Messy, Molded, and Made New

What do you do with a life that started in chaos and kept piling on? Abuse, addiction, broken marriages, eating disorders, children with rare diseases, open heart surgery, paralysis, and a moment where Sunni Henry literally died on the operating table and came back. This is not a tidy story. But it is a redemption story, and those are the ones worth telling.

In this episode I sit down with Sunni Henry, recovery coach, prison chaplain, street evangelist, and one of the most genuinely fearless women I have ever met. She grew up bouncing between a mosque, a Jehovah’s Witness hall, and a satanic gathering before a coworker named Kimberly invited her to church in Southern California and everything changed. Since then, Sunni has spent decades showing up for people the world has written off, in prisons, under bridges, in juvenile detention centers, and in the lives of kids who just needed someone to say, I am so glad you are here.

We talk about identity, labels, the word that tells us not to remember the former things, what it looks like to love a child who has walked away, and why it is always okay to not be okay.

This one hit different. I think you are going to feel that too.

You can find all the links including the merch shop over at amessyamenpod.com. Find us on socials @amessyamenpod.

You are not alone here. 🙏

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Life isn't always Sunday best. Sometimes your faith is put to the test. If you feel unseen and all alone, it's time for stories you've never- Hello and welcome back to Messi Amen.

SPEAKER_01 0:12

This is the show where we talk about the good, the bad, and the holy parts of real life. I'm Michelle Torrey, and this is episode twelve. Today we have Sonny Henry with us. Hey, how's it going?

SPEAKER_03 0:23

Good, I'm excited.

SPEAKER_01 0:25

So, one thing about you is you're pretty much just me, but 30 years older. So we've had um a lot of similar um traumas, quirks, personality traits, and so much that um I don't remember when we met, but as as soon as we did, we we've always um you know come back and um back and you know to just have fun and chit-chat and all the things. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 0:51

We always related very well quickly.

SPEAKER_01 0:53

When yeah, when I think at least it was probably at least 15 years ago, wasn't it?

SPEAKER_03 0:58

Yeah, you were a teenager. You were young.

SPEAKER_01 1:00

Yeah, so hit it off right away. You know, I was a you know hot mess express, but I love it.

SPEAKER_03 1:05

I was in my uh late almost late 40s and I remember meeting you at a Christian motorcycle gathering.

SPEAKER_04 1:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:12

So and then you had some good um we had good mutual friends who may might have introduced you to the whole association. Yes, I'm assuming.

SPEAKER_03 1:21

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:21

So um let's um I always ask um to get into the um background of stories and you know, a little bit of upbringing, and maybe um uh we've had some unfortunate themes of parents that weren't always very nice.

SPEAKER_03 1:36

That's the truth. Coming from a background with a Lebanese father, and I don't even I think my mom was a Christian easier. No, she wasn't even a Christian, she's Catholic. Oh they call that a Keister Catholic. Oh Christmas Easter Catholic. Oh Keister Catholic.

SPEAKER_01 1:53

Yeah, so didn't w she didn't want to really wasn't interested in going to church at the except for oh yeah, I guess we have to. It's Christmas time.

SPEAKER_03 2:01

Well, the funny part was is my mom being um raised in the Catholic Church and my my dad being raised Muslim, and then when they got together, they tried the mosque, and then they went from that to Jehovah's Witness. So it was such a crazy radical change. And I remember with my personality, which you know you understand, because we're a lot alike, I was the only one out of seven children, and my mom and dad didn't even partake that I would go door to door with the brothers and sisters of the the they call it the JW knock, you know, that's a common thing, or the Jehovah Witness knock. And I actually went door to door, and uh I I think it's kind of funny. I was like this elementary child. I had no fear, elementary child going door to door with these other elders, you know. So my mom and dad would dump me off at the church with other elders, and and then I did uh I did um monologue dramas as a little girl off the watchtower in the awake. And uh I remember reading one one time going, This is not truth. And I knew that as a little girl, like God was already speaking to me that none of this was true.

SPEAKER_01 3:10

That's crazy, very young. So just let's say you had to give us just a snapshot, because we went through some of this stuff already. But if you gave everyone a snapshot before we get into things of ages, you know, four to eighteen, what would you say? Snapshot of my age. So um just like a rough overview of some of the things that you went through.

SPEAKER_03 3:35

So, um my uh family is the kind of family that we had to put up an image and make sure everybody thought uh thought that we had this perfect family. And it was like, you know, everything in our life was this suck it up buttercup. Don't talk about it, don't ever express feelings. And I'm a very uh expressive, dramatic, uh extrovert, extrovert person. So that is very hard and a free spirit by nature. And by about four to five years old, um, I was being introduced to uh pornography from from a family member and um being in the Lebanese family too, and around a lot of Muslim men, um, there was all that too. And then uh I started being molested as a little girl. I was like four or five years old. So I got pretty messed up in all that. And then from that point, uh being um being in that uh arena of being a free spirit and going through that, by five years old, I was already shoplifting, I was shoplifting cigarettes, I was smoking, I was already like seeking out attention from boys, I was already like um stealing from school even like the show and tell gifts. They are uh what do they call it, the show and tell um things that kids would bring. I would steal 'em. And uh, but yeah, at the same time, I was a very smart kid. I was always learning quickly. I learned fast everything. Um, but I was bored in school too. And um and I just remember like I was always just this messy child. Um and my home, my my mother had a hard time with me. She was very jealous of me. I was this blue-eyed blonde child, um, full of life, always full of life. And uh I was the only blue-eyed blonde child in all the siblings. And um I remember in even junior high school, I was already even like I was already not only shoplifting, I was breaking into homes. And I was vandalizing um homes and I was vandalizing cars as they would drive by. I was just really messy. Um, I was dumpster diving uh for things as a little girl. Um, so I did everything to escape and get attention. Um but at the same time, in school, the teachers loved me. Like I was never in trouble at school. Um and they loved me, they loved my personality. Some of them had a hard time handling me because I was like, I could talk a thousand miles a minute. So, um, all the way up through high school. Um just and then it became a heavy partier in high school. Drugs, alcohol, smoking weed, um boys. Um, so that's kind of a nutshell of like yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:14

So anything that was around you were in it and it was all, you know, just spiraling from that abuse and um the emotions, right?

SPEAKER_03 6:26

Yeah, and I was considered the class clown my whole life. Um and I lived up to it and the uh free spirit.

SPEAKER_01 6:36

That's right. You're controlling the situation there. Yeah, yeah, for real. And um, so then um w what would you say would be that some of the other themes as you how that you know influenced your young adult life with, you know, men and all the things?

SPEAKER_03 6:55

So um in all of that too, I was also a pom-pong girl and I was very active in sports and very active in school. So from there, um when I got out of school, um I left home very young. I went to California. I was like, I'm getting out of here, I'm going to the big state, you know, the the fun state where you can be whatever you want to be. And I did, and my um so I ended up going out to California, Southern California, and actually my uh first husband uh was stationed out in Southern California, um, for the Air Force, in the Air Force base. So it was just perfect. Um But I remember the labels as a child and I tried to shake those labels. The the um hyper child, she's too much, she talks too much, she's weird, she's um odd, and all those labels I always tried to shake off in my life. So I thought, well, if I'm in California, they all fit, you know, didn't matter. Um so I started doing real estate out there, it was called property management actually. Um made really good money, was really good at it, was uh married to a military man. Um, but at the same time I realized that you can run, but you can't hide. And I'll everything started coming back up. Um and uh I was invited to a party and uh went to a party and I had some attention by other men and one specific, so I ruined my first marriage. So I went through that label, like, oh she's messy, she ruined the first marriage. She's she's a a label now of that. And praising God though that in all of that, my ex-husband, my first husband and I are now friends. I've asked for forgiveness, his wife and I are now friends, and uh yeah, we spent uh a lot of time together at one of our class reunions just slashed two years ago, just loving on each other, and I've asked for forgiveness, and there's been such a glorious time through all that. And I was able to thank her for being what he needed when I was not good to him and I left him. So God is so good in that.

SPEAKER_01 9:02

Yeah, owned owned the sin, but then yeah Yeah, I owned it all.

SPEAKER_03 9:05

I said, Everything was me. He did nothing, and I said, I am so grateful for you that you slipped right in there and swept him off of out and out of all that, and you were the miracle for him.

SPEAKER_02 9:17

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_03 9:17

And she was just looking at me like, Wow, but that's what God does, right? God shows love and compassion. Um, but through all of that, um, and I struggled with an eating disorder also back then. Um so God delivered me from that. I was really sick. But then the beauty of all that, going back to being in Southern California, when I left my uh first husband and uh ruined the marriage, I ruined it. Um the forgiveness is now there.

SPEAKER_01 9:47

We're talking about you gotta let me uh do do something here. You're you're doing it great with your stor um the timeline of your story. But let me let me jump in. You know, you have all this background of didn't know God, didn't know Jesus, um, didn't go to church, and so and then now seeing you, now charismatic, um spirit-filled, bubbly and unashamed. Unashamed. Unashamed, unbridled, just goofy and just so confident because God, you know, loved you uh um even before you were born and knew you were gonna um exactly have who you were going to be and what your personality was like. So how did you meet him? How did I meet him?

