Redirected, Not Rejected

Part Two with Sunni Henry

Man, when Sunni told me part one didn't even scratch the surface, I believed her, but I was not ready for this one. We pick right back up and go deep, and I mean DEEP.

Sunni walks us through the last ten years of her life, and honestly, I still get chills thinking about it. Seven strokes. An aortic dissection with less than a one percent survival rate, where the helicopter got canceled because of an ice storm and she fought for over nine hours with nothing but the Lord in that ambulance. She died on the operating table and met Jesus. She got to see her son who is in heaven. If that is not a picture of but God, I don't know what is.

But this episode is not just about the miracles in her body, it is about the miracles in her heart. We talk about the abuse she carried from childhood, the words her earthly father spoke over her, and how she didn't even realize she had put God in the same box as her dad until she came face to face with Jesus. We talk about losing friends, being called too much, being called extra, and how Sunni flipped every one of those labels right back around. That is where this title comes from. Sunni said it herself, if someone leaves you, it is not that you are rejected, you are redirected by God. Oh, that's so good.

We also get into discernment as a gift that can be heavy to carry, learning to use your voice instead of shrinking it, and what it actually looks like to collect joy instead of collecting stuff. This one is for anyone who has ever felt like they were too much for a room. You are not too much. You were never trash. You were made on purpose and for a purpose.

Verses mentioned: 

-Isaiah 43 (you are mine, and I am doing a new thing)

 -1 Corinthians 12 (we are all one body with different parts)

-Esther 4:14 

-1 Samuel 17

-John 10 (the Good Shepherd)

-1 Kings 19 (Elijah resting and eating in his exhaustion)

Themes covered: Miraculous healing and survival, childhood abuse and the father wound, separating God from an earthly father's rejection, discernment as a spiritual gift, redirection instead of rejection, being called too much and using your voice anyway, Christian recovery, collecting joy, losing and finding identity outside of motherhood

I'm so glad you're here for this one. If it met you somewhere today, go check out the merch over at amessyamenpod.com, and if you've got a minute, leave a review. It genuinely helps other people find these stories.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Life isn't always Sunday best. Sometimes your faith is put to the test. If you feel unseen and all alone, it's time for stories you've never known. Hello and welcome back to a messy amen. This is a show where we talk about the good, the bad, and the holy parts of real everyday life. This episode is special because this is our first part two. And um to piggyback off of last week um last episode, we have with us again Sonny Henry. Thank you for joining me. Yay, I'm excited. Thank you. So this is just gonna be a piggyback because we um we got into some nitty-gritty stuff and uh you know we took it way back. But now um b before you left my um my house last time, you said we didn't even scratch the surface.

SPEAKER_01 0:53

I have a lot of surface.

SPEAKER_00 0:55

So there's there's more to the story, and I um, you know, if we're gonna just keep um, you know, jump right into some you know last five, ten years, um tell me some themes and things that have been going on.

SPEAKER_01 1:09

So the last five, ten years. So the last ten years has been a uh very deep journey, um, but a lot of journey about miracles, signs, and wonders. Like watching and witnessing and seeing how God has literally allowed my life to be miraculously saved so many times. Um I'm not sure exactly if I did share this, but I don't think I did last time. But um, so I went through a divorce just a little over 10 years ago, and since then um I started having uh seizures and strokes in in that moment of um getting going through the divorce. But then from that point on I experienced homelessness, which was very detrimental to me and very embarrassing in a way because when you go homeless, um there's a lot of talk, there's a lot of opinions, and but nobody asked me why I went homeless. So that's one thing I am learning in my journey is when I hear about people's struggles or what they're going through, I listen and I ask them, you know, questions. I asked them how they're doing. I don't assume, I don't make assumptions in people's lives. And then um I was having some seizures and I was having some strokes. I ended up with a a total of seven strokes. Seven. Oh I've had seven strokes, yes. One of those was a brain aneurysm stroke also and I literally died on the operating table during that one. Um so um about four years into my div after divorce time, post-divorce, I was in Ohio visiting some people, and I fell to the ground abruptly with a scream, and I had the most probably wicked pain you can ever experience in life. And the doctor, one of the doctors that came to visit me when he saw me as a miracle living, he said, What I've heard is what you've experienced is like the impending doom, and it is, and less than one percent survive the attack that I had on my heart. Literally, less than one percent. So it's called an aortic dissection. So I was rushed to um the emergency by ambulance. They ordered a helicopter, they were trying to find a doctor within three states, um close states, connecting states, to do an immediate surgery. They can only find one doctor available, Dr. Fukahara, uh at U of M. But by then I should have already been passed. I survived aortic dissection for over nine hours in the midst of that. The helicopter got canceled. So I'm laying there fighting for my life.

unknown 3:59

What?

SPEAKER_01 4:00

There's nothing they can do. I had to fight for my life with just the Lord. So I had people praying. It would it was between Jesus and me at this time. There's nothing doctors and nurses can do at this time. So it's either I live or die. So I remember, I know this sounds weird, but you can you can hear, smell, taste, experience, death. And I had all of that. And they're like, what do you mean by tasting death? It's hard to explain, but it's very real. So I was literally fighting and knowing that I'm I'm hitting the door of death, and the only way to survive is but God. And um a nurse came and sat by me and started praying for me. Literally. What? And she knew where I was at. And uh so um they had to cancel the helicopter, they put me in an ambulance. Uh I'm in Ohio, took me to U of M, but there was one of the worst snowstorms, ice storms. What? So it took over two hours. So I'm in an ambulance with an aortic dissection. Now get this though. If anyone knows anything about blood pressures, my blood pressure was literally in the 280s. Who survived that? But a miracle from the Lord. I can only have survived because of God. But God again, right? When I got to the hospital, I saw my blood pressure at 289, and they were pumping me and prepping me for emergency surgery. Um, 11 hours later in surgery, I wake up and I don't even remember what day. I think it's like the fifth day in ICU. Fourth or fifth day I was in ICU. And I was still fighting for my life, but I knew that um it was a miracle because my doctor had tears in his eyes, and he was telling my family that was surrounding me and friends, and uh looking at me saying that, and he has an accent because he's from Korea, he's like, I usually have to tell the family that I'm sorry I've lost him or her. But I'm he was standing there looking at me with tears, like and he told me I was a miracle, and so he was explaining to the family. So that's one of my stories within the last 10 years. Wow, and uh yeah, so and the uh the uh God used you to witness to others, yes, yes, and to that doctor. I'm he's still my buddy, like I'm gonna go see him again here soon. Like he he told me um the last time I I was in ICU last month in Texas, which is another miracle story. When I talked to him after that, he goes, I am your doctor, you are my patient. When you go anywhere, you make them call me immediately. I said, I did. He goes, Well, they didn't. I said, I know. He goes, I am your doctor, you are my patient. It was so sweet. He called me personally.

SPEAKER_02 6:48

Aww.

SPEAKER_01 6:49

Because he knows, like he did my second heart surgery three years later because I was ready to pass again. I had a huge aneurysm, and it was a life and death kind of surgery. Um, I had them and they had to put in a mesh. Um, and they had to go.

SPEAKER_00 7:06

Did you have an aneurysm in your heart?

SPEAKER_01 7:08

A big one, yeah. What? And I was surviving that. Yes. So then when they went in, they ended up doing a triple bypass too. They had to go in two different areas in my neck in my groin, and then um there was like three or four other areas they had to go into. And um, so during that surgery I had seizures, another stroke, and a brain aneurysm.

SPEAKER_00 7:33

So when was that one?

SPEAKER_01 7:35

This was four years ago.

unknown 7:37

What?

SPEAKER_01 7:38

Yeah. And then I woke up paralyzed. So I was paralyzed, and my blood pressure was in the 200s, like high 200s. So I was having more seizures and strokes during that time. Um, but the miracle of that story, if anyone believes in this or not, that's okay, because it's true. I when I died this time on the operating table, Jesus met me in a vision. And I got to see Jesus, and I got to see my little son that's in heaven. And he looked just like my other two boys. And um my son spoke to me, uh huh. And Jesus was standing there, and you can't describe you can't describe it. Like when you think about it. Um, my son, he goes, You're the strongest woman I've ever known. You're my mom, and you're gonna make it, you're gonna be okay, and I'm okay, I'm doing well. And he kept talking. He's like, You can do this, mom, and then yeah, I'm gonna cry. It was so amazing. He kept talking to me, and he was so adorable. He looked just like my boys, but he was telling me, like, you're the strongest woman, you're the strongest mom, you know, and telling me that he's doing great and he's doing okay. So that was something that gave me closure in that moment, you know. And that was such a blessing. I'll never forget that. And then to see Jesus, and I'll never forget it. And um, I didn't get to go to heaven, though. And I believe God didn't take me to heaven because he knew I'm so stubborn, I was not gonna leave. So he wouldn't let me go up there. And I didn't have an out-of-body experience, I just had an intimate experience with my son.

