Best First Issue

What's the best first comic issue EVER? Jake Williams and Dave Wielgosz debate whether its either Department of Truth #1 or Ex Machina #1. Who will Jake Thomas decide is right? 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to Superlative, the show where comics go head to head. Every episode we pick a superlative theme. This week, for our first episode, it is best first issue. Two of our editors each nominate a comic they think deserves the title, then step into the ring to make their case. When the arguments are done, our moderator delivers the final verdict deciding which comic walks away with this episode's superlative. For this episode, our contestants are to my left, Dave Wilgis. Dave, say hello.

SPEAKER_03 0:34

Hey there, how you doing? My name is Dave Wilgis. I'm a contract editor here at IDW and a freelance comic book writer. To my right are number two, Jake Williams.

SPEAKER_01 0:44

Jake, introduce yourself. Hey, what's up? I'm Jake Williams. I'm the editor of Godzilla at IDW. And my first issue is the issue I have with Dave Wilgis.

SPEAKER_00 0:52

And I'm Jake Thomas, the senior group editor here, uh overseeing Turtles, Godzilla, Sonic, various other odds and ends. But that's enough malarkey. It's time to get down to business.

SPEAKER_01 1:05

Uh, Dave, you were saying about something evil you did before we started recording.

SPEAKER_03 1:09

I was saying I'm very excited to be here, very excited to talk about both of these comic books. God, I think I drank yours by mistake. Is that straight vodka?

SPEAKER_01 1:17

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Jeez, man. It's a little early, but like camera mixture. Yeah. I'm all good now. Yeah. Um, Dave, you were saying that you've worked with you're getting a little ahead of the horse here, but you worked with James quite a bit.

SPEAKER_03 1:34

I've worked with James. I was at DC uh comics as an editor uh mainly for the Batman books for almost 10 years. And I would say James is one of the three creators I worked with the most. We worked on two weekly comics together, uh, pretty much always. Uh we worked on a comic book that came out twice a month for a long time. And then towards the end of my time, he was writing both the ongoing Batman and ongoing joker titles. So we I've never worked with him on any creator-owned stuff. I've read a lot of his creator owned stuff, and I'm quite fond of it. Uh, but yeah, I have I have a very deep uh uh working relationship with James.

SPEAKER_01 2:09

And how do you think he feels about you?

SPEAKER_03 2:11

Uh I mean, it probably depends on the day. Okay. You know, no, we uh he he's always been very kind to me. He's one of the nicest people in comics, on top of being one of this generation's best writers, and I couldn't be more happy for his success. How he feels about my success, I don't know. Mostly because I don't have a lot yet, but you know, in time.

SPEAKER_01 2:29

Dave has a funny thing where every single person who works in comics who has worked with Dave, like just like obsessed with him. Like he has a portfolio of like free art people have given him, and it's like huge. It's like a hundred pages of art, which uh I I don't I don't find that I have the same effect on all my creators. I don't know. They're not giving me as much free stuff.

SPEAKER_00 2:50

Yeah, it's uh is that an appeal to your like by the way.

SPEAKER_01 2:53

That's what I kind of thought this would be about.

SPEAKER_03 2:57

People do kind of look at me and they go, I really need to like step in. One time, this is a true story. I worked on um uh Dark Knight 3 at DC, which was an awesome project, and uh all the creators came in and do like a signing, and I worked on the book as an editor, so I felt like a Dark Knight 3D. Yeah, you really missed the opportunity. Uh, but like I didn't do go to the signing because oh I can't go to the signing because I edited the book. And then at the end of the signing, uh Andy Kubert, one of my favorite combo artists of all time, came up to me with a hard cover. He was like, Hey man, we we made sure we signed one for you because you're because you're awesome. And I was like, This is so nice.

SPEAKER_01 3:32

Do you think they noticed you like leering at the kids that were leaving leaving the line?

SPEAKER_03 3:36

I was like in the corner, like Sneagle, like, I can't have line!

SPEAKER_01 3:40

Oh, that comic looks really nice. Oh, Andy Kubert's actually my favorite artist.

SPEAKER_03 3:45

We need to we need to be careful about how many times I compliment people on this podcast because the point is to Yeah, Renan, can you edit in a big dinger on a tiny comic? The point is to look at their work critically, so I can't just be like, oh, that person's real nice and they were sweet to me one time.

SPEAKER_01 3:58

Yeah, well, what speaking of the work we gotta look at critically, you want to set us up with the work we're looking at critically?

SPEAKER_00 4:04

Uh I can. Uh, but I mean, really, you guys should do this. But before we do it, I think maybe we sort of set the table a little bit and talk about what makes a good first issue. Because here we're we're proffering what we think the best first issues of comics are going to be. So uh, you know, I'll start. I think um a good first issue, you want to really set the table while also providing a little bit of mystery, making your readers really excited and curious to see what's going to come next. Um what do you guys think?

SPEAKER_01 4:39

I think that I've always said is like uh especially something you start thinking about as you start like making comics, is like the promise of the book that you're creating, right? Like the promise of the premise of the book. So, for example, if it's a book about Superman, the promise there is that he's gonna put his outfit on and fly around and fight bad guys. And if you're making like a new original superhero comic, uh, there can be sort of a, you know, you might want to start the beginning, which might be before they get their powers, and maybe you in the first issue when they get their powers, but then that doesn't fully deliver on the promise of the premise, where it's a superhero comic, I want to see someone fighting bad guys. So for me, it's delivering on that promise of the premise, uh, setting up the characters, setting up the world, and leaving the reader with an implication or a hook of what's to come. So we have an idea and can get excited for what the rest of the series is going to be after we finish that first issue.

SPEAKER_03 5:33

Yeah, I think that's really well said by both of you guys. For me, uh, I put it into two different categories. Like if it's a superhero book, like an ongoing superhero book that's has has a new run. From a first issue, I want the creative team to show me that they understand uh the character and they get how the character works, usually for the first half or the first part of the issue. Then in the second half of the issue, I want you to tell me what you're gonna put this character through. What's the journey, what's the mission, like um, you know, whether it's like, hey, we're gonna tear this superhero team apart or like we're gonna reveal this character's secret identity and ruin their life. Like, you know, show me you know what the character works, and then how are you gonna break them and put them back together? But for like a creator owned comic or an original comic, two of which we're gonna talk about today, you need to like show me the characters, show me the world, and then show me what the promise of this book is. Like, what are you what are you trying to say about the whole story? And in part, like what's this story have to do with like the world we're living in right now?

SPEAKER_00 6:28

I also think what's important in a first issue is surprise. And that's something where you talk about the promise of the premise, which you absolutely need to deliver on. But I also think we live in this world where in order to hype people up for a comic, we tell them all about it. We say, Oh, this is what's gonna happen here, and this is why it's cool, and this is why you should buy it. But then the problem is people buy it and they get exactly what you've told them. Uh the great writer Kieran Gillen wrote a blog post once about how to write a great uh first issue. And one of the things he says is you have, you know, your your uh conceit and then you have your surprise. So you have your conceit, which is I I think he wrote this around the time of Wicked and Divine. So you've got gods that come back every uh uh 60 years, was it, I think? Um, and uh they have powers, they take over pop stars, they become these great uh uh incredible cultural forces, and then they die. Uh and then in the first issue, he lays all that out beautifully, you get to know the characters, you really get to understand who they are, what the deal is, but then at the end, there's a murder. And the actual sort of thing that's pulling you through to the second issue is something that's not stated in all of that promo material, but it is this murder mystery. Um and I think surprise is something that really um makes a great comic and a great story on every level, and it's never more important than in that first issue. You want something that the readers are going to be shocked by, taken aback by, uh uh again, because what you really want is them to go through into that second issue. So finding a good surprise, finding a good thing that that uh they're not gonna see coming. Very important.