SPEAKER_03 10:33

Well, Southern California um I was doing property management like I mentioned earlier, and I got moved to um another area on Riverside to do property management. And there's this bubbly girl that walks in. So we just hired her, her name was Kimberly. I would do anything to find her again. I would I'm praying that um someday God will let me meet her again. And she was just full of life, and she would be singing worship songs, and I never heard of worship songs. I never even heard of Jesus, right? And I would have my radio on and I would have like ACDC on Def Leopard Kiss, and she would just gently, can I please change that? And she put this worship music on. Never heard of Dallas Holmes and all these people, David Meese. Um neither have I. Yeah, and she would sing them, right? And she was beautiful, and then she would um slowly we became friends because she would always ask if I can hang out with her and have dinner with her, and then slowly she would be like, Can you will you want to come to church? And I'm like, I hate church. I want nothing to do with church. I hate it. Because I went to the mosque as a little girl, then Jehovah's Witness, and then I was in the satanic worship. So by then I'm like, get me away from church, not knowing that there's a difference, right? And then um we became friends and we would hang out, and um, she sang like an angel, and then one day she's like, Um, I was offered to sing a solo, and I would love for you to come hear me sing. Would you at least come for that and come to church? And well, then I'm like, Of course. So I went to this church called Harvest in Southern California. So if you've ever heard of Gray Glory and seen the Jesus Revolution movie, the Gray Glory was my pastor.

SPEAKER_01 12:20

He was the man in Southern California. That led me to Jesus Revolution. How big was it at the time?

SPEAKER_03 12:27

Massive. So when I walked up to that church, I'm like, whoa, there's this big church in the mountains. And the cool thing was though, because I love um I love diversity. I love extrovert kind of the way people dress and do their hair and um etc. That's the word, thank you. And I'm like, I see all these motorcycles, and I see people with vest on and leather vest, and I'm like, what is that? You know, and I'm all excited, because I've always been a motorcycle uh rider. And the people with mohawks and earrings and tattoos and crazy uh weird clothes. I'm like, this is church? No way in a mosque would you ever see that, or no way in a Jehovah's Witness Hall you'd ever see that, right? And I'm like, this is church, like what's going on? She's like, Yeah, this is church. You come as you are. I'm like, okay. So um people are in shorts, you know, all that. So I I go in there and people are like wanting to hug me. I'm like, people are hugging me in church and just being all friendly. And then what after she sang her solo, she's like, Okay, we're gonna go into the big the big sanctuary. And this was a Saturday evening. So they have a big worship night. I've never been a part of worship. There's a band, like rock and roll band that is Christian. Yeah. So I'm listening intently to the words, and I'm like, wow, it's amazing. So I'm just watching.

SPEAKER_01 13:53

And anyway, I I get emotional about it. What do you remember what what they said? Like what what was a c good line in the song?

SPEAKER_03 14:02

Oh, I all I remember was all of a sudden these people are worshiping the Lord, and I've never seen anything like it in this band. There's smoke coming out behind the drummer and and people raising their hands, and I've never in my life seen that, and just people full of joy, and all these people with diversity and and eccentric, you know, wear and stuff, and I'm like, what is going on? And um Greg Lori cup came up on stage and um Kathy, his wife, and he uh to introduce her like he wanted to talk. I guess he always brought her up there and he was sharing about um the death of his son and all these stories and stuff, and talked about the salvation and I never heard of that. And his I was listening intently to every word he spoke and what he talked about and what he was sharing and um I remember sitting there and I was starting to like grip my seat and Kimberly was watching me and he did the salvation prayer and I looked at her and I'm like, I ain't going up to that altar. That is weird. I didn't know it was even an altar, and I'm looking at her like, no way. And she said she saw my two angels behind me, and before you know it, I was down at that altar and I was weeping.

unknown 15:22

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 15:23

Yeah. I was crying out to the Lord, I'll never forget it. Right in front of Greg Lori. Sorry to be emotional, but why am I apologizing? That's literally one of the highlights of each episode. And um, I remember I was like, How did I even get down there? And I was literally like wet right down there, and Greg Laurie was right in front of me up there, and I just remember crying out to the Lord and going, like, wow, like here is the moment. Like, I'll never forget it. And it was like in in harvest, it was with Greg Laurie. So it was in 1988 in April. Yeah, on a Saturday evening, one of his services, and so from that day forward, I have never turned back. Did you ever go to one of those beach gatherings? I did. I was there. I was um I went to uh the one where they go to the cove, um Pirate's Cove.

SPEAKER_04 16:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 16:19

I went there, and I will never forget. I stood on the big rock in the back, and uh I never did the baptism though. I didn't understand baptism.

SPEAKER_04 16:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 16:28

Um, and I I want to go back though. I will go back. I'm already planning on it. That's so cool. Yeah, I will be going back.

SPEAKER_01 16:34

So then you were in California, but now we're in Michigan. Yeah. Different weather, different folks, yeah, different churches, different strokes and different I didn't know where I was going with that. But um then, so you with an then eventually you met a second husband. I did.

SPEAKER_03 16:53

Um, not the way I should have.

unknown 16:54

No.

SPEAKER_03 16:55

The Lord even told me not to marry him, and I did not listen. But I didn't know it was the Lord's voice. I I was wrestling, was it God or was it the devil, right? Because it was a brand new Christian, brand brand new, and this guy was a Christian, um, the man I married, and he even knew that I wasn't supposed to marry him. So he, as a Christian his whole life, knew he wasn't supposed to marry me. I know, right? But he wanted a wife, and he's like, You're pr you're beautiful and you're bubbly and and you're now a Christian, and I've I've been wanting a wife, so I'm just gonna scoop you up. So it was like a really messy, messy amen now. Anyway, um, so we ended up getting married uh six months later after we met and military pilot, so we packed up how military of him. A how military of him, for real.

SPEAKER_01 17:47

And shout out to any good guys in the military.

SPEAKER_03 17:50

Yeah, please don't do that to a woman. And we ended up moving to Randolph Air Force Base because he had to do some training. So it was a really random, crazy and then I had just gotten hired by American Airlines the same month that he had asked me to marry him, and I did not take I went for the interview, they hired me, they loved me, and I ended up not taking the job. For like a flight attendant?

SPEAKER_01 18:16

You would have been so good at that.

SPEAKER_03 18:19

I know.

SPEAKER_01 18:19

If I could go back to be like 18, I would have been a flight attendant or something. Yeah. Something where you're seeing people and it's new and exciting all the time. You're like, oh yeah, today I'm going here, here, here. What you should have.

SPEAKER_03 18:34

Got hired like that. They wanted to be on there and they were like, We're ready for you. And I did not take it. And um he talked me out of it. He didn't want a wife traveling, and and I should not have listened. And I I really was I was messy. I was messy from all the past. I never I didn't know you deal with the past, you know.

SPEAKER_01 18:55

Yeah. I wasn't raised to deal with things. Yeah. And and so many people, you know, say, you know, fifty to seventy years old, yeah will struggle with not dealing with stuff. And yes. They're like, oh yeah, oh well, just get over it. That's what I was raised to. Oh well. Like, and so sometimes you you say it I think personally it can be hard to figure out w the biblical way to go about the feelings and all that, because I think there's a lot of new age and woo-woo, like we're and there's a term I and I'm kind of like it's kind of weird, and I don't know uh you might have heard it more than me, but it's called shadow work.

SPEAKER_03 19:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:38

You've heard of that? Yeah. So it's I I don't know what the actual definition and what people call um in describe it as, but it's seems like a lot of like inner child, like feeling work and not all not always like not Christ-centered. Right. So I like for me growing up, I was like, I have a lot of feelings. I there's a lot of bad stuff that's happened. It's like now what? And then even because per personally, I have a lot of good things going on, but then there's can be a lot of sad stuff simultaneously. Right. And as Christians, we're promised trials, we're promised that on earth there's gonna be heartache. Right. But then Jesus says, Take heart, I've overcome the world. I'm just like, I don't know if I'm going to, like, yeah. So, but you you're a baby Christian, gotten torn, you know, ended up moving states, and you're in Texas, then what then what happened?

SPEAKER_03 20:36

So I'm in Texas, and already I started seeing this man just looking at other woman in front of me, found out he was doing I'm just gonna be real, you know, into pornography and just treating me like I was just an item. But I thought, well, maybe this is what it's supposed to happen. No, he's a pilot, he's got status, he's an Air Force pilot. Um, maybe this is what I deserve because of what I just did to my first husband. So I just went along with it. Plus I'm a Christian now, you don't divorce, you know, and you hear that all the time and don't talk about it. You know, this is your sin, you you caused this, now you gotta live with because in the in the religious world, see, there's religion and relationship. So the enemy used what I went through and my vulnerability to to get me in religion, yeah, not relationship. So I didn't understand the difference for a long time. And I remember even learning from uh Christian women teaching me you submit, you make that man happy, basically. Whatever he wants, you do it. And you do not divorce, and you do not, you know, you have to be everything that that man needs to respect him.

SPEAKER_02 21:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:55

Not understanding that, um, there's a whole different That's a slippery slip.

SPEAKER_01 22:00

open to abuse and you know pushing to the wayside if they're looking at something they shouldn't then how are you supposed to compete with that?

