You Are Not Unlovable

You Are Not Unlovable

Before we get into it, a gentle heads up. This conversation walks through some real dark places, thoughts of suicide, an abusive marriage, and a story of sexual assault that stayed buried for years. If any of that is close to home for you today, take care of yourself while you listen, maybe save it for when you have space to sit with it.

Okay, now let's talk about Elizabeth Rohn.

She grew up Catholic, went to church every Sunday, and still walked away feeling like she wasn't good enough for God. Years in a toxic marriage, a diagnosis that she couldn't have kids, and a plan to end her life all led up to one night in the car when she heard a voice that wasn't hers. The pain you've been feeling can't compare to the joy that's coming. She didn't know it yet, but that was Romans 8:18.

We talk about the dream where her dog Max stood guard while Jesus stood behind her with His hand on her shoulder. We talk about body dysmorphia, and about the day she finally caught her own reflection and saw something pretty. We talk about golden retrievers too, because Winston and Sawyer deserve their own segment honestly.

Elizabeth's takeaway for you today, whatever isn't your fault, God can redeem. And whatever is your fault, God can redeem that too. Nobody is too far gone. You are not unlovable.

Grab some merch over at amessyamenpod.com, where you'll find shirts, mugs, notebooks, a couple new trucker hats, and a brand new 30 day devotional.

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:33

Hello and welcome back to Messy Amen. This is a show where we talk about the good, the bad, and the holy parts of real life. So, um, I'm Michelle Torrey. Thank you so much for being here. And today our special guest is Elizabeth Roan, um, good friend from church, and how's it going? It's going pretty good. Thanks for having me. Of course. So um I've known you for a few uh couple, two or three years now, and I haven't heard your whole backstory. So today we're about to know you haven't.

SPEAKER_01 1:04

Most people haven't. So my family's watching this, they're gonna find out some stuff too. And be shocked, so I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_03 1:11

So I like before we d dig in, what would you say would have been some like overarching themes and stuff?

SPEAKER_01 1:18

So some overarching themes, probably anger. Like anger was a main theme throughout my life. Anger, depression, anxiety.

SPEAKER_03 1:32

So those are your triggers. Um as far as a reader might would say would be the trigger warnings. Yes. So let's um get right into it. How long have you be um considered yourself a Christian, known the Lord?

SPEAKER_01 1:45

So that's a tricky question. Um, I grew up Catholic, my family was Catholic, went to church every Sunday, was involved in catechism, youth group, all that. Went to a Catholic school for elementary school where I was bullied really bad. And um, but I always felt like I just didn't belong. Like a lot of people I knew when I was growing up that were religious, um, they were very judgmental. Yeah. So I grew up thinking I wasn't good enough for God. That's just where my thought process went, and I think that thought got worse as I got older.

SPEAKER_03 2:26

When people think that the rules and those uh the legalism are more important than the heart of God or the love of God, then that's yeah. So how what did that look like um even like in school than young adulthood?

SPEAKER_01 2:47

So I mean, like growing up I was always made to go to church, which is what we did. And then when I graduated high school, I got the choice and I didn't go. I stopped going. Um I said, I'm grown. Yeah, yeah, basically. Like I don't I don't belong here. That's how I felt, but um yeah, it wasn't until maybe two years ago where I really felt like I got close to God. Had like a supernatural encounter. I don't know how else to say that other than it was like supernatural. So how did that um so how did that happen? So I was going through a really hard time in life. I mean all I've known my entire life was just chaos. But I never knew what peace felt like until probably about two years ago when this happened. But um Yeah, two years ago life was chaotic. I was really I was super depressed. Just gone through a divorce, got out of a very toxic marriage, which really I was like a whole shell of a human when I came out of that. After I got divorced, I found out I couldn't have kids, which really messed me up because I spent all of my 20s hoping I was gonna be a mom, but that's what I always felt like I was called to do. Found out I couldn't have kids and I was just alone, so I felt like I was just going through life lost, and I also felt like I didn't deserve love. So I made a decision that I was going to kill myself. And um, I still remember the day when I was going to do it. I remember being with a friend that day, just talking about how I felt so unlovable and I had no purpose on this earth. And if God was actually real, like show me that I'm loved because I don't feel it. That night I was driving home and I was just sobbing, and the only I don't know, the only way I could describe it is that I felt like something was hugging me, and um tears were falling down my face, but it's so weird because it felt like they were being like caught. And I it's like I heard a voice that wasn't mine in my head that kept saying, The pain you've been feeling can't compare to the joy that's coming. The pain you've been feeling can't compare to the joy that's coming just over and over and over again. Which in some versions of the Bible is Romans 8 18.

SPEAKER_03 5:16

Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_01 5:18

Um, I don't I still don't know how I made it home that night.

SPEAKER_03 5:21

Uh it was like I dissociated and um So you and but that was in your heart if you had been growing up in church, you had heard that before.

