#8 Navigating the Balance of Data and Feel in Endurance Training

In this episode of Cartel Coaching, Emma, Tim, and Cal discuss the evolving role of technology in endurance sports and how athletes can balance data-driven insights with intuitive feel. They explore practical advice on when to rely on gadgets like power meters and heart rate monitors versus honing self-awareness and internal cues.

Key Topics:

• The impact of tech like GPS, power meters, and heart rate monitors on training and racing
• The risks of "paralysis by analysis" and over-reliance on data
• How to use technology appropriately based on experience level and goals
• The importance of developing pacing skills through feel vs. device
• External factors like heat, fatigue, caffeine, and sleep affecting training metrics
• Transitioning from high-tech to intuitive training for better enjoyment and resilience
• Real-world examples of athletes managing data and feel for optimal performance

Come find us Cartel Coaching — Swim. Bike. Run. Together.

Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:18

Team, welcome to Cartel Coaching. I am Callum Millward. I'm an ex-professional triathlete and three times IMN 70.3 champion. And now I'm getting a proper reintroduction into the sport of triathlon as an age grouper. I spent a number of years at the pointy end of the sport, and now I've got a business, a life, a family, and the same 24 hours as everyone else who is trying to figure out how to be competitive again. And I tell you what, it is super humbling and it's interesting. What I bring to the table is the elite side of things. I'm living the age group reality right now. Not going to pretend that they're the same thing. With me every episode is Tim Brazier, who coaches everyone from first-timers to Olympians, and M, our resident age grouper, who is keeping us honest. This is Cartel Coaching, and let's get into it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:06

Okay, welcome back to Cartel Coaching. Okay, so today, today I had a really interesting run, actually, Tim. I don't know what's happening, but it's all starting to feel good. And I think, I actually think it's off the back of something you said to me when we were in Noosa. So you were telling me that I should stop paying attention to my watch so much and just sort of go with what I'm doing. And I'll tell you what, since since that's been happening, um I've been feeling a lot better. So thank you. Thank you for that. That little tip. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:40

Welcome. We actually had that conversation today, Cal and I, in our webinar with the cartel community on school.

SPEAKER_02 1:47

Oh, whoopee.

SPEAKER_05 1:48

And we're chatting about watch use in swimming.

SPEAKER_04 1:51

Um a lot of old school coaches and athletes, swimmers obviously, uh are not big on the tech, and I'm all for it. I like using the pool clock. I think it keeps it simple. I can't handle when people are bringing too much tech to the pool, stopping watches, starting watches. I feel like it sort of kills it a little bit. Totally agree.

unknown 2:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 2:19

When I'm pool side coaching, I'm just like sort of covering my eyes at times and like, can you just put your watch away? They're coming and gliding into the wall, tapping their watch, gliding off the wall, tapping their watch. And I'm trying to figure out often the reasons why. And maybe they're in their split times from it and you know, regularly, and that's cool, which they are, some of them are, I know they are, but the data afterwards is so average when you load it into training peaks that it's just not worth it. Um and you've got a beautiful clock there on the side of the pool you can just look up at. It's really easy.

SPEAKER_04 2:52

I guess though, you know, a a lot of the influence falls or sort of trickles down from what the pros are doing. You see Lionel Sanders, he's in the pool, he's got wireless headphones on, he's got a watch on, he's got goggles on. And I guess for some of the people that live and breathe data, it's it's important. And I guess if you're if you're unsure of your pacing abilities, you've never been in a swim squad, you've started swimming later in life, uh, maybe it is somewhat reassuring, but um, I still feel like there's some kind of pureness. It's a bit like going running in the forest or the woods without earphones on and just soaking it all up. Also, I think for the people that overanalyse stuff and cannot keep out of their own way, it's good just to turn up at the pool. I just look at the clock, what time I get in the pool. If I get in at four o'clock, I swim for an hour and I cover 3K. That's all I'll put in my training peaks. And um we're just ignoring average speed um because we know what session we've done, you record the session, keep it simple, stupid, and Bob's your uncle.