SPEAKER_03 22:10

And I can't ever no that's so then I had bulimia and anorexia. I had to be a size three and make sure I looked perfect and I was an officer's wife, right? Then his mom, his mom always would tell me, well, you know, you're not pretty enough, you're not smart enough. Um I wanted my son with a degree, uh a woman with a degree and a woman with a career and great success and uh prettier than you and so I went through that too and she fed that to him all the time. Like she wouldn't be the one I would have chosen for you, my son. So that was something I've always lived with and so she's always had that regard towards who I was and um so I lived with that too. And um he was a mama's boy and so you know I was kind of messy again in that arena of well who am I? So I started figuring out who I was in the wrong ways, you know. And then after a while I started discovering who I really was and started becoming a stronger woman in the Lord and seeking God and getting into more Bible studies and getting into getting involved in church. And started seeing like wait a minute no no no I am enough okay I may not be pretty enough to you but it doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_01 23:36

So those are kind of things that I started learning over because what Jesus has done with He's enough that God regards us as He regards Jesus.

SPEAKER_03 23:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:45

So nothing that we can do on our own but all because of Christ.

SPEAKER_03 23:50

Yes. And over time I started becoming a little more bold in who I was before I would be like I'm afraid to say that 'cause someone might not like me or reject me and I'm like so now I don't really care. You know, 'cause I've had to learn like how to be able to stand up and say the right things and because uh even women some of some of the women in the church are very critical and they were the harshest.

SPEAKER_04 24:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:14

Um and then the ones that were jealous oh so you know I had to deal with learning all that so many people dealing with I th I I'm just gonna you know I think it's just generational um habits and things that they were brought up with that they project onto other people because they could be afraid to be real and open and honest. But I'm just like why would it why is it matter? Like if that's how you know it's like we can be kind but also real and then if you're saying like there's nice ways to say things that should be said or if it's oh maybe that's a s like that's a sin we shouldn't do that. But loving people first. So like that um which is always ironic when you get pe sometimes in people in a church that happen to be the ones that might hurt you the worst that are supposed to be there for you and then you you know whatever.

SPEAKER_03 25:15

But Yeah leaders and all that. Well while I was learning this walk and trying to save my marriage and then God blessed me with five children and four that stay I have one that's in heaven, a little boy and four here on earth I was going to do everything I can to raise my children in the Lord and to teach them the beauty of how who Jesus is and who they were and teach them their identity and I was adamant because I was never taught that. And I was a very protective and I was one of those mamas, you know and um so they were raised in the church. They were raised in music they were raised with education they were raised with the Bible. Um and my ex-husband had a hard time with that because he couldn't have his double life right he had the double life going now the drinking and the porn and the strippers and the prostitutes and all his life right and but then he wanted to be in the church too as what he wanted to portray as I'm this Christian father and husband but this is my life when I'm not in the church or at home and I had to keep that all silent. I had to keep it completely quiet to protect my children. So I did. I to and there's a book that God told me to write called I chose the nails so in other words I'm the one that's gonna keep taking the nails um and being nailed to the cross while he's living that life to protect my children. Um kinda doesn't make sense but it will make sense when you're gonna be working on that? Yeah. Okay. Yep. And it's kinda like how Jesus took the nails for us. Um we took the moms will take the nails for our children, you know, for their to keep them protected.

SPEAKER_01 27:01

Do what you know you did what you had to do.

SPEAKER_03 27:03

I did what I had to do.

SPEAKER_01 27:04

You're hoping that they wouldn't end up getting the emotional ramifications and you know divorce at a young age. So your kids were older than you know after you know everything was said and done.

SPEAKER_03 27:16

I purposely stayed in the marriage and that's another part of the book that's called I chose the nails even though I was gonna continue to be abused so I can keep my children from having to go through a young life divorce and that they can still have great medical and have a great home and that can still build them up a home while their father was away a lot doing his double life, his military life.

SPEAKER_02 27:42

Um and so you had to swallow a lot.

SPEAKER_03 27:45

I had to swallow a lot and keep it very quiet and silent. And while his mother was abusive to me, you know, um and then my mother I just was like okay I'm gonna still do this for my children and let them build up their life and graduate and get ready for college so I was able to prep them all for college and you know build their life to go. Yeah. And that's what that was what I had to do and it's it's a lot. There's a lot to my story. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:14

So going from you know that into all the things that you're plugged into now how you're pouring to people can you tell me about how um what you are like keeping busy with now?

SPEAKER_03 28:30

Sure. So when I was raising my children all of them were born with special needs. Uh I shouldn't say special needs overall it was diseases. I have two with a rare disease called Cantodactyl arothopathy coxavase pericarditis. There's only two in the US you say that again for Cantodactyl erothopathy coxat I was just I was just joking. Anyway so they have a rare disease there's like five different diseases all plugged into one I have the only two in the U.S. right and then I have a Turner syndrome daughter and then I have a son that struggles with a really rare form of like um Asperger's it's very off the charts rare and I have a form of really rare Asperger's and um it's a very touch of the Tism right? Yeah and it's just fun I have a fun one my son has a fun one and then he had uh dead bone patches in his body throughout his dead throughout his body that is a little bit of the DNA from the Canthodactyl orothopathic oxavasa pericarditis so what I chose to do for the rest of my life is be there for other parents that had children that um that have struggles. So that's part of what I do too. I became uh I got into recovery um I did that while I was still married because I knew.

SPEAKER_01 29:51

Yes tell me let's dig deep into how you got into recovery and what that looked like in the beginning.

SPEAKER_03 29:57

Okay. So I got into recovery because raising children with all of that and raising them pretty much on my own and my ex-husband had a hard time even of the reality of their diseases. He didn't even know how the name of them he didn't know even know what they really had. Um so um I had to I needed a recovery for that I also need a recovery because I was starting to deal with depression um uh fatigue from juggling all that um and fear um so and I didn't want to end up um where I was gonna end up in drugs and alcohol again or anything like that so I just I chose recovery a Christian recovery and um and then Oh celebrate recovery sorry yes I also did uh one called life recovery for a while so I did celebrate recovery and I I really encouraged that for a lot of people celebrate recovery um and so now I've been doing that almost 15 years and I also teach it in the prison. I love it so um that is one reason why also I did it because losing a son that was very detrimental to my life um I also did it because my husband's addictions I actually turned into compassion for him like why did he get into that addiction? What happened to him? So instead of having I when I learned to forgive him I learned a compassion and overwhelm makes me cry an overwhelming compassion for what he went through. I don't know what he went through I still don't but something had to make him go into that right so when I learned that of forgiveness and how to be compassionate for him I wanted to be able to share that with other people that struggle in that area.

SPEAKER_01 31:44

Um that's why I'm in the prisons too right and then um also uh I was in recovery from my past from being molested drugs alcohol shoplifting all my other sins um and having compassion built up and the understanding to help other people moving forward from that yeah because that and that was a lot way even before you know you probably even knew what was going on. You're just like um but so the some of the unique things that you can do with celebrate recovery and the different things like you can like you said recovering from it's not just the drugs and alcohol because that wasn't even something you had been struggling with as an adult right so what would you say are a couple like things that you heard that um really stuck with you over the years recover like in the beginning because then you said um started you know end up being a mentor yourself.

SPEAKER_03 32:42

Yeah I actually became a recovery coach now in three states and a mental health coach and now I'm becoming a life coach I'm getting that certification. The one thing that stuck with me was I had two gentlemen in my life um uh Craig and um Mike Schwinlin and they said it's okay to not be okay and that's one thing that we say it's all about recovery. It is okay to not be okay and that we're worth recovery. Every person is worth recovery and I had to believe that and in recovery if you stick to it and you keep coming back and you build up on it you know and that I've learned that recovery becomes not just about me but it's all about glorifying the Lord and having a testimony so then I can share it with other people and then helping other people and then in that learning about compassion and love and forgiveness and being able to see people with a non-judgmental eye. And that's a gift that God has given me.

SPEAKER_01 33:41

Yep. And um so back when I spoke with um a friend in episode two we talked a lot about um how s she moved to San Francisco and started seeing things that she didn't grow up with seeing different lifestyles and um stuff like that. And she grew up so sheltered that it was a complete culture shock for one and so she had to learn to you know keep a straight face and you know talking to somebody that might a you know you never know what they're gonna say to her and so she had to learn that there's a lot of um depth and heart that and struggles behind some of these surface level sins that we see. For sure. So how did like so in all the we're talking about like the recovery aspect but how does that play out in a pr in prison? Do you do other ministry on top of the celebrate recovery or is like that the main one?

SPEAKER_03 34:33

Um I do a I do other ministry. Um so I am mainly I'm doing prison ministry right now. I teach recovery but I'm also a chaplain on Sunday nights in the prison and I love that I get to teach Bible and talk we dig into the scripture and we love it. Like it is so much fun. These men I'm in the men's prison right now which is really ironic because being a woman coming in and we literally dig straight into the scripture and seeing the growth in these men and what's really crazy is some of these guys have literally been raised in the church from birth up and they know the Bible better than me. And and uh I I it's like that ironing sharpening iron but it's it behind iron bars, right? And I'm going in and I just think it's really kind of fun to but I love it. Yeah um and there's growth in it.