SPEAKER_01 5:30

So I never heard that in church. I had heard that a long time ago. Like in a song? No, I had seen I think I had seen it online. It was like a quote. I didn't know it was a Bible verse at the time, but someone really important in my life had an eating disorder and almost died. And um that was the quote I had given her when she was in the hospital, and it always helped me through hard times. Actually, I have it tattooed on my leg now. Oh, even after that. And then I found out it was a Bible verse, and I was like, okay, God was really speaking to me like all these years. Like I just I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 6:08

So there are uh um di many different versions, but in the NLT it says, Yet we su um what we suffer now is nothing compared to the glory he will reveal to us later. And then it goes on to say, for all creation is waiting eager eagerly for that future day when God will revere reveal who his children really are. And you know, that's oh um and then of course towards the end is very m some of the most famous passages we know in like victory and and overcoming and like our purpose in Christ. So that's in Romans 8, 18. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_01 6:43

Yes, yeah. And then I remember getting home that night, laid on my couch, though I was like sobbing. Somebody had actually reached out to me on Facebook and messaged me. Her exact words were, I just want you to know that you have a good heart and you're not unlovable, like word for word. And she didn't know? Yeah, she had no idea. I don't sh she still have to this day has no idea I was planning on killing myself that day. And that's what you were praying. You prayed. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 7:11

And after that, I was like And with no context, like you hadn't been talking to her about No. Nope. Is she does she is she a Christian?

SPEAKER_01 7:20

No. What? Nope. Nope. So wow, yeah. And like that, so from that moment I was like, yeah, God is definitely real. I am loved. Like took a long time to make myself feel loved, but um the next morning I decided to go to church. My friend, Lisa, you know, Lisa, she had been asking me for years to try going with her, and I was like, well, I was like on the fence about it. Went the next morning, and I was so glad it was dark in there, so that way like her and her boyfriend couldn't see me crying, make fun of me. But um, I remember they had a guest speaker that day, and she was talking about love and how we struggle to love ourselves, but we need to ask God to help us love ourselves through his eyes.

SPEAKER_00 8:18

Aww.

SPEAKER_01 8:18

And I like I just needed to hear it, and yeah, I remember it's just like crying that whole time. Like that's just it's yeah, it's so crazy how he works like that. That's amazing. Yeah, and I feel like there's a lot of things like from my childhood that still I wasn't healed from, and I didn't even realize I wasn't healed from until all this stuff in my life kept happening. Yeah, and um, I remember one night I was writing in my prayer journal, asking Jesus to show himself to me, like where was he when I was a child during all these moments or up into adulthood. I had a dream that night. It was almost like a play-by-play of my life. It started when I was little. I remember being I was in my old room playing with my Barbies, but I was crying and I heard a lot of screaming and fighting, and the police came in and I was curled up in a ball just crying. Well, in the dream, my dog Max came up to me, and he was just laying by me, like almost like he was protecting me, which he did in real life too. And then Jesus was standing right behind me with his hand on my shoulder. And then also in the dream, I was a little bit older. Like I was 19. When I was 19, I had also um I had a plan to kill myself. Sorry, it always makes me cry. So that's what we have those for. So my dog Max, when I was 19, at that point he had um arthritis, so he was old, he couldn't jump on the bed or anything. But I remember when I was 19, I was planning to kill myself. And I remember the day that I was going to do it, and I was laying in bed and I was gonna do it. And then all of a sudden Max jumped up on the bed and he put his hand, his head in my lap, and started like whining. And um I remember thinking looking at him and thinking, God, if I wasn't here, like who would love him like I do? Like and um that's a wonderful thing.

SPEAKER_03 10:37

That part was in the dream. Is that one of the reasons dogs are so meaningful to you?

SPEAKER_01 10:41

And I from that moment on animals were like so important to me. Um, but yeah, Jesus was standing there in that dream or in that part of the dream too. So I really think he like uses my animals to speak to me.

SPEAKER_03 10:57

Yeah. Because the dog showed up in your dream from both different points in your life. And he was really and then he was with you that whole time. Wow. Yeah, that's crazy.

SPEAKER_01 11:08

Yeah, those are like the two parts of the dream that I really remember.

SPEAKER_03 11:12

I know there was like that's when we say that's when we say sorry, cat people. God uses dogs.

SPEAKER_01 11:17

No, I'm us too. I'm just kidding. Use my cat Felix for sure. Really? Yeah. I mean, I couldn't I struggled with infertility, didn't know why I couldn't have kids until two years ago. So I feel like my cat Felix kind of helped fill that void. He was there for a season two, where I like home life was very chaotic. Yeah. Being in a toxic marriage, didn't feel loved in my own home, but I felt so much love from that cat. Like it's my best friend.

SPEAKER_03 11:47

Like he So you're one of the rare people that like both cats and dogs.

SPEAKER_01 11:51

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_03 11:52

If it's furry, I want to do that. Well, you can't take the cat hiking, hiking in the UP. No, I can't. Dogs are special. Yeah, no, my dogs are great. That's awesome. So then how um how'd you find um Grace Valley? Because we go to church together, you come to a small group.

SPEAKER_01 12:09

Yeah, so I had been going to a different church, a church that I mentioned before for a few months maybe. Oh, okay. But I felt like I wanted to actually get out there and meet people, make friends, and um there was really nothing to get involved in at that church. So my dad and my stepmom, they started going to Grace Valley. Okay. So they told me about it. So I was like, well, they had been telling me about it for months and months, and you know, like your parents tell you something and you brush it off. And you're like, whatever. They're just saying it. Now I can't. I'm like, can I go back and listen to my mom and dad? I know. So um like they only wanted what was best. Yeah, so I went, um, it was New Year's 2024. So that was the first time I went there, and I was blown away. Like everyone was so welcoming and Grace Valley on Mackinac Road in Saginaw, Michigan. We need a church home. Everybody was so welcoming, and I still remember, um, like I was blown away by how big like the congregation was. Like, there's so many people there. When I went to I still remember Tony Lee made it a point to come up to me when I was in the cafe. She recognized I was new, and she like seemed like she wanted to get to know me and tell me all about the church. And I just remember thinking, like, all these people that go here and they make an effort to get to know me and it's organic organically.