SPEAKER_01 8:08

Yeah, there's nothing better at the end of a first issue, especially a good one that you already were liking, uh ending on a twist that like recontextualizes the whole book for you and that pulls the rug out from under you, and you're like, Well, I can't believe they're going this direction. I can't believe they've done this. Like leaving the reader so behind where you're at instead of ahead of you, where they're like, I don't know how you're gonna write your way out of this. I don't know how you're going to possibly answer this question you propose. So I have no choice but to continue to read this comic and watch as you kind of string me along here.

SPEAKER_03 8:39

Yeah. And I would say, not to like jump ahead, but like I think both of these comics we're talking about like end on like a high wire act where it's like, good luck, you know, like I hope you can pull this off.

SPEAKER_01 8:50

Cause like And that's what you say when you read it.

SPEAKER_03 8:53

Yeah, good luck.

SPEAKER_01 8:55

I'd like to see you try to deliver on the series.

SPEAKER_03 8:57

But there should be that level of risk, right? Like, there should be a little bit of like, man, I really hope you don't fall on your face, you know. Like, you know, like take a big swing, take a big risk, and like, you know, like really commit to it. Um, you know, and I think that's the other part of the surprise, is like uh some people, some a lot of people would be like, oh, well, you know, maybe a surprise is cheap. And it's like, for me, it's like I just don't I think you just don't want to give people something to like live up to. You don't want to give yourself something to live up to with that surprise. Um, and that's something we can talk about as we get into these, but like, yeah, I think that the word we use the most often in the office is hook, right? Like, what are you gonna hook me with? How are you gonna keep me here? Um, and I think both of these comics have pretty darn good hooks.

SPEAKER_00 9:39

Well, let's talk about those comics and the hooks therein. Dave, we'll start with you. What is your submission for best first issue?

SPEAKER_03 9:47

My submission for best first issue is X Machina number one, originally published by Wildstorm, uh, a subsidiary of DC Comics, written by Brian K. Vaughn, uh penciled by uh Tony Harris. Uh, and the comic follows uh the new mayor of New York, circa 2002, uh Mitchell Hundred, who was formerly the superhero known as the Great Machine, whose power was he could talk to machines, and he also had visions of elaborate sci-fi machinery that he would get in his sleep and then build those things like uh ray guns and uh uh jet packs, and we kind of find out how his superhero life dovetailed into his political career in this first issue.

SPEAKER_00 10:29

All right, great setup. Let's go over to Jake. Your number one.

SPEAKER_01 10:32

Yeah, so for my number one, I brought The Department of Truth by James Tynan and Martin Simmons. And this comic is absolutely one of my favorite books of all time, and it is a comic that from that first issue, like it just like hooked me, it sunk its teeth into me, it just had me gripped. And it is a book that, you know, as a comics fan, I feel like there's down months, there's weeks that maybe I'm not as interested or going to the comic shop with as much vigor. And this book, whenever it is out, I'm so excited. It's really like kept me in and interested in comics. And it's a book that came out while I was working at a comic shop, and it is the easiest book in the world to hand sell because its premise is just so hooky and so fantastic. And that premise is it's set in a world uh it's basically it's X-files, but in a world where collective belief shapes reality. So if enough people believe that the earth is flat, it starts to flatten out. So they're able to affect reality. And we follow the American organization, basically the propaganda unit in this world called the Department of Truth, and we watch as they try to basically like snuff out these more dangerous or radical beliefs before they start to affect reality in too big of a way. So when we first meet our character Cole Turner, he's this FBI agent that is investigating like kind of like uh right-wing online meme bros, like the far-right conspiracy theorists who have met up at this flat earther convention. And while he's there, he gets taken up into a plane and they show him that the earth is flat because in that moment enough people in that plant plane believed it enough that it was able to affect reality and show him that. Uh, they also have a fun bit in that first issue where they show him an alternate angle of the moon landing where he was able to see that there was like an extra in one of the shots. But it so it just instantly like delivers on this premise in such a fun and fantastic way as we follow this new agent that enters into this organization and has to kind of like, you know, there's some issues where they're out in the woods because uh Bigfoot is starting to like become more real and they're having more sightings, and they have to like stop that. There's some issues where they're in the Denver airport because all those conspiracy theories about that airport are starting to become true, and they have to just like basically like cut it out at its root and stop it from happening.

SPEAKER_00 12:49

Alright, those are contestants, contenders, if you will. Um you may note neither of those are IDW comics. Now we made a rule: no IDW comics in this. We're all about looking outward. This isn't gonna be hawking material to you. We got plenty of great books at IDW. You want a great first issue? Look at the catalog. We got tons of them. We're generous, we're benevolent, and we're looking to give.

SPEAKER_01 13:19

We're biased free. We have no bias. You can't be bought. You can't bias with paychecks, all right? That's not enough.

SPEAKER_03 13:25

As I mentioned uh at the top of the podcast, I'm a freelancer and I can be bought.

SPEAKER_01 13:29

You can be bought purchased really easily. For a lower price than you think. You can have that guy.

SPEAKER_00 13:40

So we've laid out sort of what these books are. And let's talk about how they do what they do. So we'll start again with uh ex Machina here. What is it about the way Brian Kavon and Tony Harris built this first issue that hooked you, that made you say you had to buy issue number two? What how did they craft it that made it so great for you?

SPEAKER_03 14:11

It's really a comic that pulls no punches. It is like very wonderfully put together. It's it's it's subtle in certain ways, but like it doesn't hide anything. It it puts everything on front street. Like on the first page, the character introduces himself to you. Mitchell Hundred says, My name is Mitchell Hundred from 2002 to 2005. I was the mayor of New York City and it ended terribly. This story is a tragedy. This story does not end well. I was a superhero, I was the mayor of New York, and both of those things went bad.

SPEAKER_01 14:44

Talk about that for one second. That's something I love when a comic or any piece of media does because it mirrors like how you tell a story to your friend. Where you don't just say, like, like if I walk up to you and you were like, and I was like, at night, Gotham City, Batman swings across. What are you telling me? I'm like, oh, sorry, I'm telling you a story about the time that Joker stole a bunch of laughing gas and infected the water supply. You know, like that is how we naturally tell stories is we give some like introductory statement, some like brief synopsis, this idea of like, Dave, I'm gonna tell you a story about X. So, like, starting with, hey, here is it's a tragedy of my five years as mayor, is uh I think a great way to begin. Yeah, it's it's excellent. But also you have a bad choice, and I'm right.

SPEAKER_03 15:24

And in the comic, like it couldn't be more direct, and like you could you could accuse it of being a little cute. The first issue is really called pilot, which is double because you know it's the first issue, your pilot issue, but also Mitchell Hunter, the great machine, was a guy who flew around with a jet pad. Yeah, make a note of that. A little cute. Yeah, little cute, right? And you know, the the something that like I think only a guy as as well as who was a good writer like Brian K. Long can pull off also opens with a definition of what ex machine means, God from the machine, something that comes down in a story and kind of solves all these problems sort of fantastically, which is what he does. Um, and we kind of we, you know, he tells us this is gonna end poorly, and then we see the early, like him very early in his days as mayor, and how you know this guy is in he was an independent candidate who won New York, and he's not like he's a bit of a clumsy politician. You're kind of like, this guy's not you know, all like polished, you know, you're like this guy's a little rougher on the edges. Like, how'd this happen?