SPEAKER_00 9:19

Like you couldn't see, like, you couldn't see people like operating on you or anything like that.

SPEAKER_01 9:24

No.

SPEAKER_00 9:24

Like I've heard sometimes people have had these weird out-of-body experiences where it's like, it feels like you're doing something, but you know, you're not. Yeah. So I have like really weird, like lucid dreams sometimes, where sometimes it feels like in my dream I'm like half there, but I can't function properly.

SPEAKER_02 9:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:43

And then like other times I'm like all the like n can figure out what's going on. Or like I have a dream and no, any time I've had a dream about a f in a cell phone, I can't get it to work. And if for whatever reason, I think there's like f cell phones can't work in dreams. And um, if anybody watching this has wor used a cell phone in your dream pro and it works, like you texted somebody or whatever, tell me in the comments. Because like I've literally never um like there I'm like to whether it's a typo or it's something like or I had a dream where even though I have an iPhone, I've had one of my old dumb phones, you know, and um then it wasn't working right, and then I'm like, where's my iPhone? I know, right? So that like and I peep I only mention dreams because I remember almost all of them, and um a lot of people tell me they don't ever remember their dreams. So um I don't like wouldn't say they're like you know prophetic or super special, but I have had a lot of dreams of my sister, so that um that's been f you know nice. And then I'm like, oh man, I had to wake up from that. But yeah. But so health-wise, you you know that we've been getting into um on the show like a lot of mental health, um, addiction. So Holly um is um going to be marrying my father-in-law, and she had this um same cancer four times, same breast cancer. It's called triple negative.

SPEAKER_01 11:15

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_00 11:16

So we're talking about like strokes and heart stuff, and I for one didn't know there was a such thing as a heart aneurysm.

SPEAKER_01 11:24

Aortic dissection, even.

SPEAKER_00 11:26

So the an heart aneurysm turns into aortic dissection.

SPEAKER_01 11:32

Well, actually Or it can. Aortic dissections. Did you ever hear about a runner that just drops dead? They're in perfect shape, they eat healthy, they're at athletes, I think so. And they just drop. And they say that their heart literally exploded. That's what I happened to me. What? Yeah, like shredded? It shreds. That's why they call it dissection. It dissects, it literally is like a shredding of your heart. So the back of my heart split. Yeah. And it it built a false lumen in the back of my heart. So like a a lumen is like a like a ca um what they call it, like a chasm. So almost like an opening. Not a full opening, but enough to you know, you have to gosh.

SPEAKER_00 12:17

So then had the they sewed it back or they had to put something um in it like artificial.

SPEAKER_01 12:24

The second surgery was um the first one they gave when they they had to saw me open, they had to pull all my organs out of my body, freeze them, and uh drain all the blood out of my body that was spurting all through my blood uh body because I was dissecting for over ten hours. No, over nine hours, probably close to ten. Um that was the one with the snowstorm? That was the snowstorm one, and so they had to freeze my organs.

SPEAKER_00 12:48

So you should have bled out.

SPEAKER_01 12:50

Yeah, should have been bled uh yeah, I should not be here today. There's no way. There is no way I could be here but God. There's no other way. There's none. You cannot survive an aortic dissection that long. It doesn't happen. It's not, it's not even like somebody could be writing a paper about you for the medical job. Yes, yes, it's only a medical miracle. Like, literally, people from all around the world were messaging me um after they heard that I had one. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:22

So um Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_01 13:23

Yeah, and uh it for me to survive that, and then they put an artificial valve on in me, but then the second surgery had to go in and do another valve um repair, put on a full mesh over my heart, and uh do some repairing that way. And so it's been a challenge, and then the paralysis happened and and that was after um four years later.

SPEAKER_00 13:50

Yeah. And yes, they don't know how what caused those.

unknown 13:55

No.

SPEAKER_00 13:56

That's the weird thing about strokes, is because you can get like a idea, oh well, you shouldn't have been living that lifestyle or whatever, but then somebody could be completely healthy and then whatever. Like that's wild.

SPEAKER_01 14:08

They think the the beginning of the strokes were because I went through a lot of abuse. And we haven't been able to get into all that of my story. That's a whole different level. Like that's the iceberg underneath the water. Um, lots of abuse can bring on strokes from the stress. Um, but I was um I had rheumatic fever, scarlet fever when I was a little girl. And I had a heart condition I wasn't even aware of. So when they went in to do open heart, they saw the heart condition.

SPEAKER_00 14:38

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_01 14:38

So that is a part of the reason why too.

SPEAKER_00 14:41

So my god.

SPEAKER_01 14:42

And then when I was told in the hospital that uh I may never walk again or I ne may never talk properly again, I was like every time going, You have no idea who my Jesus is, who my daddy is, and I did not even listen. I was not in the world.

SPEAKER_00 14:59

How long were you couldn't you move? And was it like from the waist down or it was the whole right side.

SPEAKER_01 15:04

Okay, you're the whole right side. And it probably took about oh, about 19 months to have like full, like at least comfortable movement. I still did I still have paralysis. You are not able to see it, but I have a lot of internal paralysis. I still have it on my right side.

SPEAKER_00 15:23

Oh jeez.

SPEAKER_01 15:24

Yes, and then so a lot of the fatigue I struggle with in that is because I still have right side paralysis, that it's more internal though. That's crazy. I know, right? So that's why I was kind of not around with CMA for quite a while, because it was just too much. I couldn't do it.

SPEAKER_00 15:43

Just going through it and then you um if you're um struggling with movement, you can't function on a motorcycle to I like you know, it's a lot of you know balancing and that I just thought of um so my brother-in-law, um uh my husband's um older brother is adopted, but he um my father-in-law took him to a rodeo when he was really little, and um he has um like cerebral palsy, um, something like that. And so he um is really weak in one of his sides, but he does um used to do um the bronch riding. Oh, so he'd get kicked off um, he'd get bucked off the horses and it would always be the one the weak side, his boot would fly off and then he'd you know get knocked off, and because it um it just well the muscles just um weren't there and so a lot of that, you know, staying with you it can be seems like it'd be a challenge.

SPEAKER_01 16:45

Yeah. I uh one of my uh my new roommate has cerebral palsy, so I see what how much he struggles, and it's just I don't know how to react to it sometimes because he's a you know, he's an older guy and like you know, not older than me. I'm almost 20 years older, but just being an older guy and being a man, it's like it's just hard for me to see that on him, but yeah, so I understand that.

SPEAKER_00 17:08

And so like we talked a lot about some of the volunteer work um you've done, but um even more than that, can we let's dive into some of the other personal um personal stuff like you might struggle with that's you know, besides you know what led you into recovery and you know, some um some of those things.

SPEAKER_01 17:28

So I would love that. Um so I am now a recovery coach in three states. Um and so I just volunteer though. I'm I'm praying about taking that further. And I love recovery and I know that it's helped save my life in so many ways. And um I pray that more churches will allow more recovery, Christian recovery. Um, it's needed.

SPEAKER_02 17:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:53

And uh so my recovery journey started um when I uh heard about it. Um losing a son really hurt me really bad. And being alone in that. I was on a military base and just very alone going through that. Um, and I call him my has been or was been. He just wasn't involved in any of that emotional part of it. So I was kind of left alone in that. And then his family, they were just kind of like, whatever. And then my family was like, whatever. So there wasn't a lot of compassion on either side or comforting at all. And um it hurt really bad. So um I just gotta be careful because these people are still alive. But what I'd want to say, I can't say on the show, but anyway. A little too messy. A little too messy, a little messy, amen. But um it was hard. So that's when I knew I better go to recovery where I can be around people that have some similar stories, and that that that'll be my support where I can talk about it and be free in it. So I started about 15 years ago, and um just uh going to uh trainings and being real involved and and getting into scripture and um I also needed recovery for uh dealing with abuse. I had a lot a lot of forms of abuse since I was a little girl. Started around, I I think it started in the womb, uh, to be honest with you, just from rejection and abandonment on emotional, also mental, but uh I had a family member by four years old. I was being very abused in ways a little girl should never be. And that that that just led up to like I was sharing earlier, like by five years old, I'm smoking and shoplifting, and by like junior high, I'm I'm doing drugs and yeah, you know, all that stuff, right? So that led up into my life of um dealing with like I never dealt with any of that. I never dealt with the abuse, I never dealt with what was going on. So that was just piling up in my in my life and bringing on anger and bitterness and hate. Um, I don't hate people, but just hate about things in life. Oh, the the angst can be real.