SPEAKER_03 13:34

Yeah. So I used to go to a church and they had something um that they they recognize that I have a gift of trying to connect people, so then they tried to make it like a job like a serve team. It was like it was really interesting. But and then tried to say, Oh, so and so didn't get greeted, or so-and-so didn't get greeted. I'm thinking, I'm only one person, we should all be working together to greet people. So that kind of struck me where I'm just like, come on, like that's not a one-person job. Yeah, but the fact that um the lead pastor's wife and uh such a sweet um friend who was um able to connect and made you feel welcome.

SPEAKER_01 14:15

Yeah, and I was just so blown away too by the amount of like groups to go to, and I really needed that at that time. I needed that community because I I was so isolated for so long. Like I felt like when I came out of that marriage, I didn't have any friends. I had Lisa, that was it. Love Lisa, but um, yeah, I just needed to meet like positive people. You know, I struggled to I might be positively crazy.

SPEAKER_03 14:45

No, I'm just kidding. I love the crazy positively um cuckoo bananas.

SPEAKER_01 14:50

No, you are so positive. Actually, I remember the first time I came over here and met Jared and I was so shocked seeing how you and Jared and were like just so loving. Oh you guys were just so I had never been exposed to like a positive relationship in my life. Oh wow. Like, and I just I remember like looking at you and Jared and I'm like, that's what I want. Oh, well that just happened.

SPEAKER_03 15:14

Um and but you're in a relationship now. I am so yes, and he is great. Yeah, so the Lord willing, he'll propose soon. Maybe one day. So dig in more uh some of the ways that um God has just continued to help um help you grow in your faith and maybe some Bible passages.

SPEAKER_01 15:36

Yeah, so I mean going back to love, I mean, was it Corinth 1 Corinthians? 13, yeah. So it's it seems so weird being like in my 30s and having to learn what love is, but Oh, yeah, but yeah, love is patient and kind, love is not jealous or boastful or proud or rude, it does not demand its own way, it is not irritable, and it keeps no record of being wronged. It does not rejoice about injustice, but rejoices whenever truth wins out. Love never gives up, love never loses faith, is always hopeful, and endures through every circumstance. And that's one thing too, like reflecting on that, that applies to yourself too.

SPEAKER_03 16:22

Yeah, and you have to be patient and kind to yourself. We can, yeah. So um, yeah, reflecting on 1 Corinthians 4, it's um the whole chapter is about love, but full um four through eight is the some of the more famous ones. But I opened this up and I want to show you real quick. Here are some um I made a little insert one night for different like emergency verses for Bible verses, and then this said something about like PTSD and um things that were one of them was oh yeah, this these highlights are like PTSD and stuff, and then the other ones are labeled, but and then that was highlighted in my Bible, and it says, if I'm feeling bitter and critical to remember to love. Yeah, which can be a struggle. So, um, but if you don't have that framework, then asking God to help you start from fresh um is good.

SPEAKER_01 17:20

I always yeah, when I first started um my journey with God, um I always asked him, like, please clean up the problem areas in my heart. Show me what needs to be cleaned up.

SPEAKER_03 17:34

And some people that might have been a Christian for years and years are might be afraid to like actually put themselves out there and it might feel kind of vulnerable. Like, don't look at my heart. There's some yeah, there's some things in there.

SPEAKER_01 17:46

No, I wanted to know because I I was tired of being so angry. I was tired of being I was tired of not being able to look at myself in the mirror and like not see anything good. And yeah, I still like my whole life I struggle with body dysmorphia too. So like I never that can be true.

SPEAKER_03 18:07

Seems so weird to say that because like Well that's a new it's a newer term, yeah, but I think more people can relate to it than they realize, might they just might not have heard of it when you don't feel comfortable in your skin and when women's clothing is all messed up with their sizing, and you're like like there are days where I'm like I don't want to shop for jeans and pants with numbers. I'm like, I'll take a larger an XL, but if you tell me I'm a size 14 or 16, that no thing, yeah. But like and then it makes you feel oh, but then you're saying, oh, I don't want to think that, because then you could feel like you're being mean to somebody who might be larger. Yeah, and I'm just like nobody needs it just seems weird.

SPEAKER_01 18:50

Like, I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 18:51

It's such a weird phrase to say, like, oh yeah, I have this, but but I um Well, it's not it's not your fault because I think society has made a point to say that people should be like a size three or two or three.

SPEAKER_01 19:05

Well, no, I just yeah, for the longest time I would just look in the mirror and all I would see was ugly. Like I just I never and I used to like and it sounds so shallow, like, but I used to like pray to God, like, please help me see myself how you see me.

SPEAKER_03 19:19

Like I just not shallow.

SPEAKER_01 19:20

I want to like I want to be happy in my own skin. Yeah. Remember one day I caught a reflection of myself in the mirror. I was outside with my dogs, or looking at my sliding door, and I saw something pretty. I started crying. I was like, he answered me. Awww.

SPEAKER_03 19:37

He's really in those details, even if it seems if even if it feels silly, it's still so valuable and important. Yes. To have a relationship and that back and forth communication. Yeah. So you exh expressed what you wanted and then he gave it right back to you exactly what you said. Yes. Yeah. It's so crazy how it works. That's awesome. Yeah. So, like, w some of the other like struggles and stuff that you've been through, what would you say are like highlights now? Like, say that I used to feel like this and now I feel like this. You've already said that you didn't feel lovable, now you do.