SPEAKER_01 35:25

What do you think they would tell you was like the disconnect there then so if their parents did what like everything right or they knew the things in their head w how did um how come it wasn't transferred in their heart at the time like w to get them there.

SPEAKER_03 35:40

It's funny that you asked that because this last night we had this conversation two of the men had said um one of them had said that they had so much their father left them when they were little so the disconnect was abandonment and rejection. They felt like they weren't worth fighting for and the father left them. Yeah um so when the mother was doing everything that can to keep them in God and in the church they were broken and rebelled and wouldn't listen.

SPEAKER_01 36:07

There's a wound that's d uh uh you know a ma a mom's not gonna heal that wound the same a lot of times you know when they're single mothers they're they can be phenomenal but it doesn't feel that in the same way. God can God can heal that and then we can pray that you know good men can come alongside when when that happens um which is an another nod to um Brian Pruitt which you said you met him before I love Brian Pruitt. Such an incredible man so I can't wait to send him the link to this episode. Yes so fun. I loved hearing him speak. Because I um so a few years ago I had never heard of Assemblies of God and um but then come to find out I believe if I'm not mistaken you go to um Yep and then the Assembly of God. So you go there I'd never heard of it before you know the last several um few years going to my church but then you also know a guy um Casey Nochi. I love him so I went to Spring Arbor with him and he was a a a year or two old um like a couple years older than um me. Yes or three years older. He was graduating my freshman year and I thought he was you know so nice and then he I think he's a teacher a realtor and Phil Christian and a realtor and all the things so he's a realtor with his parents and I think he's trying to get into politics as you know uh state representative great guy. So it's always funny how there's little connections here and there and this um kindred spirits all around and I was just with his mom two days ago hanging out with her. Well you have to send her this she's like one of my best friends say say my friend Michelle thought the world of your son back when she 5 you know 10 years ago um super close to them cracks me up but as like you know in the I'll I said a before so I've talked um to um Mickey Holm he the um is the president of Forgotten Youth Ministries and um so that they go into um their their goal is to be in juvenile detention centers all over Michigan. They are in Saginaw County and they're um finally branching out into Bay County and but they're um still small but their that's their prayer is to be able to reach out to um si the what do they call it the court officials and the the j um the county judge and the people that would be in charge of those types of you know getting into the facilities and then they um have programs to talk to the youth about um Christ. And so he was saying that you know the difference sometimes the difference is so this kid or this person got caught and somebody else might not have. Yeah. It's a total truth. And there's you know pain and pain in the upbringing a lot of dat um dad issues and um what would you say is another even a thing that somebody might not think of if you're talking about you know prison and that is a misconception. Because you're you're raving about some you know maybe even making friends and you're like oh yeah and praying you know praying that they'll be completely changed getting out someday.

SPEAKER_03 39:26

A lot of them are actually um I had a young man um that was in prison he was so mad he came to my recovery because one of the other prisoners dragged him in right and this kid was raised with uh a pastor knew the Bible better than I did super genius with the Bible but was in jail all the time and then prison all the time and he shared why right and then Danny this kid goes I hate being here I'm only here because of this guy right here and I'm like that's okay I'm glad you're here and he would just sit there like you know mad and angry and he goes I just hate everything about church and I hate God and I I hate my dad and I hate hate hate you know and he's F this F that and I'm like I'm just so glad you're here I'm just glad you're here and I kept telling him that and I'd be like you are so important. Well by the with all of that and by every time he came okay to recovery by the time he left he was in tears because he shared stories after stories about how an angel met him in the cell because we'd pray or he'd start praying and reading the Bible but literally by the time he left he had said that he was leaving that prison as a man of God and a man of forgiving his father a man of forgiving his brother and that he knows he'll never come back. So there's there's a lot more in between but he literally came in with hate and anger so that's why I do it it's all the glory of God. I'm gonna go there even if it's for one man or five men it's for the glory of God and these men to know that they are worth it they matter and they can recover and overcome.

SPEAKER_01 41:08

You don't have to you're not your past you don't have to keep doing these things you've been doing. They're not defined by that. You know it doesn't and so a lot of things um so if you go into the book of Galatians the whole book is about like j um you know justification and grace and stuff. But it's like we're not sinning because we're gonna we're gonna be forgiven anyway. Right. But that no matter what we already did got or been forgiven for that and then we hope to you know not do it again. Yes. And then um as we grow we can s you know sin less and less and be transformed all you know all the things right yes um yes Romans chapter 12. So um that's one of um a verse I like to continue to bring up but a lot of times it's can be a misconception be like oh I sin too much or I you know I can't be redeemed. No we can um be transformed and meet God and then that our um his love for us can tr um transform us to want to you know change. Yes. But I think it's always um can you tell me as far as approaching people that are might be angry and um just mad at the world, hateful and how they're not gonna want to hear oh that you've sinned. Right. They already know. So but or they say and they just might not they don't care they're angry they're feeling you know cold. What would you say is like a couple things that you think has started to break down walls and um been an entry point to um growing that relationship in the conversation. Oh I love this because I love being an evangelist.

SPEAKER_03 43:06

I'm not always good at that um but I'm working on it. I'm actually like you know there's no way I could be a hundred percent or even you know ninety percent but when I see people um and say they're angry or they're mad or even cussing I've had people cuss me out yeah you know and I'm like I'm glad you're getting your feelings out. Yeah you okay? Wanna talk about it? Because I get it. And they're like what do you mean you get it? I get it. And there's a no judgment zone here. So if you want to talk it out I'm right here. I said but God knows you too and he knows you better than I do. And I'll just start talking like that just kind of calm in the sea and let 'em know that I am not judging them and if you want to just get it out talk it out we can either go for food because I'm always hungry go for coffee because I always love coffee and whatever you need to say it's staying right with me. So those are kind of Of approaches, um, I'll let them know that they're worth it to have the time to talk and to get their voice heard. Yeah, because some people want to be just heard, they want to be seen.

SPEAKER_02 44:11

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_01 44:12

One thing I've struggled with is sometimes I say, Well, I'm so sorry, or like I just want attention. Like whether it's having a lot of moms like in us in my circle that have a ton of children.

SPEAKER_04 44:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:24

And so sometimes I say, Well, I want a younger person with no kids, or an older person with no kids, or sometimes because like I don't mind having, you know, 16 kids around and there it's complete chaos. There's there's moments for that. And then sometimes I feel like everything's been so busy, hectic, and um a lot of you know, run all the running around in busyness that sometimes I want to slow down and just have you know attention for me to be able to, you know, unload or you know, get my feelings out or whatever and have time to chat. So I am very I feel very strongly against um some the if somebody would say, you know, some of the tracks that are just the Romans Road or some something like that. Yeah. Because I understand that a lot of times people think things think seem black and white. Right, right. But and I'm not and not to say that there aren't nice people in those types of denominations, but I think um if you can't re if you can't relate or you can't go there emotionally, then you're not gonna understand why that doesn't work. That's right. Because you say um this the sin, throwing sin in somebody's face or something like that isn't gonna help. The um but love, like real biblical love that can meet somebody where they're at is I what's really gonna make a difference. So being in a pr um in with a prison or you know, let's tell me something, some other type of ministry maybe you've done recently. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 45:59

So I do a lot of homeless ministry. I do street ministry. Yeah, I'll randomly just go out in the streets. Um, I'll even go to the woods and find homeless people and bring them food or whatever. Um under the bridges, if I find them under the bridges. Um, so I love doing that. Um, so those are my strongest ones evangelism and outreach for homeless. Um, I do a lot of ministry for like uh camp ministry, you know, signing up for camp. I also love this ministry where it's called Forgiven Ministry, where um we bust children into the ministry that are children of the prisoners. And we bridge the we are trained to bridge the the parent and the children. And sometimes the children they've never seen them, like never met them.

SPEAKER_02 46:48

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_03 46:48

Or it's been years that they've been around their child and we build that bridge and that gap.

SPEAKER_02 46:55

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_03 46:56

So when they are meeting that parent for the first time or for years, sometimes that child is angry or they're scared or they don't know how to act or be.

SPEAKER_01 47:05

What about the parents? Are they um like have they been, you know, rehabbed at all to, you know, b evangelized to?

SPEAKER_03 47:13

So the parent has to earn it while they're in prison. Uh huh. They have to earn the merits to be able to be part of this. It's called one day with God through forgiven ministry.

SPEAKER_04 47:23

Oh.

SPEAKER_03 47:23

So they get to spend the whole entire day with their child or children by earning the merits at prison. And so they sign up for one day with God and they're earning that those merits, right? So then we are with those children, and then we get assigned whichever family we get assigned to. And then when we bust them in, we do a big party with the parent and the children coming together. So there's a daddy-daughter dance, there's there's sports, there's games, there's crafts, there's meals.

SPEAKER_04 47:58

That's so cool.

SPEAKER_03 47:59

And we spend the whole day together. So that's a ministry I love. I do that one. I love it. Um I'm trying to think. There's there's many. Oh, I do a care pregnancy center. Okay. I love helping uh young mothers that are brand new, that are single mothers. Uh mothers help choose life. Uh really big about that. But we also are I love this. Mothers that didn't choose life, how to restore them to forgiveness and still love them. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:31

You know, regret it later. Yes. I believe there's been a lot of research and people have come forward and saying that how they've regretted an abortion.