SPEAKER_05 3:59

So that's like you mentioned the other day, Cal about Strava Kudos. You know, people are out there chasing pace for Strata Kudos rather than just thinking about heart rate and just and just running a controlled way, or just or just feeling it, finding your RPE and just feeling it. Are we in feeling two out of ten? Am I four out of ten? Where should I be if I'm running aerobically and just rolling with that? Because pace is somewhat irrelevant. If you turn up to that session really tired, um, and you can't hit five minutes per K because that's what you always hit on the day, and then you get really frustrated and you stop and walk home, or you're having to work really hard for it and your heart rates through the roof, then you're totally defeating the purpose of an easy aerobic session. So it's uh it's it's nice to park the toys. Turn the watch over.

SPEAKER_00 4:49

It is. Well, I think that leads nicely into our topic today, which is all about sort of choosing your measurement, right? So today we're gonna talk about sort of the difference between RPE, heart rate, power, and when we should use these, when we should get the gear out, and and yeah, and when we should just leave it alone.

SPEAKER_05 5:10

Yeah. Well, the gear get the gear out. Yes. You know, they could don't read that out of context, right? Um listen to that out of context. It'd be pretty awkward. It's a bit awkward. The key thing here is I think really uh is utilizing things whenever we need to utilize them and also based on our experience level. And you know, what we've tried to do within our systems is is set up with the beginner stuff is just thinking about RPE and learning to feel things. And you know, a lot of people now will also have a heart rate watch as well, and so they've got a a watch which is them a heart rate off the optical sensor on the wrist, and that starts to give them a guide. And both of those are fantastic little place. And then I think as we level up and what we do, you know, getting a power meter or then getting a chest strap and getting a power meter is is the next step in the process, but I think it's not necessarily the first step in the process. I think the first step is real basic heart rate and RPE, and then leveling up from there. And and and I think we can all get carried away with investing too much in the toys. Where I'd actually rather see people investing in a program or uh you know investing in a nice comfy race suit before going out and investing in a whole lot of money in a power meter or you know a really ridiculous watch, which they probably don't use 90% of the features on, or a bike computer, which they do the same. So you know, I think it's relatable from that perspective. And then, you know, obviously it's then relates to what you want to achieve out of the sport. If you want to, you know, go big and achieve big, then you start to invest in all the toys and and look for the data that's going to be relevant and and really understand what you're doing.

SPEAKER_04 6:54

It's another thing as well to have the data and be able to interpret it and use it with your coach to actually refine your training. And I think one place that it does have a lot of use is just figuring out your zones. And it's one thing that we obviously do as well, where the start of each block we generally test and we figure out how fast we should be doing our sessions, especially bike and run. And I think it's it's a good sort of marker. It gives us our North Star of hey, am I biking too hard or not biking hard enough, and vice versa, because from our experience we see a lot of people sort of training too hard and leaving a lot on the table when it comes to the hard sessions. So the hardest sessions is what where we adapt and make the big gains. And if you're sort of stuck in no man's land doing everything just moderately hard, you're not recovering, but you're also not really improving. So um the data does have a good um place in training as well. And I guess I guess the one thing I see as well is um especially people I guess are overanalyzed overanalyse things and sort of can't keep out of their own way. It there's a lot that can go wrong as well on your power meter and also on your wristwatch. You know, there's updates, there's you know, the the constant chirping from GAM and are you being productive or not? And it could be conflicting to what your coach is actually telling you, and vice versa. So it's sort of trying to find the right place for it.

SPEAKER_05 8:25

Yeah, completely. I think that the term you hear is paralysis from analysis, and people just getting stuck in a really bad negative cycle because of the data they're seeing in front of them all the time. And you know, that's evolved a lot. I mean, Callum, when we started out, power meters were a pretty fancy thing that was pretty inaccessible. Um there's only one brand, SRM, out of Germany. Yep. Um remember the amount of loom kits we used to have lying around trying to fit them to the bikes. And uh Rob Creasy running around in circles with his being like a headless chicken trying to figure it all out. Um but you know, power meters were the first one, and now power's evolved into running as well. And we're seeing that, you know, we're getting a run power for an algorithm of your vertical oscillation, your cadence, and your pace there. And I think a really nice way to look at it is you know, power is your work done, but heart rate is the bill for that. You know, it's what you're gonna be invoiced at the end of it. And so you've got to retrain really honestly with that, and and we can go out really chasing these power numbers, whether it's on the bike or now on the run. But if you're taking no re um reference to the heart rate, you don't know the bill cost of that. And if your heart rate's through the roof for that given power or pace at that time, or you're running or riding well beyond your potential, you're gonna pay a massive bill. And you know, th that's gonna be checked and cashed in not often the day after, but probably two or three days after. Um and you're really gonna have f feel the cost of that.