SPEAKER_00 20:08

Even even if you don't feel like you're angry at anybody, you're angry at the world. Yeah, like yeah. You're like I'm so mad, but I don't know what to do with that. You don't. Yeah, so what um talk to me more about as far as the emotions go, and then you're said, Oh, I didn't know how to deal with that, or I didn't deal with that. Yeah. Then so what does that look like between you and God and prayer life? And then you are such a you know, beautiful soul with like a sensitivity to things. So how does that um play out when you're you know not hadn't dealt with things?

SPEAKER_01 20:41

So what happens is um it took me a long time to um to train myself on how not to react to my emotions because um emotions can really take you down the wrong road real quick. So I had learned um to start recognizing even the gut feelings, the heated feelings in my body, um, when my body was starting to change its chemistry and the feeling that I had to just a lot of times I'd fall flat on my face. I remember I'd go up to my bedroom and I would just fall flat on my face and cry out to the Lord. And then I'd play scripture and worship music. And pretty much for years I have learned to always have Christian music playing, scripture playing, and getting in the word and doing a lot of praying, yeah, and then finding a strong mentor that you know that's stronger than me.

SPEAKER_02 21:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:37

So a mentor is very, very wise and make sure they're stronger than you in the Lord, not in a comparing way, but stronger with wisdom and discernment and years of you know, been to the rodeo and back for years. Um, so I made sure I did that, and um, and then uh I had to do a lot of like reflecting and journaling. I had to pull out. A journal pad and write it all out, even if it was anger, cuss words, want to punch them in the face. I hate that person right now. I want to beat the crap out of them. I'm being real with you. I had to write it all out on journals. It doesn't surprise God. Yeah. Right. God knows, right? Yeah. And um so I wrote it all out on journals. And I'd just say like, oh, and I'm mad, and I'm even mad right now that you allowed this, God, and I'd be even mad at him, like, why would you allow this? You're supposed to be my daddy, my Abba father, and my my real daddy allowed it. Not realizing that he it's not that he allowed it because he wanted me to be hurt. He was sure I'm sure he was telling that abuser or that person to stop, and they weren't listening. Yeah. So I had to learn that too. Um so God just starts speaking to me like, I have you. I was with you. If I wasn't with you, you'd be dead. Or you would have punched that person, you'd be in prison, or you would have drank that whole bottle of, you know, whiskey or whatever, and you'd be dead. Or there was always that that he was feeding into me. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:04

It's there I just watched a YouTube video um of Faith Womack, and she was saying that she spent years doing prayers of very surface level stuff in her journal because she was afraid to be like honest with God. And to let like, but when we lay it all out, like that's really, you know, not only surrender, but you know, to to know that God already knows anyway, yeah. And that He can um He can work with us best when we're honest and open to you know and then getting it off our chest too. It's like if we you know journaling is one of my favorite things as you know, sometimes that looks a little m scrapbooky and sometimes it looks just like, you know, word vomit. But God knows, and then that is a cathartic thing for us to, you know, to just like blah.

SPEAKER_01 23:58

Let it barf out. Yeah. You know, vomit it out.

SPEAKER_00 24:02

And and that's okay because um we're having those feelings, and the Bible doesn't say to never be angry, it says to be angry and do not sin.

SPEAKER_01 24:12

There you go. Because if we don't barf it out, it's gonna go on someone else.

SPEAKER_00 24:16

It's fester and you know, we can get mad at the wrong person. Yeah. Oh um, but so what does that look like? You said you always want to play mu um worship music in scriptures. Like do you um like have good um you have pretty good rhythms for that then?

SPEAKER_01 24:32

You mean like good beat or a good like ha ha ha, you know? Yes, tell me what you're listening to. I am from the D, you know. So I got some good beat and rhythm.

SPEAKER_00 24:39

But like you just wake up and you instantly you're just in the yeah, the um we got a good rhythm of being in the word.

SPEAKER_01 24:47

Soon as I wake up, my first thought is always something about Jesus. Always something about, okay, Lord, here I am. Send me. What do you have for me? Who am I gonna talk to today? Who can I smile to, hug, serve, compliment? Whatever you have for me, let me be aware of it, let me see it, let me hear it. If someone is in need, because I know what it's like in my life to need that and want that, because there were so many years where I felt so abandoned and like an orphan, and I carried this orphan spirit for years, you know, until I really learned that no, I'm adopted by God. So I want other people to be seen and heard and know that they're valued. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:27

You see? Do you remember when you felt like that um feeling of God adopt like adopting you and being your like heavenly father? Like can you um was that cause that was that later on as you were healing more and more of that trauma?

SPEAKER_01 25:43

Yes, I I will tell you probably the epiphany was when I died on the operating table and I came back to life and I got to see Jesus and I knew that no, I am his daughter. I am with the King and Kings and Lord of Lords, and that there is something for me.

SPEAKER_00 26:01

So that is just so beautiful, and even in such a like insane moment of, you know, how many times did we c all go through almost dying? Like the hell stuff is real, like that's our phys um our physical bodies, you know, we can say um, you know, we are mind, body, spirit, you know, that's you know, and then God meets us in all of that.

SPEAKER_03 26:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:28

So we ask God to, you know, give us the strength and the energy for today in our bodies, and then in our patience, in our mind, and then to, you know, to protect our spirit.

SPEAKER_02 26:40

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 26:40

And so y and then you are, you know, hi my dad makes a joke about highly sensitive person. Like he I a lot of times I think he just thought I was like gonna cry all the time, or you're just, you know, you're sensitive. I'm like, Yeah, well, get fine, tell me something I don't know. But when we are and you're sensitive and sensitive in the Holy Spirit, that is so special. But w when you had some unresolved trauma, then that w made it hard to work through, and you're just like, you don't know what's going on, or you're not like this, that, and the other thing. Can you give me another example of something that you carried for a really long time that God met you in and um restored in your heart?

SPEAKER_01 27:25

Absolutely. There's actually several. Um, even through the journey of my health, through the journey from the divorce and through my health, um, and then losing my my identity overall at the church and my community. Um, and then over time hearing so many different things that were spoken about my divorce, my health, um, the assumptions I am very highly sensitive too. I'm a very highly sensitive person, but I'm also a natural protector. So for me, I don't understand why would people say things? Why would they even talk? Why don't they ask me? So I didn't understand that because I'm not like that. Yeah. So um uh being a protector.

SPEAKER_00 28:13

You want to be real and honest, and you don't and the thing about like gossip and um and that just that whole mentality is that people aren't being genuine. Yeah. And so that's one one reason they're not asking is because they either they're not actually don't actually want to know, they're just being nasty, and then who who knows, right? But they're they're not having that, you know, kind and actual thoughtful curiosity and sensitivity to be like, are you how are you doing, right?

SPEAKER_01 28:47

Yeah, yeah. So the Lord carried me through. This is a gift that God gave me. Some people said I used it to cover up my life, which is such a lie. Because I've always been a very joyful, highly strung, full of life, free spirit. Yeah, and I still am at almost 60 years old. And I remember even standing in church one day, and this lady goes, I think you use that to hide what's really under the service. I said, Well, you're thinking wrong. And I just walked away. Because people when someone's different, everyone's different. But if someone is different with the high energy that I have, the high joy that God has given me, and uh persevere because of Christ, all of this is because of Christ. No matter what I have faced, no matter what I have been through, from being homeless to dying to being paralyzed to not being able to talk like a like my voice was like a like a cartoon character for a long time. And I would get made fun of and teased even in public um after being paralyzed. I didn't let it stop me. I persevered and I kept depending on my Lord and going into the strength. The joy of the Lord is my strength, right? So I think over time that also caused people to question and be intimidated.

unknown 30:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:07

So they would make up their own narratives, right? So God had to carry me through a lot of um, I lost a lot of friends, but then I realized they weren't real friends. So if they're gone, it's God's way of rescuing me and removing them. Yeah, and that's one thing I want to tell people. If someone leaves you, it's not that you're rejected, you're redirected by God. Well, yes, say that again. So it's not a rejection, it's a redirection. Yeah, it's God removing them because He can see what you can't see. Because not everybody was really your friend, right? And um I I remember I was really involved in a place, it's a Bible study place, and the rumor went around that I was faking everything about my strokes and my seizures, and I was making up so I was very, very detrimentally hurt. Um, it happened in my community. I had one person um telling people that I stole a vehicle, I had another person saying that I was sleeping around with pastors. I can go on and on and around about the stuff that would go circulate when I was going through divorce and all this health stuff. And I was like, wow, this is going on. But you know what I did? I was like, wait a minute, I know the truth, and so does Jesus. But I always carried on. I always carried on by serving the homeless, by serving the other people in the prison, by teaching recovery, by reaching out and saying, nope. I know what they're going through, not fully, but uh have an understanding because of what I'm going through. So if I can take what I'm going through and turn it over, like we talked about earlier, flipping the script, yeah, and bringing it to other people, that's what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna serve the Lord every day and take what people throw at me, the darts, throw them at the pit of hell after I pluck them out, you know, pluck those darts out. Say that's not my problem. And you know what? I don't need them. So I'd ask the Lord, please let me have discernment and wisdom of my environment. Please do not let me cast my pearls upon swine. And if anybody does not belong in my life, remove them. And sometimes that hurts. So the Lord. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:35

That like that's amazing to um just to understand and then to be able to rise above um the frustrations of just not only being different, but being confident in being different, and then watching how God um uses you to even then bring like do you feel like now you've brought on people of com um it almost se sounds like it's made room for the people that matter the most? Yeah. And they are free to be them with me.