SPEAKER_03 48:39

Yes, and how we can help them restore them back to um believing like that God does love them and forgives them. Yeah. And how for the next time they end up pregnant that they can choose life and how to do that and how to still get help.

SPEAKER_01 48:54

So we love doing that too. Yeah, a lot of times you see so many angry comments uh that people are, you know, so happy they've done that, or they think, oh, it's you know, the freedom to make their own decisions or whatever. But even just you and I, we're not trying to make our own decisions. We want to honor God and you know, pray for His will for our life. Absolutely. So there's like and it breaks my heart because it's like I don't want somebody to think that I don't want to be loving towards them or I don't want them to feel like a strong independent woman, or what there's so many like because a lot of times social media, there's so many lifestyles and gimmicks out there. Yes. And like, oh yeah, I don't need no man, or the um the there's a lot of culture of oh, I can't stand my husband and my kids, and I don't wanna um I wanna just go out do my own thing, or I need my wine night with the girls, or you know, the different types of mom club mom groups that can joke about stuff. Like if we're gonna joke about, you know, something we don't like about our husband, it needs to be under um conviction and grace. Yeah. And with you know, two ladies' tops that you're gonna push each other back towards towards them. Because I couldn't do this life without my husband, and he um I he's one of my biggest supporters, and I'm I if it if he doesn't have a fan out here on earth, then I'm dead. There you go. His one of um his one of his biggest fans. And I love that. Um, you know, it I I g we give each other a hard time all the time. But because he drives a lot for work, and then his idea of a perfect weekend is to do nothing, and my idea is to do almost everything. So we're we have to have that um put um push back sometimes, and um it's like, well, I just won't want to do anything. I'm like, well, what if we find a weekend to do nothing at my aunt's like house? Oh, there you go. Shout out Aunt Carol if you're listening. Yeah, so like trying to plan stuff, um, two young kids um, you know, trying to go do the thing, like, you know, it's like so I'm doing everything sometimes except the housework, whatever, like whatever the case is, yeah, because I want to um, which it definitely needs to be something um higher on the priorities to honor God and be a good steward of my home and my time. Not saying it's not, but like I want to um I've d dove deep into this show because I want to amplify stories that might not otherwise be heard, and that can cause people to think, um either think about something that they wouldn't have normally understood or to feel less alone. Yes. To understand that if things are messy or they feel vulnerable or forgotten or whatever the case, that they're not alone. That's right. So um, because a lot of times on Sundays we go, we have a great time, then we go home. Yeah. You m you then especially if you might be an introvert, you really might struggle fight con getting connected, even if you want to, because introverts don't hate people. Right. They you know just don't like larger groups. Right. So and I just think it's all interesting how involved you are in the all the different things. And the um the funny thing is you um don't have a full-time job right now to hold um you know hold you back or have any time constraints. Right. So on the flip side of that, um, why don't you have a full-time job?

SPEAKER_03 52:33

So um I do substitute teach a lot. I do go into Maury Spears campus, which I love, which is a detention center. So if that at that um ministry that you were sharing? Yeah. If they want to connect with me, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 52:46

That's so you have a connection with some of the um detention center.

SPEAKER_03 52:50

Okay, perfect. And I teach there. Okay and I love it. So I am a teacher.

SPEAKER_01 52:53

Um that so you can you help teach like regular school subjects in a detention center.

SPEAKER_03 52:59

All subjects.

SPEAKER_01 52:59

What county is that in? It's in Linoe County. Okay, so they can connect. I love teaching, I am a teacher. And so you are connected with like um a judge or a official.

SPEAKER_03 53:10

It's the court, uh, the court division in Lanoe County.

SPEAKER_01 53:13

Perfect.

SPEAKER_03 53:13

Yeah, they actually just hired me for a full-time job, but I turned it down because uh being my age, I don't want to work 14 hours a day. Oh yeah, uh five days a week and being on call and working all holidays. No, thank you. That's just not my thing. Um, the reason I haven't done a full-time job is I have dealt with um in the past uh let's see, 12 years, I have dealt with uh strokes, uh seizures. I've had a brain lesion, brain tumor, brain lesion. Um I've had uh aortic dissection, open art surgery. So if anyone knows about that kind of surgery, Gray's anatomy, less than 1% survived that. And I've actually died on the operating table and they revived me. And from that I had another stroke.

SPEAKER_01 54:02

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_03 54:03

Like after after the surgery? During the surgery, no, I stroked and seized during my aortic dissection.

SPEAKER_01 54:09

Well, they're open.

SPEAKER_03 54:11

So for me to live through that, then um after that I've still had some strokes and seizures, and then I had to have another uh surgery, heart surgery with a triple bypass. And and I not that I was eating unhealthy and eating Big Macs, none of that. I was still exercising. My heart was traumatized since I was a little girl because I had scarlet fever. I didn't even know I had a hole in my heart. They found that when they went into the surgery. What? I had no idea. I grew up with something I didn't even know about.

SPEAKER_01 54:42

So I'm a miracle from your parents were very involved, huh?

SPEAKER_03 54:45

Yeah, not. Um, so well scarlet fever was part of it too, and they think that's why I had the aortic dissection because of the scarlet fever and having a hole in my heart, and then all the abuse just all added up. Then I had a T-bar surgery, mesh, and triple bypass. What's that's where they go into your heart and they uh put in they put in a false valve and put a mesh over your heart because it was uh I have heart disease and had a triple bypass. So all that. And then I've been I came out paralyzed, so I dealt with paralysis and this I was blind for a while. Yeah. Wow, so yeah, and I had a brain aneurysm and survived all that. And they said something about your thyroid. Oh then, oh yeah, I had that back in '92. They found a big uh, they thought it was a goiter goiter, but it was actually a tumor. So they removed that, did a frozen ectomy, and uh they removed my fibro thyroid and caught it just in time before any cancer spread. So, yeah. So a miracle, a miracle. So I've not been able to work full time because I've been still healing, and people are like, well, that happened a long time ago. You've never had what I've had, so you don't understand the healing processes. My, you know, I used to defend myself, but I don't do it anymore.

SPEAKER_01 56:09

No, strokes are gnarly no matter what. Or or seizures. Yes, seizures. You can't, you know, it's but and you can't have too much stress if you have seizures because you don't know what would bring it on.

SPEAKER_03 56:18

Plus I have von Wildebrand's. Uh it's a rare um a rare uh uh blood disorder. So what's that it's my blood is so thin and I don't have platelets that naturally form. So um I have uh heavy fatigue. So I deal with heavy migraines from the seizures and the von Wildebrands. So, you know, there's a miracle upon miracle, grace upon grace. So I do work, um, but I don't work full time. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 56:46

Yeah, that way you get to stay involved with things that are you're passionate about. Because if you're anything like me, if it's not something you're passionate about, you it's hard to do, right?

SPEAKER_03 56:55

And I serve the Lord full time 24-7. Yeah. Like if people that really know me, everything that whatever I do when I wake up is even in the schools, I'm ministering to the students. Yeah. Um, and my number one thing is to wake up and serve the Lord. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 57:12

So how does that look like day to day? Do you gotta be in the word?

SPEAKER_03 57:16

Oh yeah, this is my sword. This is the sword.

SPEAKER_01 57:19

Sword of the spirit.

SPEAKER_03 57:20

And this is what I just taught. I teach this in the prison and when I'm in recovery. And one time I uh told the man, I go, How's how big is a sword that you want to use when you want to defeat the enemy or if you're in a war and all you had was a sword? How big would you want your sword to be? And then we they were looking at me, I go, or have you ever seen Lord of the Rings? How big were their swords, right? And I said, if you do not read the Bible, you'll have this big of a sword. Nothing. Or maybe if you read a little bit, you'll have this big of a sword. And how are you gonna fight a war? Oh, like this, woo, woo, woo, woo. You're not gonna fight an enemy with this little woo-woo-woo-woo. You've gotta build your sword and have this massive sharp sword. And they were laughing. I go, that's the truth, though. That's the truth. If we don't have this word and we don't read it, and we don't know it, yeah, and we don't have a relationship with God, we have this big of a sword, this big of a sword, right?

SPEAKER_01 58:11

Why don't you open it up and tell me some a verse that speaks to you?

SPEAKER_03 58:16

Okay, let me say. Oh my gosh, I love so many verses. Okay, I think my favorite one would be. Well, no, that's not my favorite. I have so many favorites. I love to share Isaiah, a lot of Isaiah.

SPEAKER_01 58:28

Um underline and write me a note while you're at it.