SPEAKER_04 9:59

Yeah. Do we have any examples? Just thinking like top-level triathletes um who religiously swear by data, and others that don't, you know, that they don't use data at all, they just use RPE and that kind of thing.

SPEAKER_05 10:16

Well, I'm I remember the interview with Max Newman after actually after he won the T100 and I think it was Ibiza, where he cleaned up Frodo and Brownlee. And he just talked about parking, he just parked the numbers and went off field for a lot of summer. And he came out flying, absolutely flying. And that was a really good example of someone who he got paralyzed for a while by the data and information. He just needed to park it and put it away. And interestingly, with a couple of my athletes who who are trying to chase being pros in long course, we've actually turned off how asymmetric on their bike computers. So when they're racing and they can't see it. And they're just racing off heart rate and feel. And interestingly, with this one person, we saw a probably 10 to 15 watt increase in the power that she pushed through a race for turning off the data and her heart rate's barely changed.

SPEAKER_02 11:10

Um That's wild.

SPEAKER_05 11:12

It's gotta be psychological.

SPEAKER_02 11:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 11:19

And uh you've got to then think about the people who have come through and succeeded very, very well in the sport over the years without that technology that was there. You know, and you gotta think eat the New Zealand running background, for example, like we're only just seeing some of those records broken by Sam Ruth, who's a f who's a freak, he's a young freak. But all these records were set back in the day where you didn't have GPS, you didn't have power, you had a coach with a stopwatch and you were running around a track. Um and you just went for it. And it just it just shows that it's not necessary and can create a lot of paralysis and you can do a lot without it.

SPEAKER_04 11:58

Yeah. And when you got into Trithon, what did you find um from like an outside I guess an outsider's point of view at the start? What did you find? Um what was your sort of take on like bike power, for example?

SPEAKER_00 12:13

Yeah, well, I had no idea what I was doing, and I really felt like I just needed all of these things. So I like it's no secret. I have gone in pretty hard on the gadgets and the bike stuff and everything. Uh, but I I just felt like I I had to do this to be a triathlete. It seemed like I started and I was like, okay, I need a bike and some running shoes and a watch. But then within an instant, it was okay, but now I need the wahoo, I need this, I need a bike computer, I need to have power numbers set, and um, and it became so confusing. And particularly the swimming, um, because I was new to swimming and I really had no idea what I was doing, I bought a Garmin watch that would let me program the swims to the watch so that I could understand what I was supposed to do. And so that's how I learnt to swim, was that I the programs would come through my watch, it would buzz me when I had to go again. And so I was just, I didn't have to do any thinking. So I actually kind of feel like I'm learning to swim again now by like removing that feature. And um, and it's kind of nice, and I think that's been the difference for me is that I think I probably did go a bit hard down the gadget route when I don't need it. Um, like let's be real, I'm not overly competitive. Uh I'm not even really using the data the way that it's intended to be used. I just have it because I felt like I kind of needed it. And um, and I'm finding it now nicer just to do kind of the RPE stuff sometimes. Like today, when I did my run today, I didn't look at my watch at all. Like I didn't I turned all the buzzers off and I just went out and had a nice time. And it was it was good.

SPEAKER_05 14:01

There's another interesting thing here, Em, and everyone would have seen the amount of bikes you have in the background. And if I know a few of them have power meters. Have you ever looked at or considered the difference between each of those power meters, your trainer, your road bike, and your TT bike, and the percentage of change between them?

SPEAKER_00 14:20

Yeah, it's huge. So they are all not the same. Um and I only just learnt the other day that I need to keep calibrating my bike computer, so I haven't been doing that. So it's probably even completely out when I'm, you know, changing bikes. So so yeah, I can tell. Because uh I I struggle way harder on the trainer um to hit power numbers than I do outside. And I I don't feel like it's uh I'm a better rider outside. Uh I it's it's clearly just one of them is more accurate than the other.