SPEAKER_01 16:23

You know, like sorry, I'm just remembering, and you like this book so much because you're an independent politically right now, and we can get it on the record.

SPEAKER_00 16:34

No, sir. So you're waiting to be bought.

SPEAKER_03 16:37

I'm I'm open to be botical as well. The midterms are coming up, and I'm worried about it. What can you do for day? What can you do for day?

SPEAKER_01 16:45

You got your red cardigan in your mind. Whatever whatever he was wearing.

SPEAKER_03 16:48

We jump in and we meet Mitchell Hundred at a press conference, and it's clearly like, okay, this guy is the mayor of New York. He's not very polished, but what we learned is like, okay, he was the superhero called the Great Machine, who, as I said earlier, his main power was he could talk to machines and he could build these fantastic machines, the visions of which came to him in his sleep. And the whole time you're like, man, like what was the thing that really pushed this guy over the top? And what we learn at the end of the first issue is uh this is a New York, this is a bit of an alternate history book where in this New York City, uh on 9-11, the first tower came down, and then the great machine Mitchell Hundred used his powers to stop the second plane from taking down tower two. And that's what really propelled him to becoming the mayor of New York City. And this is in 2004, this book comes out. This is three years after 9-11. Uh, you know, I was very young when all this happened, but like I was old enough to feel how like America was changing, and especially in those first couple years after 9-11, how like in art and media, especially, we didn't know how to talk about it yet. We didn't know what we were allowed to talk about. I even remember the first episode of SNL when they came back, where they were like, Are we allowed to be funny? And Rudy Giuliani, now the funniest man on earth, came out and told us we were allowed to have fun, which was great. But, you know, being a really young teenager when this book came out, like this it felt like a little dangerous for this to be the hook, but it also felt cathartic because you know you're living within like the like we're calling French fries freedom fries era of America. We don't know what we're talking about, we don't know if what we're being told is the truth every day on the news about like you know, invading the Middle East, and like this comic felt honest and cathartic. And again, like I'd been reading superhero comics, and now was this comic that had like elements of superhero stuff, but also was like very political and felt like a little bit of the superhero stuff I liked, a little bit of the West Wing, which I loved watching with my mom when I was a kid, and like it has like a really bitter punch. Like, Mitchell Hundred's not a likable guy, he is he makes no qualms, and it gets worse throughout the series. Like, he is no longer a superhero, he is a politician, and there's some stuff he does in this first issue that is like kind of nasty in retrospect. Like he threatens a political opponent, he uses his powers for his own personal gain. Uh, and all the other characters, particularly his two closest friends, Kremlin and Bradbury, are like, no man, you're a superhero. And he's like, I'm not a superhero, I'm the mayor of New York City. And at first, you're like, Oh, that's like a responsibility thing. Like, he's being a responsible adult. And then you kind of go along and you're like, no, this guy's like a he's a politician for all the good and bad that comes with that uh uh title and identity. But I buried the little bit lead a little bit, really that that the knockout punch of this issue is that big reveal that in this version of the world, the second tower is still standing, uh, and Rudy Giuliani was no longer the mayor of New York.

SPEAKER_01 19:51

One thing I like about that twist that I feel like they kind of earned that twist is like throughout the issue, like you may be thinking about it, you may not, because obviously anyone that's uh living in the States that sees like those dates starts to be like, no, wait a second. So, like the book, as we're in the multiple timelines, one of the timelines is each time we jump back to it is getting closer and closer to September 11, 2001. So, like as we're inching forward in that timeline, and we know something happens that propels him, his career about like six, seven months after that, you know, uh to become mayor about six, seven months after that, like it really is like, oh, that's what happens. Like the twist feels so earned because of the way that they're kind of setting uh the different game pieces on the board throughout the issue.

SPEAKER_03 20:35

And it speaks to like how like well put together the comic is because at the time, like I said, like part of it was a little bit taboo and a little bit like, are you allowed to do that? But today, having reread it, you're just like, this is just a really well-constructed piece of work. And I think that's always like the the line we walk when we take risks like this, right? It's like, is this gonna age well? Is this gonna age poorly? And more often than not, you just have to roll the dice and hope that your heart's in the right place. And thankfully, I think with this book, its heart very much was because like to me anyway, the ending doesn't come off like salacious or opportunist or gross. It's just like, whoa, this is interesting. And what's this gonna mean for this world moving forward?

SPEAKER_01 21:14

It's funny because I first read, and I haven't read all of Ex Machina, I first read uh it's kind of like the Brian Kavon book that I feel like I'm like saving for myself for later.

SPEAKER_03 21:21

But I would love to talk about it too in a bit.

SPEAKER_01 21:23

Yeah. And I when I was reading that book, I think I read it for the first time like last year. It's funny though, because I assume at the time he's 2004 is when the first issue came out. Like, if you're talking about the mayor of New York City, you're naturally just already on your mind is probably terrorism, how the cities responded. Like that's just such a that's so interconnected. But reading it 15, 20 years later, you know, uh, it's it's it it's not on the forefront of my mind when I was reading that book. So when you get to the end of it and you find out that it's in conversation with nine eleven, I was like, whoa, you know, like I uh unexpected. I didn't I wasn't thinking of that direction really, you know. Uh and and and what I was saying earlier that almost happened for me in retrospect, whereas it would be like, oh, they were counting down to it. It was moving towards that uh moment happening.

SPEAKER_03 22:09

Yeah, and I think you hit on part of the reason why I picked it, which is because which is a well, I I part of why I picked it was because we just kind of had like maybe one of the most uh noted and and and countrywide watched New York mayor elections ever, with uh the election of uh Mayor Zoran Mandani. So I was definitely thinking about like New York City mayor ex mach, and I was like, it'd be a good time to reread this, but also this is one of my favorite comic books of all time, but I have not reread it uh in a very, very long time. And of Brian K. Von's works, which he has many major works, this is the one uh that like I have not thought about as much in the last couple years because all the other ones either have continued in some way, like Runaways is a Marvel comic, so there's often a new volume of it, or with Why The Last Man, there was a TV show, Paper Girls, there was a TV show, and that came out a little bit more recently. Saga is still ongoing, but like Ex Machina is this work that like is complete and does not exist other places. There's been talk of doing a movie with Oscar Isaac, which I think is great casting for Mitchell Hundred, but the the comic is it. The story starts and stops with this comic book. So, in some ways, like it's it it's gone away a little bit. And I and I intend to reread it anyway. But when this opportunity came up, I was like, oh, this is great for me to reread. I knew I was gonna pick a Brian K. Vaughn comic because he, when I was growing up, was the master of the number one issues in three years. In 2002, he wrote Why the Last Man, which is another hell of a first issue. 2003 writes the first issue of Runaways, another stellar first issue with a great um cliffhanger, and then 2004 writes this. And this one, I don't think he could have written without those other two, because this is an incredibly confident comic book. Like, I don't think you you can do this unless you've written a couple others and like really hit home runs on some other stuff. If this was someone's first comic, I would be alarmed.