SPEAKER_01 33:05

And one thing I remember I had someone tell me, you're just like too much to one person. And I said, I don't think I'm too much, maybe you're too basic. And I'm like, was that Christian? Was that wrong? And then I thought, no, that was flipping a table.

SPEAKER_00 33:22

No, because while some things need to be inside thoughts. Yes. Like what I think that sounds totally appropriate for something that just doesn't see like that's you could it's almost like you like parenting somebody in a way, be like, some things could have been an inside thought, or that's a really weird thing to say out loud.

SPEAKER_01 33:41

Yeah. So I just said, Well, maybe you're too basic. I'm not too much. Or when I hear you're extra, and I'm like, Yep, I have a whole lot of extra Jesus around me. So I'm okay with that. You know, my mic drop just for unscrew the bad boy. Or I remember one time someone saying, You're kind of like a puppet Christian. I said, Yeah, and if you want to think that that's Jesus in the hand of the puppet, and I'm okay with that. He's guiding me, and he's got whatever string he's got on me, I'm okay with it. You know, when people come at me, I always know what God's gonna download in my brain because you know, they don't I'm not a victim, but people like to say things when they uh they are trying to like figure out their own insecurities or um so something you brought up earlier, you said about um a writer. There's something that also God had to carry me through. There was a narrative in my life that was so um kind of twisted for a long time because of all the abuse and everything I'd been through, plus my upbringing with the Muslim background and then the Jehovah's Witness background. Um I had not realized that I had separated God from Jesus for a long time. So Jesus was my buddy Opel, best friend, he's like my you know, everything, right? Not realizing that I was afraid of God, but not Jesus. Even though they're the same. Yeah. And I had a lot of fear. Like you were talking about your friend only surface journaling because she didn't know how to go deep.

SPEAKER_00 35:15

Uh YouTuber. Yeah. Faithful Mac.

SPEAKER_01 35:18

Yeah. So that I understand that.

SPEAKER_00 35:21

Because I could not go deep with God. Because it's like that's not holy, or that's just silly boy stuff if she was like in high school or something. And you know, if we but when we open up, that's you gotta let God into the situation too. Because I'm having a really time of it trying to explain to um my daughter, Lydia, um, four and a half years old, um that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, three and one. There's a fun song, and it's anti-math because it says one plus one plus one equals one, because it's talking about God being a triune God.

unknown 35:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:59

So I told her, I'm like, only it when you're talking about God. Is that c accurate? Yes. So one plus one plus one equals one, because God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

SPEAKER_01 36:09

Yeah, I love that. That's adorable.

SPEAKER_00 36:12

So, but it's tricky for her, but you know, how tell me how that was playing out for you.

SPEAKER_01 36:17

So, yeah, even though I knew the Trinity, the trion, or try they call it triune, trion. Um, triune. Um, I literally did not realize like, why am I so afraid of God? Why was I so afraid to get on my knees and talk to God or journal to God? And I was so afraid of him. But I could talk to Jesus, I can get on my knees and hallelujah, amen, and and uh be in worship for Jesus. And then I realized what was going on. I have not fully healed from my relationship for my earthly father. So I put the two, I didn't realize I was keeping God in the same um what would say box maybe as my earthly father. Because my earthly father always, you're a piece of trash, you're weird, you're no good, you know. That's what I heard my whole life. Like my dad's last words to me was, you know, to me you're like a piece of trash. So if you see a dumpster, just walk into it. That's what my dad would say to me. And so I thought, well, maybe God thinks of me that way, right? And um so his idea of me was trash. So then I had this idea, like, I didn't know it though fully. Okay, God must think I'm trash. And then my whole life I would hear like, you would not believe the stuff my father would say to me. And my mother. My mother was a lot worse. Um so for years I carried this spirit of rejection on me. So the enemy got in there to block me from going into my Abba Father, my heavenly father, knowing that I am so loved by him. And once I had the epiphany, like, no, no, he's not my father on earth, nothing like that. And that there is the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit together, that he loves me like a papa, right? And I had a religious pastor, not knowing he was a religious pastor, tell me, you can't say papa. That's sacrilegious. You can't say Abba Papa. I'm like, so I learned a lot of religion before I learned more about relationship by digging into the word and praying.

SPEAKER_00 38:31

There's and I think there's a place for both, because there's the re there is a fear, um, the holy fear of God, that we're it's not like he's not a joke, he's real and active and you know, living God. But then as a relationship, the veil has been torn that we can enter into the presence, like the holy presence, and that there's no there's no priests, there's no um there's no rules and regulations, that we're free to be ourselves, and that God meets us in that. Meets us right where we're at.

SPEAKER_01 39:07

Like in every detail. Even the little ones that we're not even aware of. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:12

He will open them up. Even something that sounds silly, people can get ridiculed online because they um if they want to tell like a story like, um, oh, I asked God for this and he showed it to me, that could say, Well, you were just testing him. You were not w the Bible says don't test God. Like, no, it's not a test. You can ask, it's like a relationship and that God can love us, like almost like because he can um, you know, we say that we're the bride of Christ, that it can be a real like love story and a back and forth relationship. That's not just a oh check things off your list and read the scriptures and um like but the Holy Spirit being in this that we can read the word to learn more about God, and then we can be in prayer to learn more about God.

SPEAKER_02 40:04

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 40:05

And that, you know, it's not just him learning about us, because he already knows, but that we can somebody on um I think it was uh it was in the comments of a TikTok, and somebody said, Well, I asked God what his favorite color was, and he said it was turquoise. So I'm not sure if um but if um that likes that's what somebody said. Yeah and I'm like, well, turquoise is a good color, it's on it's on your t-shirt for my for my branding if you want to, you know.

SPEAKER_01 40:32

I love my t-shirt.

SPEAKER_00 40:33

Oh, yes, uh one of one of um one of our t-shirts on a messy amenpod.com. And we're not alone here. And I had to get the squiggle so it didn't look like a blunt um you know, squared off logo, and but it feels like it's orch but um tur turquoise scene like but all to the fact that we can talk to God and we can ask him about us instead of just talking the whole time. But I want because my deepest desire is to hear more from God, and I've had a few moments where he gives me like analogies or something special that somebody said was a good, you know, a good word almost, but like, or that just felt more like you know, inspired, right? Yeah. Um, if I'm alive, yeah, it was inspired. Yeah. No.

SPEAKER_01 41:24

You are adorable.

SPEAKER_00 41:26

Jared's gonna see if he's gonna how much of that he's gonna edit out.

SPEAKER_01 41:30

I don't know. I kinda like that. I love your adorable realness. Don't ever change it.

SPEAKER_00 41:37

I'm just um genuine. But to have the religious spirits and then um to be getting over some of these things, was there any other one thing that you would say that was a specific thing that I was I released to God and um and he restored me from? Or would you say the rejection, you know, abandonment, um the father thing is so um ironic and on point for the show. We've had t, you know, at least two episodes, you know, at the two plus episodes that, you know, talk about um the our earthly fathers and then as, you know, when they are, you know, a whole lot of words we're not going to say. But then to have that miss transferred on and projected onto God gets us in trouble. And so then you you've finally realized that um to not do that. But was there another any other examples? I would say I think a lot of things too was where did he give you a word that made made you feel like he um a verse or a word that he was with you and that you were not abandoned?

SPEAKER_01 42:51

Yeah, that's what I was reading in Isaiah today. Yeah, you know, that he says, You are mine. It says in Isaiah 43, you are mine, you know, and I was reading that again when I got here because I was dealing with um another issue with a relationship issue, and I'm like, no, I am his. Yeah, because sometimes people try to define you what their narrative is about you, right? And I'm learning, no, their narrative has nothing to do with how God created me. So God is showing me now. Don't worry about their narratives, don't worry about what they're thinking.