SPEAKER_05 14:55

Yeah, I think I think the good point there is they're all probably accurate to a degree. Just the percentage of difference between them. Um, you know, if you're not being consistent using one power meter, then there's going to be a significant percentage of difference between them. And so when you're jumping on your trainer versus jumping outside, there could be up to a five to eight percent shift difference between them. And that could put you from riding in zone two to zone three if you're trying to hold the same power. And these are some of the risks that we see with technology, is that you know, in power and running is the same. You know, it can be really inconsistent and the jury's out and and how well it delivers on it, is that there's some big flaws in it, and if we don't understand the technology in depth, it can actually create more issues than maybe help us.

SPEAKER_00 15:43

So if we're racing outside and that's like the main driver, like should we really be setting our power numbers off inside riding? Like, or should you try and set your power numbers off the conditions that are most important?

SPEAKER_05 16:01

Well, it's an interesting one, Em, because in some regards, maybe we should make you do a 20-minute tower test indoors and outdoors.

SPEAKER_00 16:09

I've already done two another.

SPEAKER_05 16:12

See what the difference is.

SPEAKER_00 16:13

I would actually like to do an outdoor one. I've got a velodrome near me. Maybe I could do that, Tim.

SPEAKER_05 16:19

Yeah. And and that's another reason why a lot of people struggle to do a test outdoors, is because of the conditions in the environment and finding the right place. But if we really want to know the difference between our power meters, that's a really important step. And if we all really want to know where we might put our better power and put ourselves in a more dynamic environment, which is outdoors, then we need to know that. So if if people are going out and predicting race performance of just power meter data from the indoor trainer, they're gonna be they're gonna be miles out. So it's uh it is a really important thing to be looking at your power outside and then using that as a reference point for your races. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 17:01

Yeah. The power discrepancy is huge. So I I've seen it as well, just that paralysis by analysis where there'll be people that just can't wrap their heads around the fact that there could be a 20-30 watt difference between your trainer and what you're dealing with outside. But so long as it's consistent, uh, you should be able to figure out some reference points as well. So uh like Yem said, we're all gonna, you know, some of us might find the treadmill easier than running outside and vice versa. And the same with our trainers. So I I just think um the more you do hard accessions on both items um and both environments as well, you should start to develop a feel for hey, yeah, it is the the numbers are slightly different, but the numbers don't define you, they just govern you. Boom! So uh they're just there to guide you as well. So anyway, it's just something that we use. It's another thing in our toolbox. And um, I do like what you said though, Tim, where I do like covering up power meter sometimes and just racing the race, uh and just getting amongst it, get carried away and start to just get in tune with your body, how's your breathing? You know, how's everything feeling? Is this sustainable? And you might surprise yourself.

SPEAKER_05 18:22

Yeah, totally. And I think the other point there as well is how often do you hear of technology face uh failing out when you're racing? And then what have you got to go off? Like if you haven't taught yourself feel, you haven't taught yourself to understand your body, what this race pace should feel like, what you should be experiencing sensation-wise when you're delivering that pace, then you're actually really screwed when you're out in the middle of the race. Um it's like we've talked about as a job as a coach is to make yourself redundant so the athlete can deliver on race day. The athlete needs to also think about how they're gonna make themselves their technology redundant so they can still deliver on race day. Um, because things can go wrong, batteries die, things happen, and it's a r it's a really important skill. And it's it's a learnt skill. It's something we used to innately learn because we didn't have technology to rely on. So we used to go out and have to try and run a 400 meters and get the feedback at the end of the 400 and be like, that was too fast or too slow. And then we try again, then we try again, then maybe after five or six we'd start to nail the pace. Then we'd come back the week after and do that again. Where we we rely on technology like that, we don't actually get we don't get the feeling and experience of that pace so much because we're just looking at our watch for that consistent feedback. Yeah. So we lose that skill development. So I think it I'd encourage everybody to be going out and you know, rather roll their watch over and try sessions where they're learning to feel and giving themselves feedback on that at the end of the rep, much like you do at a swimming pool. You know, as you talked about the start cow, where you come and you look at the clock and you're like, oh cool, 1.30 on the bang. All right, off we go again, 1.30, good. And then you know, you might start to get out as you get more tired, and then you realise that your pacing's out. But it's a really important skill to have, really encourage that one to happen. And I I think you're a prime candidate here, Ian, right? Of of how we're living we're living this and how it also, I think I I don't know your experience there, I mean, and Cal, you'll chime in on this, but how it could change the enjoyment you get out of the sport.