SPEAKER_01 20:23

Yeah, yeah. So I mean, and then struggling with depression my whole life. As I was a five-year-old, I remember there was like signs of depression in me.

SPEAKER_02 20:36

Oh no.

SPEAKER_01 20:37

But with my home life, it's understandable. There was a my family is so different now than they used to be when I was growing up. I have to disclaim that. But my what was going on? So much fighting, so much anger in my household. Like, that's all my parents did was fight. Like, I just remember too, like, my dad was a truck driver. And I'm so sorry to my dad because we are so close now.

SPEAKER_03 21:00

But um, he would He can be a new creation in Christ, too, right? Exactly. That's so we can talk about it. We can pray for peace, that's everything. Like you being open and honest is not saying that you don't love him, but that you know, showing how God's um just re redeemed situation.

SPEAKER_01 21:21

Yes. But yeah, I remember he was gone during the week, so we didn't see him during the week, but then weekends, the environment was so tense. My mom would be on edge about him coming home, and then he would come home and he'd just be angry about everything, and all they would do is fight. And I remember I would stick up for my mom and like not even knowing what was going on. I just know I'd get woken up from sleep and hear my dad yelling, so like quit yelling at my mom. But like Wells to know, right? Right, and I was little like my brother would get into trouble, um, to the point where police would come, they would come and take him and And I remember me and my younger brother were always so traumatized by seeing that. Like just I would always try to be the strong one. I remember my younger brother probably doesn't remember this because he was like a year or two. Um I'm three years older than him. But I remember being with my grandma and I would be like comforting my brother, like, it's okay, it's okay, this happens, it's okay. Like, we don't have to cry, it's okay. Like, just be comforting him, but I knew I was scared too. And um yeah, there's just so much anger, like my whole life. And then I always thought it was normal that if you're with somebody or married to somebody who is angry and doesn't treat you the best, you stay. That's just what you do. So that type of relationship was normal. And that's why I got into the marriage that I was in. And I still remember um I think it was 2019, day that Lakin was born. I started therapy with another counselor. And I had been to therapy um my entire adult life on and off. Um, but I remember this counselor, this is the first time I ever talked about my marriage and counseling, but I didn't know anything was wrong because it was normal to me. But she asked me like how we handle arguments and stuff and what happens, and I remember like telling her some stuff, and her eyes got all big, and she had me papers about abuse. And I was like, I'm not being abused, like he doesn't hit me, he doesn't actually like do this, but some of the stuff he was doing comes across as abuse.

SPEAKER_03 23:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:42

So I just remember going home that day. I was like, I'm not gonna go to this therapist anymore. Like, there's no way. And I still remember that day, like I was so excited because I was waiting to hear the word about Lakin being born and everything. I was cleaning the bathroom, and I remember my ex-husband, he had walked in and he was mad because he had to go to the bathroom, and he was mad that I was in there and I was taking too long. So he got mad and busted up the toilet seat. Looked at me and goes, You made me do this. This is stuff that happened quite often. And I remember thinking, Whoa, the counselor's right. Counselor's right. And that was like the day after. This was the same day. The same day. Yeah, because I went to therapy in the morning, came home, was cleaning, waiting to hear about Lakin being born. That's how I remember what day this was. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 24:38

So that was like your kind of wake-up call.

SPEAKER_01 24:40

Yeah. And then I still stayed for because it was that was 2019. We got divorced in 2024. There were times where I tried I had tried to leave and then ended up back. Because that's what happens when you're dealing with something like that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 25:02

So he was just emotionally abusive, sounds like narcissistic. Yeah. And then what do you ever like say, like, poor me and like want to cry like a baby and be like, oh yeah. It's it's everybody else's fault.

SPEAKER_01 25:14

Oh, for sure. It was always me that made him do it. I mean, I'm sure I did stuff that like set him off, but not perfect. Oh my gosh. But yeah, it was just it was not good.

SPEAKER_03 25:29

So then how did you end up leaving? Um talk about that?

SPEAKER_01 25:33

Um So every time we would get into an argument, he would tell me he wanted me out of his life and he wanted a divorce. But then like ten minutes later, he would act like nothing happened. So then finally that day, I remember I had COVID and it was the day that the like the first day I could leave the house. So went to Walmart because I was craving checks mix. So I remember that detail. And I was also really excited that day because I was gonna start planting flowers from seed, and I had like the lights and everything in the hill set up, and I was gonna set it up in my basement. My whole plan was I was gonna make canine baskets to sell. And he knew I was excited about that, and I told him about it, and he got mad because he was like, That's a mess I'm gonna have to clean up, and blah blah blah. And I'm like, I'm not gonna make you clean up my mess. And um finally he was just like, I wanna get divorced, I'm gonna divorce. So I remember looking at the door, I'm like, there's a door. I was like, I'll even help you pack your stuff.

SPEAKER_03 26:41

Like literally.

SPEAKER_01 26:42

And he's like, Are you serious? I'm like, Yes. I was like, leave. And he goes, Where am I supposed to go?

SPEAKER_03 26:51

Like, so he ended up at his mom's gosh, but um over some flowers, and he just was being a weirdo.

SPEAKER_01 26:59

Yeah, there's more that goes into it, obviously. I don't wanna put the guy on blast online, so but blast, blast, blast.