SPEAKER_03 58:31

All right. We were doing John yesterday, too. I love um Isaiah 43. This one we just studied a couple weeks ago at the prison. And I also love this one when people are struggling with their children that have walked away from the Lord or have not said yes, or even estranged children, which I have both of that. Uh one two that walk one that walked away and one that is now estranged. Um, so if we go to Isaiah 43, and uh you go to uh the verse one, I jump into do not be afraid, for I have ransomed you. I have called you by name, you are mine. If we can understand the truth of I have called you by name, nobody, when they put labels on you, those labels can fall off. They will fall off if you know that you have been called by name by the Lord, right? You are mine. So we're nobody else's overall but God's, right? And then we're on loan to other people. And then it says, when you go through deep waters, I will be with you. When you go through rivers of difficulty, you will not drown. When you walk through the fire of oppression, you will not be burned up. So I think about the word oppression, right? Oppression's really heavy in the church, even. We have this this heavy oppression because we're afraid to talk, we're afraid to share, we're uh afraid to be open about real life, right? So oppression can hit. That's where we talk about the demonic attacks and when we need deliverance for healing, right? Um the flames will not consume you. For I am the Lord your God, the holy one of Israel, your savior. You know, Israel we know is our mother country, right? And then I always drop down to five. Do not be afraid, for I am with you.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:17

I will do number four. I really like this. It says, Because you are precious in my sight. Oh, yes, I am honored and I love you.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:24

There you go. You needed to pop in there. Yes, you are precious to me. You are honored, and I love you. He loves us so much. It doesn't even matter about like if we think about that, it's like, wait, but God loves me. Even in my quirky weirdness, strangeness, like you and me are so much alike. We were talking about that. He loves us that way, he made us that way for a reason. Yeah, you know, you wouldn't be doing this if you had a different, you know, personality.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:53

Anything different, yeah. If I had had a full-time career right now, I would might not be doing this.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:58

Right. We don't know, like sometimes the wise. And then I was thinking about this like, do not be afraid, for I am with you. I will gather you and your children from the east and west. I will say to the north and south, bring my sons and daughters back to Israel from the distant corners of the earth. In other words, if we give all of everything over to the Lord, he will bring them back. We just have to say, here they are. We're gonna love them where they're at, no matter what they're doing and how messy they are. Yes. They will bring them back. Like my daughter is coming back, my son is coming back, and I I I believe on that. What I have learned is I know sometimes as mothers, I I'm sure it happens to fathers too, but I I I'm in a support group. And if you can find a support group or you know, get in touch with me, we do the support group for estranged mothers. Um don't give up, keep praying for your children and believe that the Lord He sees everything and He hears everything, He collects all your tears, and that the child is hurting and we don't always know what it is, right? Or they don't share it. But God knows. And that if we just keep the faith and we pray and keep handing it over to the Lord, and if we get out of the way and let God do what He's gotta do, so we have to get out of the way, get out of the flesh, stay in the spirit and trust the Lord. And He will bring them back, He will bring them back, I promise you. And I'm believing that it's gonna happen too. But the key again is prayer and petition and loving them where they're at no matter what. That is what I have had to learn.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:40

Which is you know, very messy and very messy, very um trying and exhausting.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:48

And it is very messy. I have a son that's called me every name in the book, and I s yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:53

But that I never um read I've s highlighted some of the do not be afraid ones. Yeah. Um but I never thought of that right there. I'll bring your offspring from the east and from the west, I will gather you.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:09

He will gather them. I have a son that um joined a whole other lifestyle in the LBGT community, and I have loved him endlessly, recklessly loved him, right? Recklessly abandoned with everything that I am, but he can't receive that love because something is hurting in him. But I'm gonna continue to love him where he's at and see him for who he is. And in that messiness.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:35

Because like we said earlier, there's heart behind there, and there's something that if he might not be telling you or something, um some struggle that you know he's whatever, that makes it complicated. It's not black and white, right? Yeah. So we're not just saying, Oh, you sinner, you blah blah blah. Yeah. We just, you know, we take everything, you take everything that's in stride and keep praying, right?

SPEAKER_03 1:03:59

If I was ever to say to someone, you sinner, I better pull the big old plank out of my eye, and I'm gonna tell you what, my plank is not an oak of righteousness. Yeah, well. So I better be careful.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:08

We're we we don't want to ever admit what Yes. But let um let's jump to um verse 18 and tell me what it says in that version. Is it the one forget about the former things from doing the new thing? Girl, you already know. Yep.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:26

I love that one. Oh yeah, here it is. But forget all that. It is nothing compared to what I am going to do, for I'm about to do something new. See, I've already begun. Do you not see it? I will make a pathway through the wilderness. I will recruit create rivers in the dry wasteland. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:45

And so that I love the NLT for some of the common English that we would love. I it feels like you're um, you know, a b a good friend talking. Yes. You know, our Heavenly Father, but like really um common language. But I also like the reverence and um phrases here. It says, Do not remember the former things or consider the things of old. I am about to do a new thing. Now it springs forth, do you not perceive it? And um I will make a way in the wilderness and rivers in the desert. So it just keeps reminding me that God has so many plans that we don't understand.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:21

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:22

And even in our lit, you know, our little struggles and our big struggles, that um there's so much more that um is beyond our comprehension. Yes. Um I was teaching um Lydia um what was it? Uh some I'm trying to think now. It was a verse and it said incomprehensible. And I told her to remember that is um it's we can't we can't imagine. We can't. And so as if I tell her it what's incomprehensible, we can't imagine. Ah, it's so cute. And so, because that That's a um a doozy of a word. And so if God can do incomprehensible things for us, that we can't we and worrying's not gonna get us anywhere. Nope. And but we can be redeemed and restored in Christ. Yes. So it's gonna work out. It's gonna work out. So there's a fun saying, it's like if um if we're not dead, then God's not done. That's right. There's a couple different versions of it. But what other passage um ca would you like to um share? If some maybe somebody doesn't know very many scriptures at all, like you're you're answering, you know, finishing my sentences, but what if somebody's like newer and you're like you sh need to know this about Jesus, or you this is a God's promise to you? What comes to mind?

SPEAKER_03 1:06:49

So I when people are really brand new, I always tell them to go to the gospels, go right to the gospels, they are so full of life and truth, and they're they're the understanding of the gospels, you get to meet Jesus right there, right? So I would say, like, um gosh, I love all the gospels. Probably Matthew would be my favorite for the beginning of the um the Gospels. Like, if you go to Matthew 3, right, where it talks about uh John the Baptist preparing the way, you know, in the wilderness. Um, you know, reading that and learning about hearing his voice, right? He's always there in the the middle of the world.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:30

Oh, because we were in Isaiah and you're talking about the and right there it says the prophet Isaiah. That's no wonder you like it. This is the one of whom the prophet Isaiah spoke.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:41

Yes, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:43

So now I don't now it's like you could go back. So there are like over 60,000 cross references that um that prove that the text is real and so real divine and that these things happened. Yes, and um so what about that? Um, continue your thought. I apologize. No, that's okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:04

The thing I love about this is it talks about like how John the Baptist prepares the way, and it says, like, um, repent of your sins and turn to God, for the kingdom of heaven is near. And it talks about the prophet Isaiah, he was speaking about um, he is the voice shouting in the wilderness, prepare the way for the Lord is coming, clear the road for him. And this is when Jesus was actually coming into um uh Bethlehem, and he was on a donkey, and they were preparing the way for him. And what that really meant, like, because you know, this is right before he knew that he was getting ready down.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:41

Oh, it it you're thinking it's kind of like a nod to um Palm Sunday.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:45

So that parallel there, that's good. Yeah. Um I um I've heard the funny thing you said, Matthew. I've heard a lot of people recommend John to get into um if you don't know anything about Jesus, um, because in saying in the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God. So that in that sense it was talking about Jesus, and that when God spoke, that Jesus was there and as the firstborn of all creation. Yes. And and um also, you know, Colossians talks a lot about that as a supremacy of Christ. So all of this, what if somebody, you know, you're ministering to somebody in prison and they're listening, and these words are jumping off the page for us, and we're like, wow, this is great. The words alive and living, yeah, sharper than a double-edged sword, and somebody says to you, so what? Yeah. What if what um how mu like how much are you like working on that relationship before cracking open the Bible versus somebody, you know, and getting in like into it? Like, how would that look like in um for you? Like, okay, someone came to me like that. Well, what if you're trying to talk to them and you're excited and they're not they're saying, so what? I don't like what does that mean to me? Oh that this bad thing happened. Yeah. Or God can't care about me.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:04

Yeah, so that's really good. Um, what I would do is just share like a couple verses with them um from the scripture about how God, like the scripture about uh especially in Isaiah, I think about like Isaiah 49, about um we can even go to it. Let's go to Isaiah 49. Um, what I do is I share scriptures about God's love and how he is right there with them, and then it does become living and active, right? But also that I share a little bit of my testimony is how scriptures work for my life, and that he promises to never leave us nor forsake us.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:40

Um, and that um Hebrews 13 in there. Yeah, there we go. I think that's 13.5, if I'm not mistaken. I also share about um got sixty-six books in here, and they're all special in their own way.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:54

They are, and I also share like how when you read the Bible that it's inspired by God, okay, and it's actually a living, active book, and it's the only one in the entire world in all of history that has sold the most copies in the most languages, and even people that are atheists have bought the Bible, and there have been atheists that have tried to prove it wrong and are turning their life over to God, like C. S. Lewis, right? Or like um Was C. S.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:27

Lewis an atheist before? Yes, C.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:29

S. Lewis was an atheist.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:30

Oh, I just that kind of what inspired the screw tape letters? Yes. Okay, I haven't read it, but I I'm reading a book where a character was reading it.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:39

Yes. And Jared Tohian was his best friend, right? No. Yes. What? Yes. I didn't know them. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:48

No wonder it's so interesting how there's um, you know, the good the themes in the different stories. Yes. How the the strong allegories and stuff.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:57

Yeah, all the allegories of uh with the hobbit and the Lord of the Rings. Lord of the Rings.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:02

That's wild.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:03

It all cross-references into the Bible, right? Well, I would share about how this book was the most inspired, and that people have actually been reading it, and as they were trying to even prove it wrong, healings were happening, or they had encounters with angels. And they, you know, so so that's why I would share that, and then I would go to some of the scriptures.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:23

Yeah, what verse in 49 were we?