SPEAKER_00 43:25

People can be projecting all kinds of things and then they might be learning how to be a friend or um what to say, and they have their own like idiosyncrasies of themselves, but we have to know our hearts, and then that God can, you know, as we grow and mature in Christ, to have a certain peace about it, right?

SPEAKER_01 43:46

Yeah, I think one thing too it's a gift, but it can also be a very hard gift to have. I have a very strong gift of discernment, very heavy gift, but I also have um a strong

SPEAKER_00 44:00

gift with I hear every word spoken and when I hear words spoken I take words seriously does that make sense so um when I hear even words that are negative towards me it took me a long time to learn that okay that was unkind Jesus would not have said that to me my reaction used to be you jerk like I'm gonna punch in the face or you nah nah nah nah nah you know I didn't cuss but I said a bunch of stuff like you knucklehead or you know you you uncircumcised Palestinians oh I like that one I even said the other day under my breath about someone like you brood of vipers like I thought about that that was the insult in um in the David story uh around uh Goliath was you uncircumcised Palestine or whatever no or not Palestine what Palestinian or it might not even be that but there's like a bunch of fun I saw a video there's a bunch of funny ones for like biblical ones. Yeah but like healing and growing from those things. Yeah I was like you brota vipers because I could see this group of people that for I don't even know how long that they just Philistine the Philistine we're gonna we're gonna keep that because don't edit that's that's my aha moment the uncircumcised phil um yeah Philistines Philistines they were the ones that they were talking about because that was the group of people and then Goliath came from you know Yes Yes you Nephilim Yeah so you're going deep in the OT I'm telling you I can go right deep the half angel half people or whatever they I'm telling you I can do all kinds of stuff with the word of God in a fun way because I like when people try to twist the word of God I'm like oh don't you go there with me because I will be like right on it you know but I used to like I used to be like a reactant person. I still do struggle with that a little bit yeah um even at I'll be 60 next month and I'm like man I should be more mature in that and I'm not always mature in my reactant um ways because people can be really mean right and um so I'm getting better at that um so yeah I'm I am working on that yeah and um what would you say because you said you said it not me that you're gonna turn um turn 60 I'm turning 31 I know our birthday girl this week and happy birthday if I could sing I would so this will be airing um the week a um after my birthday so yes n yeah next this will be airing next week but what would you say um that you would want to like instill in me like whether it was like either something you've noticed in the past to be like oh I'm glad that you don't do that anymore or something that you've noticed you know from when we record the couple days we spent together when we recorded part one of this um you know as far as your sensitivity and discernment and you know let's flip the script.

SPEAKER_01 47:19

Oh I love flipping the script.

SPEAKER_00 47:21

So yeah this is your your turn to be the host.

SPEAKER_01 47:24

Oh yay I love it. Um yeah I just absolutely love you. I remember meeting you I think you were 12 or 13. We don't remember the exact age do we but I remember and we hit it off I was I would say like a peanut butter and jelly sandwich because you were young. We just put those two pieces together and that's what it was right and I remember right away I recognize a lot of what the characters that you have is what I carried at your age and still do. So looking at me you might have a little bit of what I am in your future so you might want to pray about that.

SPEAKER_00 47:58

You even said something earlier and I'm like me too and I know I can't remember what the fun the very particular example was but um yes.

SPEAKER_01 48:07

Yeah right um we even did that a little bit before um because we met at the Christian motorcycle association uh group uh gatherings um I think one thing that um that uh I oh first of all when I was on the way up here I was like because someone had asked me what how you came up with the messy amen or messy amen and I said I don't know but I absolutely love it and I said I'm gonna ask her so what what um inspired you to come up with that because I absolutely love that name or title. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 48:41

Yes so as we were saying earlier things that were spoken over you a lot of it is the same for me like an ungodly amount of times I heard oh um you talk too much or even in class the teachers would say oh you talk too much right and then I um it might be like oh you need to pay attention or this or that or the other thing or getting embarrassed and driving home from somewhere like oh my goodness I talk so much and I don't know the first thing about somebody because I was talking about myself the whole time. How embarrassing that was my I felt so much shame in that and I was like and it was true because I was it was like tra it was like just trauma vomiting and just like oh my gosh I ha and a lot of it is a little bit a lot of it a little bit it stems from just I have to get it all out right now because somebody's listening and if and if they're listening then I have to make sure I don't lose their attention. Yeah. Yeah I don't I can't pinpoint the exact reason that I felt that but it's like if I got somebody's attention then I had to keep it as long as possible because they were making me feel like seen or important.

unknown 50:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:02

So the show has really t um you know been birthed by the idea of telling people stories. It's not it's not just about me and got like so there was a point I used to um be adamant I I was gonna write like a memoir and it was going to be called From Darkness to daffodils. Just because of the alliteration I not that I daffodils aren't my favorite or anything but it was just there and there was a photo I have saved somewhere of a friend and I messaged her and I said if I ever write a book can I use this as the front cover and she's bending over picking daffodils and she was like blondish like um a little bit you know a little lighter color hair than me but I just thought it was so perfect. And I I was gonna get into um some stories and then how God can um use things to you know redeem and restore you know broken stories. But the more I you know thought about it and I was like oh well what if I drafted this and it was this chapter and that one he I just kind of felt a little nudge where it's like what if Michelle it's not about telling your story but it's about telling other stories to continue to amplify and um let people know that we're not alone and that we can um share even so a lot of times on Sundays we get to church might sometimes maybe a little rushed we get to our spot service begins we sing we hear a message there might be an altar call or communion or however that looks then we chit chat for a few minutes and then everyone scatters right whether it's lunch plans or you know screaming toddlers need to go take a nap there like there's a million different reasons people are might be in a hurry. A lot of times people have to go take an afternoon nap. It like guilty it doesn't you know which is great but if we're not in a small group or we're not you know taking friends from church out to lunch with us to have deeper conversations then when are we having them?

SPEAKER_03 52:16

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 52:17

Or like for me personally I could you know say the wrong thing or feel like I overshared or something and that oh no what what is somebody else struggling with? Because am I the only one that feels like a a hot mess express or like I don't have it all together or this is or my house is a disaster or I I I have too much clutter. Like there was a um a group in the past where there was um it was a bunch of young um young wives with children or just y um young wives and then somebody that was supposed to be a loving mentor um to everybody leading a Bible store um study and there was um a discussion about finances and she basically had said everybody is either a spender or a saver in your like as far as a husband and a wife situation. And so I raised my hand sheepishly and I said what if you guys are both spenders and that you just have different bad habits of spending yeah so I love it. I like to buy um a lot of little things so I love it. You are so you mean you are so much alike and that's not the that's not the whole like there's more I love it. So like I am a um and you know we can even get into um so this Bible I this is a journal cover but I smushed in um a Bible that has my oh sorry if I can get these um bookmarks out. Anyway I'll share real I love it. So this has my name on it um I got a little notebook tucked in the back of there. And then for my early birthday gift I got a new Bible that has special um absolutely beautiful special paintings on each one. And then my OG journaling Bible so like I you know I feel like I I have some of these you know quirks and things and I f would feel ostracized. Like oh I got I got clutter and bad ha no so here I and then here I am going on a rabbit um rabbit trail. But when so so that moment of oh but me and my husband both like have you know these bad habits and what if there's not a spender or save saver and we both are you know we just have to figure out how to reel reel each other in on the different um things you know I need all these pens and highlighters right this is this makes me happy but um I felt so alone and there I didn't re I felt like no one was real I couldn't relate. If I was there I would have I would have sat right next to you. Be like yeah we're just you know spending money no God called us to be good stewards of our money but so that what really um made me sad. And so now the last three and a half years um yeah three and a half going on four years I have been plugged into an awesome charismatic spirit filled church however you want to say it of people that make me feel important make me feel seen and I don't feel alone but I also feel like there's not enough time on a Sunday morning to talk and dig deeper. Yes. And when I used to feel the shame of not you know getting to know people and talking the talking too much talking too much right um and then not being a good listener I finally decided that I was going to turn that around and learn how to bite my tongue and listen and learn and you know glean from you know people that have different perspectives in the Lord and different life experiences um and testimonies and you know the struggles the hurts the you know the celebrate recovery says the hurts the hangups and the and the habits. So when we learn about other Christians yeah it's so beautiful that God has for one saved so many of my friends from this life and death situation that's like blows my mind but two everyone has been so unique and just a light to to hear these stories and then different gifts and talents that's right and jo and then you know whether they are introverted and say um 500 times or a professional motivational speaker. Yeah so that like my heart is that people can um turn on an episode meet sunny meet uh meet all of these guests and to know oh that's I can relate to someone for real yeah I don't want people to think that Christianity only looks like one thing. Yes that's so good. Our relationships are you know varied and special and personable and unique to us because God made us you know to unique and special the way we are.