SPEAKER_03 27:08

No nice uh I mean years of abuse, anyone can understand that you're ready to just get out. And so that's completely understandable. And you know, with abuse or infidelity and stuff like that, it's like compl that's you know, not one of those things people get these ideas of you know divorce and they're like, Oh, you should never do that. Or I'm like But they're sometimes you have to for your like at some point, you know, you'd have to under like God doesn't rank sin. So God can r think of the same uh if God can think of the same sin for you know divorce as he does with like drugs and alcohol or like you doing abusing somebody or literally all like it's all the same to God, which before anybody freaks out means that we can be redeemed from everything that even though it sucks and doesn't sound fair that it's the same, it's that much grace and um mercy that God gives us. Just gonna put that out there because it doesn't sound like it sounds like oh, you know, we well, I'm a nice person. I didn't do that. Doesn't like that's the th that's the thing that a lot of people struggle with, is they think, well, I'll just be really nice and then I can go to heaven. Unfortunately, it doesn't work. Yeah, unfortunately um, you know, fortunately and unfortunately that God wants our whole hearts, not not just um being a decent person. Yeah. Cause He wants us to admit that we're not any like we're nothing without Him. But He calls us into you know a relationship with Him. Yeah Sidetrack. No But that that really doesn't sound fair if you usually if you just say that to random a random person. But yeah, so uh you know we got divorced, but here we are. We're um growing in our faith and you know smiling. Yep. It's the best thing that could have happened, honestly. Sometimes in their no good, you gotta kick them to the curb, I guess. Yep. But you know, and that way when you do enter into a godly marriage, you know that's a whole different ball game. So there's there's new rules for that one, but in that c in that case there's yeah, there's nothing else you could have done. Right. Especially because now then you found Christ after that.

SPEAKER_01 29:35

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean I always believed in God, but like I said, I never thought I was good enough for God.

SPEAKER_03 29:42

Like very skewed, you know, perception of things. Yeah, yeah. So then um what happened you between um so you had basically said that there was a good s handful of years where you knew you were in a bad situation, but then you didn't get out. So then in the last two years, let's get um um dig in a little bit deeper. Recent two years?

SPEAKER_01 30:06

Okay. Yeah, so yeah, I mean it was well a little over two years ago that I went through the divorce.

SPEAKER_03 30:13

Cause it must have been pretty recent, but right before I met you. Cause I thought I met you. Yeah. Did I didn't we um you come a group in twenty twenty-three or twenty twenty-four? Twenty five. Okay, so yeah, twenty-five. Okay. Yep. So then um that was still somewhat recent. And that cause you barely mentioned it. Um yeah, something I didn't talk about. You mentioned it once and then um not much after that. And then I was like, oh okay, well I was like, we'll find out eventually.

SPEAKER_01 30:47

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm pretty private about like my life like that. I don't know. I just don't talk about it. Which I should because it can help people going through something similar.

SPEAKER_03 30:57

But yeah, so there two different times where you're like let's I want I want to be done. You're like three.

SPEAKER_01 31:05

Three Yep Recently I nope. I did make an attempt when I was twenty one. Okay. So that's it. Shortly after I got married, actually. But I had something else that was very traumatic happen to me um when I was younger that I never dealt with and it was starting to come up. Um I was right and I don't talk about that ever. But um I like could not handle it. I couldn't live with it. Because there was a lot of there's a lot of self-blame that goes in with that. Like you hear people like, why didn't they say anything? Like people say stuff years later, and it's so easy for people to say, like, why didn't they ever say anything? Why didn't they say anything when that happened?

SPEAKER_03 31:53

There's so much you hear a lot of stories, yeah. Like it's just you getting criticized or you know, blame or whatever. That was not your fault.

SPEAKER_01 32:02

No, it's not. I realize that now, years later. But um yeah, like I yeah. I ended up um one day trying to kill myself. I started swallowing pills. And all of a sudden I'm looking in the mirror and I'm like, why am I doing this? Why am I doing this? Why am I letting him like have that control over me? Made myself throw up, told my brother, he took me to the hospital, took me to the ER, and then I was in inpatient care for a little bit, and um yeah, that that's something that's really that's hard to work through. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 32:45

There's some some days where I wonder like w if I were to heal more from that type of situation, yeah, what it would look like, or do I just continue to have fun and do happy things? Yeah. Like, and which like did you so did you talk to your therapist about that?

SPEAKER_01 33:07

It took a really long time to open up about a rape to my therapist. And then um did was it a guy or a girl? A girl. Or the therapist you mean? Yeah. It was a girl, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 33:17

Yeah. I meant like did she did she say something that was helpful?

SPEAKER_01 33:24

Like, um is she a Christian? Was there No, she wasn't. I don't think she was. I don't it wasn't like a faith-based counselor at that time. But um honestly, I don't think she really said anything that was like helpful about that. Like she just looked more shocked than anything, because it took me like over ten years to start opening up about it. Um Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 33:48

I mean the stats are ugly for that, and I'm really sorry that happened. Like, more oftentimes than not, women will eventually s come out, you know, either soon after or years later, you'll find out what happened, you know. And I would just say that you were talking about your dog and Jesus showing up there. Like, I just want you to know too that that broke Jesus' heart. Oh yeah. That broke God's God's heart, same as same as your parents yelling, same as all the other things. Oh yeah. Like, so many people can say, Oh, if God exists, why do bad things happen? It's like God gave, you know, the free will and then longs for us to choose Him, but there's so much brokenness and you know, when we grieve and when we're crying that God counts every tear and that it grieves Jesus like grieve um so much when our hearts are broken. So as we heal and grow from that, we just pray, you know, for you know, that joy and peace. And like I said, if there's a um a magic thing to say besides reading some of the psalms and about heartbreak and um just that God is there for like you know, the psalms are pretty much pretty much what I got for you. Lamentations in another one that's about just that crying out to God for those types of situations. But um, you know, that I'm sure that was triggering too, getting married, and then if you hadn't, you know, had as many experiences between those, yeah, then that would be like, oh crap, well d what does this look like? And then he did wasn't a nice guy anyway. Yep. So then you really really struggled. Because that's a struggle for a woman getting into a nice marriage that they still it it's painful and something to that they have to um work through. Yeah. So I imagine that would be even worse with a um not a mean husband. Yep. So um I'm proud of you.