SPEAKER_03 1:12:25

Um, it was see, this is a whole different uh version than I'm used to.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:29

Do you like slightly more traditional?

SPEAKER_03 1:12:31

No, it's okay. I'm good. I just was thinking about when it talks about rising up like an eagle.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:37

Where God says That's for um 40.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:40

40. Wait, let me see. Is that Isaiah 41?

SPEAKER_01 1:12:43

That's 4031.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:44

Yeah, 4031. Okay. That's what I meant. Thank you. So that's one of my favorites right here, and I read this to people all the time. Um 4031. It starts at 28 if it's a very good thing. Yeah, there we go. When it says, um if we go to 28, have you never heard, have you never understood? The Lord is the everlasting God, the creator of all the earth. He never grows weak or weary. No one can measure the depths of his understanding. He gives power to the weak and strength to the powerless. Even youths will become weak and tired, and young men will fall in exhaustion. But those who trust in the Lord will find his strength. They will soar high on wings of like eagles, they will run and not grow weary, they will walk and not faint. I love to share that because it's all in a nutshell. Here he is, the everlasting God, and that he does understand when we become weak or powerless, that he is right there when we fall, and he gets it, and that we are to rise up. Yeah, he's there for us. Yeah, and he will rise up like an eagle, right? So, like when I share with them about how this is the most sold Bible and the most sold copies and the most languages, and it has become living and active, and it has brought healing to so many people. And like the C. S. Lewis story.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:08

Yeah, people that aren't like aren't wanting it and don't want you know aren't expecting it. So that you made me think of as far as like skeptics and atheists and stuff like that, this book. It's called Censored Science, The Suppressed Evidence, Bruce Malone. I've heard him I've seen him in person twice. Once when I was in high school, my dad invited him to our church um to speak, and then one in the last um couple years at um Grace Valley, and these are um full color spreads of scientific evidence was of um that God created the earth and that um the what do they call it the young earth theory. Yeah. That even though they try to argue with the rocks and some um some things like that, that God has r reasons for all of that, and that's you know, beyond our understanding. But this is under um showing um this um about the geology um geology and it's saying the um the response to the physical model of rapid coal formation, flared sedimentation, and the river valley formation. They're saying like there's just you know, scads and scads, like all the pages about um, you know, the s how fast could everything be created, and we can take a look at that later. But there's so many science like science things. Yeah. So not only are is there like sixty like over sixty or it's either over sixty thousand or over four hundred thousand cross references. I think it might be sixty-six thousand something like that. But the cross references are showing that um there were um evidence of the things happening that were prophesied.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:53

And then um how they talked about in Isaiah as like I really should study it more intensely. I have I haven't as much as I should. But the cross references alone are really cool, um, cool to show evidence that this is not just a book. Right. It's not just man written for the heck of it. Exactly. And that people saw Jesus after he rose from the dead and all the things. So this is you know special for us, and then we want it to, you know, in inspire others, and then even through the prodigal story and through all, you know, through all of these things, it's why it's like we could say, why is it matter to worship God? And then why would we matter? Yeah. Right. It because I taught um my daughter a liturgy and say, Who made you? God made me, why did he make you? To love him and glorify him. Yes appears to be what um what's your what you um how you wake up and live your day life every day.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:58

Absolutely. And I love to share the stories um about the woman at the well, or Mary Magdalene, or the woman with the issue of blood, or like just all kinds of stories. I can go on and on from like all the David. David's one of my favorite, right? Just like here's a guy that He wasn't perfect. He was so like he was basically abandoned and rejected by his own father and brothers. His father looked at him as the lowest son, the weakest son, right? Yeah, and the way God did for him, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:27

And not only that, then he grew up and had um slept with somebody else's wife and had her husband killed to try to cover it up.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:35

Yes, and it was his friend. The husband was his friend and the best soldier.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:39

He was an army um a leader.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:41

A leader.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:42

He was his best leader, and his friend. And then God said he was a man after his own heart. So no matter what, he can redeem us and has and has something special in mind for us. Come on. So we can look at Gideon, who um who and so a lot of times you might even have certain, you know, whether it might be certain denominations or certain um Christian speakers and whatever say that we can't test God. But that's exactly what Gideon did was looking for signs from him. Yes. So that can get misinterpreted for you know, our own sake or whatever. Yes. But when we need encouragement or a little push in the right direction, um, sometimes that's exactly what God gives us. That's exactly right. So give me a little example of something that maybe God's spoken to you or a little God wink or a moment that was like you knew that was God. Oh my goodness. Only one? You can keep you know, it depends how chilly it gets, and you know um how many years we we got the babysitter with the kids at the playground right now.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:48

So we can keep going all God wings. I think my greatest one um would be uh, and I might cry. When I the second, there's so many, but the one I really want to share so people can understand that there are miracles, okay? Um, yeah, I'm trying to because the birth of my children are miracles, but for me to actually see Jesus when I died, and to actually see my son that's in heaven with him. And I got to see them together.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:20

I would say that was probably the most precious. When you had a heart surgery.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:24

Yeah. And knowing like my son is with Jesus and he's safe and he's happy, and he got to speak to me. My son.

unknown 1:19:34

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:35

Yeah. When I was under and I got to see it, like I got to hear it and see it. And I remember the one thing I love about God is he's in the the details of our life. And my favorite color is blue. And God is even into those details. And in there was a blue room that they were in. And when you see him, he's glory, right? There's no way you can describe it. People say, Well, what do you look like? I'm like, you can't describe it. It's a glory look, right? I could describe my son, but I couldn't describe how Jesus looked. It was like a gl like I still can't even talk about it. Because uh I still can't even bring it out. You can't talk about it in a way that's natural because it's in your brain and it's in your mind, it's in your thoughts, and it's a vision, but you know the presence, right? It was so powerful. And that was my Godwing to know that for me to live was a testimony and to see my son knowing that he was with him. So that right there, to believe that there are miracles and that your children are safe with him and they're doing wonderful. So that's something that I would always want to share. Yeah. What else? Oh my goodness. Um, I would say having all of my children born with rare diseases, never to give up and know that in that it's not ever that God did that. We live in a fallen world. We live in a world with disease, right? But that Jesus went to the cross for that disease, he went to the cross and nailed it and he said, It is finished. So when I look at my children and I was raising them and was able, because I asked God for wisdom and discernment how to raise them, that you raise them in the confidence of who they are in Christ, not in the confidence of who they are with a disease or with any illness.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:25

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:26

And you raise them though knowing that they can do anything they put their mind to and along with Christ. And the God wink in that, that God showed me how to do that and instill that in them, and then the God winks of watching them grow into what they became because of Christ. That's another one. Um I would say uh the second time I died, that God wink. And then when I was in the hospital, um it was so funny. My room was covered in all these decorations my friend put in there. And in those moments, I wasn't able to talk. Okay. And when I was starting to be able to get a little voice out, I sounded like a cartoon character. And um, I think your mom and dad had seen me a couple times like that. And in the moments of me healing, I was told that I would probably be six, seven months in the hospital. And I'm like, no. And God showed me and told me I'd be out there pretty quick. But to watch God, because I was told I might never walk again, never talk again, um, and I might stay paralyzed. But I knew that God spoke to me that I would not, and in those moments, I was able to speak life into nurses by writing it down. I was learning how to write left-handed. I couldn't write right-handed. I was uh fully paralyzed and and my right hand. Um, and I was learning how to write left-handed. Um, and I was able to speak life into life in them. All my doctors and all my nurses. And there were um, they were trying to uh they were telling me like that my brain should not work the way it was. Like they would bring in a checkbook and see if I can balance a checkbook, and usually I should not have been able to do that, and I was able to do math right away and math and not not me.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:16

Not my strong suit.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:17

Right, but I just had a brain aneurysm.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:19

I should not be able to do all that, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:23:22

So all those kind of god wings. Wow, yeah. Yeah. So let's um let's say I'm giving you like not like a worksheet, but giving you like some fill-in-the-blinks. One being I was this and with God I am this. What's the first thing that you think of?