SPEAKER_01 57:37

Yeah and I love it. I I the thing I love Michelle is that I I share this in the prison a lot too is that I like you're a superhero right you're a superhero and I've told the prisoners like they are superheroes in their own way and then sometimes look at me I go I know you sitting in this prison you might not think that but you are you are still created by God uniquely wonderfully and you uniquely made there's not another one of you there never will be so you are a superhero in God's eyes right so yeah we are uniquely made there's no blueprint because each one of us are one of a kind yes yes I love that so like you're talking about your church right it took me years um and I still kind of like I don't know if you've ever felt this way being like unique and like we're all unique in our own ways but there's some people that are like what would they would call when we get called extra or too much okay well I take that as a compliment now. Yeah that means we're just too much what unique okay we'll take that too proud to be myself yeah like because we were created for that purpose Michelle if you did not have the qualities stand out for Christ. Yeah I was gonna already say that you were created for such a time as this right that's what Esther says you were created for a special moment like right now you're doing these podcasts right you're not too much you don't even talk too much right God just wants you to learn how to take all the beauty that you have within you and all that passion and so much that you want to say and just kind of refine it in a way okay not that you're ever too much and you can talk just as much but in a way where that starts your healing.

SPEAKER_00 59:33

So you bringing me on here or other people on here do you find yourself um having more healing within yourself by um hearing other people's stories because now you get to enhance your story and get to know more about you by hearing myself and other people right I know that that helps me when I'm out teaching recovery or I'm out um at the even at the homeless shelter or when I'm out last week I was out on the streets um ministering and I see such beauty in you and I run I was just wondering is there more healing within yourself as you are doing these and getting to know more people on a deep let's just say that this has been a journey because um I went from having you know few to none friends you know middle school high school early young adult years and just completely you know floundering right and knowing that like and I bounced back living between my mom and my dad because there was pros and cons to living with each of them. You know mom and stepdad dad and stepmom you know I'm very loved and I um you know that there was blessings um in disguise with the divorced parents but um let's just say yesterday at um church my um Tony Lee um our pastor's wife and one of my close friends she made me ugly cry um as I walked away from her telling me this but she said I just want you to know that um I appreciate you being such a good friend to people. Yes and I like I immediately like and she she would have said more but I you know maybe you'll someday I'll hear the behind the scenes thoughts that she was thinking but I just you know took that and I went up um they were having a luncheon so I you know um went back up the stairs to the um hall church hallway and then her husband our senior pastor was at the top of the stairs and I'm just like losing it and I was like your wife just made me cry and I like she said I was a good friend and he's like well you are and I was just like and I like blub a blubbering mess and so as like this has been so special to learn about people which is something that I used to feel so like ashamed about so that's one thing that I feel like God has used to um redeem in my life yeah because I was so so exhaustive like I was overcompensating a lot for you know you said oh you're pu somebody told you you were covering up with a joy I didn't know what else to do because on the inside I was like really depressed and I didn't know what to do. I was too chicken to do anything drastic you know you know like that sort of thing. Right. But I also didn't know what to do and say and how to be a friend because like now I feel like there's mentors and people that are you know loving me into those things not shaming me to tell to criticize me or to make me feel like I was a problem. So I've been recording uh we'll just say April May um halfway into June so two and a half months and you know publishing faithfully every week even we've and we've had a lot of you know technical difficulties.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:17

The enemy does not want people's testimonies to be shared the enemy does not want these you know biblical truths to be shared and all these things so well I one thing that I always loved about you since I've known you but I can see just being real with you um just because God gives me discernment and I'm very observant about people but my heart goes out to that is I can see sometimes that you would be almost caged in to use your voice but I knew that you wanted to because I could see it in your expression but I can tell that it wasn't able to come out when you were a lot younger and uh but now God is now giving that gift that he gave you because use your voice. You have a gift with voice. But the thing that I love even more that I've seen God doing in you is like you've always been the real you but now you're being more confident in who you were created to be. And I hope that the rest of your life you know that anything that would be spoken about like you talk too much. No you do not you be the real you you use that real voice because you are gifted and you're supposed to be doing what you're doing now and your expressions are so fun and you're just absolutely beautiful. And being the real you like when your um pastor's wife said that you're a good friend you're a great friend but you're also great fun and you're great to be around and I love just who you are the genuine you and that's something that you I just pray that you hone in on the rest of your life knowing that that's what you're supposed to be and being able to use your voice boldly and I know you do it in a godlike way Christlike way right but when we are bold to stand up for who we are in Christ in the and in our identity. And it took me like you're 31 this coming okay I'm gonna be 60. I did not learn that until my 50s right I've always been bold and I still struggle when I get face to face one on one with a man like one of my pastors or a men I start crying I still cannot have those conversations with a man. A tough conversation I can't do it. I'm just being real with you I cannot do it.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:41

If it makes you feel any better same okay I don't yeah I um for whatever reason if somebody has like whether it might be like a strong presence or like um they're feeling like irritated or angry I like will Automat like I'll clam up and feel like they're mad at me or there's a like a shame or I oh no, they're like oh like even if they're like really nice if they're just like upset about something completely different, then I was like, uh that's what I was gonna ask you.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:17

That's why I was like bringing those like when I get in front of them, I'm a natural protector, so I don't want to hurt anybody, but I really want to tell them what's really going on. But because they're my authority and they're a pastor, right? Well, how much am I allowed to say? Because you said earlier, am I gonna say the wrong thing? Am I talking too much? I still deal with that at my age because I talk deep, I go into the core things, and some people can't handle that, even pastors.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:46

You can't handle that. And so I just start crying truth, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:48

Yeah. So do you you do struggle with that then too? Oh yeah. Okay, I was wondering. Because being a free spirit too, we care deeply. And we sense the environments, we sense the feelings, we sense the emotions, we sense with a a rejection and abandonment, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:06

You're a f you don't know if you want to s you should say something to even a friend that like even if you're supposed to know them like front and back, inside and out, yeah, that if they're gonna get mad and it ruined and then you're gonna ruin everything. Exactly. So yeah. So I feel that too. Like you know, you know, it could just be like something stupid, and then you're like, oh no, I should I say that or not?

SPEAKER_01 1:07:28

Or so I was wondering too, you got this new Bible and it's absolutely beautiful.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:32

Oh yes. And you're uh like the collection going.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:36

I'd love it. I'd love it. I even even this one that you had in the case. Yeah, that's that's newer too. I'd love it.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:41

The tabs for the And then look at that. Look at how she does. That's um, you know, prayer Bible with our small group to, you know, tab different things to look up and to have like on hand. So I will do that eventually with this one. But this is um the addition from what's her uh I believe Beautiful. Ruth um yeah, Ruth um Cho Simmons, and she has um different um ver she has a lot of little verses on each pay um different pages, and then each um first page of the bo um oh and ones in the middle too with that says um gracious words I like honeycomb, sweetness to the soul, and health to the body. So every um random ones and then every beginning of the each book, there's a really special um Song of Solomon, spicy. Spicy but yeah, I have a few Bibles.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:41

So I was thinking like um earlier I was reading in Isaiah, forget about the former things for I'm doing a new thing. Can you can you perceive it? And then I was even thinking of like even in this moment how we flip the script, has that verse ever spoke to you like, how do I forget the former things? So I and I see that you're doing a new thing, and I know for me there's sometimes I perceive it, but do I believe it? Can I receive it in my broken pieces? And is there ever a time that when you see that verse, you're like, okay, forget about the former things. What are you thinking about that?