SPEAKER_00 20:32

Yeah, a hundred. It I have been really enjoying my swims and my runs lately. And and to be honest, I was dreading them. I was I was dreading them at the end of my like as I was sort of heading into Husky, it was just hard. But now I I don't have the same sort of expectations. I think I'm more just in tune with what I'm doing, and I and it's yeah, it's feeling really nice. And the other thing that's been interesting, what what's been a little bit harder actually is that I've turned erg mode off on my trainer, on your advice, to because uh I can see that I'm getting lazy on the trainer. So I actually am not able to consistently push power at a nice sort of steady state. I it's it's a bit jerky and I need to work on it. And by having erg mode just continually adapt things for me is probably you know, it's not really helping me. So I've noticed a huge gap in my ability from a cycling point of view, and and just the last three sessions I haven't had erg mode on, and I'm just gonna keep it off for all of them now. And I think it's helping. Way more engaged. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 21:46

Cal, I know you're the opposite. You're a bit of an erg mode fan. Tell us about that.

SPEAKER_04 21:50

Yes. So what I I'll do a lot of my hard stuff uh on the trainer just for safety. And I know I I like the fact. Fact that I can put my head down, I just look at my bottom bracket, my cranks, and just try to focus on that. I'm in touch with my cadence the whole time. So I'm very big on just trying to maintain my cadence sort of between 75 to 90, usually around 80, 85. And I can tell, I mean, I've been doing it long enough, I can tell when I'm grinding versus when I've got a good flow state going on, or if it's too fast and it becomes, you know, uh just too draining as well. So I I do it a lot for just safety. I like just being on the bars and just thinking the time away while you're doing a session. And then um, so yeah, I'm big, big on erg mode, but different horses are different courses. And um, you know, like if M's newer to triathlon and she's trying to work on a smoother cadence, I can totally see a a time and a place for that as well. Yeah, nice.

SPEAKER_05 22:54

And I think that's a really important point that you bring to the table there, Carol's. There's a time and place for everything. You know, and you know, when we might be dialing into some other key sessions, we want to really just narrow the power, then erg mode might become really important. It might be really helpful just to get in and now that session and and walk away feeling like you've completed it and narrowed it well, rather than using the session as a learning experience. Then other times we're shifting out of that and we're starting to experience things in a different way and and dialing in that way. And I think we've got to look at that in terms of how we use technology across the board. You know, where are the times that we can learn and where are the times we want to dial in and recognise the use of technology for each of those.

SPEAKER_04 23:35

I will say there's nothing more humbling than being locked into erg mode and you're starting to fail and um you're you're not quite holding the power, and Zwift is yelling at you, and you're like, I've given it everything, Captain. And um, and then you go from like an 80k down to 30 and then it deactivates erg mode because it feels sorry for you.

SPEAKER_03 24:00

It's like the eject button, isn't it, where it just deactivates erg mode. Yeah, it's like it's time to tap out here, mate. You've like done one rep too many. But um yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:09

So let's talk about like how external things impact us though. Like I can always tell like a massive difference um in my heart rate and my ability to do things when it's hot or when I've had too many coffees and and that sort of jazz. So how does that all work in guys?

