your life on Jesus, then his will will work itself out eventually. Yeah, and he orders our steps if we let him.

Speaker 1 51:09

Yeah. And plus um when you were just work, you know, working all these things out, you also had friends praying about it too, huh?

Speaker 2 51:19

Oh yeah, yes. Actually, my maid of honor, um uh her and her husband, um pray every night, and they they prayed about that for me for many years. And um, well, even um the women's group here, um, you know, they knew they knew that I wanted to be married, and there was a couple other women in the group that want to be married, so now we're like, okay, it's your turn now.

Speaker 1 51:55

Yeah, we you know, prayed it. And we know God's in the details, so yeah, and now it may and if it's the amount of prayers, then now they can be focused on the next person, right? If we know that you'll be taken care of.

Speaker 2 52:11

Because I started I started second guessing myself and wishing that I never, you know. Oh, let the other one go.

Speaker 1 52:21

Oh well, yeah. Now you've got a hunk.

Speaker 2 52:23

Yeah, I got a hunk. He's my handsome.

Speaker 1 52:28

And I can say that because my um my husband looks just like him. But I'm just like, I'm so thr I'm thrilled that, you know, even something as random as be like, well, you want to talk to this guy? And you know, he he's a nice guy, he's got a couple grandkids, you know, he's got a few of them, and then you know, and then you said, okay, and so you were being open to something new. I was being open to something that I'm just like, I don't know if it's gonna work out, or what if it had and that was gonna be awkward for me?

Speaker 3 53:03

Oh yeah.

Speaker 1 53:06

Um, Michelle, that guy you kind of tried to set me up with. Um I knew that in that regard, it would have been good. But then I didn't, you know, as far as like personalities or anything else, like you know, any other you're like, oh, if you had said, well, I hate hunting and fishing, and how dare you kill an animal or whatever the case, you know, and because you guys are opposites in a lot of ways. Yeah, so it's just such a god, um, God thing. And um, and then when we talk about having um prayer and community and how special it is, it's really you know comes to fruition to see how you know God God worked in um fun and mysterious ways, and you've learned through um, you know, Tony Lee and then different people helping, you know, giving you tips and tricks on anxiety. That is a lot to do with community too. Right. Because and I 100% believe that if you um say it out loud, it um you and ask for prayer about it, that it can't have control over you because you're gonna say this is something that I'm working on, and this is something, and then you if you say it, then you can all I think it might help too that you can combat it with biblical truth. Right. You know, so that's why you you know have your list of verses that the um Oh, this went with me when I was working, um, it was in my work pocket, yeah.

Speaker 2 54:45

And when it wasn't, it was in my purse, and it was always with me.

Speaker 1 54:50

Yeah. Like, I guess I would say there's so many different people and ages of people that um that are struggling in in this, right? There's even a book right now, it's called like the anxious generation, and it can talk about how like social media has just like made us, you know, anxious and then comparing and all these things, and as we think about it, like we have you know over-consumed so many things as you know, consumerism and media and information, and it's not always a good thing because that's gonna say, Oh no, I gotta worry about this this problem in this country, this or this or this, and then then I'm gonna, you know, because like what what I can't fix it, right?

Speaker 3 55:44

Right.

Speaker 1 55:45

So we're trying to control things. It's like sit in a rocking chair, it gives you something to do, but it's not gonna get you anywhere. Right. I don't know if you've heard that, but I have always thought it was kind of funny. But like as far as all you know, uh so I'm gonna just give a little plug. These are the new a Messi Men um podcast journals. But so you said a little bit earlier um before we got started that you're not into writing um and you've struggled with like reading and dyslexia and stuff like that. So I am a writer, I love words, word games, literally See, I don't like word games. I love I love talking, but like so I um these are available on the website and you can get them with a hundred or two hundred pages, and they're actually I I thought they were hard um um when I, you know, was um seeing the listing, but they're soft and just like I love the um the feel of them. And but what else you said you like um doing um art and being creative. Yeah. So you could doodle in one of these.

Speaker 2 56:52

I could doodle in one of these, and that that's a good thing. Um when you're um have anxiety, yeah. You have to um have things to to um take that out of your mind, you know. Um, I got back into my knitting and I joined the community center and um I got involved in church. You know, I got involved at the women's study, and I got involved with prime timers, and I do a Zoom Bible study with my New York friends, so um Then they don't have time to be anxious about it. So you don't have time to be anxious, and you have a reason to get up because and to stop that thought pattern forever to get out of bed, yeah.

Speaker 1 57:46

But you can have to stop that thought pattern in order to move on to the next thing, right? And so having some encouraging and fun things going on can help you stay out of your own head, right? I found that especially about like other heavy things like grief and depression and you know feeling like I'm not enough, you know. Well, so and so's um a really good parent, and or you know, so and so's got um you know this going for them, and all of you know, we can think we can come up with some terrible situations either that don't exist or it's not our business a lot of times. Right. So we we don't need to compare ourselves and we need to just get up and you know work on what we can control in a healthy way, right? You know, and take everything else to the to God. And you know, as we wrap up, like there is so much. Um you have so many good bio verses. Sometimes it can be hard to um tie in certain um verses for a subject matter at like certain episodes, and this is you did my some of my homework for me. So having having some of those verses that have been, you know, staples and for you and just real lifelines, honestly. I did um some little um Bible tip-in cards for one of my small groups was for 911 emergency like Bible verses. So there is some, you know, obviously there's gonna be there's plenty of them for anxiety, and then you know, for encouragement and depression and all the different um things like that. And there it's so good to have that, and I think that everyone should make a list, um, you know, or an index card or whatever the case. Flip flip them back and forth and memorize them all. But like, as if you could um is there anything else you haven't covered that you want people to remember in all this journey of yours? And that they even if they're going through the same type of thing.

Speaker 2 59:55

Um don't lose your hope. Because um that's one of your strongholds that you hold on to, and know that God is always with you. You might not feel like he is, but he's right there beside you, going through everything with you.

Speaker 1 1:00:21

Yeah. And then as far as the show goes, the title of the whole thing is a messy amen. What does that make you think of? And what is that what would that mean to you?

Speaker 2 1:00:34

For me, a messy amen is the messy would be your trial or your situation that's bad or anything that you're going through that is um not ignored. Um and the amen is is like you've won. God's won. You finally won that trial, that testing.

Speaker 1 1:01:03

I love that. Each person continues to bring um a special um personal touch to that, and I really I love that. Um the way that you said that. And again, this has been such a great conversation. And as we wrap up, don't forget to check out a companion article over on Substack as a devotional and reflection questions, and then on the merch shop you can find mugs and the journals are so cool. I love them. And then if you didn't notice, we got shirts. So these are really cool, the um double-sided ones. There's also long sleeve shirts, and then there's some bookmarks. So somewhere, you haven't got there's actually a few sets of these. So if you haven't checked out the bookmark section, those are really cute as well. You can um print them on cardstock or just print them out and then laminate them. All of the both, but as always, thank you so much for being here. I um love you guys, appreciate it, and we'll see.