SPEAKER_00 1:09:18

The funny thing is, so I I have heard that before because Isaiah 43, yeah. So the funny thing I just heard that for the first time, like a year or two ago, um, back when I I was in Cairo, I lived in Cairo, Michigan, in the thumb for nine months, but we were still um we are still coming to church here um here in Saginaw, and I um went to but I plugged into a few like mom groups and stuff like that. And so there was a mom group and we um went over um somebody recycled um some uh from Bayshore camp, the family camp. They were recycling some of the mu material that was from family camp that year. Oh, I love it. And so the verse when it says um Remember not the former things, nor consider the things of old. Behold, I am doing a new thing. Now it springs forth, do not perceive it. I'll make a way in the wilderness and rivers in the desert, the wild beasts will honor me, the jackals yada yada. And the owls and the yeah. Um the symbolism and the everything is going to see this. The um it says The people whom I formed for myself, they um will declare my praise. Like, um, I only found out about that a couple year um years ago. So it and it was I was like, that sounds like such a like a Pinterest pin or something. Yeah. It did I'm like, I didn't know that was a Bible verse. So the fact that God can be doing a new thing and that this can be alive and well today. Yes. To c you know, that we can see that got what God is doing is very encouraging and exciting because my like my um sinful thoughts in nature is to get super frustrated with um, you know, just dumb like clutter and being impatient and stuff like that. So today I had to th um take a deep breath and say, you know what, we can um we can get rid of some things. I these toys don't own me. It's not um and so I I I was kind of frustrated and I threw some toys away. And if my daughter notices, I will say, Well, um when you learn to put things away, you can keep things. That might have been a little bit um uh rash of me, but the the thing is I didn't give in to some really um deep d um frustrations about that. I took a deep breath and I, you know, this area of the living room is I want to be, you know, sacred. So yes, when it gets cluttered, I you know want to have an internal like type of freak out. But the new things and the new the beginnings and the fact that this everything has worked out from the bookshelf to the chairs to the you know, getting everything in order is a god thing because I prayed at small group one night. I was like, I really need a special bookshelf and um two matching chairs. And so the day after I picked these chairs up and um and then found the bookcase and it was all so special because I personally think this is you know gorgeous and is such a testament of um you know something I'm passionate about. I love it, yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:51

Yeah, that's why when I was reading that too, and I thought about it when I was on the way here, I was like, you know, this podcast is I'm doing a new thing. This new thing is taking my beautiful daughter Michelle, my bride, and I'm doing a new thing in her life and allowing her to be expressive in her giftings, not that she's too much, that she's using it because that's her gift to refine it. To refine it.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:21

And that's okay, and it's okay. Yes, like it's okay. Something to feel at peace about and to excitement. So something I struggled with was having peace and excitement. Yes. And because that to me used to sound counterintuitive because I was overexcited trying to hide the lack of peace. For real. Yeah. So I would use it to over um to say it was a mask.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:49

And then if people called you fake or that you don't make any sense, or blah blah blah, whatever they they were saying the same thing to me. Yeah. So completely wild how that has, you know, we've, you know, really had these parallels in our lives. And you know what I think about that?

SPEAKER_01 1:14:05

Is even if we used it to cover up, was it fake? No, we were really truly covering it up. That's not fake. You get it?

SPEAKER_00 1:14:17

Like part of that being big. Part of that was our personality. And then the other part was not knowing what to do with it.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:24

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:24

Like, that was the best we could do in the moment.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:27

So we knew what to do.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:28

That I can only show you the what God's put in my heart. Exactly. Because and then and as people I got to know people more and more, right, they they found out what was I was struggling with, or though the the truth came out, but now the there's a piece that coincides that wasn't wasn't there before. There's a there's a w a way that they can go hand in hand.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:52

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:52

So I can have joy, confidence, and uh a peace that can let let a moment breathe. Yeah. Because there's sometimes where in a even in this interview process, I have to pause and let something settle. That's something a skill I've been trying to work on is to, you know, take a breath, be like, wow. That was pr you know, processing something and to let there's a beauty in that silence that you know we can't we can't just but like to let God use that is not just oh I'm having so much fun, la da da da da. But what is God what can God wor do with this that we can have fun and he can be glorified.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:45

Yeah, it's a lot like David, you remember? Like, nah, not that you don't remember, when you read the Psalms, he's always crying out, he's being real. He's actually doing I I don't even know what his facial expressions would have been, or even in the cave, or when he was hiding, like all the things like of David, or when his father told um him basically in front of this one leader that came to pick some of his sons to help, you know, with uh I forget what it was. Sorry, I don't know everything about the Bible, but um um and they and the and the father basically said, Well, he's my the smallest son and the weak one, and he was pushed out to be a shepherd, right? Can you imagine like all those emotions? Well, what did he do out there probably with the shepherd and as a shepherd to the sheep? He probably talked to them and sang to them to hide what he was feeling. Was it a fake moment? No, it was all he knew to cover up what he was feeling and to survive.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:40

And another thing is a shepherd that ends up being one of the main um analogies in chapter in John.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:46

There you go.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:46

So that's not, oh, the poor little shepherd boy, he's nothing. Exactly. No, if God's our good shepherd. Like that's funny. I just thought of that and never thought of it like that before.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:59

And showing that David was actually highly regarded by God, even though the city or the people looks at it as the lowest job. Like, even today, people look at people that are waitresses or garbage men or McDonald's um cashiers as low. I'm like, are you kidding me?

SPEAKER_00 1:17:18

Funny you should say that. That's another thing I struggled with because I thought I was just a cashier and I felt ashamed that I didn't have a college degree. Yeah, but none of that all of that is so important. They want to be served, they want to think people want to be served, and you know what? I think a few customers were happy that I was usually smiling.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:40

And you're and you're adorable. One thing I was saying too, someone made a comment about like the whole trash thingy bobby thing. I said, you know what? If someone forgot to pick up your trash every week, you'd be one happy, unhappy customer screaming and yelling and throwing a fit. Wondering why why wh why would you yeah, you look at them as see what I'm saying? So people don't take things in perspective. And but God does.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:05

And there's a you know, everything is a gift if yeah, like if you think of it from God.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:10

Yeah. You know, we need all of them. We need everybody in the body, like you could be the toe, you know, or you could be the thinker, right? I'm a mouthpiece. I think you and me are the mouth of the body, and I love it.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:24

We're the um, you know, and because in the body of Christ it says in um First Corinthians that we're all important and that we all have our role. Yes, so that means that there's a point that we're not made on accident. That's right. You were never trash.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:40

We were never trash, and you know what? Even too, like you're a good friend. But the one thing I love about you too that I've noticed is you love well. And see, that is not um in every person's um character. So you love well, and that's a gift too, and that you're fun, and we need fun in this world. So I was thinking about again, um the verse when I was thinking about you earlier when it says, I will make a pathway through the wilderness, I will create rivers and the dry wasteland. So when we forget about the former things, and he says, For I'm doing a new thing, can you not perceive it? Or it says in your um here it says, See, I have already begun, do you not see it? I think about the wilderness when he's making that path, or the rivers and the dry wasteland. I've always had this vision of the living water rushing through the wasteland and washing away all the waste. That's all of our past that he talks about. And that so I was thinking about your life, God is taking that river, the rushing waters. Yeah, and that's your passion too. Like your passion is like a rushing water, and you want to spread it to help wipe other people's wilderness, other people's wasteland out of their life. So that's part of this messy amen in this podcast, right? Yeah. Is that does that resonate at all with what I'm trying to say?

SPEAKER_00 1:20:10

Tell our stories because we feel like, oh, I'm the only one that's been through this particular thing. Yeah. So when you know we had Mickey Holmes on to talk about um juvenile detention centers, and if you're talking about um in prisons, these pe and I said it then, I'll say it again, these kids and these adults, there's nothing different besides they got caught doing something stupid. Exactly. So who the heck cares and why would we judge? Exactly. God doesn't rank any sin worse or better than any other sin.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:47

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:48

Whether it's, you know, d hard drugs, prostitution, breaking and entering, or my sinful anger and frustration towards my baby today.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:59

Yeah. And that's you know, so to be able to express these things and to let others to say this was I was really having a hard time and I did that. Okay. Yeah. And and Mickey said he ca he had to learn to not react because he didn't know if some kid was gonna say that he killed somebody. Yeah. And the hard thing is if you're we don't want to be sharing our story in it to not feel safe. And we don't want somebody to, you know how dare you. Exactly. Oh, you did what? I know, right? What do you mean your house is a mess? I o do my dishes five times a day, or um I p I um I always pick up after my kids during their nap times, and then after breakfast, lunch, and dinner, everything is put away right away. Which wouldn't that be nice? That would like I I would love to get into a rhythm. You know, I'd love to look back on this as part two of this episode and say that I have um had a strong sense of a rhythm and maybe I decluttered, you know, half my belongings, you know, besides books and pens.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:12

Yeah. Um can't do that. No. Oh, your markers. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:15

Um like I would love to sit um to be in a better place of having stuff picked up off the floor, and that if the kids are dumping toys, it's not enough toys to bother me.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:26