SPEAKER_01 23:57

Let me put it that way. It's it's funny with with X Machina and his other work, like it does, I think, a bit get overshadowed by the other work. Like, and that's not a judgment of quality in any way. It's just like, you know, saga became saga, which especially in the 2010s was just like the biggest thing in the world. You know, it was the biggest comic ever. Like you'd go to people's house and uh houses, and actually a thing that I've heard uh James Tynan talk about before is the idea of like the one-shelf comic book reader, you know, and it's someone who they don't consider themselves a comic book reader, they might think they only have graphic novels, they might not they might have ever stepped foot in a comic book store, but on their regular shelf of books, there exists one shelf of graphic novels or trade paperbacks, and for the longest time, like on that shelf, you know, you're gonna see mouse, you're gonna see Watchmen, you're gonna see books like that, you're gonna see maybe a couple oddballs. And for the last 10 years, you're gonna see saga on that shelf. Like every single time you're gonna see saga on that shelf. And then I think Paper Girls was a book that kind of rode the success of the post-Brian K-Von saga. So that's a book that I think people really talk about, and people who got into comics when I got into comics, you know, really know him as the saga and the paper girls guy, and then Why the Last Man I Found. But like Ex Machina was never never came off the shelf for me. It wouldn't was never one that like was thrust into my hands, even know even being such a fan of Brian K-Von's work.

SPEAKER_03 25:17

Yeah, I mean, for me, like, you know, full disclosure, like I did not read this first issue when it came out. Like, I was starting to read comics, I was starting to get into monthly stuff, and then I got the first uh couple trades, and then I was so obsessed with the book that I had to start reading an issue because I didn't want to wait six months for each volume anymore. Uh and we talked a little, we've talked a lot about Brian K. Von, but I also want to highlight the art by Tony Harris, who's the penciler. Um, and and the uh uh uh I should take that again, and I want to be the one to say that.

SPEAKER_01 25:49

Let's run that back. We talk about a lot with Brian K. Von, but Tony Harris, the pencil.

SPEAKER_03 25:54

Tony Harris the Pencler, who his other major work uh in the 90s was Star Man with James Robinson, a brilliant piece of work. He is the penciller of this comic book, and like, man, his work on this book with his art team uh is just fantastic. And it's also it was also so perfect for this time in American comics and American superhero comics because we're a couple years removed from Brian Hitch uh starting ultimates, and there is a new second wave obsession with like hyper-realism in superhero comics. Like the the more realistic a superhero comic is, the better. And this comic being as realistic as it is, and like the way he worked with models and took photographs of people to draw this comic book in a really artful and beautiful way, it's just like a total slam dunk with the material. Like, and to this day, I when I was flipping the comics today, I was like, wow, you know, not only the line art, um, but the inking and the coloring, nothing else looks like this right now. Like, this is such a again, a book of its moment in a great way, but also just like it's so unique and specific while feeling of a uh a moment in in time, history-wise.

SPEAKER_01 27:02

Yeah, it's funny that it's the only one that as you were saying with like paper girls and saga hasn't been adapted either. But it's uh not being adapted is funny because it just feels so ready to just jump onto NBC and be like new heroes, you know. Like you can just really see it making that jump, and it feels like that type of story. It's grounded enough that it can speak to that wider audience. You know, like I'd see my parents enjoying that story in a way that Invincible might be harder for them to get into.

SPEAKER_00 27:28

I also want to hit on what you said about confidence, because I do think something that really staggered me when I went back and reread it for the show was how fast that thing moves and how much information he just gets across immediately while not feeling like he's sitting down and telling you information. The amount of stuff that happens in that first issue, you're introduced to this character you don't know, you get his back you get his origin story of, you know, finding the alien device with he's trolling or whatever, you get him his superhero career and the beginning of his time as a politician. That for a lot of people would be arc one into arc two of a book. It's so much it and then it feels fast, but it never feels overburdened. It never feels heavy or weighty or laggy. Um pacing wise, it's extraordinary.

SPEAKER_01 28:26

And that brings us to something we noticed as we were going over these first issues is that both of them are 30 pages. Where people might not know like a standard comic book is 20 to 22 pages, where you know, these books, part of the reason they're able to have these really meaty, great introductions of the characters is they're they're oversized, they have that extra space to work with to like fully deliver that like unit of story that getting all that across in 20 pages is gonna feel pretty hard, you know. Um, I feel like there's a world where if that was a 20-page book, like instead of it would be two issues, right? You'd have to take the full 40 pages to get that information across. But one thing I want to get into with it's funny with Brian K. Vaughn as we're talking about these other people, I mean these other books he's worked on, is I gotta say, I reread uh Why the Last Man and Saga last night, and I I don't I don't know if this is the best Brian K. Vaughn first issue. I think Why the Last Man is quite possibly like, I mean, if I had to if I picked a second, I mean Why the Last Man's right up there with my first pick. Like, it is an incredible introduction of the world, you know. Like, that's another book where it has a promise of the premise. It's what if all of the men disappeared? And one thing I like about that book that I feel like uh shares ground with like uh eight billion genies from a few years ago, which is what would happen if everyone got their own genie is that book, like it does your fantasizing for you. It asks this question, this this big uh idea that you could sit around and daydream about and talk about to your friends, and it's gonna hold your hand, it's gonna walk you through what it might actually look like if that were to happen and give you this like almost realistic depiction. And what Brian K. Vaughn does so, so well in that book is he focuses on all the best moments. Like he has that montage when all the men are dying, and it is it answers every question you'd have about that moment. Like, what happened to the pilots? Like if an airplane's happening, you know, oh wait, that means the Pope. Yep, it cuts to that. Oh, but that would include this. It cuts to it, you know. Um, it has this also this really brilliant thing about that book is you know, there's there might be this like dumb guy idea of like, well, with all the men, though, the world wouldn't function. And a couple of those panels where they do really well is like it cuts to like this big women's soccer game and has like the man as the ref dying. I thought that's like a really subtle way to like answer that question like, hey, no, like women are already doing these jobs. We have women around that are going to be like taking the banner and moving forward with uh with the world, you know.

SPEAKER_03 30:46

Yeah, and uh again, shout out to Pia Guerra who drew the absolute hell out of the issue. I agree that issue is fantastic. But here's now here's you actually flagged something that I thought was actually the problem with that issue, which is why I didn't pick it. Whoa. What's the second twist? Whoa. I don't think that book has a twist because it is it's about why the last man, it's about the last man on earth. Yeah, I think the thing that is successful is like how aggressively well done the concept is executed because there's no secondary reveal. Yeah, you know, like so, and and that was part of my calculus when picking Ex Machina. Uh, because again, and then this also gets another thing where hey, maybe sometimes you don't always need that secondary twist, but like both of these books have that, and it's it's so powerful. And then why has a lot of questions that are answered and come up during the series, so it gets there, but like I think the strength of why is like it just knocks the knocks it out of the damn park, executing its premise, but it doesn't have like a actually there's two last spending.

SPEAKER_00 31:44

So does he not meet what's her name at the end of that first is it's been a long time since I wrote that book. I don't need the agent.

SPEAKER_01 31:51

We see the agent, but it doesn't meet the agent. I wouldn't call that a twist though. Now, what I will say about it is I think it's a different type of story that doesn't necessarily need a secondary twist because it sets up what the adventure is going to be so well, where the the twist is that he has to get to Australia, right? The twist is that he has to travel across this world to get to Beth. To get to Yeah, and then the other part of it too that's that's incredible is I really love how it sets up these little possible things of like, wait, is that what caused it? Like it has that woman who's wearing the necklace, and she's like, if this necklace comes off my neck, my father told me the world with it. It comes up.