SPEAKER_01 36:01

Well, thank you. Done a lot of work in the past two years to become not a shell of a human.

SPEAKER_03 36:09

Yeah, to and like and plus um, so tell me what you like to do on your spare time.

SPEAKER_01 36:14

Because I could start ta telling everybody about tell uh tell everybody yourself. So I don't have a lot of spare time, I work a lot, but I love hiking. I love finding random places to hike and take my dogs and just enjoy. Tell me about your dogs. Oh yeah. Winston.

SPEAKER_03 36:33

He's the oldest, he's two and they're but they're you have two what?

SPEAKER_01 36:37

Two golden retrievers. So I got Winston. Actually, this is so funny I have to share this. Just I got him shortly after I got divorced. A week before my ex-husband and I separated, it was Christmas Eve, and I was at my dad's, and we were talking about like loneliness and everything, and how it hits you hard at night. And he asked me, like, what would you do if your husband left? I said, I would get a golden retriever because they're loyal. Who asked for that? My dad. So then a week later is when we separated, it was New Year's Eve. And I remember my first thought was, Man, now I could get a golden retriever. Like, it just spoke that into existence.

SPEAKER_03 37:17

Like that's amazing.

SPEAKER_01 37:20

Yeah. So I remember seeing like I had been like looking around online for golden retrievers and everything, and I'm like, they're so expensive. Breeders are expensive. But I remember an ad for a breeder just randomly came on my Facebook page, but it was like a live video, and they just had puppies born that day. Golden Retriever puppies, and I felt so drawn to it. I was like, I'm calling, I'm calling.

SPEAKER_03 37:46

Like the day after you like he No, this was like a couple months later.

SPEAKER_01 37:51

Okay. But um, yeah. So the day Winston was born, I called and I was I had first pick of the litter and everything. And um, he had the funniest personalities.

SPEAKER_03 38:02

He's a little bit, he's like medium, like color, like on the scale of those. He's he's yeah, he's like your typical golden like light to medium, and then um the your baby girl. Sawyer.

SPEAKER_01 38:14

Yeah, she's light. She's like white, she's like cream colored.

SPEAKER_03 38:18

Very cream. Yeah. But like how fun is that? They are so fun. They are. I always um we're switching gears because we're talking about heavy stuff, but yeah, stuff that you like to do, that's what you're passionate about and like keeps you alive. Do you feel like connected to God when you're um out hiking? You say wow.

SPEAKER_01 38:35

Oh yeah, definitely. Definitely. I love and it's so weird. My parents worry about me because I like to go up to the UP alone and stuff and go hiking. Well, if you ever want to come at me for a few nights. But I love going by myself because I just feel like I can talk to God. Like there you go. That's so weird.

SPEAKER_03 38:50

Like, I'll put my headphones in, listen to worship music while I'm walking through the take me with you and you can still have headphones, but then I can help with the dog. There we go. And as long as you don't mind if it seems like I'm ignoring you. Oh, you can ignore me all you want. I just want to hike too. Possibly bring we can possibly bring Lydia and then get her into some hiking. There you go. I want to break her of any complaining and stuff like that. That's the perfect way to do it. Yeah, while she's young, and that way when she in like a few years she can go to the Dominican Republic with me. There you go. So hiking's the perfect way to do it. Yeah, exactly. We're going we're going to VUP in October. So I want to go in the fall so bad. Oh my gosh. So good. Where are you guys going? Um to So we're going to a marriage retreat on Mackinac Island. Oh, okay. And then um staying in a Airbnb or uh bed and breakfast. Oh, that's a good one. And then um, I'm sure like one of the days, um, like on the way back or whatever, we will do some hiking and maybe catch the falls or something. Oh yes. So yeah, yeah, I always see your things. I'm like, she didn't. You know, I'm like anybody don't feel bad. Like no, we should get some girls together and get like an Airbnb or something. It'd be so fun. Um, and like, you know, before it's like freezing cold. Yeah. Um, you know, end of September or something. Yeah, so pretty up there seeing all the leaf changed colors and that's exactly why I I like to go the first week of October. We went right after we got married, and then um it's my favorite. Um, that's the peak colors in the UP. Yeah, and then peak in um the lower peninsulas like in the next two weeks in mid-October. So but yeah, so now as now as you've been healing and um you know getting to know people at church and um hiking more and more, you feel like you've kind of found yourself again. Yeah. So tell me about like going from those years and years of chaos, your parents fighting, abusive marriage, on all of that, and just not having the peace and the a and then having anger to now having joy and finding yourself again.