SPEAKER_03 1:23:43

I was a victim, but now I'm victorious.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:46

So what if I said with without God, I am this, and with God.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:54

Without God, I'd be dead. Yeah. Like for real. And with God, oh my gosh, that's that's a huge one. With God, I know for a fact that I'm a daughter of God. And I'm uh not only saved and uh walking with grace, and I'm alive, and I'm alive in Him, and I'm an heir to the throne, and I'm a I'm a daughter on the king's court.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:22

I mean, I can go on and on. Yeah. Like so that identity stuff plays a huge part. But so another thing is uh um have you heard the term common grace? So those are like the little good things that happen, yeah, that whether no matter if you're a Christian or not, that's common grace to have, you know, the so think of how much the common grace played a part. Yeah that you you know, you you know, had some mess ups and failures and all what all this stuff in your before you even graduate high school or you know dropped out of high school, whatever. And um all that happened and you could have been dead in the gutter. Several times dead in dead, shot at.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:04

You broke into homes in elementary school.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:08

Come on, who does that? Oh my goodness. So, like the the best the the one of the funniest and most god um god things to me is how similar you and I are. Like we have like the similar quirks, similar um traumas, similar, you know, some similar very similar, some vastly different. Yeah. Um but can you just if so let's say you met me, yeah, and I hadn't been, you know, relatively, you know, on the I ended up going, you know, f falling off the bandwagon a little um a little bit, you know, here and there, you know, b between um going to college for a year and then meeting my husband. So like it di you know, st stuff happens, right? Sometimes, you know, at least sometimes you say fit hits a shan. Yeah. I can't get in trouble, it's my show. He's right. That's right, you got the mic. But when those things happen, let's say you met me, your young literally your younger self. Okay. What would you say now? Like, what would you say now with your experience? Okay. And knowing that you just hit the No, just even even before that. What if you wanted to prov like what if I was a teenager and you wanted to love me to not do those things? Okay. Um I wasn't breaking any laws as a teenager, but I sure was going through I like I sure felt like lost, uh, you know, just that I wanted somebody to see me and talk to me about my feelings.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:46

Yeah. I I love, I love um, I I'm called the match by many people. I light the match. In other words, I can go up to anybody and just light the match and start a conversation. I'll start the fire, the Holy Spirit fire. I thought you were gonna say match somebody's energy and be like, oh well, but I'm still single, so that's probably not the truth, obviously. Um, so um I would probably being a young lady just be like, hey, um, my name's Sonny, and just start a conversation that way right away. And um start asking about your life. Like start at do you go to school? What are you going to school for? And then um, what do you love about it? I would actually start that way. I don't go right into bam. Yeah, because that can be scary. Yeah, it says in scripture in proverbs that we can sound like fools to the unsaved. So I don't know that you're saved yet, right? Um, so I have to always come in with pure love. And then because I'm always interested in people first, yeah, you know, and building that bridge, and then just start asking questions about that, and then I said, then usually I come come in with like, hey, you know, as we're talking and I'm listening to you, God is showing me. Something is it okay with you that I share with what God showed me? Have you felt that way?

SPEAKER_01 1:28:04

Have you felt that way all the time?

SPEAKER_03 1:28:06

Okay. God'll give me words like that.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:08

So that's um if if you could ever stay on a weekend, I know you said that. Um I don't know what your Saturdays through Sundays normally look like in the mornings, but I would love to introduce you to Miss Jeanette. She's um w my um bonus grandma. She says bonus grandma, she's the same age as my stepmom, so it's kind of funny how that works out. But she has she goes, When whoever we I meet, I can always tell somebody who what they've gone through sometimes. And we've the way that I've connected us my own small group that I lead, it's really cool because a lot of people have been through like devastating experiences and you know all the things. But she has had moments like that, and then um my other friend, um, you know, from episode two, um, she can have a sense of stuff like that. So I get right when I met you, I knew.

SPEAKER_03 1:29:03

And God gives me that and I love it. I have words that God will give me and I'll say, Can I please share it? And then I'll I'll like I'll share it. But uh the the beauty of it is to build them up yeah and bring them to the cross, whichever way God you know leads it.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:19

Because there's only in Jesus are are we going to be able to release some of those pains and heartbreaks and the confusion of what is the I feel attention in my personality or I feel attention of what am I supposed to do with this. Yeah. And only by the grace of God and a like by laying everything at the feet of Jesus are we able to come to the other side and then figure out what to do with our gifts and our quirks and our personality. Yes. Because he redeems them. All the time. It's not and it's not too much. Yes. It's the right amount for God to work on, to work with us, right? And he redeems them and then builds them up even better.

SPEAKER_03 1:30:07

The one thing too I've learned too is when I'm with students or other people, they want to talk about their life. Mm-hmm. And they want to be heard.

unknown 1:30:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:30:15

So that's another thing that the Lord has shown me. And you can let them talk about their life.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:19

And you can practice going back and forth. Yes. I um was so ashamed and I carried a lot of guilt for years because of how terrible of a listener I was. So, episode twelve, here we are. How have I been doing? I think you're amazing. Yeah, and I love this. So that's one thing. If somebody says, Oh, what made you want to do the show? And my husband's we m I I wasn't offended at all. The joke was, um, well, um, she t wanted to talk a lot and no one can tell her not to. She's I don't know what he said exactly, but um, but for me personally, it's also been a lot of going the conversational aspect and learning to bite my tongue. Not in a bad way, but in a you know, respectable, you know, healthy way to learn the balance. Because I think that it no matter how old we are, there's something that we might need to work on balance, you know, in our Christian in our walk with Jesus, right? Yeah. And so that's meant a lot for me. And um as far as let's just say the show's title goes, what if I um I don't know if I told you right away, but I think I did when I messaged you to come on and I said it's all messy amen. What does that make you think?

SPEAKER_03 1:31:38

I absolutely loved it immediately. That was one of the greatest titles I've ever heard. Because it's so true. In a messy amen, because we're a message out of our messy.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:50

So yeah, our our life and our prayers. Yes, because it's we go through the good I say I can um, you know, had a little help coming up with the good, the bad, the holy parts of real life. Yeah. Because what's not happening what's happen between Sundays in a real inner like interpersonal relationships, our messy home life, our whatever is going on, God we want God to meet us there too. Yes. And He wants to. Yes, and He does. What do you want to be feel like the theme of this to discussion? Okay. Because we we've been through we've been through a lot. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:32:30

So can I say something to you real quick? Sure. So the one thing that the Lord wanted me to share with you, as you were saying, like, you know, not being a good listener and all that. What I've also saw in you, it's not that you're not a good listener. You just have so much passion in life. So your passion wants to be coming out. You want to spill it out, and you want to get it out, and you want the excitement just flows. So you didn't you weren't able to filter how to pull it back. So it wasn't that you were a bad listener or not a good listener. You just didn't know how yet how to take it and pull back the passion. That's a gift. You're gifted, you have an anointing. So in anointings and the in gifts, as we mature, we learn that gift, right? Just like when we read the scriptures, in all the scriptures, people are still learning, like David and Paul, all of them, they're still learning in their gift things how to do things the way God is what's signed up to God, right? That's just just just that's just what it is. So in the messy amen, you had to learn that. Yeah. And you're still learning. I'm still learning it almost. We're having fun. And you're having fun.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:38

So embrace that gift. Even when even when we have pain and heartbreak and st stuff that we wouldn't choose ourselves. Yes. I say that I s I try to say that every time, but like we keep praying, we keep, you know, bringing our mess to the cross. And embrace your gift. Yeah. And always been gifted. God can r bring like turn around to a good thing. And it's never been a bad one. And that's my that's my prayer that um people can hear um hear your story, hear all these stories, and and see themselves or see something that, oh, well, if God can use that, if God can sh you know be there for Sunny, if God can um give Michelle hope for a a m fun and you know, exciting future, yeah, then maybe he can give somebody else hope. That's right. So that's right.

SPEAKER_03 1:34:37

That makes you know, think about it. So I think um the uh recap or how we would wind this up in a burrito.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:45

Your takeaway, what you what you hope is a takeaway. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:34:49

My hope is a takeaway is that anyone that's listening to this that you know down deep um how much God loves you. And in that, to really get into the word of God, use this as um like uh a compass or uh north, south, east, and west, which direction to go. Um, it's a love book, it's literally a true love book, okay? Um, it's a love story about the love of the Lord, but also about your identity. You have to learn your identity in Christ. And once you learn that identity, there's so much freedom in that. And every label that has everyone put on your life is not from God. And anything that's spoken to you, if it doesn't line up to what Jesus would say to you, it's a lie. So learn about that too. And you will learn that as you leave read this love story. And again, this is living and active, it's true, it's uh sharper than a double-edged sword. And again, it is the sword of the spirit. So when you know this, you're able to chap down any enemy, uh, take the heads off of a giant. And um, and I just hope that um anybody that again is listening to all of our episodes and especially tonight, that you are you know that you're loved, you're adored, you are precious in his sight, and that you are seen, that you are heard, you matter, and recovery matters. And if you need recovery, go after it. If you need a mentor, go after it. You are worth it. Don't ever stop seeking um uh Jesus and uh seeking what you need. You are worth it. And it's okay to not be okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:23

That yeah, that and that recovery being for all of the things, it's not just addiction, and it can be like the grief or anger or whatever. You know, that's so powerful to have that camaraderie and those people, those believers um working to um, you know, to work on those things and press towards Jesus. Absolutely. So, as always, thank you so much for watching and listening. And you can find a companion devotional over on Substack and find um Link Tree in the show notes and some messy amen merch. This these mugs are to die for, and they're so cute. The blue just happened to work out perfectly. Thanks again for watching. I'll see you next time. All right, cheers.