SPEAKER_03 32:27

It sets up a ton of intrigue. It's a ton of things.

SPEAKER_01 32:29

So I don't think it needs that. Like honestly, like it's the exception that maybe proves the rule in some ways, but it is it is an exception. Yeah, because I do not think it's hurt at all by not having a secondary twist.

SPEAKER_03 32:41

But I think it's worth talking about because of the topics where we're like, you know, you need that, you need that. No, you're right.

SPEAKER_01 32:45

It's worth talking about. Um that brings me to my issue with with ex Machina a little bit, is that I really like such an indication of where the story's going. And while we hear that it's a tragedy, I don't think that first issue leaves me with any kind of like, oh, this shoe's about to drop. This might happen. This is going on. Like, there's not like a villain that's established. There's not like an implication of like what his trial is going to be. We seem to know he's going to have a trial that's upcoming. And by trial, I don't mean like a court trial. I mean like a story trial. But it does, it doesn't, it it sets something up, but I don't feel like it really like implies what the future of the story is going to be, other than the opening page saying it's a tragedy. But to me, it does feel like it's almost missing that like uh what I'm sure the second issue delivers on, which is more like here's what the journey is that I'm on. Here's what I need to stop, here's who I need to save, here's what I need to fix, whatever that is. And maybe I'm missing something. If you can if you guys remember, like, oh no, it does this, or maybe I have such a great point that you guys are like, oh no.

SPEAKER_03 33:45

I think what it does. I think what it does is like the walls are closing in on Dave, you can tell. He's spinning. No, I think what it does do is it like it the book the the book is really about at least in the first issue, the push and pull between like there's people who want you to be a superhero, there's people who want you to be a politician, there's also people who don't believe you can do either thing. You know, we have uh the opening scene with the reporter where it's like you're so bad at like talking to this reporter, like you have no, you have no media training, you have no Riz, like you're like so bad at this. And then he goes to deal with the the guy uh who's from Albany. Yeah, again, it's also very interesting because like a lot of Zoran Mamdanis would talk about like, oh, how are you gonna get things done with Albany? So that was on my mind during that scene. Um, where the where you know this guy tries to blackmail him, and then he's like, You can't blackmail me, I have superpowers, I will ruin your life. You're like, well, he's just picked a fight with the state of New York, so that seems like it's probably gonna be a problem. Uh, and then something's going on with his buddy Kremlin. Kremlin wants him to like knock off this political crap and become a superhero again. And you get the sense that like Kremlin might take on some malevolent needs to make that happen. But like the big thing for me is like, this guy is not on stable footing. He maybe didn't get elected just based purely on his like ethics and his vision. He even says on the first page, which you know it brought me right back to the early 2000s. People blame me for George W. Bush in the flight suit on the air carrier. People blame me for Arnold Schwarzenegger becoming president. Like, you know, this is a guy where it's like, hey, like, are you actually gonna be good at this just because you did this benevolent thing? And then how benevolent is was that thing? Because, you know, as the series goes on, at one point there is a conspiracy theory that because he can talk to machines, maybe he was involved in the whole thing in the first place. Yeah, um, but yeah, to me, like there is no like villain at the end who's who's like, I'm gonna get you. But there is a lot of plot threads of like, I think this could go really poorly. Yeah, like I can see how the the the different angles that might ruin his life.

SPEAKER_00 35:51

Well, this this brings up something that I had wanted to mention earlier. One of the most brilliant parts of that issue, I think, uh, is that Brian K. Vaughn has him save one tower. Yeah. He doesn't save them both. Yeah. And that's a part of like like A, it makes such a clean visual with the one you know, Memorial Light and the one building. Yeah. But also it sets up this you can do as much as you possibly can and still have massive failure and loss. Well, and which is a theme that goes on with the this idea that like you know, he can try and try and he can actually do some good things, but there's always the stuff that you just can't get your hands around. Yeah, you know.

SPEAKER_01 36:42

I think to what Dave was saying a bit with it is I feel like it's it's kind of like the the the Hickman school of like early like uh starting a run, which is a lot of like I'm setting up pieces. I'm putting a piece over here, and I'm putting a piece over here, and I'm putting something over here. And you can kind of start to maybe connect the dots of how these pieces will go wrong. Yes. But I do feel like this issue ends without like fully having a start to what his story is going to be.

SPEAKER_00 37:09

I think that's a really interesting point because I I a hundred percent see what you're saying, because one thing that I talk to writers about when they're putting together their first issue is like you want the reader to not know what's going to happen in issue two, but have an idea of what issue two is. Yeah. And just reading this first issue, if you were to say, okay, you've read this first issue, now what happens in the second issue? It is a little difficult to be like, well, like he's gonna do more mare stuff. Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_03 37:37

Like it's not gonna happen. Totally. That to me is part of the something else I actually like about the comic book, is called pilot. And like it it literally feels like a pilot in the sense where, like, hey, if we only got this issue, you would be left on the cliffhanger of like, what's the rest of this world? Like, but like it kind of does tell you like full, complete character piece in a way. And I I I looked into this going through the the book today. The the the second issue is not part two of an opening story arc, the second issue is part one of a story. So what they're saying with this book is like, this is the opening, this is the first story, yeah, and now we're going into the next story, which I'm like I really admire, and something I miss in comics a little bit, and it's something I credit Vertigo with a lot. Um, and this book wasn't originally published by Vertigo, but Brian K. Von had worked at Vertigo previously on um Why the Last Man. He'd also done a run on Swamp thing, which was not as well received, which I think is also an important part of his journey. But um that first issue, it feels like what most full first full arcs feel like, and I think that's so important. Like, give people as much as you can on the first issue, otherwise, they're not gonna come back. When I think of like the history of a vertigo first issue, I think of things like Preacher, Scalped, Why, Hunter Bullets, like these books, these books where it's like it gives you every single thing you want and more, and like you're you're you're you're craving to come back, where some modern comics, not Department of Truth, but some modern comics, like I'm like, you didn't get to why I should stay here until the end of issue four. And I left already. Yeah, yeah. Um, but that is not that is so far from the case with with this book for me.

SPEAKER_01 39:13

I think both of these comics do are are very much a pilot in the way you're saying. And in some ways, and I I don't use this in a negative way, in some ways they're almost prologues to the story. It's like, you know, what a pilot does is it is of a TV show traditionally is it establishes the status quo, right? If your status quo is about like a dental office where we're watching the new dentist join and meeting the people he's gonna be interacting with and the rest of the season is their interactions, right? And both of these are establishing the setting and the world and the characters that are going to go on those journeys, but I don't know if they start the journey fully as much as it's just like it it gets us to the starting line in an interesting way.

SPEAKER_03 39:56

Can I say a little bit more about the art?

SPEAKER_01 39:58

Um what do you think, Kenny, or not?

SPEAKER_00 40:02

Uh I'll allow it, but watch yourself, Kenny.