SPEAKER_01 40:56

That was hard. That was hard. Because if you feel like you've never known peace, peace can feel dangerous. It feels weird. Like it is it yeah, like your nervous system is not used to it. I just remember um like after I started going back to church and everything, um, I still felt really lost. Like, because I still kind of had that nagging feeling like I have no purpose after finding out I couldn't have kids. And um I just walked around lost all the time. But I also was like expecting something to happen, like you know, I'm like a piece of it, I'm not used to it, but I just remember it was Christmas the year after I got divorced. A friend gave me a Bible for Christmas, and I thought it was like the nicest thing ever, because it is something that was so important to her. And I started crying, and I'm like, you're sharing something so important to your s or so important to you with me, like it's just yeah, and it took me a couple weeks to actually open the Bible. I remember one day just wandering around my house, like it was winter, I couldn't go anywhere. There was a snowstorm, and I'm like, I'm just gonna open up the Bible. It started with the gospels, and that's kind of what clicked for me was like, whoa, I am good enough for God. Just seeing the types of people Jesus helped and who he ministered to, and I'm like sick and sinners, and yeah, they're just like me. Like, you're just like me.

SPEAKER_03 42:32

And um they had issues and messy, messy stories.

SPEAKER_01 42:36

Yeah, I was just like blown away. But I remember every single day I was so excited, that's all I looked forward to. Reading the Bible, taking notes on it, and just like that's what I did every night after work. Then I started working nights, and it was super slow. So that's all I did while I was working is just read the Bible and take notes. Like, and me and Lisa talk about it too. It's like magic, it's like a magic book, like divine intervention. Yeah, yeah. I um and I was really open about like my journey with like finding God and stuff and how I like came out of that depression and everything, and actually I had someone reach out to me who doesn't believe in God, but he was following my stuff and he was like, So how do you do this like praying thing? Like yeah, and what's like what is the God thing all about? Like, like he wanted to learn, like I don't know, I just thought that was amazing. That like made me realize like I'm doing the right thing, like sharing my experiences, like I'm not perfect by any means, like but but God needs us where we're at.

SPEAKER_03 43:37

Yep, and he's um like spoken to you and given you these signs to you know keep going and pressing forward, yeah, even when you're not sure what what he's gonna do next.

SPEAKER_01 43:48

That's so crazy though. Oh, the other day I actually saw a quote that said, I know or I don't doubt God's love for me because I've seen how he provides for me in seasons where I'm not even talking to. Him. And it just got me thinking about like all these moments in life where like I wasn't talking to him.

SPEAKER_02 44:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:07

But he was talking to me. So I like really think that he talks to us in ways that he knows we're gonna hear it, whether we know it's him or not.

SPEAKER_03 44:15

And sometimes before you even realized it. And like you were saying a Bible verse, but you didn't realize it was a Bible verse. Which is also in like a song, it's like, and the pain that you've been feeling can't compare it to the joy that's coming. Or I just butchered that so bad. But there's a reason I'm not on the praise team and I'm just that I um can't keep in tune to save my life, and I can't remember songs as much unless like I feel like that everything comes back when I actually listen, but then I can't, you know, remember on the spot. Yeah. But like that's incredible. Like, and then but you've been working evenings lately now where so many times it's so you have like a few days on, few days like a couple nights off, or a couple days, you know. Yeah, you have one or two days off, but it's like random.

SPEAKER_01 45:04

Yeah, like I'll have Wednesdays off and Sundays are not even together, so it's fine. So it's like um you haven't even been to small group and yeah, I haven't been in a while. It's my work schedule. Ever since I had surgery. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 45:17

Like I've um so when you would say, so t kind of talk to somebody that just is feeling like that, and maybe something that was the turning point, maybe it wasn't just about being unlovable, but that you know, that maybe somebody sinned too much.

SPEAKER_02 45:35

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_03 45:36

Like, I mean that that wasn't even something you mentioned, but but no, I get it, because we're all sinners. Yeah, so what would like what would you say to um somebody who is like r needs a little bit extra than what we said?

SPEAKER_01 45:48

Not to sound like cliche, but seriously open up the gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, and just see the types of people that Jesus helped. Even if you don't believe in God, just do it. It's like magic.

SPEAKER_03 46:02

We because John, especially, if you've never read the Bible and you want to know about Jesus, I encourage people to open up to John because it starts off really with m it doesn't start off as a narrative, which is unique. Um it's that's what sets really sets it apart. Yeah. But it says, um, in the beginning was the word um the word already existed. The word was with God, and the word was God. And word in this case is capitalized because it's talking about Jesus. And it says he existed in the beginning with God. He God created everything through him, and nothing was created except through him. The word gave life to everything that was created, and his life brought light to everyone. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness can um can never and never extinguish it. So the light we have from Jesus is never gonna go out. Nope. And then we talk uh it just goes into um John the Baptist, and then down in uh verse 14 says, The word became human and made his home among us. He was full of unfailing love and faithfulness, and we have seen his glory, the glory of the Father's one and only Son. So the unfailing love. I would um tell us more about how you felt God's unfailing love in the last couple years.

SPEAKER_01 47:28

So, I mean, besides that moment, I just feel like he's just shown me so much of my past where like he showed me, like, hey, I was there, I was there. Maybe I didn't listen to him, but he was definitely there. Like, I remember before I got married. I still remember sitting in my room at the apartment I lived in, and I could hear a voice so clearly in my head, don't get married, don't get married, you're gonna have years of hurt, don't get married. And I remember telling that voice, I'll deal with it when that time comes. Like, just I was in such a hurry to grow up, start a family, and just get out of the environment I was in. Can you I should have listened to that voice.

SPEAKER_03 48:11

Yeah, speak up, speak on that, because that's yeah, not everyone can say that they felt that nudge. Well, would you you know tell some tell somebody that if they're you know 19, 20 years old?

SPEAKER_01 48:21

Yeah, and that's how old I was, I was 20 21. Yeah, if you hear something like that, you're not crazy, first of all.