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:27

But it's these little things because and then my one of my big things is I want to have fun. Like you said, I was fun, thank you. But I have hobbies, and I and as a m I have a strong belief that w moms should not lose hobbies because since God planted something that we're passionate about in our hearts, that we need to have creative hobbies and relaxing hobbies, yeah, and you know, things that can we can meet God in that are like a Sabbath to us that feel restful, even if it's pickleball or even if it's playing a sport or doing an activity, that it refreshes our soul. Yes. So I don't want to ever be so deep into motherhood and think I'm, you know, a martyr and m being a mom. Oh well, it's just my Christian duty as a mother, and then I don't have any time to for to do something that I love.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:19

Or somebody would guilt me to have a b to not have a babysitter. Right. No. Yeah. That is not I I will not apologize and I'm still want to have my hobbies. So my big thing is learning to time block and then make time for my my hobbies, and then I need to time block more for picking up. Which is also true. I should I should take pride in my home. Because today it was driving me nuts that the baby was trying to crawl around and I was trying to play sight word bingo with my friend's two boys um to find a word on their bingo sheet to, oh yeah, I got the word three, or I have the word blah blah blah. So the baby was trying to crawl and make a mess, and you know, everything is a disaster was a disaster, and I was just like, So I was tensing up in my chest over ridiculous, like minute details, and then not enjoying having a baby. But he, you know, that's a very, you know, active and you know, crawling and into everything age.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:22

Yes, it is. Uh it sounds like what uh the beauty of what you're saying is you don't want to lose the identity of who Michelle is in being a parent or a housekeeper or a wife or in the one thing that I did do is I lost my identity and my parenting and I over-emphasized being the the mother because of what I went through as a child. Yeah. Um, yeah, I was not parented, you know, in the way I should have been. So I tried to make up for all that, not realizing it. And I was so involved in my kids, so involved in trying to save my marriage, so involved in trying to keep everything going, for H and all the activities with four children, four special needs children, which is a whole other podcast, um, that I lost my identity.

unknown 1:25:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:15

And it really is not healthy. So I am so proud of you, and you keep doing that. And then go ahead and start blocking what you so you can feel more free in your home. And that will happen because you want it and God's gonna give it to you, you know.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:29

And then I learned the hard way too, is I um and I was staying up too late for oh, this is for my my work, this is the podcast and content creation, all that, and then trying to wake up early. So aga um, you know, there's a very toxic hustle culture online of don't sleep, you need to do this, you need to work and you know, have five jobs. Well, my body still needs to sleep, unfortunately. I can't just be up all night. So two days in a row I got little to no sleep. Um, and then that third that third day I was sick to my stomach and nauseous all day. So um that night got twelve plus hours of sleep and a lot of rest when I didn't feel good, and then I um, you know, felt finally felt b um better that you know Saturday and Sunday. Um and what an odd like wake-up call uh is be like, can you not do that?

SPEAKER_01 1:26:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:28

That's a culture. Because what am I doing is um and then it ends up you know scrolling on my phone too, yeah, and not just you know, going to bed. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:37

And you know, Jesus Jesus rested.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:40

And Jesus was alone.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:41

And was it Elisha or Elijah that he said have a snack and take a nap because he was so depressed. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:48

And you know, the culture teaches us opposite of what God would teach us. And if we uh like what I have learned is I just have to depend on God for everything, all my resources. Yeah, if I don't sleep to make more money, to have more businesses, I'm gonna kill myself, or I'm gonna be a monster in front of everybody around me and to everybody around me. Is that worth it to have more money? No. And then really, am I really being the representation of Christ because I'm being a monster? Nope. Plus again, I wouldn't live if I don't sleep. And so, um, yeah, we just have to depend on God. You know, that's where we have to be.

unknown 1:27:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:32

There's not because there's not enough reels or, you know, merch items to you know, to design or podcast episodes to publish if I lose the whole point. That's right. And lose your family. Yeah, I and lose the time with your family. And I don't wanna be, you know, I can't function without no sleep. I can't function if my house is a mess. Um cl most of the time that's very evident that I'm that might probably why I'm gr if I'm grumpy, it's probably 'cause uh I didn't get something done, right? Um, so it's you know, just f you know, although we're talking about there's not enough things to design, I do have I did design bookmarks. Oh, I love them.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:12

So I have mine on my refrigerator. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:15

But um, you know, even as I collect Bibles and highlighters, there I my ultimate goal is to, you know, draw closer to um Christ and to know him more and abide in him, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:28:29

The other day I told someone now I'm collecting joy and God wings. Yeah. That's where I'm at now, because I used to collect everything. And now I'm like, okay, I'm just gonna collect joy and God wings.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:42

So I get it. I understand. I um have a photo journal that I have to catch up on, so we might do that later. Um, of a pic at least one photo every day, and then I make it like scrapbooky and I tear off like scrapbook pick paper and then stickers and different um different notes, and then I write a caption for the day.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:03

So even if it's like one little photo, then I can make it I can decorate it more, or if there's a bunch of photos, decorate it less. And so that's my collecting joy is to make it um to uh something that what m I can look back on of a day, even if it was boring. Whether collecting joy. Yeah. Whether it was like Lydia in a funny outfit or being ridiculous, then it could be, you know, something silly like her she got stuck in a t-shirt and couldn't get it off or couldn't get it on, and so she's making a funny face and it's stretched over her head, and I'm like, hold on, don't move.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:37

I love that. Yeah, collecting joy for me is like holding my grandson and rocking him to sleep and being with my children or friends, or being here with you, and I was so excited driving up here, and so yeah. Oh man, I just am so excited about being here, but there's a another question I had for you that I was really curious about when I was driving up here. And I was thinking, like, what was I gonna be talking about, right? But what are a couple other areas that you really, really wanted to emphasize on your podcast to share with everybody? Like what kind of subject matters?

SPEAKER_00 1:30:11

Like in the future for other guests.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:13

In the future.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:14

So already we have talked about um addiction, um, cancer, and then other health struggles you've had, um, fathers and um growing up with the abandonment and the rejection and stuff like that, and um, and then just those um marginalized um people, you know, groups like in prisons and stuff like that. And so I think some other um areas that would be good testimonies and you know fun to talk about would maybe be like missionaries that have I been overseas and um whether that's short term or long term, and then maybe even um a lead pastor would be really um so I I um I did have one of our pastors and um Pastor Jim and so that was really fun. Um even more um well yeah, so I had a youth um we had we talked about youth ministry as well. I forgot that one. Um that was a really good episode, and but overall, like as a m like the messy amen, I don't want to uh I think everybody could relate to that. So it could be, you know, having working in a medical field, or it could be um working in foster care or adoption or um even miscarriage, stuff like that, um, which we will be diving into in um the next few episodes. But even I'm trying to think, there was an um one more that um yeah, there there's a bunch. Yeah, from eating disorders to even like eating homeless. So there's so there's so much so much because God really puts it on my heart to have it um like open um like open hands for whatever kind of he lays in my lap. Yes, because I just booked a really fun one. Um she works um at the Faith Christian store down in Flint.

SPEAKER_01 1:32:21

Oh, wonderful.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:22

And I she was talking to other customers, and I was just like, you know what? I'm gonna shoot my sh um shoot my shot. And she said yes, and she said she's just starting a nonprofit. Wonderful. So I love it. I want uh it's like a lot of times you'll hear brands talk about content pillars, but to me it's the pillar is Christ.

SPEAKER_01 1:32:43

Oh, I love it.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:44

It's he's our cornerstone. Yeah. So whatever is built around him and being honest and then amplifying voices and stories to make others feel less alone. Okay, kind of one of my taglines. Um, that's the main goal.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:00

So it's like Michelle using her voice, right? You using your voice and allowing other people to use their voice through you and through your podcast. And I would love everyone to start watching all of her episodes. She said she started in May, May 15th, was it?

SPEAKER_00 1:33:18

No, um March. Um the first episode was released in the beginning of April.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:23

Okay, I had it way wrong. But anyway, it's called uh MessiAmen Pod dot com. So get on there and start watching all these podcasts and go ahead and message her and comment if there's something in your life you think would be exciting to share. Get a hold of Michelle. Um, also, she has a lot of wonderful merch. Here's one of the shirts. I got it navy blue because I got blue ones.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:48

I love that color scheme. I love it. Isn't that great? So if I added a six brand color, it would be navy. Yes. That's how I'll be honest.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:56

I love the navy blue, it brings it out. And look at her little fun. Um, she has these bookmarks that she created. She's got all kinds of merch. You can go on there um and look at what she has that will support Michelle. And um, yeah, and I just think this is wonderful because it is for all the glory to God and sharing the testimonies. So everyone have a beautiful night and know that you are loved, you are seen, you are heard, and that Jesus loves you. And if you do not know Jesus, I know that Michelle would love to talk to you and so message her and even just say, I would love to know Jesus, and I know she'd minister to you. All right, have a good night. See you amen.