SPEAKER_03 40:04

So I love so uh I I just I want to keep talking about uh uh Tony Harris's art on this book. And I also I would love for you to pass me the book because I feel deeply embarrassed. I am forgetting the name of the Inker and the Colorist, and I it would be a mistake. It's better for me to admit, like, guys, I look stupid not remembering their names because they're brilliant people instead of just looking at their names directly. Um but the work that Tony Harris, Tom Feister on Inks, and J.D. Mettler do on colors, also shout out to Jared Fletcher on Letters. It's just impeccable work. And I it's it's there he he has superhero fundamentals, right? Like when the when when but also like he has superhero fundamentals, so everything's dynamic, things work really well, like there's there's action moments that look cool, but there's also things that look radically not cool, like the the like the the uh Great Machine's costume kind of stinks, like you're kind of and like it looks a little weird and it looks homemade, which is a hundred percent is part of the intention. And the jetpack also again looks more practical than it looks cool, and like they're again all these people, whether it's Mitchell, Kremlin, Mitchell's mom, Bradbury, like again, part of it is because Tony uses actual models, but like they look and feel like real people in a way that in other superhero stories or even stories about superheroes done with a bit of subversion, they don't often look like that. The only other person who I can think has pulled this off as well is like you know, Dave Gibbons and Watchmen don't at me online. Uh, where it's like, no, those people like they feel more real. These people, these people feel like they these are real people whose life has been intruded by this superhero plot in a way that I find very effective. And you know, the New York feels very real. We read a lot of comic set in New York. Jake used to work at Marvel. You've seen New York on more com pages than probably any man alive. Like, this is a this feels like a very lived-in, true New York. These people feel real to me, the environments feel real. And again, while never losing, like, you know, a sense of fun, a sense of dynamism, a great acting on Tony's part. And uh again, him and his team, I think just crush it. And like revisiting this, I was just like, man, I I have not given these guys enough flowers since this book ended for their storytelling, their design work. And uh also, quite frankly, like you know, one thing Brian Kivon's lodging for is his dialogue. And sometimes, to be honest with you, great dialogue doesn't read well in comics because the acting on the characters is not there, like it doesn't feel like they're in sync. The dialogue and the acting feel in sync here in a way that's really well done and really, really hard to pull off.

SPEAKER_01 42:35

So, to switch to talking about Department of Truth now, you got something to say? Not yet. You got something to say? I got some thoughts, but you go with yours first, though.

SPEAKER_03 42:44

You're too big. All right.

SPEAKER_01 42:45

So I first want to talk about how this issue just like it the story is just it just propels the reader forward throughout it. Like every page is interesting, every page kind of like puts a question in your head. It gives you just enough information to be wondering about the right things, which I think is so important, right? If you're too vague, then you don't know what to wonder about. You don't know what to think. But if I tell you like half of something, then I know what direction to start thinking. You know, my brain is is aimed. I know what the question is. Where sometimes people want to be vague about what the question is. Don't be vague about the question. Just don't tell me the answer. And this book starts with it is Lee Harvey Oswald right after the shooting, and and Lee's freaking out. It's showing it through these just incredible, uh, and I'll get to Martin Simmons in a second because it's just incredible how this works, but it's showing Lee Harvey Oswald freaking out. And then suddenly the police are asked to leave, and these two figures sit down with Lee and are like, hey, it's just us now. And Lee's like, oh my God, I didn't think it would work. I didn't think it would happen that way. And he starts being like, Did did uh uh what even happened out there? Oh, is it happening to me? Is it happening to me right now? And they're like, Yes, you need to calm down. And then we jump forward to our protagonist, Cole Turner, and went on the present. And Cole is in a car with a secret agent and he's Terrified the secret agent's gonna kill him. You don't know why they're in the car together. You don't know why he thinks he might be killed, but so it's such a fun ride. Uh, she brings him to this old man who, you know, fantastic dialogue here. He's he's really funny and interesting, this old man who's sitting across from Cole. And he basically is asking Cole to explain the events of the last few days. And that takes us to this Flat Earther convention, which again, that's just an interesting place to go. Outside of the context of the rest of the story, being inside of a Flat Earther convention is interesting. I want to hear about these people, I want to see these people. And then what James does a great job of is he's providing just interesting details about these people. It's making it feel real, kind of outside of the context, even of the story. He's just like giving you interesting observations about the way these guys act and think and talk. And as they get into it and he's talking about how they all believe this is real, and it's kind of like, can you believe that? That's kind of crazy that they all believe this is real. Uh, Cole Turner later that night at the convention is uh a man comes up to him, the man knows he's with the FBI and asks him to come with him. And he's brought to kind of the heads of this organization, and they bring him to this kind of more secret meetup of the people that have come to this event. And at this secret meetup, they're all excited to watch this film that they have. And the film, as I said, is an alternate angle to the moon landing that reveals this like extra, this man is like fully like uh fully clothed, not wearing a uh space suit at all, is standing there on the moon, right? And at that point, Cole starts sweating because he's like, oh my gosh, are these freaks right about this stuff? What's happening? He's he's getting terrified, he's getting scared, he doesn't know what's happening. Then they invite him to come on this plane with them and basically like see the edge of the world, right? They they go up, they he can see the earth is flat, he can see the edge of the wor uh world, the you know, we're in a dome, he can he can see that what they believe is true, and he has no idea uh what that means for him. So then uh how that ends is they go to this, like uh they land the plane, and that secret agent we saw in the beginning shoots all those guys because she's shooting the people who are kind of propagating this this conspiracy theory, so they can kind of snuff it out. And then she brings Cole, we meet back up with the present, and the old man is basically explaining, like, no, that's real. The earth's round, I can prove it to you with a laser pointer, it's easy. Uh, that's not important. Uh, you're with us now, you're part of this organization, you're gonna work with us, and it ends with this really fun reveal, and again, it's like an ahistorical reveal that uh this old man is Lee Harvey Oswald, right? So it connects back to the beginning. And at that point, James has set us up with a fun protagonist who's entering a new world, very, you know, pilot of him. He sets us up with this just great, great premise, this great hook of collective belief shapes reality. It actually does that. Things change, and how do you exist and survive in that world? And then this really fun thing of, you know, you might ask, well, wait, so what if people are believing something about you? How does that affect you? And one of our main characters is Lee Harvey Oswald, possibly the man who is centered in one of the biggest conspiracy theories of all time, that that so many people have an opinion and a thought on what happened that day. So we learn right away that Lee Harvey Oswald doesn't really know what happened that day because of all of these people affecting a reality that involves him, which is such a fun way to take that premise and utilize it. And now we're set up that like we're gonna follow a secret agent in that world, which is really exciting. And and just to finish my overall thoughts on this issue is why I think it is a perfect comic book, then is fully on the shoulders of the brilliant Martin Simmons, right? Amazing. Incredible work in this book, uh, in an incredible creative team. And this is a book where like all the time people talk about why a story needs to be a comic. And a lot of the times you're like, I don't know. Like you actually hear the comic, you're like, I like that it's a comic. I don't know that you're utilizing the medium in such a way that this couldn't work somewhere else. And and they're making it into a TV show, I'm sure it's gonna be great, but like they are utilizing the medium of this comic book that in a way that fully, fully elevates the themes that they're talking about, the story itself, because Martin, he's drawing in this kind of dream-like quality, is painting in this kind of dream-like quality that you use a lot of mixed media, it's really fun. And it leaves you never quite sure about what you're looking at on the page in a lot of sequences. So, in this world where reality itself can be kind of vague and it can be unclear what's happening and it can be ever shifting, he paints the world in a way that you, as the reader, get a sense of that from the art itself, you know. And again, the book fully takes advantage of every tool in the arsenal because Adidia Bidikar. Do you want to say that again for you?