SPEAKER_03 48:30

It's probably God, like Yeah, you you really don't the Holy Spirit is really special in that um the nudges, the little signs and wonders, and the pokes and winks and all of these things, doesn't matter what you want to call it, yep, be open to hearing from God and don't be afraid to ask for um something from him because he always says um knock and the door will be opened, seek and you will f be find. Doors open. And that um if you need to him to speak to you, he will. So if you've never um asked God into your heart, um you can feel free to message me, you can find me online. Um the way that God works is that no matter what you've done, no matter what you've gone through, the pains and the heartbreaks that you've experienced, that He wants to take your heart, put it back together, and help you to grow into the person that He's called you to be. Not how the world has shaped shaped you and hurt you and all that, right? Mm-hmm. Yep. That's that's hard because then you lost you lost um, you know, what what you would normally say is l losing all those years. Yeah. Now you've had to give it to God and you know, say, Lord, this was my hurt, this is my pain, um take it from me. Yeah. You know. So as far as that goes, um, can you just give me a one or two more verses that we can throw out, throw at people real quick?

SPEAKER_01 50:16

Yeah. So it's funny that you mentioned like sin, too much sin. 1 Peter chapter 1, verse 14. Don't slip back into your old ways of living to satisfy your own desires. You didn't know any better then.

SPEAKER_03 50:33

Is that that always sticks out a nice message translation to give give us the the easy version? I love that. Yes. Some the message is great for those paraphrases. There's there's nothing wrong. So sometimes it's okay to um grab an easy um message quote because that's um there's a language there that's going to feel more relatable or like punchier.

SPEAKER_01 51:02

It says new living translation, it's right from there.

SPEAKER_03 51:04

So it's easy to do the um the new living and message. I f think they go great.

SPEAKER_01 51:11

Um for easy um someone just starting to read the Bible, New Living Translation's great.

SPEAKER_03 51:16

Yeah, or like that everyday um language, but then I love to pair it with the ESV or the um NKJ V for um some of the rich um vocabulary.

SPEAKER_01 51:29

What can you tell me again what it was? Um it was 1 Peter chapter 1 verse 14.

SPEAKER_03 51:37

So, yeah. You must you must live as God's obedient children. Don't slip back into old ways of living to satisfy your own dis decisions. You didn't know any better now. But now um you must be holy in everything you do, just as God who chose you is holy, for the scriptures say you must be holy because I am holy. Remember that the Heavenly Father to whom you pray has no favorites. He will judge and r or reward you according to what you do. So you must live in reverent fear of him during your time here as temporary residence. For you know for you know that God paid a ransom to save you from the empty life you inherited from your ancestors, and is not paid with mere gold or silver, which lose their values. It was the precious blood of Christ, the sinless, spotless Lamb of God. God chose him as your ransom long before the world began, but now in these last days he has been revealed for your sake. So that can probably be taken some different ways for oh no, we're gonna get judged according to what we do. That might sound tricky, so I you know, I would definitely recommend um some commentaries, like if during words, we're speaking, um Bible knowledge commentary. Some of those um commentaries can help get the context because that sounds tricky if you um aren't understanding the grace and faithfulness that uh of God's unfailing love. That you gotta, you know, make sure they stay together. Yes. That um, you know, uh because ch 1 Peter's a good one. See, we get in chapter 2, and it's verse 1 says, Get rid of all evil behavior, be done with all deceit, hypocrisy, jealousy, and all unkind speech. Um like new newborn babies, you must crave spirit um spiritual milk that you'll grow into a full experience of salvation. Cry out for this nourishment that you um now that you have tasted, um had a taste of the Lord's kindness. So, and then it goes on to talk about Jesus being our cornerstone. So all of this kind of goes hand in hand. So each book can kind of um complement each other. There, you know, there's 66 of them. Oh yeah and there's so much richness and um the beautiful scriptures that a lot of people there'll be verses that you never heard of. I literally just I just heard one in um Lamentations that God didn't want um send things to happen to break our hearts that He you know doesn't mean for those things to happen, but that you know, and now we know that in Christ we can be made whole again. So like there's just so many God wings and like woven throughout, right? Yes, for sure. If you wanted to um if I asked you to sum this up in just a few sentences for um and then you wanted somebody to really have a takeaway, what would you say it was?

SPEAKER_01 54:39

So anything bad that happens to you most likely is not your fault, and you're never too far gone to come back from that. Like there's always I don't know, there's always a silver lining.

SPEAKER_03 54:56

Uh God can God can give you um the comfort and closure that the world cannot. So what I'm hearing you say is that when the world and people break our hearts and the traumas and the um, you know, trials and tribulations and all of those things, um, those aren't our fault. That God can redeem those. And then when we have sinned and it is our fault, and we can be stupid um lambs, as like, you know, God being our good shepherd, or like the Israelites, but plenty of plenty of stories there. So what's the half that's not our fault, God can redeem. And the half that is our fault, God can redeem. Yes. So whether that is trauma or sin or divorce or depression or anything like that, um, I want anybody listening to just remember that God wants to take all of that hurt and pain from you and um to give you back a clean, pure heart and um to mul multiply your love for him as you can grow in your faith. And whether that is new or old or um anywhere in between, um be encouraged in that today. And as always, grab some grab some merch over at messyamanpod.com where you'll find t-shirts, mugs, uh, notebooks, and more, a couple new trucker hats that are really cute, and then um some digital downloads. There is a brand new um devotion, a 30-day devotional you can check out over there. And always, as always, we'll see you next time.