SPEAKER_05 24:33

Yeah, we've got to look at remember heart rate's a stress response, and everything we're adding in here is a stressor, like caffeine, you know, can create as an extra bump in your heart rate. So you're gonna see some lifts there. Okay, it's it's increasing your sympathetic drive. You know, poor sleep, poor life stress, or say the cold, we can see similar um heat. Yeah, your skin and blood flow is completing with the working muscles as well. So we'll see an increase there. And that's you know, in indoor training sessions, often we're experiencing that, right? We're dealing with the heat. Um so often we have the fans to try and figure that out. You know, so we are working through a whole lot of things here, and you do need to take into account when you're doing sessions, like how how am I managing myself and how the external factors are driving me. You know, and if power is normal but heart rate's eight to twelve beats higher than where it should sit, the potty is actually probably telling you something. And looking at, you know, you've got to back that off and investigate why those could be. You know, and caffeine's obviously is can have a really positive effect on sessions as well. But if you've over caffeinated, um it can go the other way. And and often what we see is people who have had poor sleep or people really tired, dip in for the old quad shot, you know, and try to put two shots in each leg of caffeine and try ramp it up. And you're probably coupling the poor sleep with the caffeine and going to see an increase in that sympathetic drive and and see a real increased heart rate for the power outputs. Now and I think you know, we we also got to realise here too that if we go back to heat, heat's a really topical conversation at the moment. Um people are training with a lot more intent for coping with heat. There's a lot of sessions, and you see these people out in boiler suits, they look like they've just come out of COVID-19 and jumped on a bicycle, you know, and then they're then training for an event and they're getting some really good gains out of it. But you are going to see your heart rate increase through that, and it's gonna take adaptation for you to get back to the power numbers you used to hold at that same heart rate. So don't be really frightened if you see that happening, especially if you're new to the sport, you're jumping in a train, you're indoors, you don't have a fan, and you're seeing some decoupling happen where your your your heart rate's just drifting up to try and maintain the same power, the heat could have a real big effect on you. And hydration and cooling strategies through that can be really important. Um, if you're new to indoor training and not training specifically for heat work, um you really take that into account.

SPEAKER_04 27:04

I'll say we do quite a bit of running and riding indoors, and we've got a lovely big air conditioning unit that blows on us. Uh Elise also hogs a fan, so she's even better. She's even getting like a better, I guess, adaption. One thing I will notice is I I feel like my heart rate is about 10 to 15 beats lower when I'm inside and it's nice and cool. Uh versus outside when it's humid here in Queensland, um, it's hot and just uncomfortable. It just it better caters, you know, you could arguably get through a harder session a bit more comfortable when you've got this nice cool air blowing on you. So I did notice in Lionel Sanders' videos, he does reference that as well. He has an AC unit blowing down on him, and sometimes it can lead you to a false sense of security as well. You are able to maybe push a little bit more. There's pros and cons to that too. So um, and maybe it's something you reassess if you're training for a hot race, if you really need that, um, or what you're trying to achieve.

SPEAKER_05 28:06

Yeah, I think that's super important there, actually, Carol. Is that yeah, it's like the technology question. You know, you've got to decide where you're gonna use these stimulus changes within your program to make sure you're actually coming out on top in the race. And you know, if you're really trying to attack some key sessions and it's hot outside, go inside and nail them off. You need to prepare for the heat, get out into the heat and build yourself up and build your capacity in the heat. Um strategies are important and we really you've got to really plan now how you're gonna put those into place, otherwise you'll probably um stitch yourself up. You'll probably stitch yourself up and leave yourself wanting come race day.

SPEAKER_00 28:48

Yep. Yeah. I couldn't believe the heat thing. Um when I trained for Kona, I did the whole hazmat suit, heat air conditioner blowing on me on the trainer. And it was it was something else. I just I just could not push power under those conditions. I've never felt more unwell doing anything. It's um it really, really, it really takes a toll. Even actually, the first one that I did, um, I did the session and then I was just I was extremely unwell after the session. But I think like I already had like a bit of a flu and doing that heat session just did something to my body where it just shut down. I was just yeah, really sick after that. But um, yeah, it's no joke. Hey, like it's rough.

SPEAKER_05 29:34

Yeah, it's rough stuff. And you know, people using it now to as the poor man's altitude. So looking for those extra stresses, even if they're not training for a hot race. So it's uh it's becoming so much more common, but we do have to be really careful with how we apply it and and how we structure that around our other sessions.

SPEAKER_00 29:51

Well, that's a wrap. But if you want to keep the conversation going, come find us on Instagram at cartel.coaching. And for coaching camps and community, you can check out our webpage. I've linked it in the show notes. See you next time.