SPEAKER_03 48:48

I believe it's Aditya Bidakar. We've worked with that. Aditya, if I got that wrong, I apologize.

SPEAKER_01 48:53

You're one of the best letters in the game. But Aditya Biddicar's lettering here is so fun and it adds so much to the story. I love that like the balloon, it's never quite is never fitting into the outline, you know. It's just creating this like it just furthering that air of like what's true, what's not true, and just I think it adds to the overall package of the book in such a beautiful way. So I do just find this to be really a perfect comic book. I I I actually I I could not even begin to think of a note before this book.

SPEAKER_03 49:24

It is uh I have a couple. No, but I was I was I love the comic book too. I was I had such a delightful time reading the first issue. And again, as someone who's like worked with James, like man, he is just so good, and I'm just so thrilled for him. And again, just every time I read a book and he knocks out the park like this in particular, I'm just like, way to go, dude. Um, and Martin Simmons, I don't want to imagine this book drawn by anybody else. Um, I think the godfather of this kind of like abstract mixed media painted style in American comics is the great Bill Sinkevich. And there have been many people who have tried to draw in that same approach and have failed miserably. It's incredibly hard to do. It's hard to do while being clear and making your storytelling clear, but I think you're dead on the money. The fact that the book is about the abstracting and breaking down of reality and using this abstract art style to sell that, and like it makes you scared, it makes you unsettled, it makes you not sure about what you're looking at. Not only it's unclear, but in a way that's like, did you really see that? Do you believe that's what you really saw? It it's upsetting and and and and wicked. And I think Martin is I do, I think, I think Martin is a wicked book. Martin is an extraordinary talent. I think he crushed it, and James just hits the current moment, which I gotta admit is one of the reasons why I didn't read this book, is because we're spending so much of our regular life arguing about what is still reality, what is still fact, and what is fiction. So I was a little hesitant just because like I we're living that war every day, but the way he treats it in this book is so dead on the money, so brilliant, so well done. That scene you're talking about with the flat earth convention, these where James sums up and being like, these guys believe it, and seeing other people believe this thing that's not true makes them feel better about themselves was incredible.

SPEAKER_01 51:08

I do have a question for you. Wait one second, I want to respond to something for saying that. Yes. When you're talking about James meeting the current moment, I used to have this conversation all the time when I was at the comic shop, and I explained the premise and I would say, so it's X-Files in a world where collective belief shapes reality. If enough people believe something, it becomes true. Almost always the response would be, don't you mean like real life? I know. I'm like, well, yeah, that's what the book's about. That's where he got the idea. That's how real life works. Which I do think like it is a book with something to say, but it says it in such a fun, interesting, artistic, uh, exciting way, you know, where it's just like, I think that's such a point uh in its favor where like you can have a really fun book about uh a guy with a really silly superpower, and things can just be silly and fun, but like it adds to it so much where it's it's fun and silly and exciting, and it it's all meaningful. It all comes together to say something and to kind of force the reader to meditate on this topic uh as we enter this world where people aren't agreeing on baseline truths. It's not about, oh, we accept truths and then we talk about solutions and we might argue there. It's people are not agreeing on just the fabric of reality. And and when that happens in a debate or in a conversation, like it does just completely like start to unravel the audience's mind. They are both debaters who get confused. It's like, well, no, that's true. We know we know that's true. So we're talking about X. And like, I actually don't think that's true, so we have to talk about Y. And it's just this confusing mess, which is the world that the Department of Truth lives in in such an exciting way. What's your big question?

SPEAKER_03 52:39

Uh, my big question uh is you know, uh Oh, he's excited to ask. He's getting excited. So these men have brought comic books to the Flat Earth Convention? Sure. Uh what comic book do you think these men brought to the Flat Earth Convention? You know what? Don't answer that. Um no, it's it's an incredible first issue. I think it's an incredible piece of work. I can see why it's such a runaway success.

SPEAKER_01 53:02

I'm going to I think you're an incredible piece of work.

SPEAKER_03 53:05

I'm gonna I'm gonna like read more of the book, especially now that like you know I've re I've read it. It's so it's hard it was so hard to stop reading when I hit that last page. I was just like, oh, incredible. So the the I would say the the one criticism I have is um well, I I really like the main character, and I really love his job, which is he like investigates like um he studies how like memes are used on the internet by like you know hate groups and how those memes evolve and refract and like become more problematic as they travel. Uh I find him incredibly reactionary in this issue. Like the the situation is interesting and the path he goes on is interesting, and the fact that he keeps saying yes, by the way, don't ever go to a second location. What are you doing? But like the fact that he keeps going on, the the fact that he he can't help himself but to dig deeper into this is the part that made him compelling to me. But still, I found him a little I would I would have liked him to be slightly more reactionary. I think the fact that the uh Lee Harvey Oswald character is so strong even before you know who he is helps balance that out. But like you do feel like you are on a ride from hell, which totally works and is effective for the story, but like I would have liked maybe like a little bit more input from him just in terms of what you see and how he's acting.

SPEAKER_01 54:28

It's funny, I totally understand the point you're making, and I think that it's a reasonable point. And I think that if you were to read the series and you had that note, it would make sense. When we're talking about like the first issue, right? That first unit of story, there is only so much space, right? So like I think that's a deliberate choice from James, where the one thing he wants you to know about that character is like he's not really prepared to do a lot. He's gonna get jerked around and he's gonna have to learn to adapt and change. So when we're talking about like a first issue of a comic book, you know, it's what its actual job is, is to get you to buy that second issue. And where do they use the how do they use the real estate available to them to do that? And I think that James makes the correct choice here of the most interesting thing about this book is the concept, right? Is the concept and the premise that the idea of the world is built around. And focusing his time on that and making sure that's clear and that's understood because we have to exist in that world for the rest of the comic, I think was really smart. And it leaves us in a place where I'm absolutely buying that next unit of story, right? And in that next unit of story, I think it was issue two or three where we get into Cole's backstory, and that moment is where it's finally like, okay, this is now happening. This is the story. And I think that we talk a lot about like story like compression or decompression and how the modern comic has really started to decompress out, where like uh if if if uh I don't want to, I'm gonna pick a character. I'm sorry I'm not hating on any of the comics, but if Spidey's gonna fight Green Goblin, it used to be in an issue or a two-parter, and now it might be in four or five issues, right? Where that fighting's taking place. And I think we understand now, like both of these comics, I don't think tell us a full unit of story. I think they begin a story, I think they start down a path, but they're not giving us like a beginning, middle, and end that then sets up the next uh collection of stories. I think they're very much just they get us to a fun starting line and they tell us everything that we need to know to want to continue down it. So where in Ex Machina, I'm left being like, I don't really know what his journey is going to be. I understand he has to be a mayor and I understand he has to balance superheroes, but I'm not really getting an implication of what is going to come down the pipeline towards him that's gonna force him to try to like fold together those parts of his life, uh, you know, and but I'm getting an understanding that that's what's gonna happen, and then it leaves me with a fun twist of like, and one of the towers is up still. And in this book, I don't think you have a great idea of who Cole is at this moment, but I don't think you need it, and I think it does come later. I and I think that this first issue does use its time wisely in how it sets up the world.

SPEAKER_03 57:07

Totally. Well, uh, and I want to give James another compliment, which is I think he's a tremendous dialogue writer, and I think married with Martin's art here, like the dialogue is really well written, but like not overflowing. Uh, like sometimes like we we quit good dialogue with like, oh, there's a bunch of it, but I think like the dialogue here is very well paced out, really well done, really well executed, and like it feels like I'm watching both a horror movie, but also like watching a great play as well with the interactions between the characters. Like, I just think he knows how to write characters and people interacting tremendously well, and like you know, I have to be invested in these people to like believe this big situation. I do. I think the characters are really well rendered by and large, again, even though I feel like our main character could have been a little more um active in the in the first issue.

SPEAKER_00 57:56

Yeah, I it it's interesting that both of these first issues are kind of two different sides of the same coin. I feel like with X Machina, you've got so much information about the character. Like the whole setup of that first issue is getting to know hundred. Like that's really what it is about, and like a full breadth of him. His again, you're getting the whole origin story, you're getting all of this stuff for him, and you don't but you don't necessarily know what that world is. Whereas the inverse here is that you get so much world intrigue, but you don't really know who it's Cole, right? You don't really know who Cole is until issue two, you start getting a lot more of that. But it is, but both of them do great jobs of building that mystery on either end that make you really want to know what happens in number two. So I think that's i it's interesting seeing the different ways you can actually work that in two issues that I think are really phenomenal. Um and I also want to piggyback off of that comment on uh James's dialogue because I do think there is something he is great at with being funny and hitting some some nice humor notes in what is a very dark story, but also very brilliantly every one of those bits tells you something about the character. Like no you you you couldn't switch around the jokes to different characters, everyone's got such a distinct voice and POV, just really smartly done and really well uh orchestrated. Um and uh I I I also want to praise Martin Simmons art uh as well because when I first started reading the book, I was actually kind of aggravated by it. I I felt like it wasn't letting me in, it wasn't being as clear. And uh I'm glad you brought up Sinkevich because that is something I thought of as well. I've seen so many people try to hit those Sinkevich beats, uh, and seeing that my immediate response was, Oh, this is another guy trying to pull this uh card, trying to to do this thing. But uh, I think we were talking about this off camera, actually, doing things with intention, where like as I read the issue, I start seeing like, oh, this is there is intention here, there is purpose to the way uh and so like by the end of the issue I was in love with it. I was oh like that art is is the perfect choice, and like I would love to talk to James about when that casting happened and how he built that book before, like, did he know it was always gonna be Martin?

SPEAKER_03 1:00:30

I think the the story as I know it is James was developing this book and he was looking for an artist and he knew he wanted someone in that kind of vein, and it was the great Matthew Rosenberg who's like, Hey man, do you know about Martin Simmons? I think Matthew turned James onto Martin. I could be horribly mistaken, both those guys have my cell phone number. They're free to call me a knucklehead. Uh, but you know, this is something I could say because I know the guy, but like James is a great student of comics. Like uh he's read so much, he's studied from all of the great writers in a way where I think he's like really assembled a pretty killer toolkit by reading so much, and obviously just having written so much, like you know, I see these skills where I'm like, Oh, I remember when he got this one or that when that one really came together. But like he this this comic is really all of the great skills a comic book writer and artist should have on display, and it is a really tremendous piece of work. Um, and it deserves all the praise and success it has. And uh even just looking at the design of the cover, man, it's just such a fully realized piece of work, and it really deserves the to be celebrated.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:36

Yeah, I think the the writing and art working in conjunction on that book uh is at a level that I don't think you see very often at all, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:44

And all of that together is why like I think it gets praise. I think it deserves way more. Like, I truly think that like like you two, both guys who love comics, haven't read it yet, right? Like, and that's that's not unusual for people not to have read every comic, but like that's that's something I find a lot with this book that always surprises me because like for me, I'm like, it is a perfect example of what a comic book should be, especially a modern comic book, but any comic book. It is such a fantastic like I I think actually, like this is gonna be an overused phrase, but like actually a triumph of the medium, right? It hits the modern times, it hits it, you know, it comes out at the exact right moment it needs to come out, which is something it can do because of the comic timeline and how publishing schedules work, right? It utilizes the art to tell the story in such a way that it just I can't imagine the book without Martin, as you already said, like it's it's a different book entirely. Like Martin brings such a sense of prestige to the book, right? Like it feels weighty, it feels important with his art. Um and yeah, just getting to like dip in month in and month out and have him like get more and more kind of reactionary to things that are happening and getting some ripped out of the headlines moments in the comic as we move forward with it. Like, yeah, I think it's just it's truly fantastic. And I wish more people were reading it.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:55

Sabrina one thing I would say about both of these, and it's the highest compliment I can give is like, while these are both great comics for comic book readers, I'd also feel very comfortable giving these two people who are like, I'd like to give some comics a try. What's like the best of the best? And I would happily give either of these or both of these out.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:11

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, Department of Truth is absolutely one I've put into the hands of everyone I know that doesn't read comics because I think it's just an incredible example of what people can do with it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:22

I guess you're friends with a lot of people on the JFK Reddit.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:26

Yeah, I'm friends with the come here.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:27

You can't say that to me.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:34

It's time for final judgments. Um I will say um these were both incredible issues. Uh I had read Ex Machina years and years ago. It was great to revisit it. Uh, I had not read Department of Truth. I'm a big uh James Tennan fan. Uh I had read a bunch of his stuff. Department of Truth was one where I missed the beginning, and so I had it on my I'll catch up to it later lists. Uh, I was so excited to go back uh and actually pick that up. So uh I will also say uh, Jake, you completely stepped on my bit. I had a whole thing at the end where I was going to say that the actual best first issue was whatever be a girl. Uh I love that first issue. I think it is killer. Yeah, it's a great first issue. But I have to say, one of my favorite things that a comic book can ever do uh is toss me around, unmoor me, and then bring me back. And Department of Truth. You bastard!

SPEAKER_02 1:04:36

What was the movie?

SPEAKER_01 1:04:39

I just unmoored you were going with the time thing. I meant to talk about the time thing earlier. I thought you were talking about that. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:43

Well, the time thing there, too. Like that was something I'd wanted to say about Department of Truth as well, is the way that it jumps through time and the art is vague. That was what made me really click in. Was I was like, oh, this is all purposeful because it's vague enough that you're uncertain, but you're never lost in time. You're never lost with how that story's flowing. Um but again, like I I with the art, with the story the whole time, I was unsure, and then at the end it all came together so beautifully. I thought, and it made me go back and reread it again instantly. Um extraordinary first issue. James, I'm sorry I hadn't read it.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:21

Well, best first issue. Uh accepting the word on behalf of James Tinian, Marn Simmons, and Adidia Biddekar is Jake Williams. I just want to say thank you to Jake Thomas. I now believe you to be one of our finest editors. I now believe you to be one of our greatest comics minds. Dave, better luck next time. No, killing me with kindness, you can't do that.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:48

I shook his hand.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:50

You discussed me. But I think it's an incredible first issue. And not just, I don't just think that. You all have to think that now as well. Department of Truth is the Best first issue of all time.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:04

All right. Well, this has been the first issue of superlatives. Obviously, the best first episode of a podcast ever. This is it. We're never getting better than this. We're ending it all. We'll see you next time.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:23

Hey, thanks for listening. If you liked hearing our thoughts on other comics, you should check out our comics. Available at any local comic book store or online at idwpublishing.com.